Order of the Mithril Star, Reformed Druids of Gaia, Sequoia Pagan Alliance
Ludwig Prinn
founders of the above groups. There is a current PR issue in which
these two frauds are perpetuating a rumour about discrimination
against them regarding Karen being fired from her job for embezzling,
sexual harassment, and drug dealing on the premises.
Yes, this is about the little blowup between Pathfinders Books and
Ellis and Karen Arseneau. At first, I figured that it was pretty much
just between the three of us, since it was my call as a business owner
to fire her. I didn't even mind when Karen posted her version of the
events, figuring that they both just wanted to blow off steam. I was
more than willing to let it go, but now that Ellis has not only
continued but escalated the personal attacks on myself, and having
been asked repeatedly for my side of the story, I've decided to post
the truth.
Okay, here we go. I did my best to refrain from telling the community
ALL the events that transpired at the end of last year at Pathfinders,
but since El and Karen are both posting multiple versions of "their
side" of the story, exonerating themselves from all wrongdoing, I have
received numerous requests for "my side". Also, I just want to lay the
whole thing to rest because it's a tempest in a teacup and it's
beginning to annoy me.
First of all, I'd like to say that I did really appreciate Karen's
help in getting the store up and running. She had openly volunteered
and was more than willing to work for a commission on her sales, which
was much larger at Pathfinders than it would be at any other retail
store. It would have been very difficult to do it all by myself,
although I could have gotten by. I noticed right away that she was
very eager to help and actually started out working seven days a week.
She also began making some very pointed and extremely graphic sexual
comments to me, making it perfectly clear that she was in command of
impressive oral talents and was more than willing to demonstrate them
on me.
I played it off for as long as I could, feigning ignorance. However,
it became extremely uncomfortable when she began repeatedly telling me
in great detail how Ellis "couldn't get it up" anymore, and how she
was just dying for a "nice big stiff one", etc etc. She persisted in
this even after I repeatedly told her I wasn't comfortable with the
conversation, and that El probably wouldn't like her broadcasting his
shortcomings as a man and husband.
It took several weeks of this prolonged inappropriate behavior to get
it across to her that I wasn't interested in her in any way, and she
responded by telling me she was getting "burnt out" and needed some
days off, which was fine with me. After she cut her days back to four,
she began insisting that I NOT be there on her days, on the pretense
that I "needed some time off". I figured at first that it was about
the sexual rejection thing, but I found out that money was even more
important to her motivation. I overlooked the various acts of
moneygrubbing, even the fact that they had put their "free
teachings" (which they normally distributed online, being nothing more
than bits of various wiccan books chopped up and regurgitated) onto CD
and put them on sale for twenty dollars! I overlooked the double-
dipping (buying something on an employee discount AND collecting a
commission on the sale), and purchasing items for others on her own
discount. On numerous occasions, I would just hand Karen large amounts
of money (in one instance over $350 I'd earmarked for a product order)
when she would be sobbing about being broke because El couldn't bring
home any commissions. I notice that little fact also didn't make it
into either Ellis' or Karen's version of these events.
At first I was happy for the free time, but I would come back to the
store and see that she'd basically spent her time downloading video
games. I also began receiving complaints from customers that they
would walk in and nobody would come out to help them, or that when she
did come out, she'd be short and dismissive as if they were
interrupting something important. It was actually a while before I
found out what that "something important" was. We'll come back to this
point later.
I also began receiving complaints from my female customers, both in
and out of the regular coffee group, that Karen was making sexual
comments, leering suggestively at their bodies, touching them, and
making various inappropriate suggestions. Being direct, I went to
Karen about this, who seemed genuinely hurt and insisted that she must
have been misunderstood, and at the time I believed her. But the
complaints continued, and I had to have the same conversation with
Karen several times during her stay at the store. Several complaints
also came back to me from the "campout" (in which campers paid an
exhorbitant fee to provide E&K with a posh hotel room while they slept
on the ground), concerning El's various comments, both the sexually
harassing ones and the ones bashing any form of LHP traditions. In
fact, after word got out that Karen had been fired from Pathfinders,
several people came forward and said that they were once again
comfortable coming back to events hosted there, having left
specifically because of Karen's creepy sexual behavior.
