alt.music.ska
thetoolsofwar
as full of whiny college-kid B.S. as this group is full of racist B.S.?
I've been trying to check it for relevant posts, and there are some, but
that whole "pointless post" thread is worse (IMO) than our Dave Mustaine
thread! At least our D.M. thread is on-topic--a bunch of skinheads ganging
up on a flamer, y'know? ; )
Are there any other ska-specific groups out there that are worth checking
out? I haven't bothered looking 'cause that one was so disappointing in
content. Let me know, 'cause despite my abhorrence of most of today's "ska"
bands, there's still a lot worth finding out about. TIA.
--at rest
DBM
once in awhile it spins outta control. I cant say Im helping things myself
though..
"Weakness or strength: you exist, that is strength.... You don't know where you
are going or why you are going; go in everywhere, answer everyone. No one will
kill you, any more than if you were a corpse."--Arthur Rimbaud
Soul Stomper
Attempted this thread on the ska newsgroup, but it didn't really
take off, due to the recent nonsense.
With all of the recent discussion about who is the "person of
the millenium" and such, I was wondering about something:
Who do you feel is the most influential ska or reggae artist
of the millenium??
Any thoughts, folks??
Respect,
Billy
Soul Stomper
>
> Um--Marcus, Billy, others who frequent that group and this one: is it always
> as full of whiny college-kid B.S. as this group is full of racist B.S.?
>
AMS with their nonsensical whining and off-topic trash. Most of
the time, their is a least one topic that may be interesting and
informative.
I just wish everyone on AMS, myself included, would stop whining about
other people whining... perhaps we have some informative discussions
about ska and the like.
Just my $0.23 worth of an opinion.
Respect,
Billy
Marcus
>Nope..thats the only one that I know of..usually its pretty on topic..but
>every
>once in awhile it spins outta control. I cant say Im helping things myself
>though..
For 60s ska rocksteady and reggae rec.music.reggae is good. A lot of the
people are real elitists, but it stays pretty on topic, and lots of really
knoledgable people(Steve Barrow, Roger Dalke the most notable, but plenty of
other very very knowledgable people too) post, and can answer questions. Some
interesting discussions now.
Marcus
Pounding the Pavement
www.zyweb.com/ptpzine
"The Rhythm of an Island Is the Music of the Street"
Everyones Little Skin Sister
mean atleast when i say stupid things most of you ignore me.. even when i made
a point they'd harass me and then some of them would personally email me
commending me.. WTF you know.. oh well. i got sick of it and left. blabbles
dani
>Every once in a while, the rejects from alt.punk decide to invade
>AMS with their nonsensical whining and off-topic trash. Most of
>the time, their is a least one topic that may be interesting and
>informative.
>
>I just wish everyone on AMS, myself included, would stop whining about
>other people whining... perhaps we have some informative discussions
>about ska and the like.
>
>Just my $0.23 worth of an opinion.
>
>Respect,
>Billy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its
pants on."-Sir Winston Churchill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Marcus
>Who do you feel is the most influential ska or reggae artist
>of the millenium??
>
I said it has to be Jerry Dammers, as he's the one who really ensured it's
international popularity. Bad Manners, The Equators and Madness may have been
playing ska before The Specials, but it was Dammers who made it into a
movement, got the seeds planted internationally, which ensured the current ska
scene for the last 15 years. Plus he really brought attention to the roots of
the music, so if people are really 60s elitists, they can know that there may
have been able to buy as many of their reissues if not for dammers.
Marcus
Pounding the Pavement
www.zyworld.com/ptpzine
thetoolsofwar
not, his contributions have been more influential to a wider audience over a
greater timespan than just about any other reggae artist. Kinda like Henry
Ford and the Model T--it wasn't the first car ever built, and it certainly
wasn't the best, but the car and Ford's policies had more influence than any
other auto manufacturer ever since. If you ask your average person in the
USA about Two-Tone they'll have no clue, but you ask about Bob Marley and
they'll at least have some idea what you're talking about. I've asked some
Jamaicans about what they like, 3 of the regular customers where I used to
work--admittedly not a statistically significant sample population, but they
all listened to dancehall/ragamuffin stuff, still gave a lot of respect to
Marley, didn't like '60's stuff 'cause it was out of date, and had never
heard of the Specials.
As far as strictly "ska" artists...the whole Two-Tone thing had a bunch of
hits but so did early ska. I know some people who aren't ska or reggae fans
who remember Millie Smalls' "My Boy Lollipop" and Desmond Dekker's
"Isrealites" just as they remember Madness' "Our House," as old radio hits.
I really don't think any one ska artist/musician/producer/whatever clearly
stands out above the rest as being most musically influential, most popular,
what have you. Dammers is among the most influential, but his achievements
overall pale before Bob Marley's.
But as long as were on the theme here at a.s.m., what about Oi? Jimmey
Pursey, Gary B. of Sounds, who gets credit as most influential in the Oi
movement? (If anyone cares about hardcore, it's Agnostic Front IMO for
sticking it out the longest, bringing the most new influences into the
music, and doing their best to bring some sort of unity among the bands and
the fans.)
