we were called willy nillys, chicken littles, but any fool could see this coming, indoctrinated chanters and apologists just seem not to be able to grasp reality:Crisis wipes $1 trillion from financial stocks, lots of asset write down that is really bad debt
Vid...@tcq.net
this coming, indoctrinated chanters and apologists just seem not to be
able to grasp reality:Crisis wipes $1 trillion from financial stocks,
lots of asset write down that is really bad debt
Crisis wipes $1 trillion from financial stocks
Monday July 7, 4:57 pm
ET
By Joe Bel Bruno, AP Business Writer
Concerns about credit, housing wipe $1.3 trillion from S&P 500's
financial companies in 2008
NEW YORK -- U.S. financial companies have lost more than $1 trillion
in value this year, and yet another decline on Monday shows concerns
aren't going away soon.
Banks and brokerages began the week lower on the same fears that have
been proven toxic since last summer in the ongoing credit crisis. The
financial sector was hit with a confluence of troubles on Monday:
cautious remarks from a Federal Reserve official and new capital
concerns at Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
ADVERTISEMENT
The drop in names like Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley and Merrill
Lynch caused the financial section of the Standard & Poor's 500 index
to lose almost $150 billion in value on Monday, according to the
rating agency. That means S&P 500's 85 financial components have lost
some $1.3 trillion since the sector reached a high last October.
Even more startling is that shares of 35 of the companies, which
include insurers, have lost more than half their value so far this
year. The financial sector used to be the index's main driver, and
many economists believe that the broader market will rise or fall on
their health.
"Some would argue that perhaps the sell-off in financials is overdone,
but at the same time there is just much uncertainty out there about
write-offs, loan losses, and how bad the housing market is," said Jim
Herrick, a director of equity trading at Baird & Co. "For a period of
time the pain was in the big money center banks, but now it's
spreading."
Fannie and Freddie fell sharply after Lehman Brothers analyst Bruce
Harting said the two government-backed lenders might need to raise
billions of dollars in new capital. Both are facing a proposed change
to accounting standards that would require financial services firms
move bonds backed by pools of loans, also known as securitizations,
off their balance sheets.
If this rule is passed, it would end Freddie and Fannie's primary
source of generating new revenue. Harting said Fannie Mae would need
to raise $46 billion in cash to meet capital requirements, while
Freddie Mac would need $29 billion.
The broader financial sector was hurt after San Francisco Federal
Reserve President Janet Yellen said problems in the housing market and
banking system could get even worse before the economy recovers.
Global banks and brokerages have lost nearly $300 billion from
investments in mortgage-backed securities and other risky investments
since the credit crisis began one year ago.
And there are fresh signs that Wall Street's biggest investment houses
are having trouble navigating through volatile markets.
Goldman Sachs Group Inc., the world's biggest investment bank,
disclosed in a regulatory filing that it lost at least $100 million on
nine trading days during the second quarter. Goldman reported that
total trading revenue in the second quarter fell 17 percent to $4.87
billion, according to the filing.
The firm, known for aggressive trading tactics that can cause big
swings from week to week, still far surpassed many of its rivals on
the Street. That has put more focus on Merrill Lynch, which will
report its quarterly results next Thursday.
John Thain, Merrill's CEO, is said to be examining the sale of stakes
the brokerage has in asset manager BlackRock Inc. and in Bloomberg LP.
Money raised would be used to offset big write-downs expected at the
brokerage.
A spokeswoman declined to comment about numerous media reports.
However, Thain in the past has said he is open to selling the stakes
if Merrill can fetch a good price.
Howard Silverblatt, S&P's senior index analyst, said financial stocks
will likely continue to be hurt until some signs develop that show
banks and brokerages have a better grip on credit problems. Merrill's
earnings next week could provide that.
"There's still lots of uncertainty out there," he said. "And, the
financials need to turn around if the whole index wants to recover."
AP Business Writer Stephen Bernard contributed to this story from New
Yor
FrediFizzx
the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we still
got a couple trillion to go for them.
Fred
<Vid...@tcq.net> wrote in message
news:0d40febd-d62e-440f...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
FrediFizzx
news:bgv574lqodstfkt17...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:49:56 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Ho hum... More doom and gloomer spam. What is the total stocks of
>>the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
>>probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
>>probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we
>>still
>>got a couple trillion to go for them.
>>
>>Fred
>
>
> home.
