New Plug-in electric car
Rob
electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
Check this out:
http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-09-05.7581517191/groupaction_view
Eeyore
Rob wrote:
If it was any good, they'd get commercial finance.
A small page of aims and goals does NOT impress.
Graham
Mauried
Its essentially a wishlist.
This what we would like to see in an electric car.
Who wouldnt.
Unfortunately wishing for something doesnt make it happen.
Id like to see solar panels that cost 10 cents a watt.
Wonder why no one makes any.
Rob
wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> > You can support the development of a new American Made plug-in
> > electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
>
> > Check this out:
>
>
> If it was any good, they'd get commercial finance.
>
> A small page of aims and goals does NOT impress.
>
> Graham
The request is for money to develop the prototype. Having goals and
AIms isn't a bad thing. I mean, isn't that what the Declaration of
Independence was in essence?
Here is a link you should see too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
jp838
jp838
Did you ever search the web with 'electric car' ?
http://yananmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/0/209436236/electric_vehicle.html
Just an example: $5000, 120 km autonomy, 800Ah, max speed 50 km/
h, ...
Basically we commuters don't need more ! Our egos do.
There are many of them made in China.
Sholl
Eeyore
Mauried wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >Rob wrote:
> >
> >> You can support the development of a new American Made plug-in
> >> electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
> >>
> >> Check this out:
> >> http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-09-05.7581517191/groupaction_view
> >
> >If it was any good, they'd get commercial finance.
> >
> >A small page of aims and goals does NOT impress.
> >
> Its essentially a wishlist.
> This what we would like to see in an electric car.
> Who wouldnt.
> Unfortunately wishing for something doesnt make it happen.
> Id like to see solar panels that cost 10 cents a watt.
> Wonder why no one makes any.
Well ..... wishing doesn't make it happen does it ?
Graham
Eeyore
Rob wrote:
Sorry sunshine, 'pure' EV's are never going to make it. They are hopelessly
impractical.
PHEVs - yes.
Graham
Eeyore
jp838 wrote:
Haha a 30 mph toy.
Graham
Rob
wrote:
> jp838 wrote:
> > On 6 sep, 01:48, Rob <robmt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You can support the development of a new American Made plug-in
> > > electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
>
> > > Check this out:
>
> > >http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-09-05.758151719...
>
> > Did you ever search the web with 'electric car' ?
>
> > Just an example: $5000, 120 km autonomy, 800Ah, max speed 50 km/
> > h, ...
>
> > Basically we commuters don't need more ! Our egos do.
>
> > There are many of them made in China.
>
> Haha a 30 mph toy.
>
> Graham
What is in China right now is limited only because of a limited
market. What works in crowded chinese and European cities isn't
practical in the US. We must have 200 miles and 70 mph as a goal. It
can be done too, and has in the past.
Mauried
wrote:
>On Sep 6, 12:14=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> jp838 wrote:
>> > On 6 sep, 01:48, Rob <robmt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > You can support the development of a new American Made plug-in
>> > > electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
>>
>> > > Check this out:
>>
>> > >http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-09-05.758151719.=
>..
>>
>> > Did you ever search the web with 'electric car' ?
>>
>> >http://yananmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/0/209436236/electric_vehicle...
>> > Just an example: $5000, 120 km autonomy, 800Ah, max speed 50 km/
>> > h, ...
>>
>> > Basically we commuters don't need more ! Our egos do.
>>
>> > There are many of them made in China.
>>
>> Haha a 30 mph toy.
>>
>> Graham
>
>What is in China right now is limited only because of a limited
>market. What works in crowded chinese and European cities isn't
>practical in the US. We must have 200 miles and 70 mph as a goal. It
>can be done too, and has in the past.
Anything can be done if people are prepared to pay enough for the
final product.
EVs with the performance and the range you want can certainly be made,
but not at a price that anyone will pay.
You might ask why the Solectra never went into mass production and its
pretty obvious why.
The cost of the batterys in it would put the car well out of most
people price range.
The original Selectra had 26 KWH of NIMH battery capacity.
In todays prices , that battery capacity would cost around 80K.
NIMH batterys are the most expensive batterys on the market for EVs ,
which is why most existing EVs still use Lead Acid or Lithium Ions.
Even Lithium Ions are still far too expensive for affordable EVs.
Eeyore
Rob wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > jp838 wrote:
> > > On 6 sep, 01:48, Rob <robmt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > You can support the development of a new American Made plug-in
> > > > electric car with a donation as small as 10 dollars!
> >
> > > > Check this out:
> >
> > > >http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2008-09-05.758151719...
> >
> > > Did you ever search the web with 'electric car' ?
> >
> > >http://yananmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/0/209436236/electric_vehicle...
> > > Just an example: $5000, 120 km autonomy, 800Ah, max speed 50 km/
> > > h, ...
> >
> > > Basically we commuters don't need more ! Our egos do.
> >
> > > There are many of them made in China.
> >
> > Haha a 30 mph toy.
>
> What is in China right now is limited only because of a limited
> market. What works in crowded chinese and European cities isn't
> practical in the US. We must have 200 miles and 70 mph as a goal. It
> can be done too, and has in the past.
