Who was faster? Secretariat or Seabiscuit?
Steven
impressed with the awesome speed and tenacity of the Biscuit. But I'm
curious, if the Biscuit had gone up against Secretariat in the Belmont
(on the day Secretariat won by 31 lengths) I wonder if the Biscuit
would have any chance.
Johndaigle1
Danzig
You reall can't compare horses of different eras. Too many things change
to make an accurate choice:shoes, nutrition, training methods, track
surfaces and so on.
Tim Yatcak
Also, a match vs. their competeting within the group of a race would
bring out totally different abilities.
At three, there were few in this century that had both the speed and
stamina of the son of Bold Ruler and that is not just this author's
opinion. Runs EACH fraction faster than the previous one on May 5th,
breaking the track record, then breaks the track record at Baltimore
making a move akin to one I have NEVER seen before or since in the
clubhouse turn, then goes each furlong at a 12 second clip over 12
furlongs.... His style (front end) would crush most others on the pace.
Also, wasn't Seabisuict better at four, not even coming into much
prominance till he was almost mature?
wolf again
> i think horses peaked in the 70s, and have been goin south ever since..
the facts more or less back you on this one. need only to look at
track records at the older tracks though i think s.a. and h.p are
faster sprips than 30 yrs. ago.
Morehits4u
>From: johnd...@aol.com (Johndaigle1)
>i think horses peaked in the 70s, and have been goin south ever since..
simply brilliant ... we cant wait for you to
elaborate
wolf again
exactually one of those who seek the acceptance of fellow posters.
wolf again
> Steven wrote:
> > I've just finished reading Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand and I'm so
> > impressed with the awesome speed and tenacity of the Biscuit. But I'm
> > curious, if the Biscuit had gone up against Secretariat in the Belmont
> > (on the day Secretariat won by 31 lengths) I wonder if the Biscuit
> > would have any chance.
>
> You reall can't compare horses of different eras. Too many things change
> to make an accurate choice:shoes, nutrition, training methods, track
> surfaces and so on.
darling and bitchy Tweedy, who got arrested on a n.y. flight for
telling stewardeses "do you know who you are talking to? when she was
rebuffed for asking for special treatment. had 100 on Prove out when
he gave sec. 3 lbs then beat him by 2-3 lengths. 2 weeks later another
bet against tweedy's meadow stable's 4 yr. old riva ridge in the gold
cup produced the same results. bitch tweedy refused to talk with media
after race, threw a fit when a mic was put in her face. the money won
was secondary to this, one of my favorite memories. who did sec.
actually beat? name one good horse! and who in the hell was Prove out?
sorry to deflate your idol. nothing personnal. just the facts.
lsj7
Then why do you howl so much? lol
--
lsj7
Their ethics are a short summary of police ordinances: for them the
most important thing is to be a useful member of the state, and to air
their opinions in the club of an evening; they have never felt the
homesickness for something unknown and far away, nor the depths which
consists in being nothing at all. ___________Soren Kierkegaard
Danzig
this regard it would be one thing, but horsemen experienced with
evaluation of the thoroughbred throughout this century have put him
there. I was NOT convinced until he was three.
As a pace handicapper the times are in a league akin to NONE other. I
have seen two races (in over 30 years of following the races) where the
winner got faster as the race progressed: one was Steinlein on the grass
at Santa Anita (on a surface and course where that happens) and Red in
the Derby. The CLOCK seldom lies, and even when it did at Pimlico, the
Form printed the actual times as much faster.
Horses are the stars NO MATTER what their human conterparets may do.
Believe you are letting a bad experience CLOUD the FACTS of this one.
Glad you mad money ....but did anyone ever mention Riva??? that's a new
addtion here isn't it?
wolf again
> From flag fall to the wire there was none like him. If I were alone in
> this regard it would be one thing, but horsemen experienced with
> evaluation of the thoroughbred throughout this century have put him
> there. I was NOT convinced until he was three.
>
> As a pace handicapper the times are in a league akin to NONE other. I
> have seen two races (in over 30 years of following the races) where the
> winner got faster as the race progressed: one was Steinlein on the grass
> at Santa Anita (on a surface and course where that happens) and Red in
> the Derby. The CLOCK seldom lies, and even when it did at Pimlico, the
> Form printed the actual times as much faster.
