Rabbiting on about Solar Power
George Ghio
George
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Duane C. Johnson
George Ghio <go...@netscape.net> wrote:
> I find a lot of you people hard to understand.
> It just is not that hard to set up solar power.
> You lot act as though your inventing it from scratch.
Some of us are inventing.
> I live in central Victoria, Australia and most the
> people I know use solar power. The maths are straight
> forward.
I agree, the theory is easy enough to understand.
> And whats with golf cart batteries?
> Why not use batteries designed for the job?
Many say that these batteries are designed for the job.
> They will last you a lot longer and cost less in
> the long haul. Perhaps the trouble is you have short
> arms and long pockets. You sure don't seem to want
> to pay for your freedom.
Bingo! Now you know where the inventing is needed.
>My power supply cost less than $8000 Aus dollars.
> I have no complaints.
While you didn't say what the $8000Au bought I suspect
that it was very expensive when compared to buying
the power from the power grid.
What many of us are trying to do is generate solar
derived power at an installation cost that directly
competes with the grid.
We're not there yet and there is quite a resistance
to actually doing it.
> Get your act together, work out how much power you
> need, Which may not be whant you want but you probly
> use too much power as it is.
I agree.
> Then Get in touch with me and we will work out a deal
> to get you set up.
> go...@netscape.net I do this for a living my charges
> are fair and there's no bull shit. Simple system
> sizing to full system design. While your thinking
> about it consider this $100 US is worth around
> $150 Aus you cant loose.
Here's the challenge to you.!
Can you give us a system that will have an installation
cost of about $1.00us / Watt. Some have said that this
cost, along with the interest expense, is about break
even with the power grid.
With PV raw costs around $4.00us per watt one looses
compared to the grid. Even when you have to pay the
monthly energy costs.
Can you deliver a truly cost effective system that
every one can afford? Instead of just for the few who
are currently of grid?
> George
Have fun! Duane C. Johnson
From one of those on this list who is trying to
invent cost effective solutions to the solar
problem.
--
CUL8ER \ \ \ \ \ \\ \ \ Receiver
Powered by\ \ \ \ \ \\ \ \ [*]
Thermonuclear \ \Solar\Energy\from the Sun \ /////|
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\ \ \ \ \ /\ / \/ / / / |
WA0VBE \ \ \ \ / /\ \/ / / \/ /|
Ziggy \ \ \/ / / \ \/ \/ /\ |
\ / \ \/ / /\ \\ / \ / / |
"Red Rock Energy" === ===\ / \ / \ === \ / ===
Duane C. Johnson, Designer=== === \ \ === / |
1825 Florence St Mirrors,Heliostats,Controls & Mounts|
White Bear Lake, Minnesota \ \ / |
USA 55110-3364 \ \ |
(612)635-5O65 work \ \ / |
(651)426-4766 home copyright \ \ |
(612)583-2O62 Red Rock Energy Site (C)980907 \ / |
red...@redrok.com (my primary email: address)===\ |
\ |
duane....@unisys.com (Unisys address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com/index.htm (My New Web site) \ |
\|
These are my opinions, and not that of Unisys Corp. ===
Philip Mccrory
What kind of battery are you referring to? Golf cart batteries are deep
cycle batteries. What other battery would be designed for the job?
Just wondering,
Phil
George Ghio wrote:
>
> I find a lot of you people hard to understand. It just is not that hard to set up solar power. You lot act as though your inventing it from scratch. I live in central Victoria, Australia and most the people I know use solar power. The maths are straight forward. And whats with golf cart batteries? Why not use batteries designed for the job? They will last you a lot longer and cost less in the long haul. Perhaps the trouble is you have short arms and long pockets. You sure don't seem to want to pay for your freedom. My power supply cost less than $8000 Aus dollars. I have no complaints. Get your act together, work out how much power you need, Which may not be whant you want but you probly use too much power as it is. Then Get in touch with me and we will work out a deal to get you set up. go...@netscape.net I do this for a living my charges are fair and thereis no bull shit. Simple system sizing to full system design. While your thinking about it consider this $100 US is worth around
> $150 Aus you cant loose.
>
> George
>
> -- Posted Using GroupReader.com, a free Newsgroup/discussion reader. --
--
--- Phil McCrory - pmcc...@bellsouth.net -----------------------
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Ron Rosenfeld
Gee, if I could get PV's installed for $3.50us/watt, it would be less
expensive for me not only than grid extension, but also less expensive than
a wind turbine.