I agree about that. I doubt you'll find many Chinese buying these either. Have
you been there ?
Graham
Russ in San Diego
snip
> NIMH batterys are the most expensive batterys on the market for EVs ,
> which is why most existing EVs still use Lead Acid or Lithium Ions.
> Even Lithium Ions are still far too expensive for affordable EVs.
Actually, I think you've got it backwards. Lithium Ion batteries have
much higher energy density than NiMH, and are more expensive. They
also have thermal runaway problems that become worrisome, from a
safety point of view, in large conglomerations.
Most commercial hybrids use NiMH battery packs. The Tesla uses LiIon,
and PHEVs will probably use them -- but I'm not sure anyone has
figured out the thermal runaway solution yet. Tesla seem to think
they've got a safe vehicle, but somehow, neither Japan nor U.S. major
manufacturers are ready to mass-market a vehicle yet. Everyone knows
that Toyota wants a PHEV Prius on the market, but they keep pushing it
back because of the battery safety problem (not to mention the cost
issues).
Mauried
<russ...@gmail.com> wrote:
This battery is starting to look promising.
http://www.solartaxi.com/technology/zebra-battery/
Only downside is that it has to be left on charge when the car is not
in use.
Rob
>
> Only downside is that it has to be left on charge when the car is not
> in use.
When coupled with a solar charger it mitigates some of the discharge
loss. Thanks for sharing the information.
Rob
Mauried
wrote:
>On Sep 8, 5:52=A0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT), Russ in San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> <russg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sep 6, 4:56=3DA0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>>
>> >snip
>>
>> >> NIMH batterys are the most expensive batterys on the market for EVs ,
>> >> which is why most existing EVs still use Lead Acid or Lithium Ions.
>> >> Even Lithium Ions are still far too expensive for affordable EVs.
>>
>> >Actually, I think you've got it backwards. Lithium Ion batteries have
>> >much higher energy density than NiMH, and are more expensive. =A0They
>> >also have thermal runaway problems that become worrisome, from a
>> >safety point of view, in large conglomerations.
>>
>> >Most commercial hybrids use NiMH battery packs. =A0The Tesla uses LiIon,
>> >and PHEVs will probably use them -- but I'm not sure anyone has
>> >figured out the thermal runaway solution yet. =A0Tesla seem to think
>> >they've got a safe vehicle, but somehow, neither Japan nor U.S. major
>> >manufacturers are ready to mass-market a vehicle yet. =A0Everyone knows
>> >that Toyota wants a PHEV Prius on the market, but they keep pushing it
>> >back because of the battery safety problem (not to mention the cost
>> >issues).
>>
>> This battery is starting to look promising.http://www.solartaxi.com/techn=
>ology/zebra-battery/
>>
>> Only downside is that it has to be left on charge when the car is not
>> in use.
>
>When coupled with a solar charger it mitigates some of the discharge
>loss. Thanks for sharing the information.
>Rob
Its nothing to do with discharge loss, and everything to do with
keeping the internal temperature of the battery at 270C due to the
characteristics of the batterys electrolyte which is Sodium Aluminium
tetrachloride.
If the battery cools down, it ceases to function until it is heated up
again.
Mauried
wrote:
>On Sep 8, 5:52=A0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT), Russ in San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> <russg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sep 6, 4:56=3DA0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>>
>> >snip
>>
>> >> NIMH batterys are the most expensive batterys on the market for EVs ,
>> >> which is why most existing EVs still use Lead Acid or Lithium Ions.
>> >> Even Lithium Ions are still far too expensive for affordable EVs.
>>
>> >Actually, I think you've got it backwards. Lithium Ion batteries have
>> >much higher energy density than NiMH, and are more expensive. =A0They
>> >also have thermal runaway problems that become worrisome, from a
>> >safety point of view, in large conglomerations.
>>
>> >Most commercial hybrids use NiMH battery packs. =A0The Tesla uses LiIon,
>> >and PHEVs will probably use them -- but I'm not sure anyone has
>> >figured out the thermal runaway solution yet. =A0Tesla seem to think
>> >they've got a safe vehicle, but somehow, neither Japan nor U.S. major
>> >manufacturers are ready to mass-market a vehicle yet. =A0Everyone knows
>> >that Toyota wants a PHEV Prius on the market, but they keep pushing it
>> >back because of the battery safety problem (not to mention the cost
>> >issues).
>>
>> This battery is starting to look promising.http://www.solartaxi.com/techn=
>ology/zebra-battery/
>>
>> Only downside is that it has to be left on charge when the car is not
>> in use.
>
>When coupled with a solar charger it mitigates some of the discharge
>loss. Thanks for sharing the information.
>Rob
This article may be of some help.
http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:1Z0nN5SSQFsJ:www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Zebra_SAE_1999.doc+vehicles+with+zebra+batteries&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=au&client=firefox-a
Note that the cars in this project are using 25 KWH Zebra batteries,
and getting 150 KMs range.
I have had no success getting any prices for Zebra batteries.
I would abandon the idea of using batteries of any type and instead
look at something like
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0406/04062401toshibafuel.asp
Methanol Fuel Cells.