Sheesh, the banks will be broke long time before I am. ;-) Unlike
you doom and gloom spammers, I saved and invested our hard earned
dough wisely. The only reason you guys whine so much is that you are
already broke and have no assets. LOL! Guess what? Most people
aren't like you.
Fred
Clave
news:6dgh75F...@mid.individual.net...
That asplains *so* much -- just another "I got mine, fuck you" conservative.
Jim
FrediFizzx
news:9IqdnfZ4R6ABjO7V...@cablespeedwa.com...
Wonderful! Another broke whiner. Anyone that is able bodied and not
a mental cripple can get "theirs" in this country. You have no idea
whether I'm liberal or conservative. I certainly don't want to give
any of my hard earned dough to you loser whiners. ;-)
Fred
Clave
> "Clave" <ClaviusNo...@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
> news:9IqdnfZ4R6ABjO7V...@cablespeedwa.com...
>> "FrediFizzx" <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6dgh75F...@mid.individual.net...
>>> <retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:bgv574lqodstfkt17...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:49:56 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
>>>> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Ho hum... More doom and gloomer spam. What is the total stocks of
>>>>>the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
>>>>>probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
>>>>>probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we still
>>>>>got a couple trillion to go for them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fred
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Freddi's going to keep singing this song till they foreclose on his
>>>> home.
>>>
>>> Sheesh, the banks will be broke long time before I am. ;-) Unlike you
>>> doom and gloom spammers, I saved and invested our hard earned dough
>>> wisely. The only reason you guys whine so much is that you are already
>>> broke and have no assets. LOL! Guess what? Most people aren't like
>>> you.
>>
>> That asplains *so* much -- just another "I got mine, fuck you"
>> conservative.
>
> Wonderful! Another broke whiner.
QE fucking D
4114 Dead
Nah, just another Usenet troll.
Look, if guys like "Fred" were as rich as they say they are, they
would find better things to do than lurk around Usenet at the wee
hours of the morning, trying to impress strangers they profess to
despise.
And most (although not all) peopole who are wealthy don't go around
playing class warriors. They know it can bite them on the ass.
Therefore, old Fred here is a phony, just trying to annoy.
>
>Jim
>
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"Prosperity and peace are in the balance," -- Putsch, not admitting that he's against both
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News...@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essay...@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
FrediFizzx
news:d9r674p4ok1vsp4th...@4ax.com...
It's not my fault you doom and gloom loser whiner spammers crosspost
to the stocks group. We actually make money no matter which way the
market is going. We actually help each other out over here with tips
and research. Unlike you losers that don't have a clue and all you
want to do is whine about problems instead of gettin' your lazy asses
out and doin' something about it.
Fred
4114 Dead
Oh, horseshit, little troll.
Why don't you claim to be the Queen of England while you're about it?
>
>Fred
Vid...@tcq.net
Vid...@tcq.net
> Ho hum... More doom and gloomer spam. What is the total stocks of
> the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
> probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
> probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we still
> got a couple trillion to go for them.
>
> Fred
>
ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FrediFizzx
news:3a0b6ac6-fe39-4fd8...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
=======================
Take that Econ 101 class yet? Didn't think so. Asian stocks are
almost right where I want them to be. Just about time to do some
buyin'. Looks like most of them are all green tonight. But what does
that have to do with financials?
FrediFizzx
news:eer6749d9gph4n791...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:53:18 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>><retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:bgv574lqodstfkt17...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:49:56 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
>>> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ho hum... More doom and gloomer spam. What is the total stocks
>>>>of
>>>>the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
>>>>probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
>>>>probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we
>>>>still
>>>>got a couple trillion to go for them.
>>>>
>>>>Fred
>>>
>>>
>>> Freddi's going to keep singing this song till they foreclose on
>>> his
>>> home.
>>
>>Sheesh, the banks will be broke long time before I am. ;-)
>
> Silly boy.
What I said in no way implies that the banks are going to end up
broke. Neither will I. Not even close on either account.
>>Unlike
>>you doom and gloom spammers, I saved and invested our hard earned
>>dough wisely. The only reason you guys whine so much is that you
>>are
>>already broke and have no assets.
>
> LOL. I pulled out of the market completely in Oct. 5, 2007. I missed
> the peak by about 5 days and totally missed out the meltdown. I was
> up
> about 20% for 2007 at the time. I'm content.
Well, I am glad you got your $10 out. Oops, $12... forgot you made
20 percent. LOL! Heck, I was 1 percent below the Oct. 2007 peak in
the recent May peak. And that Oct. peak was a near moon shot. Guess
you don't know how to work a "fear and panic" market.