--ron
Duane C. Johnson wrote in message <37E4CEE3...@redrok.com>...
Steve Spence
save a lot of money. pv panels can be found for about $100/amp. total
systems run about $9-$15/watt. (not including the generator)
--
--
Steve Spence
Survive2k's Survival Pages
http://www.webconx.com/survive2k
http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel
--
Ron Rosenfeld <ronros...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7s2mm2$id6$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Steve Spence
golf cart battery. I believe it's considered an "industrial" battery. any
corrections?
--
--
Steve Spence
Survive2k's Survival Pages
http://www.webconx.com/survive2k
http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel
--
Philip Mccrory <pmcc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37E4E39A...@bellsouth.net...
Duane C. Johnson
Ron Rosenfeld <ronros...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Duane,
> Gee, if I could get PV's installed for $3.50us/watt,
> it would be less expensive for me not only than grid
> extension, but also less expensive than
> a wind turbine.
How do you figure that $3.50us/Watt is break even
with the grid? That was the subject.
George was suggesting that those of us in the industry
were unrealistic in our need for lower cost solar
electric generation. I am suggesting that PV is not
ready to be that energy source because, at present,
it costs too much.
I mentioned the $4.00us/Watt as the raw cost of the
PV. Then one needs the mount and wiring. Of course
one wouldn't need the batteries if connected to the
grid. The rest would need batteries.
Many have said that the total is about double the
cost of the PV. This sounds about $8.00us/Watt.
Then you have to pay for it up front so you either
need to borrow the money or take it out of savings.
Either way you it costs you interest.
All that being said. This is why the figure of
about $1.00us/Watt installed cost is the goal
for solar electric production. Also the waste
heat needs to be used for domestic heating.
These concepts can be worked out. I'm confident
that systems can be devised. I and others are
working hard to attain these goals.
We are not wackos nor crackpots. God knows we have
enough of these free energy types in these news
groups. Strait forward science should and will
solve these problems.
My studies using heliostat mirror arrays is only
one possibility. See:
Doug Goncz with solar trough concentrators
International Solar Collectors, Inc.
SunTherm Energy Systems, Inc.
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#trough
> --ron
> George Ghio <go...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > Here's the challenge to you.!
> > Can you give us a system that will have an
> > installation cost of about $1.00us / Watt.
> > Some have said that this cost, along with the
> > interest expense, is about break even with
> > the power grid.
> > With PV raw costs around $4.00us per watt one looses
> > compared to the grid. Even when you have to pay the
> > monthly energy costs.
> > Can you deliver a truly cost effective system that
> > every one can afford? Instead of just for the few who
> > are currently of grid?
--
Zane Kori
<go...@netscape.net> wrote:
I canšt speak for the people in Australia, but I can speak for most of
the people in the USA. For us, solar energy is a novelty, we donšt take
it seriously. I only became interested in it a few months ago. Itšs
only a hobby for me. Power here where I live only cost seven and one
half cent a KW. Why would anyone want to seriously consider solar
energy at that low price? My electric bill is always less than $100.00
a month, and some parts of the year less than $50.00 a month. I have
lived here in Abilene, Texas five years, and we have never had a black
out. Perhaps in Australia conditions are different, but here in the
USA, solar energy is low on our list of priorities for the average
citizen. For most of us here one days work earnings can pay our monthly
electric bill, so we donšt think in terms of solar electric. We mostly
donšt think of it at all. We are more interested in new or bigger
homes, and new cars or pickups. I agree solar power systems are simple,
but to many of us here in the USA itšs new and strange when we first
get into it because we don't think in terms of making our own solar
power. And for many of us, itšs nothing more than a hobby. We like to
play with it, and discuss it. Or sometimes we put up some panels on our
roof to be the center of attention in our neighborhood.
I think your mistake, is to think that we take solar serious here in
the USA. We donšt. Maybe someday USA citizens will, but right now times
are good and energy is plentiful and cheap, and we donšt think much
about solar energy.
Best Regards
Zane Kori
Jan Knutar
<red...@redrok.com> wrote:
>While you didn't say what the $8000Au bought I suspect
>that it was very expensive when compared to buying
>the power from the power grid.
>
>What many of us are trying to do is generate solar
>derived power at an installation cost that directly
>competes with the grid.
If he said thta most of his friends use solar power, it porbably means
tht he lives quite a long way from the nearest power grid.
If so is the case then $8000 is quite cheaper than having to build
miles and miles of eletriciy wires to connect to the nearest grid.
