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Jorn Barger

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Dec 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/23/97
to

.
After talking a lot about Frontier and Scripting News
(www.scripting.com), I decided to start my own webpage logging the best
stuff I find as I surf, on a daily basis:

<URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblog.html>

This will cover any and everything that interests me, from net culture
to politics to literature etc.


j


thew...@cybernothing.org

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Dec 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/23/97
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Jorn Barger (jo...@mcs.com) wrote:
: .

Will every side of an issue be given equal voice, with anger-at-the-power-
elite being predominant?

--
TheWitch (just wonderin')

"There's a little bit of grandma in us all."

- Boojie

Jorn Barger

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Dec 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/23/97
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TheW...@Endor.com <thew...@cybernothing.org> wrote:
> Will every side of an issue be given equal voice, with anger-at-the-power-
> elite being predominant? ^^^^^
you misspelled 'fair'

It reflects both my particular angle on things, and my well-developed
fair-mindedness...


j

Karl 'Skatman' Chief Monster Truck Neutopian Sanitation Engineer

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:19:53 -0500, jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) posted:

| .
| After talking a lot about Frontier and Scripting News
| (www.scripting.com), I decided to start my own webpage logging the best
| stuff I find as I surf, on a daily basis:
|
| <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblog.html>
|
| This will cover any and everything that interests me, from net culture
| to politics to literature etc.

Does the yellow background you've chosen betray the quality of your
editorial style?

Just curious...


Jorn Barger

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
to

Karl 'Skatman' Chief Monster Truck Neutopian Sanitation Engineer
<ka...@skat.usc.edu> wrote:
> | <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblog.html>

>
> Does the yellow background you've chosen betray the quality of your
> editorial style?

Decent! You went looking for something to criticise, and all you could
find was... the background color!

Su-perb...

j

YoYo

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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Apparently Jorn is not familiar with the phrase "yellow journalism".


--
----YoYo------...@tezcat.com------------and stuff------

"It's not just me, and it's not just you,
this is all around the world."
-Paul Simon

Douglas Lathrop

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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YoYo <yo...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:

: Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:
: >Karl 'Skatman' Chief Monster Truck Neutopian Sanitation Engineer
: ><ka...@skat.usc.edu> wrote:
: >> | <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblog.html>
: >>
: >> Does the yellow background you've chosen betray the quality of your
: >> editorial style?
: >
: >Decent! You went looking for something to criticise, and all you could
: >find was... the background color!

: Apparently Jorn is not familiar with the phrase "yellow journalism".

I'm actually starting to like Jorn. He's just as irony-impaired as
Schwann, but not nearly as boring to read.

And Jorn? Yellow backgrounds give the reader a headache.


--
D O U G L A S P. L A T H R O P
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Two words: Bon Vivant! <<>> NeuFreud of the USENET <<<<<<<<<<<
Visit Stately PAPER CUT MANOR! http://www.primenet.com/~lathrop/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|||||||||||||| "it's all too meta, baby." -- Leslie Harpold ||||||||||||||

YoYo

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> wrote:

>I'm actually starting to like Jorn. He's just as irony-impaired as
>Schwann, but not nearly as boring to read.

I just like saying "Jorn". Jorn, Jorn, Jorn. Yorn. Your'n. Not mine,
your'n.

FIDO

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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YoYo writes:

I just like saying "Jorn". Jorn, Jorn, Jorn. Yorn.
Your'n. Not mine, your'n.

That's funny; I like saying YoYo, Yoyo, JoJo, HoHo.

FIDO, net DODO

Jorn Barger

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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YoYo <yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
> I just like saying "Jorn". Jorn, Jorn, J...

You've discovered the secret rhyme for 'orange'...!

Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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On 29 Dec 1997 09:19:00 -0700, Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com>
wrote:

>I'm actually starting to like Jorn. He's just as irony-impaired as
>Schwann, but not nearly as boring to read.

I remember Jorn from way back in the ancient days when he used to
inhabit rec.music.gaffa. When I came back to it after a year's
absence, I asked whatever had happened to him, but no-one there was
prepared to tell me, instead preferring to metaphorically curse his
name and spit on the ground. I'd love to hear that story sometime.

