Thoughts on a border skirmish
Don Tootin'
Angels won 4-2. Yes, the series this year went two to one. Bravo and
fair game. As a Dodger fan who actually appreciates the Angels, it's
great that Southern California is getting all this recognition...SI
and Sporting News both have us facing off in the Fall Classic. If so,
I look forward to it. I do have to get a few things off my chest,
particularly as I have been to about 120 Angel games over the last
decade and probably a tenth of that in my Dodger gear.
First, somehow, somewhere (most likely on the east coast), somebody
has decided the Dodgers and Angels are rivals, almost mortal enemies.
I hear it in the stands, feel it with every peanut that hits my jersey
(your aim is getting better, but you're still not breaking through).
We are not rivals. That position, at least in the minds of Dodger
fans, was filled long before we travelled west and certainly long
before Gene Autry brought American League ball west. We had a fierce
rivalry between boroughs in New York and when the O'Malley family
heard the call (hopefully not from the Village People) to Go West,
they called on the Giants to come along for the ride. Baseball needed
the Giants/Dodgers as a package deal as much as they needed the "No,
No Nanette" rivalry out east. Fueled by Juan Marichal's not-so-civil
war with Johnny Roseboro, Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard Around the
World," Mike Marshall (II) and his finger, to as recently as Steve
Finley's Grand Slam in 2004, the Dodgers and Giants always found each
other standing in the way of something they want. What do the Angels
have that the Dodgers would want? Personally, I'd say the list begins
and ends with Mike Scioscia, but the team had a chance to get him and
passed it up.
Now, what do the Dodgers have that the Angels don't? The Los Angeles
market? Let's get serious for a moment. Orange and Riverside
Counties have done everything in their collective powers to distance
themselves from Los Angeles. What better than a successful sports
franchise to help establish Orange County as a separate but equal
entity to the "second largest sports market" in the nation? Instead,
your intrepid owner decided to try to latch on to the "Los Angeles"
name. As a native Orange County-ean, I find this offensive. Any
Angel fan who can claim to sit in as Jim Abbott struggled in his debut
against the Mariners or one who saw Nolan Ryan obliterate strikeout
records or even one who claimed Dean Chance as his pitcher of choice,
this should offend you to your very marrow. What claim does Boyle
Heights have to your heritage? How can Pico Rivera, Westwood,
Glendale, and Burbank lay claim to the past, present, and certainly
future of what has become one of the elite franchises?
As I left the stadium tonight, I heard the cat calls. Any
knowledgable baseball fan would recognize that a team with eight
regular starters (less Reggie Willits) would likely obliterate a team
that started one regular (Wilson Betemit the sole starter for the
Dodgers). Clearly, Grady Little and Mike Scioscia had different goals
going into this exhibition. In both cases, I'd say those goals were
reached (so long as Kelly Stinnett never dons a Dodger jersey again).
The Angel big league squad is quite ready for Texas. Your Stingers
and Arkansas Travelers look to be just about ready to step in at a
moment's notice. The Dodger minor leaguers can go back to Las Vegas
or Jacksonville knowing what they need to work on and our regulars
were either already in Milwaukee or resting for their debut on
Monday. The three games were exhibitions--the results count for
nothing. What compels the Angel fans to prance around on Orangewood,
State College, and the like as if they just clinched the division?
Why the hatred for the Dodgers? The teams are practically identical.
Both hang their hopes on two of the best, though historically fragile,
rotations in the league. Both will rely heavily on relatively
unestablished youth to balance their older players. Neither are
expected to reach the home run totals of the 2000 Angels. Both have a
rich farm system. Aside from the contrasting managers, the only real
difference is the front office.
