Here is a solution : Have FREE SOLAR panels put on your house
Tim Padden
panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
more information please visit www.solardays.com or call me at
512-788-5281 ** citize...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
feedback on this . -Tim
Chuck Whealton
OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
I mean in the "ideal world", this wouldn't SOUND like a bad idea.
And assuming it is legitimate, what if rates somehow (unlikely, I know)
drop BELOW the 2005 rates you mention here? And why 2005 rates when
we're about to hit 2007?
Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Mike Payne
correctly, then it says the homeowner is responsible for all repairs and
maintenance to the system. If it breaks you have to pay to have it fixed.
While it is broken you have to pay Citizenre for the electricity it should
have produced while it was broken. I presume this is to encourage you to
pay to have it fixed even if you don't have the money at the time. There
doesn't seem to be any reason for them to install high quality product the
way the deal is written. Unless the price of electricity goes down AND you
sign a long term contract with them there is nothing in this deal for the
homeowner, except extra holes on your roof and a higher insurance bill.
It assumes you want to be green and that is why you are doing it. I could
of course be wrong on all these points I have not talked with the dealer.
mike
"Chuck Whealton" <chuck_w...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167315853.5...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
zzbu...@netscape.net
Chuck Whealton wrote:
> Tim Padden wrote:
> > I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> > panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
> > energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
> > rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
> > maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
> > of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
> > deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
> > of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
> > more information please visit www.solardays.com or call me at
> > 512-788-5281 ** citize...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
> > feedback on this . -Tim
>
> OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
> stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
It's easy enough to check with the PUC and BBB.
Since that's the only way you can get
a permit to install roof panels.
> I mean in the "ideal world", this wouldn't SOUND like a bad idea.
>
> And assuming it is legitimate, what if rates somehow (unlikely, I know)
> drop BELOW the 2005 rates you mention here? And why 2005 rates when
> we're about to hit 2007?
Probably, because energy companies base their
rates on last year's weather and farm reports.
Since the IRS is out there looking for
Government Chisler's.
Derek Broughton
>
> Chuck Whealton wrote:
>> Tim Padden wrote:
>> > I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
>> > panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
>> > energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
>> > rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
>> > maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
>> > of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
>> > deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
>> > of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
>> > more information please visit www.solardays.com or call me at
>> > 512-788-5281 ** citize...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
>> > feedback on this . -Tim
>>
>> OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
>> stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
>
> It's easy enough to check with the PUC and BBB.
> Since that's the only way you can get
> a permit to install roof panels.
PUC & BBB? Public Utilities Commission? They would generally have to
approve grid connections but not have anything to do with actual permits
for installing panels. BBB only means Better Business Bureau to me, and
they don't have anything to do with permits, but are always a good place to
check up on companies like this.
--
derek
Anthony Matonak
...
> OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
> stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
>
> I mean in the "ideal world", this wouldn't SOUND like a bad idea.
It sounds too good to be true. Usually things that sound too good to
be true are not true. What's the catch? I don't know. Perhaps we
should ask where the company expects to make a profit in this deal.
> And assuming it is legitimate, what if rates somehow (unlikely, I know)
> drop BELOW the 2005 rates you mention here? And why 2005 rates when
> we're about to hit 2007?
Rates don't drop but even if they did, I don't think this company
expects to make a profit on the electricity they sell. They are
going to make their money somewhere else and it might, as one of
the other posts mentioned, come from some loophole in the contract.
Anthony
zzbu...@netscape.net
Derek Broughton wrote:
> zzbu...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >
> > Chuck Whealton wrote:
> >> Tim Padden wrote:
> >> > I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> >> > panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
> >> > energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
> >> > rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
> >> > maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
> >> > of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
> >> > deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
> >> > of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
> >> > more information please visit www.solardays.com or call me at
> >> > 512-788-5281 ** citize...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
> >> > feedback on this . -Tim
> >>
> >> OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
> >> stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
> >
> > It's easy enough to check with the PUC and BBB.
> > Since that's the only way you can get
> > a permit to install roof panels.
>
> PUC & BBB? Public Utilities Commission? They would generally have to
> approve grid connections but not have anything to do with actual permits
> for installing panels.
I didn't say that they gave permits, I said they would know.
Since getting permits is something you get from
idiot like George Allen, rather than energy companies.
LM
> I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> feedback on this . -Tim
>
If you want to deal with a company that changes it terms without even
bothering to inform you, then this company is for you :)
//lm
From their website:
1. ACCEPTANCE OF TERMS
Citizenre provides its service to you, subject to the following Terms of
Service ("TOS"), which may be updated by us from time to time without
notice to you.
// The rest of the drivel snipped...
some...@somewhere.com
<chuck_w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Interesting concept. There is a security deposit up front - $450 was
a stated figure, so a scam is not out of the question. $450 to a
company that goes belly up and dissapears? It happens all the time.
When you are talking about my home, which is my major investment,
nobody is going to get 45 cents, much less $450 from me without my
seeing a business street address, licence, list of other customers,
BBB rating, etc.. When something is permanently affixed to a home,
there is the possibility of mechanic liens, muddying of title, and all
sorts of nasty surprises, regardless of any "contract." For instance,
I noted on the website that if the house was sold, the new mortgage
company would have to be willing to subrogate. That waves a red
warning flag for me.
On a practical level, what happens if installation is subcontracted
and the panels are owned by a third party? The subcontractor can
place a mechanics lein on the house if not paid by Sdays, and the
owner of the panels may remove them without recourse if that company
goes belly up.
This is net metering, which raises some other issues. Aside from the
"green" aspect, there is little or no advantage to the homeowner. Say
the rate is dropped a penny a KWH for power purchased this way.
Figure a use of 50 KWH each day from the grid. The savings over a
year would be $182.50. However, the photos show 8 panels. Figure an
extremely generous 125 watts per panel and an 8 hour day of full
output every day. That is 8 KWH a day. Eight pennies per day equals
$29.20 in savings per YEAR.
Investing the $450 security deposit at 5% interest in a CD or savings
account will generate $22.50. $6.70 net savings a year. Woo hoo!
It gets trickier. Net metering in some states means the homeowner
turns the meter backwards, but in others, the power has to be sold at
the normal rate the power company pays, which can be considerably
lower than retail. In those states, the homeowner gets a small credit
from the power company, but then pays for that same power again from
Sdays.
Say the power company pays 50% of the end user rate for purchased
power from the solar array. $100 of power purchased by the homeowner
= $50 when the same amount of power is sold back to the power company.
Say Sdays gives a 25% reduction on power purchased from them - power
generated by the panels. The homeowner pays Sdays $75 for that $100
worth of grid power.
Now combine the two. The homeowner uses half solar and half grid
power in a month. If purchased from the grid, the cost is $200.
Homeowner now pays Sdays $75 for their half. At first glance his bill
from the grid is only $100, saving him $25, but that is NOT the case.
The grid charges $200 for the total power used, less a $50 credit for
the solar power it purchases back from the homeowner. The grid bill
is then $150. Add the Sdays bill, and the homeowner has paid $150 +
$75 = $225 for $200 worth of power. Whoops! In that case, the whole
idea doesn't save, but sucks money.