-JK
DON FRANCIS
on. The u.s.a. have the largest manufacturing plants in the world .Europe is
now installing commercial solar installation and many other countries are
doing the same. Solar installations are installed for many other reasons
than cost and a Australia would not be the leader. it is a shame that the
industry has people with very little knowledge who are prepared express
opinion which far from correct.
don francis
Zane Kori wrote in message <190919991107279134%dia...@camalott.com>...
Albrecht Kadlec
and usually the land prices are quite inexpensive in areas without
infrastructure. This can easily offset the costs of the PV system,
if you're out for a bigger preoperty.
What's $8000 compared to the costs of a decent property.
(especially here in Europe)
--
Albrecht Kadlec
Vienna University of Technology / Department of Automation
----------------------------------------------------------
You pick out your credit cards and check into the night
A dozen tequilas and you're feeling alright -- Marillion
George Ghio
> I find a lot of you people hard to understand.
> It just is not that hard to set up solar power.
> You lot act as though your inventing it from scratch.
> people I know use solar power. The maths are straight
> forward.
> Why not use batteries designed for the job?
> the long haul. Perhaps the trouble is you have short
> arms and long pockets. You sure don't seem to want
> to pay for your freedom.
> I have no complaints.
that it was very expensive when compared to buying
the power from the power grid.
What many of us are trying to do is generate solar
derived power at an installation cost that directly
competes with the grid.
to actually doing it.
> need, Which may not be whant you want but you
probly
> use too much power as it is.
> Then Get in touch with me and we will work out a deal
> to get you set up.
> go...@netscape.net I do this for a living my charges
> about it consider this $100 US is worth around
> $150 Aus you cant loose.
Can you give us a system that will have an installation
cost of about $1.00us / Watt. Some have said that this
cost, along with the interest expense, is about break
even with the power grid.
With PV raw costs around $4.00us per watt one looses
compared to the grid. Even when you have to pay the
monthly energy costs.
Can you deliver a truly cost effective system that
every one can afford? Instead of just for the few who
are currently of grid?
Have fun! Duane C. Johnson
From one of those on this list who is trying to
invent cost effective solutions to the solar
problem.
CUL8ER \ \ \ \ \ \\ \ \ Receiver
Powered by\ \ \ \ \ \\ \ \ [*]
Thermonuclear \ \Solar\Energy\from the Sun \ /////|
Energy(the Sun) \ \ \ \ \\ \ / / /\/ / /|
\ \ \ \ \ /\ / \/ / / / |
WA0VBE \ \ \ \ / /\ \/ / / \/ /|
Ziggy \ \ \/ / / \ \/ \/ /\ |
\ / \ \/ / /\ \\ / \ / / |
"Red Rock Energy" === ===\ / \ / \ === \ / ===
Duane C. Johnson, Designer=== === \ \ === / |
1825 Florence St Mirrors,Heliostats,Controls & Mounts|
White Bear Lake, Minnesota \ \ / |
USA 55110-3364 \ \ |
(612)635-5O65 work \ \ / |
(651)426-4766 home copyright \ \ |
(612)583-2O62 Red Rock Energy Site (C)980907 \ / |
red...@redrok.com (my primary email: address)===\ |
\ |
duane....@unisys.com (Unisys address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com/index.htm (My New Web site) \ |
\|
These are my opinions, and not that of Unisys Corp. ===
4- 42watt solarex panels + 1 80 watt solarex vlx 80 panel
6- 2volt 320 amp hour gell cells
1- 20 amp regulator
1- 150 watt sine wave inverter
I run Tv, radio, lights and computer off this system using low voltage where ever possable.
I make a lot of my own lights and for the most part use halogen lamps. I don't run a lot of consumer rubbish. Most definitely no phantom loads i.e. clocks timers or other power wasters.
I live only three k's from the grid but the cost was $32000 for connection this is due to the fact that I am the only one likly to be connected on this line so no cost sharing to spread the cost. so the true cost would be $32000 + $.16 per kwh.
System 2
$17000 for 3.2 kwh per day
3.2kwh x 365days =1168kwh per year
1168kwh x 15 years = 17520kwh
$17000 / 17520kwh = $.97 per kwh
This system was installed for a customer and is working fine. With good maint. the batteries cold last for up to 20 years.
figures in email are only a quick job sorry if not spot on.
George Ghio
I grew up in calif. and was aware of solar power as the power of the future then now is the future so dont be a dinosaure
Zane Kori
the people in the USA...