(It's about Kate Bush, in case you're interested.)

Anthony "Slug of Doom" Lawless, GCP - keyboardist, composer,
wordsmith, amateur literary critic, micronationalist, editor
and pagan, among other things. http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~norway
"His name is Mr. Rainbow, and tonight he's your host" - Dagmar Krause

H.

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

Nope. It's weak. Doesn't count.
--
H.
** for email, remove CHICAGO and .INVALID from the
address. Don't forget the dot before INVALID

Jorn Barger

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Dec 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/29/97
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[followups narrowed to a.s.n]

>[...] When I came back to it after a year's


> absence, I asked whatever had happened to him, but no-one there was

> prepared to tell me [...]

Although the artist in question is deeply mystical, I violated a taboo
by suggesting that 'vibes' might be imprinted on magnetic media as
low-frequency electromagnetic waveforms. A consequence of this would be
that tapes (and maybe LPs) could pick up an echo of the listener's
entrained emotions over repeated listenings, while CDs would be immune
to this.

Curiously, both the artist in question *and* Tori Amos went on record in
the following year as considering that magnetic media are more subtle at
carrying emotion than digital technology.

The subsequent lynching is in the relevant archives for March 1993 et
seq.


j

H.

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Dec 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/30/97
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Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

> [followups narrowed to a.s.n]
> I changed the followups, too, to make sure to include r.a.b.

> >[...] When I came back to it after a year's
> > absence, I asked whatever had happened to him, but no-one there was
> > prepared to tell me [...]
>
> Although the artist in question is deeply mystical, I violated a taboo
> by suggesting that 'vibes' might be imprinted on magnetic media as
> low-frequency electromagnetic waveforms. A consequence of this would be
> that tapes (and maybe LPs) could pick up an echo of the listener's
> entrained emotions over repeated listenings, while CDs would be immune
> to this.

It seems to me that the above rather conclusively shows that (1) Jorn
is not "irony-impaired," and (2) he has a pretty interesting turn of
mind. This latter can be verified by taking a look at his web pages =
The Robot Wisdom pages : www.mcs.net/~jorn/ = . I was taken with his
proposals for how newsgroups ought to deal with flames, etc.

The ObBook has to be Ulysses, doesn't it?

Chris H Kostanick

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Dec 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/31/97
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jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>[followups narrowed to a.s.n]

>>[...] When I came back to it after a year's
>> absence, I asked whatever had happened to him, but no-one there was
>> prepared to tell me [...]

>Although the artist in question is deeply mystical, I violated a taboo
>by suggesting that 'vibes' might be imprinted on magnetic media as
>low-frequency electromagnetic waveforms. A consequence of this would be
>that tapes (and maybe LPs) could pick up an echo of the listener's
>entrained emotions over repeated listenings, while CDs would be immune
>to this.

Umm Jorn, CD's reproduce low frequencies _better_ than analog media.
It is the very high end that is lacking in digital recording. (Look
up Nyquist criteria to see why.)

>Curiously, both the artist in question *and* Tori Amos went on record in
>the following year as considering that magnetic media are more subtle at
>carrying emotion than digital technology.

They equalize differently. That is why the old tube amps sound "warmer"
than more modern transistor amps.

Unless you have spent way too much money on your sound
system, digital will reproduce the original music much better.
(Very top end analog is better than top end digital, but by
that point your sound system cost more than my truck.)

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Use 78's and steel needles

YoYo

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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Chris H Kostanick <chr...@indra.com> wrote:

>Umm Jorn, CD's reproduce low frequencies _better_ than analog media.
>It is the very high end that is lacking in digital recording. (Look
>up Nyquist criteria to see why.)

>They equalize differently. That is why the old tube amps sound "warmer"


>than more modern transistor amps.
>
>Unless you have spent way too much money on your sound
>system, digital will reproduce the original music much better.
>(Very top end analog is better than top end digital, but by
>that point your sound system cost more than my truck.)

Thanks for posting this, Chris. It never ceases to amaze me the way people
will talk out their ass about technology without understanding it.

Having done a little recording myself, I'd say that I'd rather use
high-end analog for the primary recording, but DAT for mastering, and I'd
certainly rather listen to CDs than tapes or records, since I'm not made
of money.