>
> Horses are the stars NO MATTER what their human conterparets may do.
> Believe you are letting a bad experience CLOUD the FACTS of this one.
> Glad you mad money ....but did anyone ever mention Riva??? that's a new
> addtion here isn't it?
ever. his next race at the spa he got bear by jerken's
ex-claimer,onion, his first try against 4 yr olds. though the race
smelled afoul. Belmonte did his dirty work. i totally detested bitch
tweedy it probably influenced my opinion. if i had a vote for the
eclipse horse of the year Prove Out win handily. it's about the money.
Erwin Wodarczak
again) did inscribe thusly:
>Danzig <tya...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<4G2Qb.2664$P51.419@clgrps12>...
>> Steven wrote:
>> > I've just finished reading Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand and I'm so
>> > impressed with the awesome speed and tenacity of the Biscuit. But I'm
>> > curious, if the Biscuit had gone up against Secretariat in the Belmont
>> > (on the day Secretariat won by 31 lengths) I wonder if the Biscuit
>> > would have any chance.
>>
>> You reall can't compare horses of different eras. Too many things change
>> to make an accurate choice:shoes, nutrition, training methods, track
>> surfaces and so on.
>
> Secritarit was the cassius clay of horse racing
That's Muhammad Ali, to you - a free man has the right to call himself
by whatever name he wants, and has the right to expect others to
respect his choice, regardless of their opinion of him - period.
[blah blah blah]
who did sec.
>actually beat? name one good horse!
Every horse of note in his generation including Sham (might have been
triple crown champion any other year), Riva Ridge (top handicap horse
of '73, would have been top 3-yr-old and Horse of the Year the year
before if his owners hadn't run him into the ground), Cougar II ('73
S.A. Handicap winner), Kennedy Road, Tentam, Big Spruce (top grass
runners). No cheap claimers there.
> and who in the hell was Prove out?
A good horse with a great trainer who beat a poorly-prepared
Secretariat in the Woodward.
>sorry to deflate your idol. nothing personnal. just the facts.
I see more opinions than facts.
Later,
E-man
-------------------
Erwin Wodarczak
erw...@shaw.ca || http://www.wodarczak.net/klimbim/
Erwin Wodarczak
again) did inscribe thusly:
>Danzig <tya...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<Y__Qb.13962$A7.2022@edtnps84>...
>> From flag fall to the wire there was none like him. If I were alone in
>> this regard it would be one thing, but horsemen experienced with
>> evaluation of the thoroughbred throughout this century have put him
>> there. I was NOT convinced until he was three.
> will concede that belmont romp was probably the most impressive race
>ever. his next race at the spa he got bear by jerken's
>ex-claimer,onion, his first try against 4 yr olds. though the race
>smelled afoul.
It's generally recognized that Secretariat was sick when he ran in the
Whitney. He eventually barely recovered in time to win the Marlboro
Cup, but I think Ron Turcotte has argued that he still wasn't
completely fit, and when he wasn't trained adequately for the Woodward
the combination was enough to make him vulnerable to Prove Out.
Belmonte did his dirty work. i totally detested bitch
>tweedy it probably influenced my opinion.
No kiddin'? ;-)
if i had a vote for the
>eclipse horse of the year Prove Out win handily. it's about the money.
??? I thought it was about the horses....
Erwin Wodarczak
(Steven) did inscribe thusly:
Assuming we could jump into the Wayback Machine with Mr. Peabody and
Sherman [obscure 60's cartoon reference], pick up Secretariat and
Seabiscuit at the peaks of their careers (w. jockeys) and set them on
a perfect track with the same horseshoes and tack, we'd still have to
agree on the distance (6f? 1 mile? 1 1/2 miles?).
Secretariat would have all the advantages of size, strength, and
general soundness. I would guess that "Da Biscuit" *might* have a
chance in a sprint, as "Big Red" was (usually) slow out of the gate -
but the longer the race the better it would be for Secretariat.
And then there are the all-important "intangibles" - who's more
competitive, who's tougher, who wants it more? I'm no horse
psychologist, so...<shrug>
It's interesting to note that Seabiscuit was likely an "x-factor"
horse (i.e. had an exceptionally large and powerful heart), as was
Secretariat. That would explain his speed, acceleration, and ability
to turn that speed off-and-on at will, leading to his great success as
a racer despite never being completely sound. See
<http://www.robertsfox.com/x_factor.htm> for more - the paragraph
about Seabiscuit is near the end of the article.