Most people I have talked to know nothing about solar energy, and would
not even consider using it because seven and one-half cent a KW is
cheap here in Abilene, Texas. I have lived in other USA states and the
feeling is similar. I can drive all over any city in the USA and it
would be pure luck to even find a solar panel on a roof or in the yard.
I could drive around all day here in Texas cities and never find one
anywhere. I am sure this will change in the next centery, but today
solar (for most USA citizens) is not considered, thought of, takled
about. And that was my point in my post.
Best Regards
Zane Kori
sy...@syslink.mcs.com
>
> This system was installed for a customer and is working fine. With
> good maint. the batteries cold last for up to 20 years.
>
>
>
> figures in email are only a quick job sorry if not spot on.
>
> George
>
George,
out here in Berwyn,IL (a suburb of Chicago), we use about 430 kwh per month
except for the summer. Based on average sunlight of 4 hours or less, it's
still going to cost us BIG BUCKS to be totally off the grid. I'd like to
find a computer program that can calculate total system costs for a solar
backup system based on known daily/monthly wattage and average daily
sunlight. For example, 400 kwh monthly usage x 4 hours daily average
sunlight = $25,000 total system cost (solar panels, batteries, inverters,
controller, etc,etc) or some correct amount.
George ...
Anne Watson
Steve Spence wrote in message <_XzF3.969$313....@typhoon1.gnilink.net>...
>my calculator has one, as does my cell phone battery.
>
As does my motorhome 2 in fact. One to keep vehicle battery charged. one
to run lights, furnace,
and pump.
Completely self sufficient in the Southwest (Arizona)
Steve Spence
--
--
Steve Spence
Survive2k's Survival Pages
http://www.webconx.com/survive2k
http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel
--
R.H. Allen <kka...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7s67en$18...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> DON FRANCIS wrote in message <37e5d...@pink.one.net.au>...
> >You are oblivious to your surroundings or you live in a barrel with the
> lid
> >on. The u.s.a. have the largest manufacturing plants in the world
>
> That's like saying Ferraris are made in Italy, therefore Ferraris must be
> commonplace there. First off, the annual output of America's PV plants is
> equivalent to some 0.05% of the nation's annual energy consumption -- just
> because we have the biggest factories doesn't mean solar panels are as
> common as breakfast cereal. To further illustrate the point, some 60-70%
of
> energy in the US is derived from coal (that figure is higher in Australia,
I
> believe), yet few Americans can tell you where they've ever seen a
> coal-burning power plant.
>
> Second, more than half the panels produced in the US are exported to
Japan,
> Europe, and third world countries. The ones that are used in the US are
used
> mostly for remote power applications, such as cell phone towers, remote
> radio repeaters, and off-grid homes -- places the average person isn't
> likely to spot them. The small number that ARE used in more urban settings
> are usually situated on rooftops or other high mounts, where they aren't
> likely to be noticed by anyone who isn't looking for them (there's a 340
kW
> array smack in the middle of Atlanta, but the vast majority of those who
> walk or drive past it don't notice it because it's mounted on a rooftop).
My
> experience has been that the most common places to find solar panels in
> action in the US is at roadside cell phone transmitters and, in recent
> years, atop the lighted highway road signs used at construction sites.
> Beyond that, they're practically nowhere to be found.
>
> >Europe is
> >now installing commercial solar installation and many other countries are
> >doing the same. Solar installations are installed for many other reasons
> >than cost and a Australia would not be the leader.
>
> They're small demonstration projects designed to illustrated the
> feasibility, the costs, and the benefits that come with a relatively new
> technology. Few of them are really being counted upon to pull their
weight.
> Few meaningful installations will occur until PV is cost-competitive with
> other energy sources. And, as you mentioned, these installations are
> commercial, installed for political, environmental, or experimental
reasons,
> but rarely because they're going to turn a profit. The folks talking about
> cost in this newsgroup are typically considering installations for their
> homes and operate on limited budgets. They, too, have many different
reasons
> for wanting to go solar, but they also have to feed their families.
> Therefore, cost MUST be an issue.
>
>
Steve Spence
--
--
Steve Spence
Survive2k's Survival Pages
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Anne Watson <an...@azstarnet.com> wrote in message
news:rudtp2...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Steve Spence wrote in message
<_XzF3.969$313....@typhoon1.gnilink.net>...
> >my calculator has one, as does my cell phone battery.
> >
Steve Spence
amazing how many "educated" people think, because that they are an expert in
one area, that automatically makes them expert in all areas. wonder what
that person would think of a homecooked meal in a solar oven?