--at rest
thetoolsofwar
10 filters (WB, Red Brick, etc. and their various incarnations) I killed
over 300 messages.
People are damn polite over there...I'm trying to be nice in my posts...it's
taking some real restraint!
Thanks to everybody who responded, I'm giving the group a chance thanks to
you.
--at rest
Upsetter
go to Siberia and guaranteed some motherfucker is jamming to Bob. Although
as a child I knew who Madness and the Beat were before Bob, there is no
discounting the influences Bob Marley's music had on me and my friends.
This is out of left field but as far as ska goes, I have to point out Rico
Rodriquez. Rico has played trombone with practically everyone. The solos on
Prince Buster's Judge Dread Lp still gives me chills. He was an ad hoc
member of the original Specials. When I think of the ska/rocksteady sound I
think of Rico.
Oi?... too many bands were influential. the 4 skins and Cockney Rejects
would be my first thought.
Hardcore huh? Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Minor Threat, 7 Seconds. That is
what I consider good old American Hardcore Punk Rock. Fast, loud, and angry.
I agree that A.F. has redefined and fought hard for the music, but they are
re-influencing the younger bands who may not have heard much of the
original 80's hardcore.
I could be wrong, but that is my opinion anyway.
--
the Upsetter http://www.geocities.com/upsetter.geo/crucified.html
"Hum a few bars and I'll smash your face in."
Suggs McPherson
Regina Winter
wrote:
>People are damn polite over there...I'm trying to be nice in my posts...it's
>taking some real restraint!
It's quite a different world, isn't it?
Am I the only one who, getting older, comes even more often than before to the
conclusion that there are situations when yelling "shut the fuck up!" or
*making* some ignorant little fuck shut up in a nonverbal way is the right
answer? That whole hippie social worker attitude about explaining someone
quietly and politely why they are an ignorant dipshit turned out to be somewhat
inefficient ...
Regina
"And it's a promise, and it's a threat, and it's not something that I'll let
you forget"
(Rites of Spring)
DBM
>10 filters (WB, Red Brick, etc. and their various incarnations) I killed
>over 300 messages.
>taking some real restraint!
>you.
>--at rest
>
and whatnot.. and Im incredibly lazy, so for now Ill hafta just sift through it
I guess...
-Erin
Marcus
>
>Since the question included "reggae" the answer is Bob Marley. Like it or
>not, his contributions have been more influential to a wider audience over a
>greater timespan than just about any other reggae artist. Kinda like Henry
>Ford and the Model T--it wasn't the first car ever built, and it certainly
>wasn't the best, but the car and Ford's policies had more influence than any
>other auto manufacturer ever since. If you ask your average person in the
>USA about Two-Tone they'll have no clue, but you ask about Bob Marley and
>they'll at least have some idea what you're talking about. I've asked some
>Jamaicans about what they like, 3 of the regular customers where I used to
>work--admittedly not a statistically significant sample population, but they
>all listened to dancehall/ragamuffin stuff,
Yeah, it's like if you ask most black kids under 25, whether they like Rap or
Soul and R&B your not gonna get the latter, even though IMO it's better. And
on that note, most of my black friends who are into rap(more than just puffy
and Jay Z, not like their stuff is any better), are into dancehall too, but
don't know who Israel Vibration is, much less the Upsetters
still gave a lot of respect to
>Marley, didn't like '60's stuff 'cause it was out of date, and had never
>heard of the Specials.
> As far as strictly "ska" artists...the whole Two-Tone thing had a bunch of
>hits but so did early ska. I know some people who aren't ska or reggae fans
>who remember Millie Smalls' "My Boy Lollipop" and Desmond Dekker's
>"Isrealites" just as they remember Madness' "Our House," as old radio hits.
>I really don't think any one ska artist/musician/producer/whatever clearly
>stands out above the rest as being most musically influential, most popular,
I have to disagree. The reason why I picked the specials, is because sure,
plenty of people like Bob Marley, but most people I know who say "Oh I like
reggae, I like bob marley" really only like bob marley, and that's where it
stops. There are lots of people who got into reggae/ska thorugh him, but most
people are content with just owning legend and being a reggae fan
With Madness, Dekker, and Millie. Sure they may recognize those songs, but of
all the alterna kids and yuppies, how many of them say "Oh Madness plays that
songs our house, why don't I look into their old stuff" then get into ska. NO
they just know that one song, and that's it, they don't even know they are a
ska group. Ditto with Millie. People may know My Boy Lollipop, but they don't
even know it's ska. This is true to a lesser extent with Desmond Dekker and
Israelites. However with Jerry Dammers, most people know that it's ska. I'd
say the specials are the only band this is true with. As the English Beat were
pretty popular too, but most people don't think of it as ska
>what have you. Dammers is among the most influential, but his achievements
>overall pale before Bob Marley's.
> But as long as were on the theme here at a.s.m., what about Oi? Jimmey
>Pursey, Gary B. of Sounds, who gets credit as most influential in the Oi
>movement? (If anyone cares about hardcore, it's Agnostic Front IMO for
>sticking it out the longest, bringing the most new influences into the
>music, and doing their best to bring some sort of unity among the bands and
>the fans.)
