Barry Larkin - Most Overrated Player to Ever Play the Game
Philip B. Mikesell
wrote:
> Barry Larkin is the most overrated player to ever play the game - at
> any level!
I disagree, for many reasons.
> First of all, don't Hall of Famers bat .300+ for their career? Well,
> Barry is a sub .300 career hitter.
Ok, now, check your stats for every hall-of-famer. See any career BAs
there below .300? I have a hard time believing that almost all "Hall of
Famers bat .300+ for their career." There are a lot of stats more
important than BA. Take a look at OBP, Slugging Percentage, etc. Take a
look at strikeouts vs. walks. I think you'll see Barry has put up some
impressive numbers.
> Check his stats thru ESPNET. He has only played a full season (150+
> games) a couple of years and one of those years he led all shortstops
> in errors! And I have seen balls hit between his legs in Cincy where
> he wasn't charged with an error!
Could you give any specific examples where balls were "hit between his
legs in Cincy where he wasn't charged with an error?" Could you come up
with some stat about how many double plays Barry has been involved in
compared with other shortstops in the league?
> He has made the all-star team on at least two occasions because the
> player voted in was injured and Barry made it cause he was number two.
> And I also remember when the Reds were a poor team and Barry was
> chosen only cause each team must be represented in the all-star game!
> I call that, "All-star by default."
Which year are you talking about when the "Reds were a poor team and Barry
was chosen only cause each team must be represented in the all-star game?"
> I recall two seasons consecutive when Barry started the month of April
> batting .600+. Well, both seasons he sat out the last game of the
> season to preserve a .301 average. Are you aware that the last person
> to hit .400 (Ted Williams) was hitting .401 going in to the last day
> and played both games of a double hitter and finished .406?
And how many players these days compare favorably with Ted Williams? Ted
Williams is obviously one of the best pure hitters the game has ever
seen. I don't think you'll find many people arguing that point.
> Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
> whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
> bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
> he gets a sacrifice! Nice way to build that batting average!
Do you honestly believe that Barry is the one solely responsible for
determining when he will swing away and when he will lay down a bunt?
What, then, would be the role for the third base coach? Do you notice how
often Barry is successful at advancing the runner? Do you notice how
often he is successful at both advancing the runner AND beating it out?
> I could go on and on and on but .....
So could I.
> It comes down to, the media - the Marty Brennemans, etc... try to
> create a superstar so that the fans will come out.
I disagree, once again. Barry is popular because he is a great
ballplayer. He is actively involved in the community, and does not
embarass the team with foolhardy pranks or drugs or alcohol problems or
family problems. He is a class act, and represents the Reds well.
> harley
Phil Mikesell
Jeff Granger
> Barry Larkin is the most overrated player to ever play the game - at
> any level!
Remember Brien Taylor?
> First of all, don't Hall of Famers bat .300+ for their career? Well,
> Barry is a sub .300 career hitter.
Yeah, .297. And no, all Hall of Famers did not hit .300 (Johnny Bench,
.267) I'm not claiming that Barry is a certain HOFer, but his numbers look
pretty good compared to Phil Rizzuto and some other Shortstops in the
Hall. There are other criteria for enshrinement besides Batting Average.
> Check his stats thru ESPNET. He has only played a full season (150+
> games) a couple of years and one of those years he led all shortstops
> in errors! And I have seen balls hit between his legs in Cincy where
> he wasn't charged with an error!
Wrong, he played 151 games in 1988 and 158 in 1990.
> He has made the all-star team on at least two occasions because the
> player voted in was injured and Barry made it cause he was number two.
> And I also remember when the Reds were a poor team and Barry was
> chosen only cause each team must be represented in the all-star game!
> I call that, "All-star by default."
Ozzie Smith has been voted in based on sentiment for several years now.
> I recall two seasons consecutive when Barry started the month of April
> batting .600+. Well, both seasons he sat out the last game of the
> season to preserve a .301 average. Are you aware that the last person
> to hit .400 (Ted Williams) was hitting .401 going in to the last day
> and played both games of a double hitter and finished .406?
Actually, Ted Williams was batting .3995 going in to the last day, which
would have rounded up to .400, but he went 6 for 8 in the double header.
Not that this is relevant, of course. If you're going to try to use
statistics to build your pointless case against Barry, at least use
accurate ones. (Barr has hit .301 only once, in 1990)
> Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
> whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
> bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
> he gets a sacrafice! Nice way to build that batting average!
Amazing, now you can read minds!
> I could go on and on and on but .....
So could I.
> It comes down to, the media - the Marty Brenamans, etc... try to
> create a superstar so that the fans will come out.
I think all the post season awards (team MVP, Silver Slugger, Sporting
News All-Star Team, Roberto Clemente Award, etc.) Prove that he is a
legitimate Superstar. I don't know about other Reds' fans, but there isn't
a shortstop in the Majors I would trade for Barry Larkin.
> Enough said.
Enough Said.
Jeff
Jeff Granger
Remember Brien Taylor?
accurate ones. (Barry has hit .301 only once, in 1990)
BRubin6977
>Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
>bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
he gets a sacrafice! Nice way to build that batting average!