--
--
Steve Spence
Survive2k's Survival Pages
http://www.webconx.com/survive2k
http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel
--
Stephen Pritchard <p213...@ee.unsw.eduDOTau> wrote in message
news:37E72B6C...@ee.unsw.eduDOTau...
I think the situation is much the same in Australia, despite George's
comments. I am studying photovoltaics at university, and whenever people I
meet ask me what I am studying, I have found that nobody is familiar with
the term 'photovoltaics', and one or two even didn't know what 'solar power'
meant!
When I say that I study solar electric power, some people then
enthusiastically start talking about the solar hot water system on the roof
of their house, and are not aware that there is a difference between
photovoltaics and solar thermal.
One of my friends even started arguing heatedly with me over the way a solar
hot water system worked. I told her that there is no (for a non-backed up
system) electricity involved, just the capturing of the energy in sunlight
as heat, like in a greenhouse. She claimed that there was NO WAY that the
sun could make water hot enough, and that the solar hot water heater must be
converting to electricity first, and then to heat. She would not listen to
me, even though she is well educated, and I am doing a PhD in
photovoltaics!!!!!!
Either my credibility is abysmally low, my friend is stubborn, or else there
is precious little information about solar energy being disseminated in
Australian society.
Steve
Zane Kori
I am not saying anyone should push the use of Solar panels. I believe
that when the need arises, they will be sought out by the public for
use. Probably in this coming century.
But, if for instance Wal Mart stared carrying a full line of solar
panels, and SAMs, and Sears, and Kmart. And if there were ads on Tv and
ads in the paper for solar panels. And if all the local colleges and
universities offered free night classes on installing a solar home
system, then... maybe the USA would head down the solar road. But until
I see something like the above, where solar panels are advertised as
commonly as cars, or any other product, I don¹t see Americans becoming
much educated, or carring, about solar.
If the government were really interested in promoting solar for the
sake of reducing green house gases, this would the route. They would
have to give the big retail chains a stake in gaining profits, though
tax breaks, or something like that. Perhaps the government could pay
for the tv spot ads for the retail chains. Or perhaps, heaven forbid,
take off one income tax dollar for every dollar spent on a solar home
system. (not fifty cents, but dollar for dollar) But, probably then the
power companies would counter any move like this by putting large sums
in the coffers of the office runners.
But, don¹t mistake me intention. I don¹t think the government should do
any of the above. I am just thinking aloud. But when you ask how to get
the public aware of solar energy, you have to get it on TV, so people
can see the panels on commercials. You have to get the panels out in
the stores where people can touch them and see them. It has to seem
like part of the normal American life routine to the USA citizens and
not something for extremists. (Like me.) It has to enter that realm
where the wife says to her husband, ³Well our next door neighbor has a
solar panel, why can¹t we have one.²
Best Regards
Zane Kori
TheSavagePossum
to learn it some where. How many arc burns did you get getting to where you
are today? Fried circuits? It's great that you live where there's no
infrastructure and I guess our misfortune living where we do have one.
George Ghio <go...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:GoqF3.6882$zI3....@iad-read.news.verio.net...
TheSavagePossum
companies on this simple(ton) premises.
Steve Spence <ssp...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:pVKF3.728$SB3....@typhoon2.gnilink.net...
George Ghio
the hard way. tell me what do you think is going to happen in the new year to make your power secure. I am not talking about Y2K either. We are intering into a period of sun spot activity the likes of which blacked out the eastern seaboard some years ago. But my choice was based on my not wanting to support a power co. that did not give a stuff for me or future generations. Also I have had not one power outage in 14 years. I am only 3 k's from the grid and didnot want it.
Anthony Matonak
Actually, I think there are some system-design calculator-estimator
pages out there somewhere that do just this thing. I'm sure any
solar system installer could do some rough calculations for you pretty
quick for no charge.
I personally know you can get panels for about $5.00 a watt. And
balance of system costs I've heard are another buck or two per watt.
So, 430 kwh per month (figure 30 days) about 14 (14 and a third) kwh
a day. At 4 hours average, you'll need at least 3.5 kw of panels.
At $5 a watt, that 3500 watts is gonna cost minimum $17,500.
Add another $7000 for balance of system and we're talking somewhere
in the $24,500 ballpark. I'd say your original $25,000 off the cuff
isn't too far off.
Now, if that 4 hours average is for the entire year, that might mean
you only get a couple of hours in the winter. You're choices are
to oversize the system for summer to squeak through the winter or
reduce your demand in the winter (or use a supplemental source of
power like a generator). If you oversize, figure another $25,000.