(BTW, I'm listening to Tony Bennett on CD right now, and not noticing any
lack of warmth or emotion.)


--
----YoYo------...@tezcat.com------------and stuff------

"Everything is better now."
-Ben Hogan

Jorn Barger

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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YoYo <yo...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:
> [...] It never ceases to amaze me the way people

> will talk out their ass about technology without understanding it.

Look in the mirror, Yoyo. Chris decided he knew what I was saying
without bothering to read my words, and now you've jumped right in
line...


"Irony-impaired" ...heh.


Discord

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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In article <1d26gfl.1mj...@jorn.pr.mcs.net>,

Hmm. Much as I hate to admit this, I think Jorn's right. I don't think
that a CD qualifies as 'magnetic media'.

YoYo

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

>Look in the mirror, Yoyo. Chris decided he knew what I was saying
>without bothering to read my words, and now you've jumped right in
>line...

Tell you what, Jorn - you tell me what these "vibes" are, in physical
terms, and explain how you think analog media capture them. If you can get
a physicist to study the phenomenon, I'll take it seriously. Until then,
you're just blowing smoke.

Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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On 31 Dec 1997 23:44:30 -0700, chr...@indra.com (Chris H Kostanick)
wrote:

>jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>>lthough the artist in question is deeply mystical, I violated a taboo
>>by suggesting that 'vibes' might be imprinted on magnetic media as
>>low-frequency electromagnetic waveforms. A consequence of this would be
>>that tapes (and maybe LPs) could pick up an echo of the listener's
>>entrained emotions over repeated listenings, while CDs would be immune
>>to this.
>

>Umm Jorn, CD's reproduce low frequencies _better_ than analog media.
>It is the very high end that is lacking in digital recording. (Look
>up Nyquist criteria to see why.)

After reading through the said thread in the rec.music.gaffa archives,
I really believe that Jorn means something different by "low
frequency" than what you do. Mind you, the enthusiastic debunkers
piling in and starting the biggest flamewar ever seen on the seven
continents make it difficult to tell what *anyone* meant in that
thread.

>(Very top end analog is better than top end digital, but by
>that point your sound system cost more than my truck.)

Vinyl kicks ass.


Anthony "Slug of Doom" Lawless, GCP - keyboardist, composer,
wordsmith, amateur literary critic, micronationalist, editor
and pagan, among other things. http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~norway

"You say go slow, I fall behind. The second hand unwinds..."

Jorn Barger

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Jan 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/1/98
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YoYo <yo...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:

> Tell you what, Jorn - you tell me what these "vibes" are, in physical
> terms, and explain how you think analog media capture them. If you can get
> a physicist to study the phenomenon, I'll take it seriously. Until then,
> you're just blowing smoke.

<URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/paranorm.html>


YoYo

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

Very imaginative. I'm sure a real physicist would have no trouble blowing
holes in it.

It's a classic symptom of folks whose urealistic theories are very dear
to them to blame the lack of widespread acceptance of these theories on
"intimidation" or "social control" or something.

When you can *prove it*, it's real. Until then, it's just speculation.

YoYo

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward <nor...@getlostspamboysIHUG.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Vinyl kicks ass.

Until it gets scratched, warped or full of dust, at which point it becomes
a frisbee.

I know it's contrary to the retro chic of these late '90's, but for
all sorts of practical reasons, I'll take CDs any day.

Jorn Barger

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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YoYo <yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
> ><URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/paranorm.html>
>
> Very imaginative. I'm sure a real physicist would have no trouble blowing
> holes in it.

Weren't you just complaining about people who *don't* know making
judgments as if they do? So why do you persist in doing the same thing?

> It's a classic symptom of folks whose urealistic theories are very dear
> to them to blame the lack of widespread acceptance of these theories on
> "intimidation" or "social control" or something.

Show me a quote. I entered into this whole topic with great reluctance.

> When you can *prove it*, it's real. Until then, it's just speculation.

Science begins with speculation. And people who deny realities that
haven't yet been 'proven' are dangerously sick puppies...


j

YoYo

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

>Science begins with speculation.

...and follows through with experimentation and verification.