I don't like Agnostic Front, and I don't know who's the most influential. The
best are definitely Bad Brains, and Murphys Law.
As with Oi!, I'd say Gary Bushell, more less made it a movement; and I'd say
Sex Pistols had more influence over the early bands than Sham
Marcus
Pounding the Pavement
soul-ska-reggae
Soul Stomper
>
> After killfiling lots of trolls I'm finding some decent posts--using about
> 10 filters (WB, Red Brick, etc. and their various incarnations) I killed
> over 300 messages.
> People are damn polite over there...I'm trying to be nice in my posts...it's
> taking some real restraint!
> Thanks to everybody who responded, I'm giving the group a chance thanks to
> you.
> --at rest
Cool! Unfortunately my newsreader does not include a killfile function,
so I have been ignoring all the trolls. Hasn't been easy though.
Respect,
Billy
Marcus
>go to Siberia and guaranteed some motherfucker is jamming to Bob. Although
>as a child I knew who Madness and the Beat were before Bob,
My whole thing with the Beat and Madness, is most people didn't appreciate them
as ska. I mean, My biology teacher once asked me to make him a tape of ska;
and the first thing he said when he saw the tape was "Madness is ska?". I can
say the same for some of my cousins who asked me what ska is, when they owned 3
madness LPs(including one step beyond) and all the English Beat ones. I think
the specials are the only band, where a good ammount of people in the US
actually knew that it was ska when it first came out
there is no
>discounting the influences Bob Marley's music had on me and my friends.
I think one person, we really forgot about is Jimmy Cliff. As thhearder they
come really gave reggae recognition in the United States. My parents own the
LP and my dad may not have even known what reggae was if not for it(as he
really paid no attention to current music by the mid 0s) as do many other older
people, I assume, and it really paved the way for Bob Marley's Catch a Fire's
success here
>This is out of left field but as far as ska goes, I have to point out Rico
>Rodriquez. Rico has played trombone with practically everyone. The solos on
>Prince Buster's Judge Dread Lp still gives me chills. He was an ad hoc
>member of the original Specials. When I think of the ska/rocksteady sound I
>think of Rico.
But who did he influence?? It's obvious that he was influenced by Don Drummond,
and yeah he's been really consistent(I'd say Laurel Aitken ties him), so he's
great, but Influential, I don't know, as most t-bonist would say Don Drummond,
not him. He also did stuff with Madness, and the selecter BTW
Marcus
>>
>I need to figure out how to killfile that trash. They keep changing thier
>names
>and whatnot.. and Im incredibly lazy, so for now Ill hafta just sift through
>it
>I guess...
>
The way I figure, is it's winter break, he(as I'm pretty sure it's all one
person) ha no friends, and right now, he can afford to spend 4 hours a day
fucking with people who spend maybe 10-20 minutes a day on the newsgroup.
As soon as winter vacation ends, I bet they will stop
dra...@mpinet.net
I booked the Slackers, and I need a good turn out at that show, so while
socializing with my sister's friends I said: "I don't know if you heard of them,
they're a really great ska band, you should come by."
As soon as I said "ska" their eyes lit up and the reply was "Oh, I LOVE ska! I
love Reel Big Fish!"
That's why a lot of people who think they're tough immediately dismiss ska, cause
they think that bands like reel big fish are ska (and no, I don't mean skinheads by
that.. but a lot of people).
But I'll tell you, I think my sister must be in the dorkiest sorority at her
school... these girls are all 21 and they talk like they're 14... they live pipe
dreams of meeting the backstreet boys and n'sync... they're 21... and it wasn't the
alcohol either, they were drinking 7-11 wine on new year's.
Marcus wrote:
Alan Guest
What kind of newsreader you using?
--
Alan
al...@macropolis.demon.co.uk
Skinhead Heaven - the world would never be the same again
http://www.macropolis.demon.co.uk/heaven.htm
Alan Guest
Scratch Perry. He influenced all. He added the sound to the Wailers that
have come to be remembered by. He pioneered experimental production. He
made the sounds that influenced all the Two Tone revival bands and
beyond. He's still influencing people today. He's as mad as a march hare
but influential is his middle name.
--
Alan
al...@macropolis.freeserve.co.uk
Skinhead Heaven - the world would never be the same again
Soul Stomper
>
> >
> > Cool! Unfortunately my newsreader does not include a killfile function,
> > so I have been ignoring all the trolls. Hasn't been easy though.
> >
> What kind of newsreader you using?
>
Ummm Netscape News is the one I am using.
Respect,
Billy
Marcus
>
> You know what, people are just stupid, but you already know that.
>I booked the Slackers, and I need a good turn out at that show, so while
>socializing with my sister's friends I said: "I don't know if you heard of
>them,
>they're a really great ska band, you should come by."
> As soon as I said "ska" their eyes lit up and the reply was "Oh, I LOVE
>ska! I
>love Reel Big Fish!"