>
>It comes down to, the media - the Marty Brenamans
==============================
You are nuts. Do actually "watch" baseball? Or do you just focus on
anything "bad" a player may do?
As for the "sacrifice" thing, don't a lot of batters do that? (other than
clean-up/power hitters) I think so. You are making a pretty outlandish
accusation here.
What about the Gold Glove last year? Irregardless, he led the
position--period. You cannot argue that.
And how about last night there chumps!@!!!!!! 2 HR'S!! 5 RBI's!!! And he
has roared back from an injury and a basement batting average to be a
league leader in stolen bases, bat well above .300, 30+ RBI's, most double
plays (or close Larkin/Boone), fewest errors at position (or one of top
two), etc..,
"I" could go on and on, but..., when's the last time your favorite
short-stop won the World Series? Huh?
I think Marty Brennamen may know just a bit more than you when it comes to
professional baseball. I see no reason to dish either one of them, they
are class-acts, and classic baseball people--both hall of famers to be.
Dustin Moss
>
>Barry Larkin is the most overrated player to ever play the game - at
>any level!
>
>Barry is a sub .300 career hitter.
>
You are messed in the head man! It is widely know that Barry is one of the
most UNDERRATED players in baseball. He's always taken a back seat to Ozzie
Smith in All-Star voting. The ONLY reason is popularity. Not taking away
anyting from Ozzie, but Larkin has outplayed him for the past 5 years.
>Check his stats thru ESPNET. He has only played a full season (150+
>games) a couple of years and one of those years he led all shortstops
>in errors! And I have seen balls hit between his legs in Cincy where
>he wasn't charged with an error!
>
I have NEVER seen one go through his legs. Most of his errors come from
trying to make an amazing throw for a DP or throwing a runner out at 1st.
>He has made the all-star team on at least two occasions because the
>player voted in was injured and Barry made it cause he was number two.
>And I also remember when the Reds were a poor team and Barry was
>chosen only cause each team must be represented in the all-star game!
>I call that, "All-star by default."
I call that the Ozzie Smith Syndrome you idiot. Pay attention!
>I recall two seasons consecutive when Barry started the month of April
>batting .600+. Well, both seasons he sat out the last game of the
>season to preserve a .301 average. Are you aware that the last person
>to hit .400 (Ted Williams) was hitting .401 going in to the last day
>and played both games of a double hitter and finished .406?
Excuse me, but Ted Williams was a hitting GOD. any one player who comes
close to that...Tony Gwynn is the most consistant hitter in current baseball,
but Barry is one of the best ALL AROUND players. And besides, Barry's average
has consistantly risen over his career. He will be know as one of the if not
THE best hitting short stop ever when he retires!
>Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
>whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
>bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
>he gets a sacrafice! Nice way to build that batting average!
>
>I could go on and on and on but .....
....But you'd waste everyone's time.
>It comes down to, the media - the Marty Brenamans, etc... try to
>create a superstar so that the fans will come out.
I won't comment on Breneman...
>Enough said.
Thank You!
>
>harley
>
And why did you reply to your own message in a Pro-Barry Larkin
message? Are you trying to get people riled? Well it's working!
-D
Harley D. Parr
>In article <3v6rjt$i...@eri2.erinet.com> hp...@erinet.com (Harley D. Parr) writes:
>>Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
>>whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
>>bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
>>he gets a sacrafice! Nice way to build that batting average!
> Uhhhh, it's also called moving the runner into scoring position
>to help the team. You're not serious, are you?
>Just Dave
When sacraficing, you show the bunt to get the fielders to commit.
Barry has a sneaky way of doing it! And I've seen him do it when they
are down 4 runs late in the game! And I also noticed that he does it
when the opposing pitcher is a tough pitcher for Barry to hit! Start
watching, you'll see!
harley
William David Salisbury
1--The shortstop that Larkin has finished second to, by the way
is Ozzie Smith. No slouch.
2--In the all-star broadcast of 94, the announcers (NBC
guys--actually Bob Costas--with no Cincy bias) stated that
Smith's election to the game was obviously due to his great
career. Costas further said that it is a testament to Smith's
longevity and greatness, in that, although other shortstops, like
Barry Larkin, are now superior, that the fans still vote Smith in.
3--I saw a St.Louis-Cincy game before I moved to Calgary. Larkin
simply outplayed Smith. He has greater range, a stronger
arm, and is a better hitter. If he makes more errors than
others, it is usually because he runs down a ball that some
other shortstops wouldn't even get to. Dave Concepcion had this
same problem (along with the rather generous (to Larry Bowa)
scorekeeping in Philadelphia.
4--As to his hitting, if the worst problem the Reds have is that
their shortstop is only hitting 290 or so, they are truly a
blessed team.
5--Larkin is popular because he is a solid player (your ravings
have shown no evidence whatsoever), he is involved in the
community, and he represents the team well. A real asset.
6--If you really are looking for a player to call "over-rated",
you would make better use of your time going after Deon Sanders.