Contrary to El's current version of the story, two of the complainants
were at the campout and heard his comments directly. I myself remember
Karen's various sexual comments about two specific SPA members from
the same campout the year before. I have since had stories get back to
me about the last campout I attended, in which Karen had been bragging
about having hidden in some bushes so she could watch me change my
clothes to go swimming, a thought that both creeps me out and makes me
sick to my stomach. For all El's boasting about being "pagan elders"
and "community leaders", neither of them seem to have the slightest
idea of what real leadership is.
I also began hearing comments from people about the things El was
saying about the store, although he never dared say anything to my
face. They were typically belligerent comments about the LHP, the
store being "darksided", about all the "evil" going on there, blah
blah blah. I asked him directly about this on multiple occasions, only
to have him drop his eyes to the floor and deny the whole thing.
This was around the same time we all participated in a ritual out at
Deb's house to protect her property. At the beginning of the ritual,
both El and Karen insisted on being permitted to smoke marijuana with
my nine-year-old daughter standing right there with us, and they were
very put out when told in no uncertain terms that I didn't want my
daughter to be in her first group ritual in a cloud of pot smoke. Even
the owner of the property told them that she didn't want them smoking
pot on her property, which only agitated them even more. After that,
El trailed along behind the entire group, making snide, childish
comments about the ritual and everyone in it, deliberately attempting
to disrupt Deb's protection ritual because he didn't get to smoke pot
in front of children.
Every now and then during the year, I would be working Karen's days as
she was often prone to taking a week or two off at a time.
Periodically, and always on her days so I know it was planned, one of
"her people" would come in with a jar, baggie, or on one occasion an
entire grocery bag of marijuana as a "dropoff" for Karen, and when I
told them they couldn't just "drop off" marijuana for her in my place
of business, they all made comments to the effect that it was pretty
typical for them to just "drop off" large amounts of marijuana in my
store, and others to get their "hookup" there as well.
The more Karen was absent from work, the more of her days I was having
to cover, and more and more of these incidents occurred. Quite often,
someone would come in empty handed and ask for Karen and, finding out
she wasn't there, they would become agitated and say they needed to
see her right away. I always asked these people if there were
something I could help them with, Reiki, books, candles, oils,
whatever, and they always said that they needed her for something
other than what the store offered. One guy even told me outright that
he'd gotten marijuana from Karen in the store, during working hours,
more than once.
The most egregious one was three girls (not one guy) who came in,
obviously tweakers from their faces and mannerisms, and when they
found out Karen wasn't there and I didn't know where to find her, one
of the girls almost collapsed and had to be led from the store in
tears by her friends. ONE time, could be a misunderstanding, TWO times
could be a mistake, but more than a half dozen times I had junkies
coming into the store on Karen's days, looking for her in obvious
withdrawal.
Coming toward the end of November, I also began putting together
another pattern - people coming in (again on Karen's days) saying that
they'd been unable to find the store's website again. The story was
always the same, that they'd come into the store looking for a
particular item, and karen had talked them out of buying it at the
store, offering them instead a similar item from "the store's
website". She was robbing customers from Pathfinders and directing
those sales to her own web business, telling people it was the
Pathfinders website so they were none the wiser. This was the
"something important" that Karen was doing in the office all the time,
stealing money from my place of business. Since El was recently
convicted of stealing from a job he'd worked in Oregon, this came as
no surprise to me.
