Giles-Andruw Collision Blame
Marty Winn
to hear some blame assigned for this injury. I've read that Marcus says
that he did not hear Andruw call him off so he had to keep going for it.
If you watch the replay you can see that Andruw was going to pretty
easily catch the ball, it was about chest high at the moment of impact.
There should have been no doubt he was going to get to it. He should
have been calling Giles off. This is an incredibly dangerous play for
the infielder and he has to trust his outfielders to call him off.
Andruw has a responsibility to scream off the infielder in this
situation. I blame Andruw for the injury and I'd like to hear some
contrition out of him. Has anyone seen an apology reported? Or blame
accepted?
I played baseball from T-Ball through senior year of high school and
much softball since then. I can remember my wife being embarrassed at
how loudly I'd call for fly balls. It's a moral responsibility. It
prevents injuries and keeps balls from falling between players. Major
Leaguer's have to know this. They have to practice it. I was able to
tell my wife, that's why I call for the ball so loudly. If Andruw had
done that maybe the last 2 games of offensive ineptitude would not have
happened. Giles is my favorite player on the Braves now and it just
steals the joy out of watching the Braves for me that he is not out
there. I want an apology.
Shining the Light,
Marty Winn
http://www.geocities.com/go_maddux/
Alan Honeycutt
news:2h1b5mF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Giles is my favorite player on the Braves now and it just
> steals the joy out of watching the Braves for me that he is not out
> there. I want an apology.
I'm sorry, Marty.
John Adcox
John
___
John Adcox
Click below for Mythology, Philosophy, Literature, Writing References and more.
http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com
Marty Winn
Maybe I should have been more specific, I want an apology from the
guilty party. If you guys are so eager to please I should have thought
of something more valuable to request/demand. I'm just saying I was
taught how to make the play properly. Andruw should do it properly or
blame should be assigned.
JPM III
Marty Winn
Is that code?
crosem
The fault is more clearly assigned to Marcus Giles, in my opinion. He
should realize who is playing behind him...the best guy in MLB CF, one
who traditionally plays a very shallow CF and one who has the easier
catch as he is running in, whilst Marcus is running out. It seems to
me that neither of them called for the ball, which is bad, but Marcus
was out of his territory. So, I will go 95% Marcus, 5% Andruw. Of
course, as fat as AJ is, perhaps MG did not think he could get to the
ball (obligatory jab at AJ's lack of conditioning included at no extra
charge).
Injury-wise, I think MG got off easily, I feared he would have a huge
head injury/concussion/stiff neck (required poke at JDD for not
playing with "stiff neck," although who can say how much it hurt?)...
ziggy
it's george bush's fault.
Marty Winn
Baseball wise I think you are just wrong on this. The infielder goes
and gets the ball until he is called off. That's the way it works. He
is not expected to "know" where the outfielders are. He is not supposed
to even look. If you anticipate balls fall in. If you look it slows
you down and you lose track of the ball. To me the only way Andrew is
not to blame is if he did call for the ball. Even then he has to call
louder. It does not matter if Giles was calling for the ball. He was
probably not sure he was going to get the ball. Giles can't call off
the outfielder. There is an established pecking order for pop ups. The
centerfielder is king. He can and should call off anyone when he can
get to the ball. Outfielders have authority over infielders. It's
easier to catch a ball coming in than out. It's also easier to make a
throw after the catch. The Middle infielders can call off anyone but
the outfielders. That's why you see SS catching balls in fould
territory as the 3B ducks out of the way. The SS has authority over the
2B. All infielders can call off the pitcher or catcher. I'm really not
sure who wins the fight over the pitcher vs. catcher. I say it should
be the pitcher because the catcher will be have an awkward catch and a
bad glove for pop-ups but some teams want to get the un-athletic pitcher
out of the equation at all costs. Someone with some baseball experience
back me up on this please.
