Fallacy of the Importance of the "Pipe Cleaner Test"
Charles Perry
pipe to pass the "pipe cleaner test" in some way indicates that the pipe is
flawed. This is far from true. Some pipe shapes simply cannot be made to
pass the test. Some pipes, such as Peterson system pipes, are designed not
to pass the test. The fact that a pipe passes the "pipe cleaner test" just
means that if it turns out to be a bad pipe (a wet smoker) that you will
have some recourse (using pipe cleaners to compensate for the problem). If
the pipe is a good smoker (nice and dry) you will have no need for a pipe
cleaner while smoking, thus no need for the pipe to pass "the test".
Some of my best smoking pipes do not pass "the test". I have a wonderful
BBB bent bulldog that I have smoked for almost 10 years. The shank is
drilled with an underbore, much like a Peterson System pipe, and thus will
not pass a cleaner with the stem in place. Do I consider this pipe flawed?
NO! It smokes great.
I have also had pipes that pass "the test" with flying colors and smoke like
crap: wet, hot, nasty tasting. My conclusion is that a pipe that passes the
test only ensures me that if the pipe is a bad smoker, I may be able to
salvage it by using pipe cleaners during the smoke. Passing "the test" in
no way guarantees a good smoker.
Flame away.
Charles Perry P.E.
rkzenrage
had pipes that passed and did not smoke well and some that smoke great
and do not pass.
I love pipes that have stingers, so this will tell you what I think of
"The Test".
What can possibly be the comparison between smoke and a cleaner? Never
made sense to me.
Namaste'
Robert
mingk...@aol.com
I agree.
Art
Stephen E. Williamson
The pipe cleaner test is rarely on my list of things to look for.
Justin Holmes
equal, I'd rather have it pass than not. I tend to smoke pretty wet
regardless of the pipe, so it is handy for me.
Dock J.Perry
In the gentleman's defense who you're directing this thread at,I
believe he has a valid point.My pipes that pass a cleaner easily DO in
fact smoke better than those that don't.Like noticeable fills,I believe
this is something that should be disclosed in a pipe's description by
the seller...
Cheers, D.Perry
ASP Since Fall 01
R.I.P. Tom Dunn
www.shpcboston.org
Bill
Dock J.Perry wrote:
> Charles,
> In the gentleman's defense who you're directing this thread at,I
> believe he has a valid point.My pipes that pass a cleaner easily DO in
> fact smoke better than those that don't.Like noticeable fills,I believe
> this is something that should be disclosed in a pipe's description by
> the seller...
Especially meerschaums.
mingk...@aol.com
> this is something that should be disclosed in a pipe's description by
> the seller...
>
> Cheers, D.Perry
> ASP Since Fall 01
> R.I.P. Tom Dunn
> www.shpcboston.org
I agree with this also. While I do not find the passing of a pipe
cleaner to be a big issue, there are a substantial number of people
who do care very much, and as such it is very material to their
decision whether to buy a pipe, and therefore should be disclosed.
Fallacy or not, it is a commonly enough held belief that disclosure is
called for. It's not that big a deal for a seller to do a check.
Art
mingk...@aol.com
On the other hand, if passing a cleaner is that important the buyer
should make the inquiry himself.
I suppose the question is whether it is acceptable to assume that
passing a cleaner is the norm for all pipes. Is it? In that case only
a departure from the norm would require a disclosure.
Not necessarily a clear call (assuming there is a controversy
underlying this as has been suggested.)
Art
Charles Perry
"Dock J.Perry" <doc...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1142554908.3...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Actually it was directed at the group, not one individual.
As for disclosure, I sure don't see that as needed. If the buyer cares that
much, they should ask. Should sellers have to disclose whether or not the
tenon bottoms out? Some consider this very important. Or should they
disclose the exact diameter of the smoke hole? Some are awfully picky about
that also. As you can see, there are many characteristics of pipes that
some consider important, and others do not. Who is to decide the correct
list that should be disclosed? This is truly a case where the importance of
a characteristic by a buyer should guide him/her to ask the appropriate
questions before purchasing.
At least that is how I see it.
Charles Perry P.E.
Fred
Charles writes:
The fact that a pipe passes the "pipe cleaner test" just
means that if it turns out to be a bad pipe (a wet smoker) that you
will have some recourse (using pipe cleaners to compensate for the
problem). If
the pipe is a good smoker (nice and dry) you will have no need for a
pipe cleaner while smoking, thus no need for the pipe to pass "the
test".