So, for the inappropriate sexual behavior, the stealing of my
customers, the dealing of drugs in my place of business, I fired
Karen. I was not pretending to be some kind of "pagan elder" (whatever
that's supposed to mean), but as a business owner it was my call to
make, and I made it in the best interests of the business and the
community. El immediately began threatening me with "the pagan
community" and saying he was withdrawing the support of the Sequoia
Pagan Alliance, even though neither of them had been to a single one
of their own meetings in several months. I was fine with seeing them
go, and not worried at all about El's various silly threats. He also
attempted to change the Pathfinders schedule and announced repeatedly
that no more coffee nights were happening at the store, despite the
fact that he had never been given any sort of authority to dictate the
event schedule at Pathfinders. The fact that they had entirely lost
interest in the meetings of their own group (not coming to meetings,
not maintaining public notice of meetups, etc) only highlights this.
So I posted the store's "no drugs" policy on the SPA list, discussing
the problem without naming names, and El promptly removed the post and
unsubbed me (this was while Karen was claiming they had no internet
access). El claims he censored and unsubbed me because I'm not a
"pagan elder", although there were plenty of people on the list who
aren't "pagan elders" who were permitted to stay and post. He also
claims I slandered Karen, despite the fact that I did not name names
in my post (and that "slander" is "libel" when in print, and it has to
be false to qualify for either label). She then offered "her side" of
the story to anyone who would email her for it, and apparently nobody
did because she went ahead and posted it in toto on the SPA list. In
her version, there were numerous departures from the truth, although
she herself did actually admit to others that she had been receiving
and distributing drugs at Pathfinders, although she "thought she was
being discreet".
Also in her version, the three tweaker girls turned into El's dim
recollection of a man with Muscular Dystrophy, although El's later
account of the same story had the man showing up after she'd been
fired, not before. El's version also transformed the "young man" into
a "wiccan high priest", to characterize my firing of Karen as an
attack on Wicca as a whole, and his diagnosis changed from Muscular
Dystrophy to Cerebral Palsy too. In fact, reading over her original
story, and El's retelling after a couple months, there are a number of
glaring discrepancies between their versions of the same story.
Her version of the "truth" is available here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sequoiapaganalliance/message/7169
And his version of the "truth" is available here:
http://redwoodcoastviews.blogspot...s-of-retired-pagan-networker.html
If, as they claim, this "Wiccan High Priest" is the person they claim
he is, and he feels offended by his mistaken assumption that I was
talking about him when I referred to the three tweaker girls, he is
more than welcome to meet with me and I'll be more than happy to make
a public apology for the misunderstanding.
To deepen the disgust, El's version of "the story" openly slams the
person he selected to take over the Sequoia Pagan Alliance:
"She's a young Druid, and not all that experienced in the ways of the
force, and I had given her, as mentioned, carte-blanche. One of her
roomates was one of the LHP non-pagans that had quit, so she invited
her back in. And eventually all of the other malcontents were invited
back. Meetups are now happening at her house, and they've had other
events as well.
I have to admit, even though I gave our young Druid "carte-blanche"
for Spa, I feel betrayed. I would think that loyalty to ones Patriarch
(me) and ones Archdruid (Ceridwen) would trump that to a roommate.
But, then she is very young, and the young make mistakes so as to
learn. Or, maybe this kind of loyalty is "old school." I don't know."
So, after all her hard work organizing events and supporting SPA, the
roommate is now suddenly declared a "non-pagan"? And the new SPA
leader is some kind of "noob" who's expected to "be loyal" to (read:
obey) her "elders", and is a "betrayer" when she does what she feels
is right to bring the community back together? So now what's all this
talk about loyalty? In my neck of the woods, loyalty is supposed to go
both ways.
And really, what's all this about being a "Patriarch"? Isn't that sort
of, well, patriarchal? Grand and lofty titles are one thing, but it's
just sad and pathetic to trade the same two titles back and forth
between each other, lording it over some online discussion group like
a virtual fiefdom.
And for the record, Pathfinders was not "evicted". We were in fact
offered a new three-year lease, which we declined. We then had the
option of a month-to-month contract at decreased rent, which we also
declined for the same reasons. These are the facts, and if anyone
thinks we were evicted, the paperwork would be in public records at
the courthouse. I'd like to see them.
