DO USA MADE PIPES SMOKE AS GOOD AS EUROPEAN PIPES?
fred hanna
pipemakers such as (in no particular order)Mark Tinsky, Rich Lewis,
Paul Bonaquisti, Randy Wiley, Larry Roush, Jim Cooke, Mike Butera,
Todd Johnson, Walt Cannoy, Paul Perri, Bob Herbert, JM Boswell, Trevor
Talbert, Jody Davis and many others.....
And stack them up against the high grades of the great European makers
such as (in no particular order) R. Barbi, S. Bang, Castello, Radice,
Savinelli, Don Carlos, Moretti, Caminetto, Dunhill, Sasieni, Ashton,
Charatan, Ardor, Stokkebye, Ascorti, Viprati, Hedegaard, Ilsted,
Upshall, and so many, many more....
In your experience with pipes of these two groupings, would you be
willing to hazard a general opinion as to which group actually SMOKES
BETTER? I am NOT TALKING ABOUT PRICE, GRAIN, WORKMANSHIP, STAINS,
FINISH, STEMWORK, STYLING, OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT. I am interested in
which group you think are the better smokers. This is a general
question of course. But which group of pipes would you most want to
pick up and actually smoke for the pure pleasure and enjoyment of the
TASTE AND QUALITY OF THE SMOKE ITSELF--NOT THE AESTHETIC ASPECT.
I will start. I perceive no overall difference. In my experience with
these 2 groups, I have had inexpensive Boswells that outsmoked some
highly expensive R. Barbis and Dunhills. I have a Rich Lewis that
smokes as well as any Castello I own. The other day I smoked a
friend's Tinsky giant poker that was incredible, and the same
experience recently with a friend's bent egg Bonaquisti. I have owned
Randy Wiley, Bob Herbert, and Jim Cooke pipes that were simply
outstanding. On the other hand, many European made pipes I own are
absolutely marvelous smokers as well.
I will say it again. On the whole, I don't see a difference. How about
you?
Fred
Da' Bear
Great thread, Fred (Right said, Fred? <g>). I find, that as a group, my
Europeans tend to smoke better than my Americans. That having been said,
My Lee von Ercks smoke as good as anything I have from Europe. I also
don't hesitate to add that I do not have many of America's best carvers
in my collection (Roush, Cooke, Lindner, Johnson), so my informal survey
of one tends to be skewed.
As an adjunct question, can aesthetics truly be removed from the
criteria? Aspects such as perfect drilling definitely affect a smoke,
and the psychological component of smoking an incredible straight grain
in a pleasing shape, is both hard to discount, and difficult to eliminate.
--
Da' Bear
"Bonnnnjoooouuurr ya cheese eating surrender-monkeys!"
-Grounds keeper Willie on properly addressing the French
mdromero
current favorite, I don't like anything Italian made.
Marc
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
Todd M. Johnson
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com:
I think that's a difficult comparison to make for a few reasons. First,
depending on the two particular makes you're comparing it may be Apples and
Oranges. For instance, I think comparing a Savinelli to a Lindner might be
difficult since Savs for the most part have stock bits and are largely
machine made whereas Lindner is so picky and anal (I take these both as
positive traits) that he only makes maybe 20 pieces a year. The level of
detail that goes into the engineering and internals is far greater in a
Lindner than in a Sav. Depending on your particular smoking characteristics
you may like the way Savinellis smoke, but my point is that there can be
wide disparities between particular American and European makers and vice
versa. Perhaps this question can be answered on the whole, but it may be
more beneficial to narrow things down a bit. I can think of a number of
collectors who could probably weigh in on this thread, but unfortunately
only a couple of them are on ASP. Ed Mitchel and Art come to mind as does
John Capuano (but he never posts). My personal collection is too narrow to
speak with authority on this subject. I only own 4 American pipes and 2 are
mine.
Todd
STOA Briars
www.stoabriars.com
Sagiter
Neil
--
Neil Flancbaum
Craftsman
http://www.smokinholsters.com
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
Sailorman Jack
>current favorite, I don't like anything Italian made.
>Marc
>
Sophia Loren.
SJ
Laurence Steinman
L.
"Sailorman Jack" <chantym...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20030221112852...@mb-bk.aol.com...
Ed Mitchell
As you know I collect high grade Danish pipes almost exclusively. Partly
because of the artistic aspect and partly because I think they are superior.
I can already see that this could get complicated....
Okay, I was sold on Danes by Chonowitsch pipes because they smoke great.
Across the board, good smokers. Is it *because* they are Danish? No. It's
because they are properly engineered and expertly finished on the INSIDE.
Bangs on the other hand are beautiful but are not as well finished on the
inside. Lars Ivarssons are also not as well finished on the inside (I'm
referring of course to drilling, mortise/tenon engineering, and stem
finishing). Now, Todd Johnson, Michael Lindner, and Trever Talbert also do
a fine job of finishing the inside of their pipes and the ones I've smoked
are very good. Interestingly Cavicchi pipes are expertly engineered and
they NEVER smoke well for me. Go figure... In fact, the only italian pipe
I ever liked was Rinaldo. Only had one though and I didn't keep it long but
I would try another.
Also, and this is a topic for another thread, the bowl coating used by Jess
and many other Danes is neutral. Personally I think that this is an item
that has not been given sufficient attention overall.
Okay, I'm really busy at the office and this is going to turn into a long
ramble. I'll cut it off by saying that a well engineered pipe and properly
cured wood from any country or maker *should* be a good smoke. However,
I've only met one Italian brand that I've liked and I don't like any English
pipes, so go figure....
Ed
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
Ian Rastall
<emit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>I'll cut it off by saying that a well engineered pipe and properly
>cured wood from any country or maker *should* be a good smoke.
I'm thinking of the Johnson pipe you posted a link to the other day. I
can't say as it seems any different than a top-shelf Danish pipe.
(This may be the voice of inexperience talking.)
I'm mostly interested in finding out what people's opinions are to the
general differences between countries. What makes an American pipe?
Good engineering, interesting design, lower price, limited production.
Except for the price, how are Danish pipes different? What about
Italian, Japanese, English, German? If you didn't know who Todd
Johnson was, would you know instinctively that his pipe is American,
rather than Danish?
Mingkahuna
myself a think and get back to you. My initial reaction is that you're asking
a question to which there are so many variables that such a generalization
would be fairly worthless and and probably unfair. It's apples and oranges
squared.
Art
Tarek Manadily
Of course, no difference in taste and smoking quality. After all, it's the
briar that determines those aspects of a pipe.
If I may quote you:
<QUOTE>
Anyone who is educated enough to buy a reasonably well-made pipe with
well-cured briar has a great chance of finding a pipe whose smoking quality
reaches the status of legend, even though the nomenclature is considered
boring and mediocre from a collecting standpoint.
<UNQUOTE>
I have a Rich Lewis that I cherish so much, and it smokes as well as my best
smoking pipes, regardless of brand, nationality, finish, grade, etc.
--
Tarek
PS: if you hit reply, you'll never reach me ;-) Just check the spelling of
my name before the "@".
--@--
~Home of High Grade Italian Pipes
~ http://www.theitalianpipe.com/
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Mario Persico
I have read your question several times. I really want to answer it. I just
simply do not have a proper answer. I know that might sound ridiculous. I
really do not know.. I mean, I have some American pipes that smoke ok...same
with some high grade European pipes. I suppose I do not have a big enough
assortment of American pipes to make a proper distinction. I have all the
the European makers you list and then some. I suppose I need to get a
Cannoy, Roush, Certainly a Lindner and a Johnson and others...til then I
can't help ya
Great Topic BTW
Mario Persico
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
Ken Lamb
"Ed Mitchell" <emit...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%ps5a.176$qf7...@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...
> Fred, as you once said, briar is briar is briar! Just kidding, of course.
I'll cut it off by saying that a well engineered pipe and properly
> cured wood from any country or maker *should* be a good smoke.
>
> Ed
I agree with Ed
Good wood and engineering
Happy smoking,
Ken "Baileys Reserve" in an Ashton pebble bent bulldog.
grace christian
basically it's a question of the amount of work and detail put into a high
grade. it's cosmetically sound and well engineered. weather american or
european it's no matter.....it's just a market issue, preference and class.
ofcourse,i don't want to compare cars with pipes, but hypothetically
speaking, not everybody drives a pinto or a toyota or a ford or a mesarati,
or a porsche or a mercedes or a bentley, or...a rolls. to the common man
with a pinto, a rolls is a joke. to the rich connoisseur with a rolls, a
pinto is a freak. so you see.....life is a bitch and then he died! <g>
also basically, a pipe is a piece of briar with two holes connecting each
other. you can smoke a rough block of briar with the holes bored and load
it up with baccy. oh yeah,it will smoke baby<g> it may be heavy and look
square in shape....but it will smoke, and smoke great.
why do the pipes made by my mad friend j.m.boswell smoke great? ok, here's
the answer. the wood is of good quality. it is not aged for eons, but just
a few years or a lot less. if you nag j.m. about the wood he will say the
secret is "fresh wood"<g> as for the making....it's a basic drilling
method that makes sure that the holes meet at the proper point. if you ask
him to smooth and mirror finish the insides, he will look at you like you
were losing your marbles. "i make pipes for the common smoking people and
make sure they get every pennies worth. if you want to look at your face on
the inside of your pipe you're better buy friggin' mirror!"...that's what
he'd say.
so, i would agree with buzz and todd.......it is like apples and oranges
when it comes to comparing the higher grades. high grades are a work of art
and consume a lot time. they show the spirit of the pipe maker within. high
grades are not production pieces and though they may be a joke for the
common smoker, but; there is an inevitable market for them and there are
smokers who love to behold the beautiful craftsmanship. some love them for
the name, some for personal reasons preference, some for collecting, some
for market value, and some who don't even smoke pipes but like to buy them
just because they like them.
now, this is as far as my boid brain can think.....but i'd love to hear what
my dark lord has to say about the same. for these are the brief moments of
coherence and awareness that i experience, and, it is only when the masters
speak.
the rest of the time.....i like to be stark mad.
cheers
darius
www.grc-pipes.com
"To da moon alice.....to da moon"
Jackie Gleason
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
G. L. Pease
(in message <%ps5a.176$qf7...@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com>):
> Also, and this is a topic for another thread, the bowl coating used by Jess
> and many other Danes is neutral. Personally I think that this is an item
> that has not been given sufficient attention overall.
Don't get me started on THIS one again. *g*
Roush's coating is probably the most neutral I've ever experienced.
Chonowitsch uses something that, while I think it's really pleasant, I
would never refer to as neutral. Most of the Danes use something else,
and overall, I'm not too fond of the stuff, though after a dozen bowls or
so, the effect of the coatings on the flavour of the pipe tends to go
away.
(I had Bengt make me two pipes, one coated, one not. There was a clear
difference for the first few bowls. Now, I can't tell the two pipes
apart.)
In general, I don't like coatings, don't want coatings, but some are
inoffensive enough to be ignored. The stuff Tokutomi puts in there,
though, has GOT to go before the pipe can be lit. (In my post in the
Japanese pipe maker thread, I think I referred to it as being like
battleship paint or cosmoline. I stand by that...)
I've never experienced a coating that was truly dreadful after the first
few bowls, but on initial light, some of them can be pretty nasty
tasting...at least to me.
-glp
--
Gregory Pease
Principal Tobacco Alchemist
G. L. Pease Tobaccos, Intl.
http://www.glpease.com
G. L. Pease
(in message <3e565c8a$1...@corp.newsgroups.com>):
> Of course, no difference in taste and smoking quality. After all, it's the
> briar that determines those aspects of a pipe.