So what's bad about that. It's not like you were born being the most old
school skauthentic person in the world. Everyone has to get into it somehow.
Maybe, she'll say "oh reel big fish is ska, I'll go to this slackers show" and
get into good ska. Fuck, how many of the "rbf rudies" are in the scene now,
who were in it 2 or 3 hell 1 year ago? not many. The ammount of people at
shows are getting smaller and smaller more and more good bands are breaking up;
and by saying "Oh you don't know as much about what real ska is, so you're an
idiot" isn't gonna help things. Granted most of the people who heard RBF and
weren't like "oh they're ska, let's check out the old stuff", but if someone
does, than that's good. I'd much rather go to a show with good bands, and some
people who don't know everything about ska, than not go to shows at all.
How did you get into ska. I will admit I got into it, in 94-95 by bands like
Op Iv and the Bosstones, am I the reaoson why no one likes ska. I can tell you
I know more than one skinhead who got into skin scene by first getting into ska
punk bands.
There's some 14 year old at my school who is all into LTJ, mu330, etc.etc.etc.
Did I say "oh that guys an idiot, all ska made after 1980 sucks?" no I gave him
some tapes of some other music, and granted he did dismiss a lot of it, but he
did like the slackers and hepcat, so maybe he'll eventually branch out.
It's the elitist "I don't want some silly ska punker to get into real ska"
attitude which will keep it from being semi sucessful
> That's why a lot of people who think they're tough immediately dismiss ska,
>cause
>they think that bands like reel big fish are ska (and no, I don't mean
>skinheads by
>that.. but a lot of people).
No skinheads say, "oh some ska bands are dumb, and lot's of dorks listen to
ska, so let's automatically dismiss it" and I'll tell you, I know more than one
skin who got into ska, by ska punk bands.
I know tons of ska punkers and skaters who listen to the Dropkick murphys and
maybe the Ducky Boys and claim to be big Oi! fans, do you not like new Oi!
anymore?
At least the ska punkers actually know what they like. A lot of Skinheads(at
least in the USA) are not the kings of fucking ska. I don't want to
generalize, but it seems like a lot of them own more third wave and ska punk
albums than other trad ska and 2 tone, yet say "all new ska bands suck, I only
listen to the old stuff, Skinhead reggae is my favorite type of ska" when they
own maybe three 2 tone comps a specials and Madness comp, a skatalites CD,
Skinhead moonstomp and any other CD on trojan with the word skinhead in it(yes
I have said this a lot, but it's true).
> But I'll tell you, I think my sister must be in the dorkiest sorority at
>her
>school... these girls are all 21 and they talk like they're 14... they live
>pipe
>dreams of meeting the backstreet boys and n'sync...
My sister lived your sister's pipe dream, she met the backstreet boys, ha ha.
She doesn't actually like them, but yeah a bunch of her 18 year old friends are
all obsesssed.
Marcus
www.zyworld.com/ptpzine
"Well you've made the rules but we don't know that game
Perhaps I'd listen to your records, but your logic's far too lame
I'd only waste three valuable minutes of my life with your insincerity"
Dexys Midnight Runners
thetoolsofwar
Regina Winter <rwint...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:E123ltJ-...@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net...
> It's quite a different world, isn't it?
> Am I the only one who, getting older, comes even more often than before to
the
> conclusion that there are situations when yelling "shut the fuck up!" or
> *making* some ignorant little fuck shut up in a nonverbal way is the right
> answer? That whole hippie social worker attitude about explaining someone
> quietly and politely why they are an ignorant dipshit turned out to be
somewhat
> inefficient ...
LOL...Hell yes...
One of my favorite quotes: "One war is worth a thousand words." -D.B.C. (ah,
Canadian metalcore...)
--at rest
thetoolsofwar
the Specials were all considered pop bands by the majority of mainstream
America. And have been and still are discounted as has-been pop bands by
the majority of mainstream America today. I was surprised to find tapes
from all 3 in a friend's collection--he listened mostly to bad 70's and 80's
metal and hard rock, but he had Two-Tone stuff from the days when he
listened to top 40 as a kid. He had no idea what ska was. He had some Bob
Marley too--and he knew what "reggae" (dub) was, including other musicians
besides Bob. He had some clue about rastafarian religion and Jamaica as
well, mostly due to Bob's music and a couple movies.
--at rest
P.S. I used him as the most blatant example, but my sister, a couple
cousins, and lots of their friends were all teeny-boppers when Two-Tone was
big as pop music, and they made the same associations or lack thereof. I
wasn't into pop music at all then, but I do remember Madness, General
Public, etc. strictly as pop bands a bit later. It was until after I became
a skin (through the hardcore/Oi route, ska was last for me, I didn't really
get into it until '88 or so) that I went back and discovered those bands as
ska.
Lagerskin2
Anyway... I didn't mean to sound elitist. I basically meant she was one of
those people who attempts to cling to whatever may be "cool" for the time
being...
But those new ska bands suck ass, and so do a lot of new american wannabe
Oi! bands...
I am not the king of ska. To tell you the truth, I don't even like most ska
anymore. Why? Ever since I started hanging out with this "skin" who listens to
the worst ska ever...
