Racist NYC Firefighters Object To Niggers and Spicks In Statue
Trebor
Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
Some heroes, huh?
Ground Zero statue criticized for 'political correctness'
January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
The $180,000 sculpture is expected to be erected this spring at the
Fire Department's Brooklyn headquarters in tribute to the 343
firefighters killed in the attack. It is based on the September 11
newspaper photo of firefighters raising the American flag on about 20
feet of rubble.
The decision to represent different races was made by the Fire
Department, the makers of the statue, and the property-management
company that owns the department headquarters building and
commissioned the work.
"Given that those who died were of all races and all ethnicities and
that the statue was to be symbolic of those sacrifices, ultimately a
decision was made to honor no one in particular, but everyone who made
the supreme sacrifice," Fire Department spokesman Frank Gribbon said.
But Tony Marden of Ladder 165 in Queens called the decision "an insult
to those three guys to put imaginary faces on that statue. It's not a
racial thing. That shouldn't even be an issue."
And Carlo Casoria, who lost his firefighter son, Thomas, said,
"They're rewriting history in order to achieve political correctness."
The three firefighters in the photo -- Dan McWilliams, George Johnson
and Billy Eisengrein -- declined to comment. But their lawyer, Bill
Kelly, said the men are "disappointed because it's become something
that is political as opposed to historical." He said he has written to
the management company and the department, asking them to stop
production of the statue.
But Kevin James, a member of the Vulcan Society, which represents
black firefighters, welcomed the design.
"The symbolism is far more important than representing the actual
people," he said. "I think the artistic expression of diversity would
supersede any concern over factual correctness."
Of the city's 11,500 firefighters, 2.7 percent are black and 3.2
percent Hispanic, Gribbon said. Twelve of the firefighters who died
were black; the number of Hispanic victims was not immediately
available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Randy Sweeney
"Trebor" <tre...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3c40fad3...@news.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
>
> Some heroes, huh?
Trebor,
A question for you in your self-righteous fury, when was the last time you
ran in a burning building to save people you didn't know?
torresD
Three white firefighters raised the flag.
They were not hispanic, they were not black.
What they did, raising the flag, those three white firefighters,
was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
showing we are still here.
White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
It the moment is going to be memorialized,
it should be done as it honestly happened.
"Trebor" <tre...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3c40fad3...@news.earthlink.net...
>
>
torresD
SATURDAY JANUARY 12 2002
Kandahar comes out of the closet
FROM TIM REID IN KANDAHAR
Our correspondent sees the gay capital
of South Asia throw off strictures of the Taleban
NOW that Taleban rule is over in Mullah Omar's
former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions,
kites and razors which have begun to emerge.
Visible again, too, are men with their ashna,
or beloveds:
young boys they have groomed for sex.
Kandahar's Pashtuns have been notorious
for their homosexuality for centuries,
particularly their fondness for naive young boys.
Before the Taleban arrived in 1994,
the streets were filled with teenagers
and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationship.
It is called the homosexual capital of south Asia.
Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy
- locals tell you that birds fly over the city
using only one wing, the other covering their posterior
- that the rape of young boys by warlords was
one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising
the Taleban.
In the summer of 1994,
a few months before
the Taleban took control of the city,
two commanders confronted each
other over a young boy whom they
both wanted to sodomise.
In the ensuing fight civilians were killed.
Omar's group freed the boy and appeals
began flooding in for Omar to help in other disputes.
By November, Omar and his
Taleban were Kandahar's new rulers.
Despite the Taleban disdain for women,
and the bizarre penchant of many for eyeliner,
Omar immediately suppressed homosexuality.
Men accused of sodomy faced the punishment
of having a wall toppled on to them,
usually resulting in death.
In February 1998 three men sentenced to
death for sodomy in Kandahar were taken
to the base of a huge mud and brick wall,
which was pushed over by tank.
Two of them died, but one managed to survive.
"In the days of the Mujahidin,
there were men with their ashna everywhere,
at every corner, in shops, on the streets,
in hotels: it was completely open, a part of life,"
said Torjan, 38, one of the soldiers loyal
to Kandahar's new governor, Gul Agha Sherzai.
"But in the later Mujahidin years,
more and more soldiers would take
boys by force, and keep them for as
long as they wished.
But when the Taleban came,
they were very strict about the ban.
Of course, it still happened -
the Taleban could not enter every house
- but one could not see it."
But for the first time since the Taleban fled,
in the past three days, one can see the pairs
returning: usually a heavily bearded man,
seated next to, or walking with, a clean-shaven,
fresh faced youth.
There appears to be no shame or furtiveness
about them, although when approached,
they refuse to talk to a western journalist.
"They are just emerging again," Torjan said.
"The fighters too now have the boys in their barracks.
This was brought to the attention of Gul Agha,
who ordered the boys to be expelled, but it continues.
The boys live with the fighters very openly.
In a short time, and certainly within a year,
it will be like pre-Taleban: they will be everywhere."
This Pashtun tradition is even reflected in
Pashtun poetry, odes written to the beauty
and complexion of an ashna,
but it is usually a terrible fate
for the boys concerned.
It is practised at all levels of Pashtun society,
but for the poorer men, having an ashna can
raise his status.
"When a man sees a boy he likes
- the age they like is 15 or 16 -
they will approach him in the street
and start talking to him, offering him tea,"
said Muhammad Shah, a shop owner.
"Sometimes they go looking in the football
stadium, or in the cinema (which has yet to reopen).
"He then starts to give him presents,
hashish, or a watch, a ring, or even a motorbike.
One of the most valued presents is a fighting pigeon,
which can be worth up to $400 (£277).
These boys are nearly always innocent,
but such is the poverty here, they cannot refuse."
Once the boy falls into the man's clutches
- nearly always men with a wife and family
- he is marked for life, although the Kandaharis
accept these relationships as part of their culture.
When driven around, ashna sit in the front passenger seat.
The back seat is simply for his friends.
Even the parents of the boys know in their
hearts the nature of the relationship,
but will tell people that their son is working for the man.
They, like everyone else, will know this is a lie.
"They say birds flew with both
wings with the Taleban," Muhammad said.
"But not any more."
Breaking
World News
from PA
January 13, 2002 02:40
Musharraf declares terror crackdown
Al-Qaida "bomb plot" revealed
Afghan villagers forced to eat grass
Car bomb explodes in Bilbao
White supremacists converge on city
"Ugandan police fire on students"
Russia hoping for Summer arms deal
Peso plunges as it cuts dollar ties
Rock talks ready to roll
White racists bring fear to York
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
torresD
M. L. Davis
torresD wrote in message ...Are you?
-*MORT*-
John Smith
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling?
No-one has ever accused you of being "historically accurate", Trebor.
Trebor
On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:43 GMT, "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
>Three white firefighters raised the flag.
>They were not hispanic, they were not black.
who the hell cares what their race was? who the hell cares who they
are anyway? the fact that depicting their race accurately is so very
important to you just proves what a racist you really are. And here I
was thinking they raised the flag because they wanted to raise a
symbol to unite the city, in which case why should anybody object if
blacks and hispanics are included in the symbolism? But apparently it
was really just a cheap publicity stunt to glorify themselves and
showcase the superiority of the white race in a crass attempt to cash
in on the death of 3,000 human beings. Thanks for straightening that
out for me.
