Washington state illegal to mail order pipe tobacco as of July 26th
Bob Ramstad
will be illegal to mail order or Internet order pipe tobacco as of
July 26th:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Law%202009/5340-S.SL.pdf
It may also be illegal to have someone gift or trade pipe tobacco.
If this had been common knowledge, I think people in the Seattle Pipe
Club would have been talking about it.
I think there's nothing to be done, except hope that someone goes to
bat and the law is found unconstitutional.
I've already written my legislators expressing my extreme
disappointment. I'm a cigar smoker too but the exemption for cigars
only really sticks in my craw, it's elitism and favoritism.
Apparently this all came about because there were concerns that a
previous law requiring the signature of someone over 18 to receive
tobacco products was likely unconstitutional (as a similar law in
Maine was struck down) so the idiots in the Legislature decided that
the right approach was to ban all shipments of tobacco except for
cigars.
Ugh!
-- Bob
(first time poster, occasional lurker, hi everyone)
JtN©
> This came out of left field, but in Washington state it apparently
> will be illegal to mail order or Internet order pipe tobacco as of
> July 26th:
>
>
> http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/Session%2...
>
> It may also be illegal to have someone gift or trade pipe tobacco.
>
> If this had been common knowledge, I think people in the Seattle Pipe
> Club would have been talking about it.
>
> I think there's nothing to be done, except hope that someone goes to
> bat and the law is found unconstitutional.
>
> I've already written my legislators expressing my extreme
> disappointment. I'm a cigar smoker too but the exemption for cigars
> only really sticks in my craw, it's elitism and favoritism.
>
> Apparently this all came about because there were concerns that a
> previous law requiring the signature of someone over 18 to receive
> tobacco products was likely unconstitutional (as a similar law in
> Maine was struck down) so the idiots in the Legislature decided that
> the right approach was to ban all shipments of tobacco except for
> cigars.
>
> Ugh!
>
> -- Bob
>
> (first time poster, occasional lurker, hi everyone)
Easy to get around even for the most legal shippers ... order 2 cigars
with each order and then your purchasing "cigars".
Its your own damn fault anyway ... your the one living in that
godforsaken state of catastrophic tree-huggin idiots.
JtN ©2009
Ken Dixon
Stock up now, it'll never be cheaper.
Bob Ramstad
>
> Easy to get around even for the most legal shippers ... order 2 cigars
> with each order and then your purchasing "cigars".
I'm sorry, that's an idiotic.
You'd still be committing a Washington state felony, and so would the
shipper, as the order would include items prohibited by Washington
state law.
Did you even bother reading either of the links I sent?
There's a fine line between being funny and being annoying and being
stupid...
JtN©
No, I did not read a single word of it but tell me if I am close in
what I think it would have said.
Unless you present a valid state ID card to obtain your tobacco you
cannot get it or legally posses the tobacco without having your ID
checked and your taxes paid at the store within the state of
Washington.
Yep ... that is probably pretty close in a nutshell of what it says
and to be honest I really dont care what it says.
JtN ©2009
Bob Ramstad
>
> No, I did not read a single word of it but tell me if I am close in
> what I think it would have said.
>
> Unless you present a valid state ID card to obtain your tobacco you
> cannot get it or legally posses the tobacco without having your ID
> checked and your taxes paid at the store within the state of
> Washington.
>
> Yep ... that is probably pretty close in a nutshell of what it says
> and to be honest I really dont care what it says.
>
Direct quote from the law, as passed:
(1) A person may not:
(a) Ship or transport, or cause to be shipped or transported, any
tobacco product ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet
to anyone in this state other than a licensed wholesale or retailer;
or
(b) With knowledge or reason to know of the violation, provide
substantial assistance to a person who is in violation of this
section.
(2) (a) A person who knowingly violates subsection (1) of this section
is guilty of a class C felony, except that the maximum fine that may
be imposed is five thousand dollars.
Bzzzt. You think it might have been a good idea to take a minute and
read one or both of those links before providing invalid advice on how
to get around a law that you know nothing about? Just a thought.
-- Bob
Bob Ramstad
tobacco (except cigars) within Washington state.
This is not one of those "protect the children and keep the tax
revenue" type deals. This is way more draconian.
Bob Landry
Same type of law went into effect June 1 here in Utah. Can't order liquor or
wine from out of state, now tobacco. What's next?
Bob
Just your basic flake, and official Old Fart!
"The missing link between animals and the real human being is
most likely ourselves."
Konrad Lorenz
Mmm
they could comment.