Injury wise I certainly feared worse. If you get a head to head or head
to knee plays have been killed. I guessed it was a shoulder problem and
maybe another concussion. I'm glad it wasn't worse, but really it could
have been just a shaken up on the play kind of thing. Marcus sure went
flying. I knew it was going to happen before it happened. Just like I
knew Furcal had the unassisted triple play when he caught the line drive.
JPM III
> > > > steals the joy out of watching the Braves for me that he is not
> > > > out there. I want an apology.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe I should have been more specific, I want an apology from the
> > guilty party. If you guys are so eager to please I should have
> > thought of something more valuable to request/demand. I'm just
> > saying I was taught how to make the play properly. Andruw should
> > do it properly or blame should be assigned.
> >
> > Shining the Light,
> > Marty Winn
> >
>
> it's george bush's fault.
Lockbox.
JPM III
Since there are equally valid arguments why both should be to blame, then
the answer is clear:
BOTH ARE AT FAULT. Neither should have collided with the other.
Marty Winn
But, they aren't equally valid arguments. What if just one of them had
collided with the other and not both, what then?
Ben
i'm with marty here: marcus was responsible for tracking that ball until he
heard andruw call him off. he is not allowed to take his eye off the ball long
enough to see what andruw is doing. unless he hears andruw (or the ss) call him
off, he better do whatever it takes to catch the ball.
if andruw failed to call it, he is at fault. he owes marty an apology.
even if he is from curacao.
--
Ben
rooskiemark
>
>The fault is more clearly assigned to Marcus Giles, in my opinion. He
>should realize who is playing behind him...the best guy in MLB CF,
Not any more, he's not.
I agree with Marty: it's AJ's fault.
-- Mark
"When you are the good guys, you've got to act like the good guys." -- Lindsey
Graham, R-S.C.
tom dunne
Well, it would depend on the circumstances. If Andruw stepped in the
way after Marcus was already going back on the ball, he's called for a
personal foul and Marcus gets to take a pair of free swings. Of course,
if Andrew had already established his position by the time Marcus hit
him, Marcus would have been given the foul for charging and the fly ball
goes to Andruw. If it's a particularly flagrant violation, a technical
foul may be called, and two automatically runs awarded to the other
player. However, since they both collided at the same time and neither
had control, the fly ball goes to the player with the possession arrow
at that time.
Does that clear it up?
Colin William
> > > Maybe I should have been more specific, I want an apology from the
> > > guilty party. If you guys are so eager to please I should have
> > > thought of something more valuable to request/demand. I'm just
> > > saying I was taught how to make the play properly. Andruw should
> > > do it properly or blame should be assigned.
> >
>
> Lockbox.
Strategery!
Colin
bgs
news:2h21jdF...@uni-berlin.de...
None of you are showing a great deal of compassionativity thus far in this
thread!
JPM III
bgs
news:2h1q8pF...@uni-berlin.de...
That's right, Georgia IS a no fault State isn't it? But, if it weren't, I'd
still have to say it's Giles fault. Many times I've thought his eagernes to
get to a ball (which I hate to criticize) put's him in a position to
interfere with making a play. But how do you tell a guy not to hustle quite
so much?
Craig Nance
wrote:
I thought outfielders were responsible for calling for the ball and
until they do the infielders are supposed to keep going after it. I
saw Marcus on TV and he said that he didn't hear Andruw call for the
ball but that it's hard to hear someone calling for the ball at times
with the crowd.
I don't recall anyone asking Andruw if he called for the ball. If he
said he did, then there's really no way of knowing whose fault it was
or if it was the result of crowd noise.
Sam Hutcheson
wrote:
i blame cathulu.
s/
*****
"Barry Bonds, tired of the steroid controversy, simply stops working out
and suddenly loses eighty pounds of muscle. He trims down to his old, skinny
figure. Instead of hitting out seventy HRs, he steals 120 bases.
After the season, Bonds says he has never felt better and feels like he can
play for another ten years.