I agree with you on this one... I probably have a
different method of 'the test' than most pipesters.
If I can get a pipe cleaner to pass thru the stem and
the shank of the bowl while the two are seperated,
then I feel that this is a success. Since I only smoke
meers, it follows that I do not need some moisture
well or recovery system. If I can clean it, then I'm
happy. I don't worry about a meer being a bad smoker.
All that I have a great smokers. Briar is different and
I am better off listening than comenting on this topic.
Fred
desert smoker
"There are people on this newsgroup who seem to believe that the
failure of a
pipe to pass the "pipe cleaner test" in some way indicates that the
pipe is
flawed. This is far from true. Some pipe shapes simply cannot be made
to
pass the test. Some pipes, such as Peterson system pipes, are designed
not
to pass the test."
Ah, "the test"...do you by some chance mean me? If you recall, or
not, as the case may be, I posted a similar thread some time ago,
expressing my consternation that my Ranier Barbi pipe could not pass a
pipe cleaner. Mr. Barbi jumped in to answer that if I would send the
pipe to him, he would rectify the situation. Was I upset about a $400+
pipe,
you bet I was.
Was he trying to make an owner of one of his great pipes happy, or
did he realize there was a problem? I believe the latter.
True, by their very nature, some pipes cannot pass "the test"...oom
pauls, for example, and many full bents. But, as far as I'm concerned,
a 1/8 bent has no excuse, except either faulty design, or execution.
As for Petersons, I couldn't say. I own two,a Supreme and a
Rosslare, neither of which are system pipes.
Finally, if you have something to say to me, I would appreciate the
simple courtesy
of being addressed directly. It's just a simple matter of manners, you
know.
Marty
Charles Perry
"desert smoker" <pierr...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1142558741.9...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
group, as I said "people, not person". You are not the first, nor will be
the last, to post regarding the "importance" of the pipe cleaner test.
My BBB that does not pass "the test" is a 1/8 bent. Still doesn't make it a
bad pipe as it smokes great.
As for manners, perhaps you should address reading comprehension first.
Charles Perry P.E.
Steven Fowler
will not pass a cleaner would not be found in my rotation. Since all
my pipes pass cleaners, I wonder how one cleans their pipes that don't
pass a cleaner. Do they break them apart? Surely not. I only break
my pipes down once or twice a year for a thorough cleaning. How does
Cavicchi do it? All his pipes pass cleaners to my knowledge, even Oom
Pauls. It ain't by accident. He thinks it's important, obviously.
He's a slow smoking champion. He knows a little about pipe smoking.
There are some pipe makers who don't smoke pipes. I'll bet they're the
ones who make pipes that don't pass the cleaner test.
Steven
Dock J.Perry
I guess I interpreted this post as being a response to one that you
commented on yesterday from a fellow ASP'er who said that they'd never
again purchase a pipe "sight unseen"...
At least that is how I saw it.
mythdoc
I, too, would not wish to buy a pipe that didn't pass the test. That,
tight draws, and bad drills are big no-no's for me. It's just what I
want to spend my money on. The more I have smoked, the more precise
engineering enters into it for me.
Glenn
desert smoker
"As for manners, perhaps you should address reading comprehension
first."
Why, of course, I do have trouble with reading comprehension. You
should learn to be more kind to folks that don't have your education. I
mean people like you who have had the advantages of years and years of
education, shouldn't try to make fun of us folks who haven't had your
good fortune.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Maj. Richard H. Blount (OHMR Ret.)
how many scrubby pipe cleaners before it will pass a pipe cleaner without it
coming out black and yucky. This one was truly awful. Plugged actually. I
dislodged a hunk of something with 120psi then it took 5 or 6 scrubbing
sessions before a dry cleaner could pass without discoloration. The bowl had
so much cake I couldn't insert the reamer, so I used Mr. Dremel to do the
job. All for and old Comoy.
So.. For me the pipe cleaner test equates to the 'white glove test' of yore.
(Now that we use CLP no weapon in the arsenal will pass that test)
rich
Charles Perry
<snip>
> You should be ashamed of yourself.
You miss-read a post and question my manners, yet I am to be ashamed?
Charles Perry P.E.
desert smoker
"You miss-read a post and question my manners, yet I am to be ashamed?"
Ah, I see. Now I can't read. You must understand that not all of us are
Professional Engineers, and can keep up with your lines of reasoning.
I myself didn't do very well in math, so there's no P.E. after my name.