>And people who deny realities that
>haven't yet been 'proven' are dangerously sick puppies...

And people who claim the existance of realities that haven't been proven
are either in the religion buisness, or insane.

You claim the existance of these "vibes" merely because you want them to
exist. You claim they can be captured on tape merely because you *think*
you percieve them in music. You claim they are better reproduced by analog
media merely because you percieve such media as being "warmer".

But, in the intrest of science, here is an experiement I propose to test
your hypothesis:

1) Get a tape recorder. (Whatever kind is best suited for your purposes).

2) Have an associate go into a completely quiet room and make 3 tapes:

2a) The first tape will be of your associate emoting
positively at the tape recorder (but without making
any actual sound).

2b) The second tape will be your associate emoting
negatively at the tape recorder.

2c) The third tape will be the control tape - your
associate will turn on the tape recorder and
leave the room (as quietly as possible)

I wish to stress that none of the tapes should have any actual sound on
them other than the background hiss of the tape.

Your associate should then label the tapes "A", "B", and "C" (though not
necessarily correlating with 2a, 2b, and 2c, above). Your associate
*should not* reveal to you which tapes are which.

3) Get a number of subjects - enough for a statistically significant
sample - and have them listen to the tapes. Have them note whether they
think each tape is "positive", "negative", or "neutral".

4) Score each subject's response for accuracy.

5) Evaluate the results statistically.

6) Make the results public, either here, or preferably in a peer-reviewed
science journal (I belive there's a journal of psycho-acoustics).

I, for one, will put some major quatloos on a (statistically
significant) negative or inconclusive (statistically insignificant)
result.

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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yo...@xochi.tezcat.com (YoYo) writes:

>Having done a little recording myself, I'd say that I'd rather use
>high-end analog for the primary recording, but DAT for mastering, and I'd
>certainly rather listen to CDs than tapes or records, since I'm not made
>of money.

A friend at work gets the fetish stereo magazines. I once looked at their
recommendations. To get a "D" class system, was going to be over $3000. To
get an unlimited "A" class system would run over $50,000. Given how fucked my
ears are, the $100 CD boom box does just fine.

>(BTW, I'm listening to Tony Bennett on CD right now, and not noticing any
>lack of warmth or emotion.)

What I like most about CD is the dynamic range. You can have very quiet
passages (like the early part of the William Tell Overature) and then
very loud parts (like the hunt section) without touching the volume
knob.

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - All I Want For Christmas Is A New Set Of Ears

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>YoYo <yo...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:
>> [...] It never ceases to amaze me the way people
>> will talk out their ass about technology without understanding it.

>Look in the mirror, Yoyo. Chris decided he knew what I was saying


>without bothering to read my words, and now you've jumped right in
>line...

I have this theory. You and I talk two different languages that
use the same symbols. So when you talk about low frequency electro-
magnetic waves, I think you are talking about sound recording and
you think you are talking about sports. This would explain
everything.

What were you talking about?

Do you know what a transfer function is?

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Use BandPass filters

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
to

nor...@ihug.co.nz (Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward) writes:

>On 31 Dec 1997 23:44:30 -0700, chr...@indra.com (Chris H Kostanick)
>wrote:

>>jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>>>lthough the artist in question is deeply mystical, I violated a taboo
>>>by suggesting that 'vibes' might be imprinted on magnetic media as
>>>low-frequency electromagnetic waveforms. A consequence of this would be
>>>that tapes (and maybe LPs) could pick up an echo of the listener's
>>>entrained emotions over repeated listenings, while CDs would be immune
>>>to this.
>>
>>Umm Jorn, CD's reproduce low frequencies _better_ than analog media.
>>It is the very high end that is lacking in digital recording. (Look
>>up Nyquist criteria to see why.)

>After reading through the said thread in the rec.music.gaffa archives,
>I really believe that Jorn means something different by "low
>frequency" than what you do. Mind you, the enthusiastic debunkers
>piling in and starting the biggest flamewar ever seen on the seven
>continents make it difficult to tell what *anyone* meant in that
>thread.