>>LOL! Guess what? Most people
>>aren't like you.
>
> So? They're not like you either. Most are far smarter.
>
> Seriously Freddi, you need to start paying some attention to reality
> or you're going to be wiped out even farther.
Tooks some profits at the May peak so ready to buy this bottom. Yeah,
we might eventually take another leg down but I'll be takin' some
profits at the next peak. Ya keep workin' it to stay sharp.
Overweight / underweight the right things. We ain't afraid of no big
bad bear. ;-) Like some people are. I doubt very much that that
sucker is even going to show up. It's all fear and panic stricken
chicken littles. Interest rates are still relatively low and stock
yields are still beating 10 year treas. yields. People are going to
get tired of sittin' on cash that is makin' low interest.
Fred
Vid...@tcq.net
> <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote in message
i sure did. that is why i do not invest in bubbles, or get suckered
by fascism. good for you. keep buying. i never met a casino gambler
yet that admitted to losing. but, the casinos are rich for a reason.
Vid...@tcq.net
>
> news:3a0b6ac6-fe39-4fd8...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 7, 10:49 pm, "FrediFizzx" <fredifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:> Ho hum... More doom and gloomer spam. What is the total stocks of
> > the stock market worth? Around 15 trillion. The total market is
> > probably down way more than a couple trillion. Financials were
> > probaby about 3 trillion of the market before they crashed so we
> > still
> > got a couple trillion to go for them.
>
> > Fred
>
> hey freddi, hows them asian stocks doing, snicker,
>
> =======================
>
> Take that Econ 101 class yet? Didn't think so. Asian stocks are
> almost right where I want them to be.
didn't custer say something on that order, i got'em right where i
want them!!!! ROTFLOL!!!!! no line ever goes straight up, or straight
down. asia's line so far is heading downward rather sharply. in fact,
many chinese investors are in cash right now after their stock market
rout. i bet most wish they were in cash all along.
Vid...@tcq.net
FrediFizzx
news:pgp9745j35h27fk2u...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:34:25 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Tooks some profits at the May peak so ready to buy this bottom.
>>Yeah,
>>we might eventually take another leg down but I'll be takin' some
>>profits at the next peak. Ya keep workin' it to stay sharp.
>>Overweight / underweight the right things. We ain't afraid of no
>>big
>>bad bear. ;-) Like some people are. I doubt very much that that
>>sucker is even going to show up. It's all fear and panic stricken
>>chicken littles. Interest rates are still relatively low and stock
>>yields are still beating 10 year treas. yields. People are going to
>>get tired of sittin' on cash that is makin' low interest.
>
>
Interest rates in the US are not low? Stock yields are not beating 10
year treas. yields? Sorry, but those are the facts and not noise. If
interest rates go up and 10 year treas. yields look like they are
going to start beating stock yields, then I'm goin' to cash and short
the heck out of the market with some of it depending on a couple other
factors. But it is just not going to happen for awhile yet. The
global economy is doing fine despite what the doom and gloomers might
say. We are all setup for upside surprises.
> Sheesh.
>
> Though it's beginning to sound ever more desperate, as if maybe you
> are trying to convince yourself, not others.
I don't care if I convince anyone else or not. Everyone has their own
investing style. I have a specific detailed long term plan and I'm
stickin' to it. The fact that I was up almost to the Oct. peak in May
tells me that the plan is working just fine. I had a lot of
"insurance" against this current downturn.
Fred
Vid...@tcq.net
> <retrogro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
asian stocks fell again today. if you thought yesterday was a buying
opportunity, then today is better. but if you bought yesterday, you
may have lost money:)
everyone thinks they are covered, or hedged. but, hedge funds are
imploding daily. casinos are rich for a reason, as well as the casinos
on wall street.
FrediFizzx
news:bce24cb2-2f5b-445d...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
=======================
As usual, you are wrong again. Shanghai, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea and
Taiwan are all up right now after the US was down. Decoupling for
sure.
Mani Deli
<fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
><retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:pgp9745j35h27fk2u...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:34:25 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
>> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
People are going to
>>>get tired of sittin' on cash that is makin' low interest.
>>
People aren't sitting on cas, its baloney spread by Wall Street, the
savings rate is negative.
>>
>> All you are is noise.
>
>Interest rates in the US are not low?
With the no bullshit inflation rate about 11%, they are despicable.
People are being cheated by the Fed. They feel that there is no point
in saving.
