History of Laser Tag
Rachel Weinstein
Spending some insomnia time on google and thought I'd go to the source for
this question. My husband held the original patent on what became laser tag.
He was one of the founders of Star Laser Force which opened in Houston in
1984, several months before Photon. Star Laser Force wasn't the biggest and
never made much money, but it was the first. My husband sold his orginal
patent to worlds of wonder. Most of the 'proof' we have is old news reals.
Seems like all trace has been erased on the web :(
Rachel
Roundabout
Hey !! I played Star Laser Force, and I believe my wife had/has a
players card from there too. (Good god I am old) When did SLF open ?
What was the Patent number or your husbands full name ?
Roundabout
Jeff Ellis
Aaron
Believe it or not I actually played Star Laser Force, it was my first
system ever. If I am not mistaken it was down off old Telephone Rd.
There was also a Photon somewhere off 1960 (Close to the North side
I-45), but I never got to play that one. I was wondering, when you
say that your hubby sold the patent, was that the original laser tag
system? I seem to remember some cheap systems that sold in Toys-R-Us
but I can't recall if that was before or after Star Laser Force.
Ripclaw
98 NAC Champ
9DV
Team Lefty
"only as good as my pack"
Rachel Weinstein
"Roundabout" <jnce...@rmbb.net> wrote in message
news:4105CEC2...@rmbb.net...
>
> Hey !! I played Star Laser Force, and I believe my wife had/has a
> players card from there too. (Good god I am old) When did SLF open ?
> What was the Patent number or your husbands full name ?
>
> Roundabout
> Jeff Ellis
>
>
>
Very cool!
I was just talking to him about it last night after I posted this . I don't
know very much about patents (it's what)
he does for a living now), but he says it was abandoned by Worlds of Wonder
when it went bankrupt. He
was just out of college at the time, and WoW offered him a five figure
amount of money to take over the patent.
He said that basically, he was told that this would be a one season fad, and
that he could either take what they
offered and sign away his rights to the game, or they'd take it anyway and
by the time he litigated for it (which he
could not afford), it would be worthless.
He can't remember off the top of his head exactly when in early 1984 SLF
opened, but he remembers it being
before Photon. There are a handful of old posts I can find about SLF on
deja, and one also
specifically mentions the person playing it while Photon was being built.
He said his main claim to having invented 'Laser Tag,' however, is that
technically (he's more of an engineer
than a game player) Photon and Laser Tag are two very different systems. The
photon gun records a signal
from a light pattern on the other players vest. The Laser Tag gun sends out
a signal that is picked up by the
vest of the player who is 'shot.' His system is the one that was used by
Worlds of Wonder. Photon actually
became it's own separate game.
What I have on computer is an old 'Eyewittness News' report. There's no date
on what's transferred to the computer
(It's written on the old videocassette in the basement), but looking at
another story, reported by a Dave Ward
that had a few frames before what was transferred, it looks like the evening
in June 1984 that a shuttle launch was halted for engine failure. So I know
SLF was
up and running before then. The story is great. Lots of bad hair and
screaming kids. They get my husbands name wrong!
But behind that really bad mustache, it's definitely him. The game system
also looks just like the WoW system.
We've also got an old audio file from a radio ad, but there's no way to date
that.
Maybe I'll ask him to dig up his old player's card later. I remember seeing
that at some point in the past. He said it was a popular
place to work, as the staff would play after the place closed, so he has one
of the first issued cards.
Hope that helps.
Rachel
Rachel Weinstein
"Aaron" <ripcl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42a09230.04072...@posting.google.com...
\> Believe it or not I actually played Star Laser Force, it was my first
> system ever. If I am not mistaken it was down off old Telephone Rd.
> There was also a Photon somewhere off 1960 (Close to the North side
> I-45), but I never got to play that one. I was wondering, when you
> say that your hubby sold the patent, was that the original laser tag
> system? I seem to remember some cheap systems that sold in Toys-R-Us
> but I can't recall if that was before or after Star Laser Force.
>
>
I don't know Houston, but the TV spot says it was on 'South Weiss Avenue'
in 'Bellaire'
There were definitely 'ray gun' toys that were sold prior to laser tag, and
I can't swear
none of them were every called 'laser tag.'
My husband's, howeverm was the system that was sold to Worlds of Wonder and
sold under the name
'Laser Tag.' I mentioned this a bit in the other post, but he was explaining
to me
that Photon was a completely different system than Laser Tag. Maybe not from
a game play point of view, but from an engineering and intellectual property
standpoint.
Photon, the arena game, was much more successful than Star Laser Force, the
arena game,
even though it started later.
I think that's the reason that all the laser tag histories imply that Photon
was what inspired, if not
became, the Worlds of Wonder toy. Photon was a completely different system
that
became its own toy. The Worlds of Wonder toy was the first 'Laser Tag'
system and
was based on Star Laser Force.
Great Unclean
Did some quick patent research, and I was unable to find a patent
related to SLF from that time period (just did a quck search for Laser
and Tag, I'll search more later) I did find an interesting patent for
a different kind of tag:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=4855&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&s1=(laser+AND+tag)&p=98&OS=laser+and+tag&RS=(laser+AND+tag)
This patent is for a tag system that shoots light (not a laser) and
makes a sound, and hits are recorded on a vest by flourescent patches
on the vests that will glow when the light hits it. Doesnt' appear to
use IR or lasers at all. Interesting.
THE Great Unclean One
Predator
are a few mentions of people playing it on alt.sport.photon also.