It's sad, but I just didn't have the aptitude.
Can we end this nonsense now?
Charles Potter
>
> Actually it was directed at the group, not one individual.
>
> As for disclosure, I sure don't see that as needed. If the buyer cares that
> much, they should ask. Should sellers have to disclose whether or not the
> tenon bottoms out? Some consider this very important. Or should they
> disclose the exact diameter of the smoke hole? Some are awfully picky about
> that also. As you can see, there are many characteristics of pipes that
> some consider important, and others do not. Who is to decide the correct
> list that should be disclosed? This is truly a case where the importance of
> a characteristic by a buyer should guide him/her to ask the appropriate
> questions before purchasing.
>
> At least that is how I see it.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.
>
>
smoke hole, or air way as some call it, is because they have learned
that with a properly drilled pipe (nice open draw), a cleaner is seldom
necessary during the smoke. Often a nice big hole in the shank will lead
to a very small hole in the tenon, and it's at this point that there
will be a lot of condensation. If a pipe smoker buys a good set of
drills he can turn many wet smoking pipes into great smokers, with just
a little practice. This is something that I have learned, and believe
me, it works.
Charles
Charles Perry
"Charles Potter" <cpotte...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:dvd9o5$p6m$1...@news.datemas.de...
And I don't disagree with you. The question is, "what should sellers
automatically disclose?". Most sellers don't even have the ability to
measure the draft hole.
Charles Perry P.E.
Bill Burney
Whew! Glad to see the responses to this post were up to our pre-Chicago
standards.
I agree and disagree on this subject. I agree that passing the cleaner
test is not a good test of how well a pipe will smoke. And I agree that
some pipe styles are very difficult or impossible to make in a way that
they will pass a cleaner. And a wet smoking pipe (or an improperly
packed or smoked pipe) is not made better by being able to use a
cleaner, only more tolerable.
One point, though: some tobaccos I smoke tend to clog the bore. I know
that I could sift the dust out before packing, but I don't. It doesn't
happen that often, but sometimes a small fleck of tobacco will be sucked
right into the stem. Being able to shove it back with a cleaner without
dismantling the pipe seems rather convenient to me. Just thought I'd
point out a situation that requires being able to insert a pipe cleaner
all the way into the bowl that can't be blamed on wet smoking, poor
engineering, bad briar, poor smoking techniques, poor packing
techniques, overly humidified or flavored tobaccos.
Now, whether the cleaner test is a deal breaker for me on a high-end
pipe, particularly one that logically *should* pass it...could be. It
would depend on the situation and how much I liked the pipe. I figure
that any high quality straight or up to quarter bent pipe that is not a
difficult design should reasonably be expected to pass a cleaner. In
this context a "difficult" design would be perhaps a freehand or some of
the more creative artsy designs. A billiard, apple, dublin, etc. that
is not like the Pete systems, or whatever that brand was that channeled
the smoke through the stem something like three times (the name escapes
me at the moment) and has no hardware like a stinger should pass a
cleaner. Why wouldn't it?
The one pipe I own which fits that last description, but doesn't pass a
cleaner is a small quarter bent. I've come to the conclusion that the
mortise was drilled too deep and there is a quarter-inch gap between the
end of the tenon and the mortise bottom. This will hang a cleaner
nearly every time. And, yes, it's a great smoker and my favorite pipe,
but it was not a very expensive pipe and it really should pass the test.
Would I buy it again? Yes. Would I buy it for $300? No.
Bill "just my take - YMMV" Burney
Charles Potter
>>hole, or air way as some call it, is because they have learned that with a
>>properly drilled pipe (nice open draw), a cleaner is seldom necessary
>>during the smoke. Often a nice big hole in the shank will lead to a very
>>small hole in the tenon, and it's at this point that there will be a lot
>>of condensation. If a pipe smoker buys a good set of drills he can turn
>>many wet smoking pipes into great smokers, with just a little practice.
>>This is something that I have learned, and believe me, it works.
>>
>>Charles
>
>
> And I don't disagree with you. The question is, "what should sellers
> automatically disclose?". Most sellers don't even have the ability to
> measure the draft hole.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.
>
>
pipe sight unseen, I know that it's a crap shoot. I guess I'm just
backing you up, because I know that the pipe cleaner test is not really
the determining factor.
Charles
Steve
smoke.I prefer to use the "thick and thin" style pipe cleaner so that I
clean the shank and the mouthpiece thoroughly.Well you have to break
down the pipe to do this [after it cools] and I guess there is some
apprehension about damaging the tenon with a briar,but I've never had
it happen yet.