To me "low frequency" means 50Hz on down. Vinyl recording drops
off very sharply at about 10Hz or so. Magnetic tape may go down
a bit lower, but not the usual 1 and something inch a second cassette
tape. How low does he mean by "low frequency"?

>Vinyl kicks ass.

Yeah, but playing it damages it.

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Like Infrasonics

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
to

ti...@huitzilo.tezcat.com (Discord) writes:

>In article <1d26gfl.1mj...@jorn.pr.mcs.net>,
>Jorn Barger <jo...@mcs.com> wrote:

>>YoYo <yo...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:
>>> [...] It never ceases to amaze me the way people
>>> will talk out their ass about technology without understanding it.
>>
>>Look in the mirror, Yoyo. Chris decided he knew what I was saying
>>without bothering to read my words, and now you've jumped right in
>>line...

>Hmm. Much as I hate to admit this, I think Jorn's right. I don't think


>that a CD qualifies as 'magnetic media'.

Ok, point to Jorn on a technical foul. But standard cassette tape (the
only electro-magnetic media under consideration) has much worse fidelity
than either vinyl records or CDs. If I were looking for very subtle
intonations cassette is the last place I'd look. Direct to disk analog is
the best, but each time you play vinyl you destroy it a little.

Tape has an inherient noise in it. That's why you hear that hiss when
you turn the volume up on blank or erased tape. This is intrinsic to
tape technology.

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Use Steel Wire Recorders

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
to

Yoyo wrote a nice experiment to test Jorn's idea:

>I, for one, will put some major quatloos on a (statistically
>significant) negative or inconclusive (statistically insignificant)
>result.

I'd bet that way too. It would be better if the person giving Jorn the
tapes was not the person who had recorded them. That would help keep
non-verbal info transfer to a minimum. In social science experimentation,
the double blind is a necessity.

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Send Negative Emotions Our Way

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
to

[I tried to post this once, but the follow failed.]

jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>Science begins with speculation. And people who deny realities that


>haven't yet been 'proven' are dangerously sick puppies...

Naw, we call 'em skeptics. And I are one. Do you make offerings
to the Invisible Pink Unicorn? She is sitting on the floor behind
you right now and is getting pissed that you do not worship her.

What you can't see her? Of course, she's invisible!

Chris Kostanick
Jet Car Neutopian - The Invisible Pink Unicorn Defends Us


Jorn Barger

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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Chris H Kostanick <chr...@indra.com> wrote:
> Do you know what a transfer function is?

This reminds me of an early Woody Allen movie, where he's having an
absurd ego-battle with another guy, and says, "Well, can you do THIS?"
as he twirls in a silly pirouette, with his finger on his head.

(If your jargon describes something relevant, I'm sure I'll understand
the principles, expressed in ordinary language.)

> What were you talking about?

What you misunderstood was that I wasn't saying CDs can't record
low-frequency signals in the studio, but that they can't *pick them up*
during playback, *from the listener*.

Because you have trouble with grey areas, I guess I need to frame this
as a scifi alternate-world scenario: suppose there were a planet where
the intelligent organisms could sense a low-frequency 'vibe' from each
other, that communicated their basic emotional state?

And suppose when they listened to music, their vibes all entrained into
synchrony? And that they differentiated 'soft' media (like magnetic
tape or vinyl LPs) that was reshaped during the process of playing it,
and so gradually decayed as it picked up the vibes of its listeners,
from 'hard' media (like digital tapes or CDs) that never decayed, but
also never acquired any personalisation?

And suppose, too, that this society was divided into a group that
respected vibes, and another that denied they were real or possible?

And suppose the deniers were motivated by a sense of personal discomfort
with their own deep motives, feelings, and fantasies, so that accepting
the idea of vibes made them feel emotionally threatened...?


j

Douglas Lathrop

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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YoYo <yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:

: Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward <nor...@getlostspamboysIHUG.CO.NZ> wrote:

: >Vinyl kicks ass.

: Until it gets scratched, warped or full of dust, at which point it becomes
: a frisbee.

: I know it's contrary to the retro chic of these late '90's, but for
: all sorts of practical reasons, I'll take CDs any day.

M3 T00!!!11!!1!