>Stock yields are not beating 10
>year treas. yields?
In fact most bullshit stocks pay no dividend.
>Sorry, but those are the facts and not noise.
They aren't the facts.
> If
>interest rates go up and 10 year treas. yields look like they are
>going to start beating stock yields, then I'm goin' to cash and short
>the heck out of the market with some of it depending on a couple other
>factors. But it is just not going to happen for awhile yet. The
>global economy is doing fine despite what the doom and gloomers might
>say.
Where did you get this piece of information?
We are all setup for upside surprises.
---in disaster.
"The owners of this country count on the fact that Americans will
probably remain wilfully ignorant of the big Red White Blue dick
that's being jammed up their assholes every day. Because the owners of
this country know the truth, it's called the American Dream, because
you have to be asleep to believe it."
George Carlin on who really controls America--
watch the whole video
http://www.bestcyrano.org/carlinGeorgeWhoReally407.htm
FrediFizzx
news:i5dc745i6qt1g4g42...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:30:26 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>><retro...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:pgp9745j35h27fk2u...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:34:25 -0700, "FrediFizzx"
>>> <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
> People are going to
>>>>get tired of sittin' on cash that is makin' low interest.
>>>
>
> People aren't sitting on cas, its baloney spread by Wall Street, the
> savings rate is negative.
I'm talking about people that were in stocks that pulled out. They
are making low interest on their cash right now.
>>> All you are is noise.
>>
>>Interest rates in the US are not low?
>
> With the no bullshit inflation rate about 11%, they are despicable.
> People are being cheated by the Fed. They feel that there is no
> point
> in saving.
>
>
>>Stock yields are not beating 10
>>year treas. yields?
>
> In fact most bullshit stocks pay no dividend.
You obviously don't know what "stock yields" are. It's the inverse of
the P/E ratio. You can add dividends to it if you wish to. Can you
figure out what the current average stock yield is of the S&P 500?
But you probably aren't interested since you just want to spread doom
and gloom BS. Ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever.
Fred
alexy
>"Mani Deli" <not...@inter.com> wrote in message
>> In fact most bullshit stocks pay no dividend.
>
>You obviously don't know what "stock yields" are. It's the inverse of
>the P/E ratio.
While Mani's statement is trivially true if what he refers to as
"bullshit stocks" are those that pay no dividend, in fact the dividend
yield can be a relevant number for some investors. And I have never
heard of "stock yields" defined the way you have. Based on this
definition, why would anyone buy stock in a company that is losing
money? Most of the time when I hear "yield" I think of contractual
payments (coupon yield or yield to maturity on a debt instrument) or
regularly scheduled payments like dividend yield. If I were to
calculate the yield on a stock, it would be something like dividend
yield plus anticipated capital gains over the period for which yield
is being estimated. Current earnings or earnings history, or even
short term earnings forecasts as used in P/E measures could be an
important part of calculating this estimated total return,
BTW, sites found on a google search as well as various investment
glossaries tend to refer (inaccurately IMHO) to dividend yield as
stock yield.
>You can add dividends to it if you wish to.
Why would you do that? Seems to be double-counting the dividends,
since they are paid out of the earnings.
> Can you
>figure out what the current average stock yield is of the S&P 500?
>But you probably aren't interested since you just want to spread doom
>and gloom BS. Ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
FrediFizzx
news:c5mc74h4fkkpdmfbq...@4ax.com...
> "FrediFizzx" <fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Mani Deli" <not...@inter.com> wrote in message
>
>>> In fact most bullshit stocks pay no dividend.
>>
>>You obviously don't know what "stock yields" are. It's the inverse of
>>the P/E ratio.
>
> While Mani's statement is trivially true if what he refers to as
> "bullshit stocks" are those that pay no dividend, in fact the dividend
> yield can be a relevant number for some investors. And I have never
> heard of "stock yields" defined the way you have. Based on this
> definition, why would anyone buy stock in a company that is losing
> money? Most of the time when I hear "yield" I think of contractual
> payments (coupon yield or yield to maturity on a debt instrument) or
> regularly scheduled payments like dividend yield. If I were to
> calculate the yield on a stock, it would be something like dividend
> yield plus anticipated capital gains over the period for which yield
> is being estimated. Current earnings or earnings history, or even
> short term earnings forecasts as used in P/E measures could be an
> important part of calculating this estimated total return,
It is mostly used for broad averages and not for individual stocks. If the
average P/E of the S&P 500 is 20 the yield is 5%. If 10 the yield is 10%.
