To all APA (American Poolplayers Association) members
Andy Trafford
As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
abolished.
In order to encourage the APA to revise the current rules, we have created
an online petition that can be accessed at
http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
We would like to get as many APA members as possible to sign this petition,
so we would appreciate your help -
please take a few minutes to sign the petition, and please forward this post
to as many APA members as you can.
Thanks in advance,
Leila Noor & Andy Trafford
David Malone
<tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote:
>As you may be aware, current APA rules regarding the ranking of new players
>are different for men and women. We believe that proficiency at pool has
>nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
>abolished.
You mean new female players come in as a '3' and new male players come
in as a '4'?
I've heard that. My wife entered CPA as a '2' years ago and that was
appropriate. Took her 2 years of dilligent sandbagging to get to a
'3'. (VBG)
My opinion is that it may sound discriminatory but in fact most males
have played considerably more pool than women and the rule makes sense
to me. New female players in our leagues tend to be just that -
completely new to the game of pool. Most new male players seem to be
bar bangers who have progressed to the stage they want to test their
skills in organized pool.
In any case, the handicapping system will allow them to adjust in a
short space of time.
David "The Hamster" Malone
Rufus
> We believe that proficiency at pool has
> nothing to do with gender and that such discriminatory rules should be
> abolished.
That's why there are so many ladies ranked as APA 6's and 7's. No
difference in proficiency at all. (the differences are obvious to
anyone who watches the first night of league play IMHO)
There are always exceptions but in terms of the greater population far
more men play pool more often than the ladies. So for the sample of
ladies playing ApA it is likely they will as a group be less
proficient than their male counterparts if by nothing else than the
larger numbers in the male pool playing population. Raises an
interesting question, would Alison and Karen play with Earl, and
Effren for high stakes? If so who would win?
Good luck on your petition. You might also bring up that established
male 2's must play as 3's in the national APA tournaments and also at
the regional level as I understand it.
Best wishes,
Rufus
Superseal
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40d9ccdc....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
>
> My opinion is that it may sound discriminatory but in fact most males
> have played considerably more pool than women and the rule makes sense
> to me. New female players in our leagues tend to be just that -
> completely new to the game of pool. Most new male players seem to be
> bar bangers who have progressed to the stage they want to test their
> skills in organized pool.
>
> In any case, the handicapping system will allow them to adjust in a
> short space of time.
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone
And that's why we have equal pay for equal work. And when some (in this
case) woman climbs up and over your back using this system whether it be
work or pool and eats your lunch...................and I've seen my share
.........................I hope you keep that shit-eating grin.
SS
Bob
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
news:40d98b94$0$2998$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>
We need a petition to get the APA to allow jump cues!
Bob
David Malone
<supe...@optonline.net> wrote:
>And that's why we have equal pay for equal work. And when some (in this
>case) woman climbs up and over your back using this system whether it be
>work or pool and eats your lunch...................and I've seen my share
>.........................I hope you keep that shit-eating grin.
Nobody (and I mean nobody) eats my lunch except me. Lol...
IMHHO the cream always rises to the top and that includes work and
pool. You sound bitter - care to share why you feel this way?
David "The Hamster" Malone
Superseal
cause I have a tummy ache.
BTW, you seem like a good guy, I meant no offense with my post.
SS <-----doesn't like anyone getting a free ride at his expense (except a
few, maybe).
David Malone
<supe...@optonline.net> wrote:
>cause I have a tummy ache.
Lol...
>BTW, you seem like a good guy, I meant no offense with my post.
None taken.
>SS <-----doesn't like anyone getting a free ride at his expense (except a
>few, maybe).
I kinda felt the same way when some of the government initiated
affirmative action programs came out years back. I've since come to
realise that even if it seems like it isn't fair at the time it all
tends to come out in the wash ie. the incompetent still drop off and
the go-getters still win.
The pool thing with the APA, in an ideal world everybody would start
equal. At least in my part of the pool world, the reality is that
women usually are novices compared to the men when they first start
organized league play. Of course, there are exceptions but not many in
my experience. And we have some really good female players here in the
Toronto area (Rachel Abbink, Sheri Richardson, Rhonda Jackman, Grace
Nakamura, etc...)
David "The Hamster" Malone
Miller
If you didnt sandbag so much you wouldnt need a jump cue. We all know your a 7.
Andy Trafford
a system to determine realistic handicaps?
When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
"69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
below"
OK...
1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men start
as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
statistic like the one above???
2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're not
talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
Maybe tall players should start at 4, while short guys (like me) should
start as a 3. It would make a lot more sense to me...
Anyway, the petition's at http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
Traff
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40dc2a04....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
Andy Trafford
a system to determine realistic handicaps?
When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
"69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
below"
OK...
1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men start
as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
statistic like the one above???
2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're not
talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
Maybe tall players should start at 4, while short guys (like me) should
start as a 3. It would make a lot more sense to me...
Anyway, the petition's at http://www.petitiononline.com/APA/petition.html
Traff
"David Malone" <mal...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:40dc2a04....@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
Joe
Calm down.
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
news:40e02c71$0$3137$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> Why even consider gender when new players start??
- to be fair to women
- to encourage women to play by being more fair. Teams are always more fun
if they have a few female members. Don't you agree. (Maybe not)
- My observation from many years of APA play is that new male players almost
always have more pool playing experience and skill than new female players.