IMHO
Regards-
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Dave Salisbury, Ph D Candidate (MIS) *
* University of Calgary Faculty of Management--MIS Area *
* 2500 University Drive NW, Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2N 1N4 *
* Phone: 220-8602 (w) 284-0409 (h) 282-0095 (Fax) *
* E-mail: wdsa...@acs.ucalgary.ca *
* Home Page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~wdsalisb/ *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Brian Van Hook
to start those All-Star games, and only started when the fan favorite, Ozzie
Smith, was hurt. Keep in mind that unknowledgeable fans (like you, apparently)
vote in the undeserving people like Ozzie, then the managers put the deserving
Larkin on the team. Then when Smith's hurt, Larkin starts.
As for his hitting, yes, Larkin will go into a slump once in a while. But he
has really learned to hit. He has been hot all year, except for the three weeks
immediately after he was hit by a pitch and his thumb was torn apart.
And he played.
Larkin's meaning to the Reds is immeasurable. He's the type of leader most
teams don't have. Like the Chicago Cubs. You rag on him for sacrificing? Hey,
the guy wants to win. How many other No. 3 hitters in baseball do you know who
would be WILLING to bunt a runner over if it helps the team win.
As for his defense, I don't know of many official scorers who would give a
batter a base hit on a ball that goes directly through a fielder's legs, but I
wasn't there so I can't possibly know what you're talking about. But I don't
think you do, either.
Robb Adams
: In article <3v6rjt$i...@eri2.erinet.com> hp...@erinet.com (Harley D. Parr) writes:
: >Start noticing (as I do) that when Barry is working on his average,
: >whenever there is a runner at first and less than two outs, he will
: >bunt. Why?, cause if he beats it out he gets a hit and if he doesn't
: >he gets a sacrafice! Nice way to build that batting average!
: Uhhhh, it's also called moving the runner into scoring position
: to help the team. You're not serious, are you?
: Just Dave
I don't think this guy knows too much about baseball. Maybe he's from
Chicago also! Where's Mary now!!!!
Robb
Matthew D Eayre
Harley D. Parr <hp...@erinet.com> wrote:
>v...@lvsun.com (Brian Van Hook) wrote:
>
>>Larkin's meaning to the Reds is immeasurable. He's the type of leader most
>>teams don't have. Like the Chicago Cubs. You rag on him for sacrificing? Hey,
>>the guy wants to win. How many other No. 3 hitters in baseball do you know who
>>would be WILLING to bunt a runner over if it helps the team win.
>
>up the runner, he is bunting for a base hit with the assurance that he
>won't be charrged with an ab if he gets thrown
>out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that too hard to
>understand??????????? Wake up!!!
>
I always thought it was sorta obvious when a batter is bunting to sacrifice
and when he is bunting for a base hit and that the scorer takes that in
account. I recall listening to one game, where a batter bunted and advanced
the runner, but Marty said it was clear he was bunting for a base hit and
therefore it wasn't scored as a sacrifice.
Later,
Matt
--
Matthew D Eayre I'm not not really this stupid;
mea...@iastate.edu I just pretend to be on the net.
Harley D. Parr
You are exactly 100% correct Matt, however, these official scorers are
nothing more than baseball writters and they, much like you, like
Barry Larkin and want to see his stats look good. This is what cost
Hal Morris a batting title a couple seasons ago when, on the last game
of the season the scorer had to give Barry an error (which was
obvious) or give Terry Pendleton a hit. They chose the later and
Terry edged out Hal for the title!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Perhaps I should publish my own newspaper cause I think the public
should be aware of what is going on. I would write to the baseball
commissioner, but there isn't one!
harley
William Vaughan
Harley D. Parr <hp...@erinet.com> wrote:
>mea...@iastate.edu (Matthew D Eayre) wrote:
>>In article <3vc43l$3...@eri2.erinet.com>,
>>Harley D. Parr <hp...@erinet.com> wrote:
>>>v...@lvsun.com (Brian Van Hook) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Larkin's meaning to the Reds is immeasurable. He's the type of leader most
>>>>teams don't have. Like the Chicago Cubs. You rag on him for sacrificing?
>>>
>>>You're not getting my point and my point is he is not bunting to move
>>>up the runner, he is bunting for a base hit with the assurance that he
>>>won't be charrged with an ab if he gets thrown
And you know this how? The coaches told you? "That damn Larkin - I told him
to advance the runner and there he goes trying to get on base too! Thats
definitely too much hustle on this team!". How do you know he's bunting for a
base hit - if he can do that and get the runner over, more power to him - you
have no idea whether or not he's trying to pad his stats and to assume that is
a sign of bias.
>>I always thought it was sorta obvious when a batter is bunting to sacrifice
>>and when he is bunting for a base hit and that the scorer takes that in
>>account. I recall listening to one game, where a batter bunted and advanced
>>the runner, but Marty said it was clear he was bunting for a base hit and
>>therefore it wasn't scored as a sacrifice.
>
>You are exactly 100% correct Matt, however, these official scorers are
>nothing more than baseball writters and they, much like you, like
>Barry Larkin and want to see his stats look good.