This guy has a picture of his ID from there:
http://www.markshields.com/archives/2001-05-faketelepathy.shtml
and this mention:
http://alsplace.os9al.com/lasertag.html
Dallas Photon opened on 4/2/84. It was in development, of coruse,
before that. The music was being produced in the Fall of 1983.
Houston Photon opened later. A link to a pic of the patent is here:
http://members.aol.com/PHOTONKAH/phtnptnt.html
I can't find the date Houston Photon opened, but here's a link to a
resume of a guy who says he was the head tech:
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~srs/resume.html
Some folks mention SLF in reference to playing in Houston. But
there's no mention to this being the first commercial laser tag.
Though the rest of your assertion can be correct...being bought out by
Worlds of Wonder. Hasbro has the Lazer Tag trademark now:
http://media.hasbro.com/pl/page.release/dn/default.cfm?release=185
http://www.hasbro.com/lazertag/
We all look forward to hearing more about LSF. I'd love to see the
video or anything else you've got. Feel free to email me.
That's about all I got "on the quick." What else has Lee done? Did he
create that "Top 10 Things to Know About Protecting Your Intellectual
Property?"
Yo Vinny/Predator
http://www.lasertagvideo.com
dire...@lasertagvideo.com
"Rachel Weinstein" <Rache...@medscape.com> wrote in message news:<BEqNc.167967$%_6.58014@attbi_s01>...
Anomoly
Anomoly
"Rachel Weinstein" <Rache...@medscape.com> wrote in message
news:1ShNc.165588$%_6.46528@attbi_s01...
Rachel Weinstein
> there's no mention to this being the first commercial laser tag.
> Though the rest of your assertion can be correct...being bought out by
> Worlds of Wonder. Hasbro has the Lazer Tag trademark now:
>
> http://media.hasbro.com/pl/page.release/dn/default.cfm?release=185
>
> http://www.hasbro.com/lazertag/
>
> We all look forward to hearing more about LSF. I'd love to see the
> video or anything else you've got. Feel free to email me.
>
> That's about all I got "on the quick." What else has Lee done? Did he
> create that "Top 10 Things to Know About Protecting Your Intellectual
> Property?"
>
> Yo Vinny/Predator
>
Thanks for the reply!
Yup, that's the same Lee Weinstein. He's done various projects. One of the
early
shocking dog collars, some medical devices. He doesn't seem to give a hoot
that the
web histories focus on Photon and ignore him. But it bums me out on his
behalf, as
it's his best known work by far.
Apologies for being misleading on the patent. I was hoping that would be
some sort of
paper trail, but he's the patent expert, not me. I always thought the patent
was awarded,
but when I asked him about it this morning, he said it was tranferred to WoW
in process,
and they went out of business before it was awarded. As you can see, he
learned some
very good lessons from the whole experience, and now makes a great deal of
his living
from evaluating and writing patents.
Obviously who 'invented' something
is always a fuzzy process. There's usually multiple people working on
unrelated projects
who all could put in a valid claim. But if the WoW product is generally
considered the
earliest person use laser tag, then SLF is undoubtedly what lead to that
toy, both
technically and chronologically.
I'd be happy to share the video. There's nothing on it to give a date, but
it's still kind of fun.
I also have an audio file of the first SLF radio ad, but again, dateless.
Roundabout
them here http://www.fuzzycouch.com/lazertag/shootthemoon.html
The patent with their names on it is 5,904,621
go to the address below and type it in to view it
http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-adv.htm
Granted May 18 1998
Assignee is Tiger Electronics (?Currently owned by Hasbro?)
It says it was initialy applied for in 1997
(or is a continuation of an application from 1997)
It does not say if it was an abandoned and picked up/transfered/bought
by Tiger Electronics. Im not sure how all that stuff works for patents,
(abandonment, buying & selling of rights and uses) but on Trademarks
they show you the history of such things.
When I remember playing SLF it was more like the patent Unclean posted.
(4,586,715) The vests could be shut off/scored on by the marshal shining
the flashlight on you. More like photo diodes turning off with a counter
attached to them than any actual communication between equipment. I do
recall the marshals having to add up the scores.
This patent actually refrences Photon(4,695,058 1987 Carter, III et al.)
The only thing I have seen older than Lazer Tag(home game) and
Photon(Arena game) was a set of star trek phasers.
Check them out if you want to. http://www.nucleardawn.us/history.htm
Roundabout
Jeff Ellis
Rachel Weinstein
> These guys say they were the founders of Worlds of Wonder, you can see
> them here http://www.fuzzycouch.com/lazertag/shootthemoon.html
>
> The patent with their names on it is 5,904,621
>
> go to the address below and type it in to view it
> http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-adv.htm
>
> Granted May 18 1998
> Assignee is Tiger Electronics (?Currently owned by Hasbro?)
>
> It says it was initialy applied for in 1997
> (or is a continuation of an application from 1997)
>
>
Like I said, I'm no expert, but that looks like it's a patent for
what's currently known as laser tag. I can ask my husband if
there's anything remaining of the original application.
It might make no difference for game play, but if you read the photon
patent, it's for a toy gun that picks up signals from the vests. That's
why the two patents could even be issued. They're completely different
things.
Predator
errors happening, but that's just my opinion. If SLF opened in 1984
also, it seems like both SLF and Photon were in development around the
same time and though Houston's Photon wasn't open, Photon Corporate
did open it's first store April 2,1984 in Dallas, Texas. It grew
through franchising and Entertech licensed and produced the Photon
Toy/Home Game System. Many people attribute that to the eventual
demise of the Photon arenas. The toys were marketed towards children
while the arena game was marketed to adults. Many owners weren't able
to adjust quickly enough to this change. A majority of the laser tag
business now comprises birthday party and group bookings. I haven't
done a real periodical search but I believe the first mention of
Photon was in Dragon Magazine. I'd love to see a copy of that article
if anybody has it.