I would be surprised if this withstood a court test. I think it
violates the commerce clause of the constitution.
When prohibition was repealed, states were given some specific rights
to regulate interstate commerce of alcohol, but only alcohol. I don't
understand how they can pick any other product and prohibit it from
crossing state lines, or using the federal mail.
Now taxes - that's a whole different story.
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:40:08 -0600, Bob Landry <saab...@nogmail.com>
wrote:
Michael K.
On Jun 3, 4:30 pm, "Serge D." <nos...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:39:37 -0700 (PDT), Bob
> Ramstad typed:
>
> > Did you even bother reading either of the links I sent?
>
> > There's a fine line between being funny and being annoying and being
> > stupid...
>
> Since you're new here, let me clue you in: JtN is
> one of the biggest assholes that posts here; I've
> had the idiot in my killfile since the second day
> that I posted here (many, many years ago).
>
> --
> Cordially,
> Serge D.
>
> "Americans are the people who describe their use
> of alcohol and tobacco as vices"
>
> G. K. Chesterton
>
> 6/3/2009 7:28:33 PM
John - Melb
> Direct quote from the law, as passed:
>
> (1) A person may not:
> (a) Ship or transport, or cause to be shipped or transported, any
> tobacco product ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet
> to anyone in this state other than a licensed wholesale or retailer;
> or
> (b) With knowledge or reason to know of the violation, provide
> substantial assistance to a person who is in violation of this
> section.
> (2) (a) A person who knowingly violates subsection (1) of this section
> is guilty of a class C felony, except that the maximum fine that may
> be imposed is five thousand dollars.
Bob, do any of the retailers accept telephone orders?
Dave Griffith
> On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:40:08 -0600, Bob Landry <saab...@nogmail.com>
> wrote:
>>Same type of law went into effect June 1 here in Utah. Can't order liquor or
>>wine from out of state, now tobacco. What's next?
> I'm not an attorney, but if we have someone here who is one, maybe
> they could comment.
> I would be surprised if this withstood a court test. I think it
> violates the commerce clause of the constitution.
> When prohibition was repealed, states were given some specific rights
> to regulate interstate commerce of alcohol, but only alcohol. I don't
> understand how they can pick any other product and prohibit it from
> crossing state lines, or using the federal mail.
> Now taxes - that's a whole different story.
A couple years ago New York passed a law that prohibited people in New
York from receiving shipments of wine. That was smacked down as
interfering with trade. This one seems no different.
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'
Briarroot
Outrageous!
Doesn't that law violate Federal Interstate Commerce regs? If I were an
adult citizen of the USA who lived in Washington State, would I not have
the right to purchase a legal product from another State, in whatever
manner I so chose, and have it shipped to my home address provided all
appropriate taxes were paid?
<shakes head sadly> If you thinks *this* looks like trouble, wait until
Obama's Universal Health Care plan gets dumped in our laps. He recently
reneged on his campaign promise and now wants to make every citizen
purchase *mandatory* health insurance coverage (we'll all pay for the
poor, he says), and Democratic Congressmen are already considering
measure to enact extra taxation on 'unhealthy' products like alcoholic
beverages and soft drinks to help pay for it all. How long will it be
until some bright-eyed bureaucrat decides that tobacco smoking costs the
taxpayers "N-million dollars per year" and they start pushing for a
total ban? We've already been demonized as evil purveyors of 'Instant
Death' from second-hand smoke. It won't be long now... :-/
Regards,
Tim Parker ... McClelland's: #2010 Classic Flake in a basket billiard
--
"Man will always be Man. We tried so hard to create a society that was
equal, where there'd be nothing to envy your neighbor. But there's
always something to envy: a smile; a friendship; something you don't
have and want to appropriate. In this world, even a Soviet one, there
will always be rich and poor; rich in gifts - poor in gifts, rich in
love - poor in love." - Comrade Commissar Danilov in "Enemy at the Gates"
Jeff Folloder (TES)
> Doesn't that law violate Federal Interstate Commerce regs? If I were an
> adult citizen of the USA who lived in Washington State, would I not have
> the right to purchase a legal product from another State, in whatever
> manner I so chose, and have it shipped to my home address provided all
> appropriate taxes were paid?
Many thing happen to legally circumvent interstate commerce freedoms.
The trifecta of alcohol, tobacco and firearms comes to mind. When it
gets right down to it, this is a taxation issue. It's not for the
children or saving the whales or a tiny salamander. It's about states
losing billions of dollars a year in tax revenue. And if they cannot get
their slice of the pie (hear: Cartman...), they will not let the pie be
delivered.