And again, you know this how -some great conspiracy to make Barry look good -
Barry plays half his games on the road - the number of times he has to bunt in
a year is small compared to the number of times he would swing away. *IF*
Larkin were trying this (which you still can't prove) I would suggest it would
at *best* improve his batting average by .0005 - hardly padding the stat. Now
if these crooked scores took ground outs and gave Barry a hit you'd have
something.
>This is what cost Hal Morris a batting title a couple seasons ago when, on the
>last game of the season the scorer had to give Barry an error (which was
>obvious) or give Terry Pendleton a hit. They chose the later and
>Terry edged out Hal for the title!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I'm sure Hal blamed it all on Larkin. Of course, some other scorer in
Atlanta probably was biased for Terry, so he doesn't deserve it either.
Picking out one play and saying it won the batting crown for Terry, when he had
many, many other at bats is absolutely silly. And what makes you so sure it
was an error on Barry - from your rantings here its oblivious that your biased
against him, so why should we trust you when some of us never saw the play.
>Perhaps I should publish my own newspaper cause I think the public
>should be aware of what is going on.
We'll call it "Biased Baseball Weekly" You and Misra can get together and
berate teams and players you don't like using assumptions and biased and
absolutely no logic.
>I would write to the baseball commissioner, but there isn't one!
I'm sure if there was one, he'd get as big of a laugh out of this as most of us
here.
Later
Will
Harley D. Parr
the sports columnist in the local paper printed the exact thing that i
said above and he is truely a barry larking fan. this one at bat did
it cause it was terry's last at bat and when approaching the plate the
announcers said that he needs a hit to win the batting title. it's
that simple!
Harley D. Parr
>: Just Dave
>Robb
i have forgotten more about baseball than most of you will ever know!
harley
William David Salisbury
: i have forgotten more about baseball than most of you will ever know!
This would explain much.
Regards--
Barry Mulvihill
>>understand??????????? Wake up!!!
Excuse me, do you run a 1-900 psychic line? You sure do seem to be aw
strong at reading minds. You know what Barry Larkin's motivations are
amazing. And gee, I always thought he was in it to win ballgames. Oh
that'll teach him to give 100% all the time.
--
"There is no problem, that cannot be solved, by the proper application
explosives."
Unknown Military Gentleman
Mike
of many in the HALL OF FAME who have better numbers than Larkin. The
only SS in the league you can make a case for is Ripkin, and even
there, Larkin has more range and a higher BA, although Ripkin has
played in more games, and hit more HR's.
Harley D. Parr
>In article <3vc43l$3...@eri2.erinet.com> hp...@erinet.com (Harley D. Parr) writes:
>>>Larkin's meaning to the Reds is immeasurable. He's the type of leader most
>>>teams don't have. Like the Chicago Cubs. You rag on him for sacrificing? Hey,
>>>the guy wants to win. How many other No. 3 hitters in baseball do you know who
>>>would be WILLING to bunt a runner over if it helps the team win.
>>You're not getting my point and my point is he is not bunting to move
>>up the runner, he is bunting for a base hit with the assurance that he
>>won't be charrged with an ab if he gets thrown
>>out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that too hard to
>>understand??????????? Wake up!!!
> You're a fraud. Who's your team and how many times has
>Larkin beaten them with his bat and/or his glove? Take your sour grapes
>elsewhere....Larkin has been widely recognized as the best all around
>SS in baseball for the last 5 years.
>Just Dave
That is all perspective or opinion - nothing to back it up. One of my
previous articles best describes it: "All Star by Default"
harley
G1JJ
NL's MVP this year. OBA of .400, SLG near .500, leads the leagu in
steals, 4 errors all year. Good influence. Remember that the Reds won a
lot of ballgames without Sanders and Gant. Barry had a lot to do with
that.
The best SS in baseball. And I'm a pirates fan. Jay Bell aint no Barry.
Harley D. Parr
that "most stolen bases" can be misleading. i.e. Dieon got hurt
stealing third base late in the game with a 7-2 lead. Meaning people
steal bases today to pad their stats, most of the time in meaningless
situations!
hdp
G1JJ
I wish Barry did that. The other night, he was on first in an easy steal
situation. He didn't because the Reds were way up. Barry will never pad
his stolen base stats for one good reason. He has brittle hamstrings, and
he's not stupid enough to risk another injury oin a useless stolen base.
Every one of his stolen bases is important. And more importantly, he
steals at a 90-95% rate. Talk about deceiving SB stats? Look at Brett
Butler when he steals 40 and gets caught 23 times. That's deceiving,
becuase he costs his team more than he gives them...
Justin Klei - coop
Hey Harley,
Why don't you do a study for us and figure out how many "meaningless"
steals the often selfish Barry Larkin had and, as Bill Cunningham on
WLW says, "give us a full report!"
Justin
PhilAGray
Though Barry Larkin sometimes is looked to to be more than he really is,
he pales in comparison with an ex-Red named Eric Davis as the most
overrated human being to ever play the game of baseball.
Phil
BRubin6977
What is it about Cincinnati fans that they constantly bad-mouth every good
player to come down the pipe in the city?
Bunch of conservative babies in this city.