I suspect that the real way Sdays intends to make money is from a
multitude of sources. Buying panels in bulk can reduce costs for a
company like this, especially with new plants being built in the
Philipines and far east coming on line. At 70 cents/watt a 1000 watt
array costs $700. Add the net metering circuitry and framework (again
at wholesale costs) and there might be $2500 invested in the
installation. At 10 cents per KWH from the homeowner, there might be
$200 coming in each year to offset the interest and depreciation.
That is about a wash. The security deposit generates $25 in income,
but that is no great shakes either. What DOES become interesting is
that this could be a setup for green power credits, and if that is the
case, the energy generated can essentially be sold twice, once to the
homeowner, and once to a major polluter that needs to keep from
getting fined or shut down for pollution. That promises to be big
money in the upcoming years.
A company like this can make a profit, make people feel good about
paying for power, and make major polluters willingly pay to keep
polluting, but on the backs of those who think they are being green.
Once established, it can then be sold at a large profit.
zzbu...@netscape.net
Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Chuck Whealton wrote:
> ...
> > OK, there's a lot of guys in these groups that know a lot about this
> > stuff. I'll be very curious to hear what people think of this one.
> >
> > I mean in the "ideal world", this wouldn't SOUND like a bad idea.
>
> It sounds too good to be true. Usually things that sound too good to
> be true are not true. What's the catch? I don't know. Perhaps we
> should ask where the company expects to make a profit in this deal.
Quite simple. Since they stated they sell the energy back to you,
not give it to you. So they put their own power meter
on your house, just like Wal-Mart does, So it's
not a work of energy genius,
Derek Broughton
>
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> zzbu...@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>> > It's easy enough to check with the PUC and BBB.
>> > Since that's the only way you can get
>> > a permit to install roof panels.
>>
>> PUC & BBB? Public Utilities Commission? They would generally have to
>> approve grid connections but not have anything to do with actual permits
>> for installing panels.
>
> I didn't say that they gave permits, I said they would know.
>
Sure you did. It's right there in black and white.
--
derek
d.s.
This also smacks of a MLM setup, since Tim Padden has a web page as a
subset of the main page, which is what MLM has been known to do. Yes,
I know, it doesn't necessarily mean that.
Free Energy
it seems thay are selling a lot more that electricity. Read the fine
print about MANDITORY COMMUNICATINS SERVICES!
Tim Ward
<zzbu...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1167321723.1...@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
<snippage>
> It's easy enough to check with the PUC and BBB.
> Since that's the only way you can get
> a permit to install roof panels.
>
The PUC and the Better Business Bureau approve building permits where you
live?
Tim Ward
Tim Padden
Thank you for your reply.I am glad to have some thinkers out there.
Citizenre maintains the systems. It is their system to maintain so they
take responsibility for its full operation. It does go on your
homeowners insurance . My insurance will only costs me an additional
.25 a month. My agent said it should not be very expensive for anybody.
As for the quality they do have a reasons to install high quality
material . They both want to maximize the output and the durability. If
they have low output panels they have to pay for more panels on your
roof as well as the upkeep. The looked to make the decision where the
output and durability lines crossed to maximize both sides of the
equation. I think one needs to look at this a different way . Citizenre
will have the largest solar plant in the country next year. The
economies of scale allow them to affordably offer this service. I see
myself both saving money with the fixed lower prices and using green
energy to power my home. I am also betting that energy prices will not
go down dramatically . Doing so would be against the long historical
average. Its a win-win in my book and many things in it for me as a
homeowner.
Thank you
Tim Padden
Tim Padden
Thank you for your reply.I am glad to have some thinkers out there.
Citizenre maintains the systems. It is their system to maintain so they
take responsibility for its full operation. It does go on your
homeowners insurance . My insurance will only costs me an additional
.25 a month. My agent said it should not be very expensive for anybody.
As for the quality they do have a reasons to install high quality
material . They both want to maximize the output and the durability. If
they have low output panels they have to pay for more panels on your
roof as well as the upkeep. The looked to make the decision where the
output and durability lines crossed to maximize both sides of the
equation. I think one needs to look at this a different way . Citizenre
will have the largest solar plant in the country next year. The
economies of scale allow them to affordably offer this service. I see
myself both saving money with the fixed lower prices and using green
energy to power my home. I am also betting that energy prices will not
go down dramatically . Doing so would be against the long historical
average. Its a win-win in my book.
Thank you
Tim Padden
Mike Payne
1. How is Citizenre funded? If the business is designed around the concept
of paying for PV systems then charging for the generated power at current
rates they will not break even on the first system they install for 5-10
years at a minimum. Assuming they keep installing new systems during that
time frame if could take 20-30 years before they turn a business profit.
Where is the cash coming from to sustain this long term effort?
2. Who will read the PV meter on customer's home? How will the customer
know how much of a check to write you? Is it done on the honor system? Or
are you installing a digital meter with modem attached? Requiring broadband
support?
3. Can you explain how a home sale would be handled? Suppose I sign up for
a 25 year contract then sell my house 3 years later. What are my options?
4. My power supplier here in North Florida is Clay Electric. I don't see
them listed in your website drop down. Does that mean I'm not eligible?
5. Who does your North Florida installations?
thanks,
mike
"Tim Padden" <citize...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167361598.2...@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
AgentHandyman
On Dec 28, 2:48 pm, "Free Energy" <fossilfree...@gmail.com> wrote:
> it seems thay are selling a lot more that electricity. Read the fine
> print about MANDITORY COMMUNICATINS SERVICES!
>
Only requires landline telephone so we may retrieve daily system
reports and run diagnostics and/or software updates.
Sean Applewhite
Independent Direct Seller
Citizenre Corp
>
>
> Tim Padden wrote:
> > I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> > panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
> > energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
> > rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
> > maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
> > of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
> > deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
> > of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
> > more information please visitwww.solardays.comor call me at
> > 512-788-5281 ** citizenso...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
> > feedback on this . -Tim- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
AgentHandyman
On Dec 29, 11:07 pm, "Mike Payne" <p...@gru.net> wrote:
> In that case I have a few questions.
>
> 1. How is Citizenre funded? If the business is designed around the concept
> of paying for PV systems then charging for the generated power at current
> rates they will not break even on the first system they install for 5-10
> years at a minimum. Assuming they keep installing new systems during that
> time frame if could take 20-30 years before they turn a business profit.
> Where is the cash coming from to sustain this long term effort?
>
Several major companies are investing. They will be announced in Jan
'07 along with the official public announcement and you *will* know who
they are...
> 2. Who will read the PV meter on customer's home? How will the customer
> know how much of a check to write you? Is it done on the honor system? Or
> are you installing a digital meter with modem attached? Requiring broadband
> support?
>
this is the reason for the landline telephone service requirement..
which most people already have. The metering, for Citizen ReNu billing
purposes, is done using our system control module. You can monitor your
systems production on a daily basis via online account management. No
broadband required for communication between Citizenre's computers and
the rental equipment. we dial into a WAN.
> 3. Can you explain how a home sale would be handled? Suppose I sign up for
> a 25 year contract then sell my house 3 years later. What are my options?