Over drinks at a local dive one night, Rickey Henderson confesses, "Hell yeah
Rickey's scared. Rickey likes his SB record. Rickey needs his SB record. Rickey
needs another drink."" -- www.mcsweeneys.net
mwt
<myfirstname....@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 2004 15:18:47 -0400, "JPM III" <jpmc...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
>>
>>Since there are equally valid arguments why both should be to blame, then
>>the answer is clear:
>>
>>BOTH ARE AT FAULT. Neither should have collided with the other.
>
>i blame cathulu.
>
Cthulhu for president:
-- Michael Tarleton
-------------------------------------------------
"someday the english language will be a complete impediment to communication."
-- ziggy
ziggy
"mwt" <mwt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tarna012njielq5op...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:36:58 -0400, Sam Hutcheson
> <myfirstname....@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 19 May 2004 15:18:47 -0400, "JPM III" <jpmc...@hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
> >>
> >>Since there are equally valid arguments why both should be to blame,
then
> >>the answer is clear:
> >>
> >>BOTH ARE AT FAULT. Neither should have collided with the other.
> >
> >i blame cathulu.
> >
>
> Cthulhu for president:
>
> http://www.cthulhu.org/
>
why vote for the lesser evil?
mwt
Dale Hicks
I agree with Marty's analysis. If Andruw thought he had a slight chance
at making the catch, he should've called off Giles. His mouth was
moving, but it looked like he was muttering to himself instead of
screaming "I got it".
But really, at this point, I don't feel the need to point fingers.
Giles needs to put on 100 pounds or so, where he's better prepared to
throw these roll blocks..
--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
crosem
From what tape was shown on TV, it appears to me that neither of them
called for the ball. From comments he has made, Giles clearly blames
AJ. AJ has said nothing on the subject that I can find. Some other
perspectives:
http://www.gwinnettdailyonline.com/GDP/archive/articleA665529848984F30A82ACD77EDAB0B55.asp
Giles sustained the fracture, along with a mild concussion and a
bruised right hand, during an ill-advised trip into shallow center
field chasing Wes Helms' soft fly. Instead of giving way to Jones, a
six-time Gold Glove winner, Giles crashed into him and was down for
several minutes.
But Giles was a victim of his highly aggressive style, venturing too
far into the outfield and colliding with the much bigger Jones on Wes
Helms' fly ball.
rp
Winn <marty...@yahoo.com>:
> I've been meaning to write about this since it happens. I would like
>to hear some blame assigned for this injury. I've read that Marcus says
>that he did not hear Andruw call him off so he had to keep going for it.
> If you watch the replay you can see that Andruw was going to pretty
>easily catch the ball, it was about chest high at the moment of impact.
> There should have been no doubt he was going to get to it. He should
>have been calling Giles off. This is an incredibly dangerous play for
>the infielder and he has to trust his outfielders to call him off.
>Andruw has a responsibility to scream off the infielder in this
>situation. I blame Andruw for the injury and I'd like to hear some
>contrition out of him. Has anyone seen an apology reported? Or blame
>accepted?
> I played baseball from T-Ball through senior year of high school and
>much softball since then. I can remember my wife being embarrassed at
>how loudly I'd call for fly balls. It's a moral responsibility. It
>prevents injuries and keeps balls from falling between players. Major
>Leaguer's have to know this. They have to practice it. I was able to
>tell my wife, that's why I call for the ball so loudly. If Andruw had
>done that maybe the last 2 games of offensive ineptitude would not have
>happened. Giles is my favorite player on the Braves now and it just
>steals the joy out of watching the Braves for me that he is not out
>there. I want an apology.
>
Well, I would partially blame Marcus as well. He ran into Sheffield twice last
season. I expect to see him run into Drew at the warning track some game. I
applaud his heart and hustle, but he doesn't have to try to catch everything
in the ballpark. He has to trust that his OFs can get to the ball as well.
Even if it drops between them, that's better than having him miss 2 months.
rp
-··· ·-· ·- ···- · ··· -·-·-
http://www.fairtax.org
S321Saint
him..right?..please..tell me..lie to me..he IS gone right?