So it seems as if SLF "sold" it's technology to Worlds of Wonder which
developed and marketed it under the brand name Lazer Tag. More on
that here:
http://fuzzycouch.com/lazertag/lazermsgs/
And an article about the WoW founders specifically:
http://fuzzycouch.com/lazertag/lazermsgs/
Now "Laser Tag" has become the generic name for most of these laser
sport systems.
The military used a system for simulating combat and developed it
through the 70's and 80's called MILES - Multiple Integrated Laser
Engagement System.
http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2003/0324/web-miles-03-25-03.asp
http://www.peostri.army.mil/PRODUCTS/MILES_XXI/history.jsp
I've even seen compononets sold on Ebay for it.
Y'know, if I applied this type of research to my reports in school I
probably could have gone further. But seriously...how many Catcher in
the Rye reports does the world really need?
Yo Vinny/Predator
"Rachel Weinstein" <Rache...@medscape.com> wrote in message news:<WryNc.168192$a24.101107@attbi_s03>...
The Bitches Bastard
>probably could have gone further. But seriously...how many Catcher in
>the Rye reports does the world really need?
This topic of the history of lasertag is an interesting one indeed. Perhaps
someone should document these events in a film.
I might even be willing to give an interview or two for such a project. :)
ha\/ok
-------------------------------
Legends of Lasertag
Point Blank
Y.T.
> This guy has a picture of his ID from there:
>
> http://www.markshields.com/archives/2001-05-faketelepathy.shtml
>
eerie, I used to work with this dude.
Great Unclean
>
> Like I said, I'm no expert, but that looks like it's a patent for
> what's currently known as laser tag. I can ask my husband if
> there's anything remaining of the original application.
>
> It might make no difference for game play, but if you read the photon
> patent, it's for a toy gun that picks up signals from the vests. That's
> why the two patents could even be issued. They're completely different
> things.
Any clue as to the scope of the patent, or when it officially died
out? It could not have lasted too long, or encompased all foreward IR
technology, as pretty much every laser tag system out there uses
foreward IR (gun transmitts, vests receive) except for LaserForce,
which ripped off a bunch of Photon technology.
If the difference in patents lied in the question of IR, the patent
must have not been based on that difference, or Laser Tag dropped the
patent quickly. I know Tron opened it's first site in 1988, which
uses foreward IR (like LSF), so it must have been gone by then.
Your husband might take some consolation that must manufacturers (and
myself) recognize foreward IR (like LSF) as superior to reverse IR
(photon).
Also, anyone checked with the city of Houston to get an exact date for
the opening of LSF? I know that info is public information, and I
would assume archives would remain from that period.....
THE Great Unclean One
Plano
The Bitches Bastard
>myself) recognize foreward IR (like LSF) as superior to reverse IR
>(photon).
>
Don't like that whole "real time" scoring thing? Or that pesky, knowing when
you're on target?
Great Unclean
There are plenty of foreward IR systems that have realtime scoring.
You just need a quick polling rate, or continuous polling on the
packs. Look at Darklight. (or are you meaning something else?) And
yes, the whole 'on target' indicator is cool, but it does not
outweight the negitives of R-IR.
With reverse IR, you are transmitting but it isn't focused like it is
coming out of a gun. Therefore, any type of reflective or defractive
material your sensor-beam comes into contact with sends it everywhere.
If there is alot of fog in the arena, your sensors can turn into
clouds of sensors. Same thing with walls. Also, you can't really
control the fineness of your 'shot'. The IR is gong to fill up and be
diffracted everywhere out of whatever sensor casing you have on your
packs, so the only way to control the size of your sensors is to
change the physical casing on the vest. From an engineering
standpoint, I don't see how R-IR could be nearly as efficient as F-IR.
You are constantly transmitting out of each of your sensors, which
will eat up more power. (not that an LED eats up that much power, but
it would add up)
The Bitches Bastard
Really? Name them.... keep in mind, I know real time scoring can actually be
done in REAL time, not CLOSE to real time.
>Therefore, any type of reflective or defractive
>material your sensor-beam comes into contact with sends it everywhere.
Not quite... have you actually PLAYED enough force or Photon to be saying this?
Or is this more of your assumed knowledge spewin... I mean, seeping out?
> If there is alot of fog in the arena, your sensors can turn into
>clouds of sensors.
Never happened to me.
>Same thing with walls.
Reflection shots are no more or less a negative then mirrors. At least in
Photon you have to make an educated risk of whether or not you're hitting an
opponent. Being able to see around a corner to shoot someone in the back isn't
very skillfull at all and since there's no friendly fire there's really no
risk.
>Also, you can't really
>control the fineness of your 'shot'.
If you are standing next to a player on my team, or even behind him, I will hit
my target on your pod every time. Again, you're making assumptions rather then
statements of fact. Ask the people on this group with actually substabtial
reverse IR experience how innacurate of a system it is.
*$pam*
"The Bitches Bastard" <havo...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20040729171731...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> >There are plenty of foreward IR systems that have realtime scoring.
>
> Really? Name them.... keep in mind, I know real time scoring can actually
be
> done in REAL time, not CLOSE to real time.
He told you to look at Darklight... or is that one of those "CLOSE to real
time" systems?
--
*$pam*
LQ Brampton
Two points better than you!!!
Great Unclean
> >There are plenty of foreward IR systems that have realtime scoring.