>
1. Move the system to your new home... Customers are allowed to
relocate the equipment 1 (one) time at no cost, as per the FRA.
2. Transfer the FRA to the new owner. If they agree and all is still
okay.
3. Last choice... breach the contract and lose any deposit(s), per the
FRA
> 4. My power supplier here in North Florida is Clay Electric. I don't see
> them listed in your website drop down. Does that mean I'm not eligible?
>
Check on the website... Many Utilities are available and more are being
added. You utility may not "publish" thier support of new metering,
however they may work with us.
> 5. Who does your North Florida installations?
>
Our installer network is being developed as I type... We will have more
details on this at a later date.
> thanks,
>
> mike
>
Hope this helps. Have a great new year!
anthon...@gmail.com
Sounds like a great concept. Have you considered installing panels on
commercial premises as well as homes? There's a lot of flat office,
shop, and warehouse rooves that bake in the sun all day long. A lot of
sunlight going to waste.
I thought of a similar scheme last year. My idea was that when solar
panels become cheap enough, companies will spring up that approach
businesses and offer to lease their roof space so they can install
solar arrays which they use to sell the electricity back to the
national grid. If the solar companies can get significantly more money
for the electricity they produce than for the rent they pay then it may
be a viable business proposition. It will take a few years to break
even though because of the capital costs. However once break-even is
reached the money will just keep coming in for the next 20 years or so
with very little work.
An added bonus of this will be that the heat load on the buildings will
be reduced by the presence of the solar panels which will reduce air
conditioning costs to the businesses underneath.
Anthony.
Tim P
> Sounds like a great concept. Have you considered installing panels on
> commercial premises as well as homes? There's a lot of flat office,
> shop, and warehouse rooves that bake in the sun all day long. A lot of
> sunlight going to waste.
>
> I thought of a similar scheme last year. My idea was that when solar
> panels become cheap enough, companies will spring up that approach
> businesses and offer to lease their roof space so they can install
> solar arrays which they use to sell the electricity back to the
> national grid. If the solar companies can get significantly more money
> for the electricity they produce than for the rent they pay then it may
> be a viable business proposition. It will take a few years to break
> even though because of the capital costs. However once break-even is
> reached the money will just keep coming in for the next 20 years or so
> with very little work.
>
> An added bonus of this will be that the heat load on the buildings will
> be reduced by the presence of the solar panels which will reduce air
> conditioning costs to the businesses underneath.
>
> Anthony.
>
You have hit the nail on the head. This is exactly where things are
going. We have just created the point where solar makes economic
sense.Citizenre has created a financial plan for solar that you benefit
from on your home and they will soon be selling commercial units for
businesses that make financial sense for the business owners also. This
is being created by "economies of scale" -The more you make, the
cheaper it is. After answering many calls for Citizen I see that
nationally many people have been waiting to go solar yet the initial
investment that was necessary in the past did not make any sense. The
Citizenre system is the first time that the math has worked out for
everybody involved and the public response to the opportunity has been
phenomenal.I originally singed up to install solar on my house for the
long term savings. I started reading more about the company vision on
the net and their website. I was so impressed, I asked about becoming a
company representative so I could participate in educating the public
on the possibilities now available to them.I have spoken with many many
people all over the U.S and I think that everybody involved is helping
to create a much needed solution to our energy problems. I know there
are skeptics out there and there will always be with new thinking and
new ways of doing things in the world. This is a large part of why I
started this discussion thread. I wanted to answer questions about our
systems and help them with their "too good to be true" issues.If you
have any questions I would be happy to answer them. you can email me
from my web page www.solardays.com or call me at (512) 788-5281
Thanks for reading
-Tim Padden
For more information send an email to in...@solardays.com for an
autoreply
do...@82.usenet.us.com
> I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
> energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
> rates.
For commercial installations, SPGSolar offered financing with payments
equal to the previous year's electricity bills. Here, citizenre is taking
that same amount from you as rent, and giving no equity in the materials in
return. They are entering into a lease for the hardware, with payments
conveniently set at the current electric rate.
One might compare the cost of a conventional lease for some other solar
installation to the pricing offered here.
But if this were a viable financial option, it would still appear on the
Akeena web pages, where I can no longer find it, and SPGSolar would offer
it to residential customers, and not just commercial.
Citzenre will build their own solar panels with inverters on each panel,
so they would be supplying product directly to the homeowner.
On the other hand, presuming that this is all truthful, there are a lot of
futures statements on the web page.
"is arranging", "will catapult", "made arrangements to manufacture", "plans
to include", "The Company is currently planning "
additional reading:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/12/4/113945/108
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
Mike
<anthon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167782942.4...@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>wrote:
>> I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
>> panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
>> energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
>> rates. There is no installation cost , no system purchases ,no
>> maintenance, no performance worries and no rate increases for the life
>> of your contract. Full term contracts before the 1st have the $500.oo
>> deposit waived and will have 2005 electric rates locked in for the term
>> of your contract . If you or your friends have questions or would like
>> more information please visit www.solardays.com or call me at
>> 512-788-5281 ** citize...@gmail.com. I am open to both interest and
>> feedback on this . -Tim
What's going to happen when roofers need to resurface the roof or fix the
roof?
How do they deal w/ the solar panels?
Solar Flare
"Mike" <12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:U%2rh.21648$Gj5.13146@trnddc01...
Mike Payne
costs of a PV installation ever includes that cost or any estimated expense
for future maintentance and repair.
"Solar Flare" <solae...@hootmail.invalidated> wrote in message
news:zuSdnSo-KYrZ7DDY...@golden.net...
Anthony Matonak
You are discussing the maintenance and repair of the roof under
a PV array. Solar panels don't have to be mounted on roofs and
when they are, the roof under them is more protected from the
weather and tends to last longer.
Anthony
Mike Payne wrote:
> Yep. I always find it humorous how no article explaining the break even
> costs of a PV installation ever includes that cost or any estimated expense
> for future maintentance and repair.
>
> "Solar Flare" <solae...@hootmail.invalidated> wrote in message
>
>>They take them down and reinstall after. PV costs money all around.
>>
>>"Mike" <12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
bill
Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Generally speaking, PV panels don't need maintenance or repair.
>
> You are discussing the maintenance and repair of the roof under
> a PV array. Solar panels don't have to be mounted on roofs and
> when they are, the roof under them is more protected from the
> weather and tends to last longer.
If they're tracking arrays, the trackers will need maintainance
regularly. And ANYTHING done to a roof increases it's maintainance
needs. look how hard it is to make a skylight that doesn't leak!
wmbjk
wrote:
>
>Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> Generally speaking, PV panels don't need maintenance or repair.
>>
>> You are discussing the maintenance and repair of the roof under
>> a PV array. Solar panels don't have to be mounted on roofs and
>> when they are, the roof under them is more protected from the
>> weather and tends to last longer.
>
> If they're tracking arrays, the trackers will need maintainance
>regularly.
Just because they're not on the roof doesn't mean they're on trackers.
One can see a wide selection of fixed ground and pole mounts on any
solar retailer's web site. And even when on trackers, the only
maintenance those require is to pump a little grease into some zerks
once a year at most. The cost of that is about $15 for a grease gun
and a tube of grease (which would last a lifetime)
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_55453_55453,
and perhaps five minutes time per year depending on how long it takes
you to remember where the tool is stored.