A lot of my music collection is still on vinyl, and I don't intend to
replace it anytime soon (either because the stuff isn't available on CD,
or because I can't afford it). Nevertheless I greatly prefer the ease of
use and low maintenance needs of CDs, in addition to the higher sound
quality. I don't buy this "tape conveys emotion better" hooey (much as I
love Kate Bush's music, I also think she's, well, kind of a space cadet),
and as for vinyl, any "warmth" it contains is eventually replaced by Rice
Krispy sounds.

I have a question about Tori Amos, btw. That question is: Why do we need
another Kate Bush when the first one was done to perfection?


--
D O U G L A S P. L A T H R O P
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Two words: Bon Vivant! <<>> NeuFreud of the USENET <<<<<<<<<<<
Visit Stately PAPER CUT MANOR! http://www.primenet.com/~lathrop/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|||||||||||||| "it's all too meta, baby." -- Leslie Harpold ||||||||||||||

Jesse Garon

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
to

Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> writes:
>I have a question about Tori Amos, btw. That question is: Why do we need
>another Kate Bush when the first one was done to perfection?

This one's easy. Two words for you, pal: red hair.

"Jesse Garon": the God damnedest mass of tact known to the human race
---------------------------------------------------------------------
gri...@primenet.com http://www.primenet.com/~grifter/jesse.html


Discord

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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In article <68io2f$q...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>,
YoYo <yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
[on the topic of vinyl]

>Until it gets scratched, warped or full of dust, at which point it becomes
>a frisbee.
>
>I know it's contrary to the retro chic of these late '90's, but for
>all sorts of practical reasons, I'll take CDs any day.

Some of us have large collections of vinyl that predominately predate
CDs, or at least predate our owning CD players, though. :)

At this point, I buy vinyl under one of three circumstances:

a) I can't find it on CD
b) The cover is really cool, and I don't want the tiny version.
c) Someone offers me vinyl of stuff I've wanted a while for
an inexpensive price (it's where I got at least 30 albums of
the couple hundred or so I own).

If you're careful with it, it lasts just fine. I like CDs better, yes,
but I don't object to vinyl. And I prefer it to tape. Tapes break and
wear out more easily. I do have a lot of tapes, too, but a great many of
them are things recorded for me, or mixes I've recorded, or things from
years and years and years ago when there weren't CDs, most of which are
not in very good shape.

######## ti...@tezcat.com ########### http://www.tezcat.com/~tina ##########
Mulder: If there's iced tea in that bag, could be love.
Scully: Must be fate, Mulder -- root beer.

Discord

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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In article <68jmlt$m...@nntp02.primenet.com>,

Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> wrote:
>I have a question about Tori Amos, btw. That question is: Why do we need
>another Kate Bush when the first one was done to perfection?

Um. I didn't like Kate Bush, but I like Tori Amos?

*shrug* YMM(and obviously does)V. I don't really think of Tori Amos as
Kate Bush-like, and quite likely neither do a lot of other people. And
there's always room for more musicians, IMO, at least good ones.

-=-=- ti...@tezcat.com -=-=-=- http://www.tezcat.com/~tina -=-=-=-
"Now that's a credential: rewriting Einstein." -- Mulder to Scully

Chris H Kostanick

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Jan 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/2/98
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jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) writes:

>Chris H Kostanick <chr...@indra.com> wrote:
>> Do you know what a transfer function is?

>This reminds me of an early Woody Allen movie, where he's having an
>absurd ego-battle with another guy, and says, "Well, can you do THIS?"
>as he twirls in a silly pirouette, with his finger on his head.

Transfer function is an ordinary part of electrical engineering
language. It describes mathematically how the output relates to the
input. A transfer function of unity would have the exact same output
as the input. This would be the ideal recording, in it that it would
sound exactly like the original. This is fairly easy to do in the
midrange, but impossible at low and high frequencies.

If you are really interested in how sound is recorded I suggest you
consult a basic EE text. It will clear away a lot of your confusion.

>(If your jargon describes something relevant, I'm sure I'll understand
>the principles, expressed in ordinary language.)

>> What were you talking about?

>What you misunderstood was that I wasn't saying CDs can't record
>low-frequency signals in the studio, but that they can't *pick them up*
>during playback, *from the listener*.