Batteries, no matter what sort , are simply too heavy.
Rob
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:56:55 -0700 (PDT), Rob <robmt...@gmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I had never heard of theis battery before. Requirine a 270C temp
reduces functionality quite a bit , I would imagine.
Rob
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:56:55 -0700 (PDT), Rob <robmt...@gmail.com>
>
> Note that the cars in this project are using 25 KWH Zebra batteries,
> and getting 150 KMs range.
>
> I have had no success getting any prices for Zebra batteries.
>
> I would abandon the idea of using batteries of any type and instead
> look at something like
>
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0406/04062401toshibafuel.asp
> Methanol Fuel Cells.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The problem with fuel cells is that you have to have a battery to
provide the power for sudden demands for additional current. Fuel
cells produce at a constant rate. SO even with a cell you still would
need a battery.
Eeyore
Rob wrote:
> Mauried wrote:
> >
> > Its nothing to do with discharge loss, and everything to do with
> > keeping the internal temperature of the battery at 270C due to the
> > characteristics of the batterys electrolyte which is Sodium Aluminium
> > tetrachloride.
> >
> > If the battery cools down, it ceases to function until it is heated up
> > again.
>
> I had never heard of theis battery before. Requirine a 270C temp
> reduces functionality quite a bit , I would imagine.
They've been round a while. Never caught on much for the reasons you suggest.
Graham
Eeyore
Rob wrote:
> The problem with fuel cells is that you have to have a battery to
> provide the power for sudden demands for additional current. Fuel
> cells produce at a constant rate. SO even with a cell you still would
> need a battery.
Another nail in the hydrogen coffin.
Graham
Mauried
wrote:
>On Sep 8, 11:18=A0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:56:55 -0700 (PDT), Rob <robmt...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Sep 8, 5:52=3DA0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT), Russ in San Diego
>>
>> >> <russg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Sep 6, 4:56=3D3DA0pm, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>>
>> >> >snip
>>
>> >> >> NIMH batterys are the most expensive batterys on the market for EVs=
> ,
>> >> >> which is why most existing EVs still use Lead Acid or Lithium Ions.
>> >> >> Even Lithium Ions are still far too expensive for affordable EVs.
>>
>> >> >Actually, I think you've got it backwards. Lithium Ion batteries have
>> >> >much higher energy density than NiMH, and are more expensive. =3DA0Th=
>ey
>> >> >also have thermal runaway problems that become worrisome, from a
>> >> >safety point of view, in large conglomerations.
>>
>> >> >Most commercial hybrids use NiMH battery packs. =3DA0The Tesla uses L=
>iIon,
>> >> >and PHEVs will probably use them -- but I'm not sure anyone has
>> >> >figured out the thermal runaway solution yet. =3DA0Tesla seem to thin=
>k
>> >> >they've got a safe vehicle, but somehow, neither Japan nor U.S. major
>> >> >manufacturers are ready to mass-market a vehicle yet. =3DA0Everyone k=
>nows
>> >> >that Toyota wants a PHEV Prius on the market, but they keep pushing i=
>t
>> >> >back because of the battery safety problem (not to mention the cost
>> >> >issues).
>>
>> >> This battery is starting to look promising.http://www.solartaxi.com/te=
>chn=3D
>> >ology/zebra-battery/
>>
>> >> Only downside is that it has to be left on charge when the car is not
>> >> in use.
>>
>> >When coupled with a solar charger it mitigates some of the discharge
>> >loss. Thanks for sharing the information.
>> >Rob
>>
>> This article may be of some help.http://209.85.141.104/search?q=3Dcache:1=
>Z0nN5SSQFsJ:www.meridian-int-re...
>>
>> Note that the cars in this project are using 25 KWH Zebra batteries,
>> and getting 150 KMs range.
>>
>> I have had no success getting any prices for Zebra batteries.
>>
>> I would abandon the idea of using batteries of any type and instead
>> look at something like
>>
>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0406/04062401toshibafuel.asp
>> Methanol Fuel Cells.
>>
>> Batteries, no matter what sort , are simply too heavy.- Hide quoted text =
>-
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>The problem with fuel cells is that you have to have a battery to
>provide the power for sudden demands for additional current. Fuel
>cells produce at a constant rate. SO even with a cell you still would
>need a battery.
No you dont.
http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080805FCX-Clarity/
Im not a fan of hydrogen as a fuel as its not a liquid at normal
temperatures which means hi pressure tanks which are heavy and the
energy used to compress the hydrogen is lost.
Fuel cells that use normal liquid fuels make much more sense.
You can even use normal gasoline if you wish.
http://whyfiles.org/069renew_energy/5.html
Eeyore
Mauried wrote:
> Im not a fan of hydrogen as a fuel as its not a liquid at normal
> temperatures which means hi pressure tanks which are heavy and the
> energy used to compress the hydrogen is lost.
Me likewise, the energy losses are idiotic.
> Fuel cells that use normal liquid fuels make much more sense.
> You can even use normal gasoline if you wish.
> http://whyfiles.org/069renew_energy/5.html
Methanol cells seem to be getting a lot of attention right now.
Graham