> And ANYTHING done to a roof increases it's maintainance
>needs. look how hard it is to make a skylight that doesn't leak!
Most every roof has bunch of penetrations for vents etc. The
attachments for an array aren't much different. If required, a few
extra hours to remove and replace the array is trivial compared to the
cost of re-roofing.
Wayne
bill
> >> Generally speaking, PV panels don't need maintenance or repair.
> >>
> >> You are discussing the maintenance and repair of the roof under
> >> a PV array. Solar panels don't have to be mounted on roofs and
> >> when they are, the roof under them is more protected from the
> >> weather and tends to last longer.
> > If they're tracking arrays, the trackers will need maintainance
> >regularly.
> Just because they're not on the roof doesn't mean they're on trackers.
> One can see a wide selection of fixed ground and pole mounts on any
> solar retailer's web site. And even when on trackers, the only
> maintenance those require is to pump a little grease into some zerks
> once a year at most. The cost of that is about $15 for a grease gun
> and a tube of grease (which would last a lifetime)
> http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_55453_55453,
> and perhaps five minutes time per year depending on how long it takes
> you to remember where the tool is stored.
not the whole story. moving parts break and logic circuits fail,
both of those things require maintainance. I didn't say it'd be a lot,
but it is clearly not zero. I didn't say they had to be tracking,
either for ground installations, or for rooftop, I said "if" they are.
and if you're spending $2/watt to install the panel, it only makes
sense to spend the extra $.50/watt to install them on tracker and
double the output!
> > And ANYTHING done to a roof increases it's maintainance
> >needs. look how hard it is to make a skylight that doesn't leak!
> Most every roof has bunch of penetrations for vents etc. The
> attachments for an array aren't much different. If required, a few
> extra hours to remove and replace the array is trivial compared to the
> cost of re-roofing.
Obviously you've never done roofing work. yes, all roofs have
holes, however, those holes are invariably where leaks happen first.
and granted that removing and reinstalling the solar array is not a
huge task, however, there's breakage involved there too, so a certain
percentage of the panels will need replacement every time.
In addition, PV panels require regular cleaning or the efficiency
drops to shit, no more work than washing the windows, but it's still
maintainance. if the solar panel reduces the average life of a roof
by 1 year out of the 20 year average life of a roof, then the cost of
having it is 1 thousand dollars per year for a typical roof, that's
also nontrivial.
Also, in areas prone to high winds (translation most everywhere),
there's flying debris and wind forces on the assembly to consider these
will break a certain percentage of both the tracking arrays and the
flat panels every year.
I am not saying they require a great deal of maintainance, I am
just addressing your bogus claim that "Generally speaking, PV panels
don't need maintenance or repair." that statement can not be made of
anything on this planet that isn't hermetically sealed.
wmbjk
wrote:
> I am not saying they require a great deal of maintainance, I am
>just addressing your bogus claim that "Generally speaking, PV panels
>don't need maintenance or repair." that statement can not be made of
>anything on this planet that isn't hermetically sealed.
Most PV *doesn't* get cleaned (other than by rain and sun), and other
than cleaning no maintenance is required. So his statement was
correct, while most everything you've written is merely unreasonable
spin.
Wayne
bill
no, failing to address th realities of the maintainance
requirements does not make them go away. O&M, I will grant you is
pretty low with a solar installation, but not zero. calling it 3% of
installed cost per year for maintainance and breakage, and expecting to
need to fully replace the panels every 25 years on top of that would
correctly address reality. saying "they don't require maintainance is
purest of all possible stupidity. 3% of installed cost is very
significant when dealing with a marginal economic endeavor. the
difference between 2 and 3% could make or break it.
So, as far as it goes, if you install 1 on your roof, you may
indeed, never need to do a damned thing to maintain it, install 10000
on 10000 roofs, and I guarantee you, you will be a BUSY boy replacing
panels and invreters.
Mike Payne
to need something repaired or replaced on it if it sits there long enough.
Suupose for instance it gets hit by hail, lightning, or just airplane parts
falling out of the sky. The invertor could burn itself up 1 day after the
10 year warranty expires. In any case my point was that no article I have
ever read where they try to justify a PV system based on payback time
included a single dollar in the calculations for ongoing maintenance and
repair. Nor do they include cash for increased homeowners insurance to
cover the PV replacement cost should the home burn down. etc. Most may never
require it, but some will. If it's yours, you have to pay it.
mike
"bill" <ford_pr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169062556.9...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
bill
Mike Payne wrote:
> And that was my point. Any PV system no matter how well installed is going
> to need something repaired or replaced on it if it sits there long enough.
> Suupose for instance it gets hit by hail, lightning, or just airplane parts
> falling out of the sky. The invertor could burn itself up 1 day after the
> 10 year warranty expires. In any case my point was that no article I have
> ever read where they try to justify a PV system based on payback time
> included a single dollar in the calculations for ongoing maintenance and
> repair. Nor do they include cash for increased homeowners insurance to
> cover the PV replacement cost should the home burn down. etc. Most may never
> require it, but some will. If it's yours, you have to pay it.
Or a kid with a bb gun, or a poorly hit baseball, a lazy roofer,
wind debris, lightning (both for the panel and the inverter) power
spikes, burnout due to excessive load, installation SNAFUS, coming
detatched from the roof (or ground) due to repeated application of
*just a bit* too much wind, manufacturing defects, grit in the tracker
array jamming it causing the motors to melt, dust and bird shit
rendering it inoperable due to the lack of cleaning, contact
degredation, water entering into the PV module and corroding the
contacts or shorting out the cell, differential expansion delaminating
the PV cells due to thermal cycles, etc. etc. etc.
The earth is a hostile environment, even mountains need to be
replaced once in a while :)
wmbjk
wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
>> On 17 Jan 2007 09:46:10 -0800, "bill" <ford_pr...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I am not saying they require a great deal of maintainance, I am
>> >just addressing your bogus claim that "Generally speaking, PV panels
>> >don't need maintenance or repair." that statement can not be made of
>> >anything on this planet that isn't hermetically sealed.
>>
>> Most PV *doesn't* get cleaned (other than by rain and sun), and other
>> than cleaning no maintenance is required. So his statement was
>> correct, while most everything you've written is merely unreasonable
>> spin.
>
> no, failing to address th realities of the maintainance
>requirements does not make them go away. O&M, I will grant you is
>pretty low with a solar installation, but not zero. calling it 3% of
>installed cost per year for maintainance and breakage, and expecting to
>need to fully replace the panels every 25 years on top of that would
>correctly address reality.
No, that only addresses your silly rationalization. I've had PV on
trackers for 11 years. According to your out-of-thin-air projection,
by now I should have spent about $5000 on maintenance. Instead, I've
spent about $150 on the trackers, and zero on the PV. Of course, 3%
was your average, so even if my costs and a couple of my neighbor's
are zero, we might still know someone who'd spent $20,000. <snorf>
Also, I very much doubt I'll be needing full replacement in 25 years,
since the manufacturer warrants the PV for that long. Now, before you
claim that at the very least the trackers will be toast by then,
consider that 2 of my trackers use the same basic motor-drive as my
Cband dish mover, which is already about 20 years old and working
perfectly.