Tarek, my friend, I must respectfully disagree with this, though it is a
commonly held belief.
By way of example, I recently took a pipe thatsmoked very poorly, and
decided to see what I could do to improve it. The flavour was thin,
harsh, and lacking in the qualities that, to me, make a good smoking
experience. Further, the pipe smoked damp, and gurgled worse than a cheap
drunk on Saturday night.
After opening up the airway, doing some significant modifications to the
inside of the stem, (tapering the tenon inlet, fixing the slot at the bit
end, and so on), the difference was like night and day. What was a pretty
terrible smoking experience was now very good. In fact, it's an
exceptional pipe with a particular tobacco, and has become a favourite.
Clearly, it was not the wood that determined the smoking characteristcs
of this pipe, but the way it was constructed.
You can't make a great pipe out of bad wood, but you can certainly make a
bad pipe out of good wood!
Further, the way the briar is treated by the pipe maker makes a
difference to the flavour. Oil curing, acid baths, and so on, can
influence the flavour of the pipe for decades. (I have old Dunhills that
have been smoked to death by their prior owners, and they still exhibit
that wonderful oil-cured taste and aroma. I don't buy it that this
quality is only noticeable in the early bowls, though many have made this
assertion.)
That said, I do agree that the nationality of the pipe has little to do
with it's smoking qualities - unless there's something in the air that
changes the briar somehow while the pipe is being made...
There's so much more to say on this topic, but it will have to wait until
later... I need coffee.
Best,
Greg
mdromero
exclusively now, forsaking all others, and I have never enjoyed smoking a
pipe in the past 26 years more than I do now, JM Boswell pipes have been an
awakening for me. "Two Thumbs Up".
Marc
"grace christian" <gra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:b35oud$1fj1hc$1...@ID-138587.news.dfncis.de...
firedancerflash
Both continents have some fine pipemakers. I love my Danish pipes, and I
have one Linatra that I dearly love. I also have some U.S. pipes that I'd
never part with. They are excellent smokers. Eight out of ten times,
Boswells are marvelous, and you will never go wrong with a Tinsky, a Von
Erck, or a Kabik, and these are only my personal faves. June
--
None but a piper keeps up with THE DANCER.
"G. L. Pease" <g...@glpease.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BA7BAA51...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
SSG Psaki
Smoking my newly received Barbary Coast in my spanking new, unsmoked
Paronelli, and I ain't doing the stuff any justice. The flavors are good,
but I feel there is more "there" waiting to reveal itself as the bowl of the
pipe matures. Suffice it to say, I waited on smoking anything in this until
I got a tobacco I could dedicate to it. So far, VERY good, but can't wait
for these two to marry. The coating doesn't seem to be intrusive, but it
isn't helping, either.
Looking forward to your new baby due next month (oh, and good work on this
blend, too, which I know you've heard before).
Regards,
-=<NICK>=-
--
<<<) P
"This We'll Defend" - motto of the U.S. Army
"G. L. Pease" <g...@glpease.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BA7BAA51...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
fred hanna
> fred hanna wrote:
<snip>
> > I will start. I perceive no overall difference. In my experience with
> > these 2 groups, I have had inexpensive Boswells that outsmoked some
> > highly expensive R. Barbis and Dunhills. I have a Rich Lewis that
> > smokes as well as any Castello I own. The other day I smoked a
> > friend's Tinsky giant poker that was incredible, and the same
> > experience recently with a friend's bent egg Bonaquisti. I have owned
> > Randy Wiley, Bob Herbert, and Jim Cooke pipes that were simply
> > outstanding. On the other hand, many European made pipes I own are
> > absolutely marvelous smokers as well.
> >
> > I will say it again. On the whole, I don't see a difference. How about
> > you?
> >
> > Fred
>
> Great thread, Fred (Right said, Fred? <g>). I find, that as a group, my
> Europeans tend to smoke better than my Americans. That having been said,
> My Lee von Ercks smoke as good as anything I have from Europe. I also
> don't hesitate to add that I do not have many of America's best carvers
> in my collection (Roush, Cooke, Lindner, Johnson), so my informal survey
> of one tends to be skewed.
> As an adjunct question, can aesthetics truly be removed from the
> criteria? Aspects such as perfect drilling definitely affect a smoke,
> and the psychological component of smoking an incredible straight grain
> in a pleasing shape, is both hard to discount, and difficult to eliminate.
Well, Bear,
I think it is possible to consciously and knowing separate these
aesthetic aspects from the main focus of awareness, which in this case
is the smoking experience. I collect gorgeous straightgrains and I
make such distinctions all the time. If I can distinguish the smoke of
a pedestrian Boswell from an upper class S. Bang, and find that the
Boswell smokes better, that is evidence of the possibility in and of
itself, that it can be done. In my circle of pipe loving friends, we
love to do this sort of thing. It is like finding a $15 Cabernet that
beats the hell out of a $75 classed growth Bordeaux. As for the
perfect drilling, I think that it is important but overrated. I have
had pipes with merely adequate drilling that smoked rings around pipes
that were drilled perfectly.
Fred
Stephen B.
> As an adjunct question, can aesthetics truly be removed from the
> criteria? Aspects such as perfect drilling definitely affect a smoke,
> and the psychological component of smoking an incredible straight grain
> in a pleasing shape, is both hard to discount, and difficult to eliminate.
>
> --
> Da' Bear
I think aesthetics is an important determining factor, as well. Sometimes
differences in the smokability between pipes, of comparable grades, can be
negligible. The visual appeal can be quite different from pipe maker to
pipe maker and, while there are some exceptional Americans doing it (even
though some of them move to Europe- Trevor), it seems to me that there are
more European carvers paying greater attention to this aspect than their
American counterparts. Hand painted stains to emphasize the grains and
immaculate forms flowing from bowl to stem. Hell, they've been doing it for
generations. We have no apprentice type system for younger carvers, they
are not carving lower grade pipes before going out and having marquee
signatures of their own. American carvers have trial and error or good
advice from the more established craftsman. I know of only two exceptions
in Mark Tinsky and Elliott Nachwalter who both apprenticed first. European
craftsman have many "old masters", and established mechanisms for tutelage.
Both Mark and Elliott are young carvers in their own right, though they are
established artisans.
Can anyone point to an artisan who came out of Jobey as compared to Dunhill,
Charatan, Stanwell, Larsen, Caminetto etc.?
-Stephen B.
John Offerdahl
answer as best I can.
I own, or have owned, pipes from Tinsky, von Erck, and Boswell. The
Boswell easily outsmokes anything of similar range from most European
makers, with the possible exception of a Stanwell. The Tinskys and von
Erck I have stand up strong beside my Ashton, Don Carlos, or Ser
Jacopo pipes. I can tell differences in the smoke, but not in the
QUALITY of the smoke. For that matter, of course, there is a
difference in the smoke between the pipes Lee makes and the pipes Mark
makes, just as there is a difference in how a Don Carlos smokes
compared to an Ashton. These differences have nothing to do with the
appearance of the pipe, the technical expertise of the crafting, or
the styling, finish, etc.; rather, they come of the pipes simply being
different.
I'll gladly pay for an American pipe and proudly smoke it.
fredc...@comcast.net (fred hanna) wrote in message news:<c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com>...
Ian Rastall
wrote:
>I know of only two exceptions
>in Mark Tinsky and Elliott Nachwalter who both apprenticed first.
Stephen, if I'm not mistaken, Darius Christian learned from Mark and
Trever, and then apprenticed with J.M. Boswell. Also, I think you
could make a case for Todd Johnson being an apprentice of, err, Tom
Eltang?
I think you're right that, in general, there is no long history of
apprenticeship in America like there is in Europe. Hopefully that will
change one day. Maybe Mark should start hiring other carvers.
rhodog
This said, I also own or owned quite some American pipes that presented
technical issues, like remarkably uncomfortable bits, airways that were too
tight, imperfect drilling and so on. I don't want to imply that my European
pipes never present that kind of issues, but all in all and when comparing
American and European pipes of the same price level, it's my experience that
the engineering and finish of European pipes tend to be better.
But I'm sure in the near future more and more American pipe makers will
become real competitors for the European carvers.
Cheers,
Erwin
Andy Karp
> willing to hazard a general opinion as to which group actually SMOKES
> BETTER? I am NOT TALKING ABOUT PRICE, GRAIN, WORKMANSHIP, STAINS,
> FINISH, STEMWORK, STYLING, OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT. I am interested in
> which group you think are the better smokers. This is a general
> question of course. But which group of pipes would you most want to
> pick up and actually smoke for the pure pleasure and enjoyment of the
> TASTE AND QUALITY OF THE SMOKE ITSELF--NOT THE AESTHETIC ASPECT.
>
> I will start. I perceive no overall difference. In my experience with
> these 2 groups, I have had inexpensive Boswells that outsmoked some
> highly expensive R. Barbis and Dunhills. I have a Rich Lewis that
> smokes as well as any Castello I own. The other day I smoked a
> friend's Tinsky giant poker that was incredible, and the same
> experience recently with a friend's bent egg Bonaquisti. I have owned
> Randy Wiley, Bob Herbert, and Jim Cooke pipes that were simply
> outstanding. On the other hand, many European made pipes I own are
> absolutely marvelous smokers as well.
>
> I will say it again. On the whole, I don't see a difference. How about
> you?
>
> Fred
Fred,
I agree with you: a well-made pipe is a well-made pipe, wherever it
comes from. And while I admit to a penchant for Italian pipes, my best
American pipes are every bit their equal. Paul Perri, Randy Wiley
being but two examples.
--Andy
Bonaquisti
hazard a general opinion as to which group actually SMOKES BETTER? I am NOT
TALKING ABOUT PRICE, GRAIN, WORKMANSHIP, STAINS, FINISH, STEMWORK, STYLING, OR
ANYTHING OF THE SORT. I am interested in which group you think are the better
smokers.<<
Hi Fred,
OK, I'll hazard a guess... :-)
A pipe that is correctly engineered, with good quality wood that has been aged
properly, should smoke well, regardless of the country it was fabricated in.
Each pipemaker has his own methods and some do affect the way a pipe will
smoke… Many makers (including myself) hand cut stems, others will polish the
inside bowl walls... do these touches affect the way a pipe smokes? Certainly
not as much as tobacco chamber and airway diameters do. IMNSHO, engineering
and the briar are the keys to a great pipe. Of course, shapes also play a role
in the way the pipe will smoke, as will the type of tobacco and the way a
person smokes it. Lot's of variables…
I am sure aesthetics play a role in how a pipe smokes as well, as a $950.00
Thorbang Eltungowich (fictional maker BTW) just HAS to smoke better than a
$150 Boswell, right? I think it has been said here many times that you don't
need to spend a ton of money to get a great smoking pipe… leaving what makes
a hand made pipe more expensive to another discussion…
Wood is very individual, and influenced by the climate it grows in. Each piece
smokes differently. So… does that mean that you can buy an American pipe
made from Italian wood and it will smoke better than a Danish pipe made from
Corsican briar? You bet! But the reverse is also true...
Bottom line is, if the engineering is correct, the pipe and stem are
comfortable and the shape is not too radical, it's probably the piece of wood
that will most determine how the pipe smokes, with a little help from the
pipemaker of course… :-)
PB
Mike at The Piperack
piece
> made from Italian wood and it will smoke better than a Danish pipe made
from
> Corsican briar? You bet! But the reverse is also true...