Well, that's America for you isn't it?.
cheers,
Trebor
John Smith
M. L. Davis <oglet...@oglethorpe.com> wrote in message
news:bN808.487$B21.1...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
If they are real, will you give a shit, Davis? I didn't think so.
torresD
http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html
> Are you?
> -*MORT*-
No, Mort, I am not an actor.
However, these fotos of dead children, some babies,
some toddlers, all children, all with bullet ridden bodies,
horrify me.
I want to know more about this.
Why are babies lying there with bullets in their brains?
Isn't Israel our ally, can't we talk to Israel about this?
John Smith
**Why not represent the truth, Trebor? Why do we have to revise actual
events to suit your political agenda? Why would you attempt to re-write
history? What happened, happened. Why do you support lies? Isn't the
opposite of true, false? Why misrepresent the facts?**
**Please explain why lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations are required.
Please explain why photographs should be misrepresented.**
**Aren't you being racist? No? Then why are you changing the actual race of
the people depicted in the photograph to fit your needs? That's not
racist?**
**Since when do you care about the 3000 deaths at the WTC? Haven't you
consistently insulted them and their families as mercenary? Cashing in on
the deaths of their loved ones? No?**
Trebor
They raised a damn flag, they didn't run into a burning building.
Blacks and hispanics run into burning buildings too. That's the
entire point.
USA
> >Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> >They were not hispanic, they were not black.
>
> who the hell cares what their race was? who the hell cares who they
> are anyway?
Exactly. So why alter history for the sake of "diversity"?
the fact that depicting their race accurately is so very
> important to you just proves what a racist you really are.
The fact that you support altering history for the sake of "diversity" shows
what an anti-white and anti-historian you are.
And here I
> was thinking they raised the flag because they wanted to raise a
> symbol to unite the city, in which case why should anybody object if
> blacks and hispanics are included in the symbolism?
Why are there no arabs? No asians? No women? No gays?
But apparently it
> was really just a cheap publicity stunt to glorify themselves and
> showcase the superiority of the white race in a crass attempt to cash
> in on the death of 3,000 human beings.
You truly are sick...
Thanks for straightening that
> out for me.
>
> Well, that's America for you isn't it?.
Why don't you go back to where you came from?
John Smith
John Smith <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:aB908.1002$rU.1...@monger.newsread.com...
*How Trebors liberal heart bleeds for the suffering*
SMITH: I wonder how the children of these murdered americans would feel if
they were exposed to Trebors obsene rantings?
TREBOR: They got what they wanted - they're all going to be
multimillionaires now. So who cares how they feel? Give me a couple
million and you can knock off a couple of my relatives too.
SMITH: Would they be ashamed of themselves? Would they feel ashamed of their
parents? Should they be?
TREBOR: Absolutely not. If it wasn't for their parents dying, they might
have to work for a living.
SMITH: Trebor seems to think they should. Trebor seems to think they should
feel ashamed of their country.
TREBOR: They should be ashamed of themselves - cashing in on their parents
death.
SMITH: Trebor, have you ever had some one close to you die? How would that
make you feel?
TREBOR: It didn't make me a millionaire if that's what you'e getting at.
Johnny Johnson
Marine Corps Memorial at Arlington National Cemetery (a statue of the
second flag raising of the American flag over Mount Suribachi) to place
a black and a Hispanic in there to be "politically correct"; right,
Trebor?
BTW: you demonstrated your own racism by leaving a white in the below
mentioned statue; rather than replacing him with an American Indian.
Historical Note: one of the members of the Mount Suribachi group was
full blooded Pima Indian Ira Hamilton Hayes of the Gila River Indian
Reservation, Chandler, Arizona.
John Smith
to the WTC murders. You can easily find it and many other rantings, courtesy
of Trebor, if you do a google search under the name John Smith as author.
John Smith <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:CY908.1003$rU.1...@monger.newsread.com...
Patrick Finucane
> White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
> but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
>
> It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> it should be done as it honestly happened.
This is what happens when real life plagarizes itself from a magazine
picture. Obviously the statue is not made by an artist. An artist can
conceptualize. An artist can imagine. And if done right, the artist can
awe the spectator. Too often, art is poorly done or misunderstood. In this
case, it sounds like a statue is being made by some political committee
that's going to piss off some people no matter what it it looks like. My
reaction? To bad you don't like it. This is a non-story that deserves
little reporting.
Bush-Enron
> January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
>
> NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
> flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
> because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
> transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
>
> Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
> political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
"political correctness run amok" - is talk radio pablum recycled by the
associated press. the statue is to be a tribute to 343 firefighters who
lost their lives, saving lives.
SkullnBonz
> M. L. Davis asked: > >
CounterPunch
December 24, 2001
Why I Resisted Being Drafted into the Israeli Army
By Yair Khilou
My name is Yair Khilou and I am 18 years old. I have refused to enlist
in the army, and will soon be sent to military prison for that. I
decided to write this statement before I am imprisoned because I
believe that the reasons motivating me in my refusal to enlist in the
army are shared by many people.
When I am asked to become part of a large and violent body such as the
Israeli army, I should ask in what activities this body is engaged and
whom does it serve. My parents, teachers and peers might answer that
the army of the state is necessary to preserve my own security and the
security of the citizens of the State of Israel. I desire very much
that there will be security for the citizens of Israel and for me.
And still, I find this answer to be unsatisfactory. I fail to
understand how does that pure Jewish space, which the State of Israel
persistently tries to create by force since its establishment
increases our security. I fail to understand how the repression of the
Palestinian resistance to Israel by means of state terror--more cruel
and of wider scale even than the counter terror which it
provokes--serves the society that I am part of. How does the activity
of the state, implemented through the army, can benefit me and those I
care for?
The 'sterile' Jewish space created by the State of Israel is a ghetto
for its Jewish residents as well. It prevents them from integrating
into the Middle East. Nobody is safe in this space--neither Jews nor
Arabs. Still, my opponents might claim, the State of Israel is a
democracy and its army is the people's army. I wonder where these
people live. I have no ability to affect the actions of the army,
although my friends and I definitely try. I am unable to stop war,
unemployment, inequalities.
The vast majority of Israeli citizens wish to change this state of
affairs. And still, the state does everything to block peace, welfare
and equality. Mysteriously, everything ends up serving the interests
of capitalists and generals.
The Israeli military men and capitalists, together with their
Palestinian peers, do everything they can to remain in power. Their
mass media and educational system spread vicious nationalistic
propaganda, hatred and fear. Thus they divide and rule us. They incite
against each other Arabs and Jews, East and West, while they continue
to reign. These are our real enemies, preventing us from attaining
physical and economical security. Against them Arabs and Jews should
stand together.
I am not willing to accept such a reality. I am all the more unwilling
to contribute to its continuation and fortification by serving in the
Israeli army or in any other terrorist organisation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M. L. Davis
John Smith wrote in message ...
-*MORT*-
M. L. Davis
torresD wrote in message ...
>"M. L. Davis" <oglet...@oglethorpe.com
>> torresD wrote in message ...
>>
> >Are these people just actors?