>
> Really? Name them.... keep in mind, I know real time scoring can actually be
> done in REAL time, not CLOSE to real time.
>
You seem to be confused about the relationship between realtime
scoring and IR. Whether or not a system has foreward or reverse IR
has nothing to do with whether or not it has realtime scoring. That
is an issue involving pack communication with the central computer.
The IR issues is ONLY related to what direction the pack information
travels. Gun to pack, or pack to gun.
> >Therefore, any type of reflective or defractive
> >material your sensor-beam comes into contact with sends it everywhere.
>
> Not quite... have you actually PLAYED enough force or Photon to be saying this?
> Or is this more of your assumed knowledge spewin... I mean, seeping out?
I've played probably 40-50 games of LaserForce. Not competition, but
I would consider that enough to comment on this issue. It may not be
an issue in Photon, or maybe where I have played just had their LED's
turned up more, but there was definantly an issue involving fog
scattering of the beam (from the pack).
> > If there is alot of fog in the arena, your sensors can turn into
> >clouds of sensors.
>
> Never happened to me.
See above.
> >Same thing with walls.
>
> Reflection shots are no more or less a negative then mirrors. At least in
> Photon you have to make an educated risk of whether or not you're hitting an
> opponent. Being able to see around a corner to shoot someone in the back isn't
> very skillfull at all and since there's no friendly fire there's really no
> risk.
A mirror is intentional, and can be controlled. If you don't want it
to occur, do not include a mirror. You do not have a similar option
with reflection from reverse IR sensors, except to turn down the power
of the sensor/transmitter, and that affects other elements of
gameplay. I will say that you can get a similar effect with foreward
IR, but it isn't nearly as big a problem for various reasons.
> >Also, you can't really
> >control the fineness of your 'shot'.
>
> If you are standing next to a player on my team, or even behind him, I will hit
> my target on your pod every time. Again, you're making assumptions rather then
> statements of fact. Ask the people on this group with actually substabtial
> reverse IR experience how innacurate of a system it is.
No, you misunderstand. I'm talking about the size of your
sensor(sensor meaning transmission on the pack). With FIR, you can
decrease the width of your transmission by changing the focusing
optics, and you can change what area of the sensor molding on the pack
can be hit back changing the orientation of the IR sensors. With
reverse IR, the entire sensor casing is going to be lit with
reflecting and refracting light (infrared light) in the same way a
colored visible LED will do it. To alter this size, you have to
either change the material that the sensor cover is made of, change
the shape of the cover, or add in alot of little walls and such inside
the casing to block off the light.
This doesnt' need to be based on game experiance, it's physics. Any
way visible light behaves, IR will behave (well, except that IR is at
a lower frequency and suffers less attenuation from atmospheric
interferance, which is why you use it instead of, say, ultraviolet).
THE Great Unclean One
Plano
>
>
The Bitches Bastard
>time" systems?
Yeah it is....
xThanatoSx
Unclean
Just to clarify something on the above point: I'm assuming most the
games you played were of the standard variety, and as such you were
logged as a pack. There is a property within the handicapping settings
that can/does account for the "sensor cloud" effect you describe.
There's an "acceptable" delay in the time you're allowed to pull the
trigger and still score a hit soft-coded into each level. The lower
level you are, the greater this value (I think it's .4 seconds in the
case of a L1/gen pub). Default for competition games is .1, and you
can even make the sensors act like LQ without the cancelation at .01.
xThanatoSx
Laserforce Sacramento
Shawn K. Quinn
[$pam wrote:]
>>He told you to look at Darklight... or is that one of those "CLOSE to real
>>time" systems?
>
> Yeah it is....
From a practical standpoint, it is real time if the polling interval is
short enough. I vividly remember the early days of playing LazerRage in
Spring where the credits took around 5 seconds (possibly a bit shorter in a
few cases) to register after scoring a tag. The last time I played there,
it was around 1/4 to 1/2 second, the same as it had been after the tech
from Darklight came to tweak the system.
--
Shawn K. Quinn
Great Unclean
> Unclean
>
> Just to clarify something on the above point: I'm assuming most the
> games you played were of the standard variety, and as such you were
> logged as a pack. There is a property within the handicapping settings
> that can/does account for the "sensor cloud" effect you describe.
> There's an "acceptable" delay in the time you're allowed to pull the
> trigger and still score a hit soft-coded into each level. The lower
> level you are, the greater this value (I think it's .4 seconds in the
> case of a L1/gen pub). Default for competition games is .1, and you
> can even make the sensors act like LQ without the cancelation at .01.
>
>
> xThanatoSx
> Laserforce Sacramento
Good to see you still running around the newsgroups! I hadn't heard
about that..... not sure what you mean exactly. Do you mean that you
have a window of .4 seconds when pulling the trigger to line up with
the sensor? Please clarify. How is the world of Force these days?
xThanatoSx
It's not something you would have heard about because it's one of
those mostly esoteric things that doesn't come up very often :)
Basically - if you're locked onto an opposing players sensor and you
quickly flip your gun so that you're no longer targeting them, it's
still possible to score a hit provided you pull the trigger within the
"lock-on delay" time. So L1/Gen pub has .4 seconds to do this. By the
time you've hit L5/L6, the delay has worked its way down to .1
seconds, and it's all good. It sounds a little weird, but it does
work.
As for how things are on the Force side of things - not bad. We just
had our Internationals here in Sacramento a couple weeks ago, with
players representing from Australia and New Zealand as well as the US.