Can't people just say that Barry Larkin is one of the better shortstops to
ever play the game and leave it at that for now?
To deny that is an obvious sign of ignorance and/or prejudice.
Please, name one better shortstop over the past 5 years at least? I beg
you too--at least statistically--although # of games played in the early
'90's may be a problem--but not much else--140 games a year and a World
Championship (or two?) is fine with me.
Well he stole third against Atlanta the other night in a "needy"
situation, but I guess no one mentions that.
He leads the NL in stolen bases--but no one mentions that. (give me a
break you idiots who put down the league leader in stolen bases--who has
also been injured for a significant amount of time this year as
well!-injured no more than Barry Bonds, Bonilla, and others really).
4 errors? Not too bad considering the spotty starting pitching to say the
least.
Uh, ..315 average currently? 11 HR's?
I guess he is overrated, yeah, he sucks.
I'd rather have Shawn Dunston, Jay Bell, Kevin Stocker, or Royce Clayton.
(phhhh! Yeah right, give me a break you putzes who dog Barry--I can't
believe i'm even spending this much time on the subject, just wait til
October when your team is at home watching Barry and the boys on TV.
I guess he needs to do backflips to truly impress people.
Harley D. Parr
>What is it about Cincinnati fans that they constantly bad-mouth every good
>player to come down the pipe in the city?
>Bunch of conservative babies in this city.
>Can't people just say that Barry Larkin is one of the better shortstops to
>ever play the game and leave it at that for now?
>To deny that is an obvious sign of ignorance and/or prejudice.
>Please, name one better shortstop over the past 5 years at least? I beg
>you too--at least statistically--although # of games played in the early
>'90's may be a problem--but not much else--140 games a year and a World
>Championship (or two?) is fine with me.
First of all, make that 120 games a year! Check the ESPN player
profiles. And because there is no better shortstop the past 5 years -
and that is not me saying that - doesn't make him good! The league is
weak at short!
>Well he stole third against Atlanta the other night in a "needy"
>situation, but I guess no one mentions that.
Sure, but is there a good catcher in the game today who can throw out
base runners? Maybe Piazza. When Bench was there, you also had great
arms like Steve Yeager and Gary Carter to mention a few. Today?
nobody!
>He leads the NL in stolen bases--but no one mentions that. (give me a
>break you idiots who put down the league leader in stolen bases--who has
>also been injured for a significant amount of time this year as
>well!-injured no more than Barry Bonds, Bonilla, and others really).
>4 errors? Not too bad considering the spotty starting pitching to say the
>least.
The point I have tried to make on numerous occasions is, becuase the
media as made him a star, the official scorers don't give him errors!
They simply give the batter a hit!
>Uh, ..315 average currently? 11 HR's?
And they give him hits when the other teams kick the ball!
>I guess he is overrated, yeah, he sucks.
That's right!
Steve Ball
(responding to BRubin):
Harley,
Are you really an idiot, or just a pest? Next you're going to argue
that there are no good hitters today, because Cy Young & Christy
Matteson are dead anyway. And let me guess, there are no good 1st
baseman, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman and so on, right?
Get a life - You are just lame & tiring. Perhaps you might try a
differemt NG that doesn't yet know what a moron you are (YET).
Steve in AZ
William Vaughan
In article <40if3t$7...@eri2.erinet.com>,
>
>>Please, name one better shortstop over the past 5 years at least? I beg
>>you too--at least statistically--although # of games played in the early
>>'90's may be a problem--but not much else--140 games a year and a World
>>Championship (or two?) is fine with me.
>
>First of all, make that 120 games a year! Check the ESPN player
>profiles. And because there is no better shortstop the past 5 years -
>and that is not me saying that - doesn't make him good! The league is
>weak at short!
Uncle Dad let you used his account again - you continue to amaze us with your
total lack of knowledge about baseball and Barry Larkin in particular - why
don't you watch him for a little bit before you make such stupid claims. have
you watched every shortstop in the league - what critera are you using to show
that the NL is weak at short - the statistics don't back you up - check out
stats from ftp yourself (if you can figure out how to do it) - the NL is as
deep at short as the AL and a case could be made that we are stronger.
>>Well he stole third against Atlanta the other night in a "needy"
>>situation, but I guess no one mentions that.
>
>Sure, but is there a good catcher in the game today who can throw out
>base runners? Maybe Piazza. When Bench was there, you also had great
>arms like Steve Yeager and Gary Carter to mention a few. Today?
>nobody!
>
Again check the stats you waste of oxygen - runner are being thrown out at rate
comparable to any in the past years - why don't you do some research before
talking out your ass - and just because you claim everybody else sucks doesn't
decrease Barry's talent (ergo just because A, B doesn't follow - take a logic
class you putz).
>
>>4 errors? Not too bad considering the spotty starting pitching to say the
>>least.
>
>The point I have tried to make on numerous occasions is
And never gave any conclusive proof of
> becuase the
>media as made him a star, the official scorers don't give him errors!
>They simply give the batter a hit!