Saint
S321Saint
outfield). The referree should have given (if he wasnt injured) a 15 yard
penalty, thereby forcing him to play 2B about even with the pitcher. Andruw
should have been given a free catch on the next play as a result..
Saint
Justin D.
"crosem" <cro...@flash.net> wrote in message
> But Giles was a victim of his highly aggressive style, venturing too
> far into the outfield and colliding with the much bigger Jones on Wes
> Helms' fly ball.
I think I just solved the mystery!
Its Wes Helms's fault! He is still so pissed off about being traded that he
perfectly placed that fly ball with the intention of getting one or several
Atlanta Braves injured.
--
JD
"He takes pitching to not only the next level, but to where few people have
ever gone before. I don't think its fair to compare Greg Maddux to Christy
Matthewson, but in this era, Greg Maddux is the best that's played the
game." -- Randy Johnson on Greg Maddux
Alan Honeycutt
> Marty Winn <news:2h1rbvF...@uni-berlin.de>:
> > But, they aren't equally valid arguments. What if just one of them
> > had collided with the other and not both, what then?
>
> Um, it takes two to collide.
It takes two to make it out of sight!
Dick Sidbury
> Well, I would partially blame Marcus as well. He ran into Sheffield twice last
> season. I expect to see him run into Drew at the warning track some game. I
> applaud his heart and hustle, but he doesn't have to try to catch everything
> in the ballpark.
Yes he does. It's the infielder's job to go after any ball that he
thinks he has a remote chance of catching. It's basically every
player's job to go after every ball that they think they have a chance
on. And there's a hierarchy as to who takes the balls that several
players can get to. But it's also the job of the person who's going to
catch it to call it.
And that was marty's point, IMHO.
dick
-- when I used to play slow pitch church league softball and pitch on
every pop-up I screamed embarassingly loud "FIRST BASE" or "SHORTSTOP"
or whatever.
Marty Winn
Ben
> >> collided with the other and not both, what then?
> >
> >Well, it would depend on the circumstances.
> >
> outfield). The referree should have given (if he wasnt injured) a 15 yard
> penalty, thereby forcing him to play 2B about even with the pitcher. Andruw
> should have been given a free catch on the next play as a result..
i read your response, but it doesn't answer my basic question: what is the sound
of one fielder colliding?
--
Ben
Ben
> weren't, I'd still have to say it's Giles fault.
oh, c'mon. in a rear-end collision, the guy in back is almost always charged
with following too closely or excessive speed. no way giles takes the blame.
--
Ben
bgs
news:2h4406F...@uni-berlin.de...
Yeah, but go look at the replay, it was a front end collision. I actually
wish I had recorded the game to see if I could tell if Andrew was calling
him off.
JPM III
If Andruw and Marcus collided in an otherwise empty stadium and no one else
was there to see it, whose fault would it be?
JPM III
> "JPM III" <jpmc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2h1q8pF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
> >
> > Since there are equally valid arguments why both should be to
> > blame, then the answer is clear:
> >
> > BOTH ARE AT FAULT. Neither should have collided with the other.
> >
>
> That's right, Georgia IS a no fault State isn't it?
Maybe you didn't read what I just said: they are BOTH at fault.
That is completely the opposite of neither being at fault.
JPM III
Yeah, but then he'll no longer be our catalyst, because he'll no longer be
able to leg out those hustle-doubles, he won't steal 15-25 bases, and his
range at 2B will drop from "slightly above average" to "slightly better than
Cecil Fielder".
Ben
> and no one else was there to see it, whose fault would it be?
bush's.
duh.
--
Ben
Ben
> of sound reasoning- with any incident like this where cause is
> difficult to determine, it's always the darker person's fault.
only if he's wearing a turban.
--
Ben
Marty Winn
> I would just like to clear this highly contentious issue up with a bit
> of sound reasoning- with any incident like this where cause is
> difficult to determine, it's always the darker person's fault.