It was a hard week of competition that ended with my team winning :-D
Other than that - just more of the same.
xThanatoSx
Laserforce Sacramento
Great Unclean
> You seem to be confused about the relationship between realtime
> scoring and IR. Whether or not a system has foreward or reverse IR
> has nothing to do with whether or not it has realtime scoring. That
> is an issue involving pack communication with the central computer.
> The IR issues is ONLY related to what direction the pack information
> travels. Gun to pack, or pack to gun.
> THE Great Unclean One
> Plano
>
>
I'm truly shocked that you haven't tried to argue this with me yet......
The Bitches Bastard
>> scoring and IR. Whether or not a system has foreward or reverse IR
>> has nothing to do with whether or not it has realtime scoring. That
>> is an issue involving pack communication with the central computer.
>> The IR issues is ONLY related to what direction the pack information
>> travels. Gun to pack, or pack to gun.
>> THE Great Unclean One
>> Plano
>>
>>
>
>I'm truly shocked that you haven't tried to argue this with me yet......
>
>THE Great Unclean One
>Plano
>
Well then why hasn't anyone else figured it out? Why do games like Tron, Q-Zar,
etc... depend on the download? Why isn't LQ anywhere near realtime? Even
Darklight isn't true real time.
Great Unclean
> Well then why hasn't anyone else figured it out? Why do games like Tron, Q-Zar,
> etc... depend on the download? Why isn't LQ anywhere near realtime? Even
> Darklight isn't true real time.
>
>
>
> ha\/ok
> -------------------------------
> Legends of Lasertag
> Point Blank
You'll have to ask them. Probably because of cost and efficiency.
Why have true real time scoring? What does it really give you? Not
much, except an extra blurb on your advertisements. Systems like
tron, darklight, etc are close to real time and get nearly the
benefits.
Why was Photon able to use it when it is so old, and it be 'expensive'
or 'difficult' for current systems? The difference is in the
complexity of the equipment. Photon transmits a pack ID which you
pick up. Then, that is transmitted to the computer, which then
transmits that to the other player's vest to tell him he's
deactivated. You HAVE to have real time communication or packs won't
go down right when you hit them. Meanwhile, in more advanced
equipment, you are communicating alot more information. You have
individual sensor information, you have special power information, etc
etc. It takes alot more processing to take the info for which
different sensors on which pack have been hit, compare them to special
powers on the vest that hit them, compare that to the set point values
for each different sensor, compare that to the total shots fired and
total hits scored previously to get an accuracy bonus, calculate in
handicaps, and send that info back out. It can be done, but it isn't
worth the effort. Photon is only worrying about pack ID and clearing.
And clearing is probably done locally on the pack.
More valid than saying only reverse IR allows real time scoring is
saying that only reverse IR leads to packs not going down immediately
when hit. You already have to wait for the scoring pack to transmit
to the computer, which transmits to the hit pack for the pack to go
down, if there is any slowdown that pack might not immediately go
down.
Again, reverse IR, in and of itself, does not allow real time scoring
any more than foreward IR does.
Great Unclean
> Hey !! I played Star Laser Force, and I believe my wife had/has a
> players card from there too. (Good god I am old) When did SLF open ?
> What was the Patent number or your husbands full name ?
>
> Roundabout
> Jeff Ellis
>
I found the patent if anyone still cares. This link:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1='carter+III,+George'.INZZ.&s2=ISYMD-19870922&OS=IN/
will take you there. The patent number is 4695058 but for some reason
searching by the number alone doesn't take you to the correct patent.
The Bitches Bastard
Uhmm.... I don't know, typically the people involved in a sporting event like
to know whether they are winning or not. It just MIGHT have SOME SMALL effect
on how they're playing the game.
>Not
>much, except an extra blurb on your advertisements. Systems like
>tron, darklight, etc are close to real time and get nearly the
>benefits.
You wouldn't know....
>Meanwhile, in more advanced
>equipment, you are communicating alot more information.
More advanced is relative. I know FOR SURE when I pull a trigger whether it's a
hit, a miss, or a teamate hit. What other systems do? I can RUN without my
system getting sued out of existance when some 11 year old smacks his head into
a wall. I KNOW when I am on a target. I can see IN GAME whether my team is up
or down, who's gotten base, etc... IN REAL TIME (close enough isn't any near as
usefull).
What's more advanced? Being able to have things like rapid fire? Please....
>It can be done, but it isn't
>worth the effort.
Like I said... you wouldn't know.
>More valid than saying only reverse IR allows real time scoring is
>saying that only reverse IR leads to packs not going down immediately
>when hit.
Photon packs register a hit just as fast as LQ, Force, Storm, etc... when the
radio and boards are tuned properly. You're talking about the equipment used to
implement the technology (20 year old software, motherboards, radios, etc...)
not the technology itself.
>Again, reverse IR, in and of itself, does not allow real time scoring
>any more than foreward IR does.
Nor does inherently have any negative effects (other then minute power draw
increases) that you seem to think it does.
Rachel Weinstein
>
> I found the patent if anyone still cares. This link:
>
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net
ahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1='carter+III,+George'.I
NZZ.&s2=ISYMD-19870922&OS=IN/
>
> will take you there. The patent number is 4695058 but for some reason
> searching by the number alone doesn't take you to the correct patent.
>
> THE Great Unclean One
> Plano
That's the Photon patent.
Rachel
Roundabout
That is the Photon patent I already posted and the numbers if you enter
them into the query page will take you to a page that lists all the
patents that reference it. The lowest number is the same patent. If you
type in pn/ it will take you to that patent number. Look at the legend
below to search for whatever criteria you wish. Try "inventor"
in/carter-george-a gives you 3 more for him or in/weinstein-lee. The
larger the number the newer it is. You can also click on the "referenced
by" button and see all the inventions that refer to Photon as a part of
its technology. All pretty interesting. I wish I could view the pictures
and drawings better though.