> saying "they don't require maintainance is
>purest of all possible stupidity. 3% of installed cost is very
>significant when dealing with a marginal economic endeavor.
It would be... if it had any basis in reality.
> the
>difference between 2 and 3% could make or break it.
> So, as far as it goes, if you install 1 on your roof, you may
>indeed, never need to do a damned thing to maintain it, install 10000
>on 10000 roofs, and I guarantee you, you will be a BUSY boy replacing
>panels and invreters.
Ah, so now you've added inverters even though the quote you took issue
with was about PV. But that won't fly either. You could try adding in
batteries, except that an increasing majority of systems don't have
any.
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
It's obvious that you're both making it up as you go along. For
instance, if an asteroid destroys your array, then your homeowner's
insurance should cover it, just as it did for a neighbor whose system
took a lightning hit. Grit in a tracker motor causing a motor burn
out? Hilarious, but not very original. These Chicken Little routines
have all been done much better by others here a long time ago.
Wayne
Mike Payne
cover it. But it would not cover my $1000 deductible. So even in your
scenario there is a significant possible expense that can be incurred. I'm
not saying it is likely. But it isn't fair to say that no one will ever
have a maintenance or repair expense after they buy their array either.
If someone decided to buy an array solely because they thought they would
eventually breakeven on it then it is wrong to not include some line item in
the calculations for maintenance and repair. It may turn out to be $0 or
it may turn out to be $3000 for a new inverter.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:ubgtq2d7fqh3h761g...@4ax.com...
Steve Spence
In the last 3 years, I've replaced a inverter (planned upgrade - $1100),
and a battery bank (10 years old, planned upgrade - $1800). I've
replaced 3 starters ($100 each) on the gennie, and a water pump ($150).
That's it for maintenance.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
do...@82.usenet.us.com
> need to fully replace the panels every 25 years on top of that would
Why would you want to replace all of the panels at the 25 year point?
They are warrantied to maintain 80% (some brands 90%) of rated capacity at
25 years. Some are 40 years old and still above 80%.
bill
>
> Why would you want to replace all of the panels at the 25 year point?
> They are warrantied to maintain 80% (some brands 90%) of rated capacity at
> 25 years. Some are 40 years old and still above 80%.
I was speaking here of averages, perhaps the average replacement
time is 25, perhaps it's 40, perhaps it's 50, but there will be one,
nothing lasts forever. I'm not claiming that I know the number, I am
claiming that there is one and it is not even remotely possible that it
is infinite. the delightful anecdotes we have here from people who
have installed them are nice and all, and it's good that homeowners
insurance will cover some of the more catastrophic losses, but
insurance companies work at a profit, so the factor for the increased
homeowners rates must be taken into account (prolly pretty low granted)
as well as the deductible. tell me something, have you ever had a
window break on your house? why? they are impervious to the weather.
claiming that they require no maintainance is no matter how you cut it,
stupid. you just haven't encountered the costs yet, perhaps you won't,
that doesn't mean they don't exist. and for any real business, they
must be factored in. Homeowners have the luxury of ignoring them if
they so choose. never underestimate the power of denial.
Solar Flare
hours to strip and replace a roof if they put their minds to it.
Do you think those shingle jockeys will be able to de-rack the PV
panels and remove all the struts and channels in the same time?
It costs moeny to maintain PV panels and the costs are directly
attributable to the PV panels for roof maintenance.
I doubt Wayne has even seen more than two panels.
"Mike Payne" <pa...@gru.net> wrote in message
news:grArh.58086$kn7....@newsfe23.lga...
Solar Flare
does not expose them to the elements and your wife dusts them when you
are not looking. You may increase your 5 watt panels to 7 if in direct
sun also.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:65gtq2lgvt5eb9vto...@4ax.com...
>>wmbjk wrote:
> No, that only addresses your silly rationalization. I've had PV on
> trackers for 11 years. According to your out-of-thin-air projection,
> by now I should have spent about $5000 on maintenance. Instead, I've
> spent about $150 on the trackers, and zero on the PV.> Wayne
Solar Flare
Wayne is trying to distract you for the real argument because he threw
out nonsense and has to defend it now.
HUHAS.
"bill" <ford_pr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169094738.1...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dan Bloomquist
Solar Flare wrote:
> The argument was....
Stupid. Back and forth stupid as it has been for years on these groups.
The MTBF and degradation are well understood as it is in any energy
system. All that has to be done is to plug the numbers in no matter what
every armchair engineer has to say. Simple is just that. If PV could
compete with coal it would. What makes you think you know so much more
than the capital that would invest? I don't see a lick of references to
studies where real people have done their homework. (There are
exceptions, but far and few between.) No numbers, just...
> that they cost money when doing roof maintenance.
> Wayne is trying to distract you for the real argument because he threw
> out nonsense and has to defend it now.
Both you and Wayne are biased. You both could not care less what the
numbers say.
It has been the same old load of crap for years and will be until the
lights go out..........
Say good night, Gracy.......
Derek Broughton
> wmbjk wrote:
>> On 17 Jan 2007 09:46:10 -0800, "bill" <ford_pr...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Most PV *doesn't* get cleaned (other than by rain and sun), and other
>> than cleaning no maintenance is required. So his statement was
>> correct, while most everything you've written is merely unreasonable
>> spin.
>
> no, failing to address th realities of the maintainance
> requirements does not make them go away. O&M, I will grant you is
> pretty low with a solar installation, but not zero. calling it 3% of
> installed cost per year for maintainance and breakage, and expecting to
> need to fully replace the panels every 25 years on top of that would
> correctly address reality. saying "they don't require maintainance is
> purest of all possible stupidity. 3% of installed cost is very
> significant when dealing with a marginal economic endeavor. the
> difference between 2 and 3% could make or break it.
While I don't disagree with your basic premise, I think you're double
billing - it's not 3% p.a. _and_ replace every 25 years. It would work out
to about 3% p.a. _including_ final replacement.
--
derek
bill
Okay. Then it prolly needs to be kicked up to 4 or 5% that's
still pretty low but might reflect reality. I looked for the mtbf and
maintainance data, and had a little trouble finding it. I have a life,
and PV isn't it, so I wasn't inspired to look much more.
wmbjk
<publ...@lakeweb.com> wrote:
>Stupid. Back and forth stupid as it has been for years on these groups.
>The MTBF and degradation are well understood as it is in any energy
>system. All that has to be done is to plug the numbers in no matter what
>every armchair engineer has to say. Simple is just that. If PV could
>compete with coal it would.
I didn't see anyone claiming that PV competes with coal.
> What makes you think you know so much more
>than the capital that would invest? I don't see a lick of references to
>studies where real people have done their homework. (There are
>exceptions, but far and few between.) No numbers, just...
... a straw man from you, which is no more helpful than Gymmy Bob the
solar faker's nonsense. Do you have any personal experience with PV
maintenance, or are you just another guy speculating?
>Both you and Wayne are biased. You both could not care less what the
>numbers say.