Ken Woodall
prime against anyone!
wolf again
> Ye verily, on 25 Jan 2004 03:29:51 -0800, wo...@provide.net (wolf
> again) did inscribe thusly:
>
> >Danzig <tya...@telus.net> wrote in message news:<4G2Qb.2664$P51.419@clgrps12>...
> >> Steven wrote:
> >> > I've just finished reading Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand and I'm so
> >> > impressed with the awesome speed and tenacity of the Biscuit. But I'm
> >> > curious, if the Biscuit had gone up against Secretariat in the Belmont
> >> > (on the day Secretariat won by 31 lengths) I wonder if the Biscuit
> >> > would have any chance.
> >>
> >> You reall can't compare horses of different eras. Too many things change
> >> to make an accurate choice:shoes, nutrition, training methods, track
> >> surfaces and so on.
of this group. opinions to be challenged or debated or in rare cases
agreed to. Facts: secretariet's record against 4 yr. olds was 2 wins-2
losses, Not quite up to "superhorse" standards. A real super horse
doesn't need excuses. The only excuse i support was Man o War's loss.
My anology would be if superman had to be rescued from a telephone
booth by the gothem f.d. because he didn't feel good that day or had
gotten out of shape for lack of working out. doesn't work.
Erwin Wodarczak
again) did inscribe thusly:
> Responding to "more opinions than facts" Opinions: thats the focus
>of this group. opinions to be challenged or debated or in rare cases
>agreed to. Facts: secretariet's record against 4 yr. olds was 2 wins-2
>losses,
So do the math and get yer facts straight:
Whitney Stakes - 2nd
Marlboro Cup - 1st (world record)
Woodward Stakes - 2nd
Man O'War Stakes - 1st (course record)
Canadian International - 1st
By my count that's 3 out of 5.
Not quite up to "superhorse" standards. A real super horse
>doesn't need excuses. The only excuse i support was Man o War's loss.
<advocate class="devil">If Man O'War was a real superhorse he should
have been able to catch Upset in spite of his poor start and/or his
jockey's incompetence.</advocate>
>My anology would be if superman had to be rescued from a telephone
>booth by the gothem f.d. because he didn't feel good that day or had
>gotten out of shape for lack of working out. doesn't work.
Kryptonite oughta do the trick....
Luramao
Breeders Cup, an invitational race, and all the top horses actually
showed up for the race, only to be completely blown away by Secretariat.
Then, to top off his season, he moved over to 'the proper surface',
where he again decimated the top turfers. How many recent 3 year olds
have done that?
I dont think Seabiscuit could have beat Secretariat on Belmont day of
1973.
But on the other hand, I wouldnt rank Secretariat as the best horse
ever, either. Man O' War belongs there. Seabiscuit was an excellent
horse, tough, durable, but he lost a few more races than the Big Red's.
Oh, and by the way, at a mile, in a fair race (no rabbits!), there IS
another horse that would beat them all.....
coopie
Alan Bloom
wrote:
>
>>My anology would be if superman had to be rescued from a telephone
>>booth by the gothem f.d. because he didn't feel good that day or had
>>gotten out of shape for lack of working out. doesn't work.
>
Ahem. For the sake of accuracy, Superman lived in Metropolis (as an
adult,) Batman lived in Gothem City.
jimmyt...@gmail.com
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
tya...@gmail.com
pppppppppppppp
jo...@amsbilling.com
Keep in mind that horses age wise mature at the age of 4 or 5. Secretariat put records out of reach of all horses when he was 3. so factor in how much faster he could have gone as an adult. he was a child when he put records out of reach. Seabiscuit was older when he finally got a good trainer and owner. but there has been any horse before or since Secretariat, that was Pegisis like he was.
Wolfagain
Sy etjathg
> I've just finished reading Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenbrand and I'm so
> impressed with the awesome speed and tenacity of the Biscuit. But I'm
> curious, if the Biscuit had gone up against Secretariat in the Belmont
> (on the day Secretariat won by 31 lengths) I wonder if the Biscuit
> would have any chance.
Almost IMPOSSIBLE to compare horses of different generations as well