R
Great Unclean
> >Why have true real time scoring? What does it really give you?
>
> Uhmm.... I don't know, typically the people involved in a sporting event like
> to know whether they are winning or not. It just MIGHT have SOME SMALL effect
> on how they're playing the game.
The new Darklight equipment updates every second. Not true real time,
but yeah.
> >Not
> >much, except an extra blurb on your advertisements. Systems like
> >tron, darklight, etc are close to real time and get nearly the
> >benefits.
>
> You wouldn't know....
Why? Because I've never played photon? Real time scoring isn't a
hard concept to grasp. Not sure the exact update speed on the new
Tron stuff, but it's also very fast if I remember from the last time I
played LT-11. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that a few
seconds of delay are going to have any real effect on your strategy in
the game.
> >Meanwhile, in more advanced
> >equipment, you are communicating alot more information.
>
> More advanced is relative. I know FOR SURE when I pull a trigger whether it's a
> hit, a miss, or a teamate hit. What other systems do? I can RUN without my
> system getting sued out of existance when some 11 year old smacks his head into
> a wall. I KNOW when I am on a target. I can see IN GAME whether my team is up
> or down, who's gotten base, etc... IN REAL TIME (close enough isn't any near as
> usefull).
>
> What's more advanced? Being able to have things like rapid fire? Please....
More advanced IS relative, but what I meant by that is equipment that
sends more information when it talks to the computer. Stuff with more
bells and whistles are going to need to send more info about how they
got hit, bla bla bla.
On a side note, your definition of 'advanced' seems to be that you
know whether or not your aim sucks before you fire. That's fine, if
that is what you truly consider advanced, but I just find it odd. And
the ability to run has nothing to do with equipment. Seeing the score
in game is important though.
> >It can be done, but it isn't
> >worth the effort.
>
> Like I said... you wouldn't know.
Why not? This isn't complicated here, this is basic electronics. If
I'm wrong on this, please give me some technical information. I'd be
interested, really.
> >More valid than saying only reverse IR allows real time scoring is
> >saying that only reverse IR leads to packs not going down immediately
> >when hit.
>
> Photon packs register a hit just as fast as LQ, Force, Storm, etc... when the
> radio and boards are tuned properly. You're talking about the equipment used to
> implement the technology (20 year old software, motherboards, radios, etc...)
> not the technology itself.
Right. I'm sure it does go down as quick. (well, as quick as a person
could notice) But you missed my point.
> >Again, reverse IR, in and of itself, does not allow real time scoring
> >any more than foreward IR does.
>
> Nor does inherently have any negative effects (other then minute power draw
> increases) that you seem to think it does.
The negitives I cited were not inherent to having reverse IR itself,
but the sensor halo problems I mentioned do come with having alot of
fog in an arena, because IR is just light. You can try to work around
this, and that is very possible, you said yourself you don't have
problems with that in Laurel, but it is still an issue to deal with,
as are the others I mentioned. It's just like what you consider
'advanced'. Certain drawbacks may be a bigger deal to one person than
another. That is not what I'm arguing. I simply stated why I
personally think foreward IR is a superior setup.
But you are changing the subject. The discussion was whether or not
realtime scoring is a result of reverse IR. You still have yet to
show me that I'm wrong about the answer being no.
The Bitches Bastard
>but yeah.
>
Updates what? Personal rank or team score?
>You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that a few
>seconds of delay are going to have any real effect on your strategy in
>the game.
Like I said, you wouldn't know. When you play a system where you can tell your
score, team score, who got base, and how much time is left real time you'll
understand what a valuable tool it is.
>On a side note, your definition of 'advanced' seems to be that you
>know whether or not your aim sucks before you fire.
Right. That's exactly what I said. One of the biggest frustrations with systems
like LQ, Darklight, Storm, etc... is you never know if your shot hit them. User
feedback is a must.
>And the ability to run has nothing to do >with equipment.
Tell that to these center operators. Why do you think Photon is the only system
to allow running?
>Why not? This isn't complicated here, this is basic electronics.
Have you ever DONE what you're talking about? Have you witnessed the effects?
Then quite simply, you wouldn't know.
>Right. I'm sure it does go down as quick. (well, as quick as a person
>could notice) But you missed my point.
No, your point is moot. If they go down just as quickly as any other systems,
your whole "Reverse IR sucks because it takes more time for the packs to
communicate" is completely invalid.
>The negitives I cited were not inherent to having reverse IR itself,
Well then WHY did you originally say Reverse IR systems are inferior? That's
what started all of this. Simply restate to, "I don't really have much
experience with reverse IR equipment, but I prefer forward IR games due to a
strange anomoly I experienced"
>The discussion was whether or not
>realtime scoring is a result of reverse IR. You still have yet to
>show me that I'm wrong about the answer being no.
I conceded that you're right on that, in the process we've shown that
A) You're basing your "halo" feelings on a handicap built into Force
B) The added power draw isn't even a factor
C) Communication with packs isn't noticably slower
D) Photon is the best system ever
Thanks, pull forward for you total
Great Unclean
> >The new Darklight equipment updates every second. Not true real time,
> >but yeah.
> >
>
> Updates what? Personal rank or team score?
both.
> >You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that a few
> >seconds of delay are going to have any real effect on your strategy in
> >the game.
>
> Like I said, you wouldn't know. When you play a system where you can tell your
> score, team score, who got base, and how much time is left real time you'll
> understand what a valuable tool it is.