>
>http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html
>
>> Are you?
>
>> -*MORT*-
>
>No, Mort, I am not an actor.
>
>However, these fotos of dead children, some babies,
>some toddlers, all children, all with bullet ridden bodies,
>horrify me.
Trt Guatamala City, where you can find street children who have hads their
eyes gouged out so they can't identify the policemen who gand raped them.
Try Argentina where street children are herded into alleys and shot by
police to relieve boredome..
>
>I want to know more about this.
Go find out. Try being in a crowd of people who are attacking a military
force. Do you think these kids were deliberately sighted down on?
I suggest you go there and find out.
>
>Why are babies lying there with bullets in their brains?
Bullets fired blindly into a mob do not have any discetion who or what they
hit.
>
>Isn't Israel our ally, can't we talk to Israel about this?
>
You don'tr think they have been asked?
-*MORT*-
harrison numbugger
John Smith wrote:
>
> Trebor <tre...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:3c411998...@news.earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:43 GMT, "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> > >Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> > >They were not hispanic, they were not black.
> >
> > who the hell cares what their race was? who the hell cares who they
> > are anyway? the fact that depicting their race accurately is so very
> > important to you just proves what a racist you really are. And here I
> > was thinking they raised the flag because they wanted to raise a
> > symbol to unite the city, in which case why should anybody object if
> > blacks and hispanics are included in the symbolism? But apparently it
> > was really just a cheap publicity stunt to glorify themselves and
> > showcase the superiority of the white race in a crass attempt to cash
> > in on the death of 3,000 human beings. Thanks for straightening that
> > out for me.
>
> **Why not represent the truth, Trebor? Why do we have to revise actual
> events to suit your political agenda? Why would you attempt to re-write
> history? What happened, happened. Why do you support lies? Isn't the
> opposite of true, false? Why misrepresent the facts?**
>
its not a photograph. its not history. its a memorial. its isnt
misrepresenting the facts it is honoring the heroes. and even if you and
those like you are uncomfortable with it, not all heroes are white male
Christians.
> **Please explain why lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations are required.
> Please explain why photographs should be misrepresented.**
>
its a memorial not a history book.
> **Aren't you being racist? No? Then why are you changing the actual race of
> the people depicted in the photograph to fit your needs? That's not
> racist?**
>
typical racist rant of the right. pathetic.
Chris Nelson
news:Lk808.1944$8C3.30...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> They were not hispanic, they were not black.
>
> What they did, raising the flag, those three white firefighters,
> was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
> showing we are still here.
>
> White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
> but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
>
> It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> it should be done as it honestly happened.
So,only those three particular men who raised the flag should be honored?
Should the statue not honor ALL the firefighters, in which case anonymous
and diverse faces should be used?
--
Chris
AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
Chris Nelson
news:3C40F83C...@mko.com...
Exactly. The faces should be anonymous and diverse, because it is not
intended to honor merely the three flag raisers, but rather, all the
firefighters who lived and died while saving lives that day.
David Lentz
Well why don't we make one of the firefighters a women? It would
be no more absurd.
I recall, shortly after September Eleven, seeing picture of the
dead fire fighters. It struck me that they were for a very large
part Irish and Italian. They did not represent a representative
demographic sample of the United States. The statute should not
be alter to reflect some imagined fact.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Zepp the Weasel
Just goes to show that the NYFD is still got a problem with bigotry, a
problem it's had historically.
The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no blacks
and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that the
memorial represent those who did die.
David Lentz
Zepp the Weasel wrote:
>snip>
> The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no blacks
> and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that the
> memorial represent those who did die.
Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Ninure Saunders
"torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
-Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
-Three white firefighters raised the flag.
-They were not hispanic, they were not black.
-
-What they did, raising the flag, those three white firefighters,
-was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
-showing we are still here.
-
-White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
-but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
-
-It the moment is going to be memorialized,
-it should be done as it honestly happened.
-
Historical accuracy..eh?
Dies that mean that you would be in favor in elimating the oh-oh famous
"galf-raifing at Iwo Jima (sp), since it now known that the the photos
were FAKED?
I bet not.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://www.geocities.com/ninure
The world's second most subversive document
http://www.geocities.com/ninure/declaration.html
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.ufmcc.com
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
Carl D
>
>
>Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
>flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
>Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
>and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
>the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
>hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
>black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
>racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
>representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
>
>Some heroes, huh?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
Might as well take this to the next logical extreme and *add* a female
firefighter to the memorial.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/12/rec.firefighter.statue/index.html
Carl D
Simple solution: scrap the "Flag Raising" idea altogether and create a memorial
that neither singles out nor makes any racial distinctions... something along
the lines of the Vietnam Vets Memorial in DC or Vendome Memorial in Boston.
http://www.firebuff.com/vendome/
Doing so would also make it more visually clear that the memorial is dedicated
to the 343 dead firefigthers and not the 3 who happened to be at the right place
at the right time.
Scout
>
>
> Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
One quick question, then we can decide if the NYC firefighters are racist or
not.
Are the ratios low because non-whites are not allowed to become NYC
firefighters, or do non-whites rarely chose to become firefighters?
Further I will note that it is not the NYC firefighters that are racist
about the statue, but the blacks and the Hispanics which object because
their race isn't represented. IOW, it's those that are bitching about the
race of those depicted that are the racists here. THEY are the ones claiming
that race matters.
So until and unless you can show that the NYC fire department actively
works to keep non-whites from becoming fire fighters, then the only racists
I see are those claiming that the race depicted by the statue matters.
LP
will the insanity end????????
Zino
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
news:0ah08.93557$va.44...@news2.rdc1.mi.home.com...
Translation: For our socialist agenda, the truth is irrelevant. History is
but our pawn.
Chris Nelson
Hmmm.... The plethora of Ronald Reagan hagiographies on the market, the
constant rumors spread by the right about Clinton, and the lies of Nixon,
Reagan, Bushes & other Republican politicians prove that truth is irrelevant
to the right-wing agenda.
> History is
> but our pawn.
The statue is not supposed to represent history - it's supposed to be
symbolic, honoring ALL the firefighters, not just the three white guys who
decided to hoist the flag as a photo op.
Do you think the Iwo Jima statue accurately represents a historical event?
(Hint: the film from which it was taken was staged.)
Chris Nelson
news:3C41AF75...@signfile.net...
But among those who died were blacks and hispanics.
bu...@appointed.com
wrote like a right wing nut;
Were there any women firefighters involved in the WTC incident?
If so, how would "adding" them to a memorial to firefighters be bad?
As I recall, the photo isn't the "thing" being memoralized, it's those
who were represented in it.
======================================================
HELP STOP RIGHT WING IGNORANCE
NEUTER A CONSERVATIVE TODAY
bu...@appointed.com
like a right wing nut;
>will the insanity end????????
When all the right wing nazi/conservative are gone.
Which is looking sooner, rather than later.
====================================================
Poor, pathetic, DIMWIT DANA, blusterers thusly:
IT PROVES YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
Hey ASSHOLE no one but you cares about this,
but it does show you are a hypocritical LOON.
Come on Roseasshole tell us what town you live in,
or are you to chicken to fight.