Not a lot of time to sit and write on this right now, but I also think that
the climate where blocks are cut from the root, how they are boiled, the
climate where they are air cured and worked has something to do with it,
too.
In some cases, it can make a huge difference - especially how the wood is
cut and boiled.
Michael
Tarek Manadily
determines the taste and the smoking quality, PROVIDED that the pipe is well
made and engineered.
The same maker could make two identical pipes (if identical exists) out of
two qualities of wood, and I would expect the pipe to smoke differently,
depending on how different the woods are. On the other hand, two identical
pieces of the same high quality briar (if identical exists), made into two
technically perfect pipes by two makers from two different planets are
likely to both of the same excellent smoking quality.
I have pipes in my collections that I love dearly: Some for their beauty
and I don't smoke them at all because they're terrible smokers, and others
that are butt-ugly but I keep reaching for them when I'm not in a mood for
compromises because they're great smokers. Like yourself, I have managed to
intervene and move a pipe from the former category into the latter.
--
Tarek
PS: if you hit reply, you'll never reach me ;-) Just check the spelling of
my name before the "@".
--@--
~Home of High Grade Italian Pipes
~ http://www.theitalianpipe.com/
"G. L. Pease" <g...@glpease.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BA7BACDC...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Mark Tinsky
<mi...@thepiperack.com> wrote:
Hi Mike I agree
Have you ever made two pipes from the same block, similar in design
and see if they tasted the same? I ve always meant too. Can you
imagine if there were differences? MT
Mingkahuna
>determines the taste and the smoking quality, PROVIDED that the pipe is well
>made and engineered.
I think that while I basically agree with Tarek's statement here, it kind of
demonstrates the problem with the types of comparison that this thread seeks to
make. The bottom line is that there is an underlying assumption as to some or
many vairiables that "all things are equal." But, the fact of the matter is
that all things are almost never equal, expcept amongst an individual carver's
work, and even there you have the natural variables associated with different
pieces of briar. And, when you consider everything that is involved with a
pipe I would have to really think that nationality of origin would have to be a
very minor consideration. But, that may not be entirely so. And someone hit
upon the key in another post. Apprenticeship. Go to Per Billhall's site and
read the great piece by Jakob Groth and you'll start to understand why Danish
pipes may have that extra something special in the way of smoking better
consistently. The art has been passed on from carver to carver by masters who
have taught, and many men that have carved under those masters. This is
something that we don't yet have in the US and aren't likely to have any time
soon. To me it makes all of the difference in the world when you look at a
group of pipe makers as a whole.
Akira Kurasowa once said that making a film was like writing one page of a book
every day, and, the secret to making a good film was to write a good page each
and every day. Consistency is the key and the Danes have this strength. Where
does this consistency come from? I think that much of it comes from of the art
having been passed down from master to apprentice, the basics having been
instilled upon the apprentice. Sure, when the basics were learned the
apprentice strikes out and makes his own statment, but the consistency is built
into the system.
I think that in the US we will begin to see (or have begun to see) a similar
benefit as pipe makers share knowledge and techniques with each other, but
never the apprenticeships that you have seen amongst European carvers,
especially the Danes.
I'd also note that a similar progression can be seen amongst Italian carvers.
Radice, Castello, Ascorti, Giancarlo Guidi, Mastro just to name a few.
But again, this is only one variable, and the comparison is so difficult to
make. But, I'd argue that consistency is the hallmark of a great pipe maker,
and this is something that we see amongst the Danes.
Also, and finally, we talk about "good briar". I'd point out that there is
also an art to picking out good briar, and knowing what to do with it once it
is picked out. Some briar is bad from the start, but other briar only becomes
great once it is in the right hands.
All things are never equal.
Art
grace christian
....another story is.... about gonad skins and pieces at briar mills along
with the blocks. once in a while you hear a cutter speak in a high falsetto
and presto you know where his wilbur ended up. ayieya molto dermattato !!!
they do it the old fashioned way and sit on the floor and sometimes da blade
falls right on da family jewels.<g>
i often wonder if the pipes smoke funny due to dat.
cheers
darius
"Mike at The Piperack" <mi...@thepiperack.com> wrote in message
news:UIScnUXZNeY...@comcast.com...
G. L. Pease
having this conversation in person over a bowl of something tasty.
Perhaps in Chicago?
I don't disagree with these things, but I believe there's more to the
equation - probably more than we as mere mortals will ever really be able
to wrap our minds around. Fred and I have actually discussed the
metaphysics of pipes. I've had similar conversations with some of the
pipe makers I admire so much.
I asked Peter to make me two pipes from the same block, and to make them
as identical as possible. He did a fantastic job of it, and I use these
for comparing two similar but different blends. The pipes smoke as close
to the same as any two pipes can. It was a useful experiment.
I have a pipe made by Peter from the same wood Tom uses, and a pipe from
Tom of that same wood. There's a difference, but the shapes are
different, the engineering is slightly different. Both pipes are
exquisite smokers, but they are different.
I have pipes from Larry made from a variety of different wood. They all
smoke like Roush pipes, a testament to his engineering and the curing
voodoo he practices on dark moons. (I think I just figured out why he
only roughs out pipes once a month...)
I have had discussions with a few people, including David Field, about
briar, and we've separately and collectively come to the conclusion that
where the briar is stored, where the pipe is made, may have a subtle
influence, or perhaps a not too subtle one, on the flavour of the pipe.
It wonder if the pipes Teddy makes in Italy taste different from those he
makes in Århus.
And, I wonder, sometimes, if we can ever be truly objective in our
evaluation of a pipe's smoking qualities. If the stem is not comfortable,
if it doesn't feel good in the hand, if it's too heavy, if we consider it
ugly, can we enjoy the smoke as much as if these things are all
exquisitely executed?
Fred, as a phenomenologist, you'd better weigh in on this. With wine
tasting, you can truly blind the taster. You can serve the wines in
identical glasses, at identical temperatures, with identical pour
volumes. You can't do that with pipes. There are too many sensory inputs
that have nothing to do with the smoking quality of the pipe, at least
directly. Can we really NOT be influenced by the confounding factors of
form, and be fully objective about function?
I would say without reservation that my best US made pipes smoke as well
as my best European pipes, but that they are as different from each other
as any two European makers pipes are from each otherr, or as any two
pipes are from one another. While different brands may have their
signature, each example is unique in its own regard.
Damn it, Fred. It's a silly question. Why do you do this to me? I thought
we were friends...
And, I haven't even finished my original reply to this thread...
-glp
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:36:27 -0800, Tarek Manadily wrote
(in message <3e568...@corp.newsgroups.com>):
> Well, my dear Greg, of course, I mean the briar is what ultimately
> determines the taste and the smoking quality, PROVIDED that the pipe is well
> made and engineered.
>
> The same maker could make two identical pipes (if identical exists) out of
> two qualities of wood, and I would expect the pipe to smoke differently,
> depending on how different the woods are. On the other hand, two identical
> pieces of the same high quality briar (if identical exists), made into two
> technically perfect pipes by two makers from two different planets are
> likely to both of the same excellent smoking quality.
>
> I have pipes in my collections that I love dearly: Some for their beauty
> and I don't smoke them at all because they're terrible smokers, and others
> that are butt-ugly but I keep reaching for them when I'm not in a mood for
> compromises because they're great smokers. Like yourself, I have managed to
> intervene and move a pipe from the former category into the latter.
--
Bonaquisti
and many men that have carved under those masters. This is something that we
don't yet have in the US and aren't likely to have any time soon. To me it
makes all of the difference in the world when you look at a
group of pipe makers as a whole.<<
Interesting point Art, but *could* this work in the US? I am sure population
wise, pipemaking is more of a possible occupation in Denmark as it could be in
the US. Pipe smoking is dwindling here, and there just isn't the demand.
There are only a few factories making pipes any more. Of these, all are
production pipes (with the exception of Kaywoodies hand mades) and priced to
sell in the "basket pipe" range. Not much need for master craftsmen for the
most part.
OTOH, how could a low production maker such as myself or Larry Roush or Jim
Cooke take on an apprentice? Where would he stay if he was from out of state?
(the US is ALOT bigger than Denamark) Who would feed him? and how could he
afford to do it these days? I am assuming the majority of US carvers couldn't
afford to pay an apprentice much, and most likely couldn't afford to keep him
on after his apprenticeship was finished. I would have loved to apprentice for
Cooke when I first started, but it would never have worked for me... I had an
apartment, car, insurance, a girlfriend, etc. couldn't give that up to
apprentice for a year or more... maybe if I started when I was a teen, and
still living home it would have been different.
Another thing to consider, is that many makers are one man operations, and
don't *need* and apprentice. Some may even feel they would only be training
their competition by taking one on. Many are free with advice and suggestions,
but many are not.
You are right we will never see the structured apprenticeships like there used
to be in Europe, it just isn't possible.
However, with the styles of pipes that the best US carvers produce, the US
artisan pipe market has a real look of its own, and is a mix of different
ideas, techniques and styles that you wouldn't see if everyone learned from the
same 5 or 6 guys.
So... the US carvers may not be so homogenous as a group, but they do offer an
array of styles that not only identifies them with their country, but also
allows each to have their own unique and individual interpretation of the
craft.
PB
John Hamilton McGrath
same material(s) and generally the same techniques. The one superior aspect
of our pipes, is - the lack of "filter" thingies...;) Interestingly, I was
talkin' to a European collector who includes pipes from our side of the
great water... and he suggested that Europeans "generally" have little
interest in our pipes. I'd hate to think this is true... maybe we should
start doin' the filter thing...?
John
==========================
John Hamilton McGrath
Handcrafted Pipes:
http://www.pipe-works.net/
==========================
----------
In article <c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com>,
fredc...@comcast.net (fred hanna) wrote:
> When we take high grade pipes made by the likes of the great American
> pipemakers such as (in no particular order)Mark Tinsky, Rich Lewis,
> Paul Bonaquisti, Randy Wiley, Larry Roush, Jim Cooke, Mike Butera,
> Todd Johnson, Walt Cannoy, Paul Perri, Bob Herbert, JM Boswell, Trevor
> Talbert, Jody Davis and many others.....
>
> And stack them up against the high grades of the great European makers
> such as (in no particular order) R. Barbi, S. Bang, Castello, Radice,
> Savinelli, Don Carlos, Moretti, Caminetto, Dunhill, Sasieni, Ashton,
> Charatan, Ardor, Stokkebye, Ascorti, Viprati, Hedegaard, Ilsted,
> Upshall, and so many, many more....
>
> In your experience with pipes of these two groupings, would you be
> willing to hazard a general opinion as to which group actually SMOKES
> BETTER? I am NOT TALKING ABOUT PRICE, GRAIN, WORKMANSHIP, STAINS,
> FINISH, STEMWORK, STYLING, OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT. I am interested in
Tarek Manadily
I don't know what it would take to break this MYTH of Europeans wanting
filters in their pipes.
It ain't true, unless "Europeans" is a new synonym for "Germans".
--
Tarek
PS: if you hit reply, you'll never reach me ;-) Just check the spelling of
my name before the "@".
--@--
~Home of High Grade Italian Pipes
~ http://www.theitalianpipe.com/
"John Hamilton McGrath" <ja...@netrover.com> wrote in message
news:hrz5a.5839$cB3....@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
Tony Miller
Sailorman Jack <chantym...@aol.com> wrote:
>>From: "mdromero" mdrom...@msis.net
>>I tend to favor American carvers over European carvers, JM Boswell being my
>>current favorite, I don't like anything Italian made.