Ummm... Tron? And you're really reaching if you are going to tell me
that because it isn't litterally real time it makes that much
difference. That is just dumb.
But if that's how you TRULY feel, than we can 'agree to disagree' on
that.
> >On a side note, your definition of 'advanced' seems to be that you
> >know whether or not your aim sucks before you fire.
>
> Right. That's exactly what I said. One of the biggest frustrations with systems
> like LQ, Darklight, Storm, etc... is you never know if your shot hit them. User
> feedback is a must.
You know if you hit them, they go down. Just like if I fire a gun, if
it hits them, they go down. If not, they don't go down.
What you mean is 'you never know if your shot is GOING to hit them'.
Well, if you feel a crutch for aim is necessary.... ;)
> >And the ability to run has nothing to do >with equipment.
>
> Tell that to these center operators. Why do you think Photon is the only system
> to allow running?
Because photon always has allowed running. I guess you could say that
it is a saftey issue, and that helmets help, but most places don't
want to even worry about the liability of people running around. It's
the same has two handed guns. If you want to say that the presence of
helmets contribute to allowing running, I will concede that point.
I'll revise to 'the ability to run has nothing to do with the design
of the electronics'.
> >Why not? This isn't complicated here, this is basic electronics.
>
> Have you ever DONE what you're talking about? Have you witnessed the effects?
> Then quite simply, you wouldn't know.
What? Program data transimission through radio modems? Yes.
> >Right. I'm sure it does go down as quick. (well, as quick as a person
> >could notice) But you missed my point.
>
> No, your point is moot. If they go down just as quickly as any other systems,
> your whole "Reverse IR sucks because it takes more time for the packs to
> communicate" is completely invalid.
You still miss my point. I never said that reverse IR sucks because
it takes more time. I said that it would be more valid for me to make
that statement than to say that reverse IR allows real time scoring
when foreward IR does not.
Note that I never said that it takes more time. Infact, in what you
quoted I specificially say that nobody can tell the difference from
the time. Although litterally, with identical equipment, one
receiving the command to shut off from another vests IR, and the other
receiving it from the computer, it would take a minute amount of time
more for the pack getting the info from the computer.
Foreward IR:
[shooting pack transmits] [IR travel (speed of light)] [receiving pack
processes] [pack turns off]
Reverse IR:
[shooting pack transmits (receives other packs IR, and broadcasts
signal to computer that you are hitting that pack)] [radio travel
(speed of light)] [computer revceives and processes signal] [computer
transmits to vest getting hit] [radio travel (speed of light)] [pack
receives and shuts down].
But as long as everything is running correctly, you can never tell the
difference in time.
> >The negitives I cited were not inherent to having reverse IR itself,
>
> Well then WHY did you originally say Reverse IR systems are inferior? That's
> what started all of this. Simply restate to, "I don't really have much
> experience with reverse IR equipment, but I prefer forward IR games due to a
> strange anomoly I experienced"
I said that I thought reverse IR is inferior. I did not say equipment
using reverse IR is inferior. You are assuming that I was saying
Photon is inferior to other systems. I did not make that statement.
Clearly LaserStar is inferior to Photon.
> >The discussion was whether or not
> >realtime scoring is a result of reverse IR. You still have yet to
> >show me that I'm wrong about the answer being no.
>
> I conceded that you're right on that, in the process we've shown that
> A) You're basing your "halo" feelings on a handicap built into Force
> B) The added power draw isn't even a factor
> C) Communication with packs isn't noticably slower
> D) Photon is the best system ever
A. no, the handicap in force could partially be an attempt to minimize
that. If you catch a whiff of someone's IR diffracting off some fog
or an object, the better players have less time to react to it before
pulling the trigger, so they have to be more accurate and have better
reflexes.
The handicap does not create the problem I stated. The nature of
light does.
B. I didn't say that it was necessarily a factor in Photon or any
other system. I said that it would 1. exist and 2. could be a factor.
Those are both true. Whether or not it creates a problem is up to
the designer.
C. True. Assuming everything is working correctly there should be no
noticeable difference. I never argued that.
D. Nostalgia is wonderful isn't it? ;)
But anyway the whole point of this discussion was that reverse IR does
not cause real time scoring, which you've conceded to me. Thus the
conversation is now done.
It's always fun discussing things with you.
The Bitches Bastard
>that because it isn't litterally real time it makes that much
>difference. That is just dumb.
I have played in games decided in the last two seconds. There was a game at
Armageddon this year that flipped after the last pack downloaded.
>You know if you hit them, they go down. Just like if I fire a gun, if
>it hits them, they go down. If not, they don't go down.
>
>What you mean is 'you never know if your shot is GOING to hit them'.
>Well, if you feel a crutch for aim is necessary.... ;)
Yeah cause I use the aiming crystal so much. You know, for someone who
constantly criticizes the manner in which I adress people you sure are acting
like an ass. I will play you in ANY system other then LQ, WITHOUT covering and
leaning and destroy you any day of the week.... but anyway.... Next time I come
to Dallas (early December) I'd be more then willing to put money on that.
No, I meant, you don't know if you hit them. If two people fire at the same
person, if you're sniping into a dogfight etc... It's one of my biggest
complaints with LQ.... At least with other system a sensor that's been hit
might light up and you could infer if you were shooting that specific target it
was your shot. In Photon, I know for sure.
> If you want to say that the presence of
>helmets contribute to allowing running, I will concede that point.
>I'll revise to 'the ability to run has nothing to do with the design
>of the electronics'.