I own about a dozen meers,I don't worry about the shanks with
them,they seem to absorb all the wetness.But I have learned the hard
way how an uncleaned stem on a meer will tend to build up solidified
tars that lessen the draw.
As I posted the other day,sometimes fluff from the cleaners lodges in
the stem-shank and although you can pass a cleaner through it,as soon
as the moisture hits that cotton it swells and causes gurgle and
restricted draw.
Just wondering,what about those Ser Jac Calabashes that they use some
kind of secret drilling techniche to acchieve?Does anyone know if such
a pipe passes a cleaner?
Stephen
Joe
pipe manufacturers have not always made that an important criterion for how
one of their pipes is crafted, while others over the years have changed
their processes to include it as a criterion, so earlier pipes by the same
manufacturer would not necessairly conform. Certainly, I think more pipe
carvers/manufacturers/crafters today are paying attention to the importance
of this one detail because the smokers of today are more inclined to use it
as a factor in their purchase than they may have in the past.
Joe
<mingk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142557328.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Joe
forefront of discussion for perhaps 10 years, and I don't think that
question has been finally answered, or that every pipe smoker believes a
good smoke can be had with only those pipes which have a specific diameter
smoke hole. Assuming that the larger smoke hole will assure a better
smoker, would that then preclude from the market all those pipes with
smaller smoke holes made more than 10 years ago?
Joe
"Charles Potter" <cpotte...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:dvd9o5$p6m$1...@news.datemas.de...
Joe
acquiring a pipe that called out to me. But, I never could figure where the
little voice came from, anyway.
Joe
"Stephen E. Williamson" <stev...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9788C46E9...@216.196.97.142...
Gene H
"Charles Perry" <pipesan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47ud71F...@individual.net...
I prefer pipes that pass a pipe cleaner easily into the bowl so I can easily
clean them out, or open the air hole if I pack the tobacco wrong and get a
restriction. Too bad that doesn't work for my Peterson System Pipes. They
smoke great (I'm smoking one now) but sometimes I'm too lazy to disassemble
and clean them properly.
I often wonder if the Peterson System pipes would smoke as well if the
airhole was lined up in such a way that a pipe cleaner would go all the way
through. Probably not, though. Isn't it the turbulent path part of the
reason they work?
Gene H
PSLT / Peterson 305
Charles Potter
> Maybe so, Charles, then maybe not - It is a question that has been at the
> forefront of discussion for perhaps 10 years, and I don't think that
> question has been finally answered, or that every pipe smoker believes a
> good smoke can be had with only those pipes which have a specific diameter
> smoke hole. Assuming that the larger smoke hole will assure a better
> smoker, would that then preclude from the market all those pipes with
> smaller smoke holes made more than 10 years ago?
>
> Joe
>
I didn't mean any specific diameter for the smoke hole, Joe. I believe
that the more uniform that the smoke hole is from the opening at the
bowl all the way to the end of the bit, the drier the pipe will smoke.
The tenon is often a problem area for a wet smoking pipe. It seems like
the shank is often drilled with a 5/32 drill or larger bit and the tenon
is less than a 1/8 inch hole. A nice place for condensation. It just
doesn't make for a dry smoking pipe, IMO. YMMV.
Charles
mingc
1. Buy a new pipe that doesn't pass a cleaner?
2. buy an estate pipe that doesn't pass a cleaner?
3. advise carvers not to bother with making their pipes pass a cleaner?
Ultimately, even if the pipe cleaner test doesn't gurantee a good
smoker, I do think it serves other purposes. First, as you mentioned,
it shows that you can alleviate a wet smoke by using a cleaner. I
believe wetness is not just a function of the pipe, but the moisture
content of the tobacco, and room humidity and temperature as well. A
good smoker can sometimes smoke wet and I'd sure like to be able to dry
up the pipe midsmoke. Second, it indicates how much care the carver
put into the pipe. A pipe that does not pass a cleaner fails to do so
not by design but inattention. Whoa, look at all those negatives in
that last sentence!
Ming
Old Vagabond
but in truth I'm struggling just a little. Maybe I should throw it
away? ;-)
As for Briars, I've a delightful Armellini which I will gladly give
£1,000 to anyone who can get a pipe cleaner through it by any normal
means (too many corners and sharp angles in the design) - yet it's a
great pipe, with a huge bowl - the type you can light at the start of a
long movie and just keep puffing right to the end titles. I love it.