Bearing in mind that there are three sides to every story, I fully
encourage anyone who has any questions or issues with these events to
contact me personally and discuss them openly. I had hoped that this
would blow over, but apparently it was just going to escalate until it
tore the local community in two, and that doesn't benefit anyone.
Noinden
Theoneflasehaddock
> This is a public announcement
<snip>
Damn, that sounds like one hell of a pain in the ass.
I hope they can find a distraction and let that all be put to rest.
Ren
> This is a public announcement concerning Ellis and Karen Arseneau,
> founders of the above groups. There is a current PR issue in which
> these two frauds are perpetuating a rumour about discrimination
> against them regarding Karen being fired from her job for embezzling,
> sexual harassment, and drug dealing on the premises.
And I thought my life was full of drama, Ludwig. It is my hope that
you, El and Karen will find a common ground for peace. You have stated
your side of the story quite clearly.
Ludwig Prinn
wrote:
Unfortunately, that may be a long time coming. Ellis works at
Gottschalk's selling furniture, but they're filing for bankruptcy so
pretty soon he's going to be on the bread line with unlimited time on
his hands, and nothing to do but sit at home and stew over this.
Ludwig Prinn
There will be no peace. They've made that much perfectly clear. El and
Karen, mostly El, will never shut their mouths until someone shuts it
for them.
Noinden
UGH sounds like some people I know in my community.
Ludwig Prinn
I just wanted to get the word out, since I know these people used to
troll for new members on Usenet. Even now, they just managed to bilk
some poor sap in Alaska out of enough money for them to put on their
summer gathering again. I can't believe how low they would sink, but
apparently there's no ground floor in Hell.
Noinden
>
> - Show quoted text -
heh
Some people love power, some people love Knowlege and some people love
(melo) drama.
Master Ludwig Prinn
Yeah well, that said, these people need more mellow and less drama.
Noinden
>
> - Show quoted text -
They are pagans right? I don't think that is possible ;) Mind you I a
biased given having had a similar situation TWICE in the last year
Ludwig Prinn
They claim to be pagans, but most of their life seems to revolve
around smoking enormous amounts of marijuana and watching the SciFi
channel on teevee. They have a picnic once a year, and a campout once
a year (although they themselves don't actually soil themselves on the
actual "ground" - they sleep in a hotel room with a hot tub). Other
than that, they don't actually DO anything. I've teased them for years
about participating in one of the local Earth Day cleanups - after
all, being Druids they should be all over that, right? Never so much
as a peep out of them over it. There's always some excuse why they
can't be bothered.
I guess it's the blatant hypocrisy that really ticks me off. They
claim to be druids but can't be bothered to help out with a cleanup.
They claim to be pagans but bilk their followers out of thousands of
dollars in cash at a time. They claim to be a tax-exempt charitable
organization but they're not. They prey on the women in their
community, they smoke pot in front of children, they throw their own
people to the wolves over personal matters, they demand loyalty but
show none to anyone else.
Bleh, it's already all been said.
Noinden
ones who actually do stuff, and they can be just as bad.
I’ve found that I am distancing myself more and more from this sort of
“pagan” as I can’t keep my trap shut. When I don’t keep my trap shut I
get mobbed (my back is just healing from one two years ago, and now I
have a new one to deal with, while I go through my divorce).
I always wondered why the people in the Martial arts community looked
at me strange when I said I was a Pagan and Druid in specifics…. It’s
this sort of loon!
> Bleh, it's already all been said.- Hide quoted text -
Hope
It is the same in any organization--religious, social, whatever. The
people who are sincere and who try to follow a path with integrity get
smeared with some of the excrement that gets spread around by the nut
jobs, the con artists, the megalomaniacs, and the fanatics. A couple
of bad apples can prejudice the world against a thousand people who
are trying to do things right.