>>Marc
>>
>
> Sophia Loren.
But is she "drilled properly"?
> SJ
-Tony
:)
--
Keep your own cigar diary online. http://www.cigardiary.com
Check out the new pipe page: http://pipes.cigardiary.com/
Cigar-specific banner exchange: http://banners.cigardiary.com/
Ed Duncan
any difference. (Well, I might feel the shape of an unusual freehand
and recognize it as either US/Euro). but you asked of smoking quality,
I say, in my case, NO.I have 55 total pipes, 52 mid and/or high
grades, 3 junkers (for around work). Good question...now I'll go back
and read all the followups!
Ed Duncan, Batavia, NY
(can't smoke at the computer anymore....giant SamMartin freehand
loaded with Apertif in my "back room" for a bit later).
*****************************************
fredc...@comcast.net (fred hanna) wrote in message news:<c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com>...
Da' Bear
> John, John, John...
>
> I don't know what it would take to break this MYTH of Europeans wanting
> filters in their pipes.
>
> It ain't true, unless "Europeans" is a new synonym for "Germans".
Well, back in the early 40's... it nearly was <shudder>
--
Da' Bear
"Bonnnnjoooouuurr ya cheese eating surrender-monkeys!"
-Grounds keeper Willie on properly addressing the French
rhodog
>
> I don't know what it would take to break this MYTH of Europeans wanting
> filters in their pipes.
>
> It ain't true, unless "Europeans" is a new synonym for "Germans".
>
> --
> Tarek
Right. And even the vast majority of German collectors of high grade pipes
are categorically opposed to 9mm filter chambers !
Erwub
John Hamilton McGrath
myth...;)
John
==========================
John Hamilton McGrath
Handcrafted Pipes:
http://www.pipe-works.net/
==========================
----------
In article <3e56c...@corp.newsgroups.com>, "Tarek Manadily"
Doc Elder
European carvers such as Jess, S. Bang and company, but I've spent some
serious dollars on many highly reputed European marques that were mentioned
and I'm very fond of them. I've a definite weakness for older Charatans and
I find my Dunhill's to be good smokers, but notably over-priced anywhere but
on the estate market. When I can find them in the smaller sizes I prefer,
I'm extremely fond of Don Carlos and find them good value for money. All my
Savs were good value. I hold a good many European artisans in very high
esteem.
That said, if some sinister Djin were to arise from the mysterious and
threatening gludge in my garbage disposal and tell me that I was cursed with
never being able to buy another pipe that wasn't made by Mark Tinsky...I'd
probably just shrug my shoulders, grab a beer from the fridge and go check
"Today's Work". They work for me. I'm willing to bet that there are at
least a few more American artisan's whose work I haven't yet sampled that
would elicit a similar response after I got to know their work. My sense is
that there are a good number of truly impressive artisians on both sides of
the Atlantic and I couldn't be happier for that. And the real magic depends
on that happy coincidence when the pipe-maker is on a real roll creatively
and runs into just the right bit of briar... oh, and can he find a way to
price the final result within my budget.
There are folks turning good wood into awfully pretty pieces that smoke very
nicely indeed and until such time as somebody presents evidence that the
pipemakers of the Upper Bad-guy Republic are financing atrocities against
small animals and little children, I don't see any reason to give any
serious consideration to country of origin. We get good pieces to choose
from all kinds of places. Life is good.
-Doc
--
--------
It's only the giving that makes you... what you are
.
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
fred hanna
as simple as we can but no more simple than they are. I believe that
this can be applied to the "apples and oranges" line of thinking
expressed by some in this thread. Let's not get carried away by the
convenience of the metaphor.
When it comes to smoking quality, OF COURSE you can compare high
grades! People do it all the time. Forget about the looks of the pipe,
the coating in the bowl, the cut of the lip, depth of mortise,
thickness of the wall, diameter of the draft hole and tobacco chamber
etc. etc. etc.
For the purpose of this discussion, where the rubber meets the road is
exactly where the smoke hits the tongue. For this discussion, suspend
all the engineering issues and design and aesthetic issues. The issue
here is the smoke that hits the tongue, once it leaves the bit. THAT
QUALITY CAN BE ASSESSED AND EVALUATED AND PEOPLE DO SO ALL THE TIME,
including in this very thread by some of the folks who said it's
apples and oranges.
It's not about apples and oranges, they truly are more different than
what we have here. And I believe that the inappropriate metaphor
brings with it the danger of drawing a distinction without a
difference. This is about pipes. Of course it is a very general topic
but that does not mean that we cannot speak to our experience of it.
And there's the fun....
Fred
Cigar_Bearz
wrote: Big Snip.................
>I will say it again. On the whole, I don't see a difference. How about
>you?
>
>Fred
I've been getting reacquainted with pipes after an 18 year vacation.
I began smoking pipes last November once the kid was well on her way
to the university. During November, December and January, I have
bought Dunhills, Radice, Tsuge, and a Peterson. I really had no idea
at the time of my pipe shopping spree of american pipe makers. Now
that I do, I plan to add a Tinsky and a Boswell to my collection. As
for my offshore pipes, I sincerely believe my Peterson smokes better
than my Dunhills and Tsuges while my Radice T/B is my best smoker.
While this does not respond to your question it does motivate me even
more to buy some american pipes and do my own test.
-------
Remove jackdaniels to reply
Mark Tinsky
I agree with my estemmed colleague PB that a strict apprentice
system in the US wouldn t work for artisan pipe makers. However, such
a thing did exist until not too long ago. Curt Rollar and I worked
for Jack Weinberger for years. His nephew, VIc Steinhart spun off
from him and started BOI, Briar Originals. Frank Augsberger also was
trained at Jack s . Jack learned with help from Max Schulte. Max
taught Howard, his son, who is a noted pipe repairman
Mike Kabik learned while working for Chip Ex and later started
his own brand now sadly defunct .
I believe Randy Wiley learned working for Edwards when they made
pipes.
I m not positive how Elliot Nachwalter got started but I believe
his partner Finn Mayan was trained in Europe. I know Jim cooke was
originally with Elliot .
Mike Butera and Mike Frey helped Steve Weiner along
There were some great American pipemakers from a generation ago
who learned thieir trade in the thriving pipe factories at the time.
Andre Mermet, Joe Cortegani and Tony Pesante, the fellow who did
much of the Connoissuer s work in the 80 s come to mind.
With the advent of the Internet things have changed a bit.
Information about pipemaking became readily available on line and this
has spawned a whole new generation of pipemakers, most are do -it-
yourselfers. But they readily benefited from advice and information
that could only be passed down directly before.
John EEls and myself helped Paul get started, for which he s sworn
eternal debt, which one of these days I m going to collect my share of !
I know Trever Talbert credits long time pipe maker Paul Perri for
helping him get going.
Trever, in turn, has helped many new pipemakers either directly or by
posting information that was otherwise unavailable.
Walt Devisser published information on pipe making which has helped
many also.
So while there s no formal apprentice system European style. A
system has evolved, "American style" to help talented young
pipemakers get a leg up . I guess it must be working as there seems
to be a lot of new talent in the US that is certainly challenging
the older Europeans . Competition sparks innovation and can only be a
boon for the pipe smoking community. Perhaps this is the Golden Age of
pipe makeing?
MT
hornypipe
If Jess Chonowitch or Ilsted , for reasons of their own , decided to
immigrate to the US and got naturalized as citizens , and porceeded to
persue their craft and livelihoods making pipes , would they be
American or European pipes ? ; If Mark Tinsky , or Randy Wiley
imported some briar ebauchons ( drilled and semi-finished ) from the
very workshop of say Eltang or S.Bang would the pipes be American or
Danish ? ; Is Mr. Talbert ( who is residing in France ) making
American or European pipes ? . If Castello came over and made Mr.
Bonaquisti an offer he could not refuse and the pipes out of his
workshop were brought in line to Castello's requirements and carried
the mark's identity , would they be American or European pipes ? .
Mr Hanna's question is like asking which car drives better : a
European import or a Detroit made one ! and runs on the same line of
thought in an earlier article that posited that in a blind tasting ,
or once a pipe is well broken in , there is no difference in smoking
quality between one pipe and another ; and that the difference is more
perceptual than real .
Discounting the notion that geo-political division can or could
influence the smokablity of a pipe ( my reading - or mis-reading - of
the question ), or attending to the timing of the question in the
context of recent US-European relations ; I would posit , and as
further posts testify , that pipe-smokers acquire pipes on notions
that the question askews .
A good pipe with - shall we say - high smokabillity qoutient has no
nationality : it has good workmanship , briar and its preperation ,and
most importantly the sensbility of the smoker .
Personally I enjoy the quirkiness of Lannes Johnson pipes which seem
to add to the pleasure of the smoke ; but I also respect the formalism
of a Dunhill and intuitevly feel when they would maximize smoking
pleasure .A well made pipe from a well cured block is a good pipe
regardless of who makes it , or which country it comes from .
And as far as Sophia Lauren is concerned I think she is better drilled
than a ten star General ! H
fredc...@comcast.net (fred hanna) wrote in message news:<c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com>...
jb
>So while there s no formal apprentice system European style. A
>system has evolved, "American style" to help talented young
>pipemakers get a leg up . I guess it must be working as there seems
>to be a lot of new talent in the US that is certainly challenging
>the older Europeans . Competition sparks innovation and can only be a
>boon for the pipe smoking community. Perhaps this is the Golden Age of
>pipe makeing?
>
> MT
Mark,
I have posted several times over the past two years that I truthfully
believe that we are living in the golden age of pipe creation. The
Internet has changed everything, and in this context, mostly to the
good. I see it coming down to three basic upgrades:
1. Access
2. Information
3. Competition/Innovation (your point)
I've dealt directly with pipemakers from literally all over the world
through the Internet. That never would have happened pre-Internet.
We have access to discuss ideas and issue with folks like you, Todd,
Trevor, Lee, and other pipe makers in an open forum anybody can
access. How great is that? As we see new makers perfect their
crafts, we see new materials being used, new techniques and shapes,
new design elements.
And for the nostalgic amoung us, we can still have access to the old
great pipes of the past through the estate market which has exploded
because of the Internet.
We are no longer constrained by whatever our local brick and mortar
can get their hands on.
JB
Mingkahuna
>what we have here. And I believe that the inappropriate metaphor
>brings with it the danger of drawing a distinction without a
>difference. This is about pipes. Of course it is a very general topic
>but that does not mean that we cannot speak to our experience of it.
Fred, no one has suggested that we not try and draw the distinction that you
seek. You asked a question and my response, based upon experience with both
European and North American pipes at almost all levels is that it is case of
apples and oranges and that such a generalization is way too far of an
over-generalization to be fair to individual carvers. That in and of itself is
a legitimate response and is not shortcutting or intellectual laziness (my
words, not yours). Making all things equal and then asking one to make a
distinction is virtually impossible. Things are never equal between carvers of
different nationalities or amongst carvers of the same nationality. Then you
seek to compound the problem (my reference to "apples and oranges squared") by
asking for a distinction between nationalities. Your question seeks a response
that I cannot give. But, that does not make my analysis illegitimate or
improper, it is the only way that I can answer the question based upon my
experiences, observations and approach to making the distinction that you
seek. I'm sorry that it isn't the answer that you sought, but I stand behind
it.