Early on the strong advantage went to Arte. He was the guy who
lowered beer prices whereas Frank McCourt was the guy who could barely
afford the team and was likely to turn Chavez Ravine into a giant
parking lot for a mega-apartment complex. Moreno picked up four solid
free agents while McCourt and Paul DePodesta quickly dismantled a
Dodger playoff team. Once Moreno went after the Los Angeles moniker,
the fortunes reversed. Popular players have disappeared from the
Angel lineup--Eckstein, Erstad, Kennedy, Glaus, Bengie Molina...even
Troy Percival wasn't granted the opportunity to retire an Angel. The
Dodgers, meanwhile, found guys like Nomar Garciaparra, Rafael Furcal,
Wilson Betemit to replace the popular defections. Dodger Stadium
remains largely unchanged while the Angel bullpen is now the "El
Torito 'little bull' pen," the Chevrolet glorified dot race, the
Budweiser pavilion. We are now treated to commercials between half-
innings.
Sure, Moreno's background is in advertising so I guess I can concede a
little on his ability to make money, but the beer is more expensive
than ever.
Still, there's something completely different about the fan. The
Angel fan I grew up next to would never boo a brilliant dive into the
hole to snatch a base hit away. They would never toss condiments at a
fan of another team. They especially wouldn't celebrate an exhibition
game as if it counted for anybody who had a uniform number lower than
70. I would expect this behavior of a Devil Ray fan after beating the
Yankees. I'd expect it from the Nationals after a Nick Johnson home
run off John Smoltz catapults them to a four-game sweep over the
Braves. From the Angels, though, who have a recent World Series
trophy, who have appeared in the playoffs each year barring 2003
since, I think it's time to expect something more.
It's time to establish your own identity. Maybe it's better if you
don't look for a rival. The Red Sox are trivial without the Yankees,
the Giants and Dodgers just another team without one-another. The
Angels should and could be that team without peer, the one for whom no
other team's fortune makes a world of difference. The Dodgers have
enjoyed a synergetic relationship with our freeway neighbors. We've
waited for years for the Angels to get a taste of true success. I
know I gave an Eric Gagne signature fist-pump when you knocked our
fiercest rivals out. For three of the four years since, the Angels
have been among the top of the American League. I truly hope it
continues--you can go 156-6 so long as those six losses are against
the Dodgers. And, when we meet in the World Series the niceties will
once again subside. Until then, however, remember that you've been to
the pinnacle. You've stared down the most storied franchises in the
American League time and again. Act like you've been there and don't
pretend that a game in March means anything.
red floyd
>
> As I left the stadium tonight, I heard the cat calls.
Don't get all holier-than-thou. As I sat in Dodger Stadium Friday
Night, proudly wearing my red, I had the distinct displeasure of hearing
a large portion of the crowd display their class by chanting "Angels
Suck", even after it was 13-4.
Kevin Kennedy
of view in the rivalry. Yes it's a rivalry, amongst the fans at least,
notsomuch the players. Then again, what rivalries really mean squat among
the players except the NY/BOS rivalry and even that pot is stirred by the
media and the fans who not only expect they players hate each other but
demand it. If a Red Sox player were to say "I don't HATE the Yankees", he
would get booed mercilessly at home.
Growing up, I too rooted for both teams despite the fact that there weas a
tinge of jealousy at the attention that the Dodgers got. Even if the Angels
were in first place and the Dodgers last, it was the Dodgers who appeared on
the front page while the Angel story was relegated to page eight (page 3
during that glorious month or two where there was no basketball or football
to cover).
This all changed in 2002 with the badwagon swell of support the Angels got,
then festered in 2003 as the Angels drew as many fans out to the ballpark as
the Dodgers. It was then that the animosity started in earnest. No longer
was it a 'friendly' rivalry, the Dodger fans really began to hate the
Angels. And yes, it started with the Dodger fans, IMO. I think of how I
noticed at the games that there were Dodger fans that would openly display
hostility towards me and yell Angels Suck when walking past them with my
Halo gear on. Now I will say, this type of immature behavior does seem to
be most prevalent with young male Dodger fans in their 20s to early 30s.
But the Angels have the same type of fans now, also concentrated in the same
demographic segment. This same group also is the culprit with just about
any team now that I think of it, the "two beer fans" named as such because
they buy themselves two beers when they go to the concession because one
just isn't enough to drink at one time.