Anyway, I do like reggae a lot... a LOT.
Marcus
>Scratch Perry. He influenced all. He added the sound to the Wailers that
>have come to be remembered by. He pioneered experimental production. He
>made the sounds that influenced all the Two Tone revival bands and
>beyond. He's still influencing people today. He's as mad as a march hare
>but influential is his middle name.
I actually have to agree with you. He's probably the most influential to
artists, though maybe not fans.
Most of his stuff after the late 70s I don't really care for though
Marcus
>Marley too--and he knew what "reggae" (dub) was, including other musicians
>besides Bob. He had some clue about rastafarian religion and Jamaica as
>well, mostly due to Bob's music and a couple movies.
I guess that's true, but with most people I know they know vaguely what reggae
is, and rastafarianism; but very few people really have anything besides Bob
Marley stuff. They all say they love reggae, but have no interest in hearing
anything, and maybe they'll get a copy of Peter Tosh's "Legalize it" or a jimmy
cliff cd
I mean legend has sold 40 million copies, but what reggae band has come close.
If he was incredibly influential, a lot of reggae records would be selling a
bit more
But I guess that's really a matter of so many damn people pretending to be
ecclectic. It seems that everyone my age loves the beatles, bob marley and
john coltrane, but has no interest in liking any other bands that sound
remotely like tehm
Pounding the Pavement
soul-ska-reggae
www.zyworld.com/ptpzine
"If you don't like it you don't have to dance"
Lagerskin2
that one's the best for lookin at porn
Upsetter
are speaking an alien language. When you say Specials, English Beat,
Madness, Selector... the majority of the replies you will get is that those
bands were "New Wave". Claude Bessy put it best:
"(New wave)... it's just a polite thing to say when you are trying to
explain that you are not into the boring old rock and roll but you didn't
dare say punk because you were afraid to get kicked out of the fucking party
and they wouldn't give you coke anymore. There's New Music, there's New
Underground Sound, there's noise, there's punk, there's power pop, there's
ska, there's rockabilly, but new wave doesn't mean shit."
People bought into New Wave as a genre despite the fact that it was just
a big mess of a lot of different styles of music. The record companies liked
the term because they could give it to whatever band or style that didn't
fit in with the norm.
As far as influencing the general public about ska I really don't think
the Specials are that special (nice pun). I think that folks who were
already in the know would say that the whole Two Tone stable including all
the aforementioned bands did influence the sound of modern ska. The
influence felt was not powered by one band alone, it was the conglomerate. I
think you are giving the Specials far more due than they really deserve.
Most of the songs on the first record were versions or covers as were the
Beat's first effort. I would give more props to Madness as they had more
originals in their repertoire.
All of the Two Tone bands drifted from the hardcore ska audience to
dabble in the Pop arena. Even Bad Manners put out a lack luster pop album in
83. I honestly prefer Madness' later efforts than any of the other Two Tone
bands. With the exception of "Free Nelson Mandela" the Specials AKA LP was
horrible. I can still listen to "Keep Moving" in it's entirety.
In re: to Rico Rodriguez. I believe that time will prove that Rico's style
and phrasing have surpassed the influence of Don Drummond. I cannot discount
the sheer brilliance of Mr. Drummond. I just think that Rico's playing
epitomizes the Rocksteady/Reggae sound on the trombone. Who has he
influenced? Ask around, I think his name will pop up beside Don's when you
talk to most ska trombone players. Again that is a question for people who
are in the know. I bet you most new ska fans have no idea who either of
these people are.
Upsetter
"Marcus " <ptp...@aol.communazi> wrote in message
news:E124smU-...@finch-post-12.mail.demon.net...
Let's be perfectly honest. Only a small percentage of RBF fans will dig deep
into the record bins to find the roots material. The majority will move on
to the next big thing, which oddly enough seems to be boy bands and and all
the other crap on TRL. I for one am happy that shows are getting smaller,
more room to stagger about without bumping into too many people. As far as
bands breaking up. Who cares, bands break up regardless of how many people
are into the ska scene. If you believe in what you are doing you stick it
out even if only four people show up to see you. Right now there are more
ska (I use the term very loosely) than there has ever been in the U.S. and
internationally. I remember in the eighties when you could count the U.S.
ska bands using your hands. Blindly supporting crap bands just because they
are "Ska" is bullshit and doesn't help the music any.
> How did you get into ska. I will admit I got into it, in 94-95 by bands
like
> Op Iv and the Bosstones, am I the reaoson why no one likes ska. I can
tell you
> I know more than one skinhead who got into skin scene by first getting
into ska
> punk bands.
I never got "into" ska, I just managed to learn more about the music that I
had been listening to. The first ska that I was exposed to was the video for
"One step beyond" when I was nine. I didn't know it was ska but I fucking
loved it. I really started to learn about the music in 1985-86 when I got in
to punk and Oi! I listened to skapunk too, the Clash and the Offs.
> There's some 14 year old at my school who is all into LTJ, mu330,
etc.etc.etc.