As to Paul and Mark's response to my comments about Danish apprenticeship, I
quite agree that such a formal system of apprenticeship is by and large
impossible in this country. This is due to our culture, economy, the size of
our country and a myriad of factors. My comments weren't aimed at suggesting
that such as system should be utilized in North America, but only to point out
that it hasn't been and that it has been used in Denmark. Further, that the
existence of this aprenticeship type of system in Denmark has had IMO a very
positive effect on the craft of pipe making in that country. As I pointed out
in my original post, there is a great consistency of quality amongst many of
the Danish artisan carvers. Further, fewer of them have had to start from
scratch as many in this country have been forced to do. The skills have been
passed down. And, this all leads to a nationality of pipes with a very strong
identity. There is a lineage and history that is continuing in nature.
But, that's not to say that there isn't some of that in North America. It is
far less formal, but as Mark pointed out many carvers have had help and support
from others Those lineages are beginning, but they are more brief and sporadic
than Denamark. But, they are identifiable all the same and are certainly
supported by the internet and contact at pipe shows. Plus, I think that there
are many new carvers who can point directly at Trever Talbert' web site as
having been a mentor of sorts. So, we do indeed have a somewhat abbreviated
apprenticeship type of thing going on in NA, but I would liken it more towards
a mentoring system due to the limitations as discussed above.
Understand that my comments aren't in any way intended to denigrate North
American carvers. As I've said, my collection consists of fine pipes from both
sides of the pond. In fact, my pipe smoking over the past three nights has
featured the work of three North American carvers whose work is the eqaul of
almost any European pipe that I've smoked, on all levels of quality. And,
tonight and tomorrow night I will be smoking Danish pipes that are the equal of
almost any NA pipe that I've ever smoked. The nationality to me is
meaningless. The pipe community has become global. There is communication and
cooperation between NA and European carvers, workshops being visited, as well
as exchanges of information and materials. Today, thanks to pipe shows such as
the Chicago show, CORPS and others we have pipe carvers of all nationalities
interacting, forming friendships and relationships that have helped to make the
distinction of nationality a bit less significant and less of a consideration.
Art
grace christian
cheers
"hornypipe" <hashi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:139db5fe.03022...@posting.google.com...
jlruble
years. When the question of competors came up, my answer was "I can't
afford competors."
" We all nee to help each other."
And, this seems to be the way our posters (pipe makers) feel. AFAIC thats
great. Keep up the good work. It helps everyone, especially us smokers
that couldn't make a pipe with a Dunhill factory.
SCOTTY
"jb" <bur...@winfirst.com> wrote in message
news:rf0f5vo03repqcdhc...@4ax.com...
Stephen B.
as the sole American benefactors of apprenticeship. Thanks for some more
history.
-Stephen B.
"Mark Tinsky" <m...@mt.net> wrote in message
news:mt-2A8142.02...@news.mt.net...
jlruble
SCOTTY
"Tony Miller" <to...@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnb5cmm...@callisto.jtan.com...
Stephen B.
my paltry and sorely lacking list of American pipe making "apprentices". I
read further and found Mark Tinsky also added to my knowledge of pipe makers
who have apprenticed.
Best,
Stephen B.
"Ian Rastall" <idra...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:791d5v81ti5hlo74e...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:54:43 -0500, "Stephen B." <mn...@netzero.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I know of only two exceptions
> >in Mark Tinsky and Elliott Nachwalter who both apprenticed first.
>
> Stephen, if I'm not mistaken, Darius Christian learned from Mark and
> Trever, and then apprenticed with J.M. Boswell. Also, I think you
> could make a case for Todd Johnson being an apprentice of, err, Tom
> Eltang?
>
> I think you're right that, in general, there is no long history of
> apprenticeship in America like there is in Europe. Hopefully that will
> change one day. Maybe Mark should start hiring other carvers.
>
> Ian
> --
> http://www.aspipes.org/
> http://www.bookstacks.org/
grace christian
started in new joisey. and thereby hangs a tale<g>
cheers
darius
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
Stephen B.
<snip>
>As for the
> perfect drilling, I think that it is important but overrated. I have
> had pipes with merely adequate drilling that smoked rings around pipes
> that were drilled perfectly.
>
> Fred
I do not have a single pipe, with "merely adequate drilling" that compares
to one with seemingly perfect drilling. Further, when I find that the pipe
gives me problems, it seems to always be an issue with the drilling.
Perhaps your pipes that are adequately drilled are comparable to my
seemingly perfect drills. The point, as relates to this thread, is how many
Americans are taking great pains to drill a perfect pipe, and that this
would seem to me to aid in the parity of the smoke as compared to their
European counterparts.
-Stephen B.
Stephen B.
consistency. How many Garbes would you need to smoke in order to compare it
accurately to Talbert?
-Stephen B.
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.03022...@posting.google.com...
fred hanna
including you in the American names I mentioned. Damn. I knew I would
forgot some folks! And it was great to hear from you, Tarek, I hope to
see you in Chicago.
As for the possibility of being truly "objective" it is of course a
tall order but let's not sell ourselves short here. We can do this.
Greg asked me to weigh in on this topic. Allow me to add to what I
wrote to Bear earlier...
I think it is quite possible to consciously and knowingly separate the
aesthetic and collecting aspects of pipes from their pure smoking
qualities. There is a method in the field of phenomenology (a
discipline of observation in philsophy and psychology that has as its
goal, seeing things as they are, apart from biases, preconceptions,
and other influences). We can never be completely "objective" of
course but using this method we can reduce such influences
significantly and to a great degree. Part of this method is called
"bracketing." It involves being aware of each of the various
influences that lead to our preference in a particular brand. If I am,
for example, caught up, captivated, if you will, by the mystique and
design of for example, Bo Nordh pipes, and I have mucho dollars tied
up in them, my powers of observation will be threatened and reduced.
My captivation with the brand will affect my perceptions and
judgments. But if I consciously and knowingly step back, suspend, and
"bracket" my biases and preferences by identifying them and putting
them temporarily aside, on the shelf if you will, in a disciplined
manner, I can become more objective and begin to see things in a more
clear and direct manner. This allows one to study the subject at hand,
without being caught up in paradigms, theories, models, cultural
interpretations, education and what have you. So... who cares if it's
a Nordh, a Chonowitsch, a Castello, a Stanwell, or a Boswell. We can
still evaluate it if we are disciplined enough to investigate and not
merely pontificate.
For example, I collect gorgeous straightgrains from the great brands,
I but in order to judge the smoking quality of those pipes, I have to
apply the phenomenological method in order to avoid thinking that just
because a gorgeous Barbi, Bang, Chonowisch, Charatan, or Castello is
astoundingly beautiful and well made, it must therefore be a fantastic
smoker. This is bullshit. If I can distinguish the smoke of a low
class Boswell from an upper class S. Bang, and find that the Boswell
smokes and tastes better, that is evidence of the possibility of such
objectivity. I have owned and smoked drop dead gorgeous expensive
straightgrains from the great brands that were terrible smokers, and
others that were merely mediocre, maybe worth about $50 as a smoker. I
WANT these pipes to smoke well but I am not going to bullshit myself
into believing. Smoking quality is just as important to me as
aesthetics and beauty and design and engineering. So I have to step
back and braket or suspend my captivation by the mystique of a
pipemaker or brand in order to be accurate in my perceptions.
In my circle of pipe loving friends, we love to do this sort of thing
by loading up pipes from the same tobacco
tin and comparing how they smoke. We pass the pipes around and compare
notes. For the purpose of this discussion, where the rubber meets the
road is exactly where the smoke hits the tongue.
To me, the issue here is the smoke that hits the tongue, not what
happens inside the pipe on the way to the tongue. For this discussion,
it seems to me that the process is less important than the end
product, which is the taste and overall smoking experience. We do
indeed have the ability to make these judgments, unless one admits
being helplessly captivated and controlled by our own beliefs, and
unable to step outside of our own, self-imposed mental limitations and
confines. I totally agree with Greg that one can convert a poor pipe
into a great one as long as the pipe has some decent wood, but I also
agree that bad (i.e., uncured or hot, bad tasting) wood will not allow
that conversion. But notice that before one even contemplates such a
conversion, one has to have already judged that the pipe in question
sucks as a smoker.
Thus, a Cooke, Tinsky, Bonaquisti, Wiley, Lewis, and others (I have
never smoked a Lindner or Butera) can smoke amazingly well, every bit
as well as the more expensive Europeans. We are not comparing
traditions, myth or mystique or pipemaking methods. We are comparing
smoke as it emerges from mouthpieces. As Paul inferred, there is a
tradition in American pipemaking that differs from European tradition.
But it's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing briar and
briar--that all comes from European sources anyway--Greece, Corsica,
Calabria, Liguria, Algeria, and so on.
Once again, the Euros have nothing on the Americans when it comes to
smoking. My conversations with Chonowitsch, Tinsky, Lewis, Cooke, and
many others lead me to believe that they agree. Rick Newcombe once
told me that Bo Nordh told him that he agrees with this perspective on
briar as well. As I write this I recall the many fantastic collectible
pipes I have owned from both sides of the ocean that left much to be
desired as smokers. I have owned Stanwells and Boswells that smoked
rings around a Barbi or Castello or Charatan or Dunhill that I have
owned. To me, it's the outcome or the end product that ultimately
matters and that, in this case, is the smoke.
Fred
Todd R Jerabek
can speak about Lee von Erck pipes. His pipes (I have three) smoke better,
right out off the shope than any other pipe I have smoked - bar none. This
includes some other US, English, Italian, and other pipe makers.
It might be the briar he gets, it might be the curing he has done. Either
way, stellar.
That said, I leave you to your regularly scheduled programing.
Todd
Stephen B.
illuminating.
-Stephen B.
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.0302...@posting.google.com...
jb
As a group, I don't think there is any difference at all in smoking
quality.
In reality, there are such differences within each group, I don't know
how there could be a significant difference. The American makers
really have very different styles, and the Euros certainly have at
least three sub-group styles all their own.
JB
jb
Todd,
I feel that way about several makers' pipes. Taking one as an
example, my Roush pipes smoke so wonderfully from the first bowl...it
is just a wonderful smoking experience. I keep hearing the cheap
Boswell vs. the expensive Bang comparison, and I think it's entirely
possible that an inexpensive pipe from any decent maker COULD be a
great smoking pipe. Now, how are we going to handicap the situation?
Is there a direct correlation between price and smoking qualities. I
think there is a correlation, but it's certainly not perfect.
For those who have purchased expensive pipes, you almost always do so
NOT purely for the smoking characteristics, but more for the asthetics
of the item. If somebody feels differently on this, please speak up.
Of course, past the asthetics and the engineering, you HOPE that it
smokes as good as it looks!
JB
Longoni Bruno
(It's the second time I try to post this message.)
Before meeting you I knew nothing about U.S.A. pipemakers.
Now I'm so interessed to ask a friend of mine, who's in U.S.A. on
business, to buy an american rusticated pipe.
I'm looking forward to use it.
Best regards
Bruno Longoni
rhodog
> But it's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing briar and
> briar--that all comes from European sources anyway--Greece, Corsica,
> Calabria, Liguria, Algeria, and so on.
>
> Once again, the Euros have nothing on the Americans when it comes to
> smoking.
> Fred
Before I make my point, I want to point out I'm not a biased European. Well,
I think I'm not. I own or have owned pipes made by Brian Ruthenberg, Jody
Davis, Michael Kabik, Tyler Lane, John Hamilton McGrath, Clarence Mickles,
Steve Weiner, Tim West, Randy Wiley, Mark Tinsky and Lee von Erck. And my
next purchase will be a Larry Roush. As I've stated before in this thread,
three of my favourite smokers are American made pipes.