I am in Phoenix, and my number is listed,
come on chicken man, make your hat.
David Lentz
Chris Nelson wrote:
<snip>
> > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
>
> But among those who died were blacks and hispanics.
343 members of the New York City Fire Department died as result o
9/11. Of these 12 were black. Not out of line with the 2.7
percent of the Department which are black. Hispanics figures
were not cited. (1)
I think a better case could be made for having the statue include
one Irish and one Italian American. Off the top of my head, I am
pretty sure more Irish and Italians died than blacks. Heck the
Micks and Spics did very well on 9/11. They deserve to be on
statue.
David
1.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020111/us/attacks_statue_2.html
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Zino
"harrison numbugger" <hnumb...@leftofcenter.net> wrote in message
news:3C418C16...@leftofcenter.net...
You're the true racist here, if the word even has any meaning anymore
after the way the left has mutilated it. If they're going to use the
photograph as a model, USE THE PHOTOGRAPH. If they don't like the race of
the people involved, COME UP WITH ANOTHER IDEA. I believe it was Stalin who
decided that history should be rewritten to reflect his propaganda. This
whole thing is PC leftist HORSESHIT. What's the matter? Reality isn't good
enough for you? What a bunch of assholes. The truth isn't good enough for
your agenda, so you IGNORE it. Hey, what are honor and integrity if they get
in your way? They're just meaningless words to you anyway, eh, comrade? I
hope I'm around when your kids have to live under a Robert Mugabe wannabe
because you and too many others like you have a stronger connection to
political correctness than you do to reality. Your idiocy is unfathomable.
harrison numbugger
harrison numbugger
so?
> David
> --
> qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Steve Harris
>In article <Lk808.1944$8C3.30...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>,
>Dies that mean that you would be in favor in elimating the oh-oh famous
>"galf-raifing at Iwo Jima (sp), since it now known that the the photos
>were FAKED?
I think it was the second flag raising on the site (they put up a larger and
better flag when they could), but in no sense were the shots "faked." And I
don't think anybody ever intended to say that these were photos of the first
flag that had ever been there.
--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my address. It's open
book. A prize to the first spambot that passes my Turing test.
David Lentz
harrison numbugger wrote:
<snip>
> > > The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> > > famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no blacks
> > > and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that the
> > > memorial represent those who did die.
> >
> > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> >
>
> so?
Well it is a so, if, and only if, it is more important for our
memorials to politically correct than historically accurate.
Maybe we could do a remake of "Gone with the Wind", only with the
O'Hara family racast as black. After all there were black slave
owners. Using the Oliver Stone theory of history, any small
grain of truth is good enough.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Scout
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
No, if you want to make a statue to the faceless and anonymous rescue
workers, then be my guest. However, if you wish to depict a particular event
or moment in history, then it requires that you do so to the highest degree
of accuracy possible......anything else is a revision of history, not a
depiction of it.
Scout
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
Wrong, we are depicting a moment in history, we either depict that moment
accuracy and faithfully or we admit we're not interested in depicting
history but revising it.
Scout
"Zepp the Weasel" <ze...@snowcrest.net> wrote in message
news:ca9332ae.02011...@posting.google.com...
Fine, then don't depict that photo-op. Depict some other moment of history
accurately and faithfully. Otherwise, you aren't engaged in depicting
history but revisionism of history.
PS. isn't it interesting that the only racists are those who what to revise
the race of those in the depiction to match their political agenda.
Scout
Well, yes, but you miss the point, they don't care about accuracy, they want
to revise a moment in history....because of race. That, by definition, makes
them the racists here.
Scout
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RainbowChristiannoh...@dialup-65.56.142.102.dial1.chic
ago1.level3.net...
> In article <Lk808.1944$8C3.30...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>,
> "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> -Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> -Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> -They were not hispanic, they were not black.
> -
> -What they did, raising the flag, those three white firefighters,
> -was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
> -showing we are still here.
> -
> -White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
> -but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
> -
> -It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> -it should be done as it honestly happened.
> -
> Historical accuracy..eh?
>
>
> Dies that mean that you would be in favor in elimating the oh-oh famous
> "galf-raifing at Iwo Jima (sp), since it now known that the the photos
> were FAKED?
>
>
> I bet not.
>
> Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
aka Racist
otherwise, why not depict the race of those 3 faithfully?
Are you saying that their race matters?
h0mi
Trebor wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:43 GMT, "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> >Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> >They were not hispanic, they were not black.
>
> who the hell cares what their race was?
If noone cared what their race was, why was the image modified to
include blacks and hispanics in the picture?
> who the hell cares who they are anyway?
You evidently do, otherwise you wouldn't be yelling about "niggers" and
"spics".
h0mi
harrison numbugger wrote:
>
> John Smith wrote:
> >
> > Trebor <tre...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c411998...@news.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:43 GMT, "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> > > >Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> > > >They were not hispanic, they were not black.
> > >
> > > who the hell cares what their race was? who the hell cares who they
> > > are anyway? the fact that depicting their race accurately is so very
> > > important to you just proves what a racist you really are. And here I
> > > was thinking they raised the flag because they wanted to raise a
> > > symbol to unite the city, in which case why should anybody object if
> > > blacks and hispanics are included in the symbolism? But apparently it
> > > was really just a cheap publicity stunt to glorify themselves and
> > > showcase the superiority of the white race in a crass attempt to cash
> > > in on the death of 3,000 human beings. Thanks for straightening that
> > > out for me.
> >
> > **Why not represent the truth, Trebor? Why do we have to revise actual
> > events to suit your political agenda? Why would you attempt to re-write
> > history? What happened, happened. Why do you support lies? Isn't the
> > opposite of true, false? Why misrepresent the facts?**
> >
>
> its not a photograph. its not history. its a memorial. its isnt
> misrepresenting the facts it is honoring the heroes.
If the memorial were to take 3 or so firemen, and have them standing in
front of a flagpole, honoring an American flag, that'd be 1 thing.
The memorial is clearly intended to mimic the events that happened at
ground zero. To suddenly insert fireman of a specific race or ethnicity
is a good example of "political correctness run amock".
Had the firemen been posing in a faux Imo Jima type pose (which didn't
happen) there'd probably be less to complain about, except by veterans
who may bristle at the thought of that visage being modified in that
way.
> and even if you and
> those like you are uncomfortable with it, not all heroes are white male
> Christians.
So where are the women? There are female firefighters. There are asian
firefighters. They seem to have been left off the list.
Should women and Asians feel slighted too?
> > **Please explain why lies, falsehoods, and misrepresentations are required.
> > Please explain why photographs should be misrepresented.**
>
> its a memorial not a history book.
Its a memorial intending to depict an actual event that took place. And
doing so erroneously.
> > **Aren't you being racist? No? Then why are you changing the actual race of
> > the people depicted in the photograph to fit your needs? That's not
> > racist?**
>
> typical racist rant of the right. pathetic.
Smith wasn't the one ranting about "niggers and spicks" (sic).
h0mi
Chris Nelson wrote:
>
> "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Lk808.1944$8C3.30...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> > Yes, it is important to represent a historic event accurately.
> > Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> > They were not hispanic, they were not black.
> >
> > What they did, raising the flag, those three white firefighters,
> > was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
> > showing we are still here.