>
> -Jason
Vindication at last
Marty Winn
No the question is if Andruw and Nick Green were to collide who would
get hurt?
Answer: Marcus Giles, Rafael Furcal, John Smoltz, and Paul Byrd.
bgs
You know, you're absolutely correct. That is the exact opposite. I should
think it therefore reasonable to assume that if neither are at fault, nor
anyone else for that matter, then therefore nothing bad happened and all is
well... GO BRAVES. :)
S321Saint
No..you got that wrong..its : If Andruw and Marcus collided in an empty stadium
and no one saw it....did they really collide?
Justin D.
"S321Saint" <s321...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040520172149...@mb-m13.aol.com...
What, were they playing in Montreal?
Sam Hutcheson
for making a rob ace reference, alan gets 12 extra bonus points and
one serious ass-kicking when he gets back into the country.
s/
*****
"Neoconservatives: A late-twentieth-, early-twenty-first-century American political movement
that stressed the supremacy of the American empire, but was too stupid to invade Australia
first." -- http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/openletters/puppetmasters.html
Dick Sidbury
> "S321Saint" <s321...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040520172149...@mb-m13.aol.com...
>
>>>Ben <news:2h43ftF...@uni-berlin.de>:
>>>
>>>>>>>What if just one of them had
>>>>>>>collided with the other and not both, what then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, it would depend on the circumstances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Its Marcus's fault..he was clearly offsides (being in the grass of
>>>>>the outfield). The referree should have given (if he wasnt injured)
>>>>>a 15 yard penalty, thereby forcing him to play 2B about even with
>>>>>the pitcher. Andruw should have been given a free catch on the next
>>>>>play as a result..
>>>>
>>>>i read your response, but it doesn't answer my basic question: what
>>>>is the sound of one fielder colliding?
>>>
>>>If Andruw and Marcus collided in an otherwise empty stadium and no one
>
> else
>
>>>was there to see it, whose fault would it be?
>>
>>No..you got that wrong..its : If Andruw and Marcus collided in an empty
>
> stadium
>
>>and no one saw it....did they really collide?
>
>
> What, were they playing in Montreal?
:)
dick
-- this is definitely a keeper. It's almost sig quality if it didn't
take so many attributions.
Sam Hutcheson
>rooskiemark <rooskiema...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c8gdb...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>> In article <8f84231a.04051...@posting.google.com>, crosem says...
>> >
>> >The fault is more clearly assigned to Marcus Giles, in my opinion. He
>> >should realize who is playing behind him...the best guy in MLB CF,
>>
>> Not any more, he's not.
>>
>> I agree with Marty: it's AJ's fault.
>>
>> -- Mark
>>
>> "When you are the good guys, you've got to act like the good guys." -- Lindsey
>> Graham, R-S.C.
>
>From what tape was shown on TV, it appears to me that neither of them
>called for the ball. From comments he has made, Giles clearly blames
>AJ. AJ has said nothing on the subject that I can find. Some other
>perspectives:
i read a comment from andruw where he basically said he wasn't calling
for it because he got a bad jump on it and didn't know if he could get
there.
Colin William
> >It takes two to make it out of sight!
>
> for making a rob ace reference, alan gets 12 extra bonus points and
> one serious ass-kicking when he gets back into the country.
Wait, where is he? Off in Africa hunting again?
Colin
Sam Hutcheson
closer to your neck of the woods actually, only *there's the damned
sea!*
JPM III
JPM III
Hey, Ramirez finally won again. Maybe this is the spirit we need to hold
onto. :-P
Alan Honeycutt
news:bqkqa01aaobdk5acc...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:23:26 -0500, "Colin William"
> <colint...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Sam Hutcheson" <myfirstname....@bellsouth.net> wrote ...
> >> >It takes two to make it out of sight!
> >>
> >> for making a rob ace reference, alan gets 12 extra bonus points and
> >> one serious ass-kicking when he gets back into the country.