I've had an off-grid setup for some time, and I live in an area with
*thousands* of off-gridders. I already know my own maintenance costs,
and have a good idea of most of my friends and neighbor's costs. The
claim of 3% per year for maintenance is stupid. Same with the one that
removal and replacement of PV for re-roofing is a big deal. And if you
think that the cost of roofers or whoever unbolting and re bolting
modules can be estimated by looking at MTBFs, then check your mailbox
for an exciting Nigerian opportunity.
Wayne
wmbjk
<solae...@hootmail.invalidated> wrote:
>Do you think those shingle jockeys will be able to de-rack the PV
>panels and remove all the struts and channels in the same time?
Yes nitwit, just like they do with other stuff that's in their way.
Google "MC connector". Even you could handle it, although I'd have the
paperboy inspect your work afterward to make sure.
>I doubt Wayne has even seen more than two panels.
No you don't. You just say goofy stuff like that because you're
incapable of being anything other than a nym-shifting poseur.
wmbjk
wrote:
>it isn't fair to say that no one will ever
>have a maintenance or repair expense after they buy their array either.
If someone has said that, I didn't see it. Please show me the quote.
Wayne
bill
> >have a maintenance or repair expense after they buy their array either.
>
> If someone has said that, I didn't see it. Please show me the quote.
Mike Payne
familiar with the ones we have here. I wouldn't let them touch my PV array.
There is a 100% chance they would either electrocute themselves, break the
PV, or both. It would have to be taken down and reinstalled by someone
that actually had a high school diploma.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:op4vq29krt3iaua1g...@4ax.com...
bill
> solar faker's nonsense. Do you have any personal experience with PV
> maintenance, or are you just another guy speculating?
>
> >Both you and Wayne are biased. You both could not care less what the
> >numbers say.
>
> I've had an off-grid setup for some time, and I live in an area with
> *thousands* of off-gridders. I already know my own maintenance costs,
> and have a good idea of most of my friends and neighbor's costs. The
> claim of 3% per year for maintenance is stupid. Same with the one that
> removal and replacement of PV for re-roofing is a big deal. And if you
> think that the cost of roofers or whoever unbolting and re bolting
> modules can be estimated by looking at MTBFs, then check your mailbox
> for an exciting Nigerian opportunity.
What are the insurance premiums. some guy here said that he knew
someone who had his array get fried by lightning, if the deductible is
$1000 and the premium is 1% of the cost of the array annually, then
that deductible just ate up 30 years of the 3% o&m budget I mentioned.
3% would be the equivalent of having a repairman out once every
alternate year, or spending 2-3 hours per year yutzing with it. I
guarantee you spend more than that.
Anthony Matonak
Ok, I'll amend that to say that PV panels may need a tiny bit
of maintenance and repair. I.e. check to see if they're still
there after hurricanes, inspect once a year for animals nesting
or chewing on parts, look to see that they produce power. Perhaps
they should also be replaced every 100 years if they need it or
not, just on principle.
Maintenance and repair on PV panels is, in fact, unusual enough
that I wouldn't consider it significant enough when speaking
generally.
Anthony
Mike Payne
uncommon. But I'll bet the same is not true of invertors. I doubt you will
find many of those from 20 years ago that are still running. And since that
is a critical component of the system...
"Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:45afb2fa$0$5220$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
R.H. Allen
O&M costs have been benchmarked by DOE at about 0.5% of installed system
cost per annum. Cost analyses are typically run for the life of a single
system, and that life is typically set equal to the expected life of the
PV panels. Replacement of the panels would thus constitute a new system,
and a separate cost analysis would be done for the new system.
The end of the expected life of the modules is a good cutoff point for
the analysis for several reasons. One is that the replacement cost of
the panels in 25 years is a huge unknown. Another is that compounding of
the discount rate over time means reduces the influence that cash flows
in the distant future have over the net present value of those cash
flows. For example, the net present value of a $10,000 cash flow 25
years from now is just $3,100 at a real (i.e., inflation-adjusted)
discount rate of 5%. Of course, that's a discount rate more typical of
government projects than commercial ones. If you use something closer to
what a utility would use -- say 12% -- the NPV is just $659.
So you can include the cost of replacing the panels in 25 years if you
like, but it isn't likely to change your analysis much. That's the time
value of money....
R.H. Allen
>> ... a straw man from you, which is no more helpful than Gymmy Bob the
>> solar faker's nonsense. Do you have any personal experience with PV
>> maintenance, or are you just another guy speculating?
>>
>>> Both you and Wayne are biased. You both could not care less what the
>>> numbers say.
>> I've had an off-grid setup for some time, and I live in an area with
>> *thousands* of off-gridders. I already know my own maintenance costs,
>> and have a good idea of most of my friends and neighbor's costs. The
>> claim of 3% per year for maintenance is stupid. Same with the one that
>> removal and replacement of PV for re-roofing is a big deal. And if you
>> think that the cost of roofers or whoever unbolting and re bolting
>> modules can be estimated by looking at MTBFs, then check your mailbox
>> for an exciting Nigerian opportunity.
>
> What are the insurance premiums. some guy here said that he knew
> someone who had his array get fried by lightning, if the deductible is
> $1000 and the premium is 1% of the cost of the array annually, then
It is my understanding that if you have a properly installed and
inspected (i.e., up-to-code) PV system, most insurance companies will
treat it as part of the house and not single it out for special
treatment. If that is truly the case, I have a very difficult time
believing they would charge anywhere near 1% of the marginal increase in
coverage.
> that deductible just ate up 30 years of the 3% o&m budget I mentioned.
It isn't really an O&M cost, though. In general, O&M costs are
considered to be those expenditures necessary to maintain day-to-day
operations. They do not include the replacement costs for major system
components. As far as I am aware, this is a pretty typical definition of
O&M -- Amazon.com, for example, would not classify the rebuilding of a
burnt-down warehouse as O&M. They would, however, classify the cost of
testing and repairing the fire control systems at the warehouse as O&M.
In a PV system, calling someone to repair an inverter would be O&M;
replacing a PV panel fried by lightning would not.
Replacement costs are a separate matter altogether; whereas O&M costs
are essentially continuous expenditures, replacement costs happen at
more or less random intervals. The O&M costs for two different PV
systems are likely to be similar over their service lives, whereas
replacement costs may differ wildly. Thus, it is much easier to predict
the impact of O&M costs on a PV system than it is to predict the impact
of replacement costs. The latter is an area of active study in the PV
industry.
wmbjk
wrote:
>I will agree with you that maintenance and repair of solar panels is
>uncommon. But I'll bet the same is not true of invertors. I doubt you will
>find many of those from 20 years ago that are still running. And since that
>is a critical component of the system...
Your problem is that the modules, mounts, wiring, conduit,
disconnects, installation,taxes, etc. generally don't add any
maintenance cost. The "delicate" parts of the system comprise perhaps
30% of the total system cost. So unless you have some evidence that
everybody replaces that entire 30% every ten years, your 3%
maintenance number is way off the mark. Try going out to actually look
at setups and talk to owners, instead of just listing every possible
problem you can imagine. Then you might come up with a more reasonable
number.