First off, anyone knows that errors aren't used to measure defense - DA and ZRs
are and Barry is near the top in both catagories. These aren't subjected to
offical scorers. Secondly, there are four offical scores at games - they must
decide amongst themselves and they aren't the same every night - and aren't
members of the media - so unless you have glaring evidence that all these
scorers on the road and at home are crooked I suggest you refrain from making
yourself look more the fool.
>
>>Uh, ..315 average currently? 11 HR's?
>
>And they give him hits when the other teams kick the ball!
>
Again evidence instead of your waste of bandwidth - you can't claim this cause
if it was happening to Barry, why aren't other media stars getting this
treatment - then if they are, why isn't it apparent to everyone except you -
from your post, I refuse to believe your brain functions properly.
>>I guess he is overrated, yeah, he sucks.
>
>That's right!
>
What happen Harley, did someone who looks like Barry Larkin steal your
grilfriend - or maybe your boyfriend? Get some evidence and come back when you
can defend you position in a sane manner.
later
Will
Brian Van Hook
And while you're at it, harley, take your time. Months if that's what it takes.
BRubin6977
Willie,
You misquoted me!!! You included my post along with that idiot who dishes
Barry Larkin for every possible, ridiculous reason!
I love Larkin!!! What gives?
BRubin6977
>First of all, make that 120 games a year! Check the ESPN player
profiles. And because there is no better shortstop the past 5 years -
>and that is not me saying that - doesn't make him good! The league is
weak at short!
>
>
================
What? If you are going by that source, you obviously don't know much
anyways--ESPN player profiles? Those are often misquoted and inaccurate I
have found--misleading at times as well--compared to the "official" league
stats which I have seen numerous times.
If there's ANY knock on Larkin, its that he gets injured often. Where's
Ozzie Smith? Jay Bell never gets hurt! Fernandez? Clayton? All have
frequent stints on the DL year to year--with Ozzie out for the year.
Man, that's it, I'm not arguing anymore, its too ridiculous, your just
trying to get a rise of people by ignorantly criticizing a well-liked
player.
Get a life.
Harley D. Parr
>In <40if3t$7...@eri2.erinet.com> hp...@erinet.com (Harley D. Parr) writes
>(responding to BRubin):
>>>Please, name one better shortstop over the past 5 years at least? I
>beg
>>>you too--at least statistically--although # of games played in the
>early
>>>'90's may be a problem--but not much else--140 games a year and a
>World
>>>Championship (or two?) is fine with me.
>>
>>First of all, make that 120 games a year! Check the ESPN player
>>profiles. And because there is no better shortstop the past 5 years -
>>and that is not me saying that - doesn't make him good! The league is
>>weak at short!
>>
>>>Well he stole third against Atlanta the other night in a "needy"
>>>situation, but I guess no one mentions that.
>>
>>Sure, but is there a good catcher in the game today who can throw out
>>base runners? Maybe Piazza. When Bench was there, you also had great
>>arms like Steve Yeager and Gary Carter to mention a few. Today?
>>nobody!
>>
>>>He leads the NL in stolen bases--but no one mentions that. (give me a
>>>break you idiots who put down the league leader in stolen bases--who
>has
>>>also been injured for a significant amount of time this year as
>>>well!-injured no more than Barry Bonds, Bonilla, and others really).
>>
>>>4 errors? Not too bad considering the spotty starting pitching to say
>the
>>>least.
>>
>>The point I have tried to make on numerous occasions is, becuase the
>>media as made him a star, the official scorers don't give him errors!
>>They simply give the batter a hit!
>>
>>>Uh, ..315 average currently? 11 HR's?
>>
>>And they give him hits when the other teams kick the ball!
>>
>>>I guess he is overrated, yeah, he sucks.
>>
>>That's right!
>>
>>>I'd rather have Shawn Dunston, Jay Bell, Kevin Stocker, or Royce
>Clayton.
>>>(phhhh! Yeah right, give me a break you putzes who dog Barry--I can't
>>>believe i'm even spending this much time on the subject, just wait
>til
>>>October when your team is at home watching Barry and the boys on TV.
>>
>>
>>>I guess he needs to do backflips to truly impress people.
>>
>Harley,
>Are you really an idiot, or just a pest? Next you're going to argue
>that there are no good hitters today, because Cy Young & Christy
>Matteson are dead anyway. And let me guess, there are no good 1st
>baseman, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman and so on, right?
>Get a life - You are just lame & tiring. Perhaps you might try a
>differemt NG that doesn't yet know what a moron you are (YET).
>Steve in AZ
Your ridicule doesn't bother me the least becuase i am strong. I have
backed up every thing i have said. It's all the reds fans who are
upset becuase i have presented them with true facts that they don't
like! Perhaps this newsgroup should be renamed to:
"alt.sports.baseball.cinci-reds.fantacy"
sorry,
harley
William Vaughan
>backed up every thing i have said.
I call bullshit on that - you haven't offered one bit of statistical or
provable evidence in any post that I've read - the leauge is weak at short,
there are no catchers that can throw out base runners, Larkin steals and bunts
to pad his stats and the umps favor the Reds - am I leaving anything out. Now
- go get the stats to back up these claims - go on scurry your talking asshole
out of here and learn a little bit while you're at it. You might be surprised
once you realize what a idiot you've been. Get some quotes, some reliable
sources something - either that or quit wasting bandwidth with your personal
diatribe against Larkin.