> >
> > White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
> > but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
> >
> > It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> > it should be done as it honestly happened.
>
> So,only those three particular men who raised the flag should be honored?
> Should the statue not honor ALL the firefighters, in which case anonymous
> and diverse faces should be used?
If they want to honor the firefighters, they ought to do so without
taking a historical event and modifying it in the manner that they have.
Besides, women and asians weren't part of the memorial. Does leaving
them off the memorial suddenly not honor female and asian firefighters?
Scout
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
Fine, then don't depict the photo-op. If you do depict that photo op and
don't depict it as it happened, then you are in effect telling us that the
race of the participants does matter, making you by definition a racist.
Personally, I would simply depict the twin towers, but that's probably not
enough of a statement for some.
Scout
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
So? Are you telling us that race matters to you?
Scout
<bu...@appointed.com> wrote in message
news:3c41d21d....@news.enetis.net...
Heck, let's just add all 343 firefighters, then let's go ahead and add
anyone else that died. After all, if we are going to memorialize all those
people, then shouldn't all those people be in it?
Randy Sweeney
"Carl D" <ca...@invalid.email.not> wrote in message
news:a1scum$46r$0...@pita.alt.net...
> Might as well take this to the next logical extreme and *add* a female
> firefighter to the memorial.
and perhaps a handicapped person as well... maybe FDR.
Zepp the Weasel
> Zepp the Weasel wrote:
>
> >snip>
>
> > The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> > famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no blacks
> > and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that the
> > memorial represent those who did die.
>
> Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
So? Are you saying that there were no blacks or Hispanics?
>
> David
Zepp the Weasel
> Chris Nelson wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> >
> > But among those who died were blacks and hispanics.
>
> 343 members of the New York City Fire Department died as result o
> 9/11. Of these 12 were black. Not out of line with the 2.7
> percent of the Department which are black. Hispanics figures
> were not cited. (1)
Gee, I thought you race-baiters were against quotas. Yet here you
are, using them to try to pretend that there were no black or Hispanic
heroes on 9/11.
Zepp the Weasel
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:01:17 GMT, Bush-Enron <'Kemp'@mko.com> wrote:
> >> Ground Zero statue criticized for 'political correctness'
> >> January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
> >>
> >> NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
> >> flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
> >> because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
> >> transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
> >>
> >> Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
> >> political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
> >
> >"political correctness run amok" - is talk radio pablum recycled by the
> >associated press. the statue is to be a tribute to 343 firefighters who
> >lost their lives, saving lives.
>
> that neither singles out nor makes any racial distinctions... something along
> the lines of the Vietnam Vets Memorial in DC or Vendome Memorial in Boston.
> http://www.firebuff.com/vendome/
>
> Doing so would also make it more visually clear that the memorial is dedicated
> to the 343 dead firefigthers and not the 3 who happened to be at the right place
> at the right time.
Excellent idea!
Eelder
Hillary Clinton. What is wrong with them?
Eatonfiremedic0911
people in the statue to anything but what they were in real life.
Everyone says 343 firefighters died. Notice no one says 100 whites, 100
blacks, 100 hispanic, 40 asian and 3 female firefighters died.
The memorial is to 343 firefighters who died. They were firefighters. not
white firefighters, black firefighters or whatever firefighters.
Political correctness has run amok and taken over. Let's get real and
represent the event as it actually happened. If the fire department is so
concerned about PC, then they should have had one white, one black, and one
hispanic, and one whatever, raise the flag in the first place to get in the
picture.
Lets get real.
"Randy Sweeney" <tired_of_sp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:w6p08.53379$K36.17...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
Eatonfiremedic0911
situation
"Zepp the Weasel" <ze...@snowcrest.net> wrote in message
news:ca9332ae.02011...@posting.google.com...
Scout
So, if race matters, then the bulk of those killed were white males. If race
doesn't matter then why redesign the statute on the basis of race?
Bill Bonde
Carl D wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:01:17 GMT, Bush-Enron <'Kemp'@mko.com> wrote:
> >> Ground Zero statue criticized for 'political correctness'
> >> January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
> >>
> >> NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
> >> flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
> >> because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
> >> transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
> >>
> >> Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
> >> political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
> >
> >"political correctness run amok" - is talk radio pablum recycled by the
> >associated press. the statue is to be a tribute to 343 firefighters who
> >lost their lives, saving lives.
>
> Simple solution: scrap the "Flag Raising" idea altogether and create a memorial
> that neither singles out nor makes any racial distinctions... something along
> the lines of the Vietnam Vets Memorial in DC or Vendome Memorial in Boston.
> http://www.firebuff.com/vendome/
>
I can see that the only memorials we can now allow are black marble
monoliths with the names of people who have died etched on them. That
seems like a boring way to go for ALL memorials.
> Doing so would also make it more visually clear that the memorial is dedicated
> to the 343 dead firefigthers and not the 3 who happened to be at the right place
> at the right time.
>
They didn't happen to be in the right place at the right time. They
chose to raise the flag on that day at that time to make a statement.
--
"Well, we know what to get you for Christmas. A double lobotomy and ten
rolls of rubber wall paper."
-+Arnold Rimmer
Bill Bonde
There are only three people represented in the memorial. In this
possible rendition, I see that we have a black, a white and a Hispanic.
Did no Asian fire-fighters die? Did no Polynesian fire-fighters die? I
suppose we could check and make sure no women fire-fighters died. Did
any American Indian fire-fighters die? Perhaps one of the fire-fighters
could be part Apache and have a mohawk.
How
about gay fire-fighters? In case some of them died, should we give one
of
the memorialized fire-fighters two earrings? Perhaps one of the
fire-fighters could be seductively looking at another's tush. That would
make sure this memorial memorialized all the groups we've once again
split
ourselves into. And that would be sad.
Unclaimed Mysteries
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
news:0ah08.93557$va.44...@news2.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> "Bush-Enron" <'Kemp'@mko.com> wrote in message
> news:3C40F83C...@mko.com...
> > > Ground Zero statue criticized for 'political correctness'
> > > January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
> > >
> > > NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
> > > flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
> > > because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
> > > transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
> > >
> > > Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
> > > political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
> >
> > "political correctness run amok" - is talk radio pablum recycled by the
> > associated press. the statue is to be a tribute to 343 firefighters who
> > lost their lives, saving lives.
>
> Exactly. The faces should be anonymous and diverse, because it is not
> intended to honor merely the three flag raisers, but rather, all the
> firefighters who lived and died while saving lives that day.
>
I feel that a memorial whose purpose is to honor *all* firefighters who
perished is ill-served by a crass rip-off of a powerful photograph. For a
guide, look to the Vietnam War Memorial in D. C. The statue of the soldiers
near the Wall does not depict a specific event or photo, but who can deny
its power?
Oh, yeah, tell me how having this opinion makes me a racist.
Corry
--
It Came From C. L. Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries.
http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net
I have sold more books about physics than Madonna has about sex.
- Stephen Hawking
Billy Beck
ze...@snowcrest.net (Zepp the Weasel) wrote:
>Just goes to show that the NYFD is still got a problem with bigotry, a
>problem it's had historically.