> >
> >Wait, where is he? Off in Africa hunting again?
>
> closer to your neck of the woods actually, only *there's the damned
> sea!*
In keeping with the theme you might say that, while I'm not internationally
known, I'm known throughout the microphone.
Bob Horton
chasing pop flies into the outfield. As someone else pointed out, he and
Sheffield had several collisions/near misses last year. The first couple of
times Sheffield kind of laughed them off, but after the last one he was
shown "chewing on" Marcus pretty hard. In looking at the play in question,
you could see Andruw's mouth moving, but it didn't look like he was really
screaming. With Sheffield, you could see that he was yelling as loud as he
could and it made no apparent difference. Anyway, I guess my point is that
I'm not sure that Andruw could have called off Marcus. I think you could
argue that he could have tried harder, but IMO I'm not sure that it would
have made any difference, given past experience. I think we all know that
normal procedure is for the IF to yield to the OF if the OF player calls him
off. With Marcus, I think his aggressive style of play is just part of the
package. Overall, it's very valuable, but sometimes you are going to get
the result we saw this time.
Bob Horton
--
"Marty Winn" <marty...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2h3pmaF...@uni-berlin.de...
Ben
> > >
> > >If Andruw and Marcus collided in an otherwise
> > > empty stadium and no one else was there to see it,
> > > whose fault would it be?
> >
> > No..you got that wrong..its : If Andruw and Marcus
> > collided in an empty stadium and no one saw it....did
> > they really collide?
>
> What, were they playing in Montreal?
<gold star>
--
Ben
Sam Hutcheson
> > >> one serious ass-kicking when he gets back into the country.
> > >
> > >Wait, where is he? Off in Africa hunting again?
> >
> > closer to your neck of the woods actually, only *there's the damned
> > sea!*
>
> In keeping with the theme you might say that, while I'm not internationally
> known, I'm known throughout the microphone.
<sigh>
for the love of god man, if you're going to go there, at least go there *correctly.*
while i'm not internationally known
i've been known to rock the microphone
gah. my brain needs a shower.
s/tupid, i mean outrageous/
Marty Winn
How could I forget J.D.?
Marty Winn
> On 19 May 2004 19:26:34 -0700, cro...@flash.net (crosem) wrote:
>
>
>>rooskiemark <rooskiema...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c8gdb...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>
>>>In article <8f84231a.04051...@posting.google.com>, crosem says...
>>>
>>>>The fault is more clearly assigned to Marcus Giles, in my opinion. He
>>>>should realize who is playing behind him...the best guy in MLB CF,
>>>
>>>Not any more, he's not.
>>>
>>>I agree with Marty: it's AJ's fault.
>>>
>>>-- Mark
>>>
>>>"When you are the good guys, you've got to act like the good guys." -- Lindsey
>>>Graham, R-S.C.
>>
>>From what tape was shown on TV, it appears to me that neither of them
>
>>called for the ball. From comments he has made, Giles clearly blames
>>AJ. AJ has said nothing on the subject that I can find. Some other
>>perspectives:
>
>
> i read a comment from andruw where he basically said he wasn't calling
> for it because he got a bad jump on it and didn't know if he could get
> there.
>
> s/
Well sometime before he was about to catch it chest high he ought to
have figured out that he was going to get there.
Shining the Light,
Marty Winn
JPM III
> > > would get hurt?
> > >
> > > Answer: Marcus Giles, Rafael Furcal, John Smoltz, and Paul Byrd.
> >
> >
> > But not J.D. Drew. Good answer!
>
> How could I forget J.D.?
Because you've seen the light, and you have realized that J.D. will remain
healthy for the rest of the season, defying all logic and reason.
Alan Honeycutt
Wow, that line's not nearly as humorous now that I know what he's *really*
saying.
> gah. my brain needs a shower.
>
> s/tupid, i mean outrageous/
Well, stay away from me if you're contagious.