Guys just go to bars and play pool more often than women. Just a fact.
> When I questioned the APA, they quoted the following statistic:
>
> "69% of male players are SL4s and higher while 78% of ladies are SL3s and
> below"
>
> OK...
>
> 1. The whole point of my complaint is that women start as a 3 and men
start
> as a 4. Bearing this in mind, should we be surprised when we see a
> statistic like the one above???
- the differing starting points do not cause the above statistics, the
statistics are the justification (from a fairness point of view) for the
different starting points. Is that not obvious?
>
> 2. Why even break it down into male/female in the first place?? We're
not
> talking weightlifting here... I hate to say it, but I'm sure they could
> come up with stats to justify starting ANY minority group at SL3.
- that is just not true. Even the best female professional players could
not meaningfully compete in a tournament with professional male players. If
so, we would see them entering male dominating tournaments. Imagine J. Lee
versus Strickland, it would be a huge draw, but the fact is it would be a
disappointing massacre.
Michael Schatz
share of woman. But the one thing I have found is that it does not take
long for them to get the ranking they deserve. How many times have you been
beaten by a guy that is ranked as a two or three but plays like a five or
six ? I have seen it too many times to count, they come in as a four first
time in a league but have been playing pool all there life. Nerves take
over the first couple of weeks and they quickly drop down to a two, then the
nerves settle down and they start to play their game and there taking a
seven to the cleaners only needing to win 2 games.
Thanks
Mike
msc...@ptd.net
www.poconobilliardsupplies.com
www.giftsgallery.com
www.waggintailsrescue.com
Fax: 775-535-7602
IN GOD WE TRUST
"Andy Trafford" <tr...@poolplayers.us> wrote in message
news:40d98b94$0$2998$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
DMHenrie
As a Captain I might sacrifice someone on my team to play him, maybe someone
who is a borderline 3-4, 4-5. The new guy can crush my guy (without anyone
sandbagging), and the new players ranking will head up, my guy will head
down. It is no different in tournaments though with new players. I have won
a few cause I came in under-ranked.
It wont happen to often at the same place though. Same with APA, sooner or
later the ranking will work out, unless sandbagging or bad score-keeping is
taking place.
"Michael Schatz" <msc...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:fYidnQ601eT...@ptd.net...
DHakala
Most women won't join a league if they have to compete heads-up with men.
They demanded this one-level advantage, and the men went along because they
wanted more women in the league.
Gender roles are decidedly primitive in the realm of billiards. Check out
any dating pair at any pool table, and the odds are very high that you will
see the following:
Man playing like a show-off.
Woman admiring man's prowess while playing like a complete spastic.
Man trying to show woman how to hold a cue properly.
Woman persistently "not getting it."
Men take women to play pool in order to exhibit male dominance. Women like
male dominance. Women won't learn to shoot pool properly because doing so
would diminish the male's dominance over her.
That's life in the Wild Kingdom, kids. Aberrations (which I wholeheartedly
acknowledge and applaud) are the result of nurture, not Nature.
Chris
league) start as a four then move accordingly but can never drop to a two.
I have been a three since starting four years ago and went through a spell
of loses that would have dropped me from a four to three (had I been a four)
but I never actually dropped to a two. The league operator said men could
not.
"Michael Schatz" <msc...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:fYidnQ601eT...@ptd.net...
Ron Hudson
>I didn't think a guy could be a two in APA. In our area they (new to the
>league) start as a four then move accordingly but can never drop to a two.
>I have been a three since starting four years ago and went through a spell
>of loses that would have dropped me from a four to three (had I been a four)
>but I never actually dropped to a two. The league operator said men could
>not.
You can't be a 2 in 8-ball. You can in 9-ball.
Ron
DMHenrie
I dont agree with you at all ..
"DHakala" <dha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1MqdnVBTuK_...@comcast.com...
DMHenrie
our division. But, they can not play, as a two, in an upper level
tournament, such as Vegas qualifiers. Those don;t allow a male two, only a
three.
Dave
"Ron Hudson" <R...@Intermediacorp.net> wrote in message
news:dp7i329ghd5f8inb5...@4ax.com...
Ron Hudson
>You are wrong, a male AN be a two in eight ball, there are two of them in
>our division. But, they can not play, as a two, in an upper level
>tournament, such as Vegas qualifiers. Those don;t allow a male two, only a
>three.
>Dave
League operators do have some leeway with rules they can adopt as local bylaws
at the local level to accommodate local conditions. It must be that your league
operator created the special skill level 2 for males in your area knowing that
such a low level would be necessary.
Ron
Chris
not to common I suspect.
"DMHenrie" <dmhe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:M_9_f.1645$7Z6.307@trnddc06...
DMHenrie
playing 8ball. He started as a 4, went to a 3 for a while, but never won. No
sandbagging, just choked on 8 over and over. He eventually went to a 2, and
still has a difficult time winning. He wont do us any good though in any
upper level tournament, as we can only play him as a 3. It does talk about
Male 2's in the APA captains handbook, so it is not just a local thing.
Dave, Captain of " Fire In the Holes ", Diamond Fire Company, Slatington, PA
"Chris" <wirly...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:W3s%f.472$pi6.195@dukeread12...