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
Just as I thought. Adding in the "no one" and "never" and "inverters"
etc. is a simple case of you putting words in his mouth.
Wayne
Solar Flare
Wayne is a hermit that isn't allowed to mix with people, except his
rehab officer once a month. His buttons are really big too.
"Mike Payne" <pa...@gru.net> wrote in message
news:sfNrh.58942$kn7....@newsfe23.lga...
Solar Flare
the additional maintenance costs incurred directly and indirectly due
the PV panels.
You speak from ignorance with no foresight.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:dk20r2h2obp790cuj...@4ax.com...
bill
>
> It isn't really an O&M cost, though. In general, O&M costs are
> considered to be those expenditures necessary to maintain day-to-day
> operations. They do not include the replacement costs for major system
> components. As far as I am aware, this is a pretty typical definition of
> O&M -- Amazon.com, for example, would not classify the rebuilding of a
> burnt-down warehouse as O&M. They would, however, classify the cost of
> testing and repairing the fire control systems at the warehouse as O&M.
> In a PV system, calling someone to repair an inverter would be O&M;
> replacing a PV panel fried by lightning would not.
>
> Replacement costs are a separate matter altogether; whereas O&M costs
> are essentially continuous expenditures, replacement costs happen at
> more or less random intervals. The O&M costs for two different PV
> systems are likely to be similar over their service lives, whereas
> replacement costs may differ wildly. Thus, it is much easier to predict
> the impact of O&M costs on a PV system than it is to predict the impact
> of replacement costs. The latter is an area of active study in the PV
> industry.
AH. here we have where 2 rational people discussing the exact
same thing can fail wretchedly to understand one another. For YOU, the
homeowner with 1 pv array, 1 inverter, and 1 tracker, etc those
baseballs, BBguns, meteors and etc are "replacement costs", like
amazon's warehouse burning down. they'll happen pretty much at random
and not at all often. for a utility like citizenre, who does or will
soon have 10,000 or 100,000 installations deployed, if their business
model pans out, they can anticipate losing a fraction of those
installations to those aforementioned random events annually, stock
spares, and replace them inhouse rather than filing an insurance claim
and paying the associated premiums. Thus they shift from the
"catastrophic insurance claim" category, to the "daily operations"
category. Now should their PV plant explode, that would be a
catastrophic insurance claim. Should hurricane katrina eliminate all
the installations in a state, that would probably also be an insurance
claim, however, a lightning strike would be just part of doing
business. Remember, your housefire is business as usual for the
insurance agent.
Donald Kinney
> same thing can fail wretchedly to understand one another. For YOU, the
> homeowner with 1 pv array, 1 inverter, and 1 tracker, etc those
> baseballs, BBguns, meteors and etc are "replacement costs", like
> amazon's warehouse burning down. they'll happen pretty much at random
> and not at all often. for a utility like citizenre, who does or will
> soon have 10,000 or 100,000 installations deployed, if their business
> model pans out, they can anticipate losing a fraction of those
> installations to those aforementioned random events annually, stock
> spares, and replace them inhouse rather than filing an insurance claim
> and paying the associated premiums. Thus they shift from the
> "catastrophic insurance claim" category, to the "daily operations"
> category. Now should their PV plant explode, that would be a
> catastrophic insurance claim. Should hurricane katrina eliminate all
> the installations in a state, that would probably also be an insurance
> claim, however, a lightning strike would be just part of doing
> business. Remember, your housefire is business as usual for the
> insurance agent.
Read their info.
You have to have insurance to cover their items. I am guessing that they
will be the only ones able to replace any broken parts due to outside forces
(weather, trees, baseballs, etc) and will charge an amount that your
insurance company will have to pay after your deductible:-)
Donald
R.H. Allen
I don't know what Citizenre's business model is and how they plan to
handle the accounting, but that seems plausible. But if they have 10,000
systems installed a 3% O&M charge is the equivalent of replacing 300
systems every year, or replacing every system once in a 33-year span.
There would have to be an awful lot of vandalism going on to cause that
much damage on an ongoing basis, especially given that each system
ostensibly has a lifetime of 25-30 years. I don't have hard data on
this, but I feel quite confident in saying that field experience with PV
arrays -- even in urban areas -- doesn't bear out such a scenario.
One urban array I'm familiar with consists of about 3000 panels. About a
half-dozen of them were broken by vandals early on before somebody
finally got the bright idea to restrict access to the place. Since then,
the only panel that's been lost was one that fell victim to a stray
bullet. So that's about 0.25% of the panels that have been lost to
vandalism in 10 years. (None have been lost to defects, though if any
were they'd have been replaced under warranty.) Given the fraction of
the system cost represented by the panels, that works out to about 0.15%
of the installed system cost in replacements, or an equivalent O&M cost
of 0.015% per year. Of course, there have been other O&M charges, mainly
related to the inverter. (Inverters are far and away the least reliable
component of a PV system, and they generate both the greatest O&M and
replacement costs. Both should decline in the future, as that is the
primary focus of inverter developers right now.)
Granted that's an anecdotal example, but it's not atypical.
Unfortunately the failure data that exists is not widely available, so I
can't really support the point much better than that. But if Citizenre's
O&M costs are anywhere even close to 3% of installed system cost per
annum then I'd wager they won't be in business long.
Tim P
Citizenre warranties their work . If you have a leak caused by the
system they will come repair it at no cost.They handle the upkeep to
make certain the panels run at peak efficiency. If your energy needs go
down they will remove a panel , If they go up they will add one. I
sincerely think that this is the wave of the future. The cell phone
industry boomed when they began giving away phones. The same will
happen here.
If you would like me to answer more questions for you please feel free
to call me at (eighthundred) -730-9407
Tim Padden
Executive Sales Director
www.solardays.com
bill wrote:
> Anthony Matonak wrote:
> > Generally speaking, PV panels don't need maintenance or repair.
> >
> > You are discussing the maintenance and repair of the roof under
> > a PV array. Solar panels don't have to be mounted on roofs and
> > when they are, the roof under them is more protected from the
> > weather and tends to last longer.
>
> If they're tracking arrays, the trackers will need maintainance
> regularly. And ANYTHING done to a roof increases it's maintainance
> needs. look how hard it is to make a skylight that doesn't leak!
Anthony Matonak
> Citizenre warranties their work . If you have a leak caused by the
> system they will come repair it at no cost.
> If you would like me to answer more questions for you please feel free
> to call me at (eighthundred) -730-9407
Well, I've got a few questions...
Where are they planning on getting the capital to finance this?
Where is their "worlds largest" PV production facility?
Have they started the process to hire any installers, or anyone
other than sales associates?
There seems to be so little "buzz" about this company, How can
we know it actually exists?
Anthony
do...@82.usenet.us.com
> You have to have insurance to cover their items. I am guessing that they
> will be the only ones able to replace any broken parts due to outside
Since they will manufacture the solar panels, and each solar panel has its
own AC inverter, they would be unique in the marketplace. You wouldn't be
able to replace them with a commodity panel.
Maybe insurance replacement is a profit center in their business model.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
Steve Spence
What work has CR done that needs warrantying?
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
Steve Spence
> Solar panels have not available to the public long enough to know what
> the additional maintenance costs incurred directly and indirectly due
> the PV panels.