So you see, I don't place too much importance to the pipe cleaner test.
That may be because I mostly smoke churchwardens and never have enough
long pipe cleaners - so I guess I learned to mostly smoke dry.
--
Beoð ge gesunde.
Mark -
http://www.the-vagabond.com
buck12ga
are wrong. Now we have that out of the way, lol.
Actually I have been on both sides of this argument. It used to be that
it wasn't too much of an issue, but now, I find it is an issue.
Anyway, I prefer pipes that pass a cleaner. I have some great pipes that
will not pass a cleaner, however. Recently I had Smoker's Haven replace
the stem on an old GBD "Briar Calabash". This old pipe would never pass a
cleaner. It was not a favorite smoker. Since they replaced the flat
saddle vulcanite stem with a taper perspex one it passes a cleaner with
ease. I don't know what they did, exactly, but something in there is now
lined up. Well, let me tell ya, this is now one of my favorite pipes
because it passes a cleaner. Although I am not a wet smoker I sometimes
find the need to run a cleaner through to get rid of a mid shank or stem
obstruction. Even a tiny particle of tobacco in there, messing with the
airstream, will ruin an otherwise perfectly packed bowl. YMMV, but if it
does, I am ready to fight. :)
Puff puff,
Buck
Big Lou's Back Room
the group has joined in this conversation?
Michael (Lou is the dog)
www.biglousbackroom.com
mingk...@aol.com
> much, they should ask. Should sellers have to disclose whether or not the
> tenon bottoms out? Some consider this very important. Or should they
> disclose the exact diameter of the smoke hole? Some are awfully picky about
> that also. As you can see, there are many characteristics of pipes that
> some consider important, and others do not. Who is to decide the correct
> list that should be disclosed? This is truly a case where the importance of
> a characteristic by a buyer should guide him/her to ask the appropriate
> questions before purchasing.
>
> At least that is how I see it.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.
Absolutely. I think that this is the only logical approach.
Art
Old Vagabond
buck12ga wrote:
> Even a tiny particle of tobacco in there, messing with the
> airstream, will ruin an otherwise perfectly packed bowl.
Ah, yes. In that you are quite right.
I did once get a piece of tobacco lodged in one of the corners on the
aforementioned Armellini. Oh, the fun I had trying to dislodge it!
IIRC it took me the best part of an hour to shift it. It didn't spoil
my enjoyment of the pipe though - it just adds to its 'character'.
I guess if I bought something like a straight Billiard I would expect
it to to pass the cleaner test. In more unusual shapes it doesn't
really worry me.
desert smoker
"Am I the only one who finds it interesting that not a single carver in
the group has joined in this conversation?"
That is curious, to say the least. I didn't notice until you brought it
up.
Perhaps it's a sore point? One would think one ASP pipemaker would have
jumped in.
Marty
Bigron
mingc wrote:
> A pipe that does not pass a cleaner fails to do so
> not by design but inattention.
Excellent point!
Mike Stanley
don't, as a rule smoke fuller bents but that may be the reason I don't. That
being said, IMHO, if you're buying a pipe and you want to know if it passes
a pipe cleaner, either ask(if the pipe isn't there with you) or insert one
yourself before you buy it.
Mike Stanley
--
http://mikes-pipe-site.tripod.com/
"desert smoker" <pierr...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1142608165.0...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Justin Holmes
"Am I the only one who finds it interesting that not a single carver in
the group has joined in this conversation?"
Followed by marty...
That is curious, to say the least. I didn't notice until you brought it
up.
Perhaps it's a sore point? One would think one ASP pipemaker would have
jumped in.
Marty
I have 10 Americans and 2 Rads, and none of them require even the
remotest monkeying around to get a cleaner through. Those boys be
drillin' fools.
desert smoker
"I have 10 Americans and 2 Rads, and none of them require even the
remotest monkeying around to get a cleaner through. Those boys be
drillin' fools."
Hi Justin:
Of course, both men understand its importance, and both are known
for the quality of their pipes.
I just thought, as did Michael, that one of group might want to
educate us.
I guess they're too busy working at their craft.
Marty
Justin Holmes
at this point. I don't know that they even have to ponder a cleaner
anymore.
Mike Stanley
I would imagine all the pipe crafters who watch ASP are busy putting
together pipes to take to Chicago.
Mike Stanley
desert smoker
That makes sense.
Marty