Anyhow it was then that the animosity began, attributable I suspect to the
fact that Dodger fan is frustrated that it has been two decades since they
last did anything in the post-season despite having quality teams for many
of those years. The underachieving Dodgers, compounded by the newly
achieving Angels, caused the Dodgers' fans to begin to truly resent the
Angels' success and the fact that they were no longer the majority at the
games in Anaheim plus the fact that they faced an ever-increasing and ever
more vocal Angel minority at their own ballpark. Then Arte started very
publicly courting the LA market, from that point it was "on", the Dodgers
fans, led by the organization itself, felt like they were openly under siege
and thus they got defensive and ever more hostile.
So neither side is innocent and neither side is guilty. Assholes will be
assholes whether they wear Angels caps, Dodgers caps, Yankees caps or Blue
Jays caps. It is a rivalry, whether or not *you* feel it. Plenty do as
evidenced by the behavior of the aforementioned assholes.
I used to root for the Dodgers. Now not only don't I root for them, I root
against them. It was the Dodgers' fans that brought about this change in
me, witnessing their behavior at Angel Stadium. The Dodgers organization
didn't do it, I actually pity them like I pity the retarded guy who walks
around my neighborhood. Since the sale of the team by the O'Malleys, the
organization is no longer the great and storied franchise it once was. The
Dodgers no longer play baseball "The Dodger Way" and baseball is lessened
because of it.
"Don Tootin'" <capng...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175405514.9...@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Don Tootin'
in mind, if I didn't make this point during my original late-night
post, I have nothing but respect for the Angels. I was glad when they
started working the "Calling All Angels" montage at the beginning of
games. For the first time, there seemed to be a pride in the history
and heritage. I root for the Angels for all but the freeway games.
When I root against them, I still applaud them for getting the upper
hand. Naturally it was reluctant but that Gary Matthews Jr. racked up
two doubles in two at bats last night was applaudable, as was Howie
Kendrick's solid shot to the wall.
I still can't agree that there's a rivalry. We do share common real
estate and the teams this year are alarmingly similar. Beyond
territory, there is little common history. The energy directed
towards the Dodgers is certainly less than that directed towards the
Yankees or Red Sox and otherwise indistinguishable from most other
visiting teams. I sat in the park for THAT three game series against
the Nationals and saw & felt more animosity there than I ever expected
from Angel fans. Maybe I'm just used to the frothing ire that erupts
when the black and orange come down to Chavez Ravine, but it's not
there.
As for the fans you described so vividly below, I have a theory on
many of them. When the NFL left the greater LA area, Raider fan felt
a bit displaced. Since the "Nation's" departure, they alit Laker and
Clipper games until they became too expensive. They then descended on
our baseball diamonds. The younger ones, well, I'm afraid they're
that younger generation we're not supposed to understand. I know I
don't. The typical "<other name here> sucks" chanter seldom cheers
when something good happens for his team. Rarer still does he know or
understand what just happened on the field. I like the "two beer" fan
moniker you described. The main difference between your'n and our'n
is yours don't have the prison tats.
I'm really not one to ask who fired the first shot. I do know that
before 2002, I could show up at the stadium for a freeway series and,
no matter the outcome, we'd look to each other and say "good luck this
season and let's do this again in October." We barely broke Spring
Training in 2003 when the "when's the last time the Dodgers won a
meaningful game" needling started. For me it was unexpected. I was
thrilled the Angels beat our most reviled nemesis and not only beat
them but tore their hearts out. That, truly, was my turning point.
We are frustrated with the last 20 years, but the reason isn't as
simple as just one playoff win since 1988. Fox Corp nearly ruined the
Dodgers. They alienated one of our greatest pitchers (Sandy Koufax),
refused even a glance at Mike Scioscia for manager, and simply stopped
listening to the players. It's changing, though. The McCourts
stumbled out of the block but have been very humbled by their first
season failures. Their progress as owners seems almost polar opposite
to Moreno.