> Did I say "oh that guys an idiot, all ska made after 1980 sucks?" no I
gave him
> some tapes of some other music, and granted he did dismiss a lot of it,
but he
> did like the slackers and hepcat, so maybe he'll eventually branch out.
>
> It's the elitist "I don't want some silly ska punker to get into real ska"
> attitude which will keep it from being semi sucessful
>
> > That's why a lot of people who think they're tough immediately dismiss
ska,
> >cause
> >they think that bands like reel big fish are ska (and no, I don't mean
> >skinheads by
> >that.. but a lot of people).
You have to face the fact that RBF and their ilk i.e. Save Ferris are shit
and they are alienating ska fans(and skins) from new ska.
> No skinheads say, "oh some ska bands are dumb, and lot's of dorks listen
to
> ska, so let's automatically dismiss it" and I'll tell you, I know more
than one
> skin who got into ska, by ska punk bands.
> I know tons of ska punkers and skaters who listen to the Dropkick murphys
and
> maybe the Ducky Boys and claim to be big Oi! fans, do you not like new Oi!
> anymore?
> At least the ska punkers actually know what they like. A lot of
Skinheads(at
> least in the USA) are not the kings of fucking ska. I don't want to
> generalize, but it seems like a lot of them own more third wave and ska
punk
> albums than other trad ska and 2 tone, yet say "all new ska bands suck, I
only
> listen to the old stuff, Skinhead reggae is my favorite type of ska" when
they
> own maybe three 2 tone comps a specials and Madness comp, a skatalites CD,
> Skinhead moonstomp and any other CD on trojan with the word skinhead in
it(yes
> I have said this a lot, but it's true).
The fact of the matter is this, you will always find at least one skin at a
ska show, can you say that about punks and skaters? Maybe you can today but
what about in ten years? Skins will always embrace ska and rocksteady and
reggae. It is the nature of the beast. And yes a lot of the new skins don't
know too much about the music other than the few bands you mentioned above.
I am still finding bands and records that I never knew about. It's called
growing and learning. About the new Oi! bands, yes there are shit ones. I
would have to say the Ducky's and DKM are two of my favorite newer bands,
and no I would not stop listening to them because some dipshit likes them
too.
I really have nothing against the third wave of ska other than with any
faddish popularity it produces mediocre music which goes for any genre, Oi!
included. I have met quite a few of the new ska bands over the years and
have made some good friends. Funny that you mention MU330 because they are
great guys. I don't personally like all their songs. When I first met them I
was drunk and told Matt Knobbe that they sounded like Eddie Money singing
for Men at Work. I think he appreciated the honesty cuz he asked me to gone
on tour with them. I should have gone, it would have been fun.
Regina Winter
>my sister, a couple
>cousins, and lots of their friends were all teeny-boppers when Two-Tone was
>big as pop music
Damn, I'll have to raid my sister's attic. She had her teeny-bopper-years
around that time too. Listens to Bavarian ouffta-music now, believe it or not.
And I have to admit that, growing up in one of these small towns that exist in
some crazy time fold and that was therefore mainly hippieland, I grew up with
some Reggae=hippie music conditioning that was hard to break. I'm still sort of
allergic against some songs; can't help it.
Marcus
> Anyway... I didn't mean to sound elitist. I basically meant she was one of
>those people who attempts to cling to whatever may be "cool" for the time
>being...
Lots of good new bands IMO, The Rhythm Doctors are great. And 90% of the bands
that formed after 1997 have broken up and are now playing emo or pop punk And
yeah, there aren't as many good releases coming out. But usually at least a
few a month. The last Skalars album is great, I like thenew stubborn allstars,
the new radiation kings etc.etc.
and so do a lot of new american wannabe
>Oi! bands...
> I am not the king of ska. To tell you the truth, I don't even like most
>ska
>anymore. Why?
But it seems like lots of skins who don't even like it, still enjoy saying wha
t
Ever since I started hanging out with this "skin" who listens
>to
>the worst ska ever...
So, you shouldn't let them keep you from liking it.
> Anyway, I do like reggae a lot... a LOT.
Do you have more Post 1985 Ska records or reggae records??
I mean, it's not really aimed at you personally, but just people in general.
Soul Stomper
>
> Scratch Perry. He influenced all. He added the sound to the Wailers that
> have come to be remembered by. He pioneered experimental production. He
> made the sounds that influenced all the Two Tone revival bands and
> beyond. He's still influencing people today. He's as mad as a march hare
> but influential is his middle name.
>
Lee Perry is most definitely one mad individual. I read an article
a couple years ago where they interviewed him... boy was he saying
some weird things. Yikes!
Respect,
Billy
Alan Guest
> I actually have to agree with you. He's probably the most influential to
> artists, though maybe not fans.
>
> Most of his stuff after the late 70s I don't really care for though
From the little of his later stuff I've heard, it's all the same kind of
stuff re-mixed. You can only do the People Funny rhythm so many times
and it wears a bit thin.