It is just a quick way of comparing the average of stocks to Treas. yields.
Usually it is compared to the 10 year.
> BTW, sites found on a google search as well as various investment
> glossaries tend to refer (inaccurately IMHO) to dividend yield as
> stock yield.
Well, the stock yield I am talking about is the inverse of the P/E ratio.
Perhaps I should be calling it "stock earnings yield".
>>You can add dividends to it if you wish to.
> Why would you do that? Seems to be double-counting the dividends,
> since they are paid out of the earnings.
Yeah, most of the time it is used without adding dividends. But that makes
the P/E ratio higher than maybe it should be because the dividends would
making earnings lower.
Fred
Vid...@tcq.net
> <Vide...@tcq.net> wrote in message
they are up today, but if you knew anything at all, i posted about
yesterday. besides, one day in a 4 week trend is something that
someone who is truly desperate would brag about. you are beginning to
sound more high pitched daily.
Mani Deli
<fredi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In fact most bullshit stocks pay no dividend.
>
>You obviously don't know what "stock yields" are.
I know exactly what dividends are and I repeat, most bullshit stocks
pay no dividend.
Worthless paper breeds worthless paper. Eventually the stack gets so
high that people realize it's a Ponzi scheme. The U.S. dollar is a
'faith-based currency.' Liquidity Won't Help Insolvency.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservative." -John Stuart Mill
alexy
>I know exactly what dividends are and I repeat, most bullshit stocks
>pay no dividend.
What is a "bullshit stock"? If it is defined as one that pays no
dividends, then I would have to agree that your statement is true, if
vacuous. If it means something else, known only to you, then your
statement is meaningless. And finally, if "bullshit stocks" is your
way of referring to common stock in general, is that true of traded
stocks?
darkst...@gmail.com
> What I said in no way implies that the banks are going to end up
> broke. Neither will I. Not even close on either account.
Well, if you aren't saying that, you should -- because the banks are
going broke. I was watching this morning as I thought we might
finally see a needed correction, but there's no more money to be had.
Fannie and Freddie are going to go belly-up, the financials are taking
such a beating that you have to wonder if WaMu and BoA are going to
even last the year...
Come on.
> >>Unlike
> >>you doom and gloom spammers, I saved and invested our hard earned
> >>dough wisely. The only reason you guys whine so much is that you
> >>are already broke and have no assets.
Problem with that is that 18% of the country has zero or negative net
worth.
Another 21% has just above zero.
Unless you're thinking of "culling the herd" (the Republican mantra),
I don't see the point of it.
The dollar's worth nothing anyway. Most people who have assets have
them only on paper. That's the whole point of all this.
> Well, I am glad you got your $10 out. Oops, $12... forgot you made
> 20 percent. LOL! Heck, I was 1 percent below the Oct. 2007 peak in
> the recent May peak. And that Oct. peak was a near moon shot. Guess
> you don't know how to work a "fear and panic" market.
It's a *rigged casino*, Fred. They can take the market up 200 points
in 20 minutes whenever the fuck they want to squeeze a few bucks out
of short sellers.
> >>LOL! Guess what? Most people
> >>aren't like you.
>
> > So? They're not like you either. Most are far smarter.
>
> > Seriously Freddi, you need to start paying some attention to reality
> > or you're going to be wiped out even farther.
Anyone who's in anything dollar-denominated is going to be completely
wiped out.
Mike
Les Cargill
>
> The dollar's worth nothing anyway. Most people who have assets have
> them only on paper. That's the whole point of all this.
>
People keep saying this, and it's very clearly wrong. The dollar has
just about achieved parity with the Canadian dollar. Well whoop-de-doo.
If overvaluation from 1990-2001 was a fact ( I remain unconvinced, but
it's possible) then what we're seeing is just adjustments necessary to
support the horrendous levels of debt and trade imbalances.
The Consumption Age is giving way to a cycle of US production. Export
markets have been established and goods are flowing - to China,
to India, to all over the world. US exports will either go up, or
imports will go way down. Unlike the rest of the world, and excepting
petroleum, the US can always revert to domestic production.
Sure, there'll be adjustments. It's looking more and more like a flat
year. But so far, it's no 1980-82, and the fundamental changes in
inventory policy will see that it isn't. The present demographic shift
alone has more effect than I've seen commented on.
<snip>
>
> Anyone who's in anything dollar-denominated is going to be completely
> wiped out.
>
> Mike
Hide and watch.
--
Les Cargill