As I said before in this thread, it's my experience that all in all and on
average, in each price category, European pipes still tend to be better
smokers than American ones. This is of course a generalisation and there are
exceptions, but remember I said : on average. It appears that I'm not the
only one to think that. I just read the "best buy under $100"-thread. 90% of
the brands and carvers mentioned are European.
You're absolutely right to say that when we want to compare taste and
smoking properties, in the first place we have to talk about the briar,
about its quality, its age, its curing.
Maybe what I'm going to say, is wrong or stupid. In that case, please
correct me.
It is a fact that several European brands are sitting on a huge stock of old
and very well cured briar, that several European carvers have a privileged
relationship with the briar mills and that lots of European high grade
carvers drive over to the mills to hand pick their wood. Am I wrong to
suppose that most Americans don't own a big stock of aged briar, are not
treated by for instance the Italian mill owners as VIP customers and do not
fly over to the Mediterranean to hand pick their briar ?
So would it be absurd to suppose that on average the European brands and
carvers work with better briar ?
Take the French pipes for instance. I know most Americans don't hold them in
high regard. And of course in the first place, this is due to the total lack
of serious marketing of the French brands. But these pipes, even in the
cheap range, are really excellent smokers with a great taste. Some of my
best tasting pipes are cheap Butz and Chacom pipes. Those Frenchies are
sitting on a huge stock of old and very well cured briar. It doesn't take
great skill nor a perfectionnist attitude to make decent pipes with that
wood. Some of my best tasting pipes are cheap Butz and Chacom pipes.
And there you have it : I don't particularly like the aesthetics, the
engineering, the finish, the attention to detail of those French pipes, but
boy do these pipes smoke great ! Taste is in the briar. And IMO most of the
best briar stays in Europe.
Cheers,
Erwin
Sailorman Jack
be said?
Jack
>ubject: Re: DO USA MADE PIPES SMOKE AS GOOD AS EUROPEAN PIPES?
>From: "rhodog" mo...@pandora.be
>Date: 2/23/2003 4:33 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <b3a4ho$1k0rsu$1...@ID-133914.news.dfncis.de>
Martin Farrent
> ! Taste is in the briar. And IMO most of the
> best briar stays in Europe.
Take Refbjerg, for instance. In recent years, he has spent more time
dealing in briar than making pipes (I don't know whether this is the
case at the moment). It almost goes without saying that the loot from
his trips to the Med is mostly distributed in Denmark.
Martin
fred hanna
> Before meeting you I knew nothing about U.S.A. pipemakers.
> Now I'm so interessed to ask a friend of mine, who's in U.S.A. on
> business, to buy an american rusticated pipe.
> I'm looking forward to use it.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bruno Longoni
Good luck Bruno,
Just as in Italy, there are many many great pipemakers here in the
USA. I hope you enjoy the experience.
Take care,
Fred
Stephen B.
Elliott Nachwalter, a talented American carver who is never discussed here,
is sitting on a pile of briar that he hand picked in Italy many years ago.
It can't be that he is the only American who was so inclined. There have
been pipes made here for a century or so, and it would seem that others
would have a stockpile, too.
The B&M in my area has their own brand pipes made from "100 year old briar"
and they are truly a fine smoke. There must be a few little mountains of
aging briar here, though of course most of it is still in Europe. For those
pipes made from "younger briar", perhaps we should not smoke them for a few
decades. <g>
-Stephen B.
"rhodog" <mo...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:b3a4ho$1k0rsu$1...@ID-133914.news.dfncis.de...
fred hanna
> best briar stays in Europe.
>
> Cheers,
> Erwin
Interesting points you make about French pipes, with which I have
little experience, Irwin. But when you say "taste is in the briar" I
totally agree, and this crucial point is the area we take for granted
and overlook the most.
As for the best briar staying in Europe, this does not mean that the
best TASTING briar stays in Europe. Briar is not graded for taste, but
for grain and lack of flaws. So all that briar that the Europeans are
sitting on is not necessarily the best tasting only well graded. In
addition, do we really know that the best tasting briar is the oldest?
It is after all, wood, and being an organic thing of nature wood
decomposes after a period of time. Jim Cooke says that the saps in the
wood polymerize after a period of time even after the block is
supposedly cured. What is the ideal curing time for briar? A year or
two (e.g., Boswell and Larsen)? Five to seven years (e.g., Castello)?
10 to 15 years (e.g., Moretti)? I don't know, but I think each burl,
like all things of nature, has its own uniqueness and much of that
unqueness ends up in burls that travel to America.
Fred
Len
Might not the European makers have an edge when it comes to quality
briar acquisition due to geographical proximity, linguistic/cultural
affinty, long relationships, buying clout, (think Castello as opposed
to Lone American Crafstman), etc. And if the Americans compensate by
vigorously culling from the wood they're saddled with, wouldn't this
perforce negatively impact the prices they were forced to charge?
I'm always struck in the pipe maker profiles I read by the differences
between European and North American makers, to wit:
British: Thomas Ellerby Eldridge crawled out of the slums of East
London at the age of 3 and obtained a position fetching tea for the
crafstmen at the Old Stodgy Pipe Works. After 4 years he was deemed
adept enough at tea fetching to advance to assistant floor sweeper.
After finishing his 12 hour shift, he would stay up all night carving
pipes with a butter knife that the masters at the factory had
grudgingly allowed him to use, it being too dull to cut butter with
any longer. Ultimately, at the age of 87, suffering from chronic
emphysema, he was allowed elevated to Master Maker. "'Tis the proudest
day of me life" he declared before expiring an hour later.
Danish: Jars Jelpsperson walked for eight weeks to the shop of
reclusive master Jip Jasmussen in a tiny village in North Jutland.
After apprenticing himself to Jip for 4 years he felt ready to apply
for a position at the presitigous firm of J.O. Garsen, where he
produced some of their best pipes for a decade. Striking out on his
own, he discarded everything he made for the first 8 years until he
was satisfied that the work was good enough to carry his name.
North American: "I first encountered Tom Jordan's pipes during the
summer of 2002, where, working from a kit, he won 9th prize at a
Tinder Box pipe carving competition. Already his instinctive flair for
bold shapes was evident. His rustication techniques were already far
better than the best of Dunhill and Castello. Encouraged by his
initial success, he decided to go into pipe making full time, and by
late 2002 produced the now legendary "First Batch" of pipes that were
immediately hailed by collectors as the best that had ever been made.
'There were some dark moments during the 3 weeks I spent mastering my
art, where I wondered whether I had what it takes'. Fortunately for
us, he perservered. Please inquire as to availability. Sand blasted
finishes start at $400. There is a 14 month wait."
Mingkahuna
been suggested should be done in our analysis) and do the requested bracketing,
it requires us to come to our conclusion based solely on the briar itself,
which I see as the conclusion that begged the question.
Art
Chris Keene
>A couple of thoughts:
>
>British:
>
>Danish:
>
>North American:
Please, please! I want to know about the Italians too! :)
rhodog
When I stated that IMO the best briar is stocked in Europe, I meant the best
graded briar and the best tasting briar.
Obviously I'm not a specialist and my knowledge of briar is limited. You ask
me whether it is certain that the oldest briar is the best tasting briar.
I'll reply by telling you what Marco Biagini answered to me when I asked him
the exact same question : old briar doesn't guarantee an excellent taste,
but the odds it will produce a great taste, are definitely higher.
As for the matter of air curing, several empirical data convince me that a
slow and long curing process tends to produce a great tasting pipe. As I
told you before, I'm often impressed by the great smoking properties of
pipes made in St. Claude. The big French brands like Butz-Choquin and Chacom
cure their briar in open sheds in the rather cold and certainly wet climate
of the Jura mountains. Hence, this process is slow and takes years and
years. Result : the taste I've described, even in the low end of the range.
Recently, Marco Biagini sold a pipe to me. He told me it would smoke like a
dream because not only had it been made out of very old briar, moreover the
plateau had been curing for 15 years. Believe me, the taste of this puppy is
simply stunning. It definitely is one of my sweetest tasting pipes.
Cornelius Maenz, who is used to work with high quality briar, told me last
year he found a pile of stummels in an old German pipe factory that had gone
bankrupt years ago. He was told that these were unsold stummels destined for
Dunhill. It was very old Algerian wood and it had been kept there for a few
decades. Cornelius bought all the stummels. He told me this wood produces
the best taste he ever experienced.
But again, these are not scientific facts, just observations. But convincing
ones, I think.
Cheers,
Erwin
Briarroot
>
> A couple of thoughts:
oooo, that was wicked! I loved it. <grin>
Regards,
Tim Parker ... Dorchester in a BBB square-shank billiard
Sagiter
gentleman of the jury". I just love attorney speak :-))
Neil
--
Neil Flancbaum
Craftsman
http://www.smokinholsters.com
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030223104158...@mb-fy.aol.com...
Sagiter
some of them post here and are ASP'ers., beware..... :-))
Neil
--
Neil Flancbaum
Craftsman
http://www.smokinholsters.com
"Len" <clo...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:51f6351c.03022...@posting.google.com...
jb
>NORTH "American" pipes are every bit as good as European pipes. We use the
>same material(s) and generally the same techniques. The one superior aspect
>of our pipes, is - the lack of "filter" thingies...;) Interestingly, I was
>talkin' to a European collector who includes pipes from our side of the
>great water... and he suggested that Europeans "generally" have little
>interest in our pipes. I'd hate to think this is true... maybe we should
>start doin' the filter thing...?
>
>John
JHM,
Please leave me out of your new filter fad! ;-)
I know you have a different dog in this fight than do I, but I won't
buy a filtered pipe from Germany or wherever. I've had filtered pipes
before and they don't smoke as well as non-filtered pipes...yes, it's
my opinion, not gospel fact.
The only things that will get Euros wanting American pipes is superior
quality and superior promotion. I think the quality is already there,
the promotion could be better
I also think more production would help too. Most North American pipe
carvers I know already sell a lot of what they make.
JB
jb
>Tarek Manadily wrote:
>> John, John, John...
>>
>> I don't know what it would take to break this MYTH of Europeans wanting
>> filters in their pipes.
>>
>> It ain't true, unless "Europeans" is a new synonym for "Germans".
>
>Well, back in the early 40's... it nearly was <shudder>
Funny Bear...I was thinking the exact same thing! ;-0
Yes, the Italians, English, French, etc. aren't enamored of the
filters. Smart folks.
JB
jb
JB
hashi...@hotmail.com (hornypipe) wrote:
>Dear Mr Hanna et al ;
>If Jess Chonowitch or Ilsted , for reasons of their own , decided to
>immigrate to the US and got naturalized as citizens , and porceeded to
>persue their craft and livelihoods making pipes , would they be
>American or European pipes ? ; If Mark Tinsky , or Randy Wiley
>imported some briar ebauchons ( drilled and semi-finished ) from the
>very workshop of say Eltang or S.Bang would the pipes be American or
>Danish ? ; Is Mr. Talbert ( who is residing in France ) making
>American or European pipes ? . If Castello came over and made Mr.
>Bonaquisti an offer he could not refuse and the pipes out of his
>workshop were brought in line to Castello's requirements and carried
>the mark's identity , would they be American or European pipes ? .
>Mr Hanna's question is like asking which car drives better : a
>European import or a Detroit made one ! and runs on the same line of
>thought in an earlier article that posited that in a blind tasting ,
>or once a pipe is well broken in , there is no difference in smoking
>quality between one pipe and another ; and that the difference is more
>perceptual than real .