I find this idea very improbable. When you are playing a tape back, the
recording head is just a loop of wire that "sees" the change in
magnetic flux as a voltage. If the tape is at a temperature below the
curie point there should be _no_ change to tape magnetisation at all except for
mechanical wear.

>Because you have trouble with grey areas, I guess I need to frame this
>as a scifi alternate-world scenario: suppose there were a planet where
>the intelligent organisms could sense a low-frequency 'vibe' from each
>other, that communicated their basic emotional state?

>And suppose when they listened to music, their vibes all entrained into
>synchrony? And that they differentiated 'soft' media (like magnetic
>tape or vinyl LPs) that was reshaped during the process of playing it,
>and so gradually decayed as it picked up the vibes of its listeners,
>from 'hard' media (like digital tapes or CDs) that never decayed, but
>also never acquired any personalisation?

If this idea were a fish, I would not buy it.

>And suppose, too, that this society was divided into a group that
>respected vibes, and another that denied they were real or possible?

>And suppose the deniers were motivated by a sense of personal discomfort
>with their own deep motives, feelings, and fantasies, so that accepting
>the idea of vibes made them feel emotionally threatened...?

Why do you assume that people that disagree with you are emotionally
unhealthy? Are you projecting?

Chris Kostanic
Jet Car Neutopian - Grays Have No Aura

Schwann

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Jan 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/3/98
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jo...@mcs.com (Jorn Barger) wrote:

>And suppose the deniers were motivated by a sense of personal discomfort
>with their own deep motives, feelings, and fantasies, so that accepting
>the idea of vibes made them feel emotionally threatened...?
>


this is a pretty good description of the thought processes which seem
to've invaded this newsgroup. welcome to the combat zone.

happy new year all,

schwann-cyber-shaman


G. Sotir

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Jan 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/3/98
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Hi everyone,

Schwann wrote:

Cheers! I agree.
Happy New Year
Slouching towards Neutopia,
Through the last bits of Capricorns rubble
and the abandoned cities
and highways jackhammered away.
Be the life of the party,
full of laughter and spontaneous love.
Make music freely this year
With flute drum and cymbal.
And remember the darkness that will
retreat when the foundations of the new are laid,
remember the different chirps of the frogs
as they dissapear around the globe.
Something to tell our children about,
so they can tell their grandchildren.


I think it may be time to truly and practically envision and create
alternative self sustainable communities.
I hope this NG gets back on track towards that exceptional goaL.

(and obviously the flames of others will not affect me)

Save a wetland near you this year!
Greg in Venice Beach

YoYo

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Jan 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/3/98
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Discord <ti...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:

>YoYo <yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
>[on the topic of vinyl]
>>Until it gets scratched, warped or full of dust, at which point it becomes
>>a frisbee.
>>
>>I know it's contrary to the retro chic of these late '90's, but for
>>all sorts of practical reasons, I'll take CDs any day.
>
>Some of us have large collections of vinyl that predominately predate
>CDs, or at least predate our owning CD players, though. :)

Oh, likewise. I've got plenty of vinyl that predates my getting a CD
player.

Jorn Barger

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Jan 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/3/98
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> [...[ a test of taking one of Jorn's favourite tapes that he'd
> listened to for ages and presumably built up quite a "charge" on,
> producing an absolutely identical copy of the same album that he'd
> never listened to, playing them both and seeing if he could
> distinguish which was his.

You know (and I think this will be my last thought on this topic), after
the original experience of accumulated vibes, the very next time I
listened to that tape there was no effect at all, so I'd say whatever it
is is pretty evanescent...


Schwann

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Jan 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/4/98
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"G. Sotir" <cu...@nospam.loop.com> wrote:

>Hi everyone,


>Cheers! I agree.
>Happy New Year
>Slouching towards Neutopia,
>Through the last bits of Capricorns rubble
>and the abandoned cities
>and highways jackhammered away.
>Be the life of the party,
>full of laughter and spontaneous love.
>Make music freely this year
>With flute drum and cymbal.
>And remember the darkness that will
>retreat when the foundations of the new are laid,
>remember the different chirps of the frogs
>as they dissapear around the globe.
>Something to tell our children about,
>so they can tell their grandchildren.