You could probably realize some savings by instituting some form
of conservation measures, like more efficient appliances and lights.
After all, even a 10% reduction might mean $5,000 in savings.
Of course, at 10 cents a kwh your monthly bills of 430 kwh's are
probably only $43.00 or so. Heck, cable TV costs more than that
these days. You could always just buy a couple thousand dollar
generator for those weeks without power when the blizzard knocks
out the power lines.
Anthony
sy...@syslink.mcs.com
>
> You could probably realize some savings by instituting some form
> of conservation measures, like more efficient appliances and lights.
> After all, even a 10% reduction might mean $5,000 in savings.
>
> Of course, at 10 cents a kwh your monthly bills of 430 kwh's are
> probably only $43.00 or so. Heck, cable TV costs more than that
> these days. You could always just buy a couple thousand dollar
> generator for those weeks without power when the blizzard knocks
> out the power lines.
>
> Anthony
Tony,
that's exactly what we did. We bought a small 1000 watt Honda generator in
case the power goes out.
George ...
Duane C. Johnson
I think this thread has been diverging from the original
questions.
I wish to redirect it to a more productive direction.
For purposes of discussion I have used a rule of thumb
that says that grid power, in the US, costs between about
$.06us/KWhr to $.15us/KWhr. Also, the installation cost of a
grid power plant, in the US, is about $1.00us/W.
Of course these estimates are subject to changes with
time and better information.
Further, time value of money must be factored into the
decision. Any practical system must pay for or obtain
financing up front.
The methods for comparing costs between purchasing
power from the grid and producing your own power is
done differently.
When purchasing power one pays money to the power
company monthly forever.
When producing power, especially with solar, there are
no fuel costs. There is some maintenance. And of course
there is the interest costs associated with the up
front equipment purchase.
Also, one must ignore that the power from the grid is
subsidized. The government is not about to remove these
subsidies to the power generating companies. We will
just have to live with and compete with the abnormally
low cost of power from the grid in the US.
I suspect that there are substantial subsidies in other
countries as well.
Some states, such as California, are offering equipment
rebates and subsidies to the individual power producer.
This can substantially change the cost balance in your
favor.
---------
I think that there are three basic categories of user
that need, or want, to produce their own power.
1. Those who by necessity need to produce their own power
because they don't have access to the power grid.
Category 1 power producers need their power and need it
now. They are willing to obtain that power even though
it is expensive. They know that the installation costs
will be high because they must purchase there equipment
at today's prices.
PV installations are at least $8.00us/Watt.
2. Those who want to have a feeling of self sufficiency
even though they have access to the power grid.
Category 2 is a little harder to pin down. The
costs are not as important to them. Their main goal is
a Green one. They want to show they are saving the
planet. These people are willing to ignore the fact
that the power they produce cost more to produce than
the money they receive from the grid company.
Category 2 also encompasses people who want to be
prepared for emergencies.
3. Those who want to sell power to the power grid.
The only practical for category 3 people way to sell
power to the grid is to do it on an even cost basic
with the grid.
I maintain that the cost of your power generation
equipment must be about the same as that for the
power companies, maybe a little more. The fuel savings
compensate for the interest cost.
This situation is called the break even cost. For
one to make profit the installation costs needs to be
lower.
---------
This was a description of the current state of things.
No wonder there are few people who are currently using
PV or other sources of energy to produce power.
There is currently only a small percentage of the
population in the US that don't have access to the
power grid. They, category 1, are the most receptive to
the current high cost of renewable energy equipment.
These people will buy the equipment no mater how much
the cost.
Category 2, the Environmentalists and emergency prepare,
are willing to pay extra but the lower the cost the more
equipment they will buy.
Category 3 will only buy equipment when its competitive
with the grid. Once the equipment is low enough in cost
these will purchase equipment in enormous quantities.
Essentially categories 1 and 2 disappear when the costs
are low enough.
Only you can decide which category you are in. I
suspect that many are just waiting until the promised
cost reductions are available.
Duane C. johnson <red...@redrok.com> wrote:
> George Ghio <go...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > I find a lot of you people hard to understand.
> > It just is not that hard to set up solar power.
> > You lot act as though your inventing it from scratch.
> Some of us are inventing.
> > I live in central Victoria, Australia and most the
> > people I know use solar power. The maths are straight
> > forward.
> I agree, the theory is easy enough to understand.
> > They will last you a lot longer and cost less in
> > the long haul. Perhaps the trouble is you have short
> > arms and long pockets. You sure don't seem to want
> > to pay for your freedom.