>Discounting the notion that geo-political division can or could
>influence the smokablity of a pipe ( my reading - or mis-reading - of
>the question ), or attending to the timing of the question in the
>context of recent US-European relations ; I would posit , and as
>further posts testify , that pipe-smokers acquire pipes on notions
>that the question askews .
>A good pipe with - shall we say - high smokabillity qoutient has no
>nationality : it has good workmanship , briar and its preperation ,and
>most importantly the sensbility of the smoker .
>Personally I enjoy the quirkiness of Lannes Johnson pipes which seem
>to add to the pleasure of the smoke ; but I also respect the formalism
>of a Dunhill and intuitevly feel when they would maximize smoking
>pleasure .A well made pipe from a well cured block is a good pipe
>regardless of who makes it , or which country it comes from .
>And as far as Sophia Lauren is concerned I think she is better drilled
>than a ten star General ! H
Tarek Manadily
Bruto Sordini started making pipes when he was twenty years of age; at that
point, he was studying law and wanted to work a part-time job to earn
something on the side. Having had a particular passion for wood working, he
got a job as an apprentice to an old village pipe maker who, with the
passing of the years, taught Bruto the secrets of a good hand made pipe.
After the old man died (at the age of 96, having made his last pipe only two
years earlier), Bruto started working with other pipe makers, one after the
other over many years. Before he started making pipes on his own, he had
already worked for years with some of the most famous and prestigious pipe
establishments in the Pesaro region, well known for its pipe making
tradition. Prior to the founding of the Don Carlos company, Bruto had
joined in a pipe making partnership with a friend, but later set out on his
own. 12 years ago, the Don Carlos name was born and the company founded.
Bruto is a great lover of classical music, especially operas, and which is
why he chose the name of a famous opera character for his company.
--
Tarek
PS: if you hit reply, you'll never reach me ;-) Just check the spelling of
my name before the "@".
--@--
~Home of High Grade Italian Pipes
~ http://www.theitalianpipe.com/
"Chris Keene" <clk...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:darh5v0df3bagj6er...@4ax.com...
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Stephen B.
skyscrapers nor does it beg the fundamental questions of life... it's a
pipe.
"Artisans" come to their "craft" from any different beginnings and achieve
any results that they might be capable of through any means they happen to
endeavor to get there, because it is a pipe and not a complex organism.
There is no telling where the next gifted craftsman may come from and while
hard work and pride are commendable and will certainly yield results, they
alone are not the only roads to excellence. There is also that unknown
quality that has always been perceived as a special gift. That single
ingredient can be born anywhere and show it's lovely face any time.
-Stephen B.
"Len" <clo...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:51f6351c.03022...@posting.google.com...
Cheryl
>Cannot speak about all the pipes you have listed by US makers, however, I
>can speak about Lee von Erck pipes. His pipes (I have three) smoke better,
>right out off the shope than any other pipe I have smoked - bar none. This
>includes some other US, English, Italian, and other pipe makers.
>
>It might be the briar he gets, it might be the curing he has done. Either
>way, stellar.
Todd, I'm probably a tad biased at the moment, but I will agree with you
in a heartbeat. The very first bowls in my von-Erck smoked like a
well-broken in pipe. There was *absolutely* no break in ... none, nada,
period. Filled to the top and smoked it over and over the first day with
my current favorite tobacco. This tobacco has never tasted this good
before - and it's not just the churchwarden stem - the short stem is
equally good (just not as much fun).
And for some reason I don't understand, the durn thing has already caked
beautifully, even at the bottom. (Yeah, I'm smoking it a lot) It's also
the *first* pipe I've ever owned that I didn't have to smoke some short
bowls, or at least shake the ashes to start the bottom cake.
Part of this no breaking in has to be in the oil-curing. But I've broken
in other pipes that were oil cured (and they ARE a lot easier and better
to break in, IMHO), but none _ever_ smoked as good as this one. I am a
total convert.
I don't think you can compare pipemakers by country. I have Danish,
Italian, English, Canadian, French, other Americans, and plenty of
unknowns. Both factory and handmade. If I look at my best smokers, the
ones I automatically reach for, they are from all over - not
representative of any particular country. (except for the von Erck <g>)
I think it depends on the briar, what they do with it, the engineering,
the comfort, etc. I also think that for most of us, *everything else
being equal*, aesthetics, artistry and sentiment also play a role.
People all over the world usually tend to think that something foreign is
better. Some American pipemakers are selling very well overseas, just
like the Danish sell well over here. In business, an expert is simply
someone from more than 500 miles away. I think it's the same with
pipes... It depends on the individual pipemaker ... not the country of
origin.
JMHO,
Cheryl
Chris Keene
<te...@theitalianpipe.com> wrote:
>If I may, Len!
>
>Bruto Sordini started making pipes when he was twenty years of age; at that
>point, he was studying law and wanted to work a part-time job to earn
>something on the side. Having had a particular passion for wood working, he
>got a job as an apprentice to an old village pipe maker who, with the
>passing of the years, taught Bruto the secrets of a good hand made pipe.
>After the old man died (at the age of 96, having made his last pipe only two
>years earlier), Bruto started working with other pipe makers, one after the
>other over many years. Before he started making pipes on his own, he had
>already worked for years with some of the most famous and prestigious pipe
>establishments in the Pesaro region, well known for its pipe making
>tradition. Prior to the founding of the Don Carlos company, Bruto had
>joined in a pipe making partnership with a friend, but later set out on his
>own. 12 years ago, the Don Carlos name was born and the company founded.
>Bruto is a great lover of classical music, especially operas, and which is
>why he chose the name of a famous opera character for his company.
Considering it's fact-based, very good. Possibly archetypical (or
maybe simply typical?).
For the generic version of the Italians, though, I would expect a few
splits and mergers, as well as more familial connections between
companies. <g>
Thanks, Tarek. I hope Bruto is recovering well.
-Chris
James D. Beard
>>>From: "mdromero" mdrom...@msis.net
>>>I tend to favor American carvers over European carvers, JM Boswell being my
>>>current favorite, I don't like anything Italian made.
>>>Marc
>>
>>Sophia Loren.
>>SJ
>
> But is she "drilled properly"?
> -Tony
Yes. More than once.
Cheers!
jim b.
--
Unix is not user-unfriendly; it merely
expects users to be computer-friendly.
Todd M. Johnson
1. As to the superiority of wood collected by European carvers, I will say
this. A number of American carvers also have relationships with the briar
cutters that ensure our acquisition of the finest quality wood. Some of us
have been to the mills and hand selected wood for our personal use. Others
purchase wood directly from European master carvers. Still others have
liasons (Italian in my case) who go regularly to the mills to select wood
for them. The liasons then import it into the United States with a ready
buyer. I can say with certainty that there is a sharing of wood between the
following carvers in various ways: Bo Nordh, E. Andrew, Bertram Safferling,
Teddy Knudsen, Jody Davis, Tom Eltang, Jess Chonowitsch, Per and Ulf, Walt
Cannoy, Michael Lindner, and myself. As to the age of the wood, most of the
European carvers who are said to be sitting on centuries old piles of briar
will tell you that wood needs to air cure for a few years and then it is
perfect for making pipes, Period. I have dry wood (3-7 yrs.) and 50 year
old wood alike. I've sent pieces to some of the most knowledgable
collectors in the world , one made from the old stuff, and another made
from the newer pile. I've yet to find a collector who could tell the
difference. There are simply too many variables in an organic material for
it to be reduced to "older wood=a better smoke." Additionally there is very
little one can know about the particular internals of a block by looking at
two very rough-hewn sides of said block. Therefore even the idea of
European carvers picking over the briar at the mill in order to find the
best tasting, cleanest blocks is a bit misplaced. They're looking for
straight tight grain. Its existence on the outer surface of a block is no
indicator either of how clean the block might be, or how "sweet" it will
taste.
2. As to a comparison of European made pipes vs. American made pipes, I
will agree with Art and say it is an impossible comparison to make. The
variables are too numerous. Even if for example, European Collector X says
"I own pipes from a dozen U.S. carvers and a Canadian carver I've lumped in
with them, and I still say that in general European pipes smoke better,"
it's still a bogus comparison. Are we comparing the limited experience of
European Collector X with American pipes to his much more extensive
experience with European pipes? Are we comparing 5 average American carvers
with 10 spectacular European carvers? Are we comparing 20 mediocre European
carvers with the 5 best American carvers? Who knows? This is like asking if
American cars are better than cars produced in the rest of the civilized
world. Are we going to compare the Ford Contour to the Mercedes 800SL? Are
we going to compare the Cadilac Escalade to the Kia Sephia? America has
"the big three," while the rest of the world has the big 30. It's an unfair
comparison.
3. As to the process that European carvers go through before carving pipes
independently versus the process that American carvers go through before
carving pipes independently, I will say this. We do not have a guild system
in America. If we did, I believe that far more trades would survive by
being passed down from a master craftsman to an apprentice. I also believe
that more young and aspiring tradesmen would line up to learn at the feet
of the masters. Since, however, this is not a possibility, it becomes
necessary to completely submerge oneself in the desired craft instead of
wading in slowly and gradually. A satirical case has been made that
European carvers have to suffer years of tedious and menial labor before
ever striking out on their own, while American carvers grab a pipe kit and
start charging $400/pipe right away. By the same token a case could be made
that European carvers have the trumendous advantage of drawing on a long
history of skills and techniques that are revealed and taught to them
during a formal apprenticeship while American carvers must grope their way
along in the dark, expiramenting for themselves, learning from their own
mistakes, and emerging essentially self-taught. I'm not saying that either
is better, but only that both are noble in their own way and should not be
viewed askance.
Surprisingly, I have heard little mention in this thread of Kent Rasmussen.
He did not spend long years sweeping up briar dust before working for W.O.
Larsen and then striking out onto his own at the age of 96. He drew upon
the skills of his former trade and applied them to a new medium, becoming
adept and skillful at a surprisingly rapid pace. He learned from Teddy, and
admired and was inspired by his pipes trumendously. Yet I've never heard
him denounced for appearing on the scene with high prices having never
"paid his dues." The simple fact is that Kent makes *spectacular* pipes and
if you want one you've got to pay what he's asking. His prices are not an
affront to Teddy, the man simply has to make a living.
4. As to the factors that make a great smoking pipe a great smoking pipe, I
think wood is secondary or tersiery. First is engineering. If a pipe is
engineered properly and made of dry wood, it should smoke well period. The
draft hole should be large enough you don't have to bust a blood vessel in
your head trying to draw on it. The airhole through the stem should be
tapered and then fan out at the button end. The tenon should be champfered
and bottom out in the mortise with no gap. The draft hole daimeter should
be nearly continuous from the heel of the bowl to the tip of the button.
The draft hole diameter should also be well paired with a) the length of
the pipe, b) the diameter and type (cylindrical or conical) of chamber, and
c) the depth of the chamber.
Second is the match between the pipe, the smoker, and the tobacco. If
you're smoking flake in a stack chimney and wonder why you're not getting
an effortless draw, it may not be the pipe.
Third is wood. It needs to be thoroughly dry. Given the combination of
these factors, I don't care if a pipe is made in France, Japan, or Iowa it
should be not just a good or decent smoker, but an *excellent* smoker.
Sorry this is so long, but I thought it better to post an essay than 10
responses to 10 different posts.