--
Jeff Folloder
The Elitist Snob since... Cripes! I forgot!
http://blog.folloder.com
Bob Ramstad
I gave just a snippet of the law, but they define internet broadly:
(4) "Internet" means any computer network, telephonic network, or
other electronic network.
Bob Ramstad
The truly odd thing is that the law, as written, doesn't even allow
for an in state tobacconist to ship to a Washington resident.
There are no provisions in the law for allowing tobacco products to be
shipped providing that all taxes have been paid.
Frankly, the statute looks like it was written by a 14 year old. I
could write a better law in four hours, and it would make more sense,
be more air tight, and also less likely to be struck down... and I'm
not a lawyer, or a legislator!
JtN©
Well thank goodness for that ... but are you at all serious about
following what your legislators have put into effect? Come on now ...
your not seriously going to follow that and now limit yourself to only
what you can legally get.
JtN ©2009
Bob Ramstad
>
> Well thank goodness for that ... but are you at all serious about
> following what your legislators have put into effect? Come on now ...
> your not seriously going to follow that and now limit yourself to only
> what you can legally get.
>
Come on now. You can't be serious. I'm going to commit a class C
felony to get a tin of Mcranies Red Ribbon? Or a few ounces of
4Noggins?
Or maybe more to the point, if you think the law is unjust, it's
clearly enforceable, and if I buy a $9 tin of tobacco, I can be fined
$5000.
Joe
Just have everything shipped via the USPS. The State cannot interfere
with the mail, and the USPS has no responsibility to follow any state
laws.
The retailer can ship there if he is out of State. Washington's laws
cannot be enforced in any other State, which would make it a Federal
issue, and there is no Federal law banning the interstate shipping of
tobacco products.
The only chink in the armor is the Credit Card company, as they may
very well give over purchasing information to the State, as they have
done in the past. To circumvent this, simply work out a deal with
your retailer to allow you to send a Money Order or certified check...
--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X
JtN©
Thanks for the morning laughs Bob ... thanks for the morning laughs.
So you seriously would not risk the minuscule chance of getting what
you really like to smoke because they said its now illegal and you
might get fined? What if they said that sex with your husband was now
illegal and your wife decided to follow that law and never ever ...
well ... we know who has the cahoonies and who doesn't cause would you
break the law and ... well ... some laws are just absurd and this is
one of them if it is even enforceable.
Once again thanks for the laughs ... this whole trollish topic is
really quite funny.
JtN ©2009
Jeff Folloder (TES)
> The retailer can ship there if he is out of State. Washington's laws
> cannot be enforced in any other State, which would make it a Federal
> issue, and there is no Federal law banning the interstate shipping of
> tobacco products.
While there is no current federal law that bans the shipment of tobacco
products, per se, there is at least one that provides for the regulation
of it for the purpose of collecting sales tax. Those same regulations
also require that any retailer shipping tobacco products across state
lines provide customer purchase data when requested. It's fairly
contentious, given that this law conflicts with many privacy statutes.
This is not really about restricting trade... it's about money.
Briarroot
Ah yes, alcohol, tobacco and firearms - I should have known that.
They're special cases; things that our unconstitutional Federal
government keeps telling us are too dangerous for us to buy, sell and
use without the heavy hand of their 'benevolent' guidance watching over
us at every step along the way. <expletive deleted> :-/
Regards,
Tim Parker ... JF Germain's: Medium Flake in a basket billiard
--
"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the
distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every
time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists
conclude that we object to its being done at all." - Frederic Bastiat
Briarroot
From what I hear, Washington state has some of the highest taxes on
tobacco. Can you *personally* make purchases over-the-counter at out of
state shops, and bring the tobacco back yourself - or is that illegal
now too?
Regards,
Tim Parker ... JF Germain's: Medium Flake in a basket billiard
--
Bob Ramstad
> Just have everything shipped via the USPS. The State cannot interfere
> with the mail, and the USPS has no responsibility to follow any state
> laws.
>
> The retailer can ship there if he is out of State. Washington's laws
> cannot be enforced in any other State, which would make it a Federal
> issue, and there is no Federal law banning the interstate shipping of
> tobacco products.
>
> The only chink in the armor is the Credit Card company, as they may
> very well give over purchasing information to the State, as they have
> done in the past. To circumvent this, simply work out a deal with
> your retailer to allow you to send a Money Order or certified check...