>
> You speak from ignorance with no foresight.
>
My Carrizo panels are over 20 years old, and have not required a penny
of maintenance. What are you talking about?
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
wmbjk
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>Solar Flare wrote:
>> Solar panels have not available to the public long enough to know what
>> the additional maintenance costs incurred directly and indirectly due
>> the PV panels.
>>
>> You speak from ignorance with no foresight.
>>
>
>My Carrizo panels are over 20 years old, and have not required a penny
>of maintenance. What are you talking about?
He's trying to convince everybody that experience is easily trumped by
uninformed speculation, because he none of the first and an unlimited
supply of the second. Otherwise known as a boob.
Wayne
Steve Spence
And that is a pretty accurate statement. My original panels are 20 years
old, and have never required any repair or maintenance. Of course, some
folks are unlucky ....
Steve Spence
> I will agree with you that maintenance and repair of solar panels is
> uncommon. But I'll bet the same is not true of invertors. I doubt you will
> find many of those from 20 years ago that are still running. And since that
> is a critical component of the system...
>
A inverter is a component of an energy system, as are pv panels, but
it's not fair to lump inverter life in an argument about pv efficiency
and life, as pv panels typically charge batteries, regardless of whether
a inverter is on the system or not. If my inverter fails, I still have
my 12 vdc system, which can run the majority of my house, or at least
equivalents. I would not want the same inverter for 20 years, as there
are major improvements in inverter options and abilities, where pv just
sits there and charges batteries decade after decade.
Steve Spence
> I'm not sure what caliber of roofers you have where you live, but I am
> familiar with the ones we have here. I wouldn't let them touch my PV array.
> There is a 100% chance they would either electrocute themselves, break the
> PV, or both. It would have to be taken down and reinstalled by someone
> that actually had a high school diploma.
I have a high school diploma. I set up my pv, why would I allow someone
else to take them down. Then again, why would I pay someone else to
reroof the roof I installed?
Tim P
"But if this were a viable financial option, it would still appear on
the
Akeena web pages, where I can no longer find it, and SPGSolar would
offer
it to residential customers, and not just commercial. "
Hold much ground. There are many ways to finance projects and the
markets are ever changing.The fact that SPGSolar and Akeena did not
create access to these markets does not mean it is not a viable
business model.I have not seen one post where somebody thought of
something that is not included in standard business model. I see
people posting things like "Did they think about breakage?" or
"Earthquakes?" or "Clouds?". Yes they did. Of Course they did. I have
had the chance to speak with David Gregg , Rob Styler and Sam Custodio.
((Founder ,President, VP Sales) and they are not about to get caught
with their pants down. There is no hidden variable that is going to
bring down the company. There is no math that has not been done. It is
a huge investment involving many people and everybody I have spoken to
knows what they are doing , communicates effectively and is committed
to the details as well as the long term vision. If you are a doubter,
be a doubter but keep your eye on the news. The best is yet to come.
Lets keep this conversation going . I have learned much from the
postings here and I hope that I have been some service to the
home/solar community as well.
Tim Padden
Regional Sales Director
(eight hundred) 730-9407
do...@82.usenet.us.com wrote:
> In alt.solar.photovoltaic Tim Padden <citize...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I work with a company called Citizenre that will come install solar
> > panels on your house at no cost, The company then sells the solar
> > energy back to you at less than you local utility and never raise your
> > rates.
>
> For commercial installations, SPGSolar offered financing with payments
> equal to the previous year's electricity bills. Here, citizenre is taking
> that same amount from you as rent, and giving no equity in the materials in
> return. They are entering into a lease for the hardware, with payments
> conveniently set at the current electric rate.
>
> One might compare the cost of a conventional lease for some other solar
> installation to the pricing offered here.
>
> But if this were a viable financial option, it would still appear on the
> Akeena web pages, where I can no longer find it, and SPGSolar would offer
> it to residential customers, and not just commercial.
>
> Citzenre will build their own solar panels with inverters on each panel,
> so they would be supplying product directly to the homeowner.
>
> On the other hand, presuming that this is all truthful, there are a lot of
> futures statements on the web page.
>
> "is arranging", "will catapult", "made arrangements to manufacture", "plans
> to include", "The Company is currently planning "
>
> additional reading:
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/12/4/113945/108
geo...@altersystems.com
Renting Solar Power Systems has worked for multi-unit buildings such as
found in Europe due to the fact that that is the only way you can place
a solar system to such a building and not have 30 or more owners fight
over roof or side-of-the building space.
I do not believe it will work here in the US. The reason is that by
renting such a system you may not have to pay upfront cost and you
still lock the electricity rate,... but one gives up many other
benefits in state and federal tax incentives. In addition, by renting a
solar system one gives up REC's (renewable energy certificates) that
could be soon sold in an open market (UK already does it along with
some other EU countries). In the states, Arizona, California, Colorado
and many states to come will start honoring REC's and the markets for
REC's will be created.
You can actually see all the State rebates and Tax incentives for solar
at the following URL:
http://www.dsireusa.org/index.cfm
Would you like to give all those benefits, thinking that they will give
you the solar power system for nothing?
Besides, Americans like to own rather than rent...so that we can
increase the value of our homes, take a loan to finance the system and
in return get some tax deductions (oh...more benefits), and if we are a
little hands-on, we even go the extra mile and install the system
ourselves...gather the kids around...teach them a thing or two...and
show what we as parents do for their future and their kids future!
Solar Flare
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:45b398e7$1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Solar Flare
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:45b2b...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Dan Bloomquist
Tim P wrote:
> I am not certain that the argument
> "But if this were a viable financial option....
It would have been big news a long time ago. At an easy $10/peak watt
installed, this is going nowhere.
do...@82.usenet.us.com
That's a little high for a system with no rebates, but close enough that it
is an acceptable figure.
But in the areas where citizenre intends to install, there are rebates, and
in most of those areas, some SREC or other production incentive. There are
also federal tax incentives.
In PG&E California areas, that could cut the installed price nearly in
half. $35K up front, $23K grid tied, $19K after taxes for 3800 watts.
do...@82.usenet.us.com
> I have not seen one post where somebody thought of
> something that is not included in standard business model.
That's because most of them dismiss this out of hand as a scam.
I don't. I think it is a viable business model, especially if the funding
is coming from members of some industry that are required to invest in
green energy.
There are two areas of concern for me.
One is that this is currently a vaporware startup. Where are the PV
production facilities, or even plans submitted to local agencies that would
allow them to build, manufacture and install in the next eighteen months?
Second is that they want to build panels that are not conventional.
They will be usable only in their system, and their system can only use
their panels. That might be a part of the business model.
> be a doubter but keep your eye on the news. The best is yet to come.
More news needs to be forthcoming.
> Lets keep this conversation going . I have learned much from the
> postings here and I hope that I have been some service to the
That's not so good. You are getting good information from some free
sources, each with their own agenda, instead of from a multi-million dollar
company's own research?
> Tim Padden
> Regional Sales Director
> (eight hundred) 730-9407
And why does this look like an Amway multi-level marketing scheme?
All these different spokespersons. You with a gmail address.