I liked Arte at first. Handshakes through the stands, lowering the
price of beer, aggressively attacking the free agent market, the man
came to play. A few years later it's all changed. The beer is up and
up again. Arte now spends most of his time in his box over home
plate. (In contrast, the McCourts are out in the open, usually behind
a slumbering Tommy. I've bumped into both the McCourts and they've
both been pleasant) I've already voiced my disgust with the inaction
from the front office.
The vibe I got from yesterday's visit was especially chilling. The
"Budweiser Pavilion" was in full operation, yet several concessions
such as Panda Express, Ruby's, and at least one more were not. My
wife went hunting for soft serve and was sent on a snipe hunt along
the entire concourse before one person finally told her the only place
to get them won't be ready to open for a little while. The "El Torito
'Little Bull' Pen" was vibrant with advertising color splashes yet the
kids zone was practically bare. I liked the kids photos, their
favorite foods, and such, but the only ones still plastered up there
were Salmon and Anderson. It seemed once again that Moreno's priority
to turn a buck eclipsed his interest on improving the fan
experience.
When the "Los Angeles" thing came up, it felt like an attempt to
manufacture a rivalry. The ploy never worked with the Rams and
Raiders and, short of one or the other team jumping leagues or us
spending a few late Octobers together, it just seemed--well, more was
made of the moniker from the Anaheim city council than in "Blue
Heaven." But then, after the several years as part of Disney, can you
blame a Dodger fan for thinking it artificial?
Well, I doubt you or I would be able to convince the other of the
status of the rivalry. The South still claims that the North fired
the first shot at Fort Sumter while in Connecticut they're convinced
the Southerners did. I'm fairly certain that most, if not all, of the
animosity between the two franchises is not only exclusive domain of
the fans but of the "two beer" fans. Most of the "True Blue" fans I
know wish the best for the Angel franchise and are glad for the
success. To me, that hardly befits an attitude for a rivalry.
> "Don Tootin'" <capngro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevin Kennedy
"Don Tootin'" <capng...@gmail.com> wrote :
LACountyRefugee
1994. That year I stopped following MLB after the strike till 1997. I came
back to thte Dodgers in 1997 because my 7 year old son at the time idolized
Mike Piazza. In 1998 we both abandoned the Dodgers afetr they traded Piazza.
In 2001, I moved my family out of LA County into Orange county. In Feb 2002,
a friend talked me into splitting Angel season seats with him. Because I
thought it would be a great father son bonding thing, I agreed. We witnessed
a miracle season that year and my family has been an Angel fans ever since.
As a kid I followed the Angels because 1) they had Dick Enberg as an
announcer and 2) they televised more frequently than the Dodgers. So I was a
closet Angel fan, but not really a devoted Angel fan like I am now. If they
Dodgers have anything that I would like the Angels to have, that would most
definitely be Vin Scully. He is the last true link in sports that I have to
my childhood. But you can take the McCourts and shove'em where the sun won't
shine. They are from Boston, and growing up as a Lakers fan too, I hate
anything that comes from Boston. Massachusetts is full of "elitist sacks of
shit" and the McCourts fit that bill to a tee. They are just Red Sox fans
who 'invested' in the LA Dodgers.
As far as rivalry, I don't really think one exists. I agree with Kevin's
characterization about the 20 and 30 somethings that give fans from both
teams a bad name. I was at Saturdays game to take my wife out for a date,
kick back, relax and see some Angel prospects whom we had never seen play,
before they get shipped back to the minors. I sat in front of one rude
Dodger fan and one rude Angel fan. I swear their vains were popping from
their foreheads. Over an exhibition game? My wife and I both giggled about
it to ourselves. No wonder they need those portable defibrulators at
ballparks.
I also agree with Kevin about the great Dodger tradition. It is dead. What
once was a proud franchise, no longer exists. The spirit from those good old
days is now with the Angels. Yes, the Angels have instilled the philosophy
of drafting and developing young players/pitchers that the Dodgers were
famous for.