Best Regards,
Todd
STOA Briars
www.stoabriars.com
John Hamilton McGrath
==========================
John Hamilton McGrath
Handcrafted Pipes:
http://www.pipe-works.net/
==========================
----------
In article <ggsh5vs7guddvojoc...@4ax.com>, jb
<bur...@winfirst.com> wrote:
Hey! I've got a GREAT idea...!
Why don't all us North American pipemakers get together - and send 1 pipe
each to Trever in France. Too display a good cross section of NA pipes in
his store? Talk 'bout "superior promotion" ;)
John
fred hanna
<snip>
> Recently, Marco Biagini sold a pipe to me. He told me it would smoke like a
> dream because not only had it been made out of very old briar, moreover the
> plateau had been curing for 15 years. Believe me, the taste of this puppy is
> simply stunning. It definitely is one of my sweetest tasting pipes.
> Cornelius Maenz, who is used to work with high quality briar, told me last
> year he found a pile of stummels in an old German pipe factory that had gone
> bankrupt years ago. He was told that these were unsold stummels destined for
> Dunhill. It was very old Algerian wood and it had been kept there for a few
> decades. Cornelius bought all the stummels. He told me this wood produces
> the best taste he ever experienced.
>
> But again, these are not scientific facts, just observations. But convincing
> ones, I think.
>
> Cheers,
> Erwin
Very interesting, Erwin. I have owned my share of Morettis and they
do smoke great and Marco Biagini makes a great pipe, and I think he
makes some of the most interesting pipes around. But as good as they
are, I don't think they are superior to all other brands in pure
smoking quality.
Similar to your example of Cornelius Maenz, I had a long conversation
with Clarence Mickles who told me that the briar he used (this was
perhaps a year before he died, RIP) was acquired from a stockpile of
Algerian briar used in the old Mastercraft (I could be wrong on this)
factory that had long been out of business. We all know that Clarence
Mickles pipes smoked great as well. But were Clarence's pipes better
smokers than all other American pipes, and most all European pipes,
for that matter because of this? They were and are great, and in the
same league, but I think not.
I completely understand your view of European pipes and their
stockpiles. Your point is a good one. We just disagree on a subject
that is highly difficult to verify empirically. In the case of such
discussions, I find it utterly fascinating that the viewpoints can be
so convincing and at the same time so diverse.
Fred
grace christian
it was very interesting to read what you wrote. likewise it was interesting
what fred and greg wrote, and many pitched in.
i am reading what everybody has opined. it would be impossible to say who
is right. either i can lean towards some theories, or just take in the whole
cosmos as it is. one good thing happening is that i am learning, that
learning never stops.
one thing is sure. lady briar has stumped us over and over, and she won't
stop<g>.
all i can say to every theory is "not always so". to that , i'm sure
everyone will agree<g>
cheers
darius
www.grc-pipes.com
"Todd M. Johnson" <tmjo...@samford.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns932BA4C46D5...@65.32.1.8...
fred hanna
> todd,
> it was very interesting to read what you wrote. likewise it was interesting
> what fred and greg wrote, and many pitched in.
> i am reading what everybody has opined. it would be impossible to say who
> is right. either i can lean towards some theories, or just take in the whole
> cosmos as it is. one good thing happening is that i am learning, that
> learning never stops.
> one thing is sure. lady briar has stumped us over and over, and she won't
> stop<g>.
> all i can say to every theory is "not always so". to that , i'm sure
> everyone will agree<g>
> cheers
> darius
> www.grc-pipes.com
Amen to that, Darius--especially the part about always learning. It
always amazes me how complex the subject of smoking a pipe actually
is, and how many varying opinions there can be, and how simple it
seems on the surface.
Fred
jb
>Hey! I've got a GREAT idea...!
>
>Why don't all us North American pipemakers get together - and send 1 pipe
>each to Trever in France. Too display a good cross section of NA pipes in
>his store? Talk 'bout "superior promotion" ;)
>
>John
John, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. One of the
problems of this form of communication. Where your idea has merit is
the more the European community gets to see the American pipes in
person, the more demand there will be. Can that be in question?
JB
jb
>It appears that I'm not the
>only one to think that. I just read the "best buy under $100"-thread. 90% of
>the brands and carvers mentioned are European.
All of the Best Buy under $100 pipes are machine made pipes. We don't
have the big production houses over here. Fred's question wasn't who
makes the best smoking inexpensive pipe.
>And there you have it : I don't particularly like the aesthetics, the
>engineering, the finish, the attention to detail of those French pipes, but
>boy do these pipes smoke great ! Taste is in the briar. And IMO most of the
>best briar stays in Europe.
I would tend to agree that the best of the best briar probably does
stay in Europe. However, NONE of that best briar is used in the under
$100 pipes. I would guess that a small American maker can still lay
his hands on very good briar, but perhaps not the "best". Once again,
does this indicate a "better smoke"? Probably not.
>Cheers,
>Erwin
>
Cheers back to ya! ;-)
JB
jb
>Surprisingly, I have heard little mention in this thread of Kent Rasmussen.
>He did not spend long years sweeping up briar dust before working for W.O.
>Larsen and then striking out onto his own at the age of 96.
Kent looks damn good for a man of this age! Wow...I have even more
respect for this guy's work now! ;-)
Seriously, Rasmussen doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves when
the great carvers are brought up. Kent's pipes are artistically equal
to any others and they are always flawless in execution.
JB
Mingkahuna
>the great carvers are brought up. Kent's pipes are artistically equal
>to any others and they are always flawless in execution.
>
>JB
I couldn't agree more.
Art
grace christian
organic wood with two hole meeting can be so complex and mystifying.
every smoker and maker opines with his/her experience and every experience
will have a variable to it. if you look at it with an open mind, the points
of learning are incredible. it reminds me of chess move permutations<g>.
i'll be damned if this thing ever stops. if it ever did....life would not
be interesting!
cheers
darius
www.grc-pipes.com
"fred hanna" <fredc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c35a85a2.03022...@posting.google.com...
grace christian
to marketing? it is so true that when you compare some makers pipes to the
great masters, you find an equal, BUT, fame is still not in perspective.
i'm glad we smoke pipes. it's a never ending enigma<g>
cheers
darius
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224114116...@mb-mk.aol.com...
ip...@ptd.net
that has no particular grain quality. To know and appreciate it takes time,
and I have a feeling that if people didn't see a brand name stamped on the
wood, they wouldn't know if they were buying a good pipe.
-Marty Pulvers, TOBACCONIST(rtda retailer magazine), Feb., 2003.
For me a name on a pipe tells me who selected the wood. I'm not particularly
interested nomenclature beyond that. For example, if I show pride in a
Tinsky, or a Christian, it's because I know of his dedication to the total
process, not merely because he puts his name on it. As I peruse a pipeshop
display, I look for preferred style first, then an identifying name that
will give me some instant history. European, American, or Wyoming, are of no
consequence.
What if MT or, mio fratello, Dario C. decided to pick up and move to Europe.
Are these now European pipes? Wonder how they'll smoke now.
A few years ago one of the nearby small towns had their annual Polish
festival. A local cigar shop sponsored a roller. So there it was: A Cuban
roller, rolling Nicaraguan tobacco, in a Northeastern Pa. Polish community.
What the hell would you call those?? How 'bout "a good smoke".
What does it matter?
Nizo
Todd M. Johnson
news:6ngk5vkuhkko8g9ed...@4ax.com:
Agreed Brad, and I don't think age, number of years of experience, pricing,
or any other factor should detract from that. Obviously I'm biased though.
Todd
Trever Talbert
>
>Why don't all us North American pipemakers get together - and send 1 pipe
>each to Trever in France. Too display a good cross section of NA pipes in
>his store? Talk 'bout "superior promotion" ;)
>
>John
This is already under works, and I hope to have an outstanding display of
North American pipes here in our shop by next Christmas, if not earlier. I
will be promoting them in the EU as best I can.
Happy Smoking,
Trever Talbert
http://www.talbertpipes.com
grace christian
is it that the market wont let him stand where he needs to? there is a lot
of collector market issues that makes a veritable gauntlet for a true master
to pass.
it seems unfair.....but he is one of those pipemakers who should be at the
top.
cheers
darius
"Mingkahuna" <mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030224134316...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> >buzz....regarding rasmussen.....there's another variable.....maybe
related
> >to marketing? it is so true that when you compare some makers pipes to
the
> >great masters, you find an equal, BUT, fame is still not in perspective.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to say "marketing" as I think that it
takes
> time to build a reputation. Kent is still somewhat of a newcomer compared
to
> many who are considered the "masters." The type of recognition that I'm
> talking about only comes with time and a reputation that is built upon
many,
> many satisfied customers. But, that being said, based upon where Kent is
in
> his craft (I put him among the best pipe makers on the planet in many
aspects)
> I don't think that his reputation has yet completely caught up. Actually,
not
> by a longshot. I marvel when I look at his work. The execution is often
as
> close to flawless as anything I've ever seen. And these aren't simple
shapes.
>
> But, I've always sensed Kent to be a patient man, so I'm not concerned.
>
> I find the use of the word "market' to be an interesting choice. I really
> wonder how much any pipe maker really markets his work, or, how much he
really
> can. He may choose others such as dealers and distributors to do so for
him,
> but I wonder how much any pipe maker actively markets his work. Once a
pipe
> maker, or any artisan for that matter (even a lowly tamper maker) takes
the job
> of marketing upon himself he runs the risk of appearing arrogant by
properly
> doing the job that he should be doing (that which someone else would do fo
r
> him) in marketing his own wares. Hell, I look at my own web page and the
front
> page starts out "Since 1998 Ming-Kahuna has provided pipe smokers with
the
> finest in pipe smoking accessories." Believe me, I anguished even over
saying
> something like that that is fairly safe (even though I will soon change it
as
> to the word "finest"). Yet, a dealer or distributor might say something
far
> more laudatory in selling my work.
>
> So how much and in what manner can a pipe maker or artisan market his/her
own
> work without becoming subject to criticism for arrogance or conceit?
>
> Art
>
Mingkahuna
>is it that the market wont let him stand where he needs to?
Darius, its hard to say. Right now is kind of a tough time with higher end
pipes a bit tougher of a sell, but everyone is in the same boat. On the
positive side, I've recently heard that a particular group of collectors who
have somewhat "discovered" Kent for themselves, so that will be good for him.
I count Kent among my friends and want to see him get all of the accollades and
success that he deserves. He's got a heck of a good start being very well
respected amongst high end collectors.
I see myself adding at least another two Kents this year, the first of which
will hopefully be in Chicago. If he comes with a bent ukelele (the more bent
the better) I will have no resistance whatsoever ) Figure out how to put a
flippy tail on it like that squash apple and I'm in heaven.
Art
jb
Absolutely not! There are ample examples of excellent pipe carvers
who are young and haven't been doing it forever! Any artistic
endeavor is driven by an individual's training and natural gifts. Of
course, there must be a threshold level of facility with the mechanics
of what must be done, but I can point to several older gentlemen who
have been carving pipes for longer than I've been alive (believe it or
not) who can't (or won't) match what some of the better younger
carvers produce.
JB
fred hanna
> A great pipe needn't be expensive. A great pipe can be a well-executed pipe
> that has no particular grain quality. To know and appreciate it takes time,
> and I have a feeling that if people didn't see a brand name stamped on the
> wood, they wouldn't know if they were buying a good pipe.
> -Marty Pulvers, TOBACCONIST(rtda retailer magazine), Feb., 2003.
Thanks for relaying this quote, Nizo.
HAH!!! That Marty Pulvers is a stitch!
Fred