>It's all the reds fans who are
>upset becuase i have presented them with true facts that they don't
>like!
Again, at best you offer a conspiratorial theory that is right up there with
aliens shot JFK. You have offered no proof and haven't backed your theory with
evidence - only conjecture. Cause I says so doesn't cut it - I don't care who
in the hell you think you are. At best, you've shown that you know how to turn
a computer on - besides that I would trust a damn thing you say. And take an
English class - true facts is redundant.
>Perhaps this newsgroup should be renamed to:
>"alt.sports.baseball.cinci-reds.fantacy"
I dare you to go over to rec.sport.baseball and offer up your "true facts" as a
legitimate claim - most of them aren't Reds fans and they'll still laugh you
off the net. And again, that English class is looking better - fantasy,
Harley, fantasy.
>sorry,
You most certainly are sorry - the sorriest excuse for a baseball fan or an
internet spammer I have ever run across - now go chase some headlights.
Later
Will
Brian Dean
other current short stops. He is great on the field, in the club house,
and even outside the stadium. No drugs, no wife beatings, no tax fraud, no
gambling problems. Also, he has emerged as the team's captain, leading by
example.
Of course, the headlines speak for them selves... 1995 Larkin Highlight's
As per, AP Online, August 13, 1995, Barry is tied as the National League
leader in stolen bases with 35 (tied with Florida's Quilvio Veras).
As per, Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale), August 12, 1995, Barry Larkin has
only been caught stealing three times in 38 attempts. He had a string of
18 successful attempts since he was thrown out by the Marlins' Charles
Johnson on June 25 at Cincinnati.
As per, The Columbus Dispatch, August 11, 1995, Larkin committed only
his sixth error in 361 chances on a hard-hit ball by Marquis Grissom
As per, AP Worldstream, August 12, 1995, Larkin, began the day batting .313.
As per, GANNETT NEWS SERVICE, August 11, 1995, Friday, Cincinnati's best
player, shortstop Barry Larkin, left the game before the bottom of the
third inning with a bruised left knee and a sore lower back. He was
injured while sliding into second base on an unsuccessful first-inning
steal attempt but expects to play Saturday night.
As per, Cincinnati Enquirer, August 11, 1995, Cincinnati Reds shortstop
Barry Larkin disappeared early Friday night, leaving the game against
the Florida Marlins with a bruised left knee and a jammed lower back
before the bottom of the third inning. However, he expects to be in action
Saturday night. Asked if he'll have to re-evaluate his condition upon
waking up, Larkin shot his interrogator a baleful glance and said, "I'm
playing."
BOTTOM LINE: I only had time to grab 3 days worth of headlines, in
summary: Barry Larkin is batting .313, is staying with the base stealing
leaders (but he only steals when needed, he doesn't steal to bolster his
stats), he is the team leader, he will play hurt, he is great with players
in scoring position (even more so when the game is on th line), and he is
also great outside of the stadium. Nuff said??? BKD
________________________________________________________________________
In article <DD7xB...@lvsun.com>, v...@lvsun.com (Brian Van Hook) wrote:
> And while you're at it, harley, take your time. Months if that's what it
takes.
--
bri...@lexis-nexis.com, de...@pharos.com, or deans...@aol.com
Issib2
writes:
>Eric Davis as the most
>>overrated human being to ever play the game of baseball.
>
>>Phil
>
>I'd say Davis was more disappointing than overrated. The man had
>potential but his body couldn't hold up to the infamous Riverfront
>Astroturf. When he was healthy, David had Bobby Bonds-type talent and
>showed it.
>
>Most overrated Red? How about Dan Driessen, Billy Hatcher...
Some random thoughts on this:
I agree on Eric Davis. He had as much raw talent as anybody. But his
problem wasn't only the Turf...the man had no regard for walls. Whenever I
was lucky enough to get a Reds Tv broadcast and a ball was hit near Eric
and a wall, I used to cringe. He also had some bad luck. Wasn't his kidney
injury in the Series because he landed on the ball trying to make a
shoestring?
Think on this --- what if Mickey Mantle, who may have been the best
natural athlete to ever play baseball, had played on AstoTurf. Mantle's
numbers were reduced by knee injuries playing on grass....on 'Turf he
might not of had a career at all.
Dreissen and Hatcher I think are examples of good solid ballplayers who
got inflated reputations because of stats they accumulated while playing
on really good teams. You are likely to get better pitches batting in
front of Johnny Bench than you are hitting ahead of, o say, Lenny Harris.
The overrating comes from fans and media then expecting the numbers to
continue when the support is gone. IMHO
Stu Shank
issib2@aol
Rob Carr
>Just to throw in my two cents. . .
>Though Barry Larkin sometimes is looked to to be more than he really is,
>he pales in comparison with an ex-Red named Eric Davis as the most
>overrated human being to ever play the game of baseball.