The game experience at Angel Stadium is great too. In five seasons, I have
yet to see anyone throw objects at other fans (I sit in the terrace all star
section). I've witnessed one fight in five years (an Oakland A's fan got
escorted out). I've seen a Mariners fan escorted out for flipping off the
crowd who jeered him as he stood on his seat with his arms pumped over his
head. Of course, I've been told that the view level can get pretty rowdy.
FWIW, I really don't follow the Dodgers at all anymore. I think if they were
still owned by the O'Malleys that I might feel differently. I have become
friends with former Dodger minor league manager Del Crandall. He has shed
some insight on why the O'Malleys had to sell the team. It's sad to to me
when I reflect back at all the enjoyment I received by watching the Dodgers.
The Dodger organization was the class act of all baseball back then. Now,
IMO, it's the Angels organization who are the class act of baseball.
"Don Tootin'" <capng...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175405514.9...@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
red floyd
>[redacted]
> I have become
> friends with former Dodger minor league manager Del Crandall. He has shed
> some insight on why the O'Malleys had to sell the team.
Would it be possible to share this? With Mr. Crandall's permission, of
course.
LACountyRefugee
"red floyd" <no....@here.dude> wrote in message
news:lAlQh.5289$Kd3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Peter O'Malley owned 50% of the Dodgers. His sister owned the other 50%. She
had 10 (or more) children too. For most of their lives the Dodgers were a
cash cow to the Walter O'Malley's heirs. They saw annual income from their
fathers investment in the Dodgers. But the team was losing millions of
dollars a year for most of the 1990s. With the hopes of finding new revenue
sources, they tried and failed to get approval for an NFL stadium to be
built adjacent to Dodger stadium. With a negative cash flow they were afraid
their family fortune would evaporate if they tried to hold onto the team.
They decided to cash out. It's that simple. The game had changed. Gone were
the days of 10 million dollar team payrolls. They had gambled and lost on
the likes Daryl Strawberry and Eric Davis. They were faced with paying their
own prospects (Mike Piazza, Eric Karros and Raul Mondesi) even more than
they were already paying. Roger Clemens got $12 million dollars per year in
1997. The writing was on the wall. They couldn't afford to compete.
Don Tootin'
most of the 80's. I tried to dislike the Dodgers because it would
make living in Giants country much easier. It never worked though.
Tommy, the O'Malleys, Vin...
But then when Fox came around, they did kill the family spirit.
Dodger Corp was born and, frankly, I came close to becoming an Angel
fan. After all, I was living in Orange County, I'd been to three
times as many Angel games as Dodger games, and they were at least
interesting.
With the McCourts, I really thought I'd hate them as much as I did
Fox. For the first year I did. Paul DePodesta eviscerated the
franchise from top to bottom and did nothing to quell the angry fan
base. The first year, Frank and Jamie made several mis-steps. I tip
my cap to them because they acknowledged their mistakes, and have
since. They canned DePo and picked up Colletti. And what has Ned
done since taking over?
First, he was able to field a major league roster without gutting our
farm system, something Kevin Malone failed to do. We have James Loney
and Andy LaRoche in the wings. Russell Martin is already contributing
to the big league club. Acquired Andre Ethier for a clubhouse cancer,
check. We also have Larry Bigbie and Matt Kemp, as needed. As for
pitching, Jon Broxton has already been realized, and Chad Billingsley
is not too far away. Ideally, we'd have three farm-raised starters
but Edwin Jackson struggled and Tim Hamulack is still a year away.
Then again, youth is so very hit and miss, as you can well attest.
Admittedly, it's not Blue Heaven, not by the 70's and 80's standards,
but the sport as a whole has changed. How can the Dodgers be reviled
for having a roster turnover if GA is the only Angel to predate the
Moreno/Stoneman era?
What I'm saying is don't be so quick to send the McCourts up the
river. My first impression of them was wrong.