>
Well, this is all fine in terms of reducing the chances of getting
caught, but the Washington state resident who is purchasing the
tobacco is still committing a class C felony.
Don't get me wrong, I understand exactly where you are coming from.
Washington state can legislate all it wants, but there will be plenty
of retailers who will still ship here, and there will be plenty of
individuals still placing orders, either willfully flaunting the law
or ignorant of it.
Bob Ramstad
>
> From what I hear, Washington state has some of the highest taxes on
> tobacco. Can you *personally* make purchases over-the-counter at out of
> state shops, and bring the tobacco back yourself - or is that illegal
> now too?
>
I am not a lawyer, but I believe in that case that you are liable for
the Washington state tobacco tax, and if not paid, they can ask for it
and add penalties. That's been true for many many years, both for
mail order purchases as well as purchases in person, once the item
arrives in Washington state and is in the hands of the end user if the
taxes haven't been paid, they are owed.
That said, failure to pay tobacco tax is not a crime, unless you are
willfully avoiding the tax and/or if this is being done as a business
venture and/or if the tax amount owed is sufficiently high.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that failure to pay
the tax is entirely a civil matter unless there's willful tax
avoidance or fraud (misrepresenting the value of the product to reduce
the tax, for example).
Bob Ramstad
> Thanks for the morning laughs Bob ... thanks for the morning laughs.
>
> So you seriously would not risk the minuscule chance of getting what
> you really like to smoke because they said its now illegal and you
> might get fined? What if they said that sex with your husband was now
> illegal and your wife decided to follow that law and never ever ...
> well ... we know who has the cahoonies and who doesn't cause would you
> break the law and ... well ... some laws are just absurd and this is
> one of them if it is even enforceable.
>
> Once again thanks for the laughs ... this whole trollish topic is
> really quite funny.
>
I'm glad you find it amusing. I'm here to entertain. Try the veal.
The statute indicates that for the specific crime of having tobacco
products shipped into Washington state is a class C felony.
Washington state class C felonies are punishable by up to five years
in prison.
The statute does say the maximum fine is $5000 (where for a normal
class C felony the maximum fine is double that amount) but it says
nothing about removing the possibility of jail time.
So, it's a non stop laugh riot. Glad you are enjoying yourself.
JtN©
Yes it is a non stop laugh riot ... and thanks for giving the
opportunity for it to continue, it really is quite hilarious and I
truly hope you are not actually planning on following it like a little
tiny lamb in a flock of sheep being guided by the big bad wolfy known
as Washington State and if you are going to follow along like that
little lamb then the laugh riot is over and I just feel pity for you.
JtN ©2009
Bob Ramstad
> Yes it is a non stop laugh riot ... and thanks for giving the
> opportunity for it to continue, it really is quite hilarious and I
> truly hope you are not actually planning on following it like a little
> tiny lamb in a flock of sheep being guided by the big bad wolfy known
> as Washington State and if you are going to follow along like that
> little lamb then the laugh riot is over and I just feel pity for you.
Nice metaphor.
I suppose we all know what happens to little lambs?
They get slaughtered.
JtN©
Come on now ... don't be a poor little lamb but be one who has lost
your way and become one of those black sheep who take no crap from the
stinking gooberment!
JtN ©2009
Bob Ramstad
In all seriousness, I have no intentions of violating the law, however
unjust.
I do have a short term action plan though.
1) Stock up.
2) Investigate opportunities with tobacconists in the Seattle area,
especially if we can greatly increase the range of blends available
here.
3) Have discussions with the Seattle Pipe Club in regards to ways we
might be able to help the membership.
As an example, I don't think anyone in Washington will be able to
legally purchase Seattle Pipe Club blends as I don't know of a single
in state tobacconist that carries them. Obviously at the very least
the SPC members will want to figure out a reasonably convenient way
for us to continue to purchase our own blends legally.
4) Continue discussions with a lawyer (currently ongoing).
5) Continue discussions with my state representatives (currently
ongoing).
In the medium term, I'm considering some other options, some of which
might even be a bit fun. I have some contacts in the media and the
idea of having a protest smoke of Seattle Pipe Club blends sounds
pretty amusing. I'm sure we can find some 84 year old guy who has
been smoking a blend from Uhle's for 60 years and put him on camera.
The cynic in me says that this is all done, game over, and the writing
has been on the wall for a while.
The optimist in me says that much like cigars, where there is a huge
range of blends and brands and sizes and companies, pipe tobacco
deserves to be included in the same carve out that's in the current
bill, and getting the Legislature to change the law next session, in
Spring 2010, is a reasonable goal.