>Phil
I'd say Davis was more disappointing than overrated. The man had
potential but his body couldn't hold up to the infamous Riverfront
Astroturf. When he was healthy, David had Bobby Bonds-type talent and
showed it.
Most overrated Red? How about Dan Driessen, Billy Hatcher...
Red I miss, Mario Soto!
_ __ __ +---------------------------------+
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/--' ____/_ / __. __ __ | called the Moon. |
/ \_(_) /_) (__/ (_/|_/ (_/ (_ +_________________________________+
The Microsoft Network is prohibited from reproducing this work, in
whole or in part. Copyright 1995, R.N. Carr. License is available
to Microsoft Network to reproduce this work for $8866. Reproduction
by The Microsoft Network without written authorization constitutes
agreement to these terms. Please report violations to...
rob...@iadfw.net and postm...@microsoft.com.
Roger
player to ever play the game. He's near the top in most every offensive
category and is the best at shortstop in the whole game. If you don't
believe me look at his fielding %. Don't come on this list with
ignorant BS like that you'll get eaten alive!!!
Roger
clutch the whole year. He was probably 30+ and had only a couple of
years left.
Rob Carr
>>Eric Davis as the most
>>>overrated human being to ever play the game of baseball.
>>
>>>Phil
>>
>>I'd say Davis was more disappointing than overrated. The man had
>>potential but his body couldn't hold up to the infamous Riverfront
>>Astroturf. When he was healthy, David had Bobby Bonds-type talent and
>>showed it.
>>
>Some random thoughts on this:
>I agree on Eric Davis. He had as much raw talent as anybody. But his
>problem wasn't only the Turf...the man had no regard for walls. Whenever I
>was lucky enough to get a Reds Tv broadcast and a ball was hit near Eric
>and a wall, I used to cringe. He also had some bad luck. Wasn't his kidney
>injury in the Series because he landed on the ball trying to make a
>shoestring?
>Stu Shank
>issib2@aol
I'd forgotten about how bad the walls have been at Riverfront and how
Davis was without fear approaching them. He used to cherry-pick balls
from over the wall with regularity. Loved it.
Rob
Brian Van Hook
from running into walls. Remember, Marge Schott wouldn't pay for pads for the
outfield or foul line walls until a player, probably Davis, got hurt crashing
into them.
And fans were all over him for getting hurt running into the wall at Wrigley
Field. Maybe that ivy looks soft, but that's a brick wall in back of it.
I also had higher hopes for Eric. But, hey, he helped lead the Reds to a World
Series title. I still remember his homer early in Game One against the
Athletics. Maybe even the first inning?
Brian V.
Matthew D Eayre
>I'll defend Davis to a certain point. He got hurt a lot, and a lot of that was
>from running into walls. Remember, Marge Schott wouldn't pay for pads for the
>outfield or foul line walls until a player, probably Davis, got hurt crashing
>into them.
>
>And fans were all over him for getting hurt running into the wall at Wrigley
>Field. Maybe that ivy looks soft, but that's a brick wall in back of it.
>
I remember one game where Davis went into the ivy at Wrigley and didn't get
up too quickly. As he lied on the field, some jerk in the bleachers
proceeds to pour beer on him. It's things like that that explain things
like Misra. Actually, I kinda miss Misra; I wonder where the old cross
dresser is these days.
--
Matthew D Eayre I'm not not really this stupid;
mea...@iastate.edu I just pretend to be on the net.
MBENVIE
Ozzie and offensively bats over .300 consistently and is leading the
league in steals. Try watching a game or two before make such an idiot
comment. Eric the Red showed the A's in 1990 the Reds were not
intimidated. Granted he did get hurt two often.
PhilAGray
had a problem with him was -- now that I look back on it -- not so much
with HIM but with the ANNOUNCERS who would call really play him up.
I remember during Eric's struggling days -- which were all too frequent --
Marty Brenneman, after an Eric Davis strikeout, said something to the
effect "What's new," then maybe a couple of days later when a Reds game
was on NBC, or wherever, the non-Reds affiliated announcers gave #44 a
huge introduction before his at-bat, stretched the bravado during the
at-bat, and then said it was only an off-day after Davis' third strikeout
of the day.
Eric did have some talent, but he was more suited for a supporting role in
the lineup -- maybe even leadoff -- instead of the Big Man in the order.
The Reds just tried to make him more than he was.
Phil
The other day I dressed myself up in a bee costume and painted my head
orange. I dipped myself in candle wax and poured feathers all over myself.
I gave myself a perm and carried my dog under my arm all day. I then
constructed a very simple SEP field around me, and I thought noone would
be able to see me, but all that happened was some Mexican television
company asked me to star in a Sit-Com. Oh Well. . .
Mike McGinnis
>
>I can understand where the argument FOR Davis comes from. The only thing I
>had a problem with him was -- now that I look back on it -- not so much
>with HIM but with the ANNOUNCERS who would call really play him up.
I agree. It was impossible for Davis to live up to the astronomical
"potential" he supposedly had. He was a good ballplayer and an asset
to the team, but he was never really ready for the"superstar" role
that he was thrust into.