>Greg in Venice Beach
>

nice lines. Bishop Desmond Tutu said; "May the best of '97 be the
worst of '98"...i wish you this too....

PLUR

schwann-cyber-shaman


Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward

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Jan 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/4/98
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On 2 Jan 1998 14:37:01 -0700, Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com>
wrote:

>A lot of my music collection is still on vinyl, and I don't intend to
>replace it anytime soon (either because the stuff isn't available on CD,
>or because I can't afford it).

Well, same here. Most of the stuff I like I can get for something like
one-fifth the price it would cost to get a brand new CD. Thank Goddess
for opportunity shopping.

> Nevertheless I greatly prefer the ease ofuse and low maintenance needs of CDs, in addition to the higher sound
>quality.

I suppose I'm just an analog snob, in recording as well as keyboard
technology. It just feels more... *direct*. Yeah, mystic hooey.

> I don't buy this "tape conveys emotion better" hooey

I think Jorn's idea was that analog media also *inscribe* the emotions
of the listener on them. Yeah, it's an... *interesting* idea.

> (much as I
>love Kate Bush's music, I also think she's, well, kind of a space cadet),

Well, you say that as if it's a bad thing.

>I have a question about Tori Amos, btw. That question is: Why do we need
>another Kate Bush when the first one was done to perfection?

Oh, yeah. Post that to rec.music.tori-amos and see what happens. :-)
(That particular flamewar is endemic on any vaguely "progressive"
music newsgroup.) Personally, I think _Boys for Pele_ is far and away
Tori's best, on the grounds that it hardly sounds anything like Kate
for a change.

Ever heard of Happy Rhodes?

Anthony Lawless, Barry Morrison, Carl Beange, Ana-Therese Ward

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Jan 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/4/98
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On 2 Jan 1998 09:53:21 -0600, yo...@huitzilo.tezcat.com (YoYo) wrote:

>1) Get a tape recorder. (Whatever kind is best suited for your purposes).
>
>2) Have an associate go into a completely quiet room and make 3 tapes:
>
> 2a) The first tape will be of your associate emoting
> positively at the tape recorder (but without making
> any actual sound).
>
> 2b) The second tape will be your associate emoting
> negatively at the tape recorder.
>
> 2c) The third tape will be the control tape - your
> associate will turn on the tape recorder and
> leave the room (as quietly as possible)

The problem I see on this is, how can one "emote" as a matter of will?
I think the idea behind Jorn's hypothesis is that it should be
*sincere* emotion, and I'm not sure how you can produce that under
laboratory conditions. In the original r.m.g. thread, someone
suggested a test of taking one of Jorn's favourite tapes that he'd


listened to for ages and presumably built up quite a "charge" on,
producing an absolutely identical copy of the same album that he'd
never listened to, playing them both and seeing if he could
distinguish which was his.

Anthony "Slug of Doom" Lawless, GCP - keyboardist, composer,

Discord

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Jan 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM1/4/98
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Anthony Lawless wrote:
>The problem I see on this is, how can one "emote" as a matter of will?

By using a combination of association and dissociation.

The thing that makes some actors so good -- and some performers in general
so good -- is the ability to fully throw themselves into what they're doing.
I think that it qualifies as 'sincere' because if you've dissociated
yourself from your /self/ enough, and put yourself into your /role/, you
will be feeling the appropriate emotions as well as evidencing them.

Trust me. This comes from long years of roleplaying.

I am, however, very skeptical it shows up on tape. In my experience, the
types of performers who are able to infect a roomful of people with the
emotions of the songs they play, the ones who seem to be able to set
moods, rarely come across as well on tape (audio /or/ video). I have
absolutely no idea as to why this is. Maybe there's something about body
language and tonal quality that are both lost even with high-quality
recordings. Maybe it's something on the part of the listener. I imagine
if I could find a way to compensate for it, I could become fairly
wealthy. Although I think I might be more inclined to /not/ become
fairly wealthy via that method, but that's me.

-=- ti...@tezcat.com -=- http://www.tezcat.com/~tina/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"And maybe it's easier to withdraw from life, with all of its misery
and wretched lies, away from harm." -- Dead can Dance

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