How good of you to admit the truth.... We never specified that specifically
electronics were in question, we were talking about "equipment".
>What? Program data transimission through radio modems? Yes.
Using both technologies? Specifically with the equipment you're discussing,
i.e. Laserforce and Photon boards?
> I never said that reverse IR sucks because
>it takes more time.
Uhm... pretty much. Go back to your original post. What was your reasoning for
why R. IR is inferior?
>But as long as everything is running correctly, you can never tell the
>difference in time.
Then how could one be inferior to the other?
>I said that I thought reverse IR is inferior. I did not say equipment
>using reverse IR is inferior.
I'm pretty sure you did, but I'm not one of those sortthroughatonofoldposts
guys....
> You are assuming that I was saying
>Photon is inferior to other systems.
No, I was witnessing you pass of your opinion as some sort of fact.
>A. no, the handicap in force could partially be an attempt to minimize
>that. If you catch a whiff of someone's IR diffracting off some fog
>or an object, the better players have less time to react to it before
>pulling the trigger, so they have to be more accurate and have better
>reflexes.
Oh, so it makes the game more challenging... I see now what your complaint it.
>B. I didn't say that it was necessarily a factor in Photon or any
>other system. I said that it would 1. exist and 2. could be a factor.
> Those are both true. Whether or not it creates a problem is up to
>the designer.
Actually I don't recall any of these qualifying statements that you're now (in
hindsight and at the realization that you're being silly) inserting into old
posts.....
>D. Nostalgia is wonderful isn't it? ;)
I guess for you.... I'm lucky enough to still be able to play.
>But anyway the whole point of this discussion was that reverse IR does
>not cause real time scoring, which you've conceded to me. Thus the
>conversation is now done.
Nope, nice try though. The point of the discussion (since I'm the one who
replied to your initial post and originated the discussion) was that Reverse IR
is not inferior to Forward IR, which, you've conceded to me. Thanks....
>It's always fun discussing things with >you.
I bet you touch yourself while you do it....
Shawn K. Quinn
> Right. That's exactly what I said. One of the biggest frustrations with
> systems like LQ, Darklight, Storm, etc... is you never know if your shot
> hit them. User feedback is a must.
On Darklight I do, because their lights start flashing alternately with two
large yellow lights on the shoulder targets. And I get the "dink" that
means I have another credit. On Tron, it's also pretty obvious that I hit,
the obnoxiously bright white light is hard to miss.
--
Shawn K. Quinn
The Bitches Bastard
>large yellow lights on the shoulder targets.
The new gear....
>On Tron, it's also pretty obvious that I hit,
>the obnoxiously bright white light is hard to miss.
That's why I didn't say tron....
Great Unclean
> errah You must be drinkin cleany
>
> That is the Photon patent I already posted and the numbers if you enter
> them into the query page will take you to a page that lists all the
> patents that reference it. The lowest number is the same patent. If you
> type in pn/ it will take you to that patent number. Look at the legend
> below to search for whatever criteria you wish. Try "inventor"
> in/carter-george-a gives you 3 more for him or in/weinstein-lee. The
> larger the number the newer it is. You can also click on the "referenced
> by" button and see all the inventions that refer to Photon as a part of
> its technology. All pretty interesting. I wish I could view the pictures
> and drawings better though.
>
> R
............I knew it was the photon patent....but must have totally
missed you posting it the first time. Hmmm.
Shawn K. Quinn
[I wrote:]
>>On Darklight I do, because their lights start flashing alternately with
>>two large yellow lights on the shoulder targets.
>
> The new gear....
Version 5 doesn't do this? That's a real surprise.
--
Shawn K. Quinn
Great Unclean
> >What you mean is 'you never know if your shot is GOING to hit them'.
> >Well, if you feel a crutch for aim is necessary.... ;)
>
> Yeah cause I use the aiming crystal so much. You know, for someone who
> constantly criticizes the manner in which I adress people you sure are acting
> like an ass.
Haha, that was a joke. Note the " ;) " I included at the end of the
statement. Jeeze, lighten up.
I will play you in ANY system other then LQ, WITHOUT covering and
> leaning and destroy you any day of the week.... but anyway.... Next time I come
> to Dallas (early December) I'd be more then willing to put money on that.
We should! It will be fun either way. Sadly, tag choices are limited
in Dallas these says. We pretty much have UZ System T, Tron, and LQ.
LQ is out, Tron is pretty much out because it'll be really hard to not
lean playing that stuff out of habit. But a game of LT-11 would be
fun. UZ System T just blows with giant shotgun beams. You probably
would own me on that stuff because I don't play it nor like it.
> No, I meant, you don't know if you hit them. If two people fire at the same
> person, if you're sniping into a dogfight etc... It's one of my biggest
> complaints with LQ....
Of many. And they are deserved. LQ is horrible equipment. Although
I'm developing an appriciation for cancellation.
We've reached the tedious point where it is past the point of
discussion, so I'm done. Our opinions on reverse vs. foreward IR may
differ, but you admitted that reverse IR does not exclusivly lead to
real time scoring, which was my point.
I'll see you in December, probably.
darry...@yahoo.com
What the deal is, I made what I assume to be the very first Star Laser Force memories presentation on YouTube. Many links, including this page, is included in the video's description. And as I also stated, the photos are those of a sci-fi/fantasy nature for people just to look at as I talk away (due to having almost no photos, much less any video footage of S. Laser Force). SLF was also the THIRD laser tag arena in the country, not the second as I stated, as it turns out that Laser Zone in Chicago was second, just six months after the very first Photon, then SLF.
Enjoy, if anyone's left out there :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbYKZzP0xA