Yeah, well, at least they don't having burning-down-ass churches
and segregated lines in the burger joints like you and the retard
Yeadon have been lying about forever.
Billy
VRWC Fronteer
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/
Chad Schmick
>
>
> Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
It's called historical accuracy, bub. I know how liberals detest
nonrevisionist history and have absolutely no interest in the way things
actually happened but how they feel things *should* have happened. Libs
love to rewrite history to suit their agendas but some people aren't
interested in a warm-and-fuzzy politically correct adulerated version of
history. We simply want the plain, cold, hard facts about exactly which
event(s) transpired without any revisionist editing. Wild concept for you,
I'm sure, but try contemplating the merits of this perspective for a
moment...
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling?
Anone who is intellectually honest does.
>The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
Yeah, they're all a bunch a Klansmen bigots, aren't they! Or did you
consider that perhaps whites happen to volunteer for the fire department at
a higher ratio than other races? In the wake of a horrendous tragedy that
claimed the lives of hundreds of brave firefighters who marched into the
towering infernos to save others I do wish you the best of luck getting ANY
sympathy for your loathsome, extremist attitude. Also, best of luck
spouting off that diatribe anywhere NEAR NYC without getting your ass handed
to you on a plate!
>
> Some heroes, huh?
Damn straight!
>
> Ground Zero statue criticized for 'political correctness'
> January 12, 2002 Posted: 4:46 PM EST (2146 GMT)
>
> NEW YORK (AP) -- A statue based on the famous photograph of the
> flag-raising at the World Trade Center site is being criticized
> because the three white firefighters in the picture have been
> transformed into one white, one black and one Hispanic.
>
> Some firefighters and their families say the 19-foot bronze is
> political correctness run amok and an attempt to rewrite history.
>
> The $180,000 sculpture is expected to be erected this spring at the
> Fire Department's Brooklyn headquarters in tribute to the 343
> firefighters killed in the attack. It is based on the September 11
> newspaper photo of firefighters raising the American flag on about 20
> feet of rubble.
>
> The decision to represent different races was made by the Fire
> Department, the makers of the statue, and the property-management
> company that owns the department headquarters building and
> commissioned the work.
>
> "Given that those who died were of all races and all ethnicities and
> that the statue was to be symbolic of those sacrifices, ultimately a
> decision was made to honor no one in particular, but everyone who made
> the supreme sacrifice," Fire Department spokesman Frank Gribbon said.
>
> But Tony Marden of Ladder 165 in Queens called the decision "an insult
> to those three guys to put imaginary faces on that statue. It's not a
> racial thing. That shouldn't even be an issue."
>
> And Carlo Casoria, who lost his firefighter son, Thomas, said,
> "They're rewriting history in order to achieve political correctness."
>
>
> The three firefighters in the photo -- Dan McWilliams, George Johnson
> and Billy Eisengrein -- declined to comment. But their lawyer, Bill
> Kelly, said the men are "disappointed because it's become something
> that is political as opposed to historical." He said he has written to
> the management company and the department, asking them to stop
> production of the statue.
>
> But Kevin James, a member of the Vulcan Society, which represents
> black firefighters, welcomed the design.
>
> "The symbolism is far more important than representing the actual
> people," he said. "I think the artistic expression of diversity would
> supersede any concern over factual correctness."
>
> Of the city's 11,500 firefighters, 2.7 percent are black and 3.2
> percent Hispanic, Gribbon said. Twelve of the firefighters who died
> were black; the number of Hispanic victims was not immediately
> available.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Chad Schmick
>
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:43 GMT, "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> >They were not hispanic, they were not black.
>
Why do you care that they be non-white then? The event should be ACCURATELY
memorialized. Why not repaint the portrait of the delegates signing the
Constitution in Philadelphia with a few blacks, Asians and hispanics amongst
our founding fathers while we're at it?
>who the hell cares who they
> are anyway? the fact that depicting their race accurately is so very
> important to you just proves what a racist you really are.
Oh, bullshit! It proves nothing. I LOVE how you liberals so freely sling
around the character assessments and baseless accusations at anyone who
DARES disagree with you about anything whatsoever. It's truly laughable!
>And here I
> was thinking they raised the flag because they wanted to raise a
> symbol to unite the city, in which case why should anybody object if
> blacks and hispanics are included in the symbolism?
*SIGH* Because that's not the way the event transpired! Include blacks and
other minorities in another memorial to September 11th that is not based on
an event in which NO minorities were involved!
>But apparently it
> was really just a cheap publicity stunt to glorify themselves and
> showcase the superiority of the white race in a crass attempt to cash
> in on the death of 3,000 human beings. Thanks for straightening that
> out for me.
>
Boy are you laying it on THICK! Do you REALLY think that way? Life must be
hard for you...
> Well, that's America for you isn't it?.
>
> cheers,
> Trebor
Chris Nelson
news:_1p08.6895$0g.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
A representation of diversity is what matters to me. The statue symbolizes
the heroism of firefighters of all races, not merely whites, working
together in harmony and brotherhood to save their fellow man.
Obviously, race matters to all those complaining that the figures should all
be white, or else they never would have started complaining in the first
place.
--
Chris
AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
Chad Schmick
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
> "torresD" <torr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Lk808.1944$8C3.30...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> > Three white firefighters raised the flag.
> > They were not hispanic, they were not black.
> >
> > was raise the spirits of a devastated city,
> > showing we are still here.
> >
> > White, black, hispanic firefighters died that day,
> > but only 3 white firefighters actually raised the flag.
> >
> > It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> > it should be done as it honestly happened.
>
> So,only those three particular men who raised the flag should be honored?
> Should the statue not honor ALL the firefighters, in which case anonymous
> and diverse faces should be used?
>
It's revisionist history. Why change the details of the event, why alter
the historical record for the sake of pacifying the political correctness
gestapo? Truth and hard facts seem to be of little value to liberals when
compared to advancing their own social agenda.
Chris Nelson
news:3C423636...@mail.com...
>
>
> Zepp the Weasel wrote:
> >
> > David Lentz <Ro...@signfile.net> wrote in message
news:<3C41AF75...@signfile.net>...
> > > Zepp the Weasel wrote:
> > >
> > > >snip>
> > >
> > > > The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> > > > famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no
blacks
> > > > and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that
the
> > > > memorial represent those who did die.
> > >
> > > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> >
> > So? Are you saying that there were no blacks or Hispanics?
> >
>
> There are only three people represented in the memorial. In this
> possible rendition, I see that we have a black, a white and a Hispanic.
They happen to be the three largest races groups in the US.
> Did no Asian fire-fighters die?
Perhaps if the statue depicted four people, we could include an Asian.
> Did no Polynesian fire-fighters die?
Perhaps if the statue depicted five people, we could include a Polynesian.
> I
> suppose we could check and make sure no women fire-fighters died. Did
> any American Indian fire-fighters die? Perhaps one of the fire-fighters
> could be part Apache and have a mohawk.
>
> How
> about gay fire-fighters? In case some of them died, should we give one
> of
> the memorialized fire-fighters two earrings? Perhaps one of the
> fire-fighters could be seductively looking at another's tush. That would
> make sure this memorial memorialized all the groups we've once again
> split
> ourselves into. And that would be sad.