> Bingo! Now you know where the inventing is needed.
> >My power supply cost less than $8000 Aus dollars.
> > I have no complaints.
> While you didn't say what the $8000Au bought I suspect
> that it was very expensive when compared to buying
> the power from the power grid.
> What many of us are trying to do is generate solar
> derived power at an installation cost that directly
> competes with the grid.
> We're not there yet and there is quite a resistance
> to actually doing it.
> > Get your act together, work out how much power you
> > need, Which may not be whant you want but you
> > probably use too much power as it is.
> I agree.
> > Then Get in touch with me and we will work out a
> > deal to get you set up.
> > go...@netscape.net I do this for a living my charges
> > are fair and there's no bull shit. Simple system
> > sizing to full system design. While your thinking
> > about it consider this $100 US is worth around
> > $150 Aus you cant loose.
> Here's the challenge to you.!
> Can you give us a system that will have an installation
> cost of about $1.00us / Watt. Some have said that this
> cost, along with the interest expense, is about break
> even with the power grid.
> With PV raw costs around $4.00us per watt one looses
> compared to the grid. Even when you have to pay the
> monthly energy costs.
> Can you deliver a truly cost effective system that
> every one can afford? Instead of just for the few who
> are currently of grid?
> > George
> Have fun! Duane C. Johnson
> From one of those on this list who is trying to
> invent cost effective solutions to the solar
> problem.
Checkout some of the concepts that I have been talking
about. How I and a David Wells and others plan on
breaking that $1.00us/Watt barrier. See:
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#concepts
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#up970331
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#up980301
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#engine
We are trying very hare to make a cost effective solar
powered heat engine to make electricity. Our goal is
the $1.00/Watt price barrier. I am confident that if
we don't do it others will.
> > My system as it stands now supplies me with 375 watt
> > hours per day average.
> > 4- 42watt solarex panels + 1 80 watt solarex vlx 80 panel
> > 6- 2volt 320 amp hour gell cells
> > 1- 20 amp regulator
> > 1- 150 watt sine wave inverter
> > I run Tv, radio, lights and computer off this system using
> > low voltage where ever possable.
> > I make a lot of my own lights and for the most part use
> > halogen lamps. I don't run a lot of consumer rubbish. Most
> > definitely no phantom loads i.e. clocks timers or othe
> > power wasters. I live only three k's from the grid but the
> > cost was $32000 for connection this is due to the fact that
> > I am the only one likly to be connected on this line so no
> > cost sharing to spread the cost. so the true cost would be
> > $32000 + $.16 per kwh.
> > System 2
> > $17000 for 3.2 kwh per day
> > 3.2kwh x 365days =1168kwh per year
> > 1168kwh x 15 years = 17520kwh
> > $17000 / 17520kwh = $.97 per kwh
> > This system was installed for a customer and is working
> > fine. With good maint. the batteries cold last for up to
> > 20 years. figures in email are only a quick job sorry if
> > not spot on.
> > George
Both of these systems are category 1. You don't mind to much
the high cost of the equipment
Duane C. Johnson
A couple extra comments suggested by an email I got from
Nick Pine.
"Duane C. Johnson" <red...@redrok.com> wrote:
> I think this thread has been diverging from the original
> questions.
> I wish to redirect it to a more productive direction.
> For purposes of discussion I have used a rule of thumb
> that says that grid power, in the US, costs between about
> $.06us/KWhr to $.15us/KWhr. Also, the installation cost
> of a grid power plant, in the US, is about $1.00us/W.
> Of course these estimates are subject to changes with
> time and better information.
Do any of you have more accurate estimates of power plant
installation costs?
Many cities have power plants within cities who sell
rejected heat to their communities. This extra revenue
stream would increase the installation costs but have
a shorter pay back period. Also they would save on the
cooling tower.
> 1. Those who, by necessity, need to produce their own power
> because they don't have access to the power grid.
> Category 1 power producers need their power and need it
> now. They are willing to obtain that power even though
> it is expensive. They know that the installation costs
> will be high because they must purchase there equipment
> at today's prices.
> PV installations are at least $8.00us/Watt.
> 2. Those who want to have a feeling of self sufficiency
> even though they have access to the power grid.
> Category 2 is a little harder to pin down. The
> costs are not as important to them. Their main goal is
> a Green one. They want to show they are saving the
> planet. These people are willing to ignore the fact
> that the power they produce cost more to produce than
> the money they receive from the grid company.