--
Alan
al...@macropolis.demon.co.uk
Skinhead Heaven - the world would never be the same again
Alan Guest
> I guess that's true, but with most people I know they know vaguely what
> reggae is, and rastafarianism; but very few people really have anything
> besides Bob Marley stuff. They all say they love reggae, but have no
> interest in hearing anything, and maybe they'll get a copy of Peter Tosh's
> "Legalize it" or a jimmy cliff cd
>
> I mean legend has sold 40 million copies, but what reggae band has come
> close. If he was incredibly influential, a lot of reggae records would be
> selling a bit more
>
> But I guess that's really a matter of so many damn people pretending to be
> ecclectic. It seems that everyone my age loves the beatles, bob marley
> and john coltrane, but has no interest in liking any other bands that
> sound remotely like tehm
And all the coverage and imitation of Marley just makes it worse. People
only associate dreadlocks and rastas with reggae these days. Marley was
a good singer and performer but there are many good performers in
Jamaica. The gap that has been made between them and Marley is far
greater than it should be. Lee Perry made the Wailers into something
great. They made the same music before Perry but never did anything. If
Prince Buster could make it on to Ready Steady Go and into the British
charts in the 60s in preference to the Wailers then that says enough
about the Wailers. If you played the Wailers ska and rocksteady stuff
without knowing it was them I doubt if it would have the same impact as
knowing it was them.
--
Alan
al...@macropolis.freeserve.co.uk
Skinhead Heaven - the world would never be the same again
Marcus
>a big mess of a lot of different styles of music. The record companies liked
>the term because they could give it to whatever band or style that didn't
>fit in with the norm.
Just like alternative today
> As far as influencing the general public about ska I really don't think
>the Specials are that special (nice pun). I think that folks who were
>already in the know would say that the whole Two Tone stable including all
>the aforementioned bands did influence the sound of modern ska. The
>influence felt was not powered by one band alone, it was the conglomerate. I
>think you are giving the Specials far more due than they really deserve.
True, Madness and Bad Manners were playing ska before the specials, but the
specials really made it into a movement. If it wasn't for 2 tone, who knows if
madness would have even made it, ditto for the selecter and the beat
>Most of the songs on the first record were versions or covers as were the
>Beat's first effort
However, I think that the specials really took something old and made it new,
though their songs were covers, a lot of them really took something old and
gave it more value. I mean lyrically, is Birth Control better than Too Much
Too Young?? Judge Dread better than Stupid Marriage?? Al Capone better than
Gangsters?? I think the specials really had brilliant songwriting
. I would give more props to Madness as they had more
>originals in their repertoire.
On the same time, the first 2 madness singles were buster covers, and there
were some others too(it must be love etc.) ric.
> All of the Two Tone bands drifted from the hardcore ska audience to
>dabble in the Pop arena. Even Bad Manners put out a lack luster pop album in
>83. I honestly prefer Madness' later efforts than any of the other Two Tone
>bands. With the exception of "Free Nelson Mandela" the Specials AKA LP was
>horrible. I can still listen to "Keep Moving" in it's entirety.
I agree with you completely, but the fact is, that Jerry Dammers is a bit
eccentric(an understatement), and he was not happy making the same stuff and
ska was just a phase for him, however during that short time, he revolutionized
the music I personally like Madness better than thes specials, but I think that
Dammers influence is bigger than madness'
Soul Stomper
>
> About the new Oi! bands, yes there are shit ones. I
> would have to say the Ducky's and DKM are two of my favorite newer bands,
> and no I would not stop listening to them because some dipshit likes them
> too.
>
I dunno if you've heard about them before, but Montreal's
Street Troopers are certainly the best Oi! band in Canada at the moment.
Well worth checking out if they ever come to your town. Amazing live
shows too.
Oi!,
billy
Soul Stomper
>
> And all the coverage and imitation of Marley just makes it worse.
>
And how many more Marley tribute albums do they have to
release?? I mean, come on, people.
Respect,
Billy
Marcus
>Prince Buster could make it on to Ready Steady Go and into the British
>charts in the 60s in preference to the Wailers then that says enough
>about the Wailers.
That had a lot to do with their image. As prince buster was a lot more of a
pretty boy type, while the wailers were considerred rebels, I heard that's why
they didn't go to the Worlds Fair
If you played the Wailers ska and rocksteady stuff
>without knowing it was them I doubt if it would have the same impact as
>knowing it was them.
I agree to an extent. I still think it is great though. They put out a lot of
mediocre stuff, but you can't knock songs like simmerdown, jailhouse, one love,
hooligans etc.
Marcus
>
>Let's be perfectly honest. Only a small percentage of RBF fans will dig deep
>into the record bins to find the roots material. The majority will move on
>to the next big thing, which oddly enough seems to be boy bands and and all
>the other crap on TRL.
Actually the next big thing is melodic HC(if such a thing exists) and emo with
the ska punkers. the next big thing on alternative radio is rap metal core.
Anyway, yeah the fact is though, that most of the flakies have moved on, and
the ones who are left, do genuinely like the music.
You may not know this at your age(as your not still in high school), but ska is
not cool. 2 years ago, half the people in my school were into it. Now there
is one punk who kind of likes it, one ska punker, some girl who is sort of into
it, but I am the only person who really likes it.