The worst damage never comes from outside. It's always an inside
job. These jack-offs ruin the credibility of good people and keep
them from being able to affect the world positively, and they turn
sincere seekers off with their crap. And it is my belief that when
they make the choice to drop their nuclear pebbles in the pond, they
make the choice to end up being held accountable for the whole pond of
chaos they created, times three. I wouldn't want to be in their
shoes.
aine
Sorry bout the earthquakes..I was aiming a lower life in your area.
Maybe I opened a demon portal.
aine
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW..didn't anyone tell you it is in the water you drink and air you
breathe in that area? I started reading the Sequoia Pagan Alliance
groups because I had personal problems with someone in the area. I
came back to arw and thought it tame!
I swear, you would think they would all be mellow but dang..
sar.chasm
>
> This is a public announcement concerning Ellis and Karen Arseneau,
> founders of the above groups. There is a current PR issue in which
> these two frauds are perpetuating a rumour about discrimination
> against them regarding Karen being fired from her job for embezzling,
> sexual harassment, and drug dealing on the premises.
>
I'm sure you are taking all necessary steps to correct this situation.
aine
Ludwig Prinn
This is part of it. I know they used to advertise their "order" on
these newsgroups, so I'm hoping to hit the same audience and let
people know to be careful of these two frauds El and Karen. It
wouldn't be so bad, if I hadn't seen them both with my own eyes,
laughing with glee over the hundreds and hundreds of dollars they
bilked people out of for El's "legal defense fund", or the money they
bilked people out of for their "temple fee" (basically a moving fund),
and the money they *continue* to bilk people out of, all because they
spend all their money on marijuana instead of paying rent and bills.
sar.chasm
>
>This is part of it. I know they used to advertise their "order" on
>these newsgroups, so I'm hoping to hit the same audience and let
>people know to be careful of these two frauds El and Karen. It
>wouldn't be so bad, if I hadn't seen them both with my own eyes,
>bilked people out of for El's "legal defense fund", or the money they
>bilked people out of for their "temple fee" (basically a moving fund),
>and the money they *continue* to bilk people out of, all because they
>spend all their money on marijuana instead of paying rent and bills.
>
We can probably anticipate the their revisionist responses denying these
activities, unless they don't post to these groups.
Ludwig Prinn
I could personally give a fat rat's ass about their revisionist
responses. This wasn't for their benefit. They're so deep in pot smoke
and delusions of grandeur that they probably believe that I was trying
all along to usurp their "global druid empire" because their little e-
list is such an earthshaking force of druidic magical and political
power.
Their response will probably contain several turns of phrase from
tonights Scifi Channel lineup.
sar.chasm
> "sar.chasm" wrote:
> > "Ludwig Prinn" wrote:
>
> >This is part of it. I know they used to advertise their "order" on
> >these newsgroups, so I'm hoping to hit the same audience and let
> >people know to be careful of these two frauds El and Karen. It
> >wouldn't be so bad, if I hadn't seen them both with my own eyes,
> >bilked people out of for El's "legal defense fund", or the money they
> >bilked people out of for their "temple fee" (basically a moving fund),
> >and the money they *continue* to bilk people out of, all because they
> >spend all their money on marijuana instead of paying rent and bills.
>
> We can probably anticipate the their revisionist responses denying these
> activities, unless they don't post to these groups.
>
>I could personally give a fat rat's ass about their revisionist
>responses. This wasn't for their benefit.
>
I realize that. You're aiming for those interested parties who were, or may
become, involved in their shenangans, (and regardless of any
spin-doctoring).
>
>They're so deep in pot smoke
>and delusions of grandeur that they probably believe that I was trying
>all along to usurp their "global druid empire" because their little e-
>list is such an earthshaking force of druidic magical and political power.
>
False beliefs can often lead to such delusions.
>
>Their response will probably contain several turns of phrase from
>tonights Scifi Channel lineup.
>
You know to exhale, squeeze the 'trigger' slowly, lead the target and not to
anticipate the recoil ... so, there's little more to add until they respond.