You usually can't tell if someone's gay by looking.
59R50
"Eelder" <eel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3C42213D...@tampabay.rr.com...
59R50
and those who lost their lives while performing their duties. We all take
that risk when we walk out that door. Shame on those who want to make this
a political agenda.
Bradley Love
Carmel Fire Department
"Eatonfiremedic0911" <eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ntp08.28418$Vz3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
rashbick
races, all possible colours, able bodied and disabled it really would be
getting a little out of control. If you (people collectively, not the person
who I happen to be replying to) are that desperate to immortalise all the
races, colours, etc of people who died then place a plaque on the statue
listing it. That is, place a plaque saying "100 whites, 100 blacks, 100
hispanic, 40 asian and 3 female firefighters died".
I may be a female but I really don't see the point of increasing the size of
the statue simply to add a female firefighter (as an example) into the
picture. Like "Eatonfiremedic0911" says "let's get real and represent the
event as it actually happened."
"Eatonfiremedic0911" <eatonfi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ntp08.28418$Vz3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Chris Nelson
> Simple solution: scrap the "Flag Raising" idea altogether and create a
memorial
> that neither singles out nor makes any racial distinctions... something
along
> the lines of the Vietnam Vets Memorial in DC or Vendome Memorial in
Boston.
> http://www.firebuff.com/vendome/
>
dedicated
> to the 343 dead firefigthers and not the 3 who happened to be at the right
place
> at the right time.
I wholeheartedly agree. Or course, we would then hear from the curmudgeons
who objected to the awe-inspiring Vietnam Memorial.
Chad Schmick
"harrison numbugger" <hnumb...@leftofcenter.net> wrote in message
news:3C41E527...@leftofcenter.net...
>
>
> David Lentz wrote:
> >
> >
> > >snip>
> >
> > > The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> > > famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no blacks
> > > and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that the
> > > memorial represent those who did die.
> >
> > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> >
>
LOL! So?... *SO* the monument should reflect the victims who
predominantly fell in the WTC disaster. Some blacks and hispanics died,
sure. The victims were, however, overwhelmingly Irish and Italian. By your
own logic, one of the figures depicted in the statue should be Irish and one
Italian. The other beiong whichever racial group lost the next largest
number...
OR... We could just create the statue to depict the event as it actually
happened. An accurate portrayal of a real historical event... what a
concept!
>
> > David
> > --
> > qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Chad Schmick
"LP" <lpet\"\"e...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3C41CA89...@kscable.com...
> You better add a gay and someone in a wheel chair to that statue. When
> will the insanity end????????
Don't forget the dogs they used to sniff out bodies! Got to include one of
them too!
>
> Carl D wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 03:10:29 GMT, tre...@my-deja.com (Trebor) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> > >flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
> > >Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> > >and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> > >the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> > >hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> > >black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> > >racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> > >representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
> > >
> > >Some heroes, huh?
> >
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Might as well take this to the next logical extreme and *add* a female
> > firefighter to the memorial.
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/12/rec.firefighter.statue/index.html
>
Chad Schmick
<bu...@appointed.com> wrote in message
news:3c41d3f5....@news.enetis.net...
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:56:24 GMT, LP <lpet\"\"e...@kscable.com> wrote
> like a right wing nut;
> >will the insanity end????????
>
Blah blah blah.... See how it goes, the conservative get the upper hand in
the argument, the libs are getting trounced... Time to unleash the Nazi,
KKK, fascist labels! I can't beat you on an intellectual basis so I'll just
try to smear your character with baseless accusations of racism, bigotry,
sexism, homophobia, hatred, fascism, etc, etc, etc... Libs never change
their playbook...
>
> Which is looking sooner, rather than later.
>
> ====================================================
> Poor, pathetic, DIMWIT DANA, blusterers thusly:
>
> IT PROVES YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
>
> Hey ASSHOLE no one but you cares about this,
> but it does show you are a hypocritical LOON.
>
> Come on Roseasshole tell us what town you live in,
> or are you to chicken to fight.
>
> I am in Phoenix, and my number is listed,
> come on chicken man, make your hat.
Chad Schmick
>
>
> Carl D wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 03:10:29 GMT, tre...@my-deja.com (Trebor) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> > >flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
> > >Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> > >and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> > >the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> > >hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> > >black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> > >racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> > >representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
> > >
> > >Some heroes, huh?
> >
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Might as well take this to the next logical extreme and *add* a female
> > firefighter to the memorial.
>
LOL. This is rich!! What the conservatives amongst us suggested in
hyperbole the liberals actually take seriously! Be careful how you mock the
libs, they may just adopt your mockery into their agenda... Boy oh boy.
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/12/rec.firefighter.statue/index.html
Woodard Springstube
wrote:
If the memorial is to be based on a historical event, the flag-raising, then
the statues should represent the event as it actually happened, period.
On the other hand, a better memorial might be as follows: A stairway with
3-5 statues of firefighters, in full gear, running up the stair to rescue
people.
We know that is close to the actual event, without being something that
has to be revised, viz-a-viz published photographs, to depict diversity. And,
that actually captures the spirit of the sacrifices of the 343 dead firefighters
better than the flag-raising, IMHO.
Woodard
LP
whole deal. But since it pissed off his liberal ass , COOL. I agree with
rashbic in her earlier post. The statue should depict the original scene and I
think it would be entirely appropriate to to have on the the statue a statement
to the effect that people of all races and religions were killed in this
tragedy.
oldlib
> Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling? The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
>
Who the hell cares? Liberals do.
David Lentz
Chris Nelson wrote:
<snip>
> A representation of diversity is what matters to me. The statue symbolizes
> the heroism of firefighters of all races, not merely whites, working
> together in harmony and brotherhood to save their fellow man.
>
> Obviously, race matters to all those complaining that the figures should all
> be white, or else they never would have started complaining in the first
> place.
What the point of memorializing history, if if is not accurate.
It was a shame that reporter gave credit to the Rough Riders for
taking hill that was taken by either the Ninth or Ten Cavalry
Regiments. Should we depict the Fifty Fifth Massachusetts and
Hispanic, black and white military unit?
Our heritage is too damn important to piss away on political
correctness.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Scott Higdon
"Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote:
> "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com> wrote in message
> news:_1p08.6895$0g.1...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
> >
> > "Chris Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote in message
> > news:pmk08.93691$va.44...@news2.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> > > "David Lentz" <Ro...@signfile.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3C41AF75...@signfile.net...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Zepp the Weasel wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >snip>
> > > >
> > > > > The three white firefighters didn't die in the collapse, and are
> > > > > famous only for staging a photo-op. But unless there where no
> blacks
> > > > > and now Hispanics among those who died, then it's appropriate that
> the
> > > > > memorial represent those who did die.
> > > >
> > > > Those who did die were for the very large majority white males,
> > > > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> > >
> > > But among those who died were blacks and hispanics.
> >
> > So? Are you telling us that race matters to you?
>
> A representation of diversity is what matters to me. The statue symbolizes
> the heroism of firefighters of all races, not merely whites, working
> together in harmony and brotherhood to save their fellow man.
I think the statue symbolizes the resilience of America. Three firemen
raising the flag at the site of one of the greatest disasters in our
history. Race doesn't enter into it.