JtN©
I bet the reaction from the Seattle Pipe Club will be along the same
lines as my reaction is to you and its best to be careful with that 84
year old guy, he may keel over from a heart attack caused by the
excessive laughter from your situation. Do you honestly think some 84
year old guy would follow this law when he wants to smoke what he
wants to smoke? Probably not ... so be careful ... you may get laughed
out of the room or ... slaughtered like a ... well ... you know what I
mean.
JtN ©2009
JtN©
Good GAWD what an ASSHOLE you are ! ! !
Cant you see this is a very serious problem for Bob? Cant you tell
that he is very passionate about following the laws that are set forth
by his state government? Don't you know that there are people out
there that no matter what they feel they will always do what they are
told ... no matter if it is right or wrong?
Why do you have to be such an asshole to Bob? Cant ya just cut the
poor guy some slack and let him do what he feels he must do without
bustin his balls? Heck he may be wrong in what he's doing but why beat
him over the head about it?
Why not just let it rest so he can go along with his life!
JtN ©2009
JtN©
Ya know your right ... not the asshole part and not really any of the
rest of what you said but your far closer to being right than I am so
lets call a truce and be done with it or do you want to take it
outside and kick the little lambs out of each other?
JtN ©2009
JtN©
Fine ... I'll follow you ... lets go ...
aaahhhh ... baaahhhh ... baaaaahhhhhhhh ...
Anyone have any mint jelly? I think we might be needed some soon.
JtN ©2009
marg...@earthlink.net
Uh oh ... here we go ... he is arguing and fighting with himself and
actually making sense to most likely just himself. I sure hope he
finishes it soon so we can get back to reality.
JtN©
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT), Bob
> Ramstad typed:
>
>
>
> > I am not a lawyer,
>
>
> > but I believe in that case that you are liable for
> > the Washington state tobacco tax, and if not paid, they can ask for it
> > and add penalties.
>
> common in the East. NY State recently subpoenaed
> sales records of Indian reservations that sell
> tax-free cigarettes and began collecting from the
> purchasers.
>
> > Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that failure to pay
> > the tax is entirely a civil matter unless there's willful tax
> > avoidance or fraud (misrepresenting the value of the product to reduce
> > the tax, for example).
>
>
> Why do you continue to reply to JtN and let him
> jerk your wire? Just killfile him. AFAIC, he's an
> asshole with the IQ of a house plant.
>
> --
> Cordially,
> Serge D.
>
> "Americans are the people who describe their use
> of alcohol and tobacco as vices"
>
> G. K. Chesterton
>
> 6/5/2009 3:36:38 PM
Yeah but at least I aint a slimy lawyer and ya know what they say
about them lawyers ... ;-)
JtN ©2009
Briarroot
> On Jun 5, 8:38 am, Briarroot <briarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From what I hear, Washington state has some of the highest taxes on
>> tobacco. Can you *personally* make purchases over-the-counter at out of
>> state shops, and bring the tobacco back yourself - or is that illegal
>> now too?
>>
>
> I am not a lawyer, but I believe in that case that you are liable for
> the Washington state tobacco tax, and if not paid, they can ask for it
> and add penalties. That's been true for many many years, both for
> mail order purchases as well as purchases in person, once the item
> arrives in Washington state and is in the hands of the end user if the
> taxes haven't been paid, they are owed.
>
The same is true in Ohio for all mail-order purchases from out of state
retailers. We're supposed to report them and pay the appropriate state
sales tax on our income tax forms. I never have and I don't know anyone
else who bothers either. (I'll be screwed if Ohio ever gets a look of
Amazon's database! <g>)
> That said, failure to pay tobacco tax is not a crime, unless you are
> willfully avoiding the tax and/or if this is being done as a business
> venture and/or if the tax amount owed is sufficiently high.
>
> Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that failure to pay
> the tax is entirely a civil matter unless there's willful tax
> avoidance or fraud (misrepresenting the value of the product to reduce
> the tax, for example).
>
All ya gotta do now is find a good tobacconist in a nearby state and gas
up the ol' jalopy. Maybe you could get together with a few friends with
similar interests and make a day of it. "Road trip!" ;-)
Regards,
Tim Parker ... JF Germain's: Medium Flake in a basket billiard
--
"Any attempt to replace a personal conscience by a collective conscience
does violence to the individual and is the first step toward
totalitarianism." - Herman Hesse
Briarroot
Okay Jim, time to back away from the computer! ;-)