If they do.
Master Ludwig Prinn
> "Ludwig Prinn" <masterpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "sar.chasm" wrote:
> > > "Ludwig Prinn" wrote:
>
> > >This is part of it. I know they used to advertise their "order" on
> > >these newsgroups, so I'm hoping to hit the same audience and let
> > >people know to be careful of these two frauds El and Karen. It
> > >wouldn't be so bad, if I hadn't seen them both with my own eyes,
> > >laughing with glee over the hundreds and hundreds of dollars they
> > >bilked people out of for El's "legal defense fund", or the money they
> > >bilked people out of for their "temple fee" (basically a moving fund),
> > >and the money they *continue* to bilk people out of, all because they
> > >spend all their money on marijuana instead of paying rent and bills.
>
> > We can probably anticipate the their revisionist responses denying these
> > activities, unless they don't post to these groups.
>
> >I could personally give a fat rat's ass about their revisionist
> >responses. This wasn't for their benefit.
>
> I realize that. You're aiming for those interested parties who were, or may
> become, involved in their shenangans, (and regardless of any
> spin-doctoring).
I've already been contacted by a number of people from their past,
people who were *also* bilked out of large sums of money by El and
Karen. I'm wondering if there's a statute of limitations for
defrauding people or impersonating a charitable organization.
> You know to exhale, squeeze the 'trigger' slowly, lead the target and not to
> anticipate the recoil ... so, there's little more to add until they respond.
> If they do.
I know they've sent out a flurry of emails to people they imagine to
be their allies, most of whom came directly to me about it. So far, no
public response though.
cons...@gmail.com
You have my sympathy for what you have gone through and
my respect for your standing up to two bullies exposing them
for what they are and what they do.
Con
Stacey
Ludwig Prinn says...
Oh I know, I know. They haven't been here in a while except to advertise, and
even that's been awhile. There was a stink about them here in 2005. I've been
in a similar position to you where it came to them as well. I am on the RDNA
list and saw your post there. Folks on the list there have experienced them
before and it's been quite a brouhaha no one wants to visit again.
I don't visit it any more for various reasons, OMS has a very fancy website and
newsletter that make themselves look quite active. I might know who is the one
sponsoring the next campout. I have learned to stay out of that business and
let people find out for themselves.
Ludwig Prinn
> In article <0b60c055-02a9-4a87-81e7-b3674daa5...@s14g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Ludwig Prinn says...
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Feb 24, 1:49=A0pm, "sar.chasm" <sar.ch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "Ludwig Prinn" <masterpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > This is a public announcement concerning Ellis and Karen Arseneau,
> >> > founders of the above groups. There is a current PR issue in which
> >> > these two frauds are perpetuating a rumour about discrimination
> >> > against them regarding Karen being fired from her job for embezzling,
> >> > sexual harassment, and drug dealing on the premises.
>
> >> I'm sure you are taking all necessary steps to correct this situation.
>
> >This is part of it. I know they used to advertise their "order" on
> >these newsgroups, so I'm hoping to hit the same audience and let
> >people know to be careful of these two frauds El and Karen. It
> >wouldn't be so bad, if I hadn't seen them both with my own eyes,
> >laughing with glee over the hundreds and hundreds of dollars they
> >bilked people out of for El's "legal defense fund", or the money they
> >bilked people out of for their "temple fee" (basically a moving fund),
> >and the money they *continue* to bilk people out of, all because they
> >spend all their money on marijuana instead of paying rent and bills.
>
> Oh I know, I know. They haven't been here in a while except to advertise, and
> even that's been awhile. There was a stink about them here in 2005. I've been
> in a similar position to you where it came to them as well. I am on the RDNA
> list and saw your post there. Folks on the list there have experienced them
> before and it's been quite a brouhaha no one wants to visit again.
Oh really? Do tell.
Email is fine if you'd rather not post.
Stacey Weinberger
Oh really? Do tell.
Please email me offlist.
Stacey