>
> Obviously, race matters to all those complaining that the figures should all
> be white, or else they never would have started complaining in the first
> place.
What matters is the accurate description of a historical event in the
form of a monument.
I'd like to see the reaction of guys like you if three black
firefighters had raised that flag and they decided to make a monument of
it. Suppose someone suggested making one of the firefighters white, or
female, just for diversity's sake.
You guys would be up in arms! "What's the matter, are black faces not
good enough for your monument?" "They're stealing our history!"
>
> --
> Chris
> AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
>
>
--
Scott Higdon
=====================================
They say I don't have any initiative.
I could prove them all wrong...
But, why bother?
-Shoe
=====================================
David Lentz
Chris Nelson wrote:
<snip>
> > There are only three people represented in the memorial. In this
> > possible rendition, I see that we have a black, a white and a Hispanic.
>
> They happen to be the three largest races groups in the US.
So what.
It was not a representative demographic cross section of either
New York City or the United State which was rushing into to the
World Trade Center on September Eleven. For the large part they
were white males from working class backgrounds. Personally I
think these guys were a wee bit demented. God bless them.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
David Lentz
59R50 wrote:
>snip>
We honor past heroes for a very important reason. Because heroes
are important and we will need heroes in the future.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
USA
> > It the moment is going to be memorialized,
> > it should be done as it honestly happened.
>
> So,only those three particular men who raised the flag should be honored?
No. All firefighters should be honored, but only those who actually raised
the flag should be depicted. You know, for those who actually care about
historical accuracy...
> Should the statue not honor ALL the firefighters, in which case anonymous
> and diverse faces should be used?
Why not alter the statue of the flag-raisers at Iwo Jima? I mean, the actual
flag-raisers there were an American Indian and a bunch of white guys. But
certainly blacks and hispanics and asians and women and gays died in WWII.
The point of the Iwo Jima statue wasn't the men who raised the flag; it was
the flag itself. The same thing goes (or should go...) for the firefighter
statue.
Display a historical moment as it actually happened. Is that too much to
ask?
USA
> "galf-raifing at Iwo Jima (sp), since it now known that the the photos
> were FAKED?
Man, your spelling is awful!
The flag raising at Iwo Jima was not "faked". Please read up on your
history.
USA
> (Hint: the film from which it was taken was staged.)
Clue : No it wasn't. Read your history.
Matt
<tre...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Who the hell cares if three white firefighters actually raised the
> flag? They raised a damn flag, they didn't find the cure for cancer.
If it's not so important, then why the need to rewrite history to
accord with political correctness? It's evidently important enough to
some people to change history; you just don't want to hear any dissent.
> Who the hell cares about the historical accuracy of something so petty
> and piddling?
Now if three black fireman had raised the flag, and the sculptor were
rendering them as white men, we would hear the biggest outrage about
white racists trying to rewrite history. Do you deny it?
In my own opinion, artwork aimed at memorializing what happened that
day should be true to history. I would find the sculpture distasteful.
> The New York City fire department is apparently one of
> the last bastions of white racism - only 2.7% blacks and 3.2 percent
> hispanic on the Fire department, while 28% of the city population is
> black and 40% is hispanic - over 10 times as high. Seems all the
> racists on the NYC fire department don't want a nigger or a spick
> representing the white brotherhood. That's the real story here.
That is the dumbest thing I've heard... this week, at least.
USA
> > 9/11. Of these 12 were black. Not out of line with the 2.7
> > percent of the Department which are black. Hispanics figures
> > were not cited. (1)
>
> Gee, I thought you race-baiters were against quotas. Yet here you
> are, using them to try to pretend that there were no black or Hispanic
> heroes on 9/11.
To recap :
David : (in reference to the dead firefighters) "...12 were black."
Zepp : "...here you are...try[ing] to pretend that there were no
black...heroes on 9/11."
Me : Baffled at Zepp's overt intellectual dishonesty and race-baiting...
USA
> >
> > So? Are you telling us that race matters to you?
>
> A representation of diversity is what matters to me.
IOW, "yes".
USA
then
> the statues should represent the event as it actually happened, period.
>
> On the other hand, a better memorial might be as follows: A stairway with
> 3-5 statues of firefighters, in full gear, running up the stair to rescue
> people.
> We know that is close to the actual event, without being something that
> has to be revised, viz-a-viz published photographs, to depict diversity.
And,
> that actually captures the spirit of the sacrifices of the 343 dead
firefighters
> better than the flag-raising, IMHO.
I fully concur.
But this idea would still lead to potential problems.
Let's say this hypothetical statue displays 5 "firepeople". What types of
people do we show?
- An Italian is warranted.
- An Irishman is a neccesity.
- A black.
- Probably a hispanic (or latino, if you prefer...).
- A woman.
- A gay (or maybe a lesbian?).
- An asian (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, or Indian?).
- Maybe an arab, so that they aren't solely bad guys on 9-11.
- What about a retard? A "physically challenged" person? An alien from
Neptune?
You see, when it comes down to obeying the laws of PC, there never is an end
to the potential for "offensiveness"...
USA
then
> the statues should represent the event as it actually happened, period.
>
> On the other hand, a better memorial might be as follows: A stairway with
> 3-5 statues of firefighters, in full gear, running up the stair to rescue
> people.
> We know that is close to the actual event, without being something that
> has to be revised, viz-a-viz published photographs, to depict diversity.
And,
> that actually captures the spirit of the sacrifices of the 343 dead
firefighters
> better than the flag-raising, IMHO.
I fully concur.
USA
> firefighters had raised that flag and they decided to make a monument of
> it. Suppose someone suggested making one of the firefighters white, or
> female, just for diversity's sake.
>
> You guys would be up in arms! "What's the matter, are black faces not
> good enough for your monument?" "They're stealing our history!"
Touche!
USA
> O'Hara family racast as black.
Wasn't this already done, more or less?
USA
> > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
>
want
> to revise a moment in history....because of race. That, by definition,
makes
> them the racists here.
I wouldn't call them "racists". They are simply "multiculturalists".
Just because they throw around the word "racist" with wild abandon doesn't
mean we should...
USA
> > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
>
Is this man dense or what?
USA
> > > more specially Irish and Italian Americans.
> >
> > So? Are you saying that there were no blacks or Hispanics?
> >
>
> possible rendition, I see that we have a black, a white and a Hispanic.
> suppose we could check and make sure no women fire-fighters died. Did
> any American Indian fire-fighters die? Perhaps one of the fire-fighters
> could be part Apache and have a mohawk.
>
> How
> about gay fire-fighters? In case some of them died, should we give one
> of
> the memorialized fire-fighters two earrings? Perhaps one of the
> fire-fighters could be seductively looking at another's tush. That would
> make sure this memorial memorialized all the groups we've once again
> split
> ourselves into. And that would be sad.
The Balkanization of American : It's happening right before our eyes, even
in a time of "unity"...
USA
Hmm...seriously, I'd like to see some empirical evidence on this one way or
another.
- Some gays are quite obviously gay; others are not
- Some people appear gay, but aren't.
But I'm not sure what the odds are of being able to spot a gay by a mere
glance...