And impress their friends, and indulge in expensive hobbies.
> Category 2 also encompasses people who want to be
> prepared for emergencies.
> 3. Those who want to sell power to the power grid.
> The only practical way, for category 3 people, to sell
> power to the grid is to do it on an even cost basis
> with the grid.
> I maintain that the cost of your power generation
> equipment must be about the same as that for the
> power companies, maybe a little more. The fuel savings
> compensate for the interest cost.
> This situation is called the break even cost. For
> one to make profit the installation costs needs to be
> lower.
Nick mentioned that added cost for the installation can be
compensated for by using the waste heat from the panels
or other system by providing domestic heating.
Precious few PV systems that provide this heat, most
waste it, some have water cooling in the design.
Remember that the best PV systems are about 15% efficient.
The 85% captured by the panels are just lost. This is
a lot of heat that could be used.
In our solar powered Rankine engine design this waste
heat is easily captured. Even at 10% efficiency the
90% waste heat is of a high quality as it can be of
a temperature suitable for hydronic heating systems.
PV panels can also reject heat at a fairly high
temperature if designed for it. PV looses some
efficiency when run hot but the domestic heat is
useful.
The averted fuel costs for domestic heating can pay
for the added cost of the system in a much shorter
time than if the heat wasn't recovered.
The total integrated home heating and power generating
system is, in my opinion, the wave of the future.
> ---------
> This was a description of the current state of things.
> No wonder there are few people who are currently using
> PV or other sources of energy to produce power.
> There is currently only a small percentage of the
> population in the US that don't have access to the
> power grid. They, category 1, are the most receptive to
> the current high cost of renewable energy equipment.
> These people will buy the equipment no mater how much
> the cost.
> Category 2, the Environmentalists and emergency prepare,
> are willing to pay extra but the lower the cost the more
> equipment they will buy.
> Category 3 will only buy equipment when its competitive
> with the grid. Once the equipment is low enough in cost
> these will purchase equipment in enormous quantities.
> Essentially categories 1 and 2 disappear when the costs
> are low enough.
> Only you can decide which category you are in. I
> suspect that many are just waiting until the promised
> cost reductions are available.
> Checkout some of the concepts that I have been talking
> about. How I and a David Wells and others plan on
> breaking that $1.00us/Watt barrier. See:
> http://www.redrok.com/main.htm
> http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#concepts
> http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#up970331
> http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#up980301
> http://www.redrok.com/main.htm#engine
> We are trying very hare to make a cost effective solar
> powered heat engine to make electricity. Our goal is
> the $1.00/Watt price barrier. I am confident that if
> we don't do it others will.
Have fun! Duane C. Johnson
--
George Ghio
Duane C. Johnson
George Ghio <go...@netscape.net> wrote:
> Duane your right for the most part but people have to
> start taking solar serious if we want to keep living
> on earth as a race in the future.
I agree. And the most strait forward way to do this is
the incentive of low cost solar power that the average
Joe home owner setup for his house.
> It may be fun to play with solar but the people who
> use it are the driving force behind development.
Yes. These have been the backbone of the solar industry
all along. I call them category 1.
> I dont really expect people who are in existing houses
> to change over to solar - the cost is not user friendly
Why not if the costs were low enough.
PV is not the only way to go.
I feel a solar powered Rankine engine driving a generator
can drastically lower the cost of producing electricity.
> - but when some one builds a new house adding solar for
> at least the lighting would be very cost effective and
> should be considered.
I agree. The small lighting heliostats can be made fairly
low in cost, at least for daytime lighting. Way lower than
PV. Of course night time lighting still needs to be done
with electricity and possibly stored in batteries.
Solar lighting is something to behold.
From the solar tube types to the full active heliostats.
The light is brilliant and beautiful when beamed into a
north wall. Crystal white full spectrum light.
See:
http://www.redrok.com/concept.htm#lighting
http://www.redrok.com/up970331.htm#lighting
Solartech's Coelostat is a nice concept. See:
http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9306402/1index.html
3M's Heliobus is interesting. See:
http://www.mmm.com/intl/CH/english/archive/story4_980326.html
> George
Have fun! Duane
Tom Simpson
may have what you need.
sy...@SYSLINK.MCS.COM wrote in message
<990920194...@SYSLINK.MCS.COM>...
>
>
> >
> > This system was installed for a customer and is working fine. With
> > good maint. the batteries cold last for up to 20 years.
> >
> >
> >
> > figures in email are only a quick job sorry if not spot on.
> >
> > George
> >
>