I for one am happy that shows are getting smaller,
>more room to stagger about without bumping into too many people. As far as
>bands breaking up. Who cares, bands break up regardless of how many people
>are into the ska scene. If you believe in what you are doing you stick it
>out even if only four people show up to see you. Right now there are more
>ska (I use the term very loosely) than there has ever been in the U.S. and
>internationally.
Well the number has dropped signifigantly in the last year or two. I do agree
with you, though in 1997 when the shows were sellling out, I just wanted to say
"get those fucking alterna kids the fuck out". I remember when I was at a
pietasters concert, which was sold out, I had to spend 20 bucks to get in, it
was packed, and I dealt with a bunch of fuckers crowd surging, but now, when
there is only one club which really has ska shows, and you get about 100 people
a show, I seem to be more tolerant
I remember in the eighties when you could count the U.S.
>ska bands using your hands.
Name a year after 1985, I can name 11 bands :)
Blindly supporting crap bands just because they
>are "Ska" is bullshit and doesn't help the music any.
I'm not supporting crap bands. I don't go
to any of these shows headlined by high school ska punk bands, but on the other
hand, I don't discourage people from getting into ska
>
>You have to face the fact that RBF and their ilk i.e. Save Ferris are shit
>and they are alienating ska fans(and skins) from new ska.
When did I say I ever liked those bands. Shit, I hate them too, but the thing
is that both of them are now playing pop punk and rock with horns, so who gives
a shit. I heard(and hated) both of the bands before they were popular,
however I know people who used to like them, and then started to hate tehm
after they became popular which I think it dumb. Also I am looking at an
article from Skaville UK, published by someone who has been a skin for 20 years
saying hwo good save ferris is.
>
>The fact of the matter is this, you will always find at least one skin at a
>ska show, can you say that about punks and skaters? Maybe you can today but
>what about in ten years? Skins will always embrace ska and rocksteady and
>reggae. It is the nature of the beast.
However, a lot of them have the attitude that they own ska. I will be
listening to ska in 10 years, I don't know if that's true with a lot of the
skins.
And yes a lot of the new skins don't
>know too much about the music other than the few bands you mentioned above.
>I am still finding bands and records that I never knew about. It's called
>growing and learning. About the new Oi! bands, yes there are shit ones. I
>would have to say the Ducky's and DKM are two of my favorite newer bands,
>and no I would not stop listening to them because some dipshit likes them
>too.
I agree completely
>I really have nothing against the third wave of ska other than with any
>faddish popularity it produces mediocre music
I know, but the fad is long since over, and people are still cursing it
>I never got "into" ska, I just managed to learn more about the music that I
>had been listening to. The first ska that I was exposed to was the video for
>"One step beyond" when I was nine. I didn't know it was ska but I fucking
>loved it. I really started to learn about the music in 1985-86 when I got in
>to punk and Oi! I listened to skapunk too, the Clash and the Offs.
Well, I began to get into ska almost immeditately after I began listening to
music at all. I did own some Bosstones, Operation Ivy and Madness, before I
knew what ska was; I liked them all, and after I found out they all loosely
played the same music, I made a concious attempt to get some more.
Soul Stomper
>
> Sorry, Marcus, but Madness, the English Beat (as they're known here), *and*
> the Specials were all considered pop bands by the majority of mainstream
> America.
Agreed!! The same goes for Canada as well, mate. The extremely annoying
"retro-80s" nights at downtown clubs usually play a pop number from
either the Beat or Madness, plus maybe a ska-ish number from The
Specials.
Kill the person who invented "Retro 80s" nights. KILL!!
Respect,
Billy
Soul Stomper
>
> But I'll tell you, I think my sister must be in the dorkiest sorority at her
> school... these girls are all 21 and they talk like they're 14... they live pipe
> alcohol either, they were drinking 7-11 wine on new year's.
>
Hahahahahahahaha. Damn!! Like totally. :)
Respect,
Billy
Soul Stomper
>
> >
> I need to figure out how to killfile that trash. They keep changing thier names
> and whatnot.. and Im incredibly lazy, so for now Ill hafta just sift through it
> I guess...
>
Erin,
Someone from another ng, one that was also being trolled, posted
a message detailing who the individual is that's responsible.
Apparently,
there is also an email address to use from sending abuse complaints
to his Internet Service Provider. I believe, from reading that message,
that this individual is about to get his goose cooked, so to speak.
We can only hope.
Respect,
Billy
Upsetter
"Marcus " <ptp...@aol.communazi> wrote in message
> Just like alternative today
exactly!
> True, Madness and Bad Manners were playing ska before the specials, but
the
> specials really made it into a movement. If it wasn't for 2 tone, who
knows if
> madness would have even made it, ditto for the selecter and the beat
Again, with respects to Madness, you are making 2 tone into way too big a
player. Stiff was by far a heavier hitter with a deep stable of performers.
Names like Ian Dury (http://www.iandury.co.uk/)and the Blockheads, Nick
Lowe, the Damned, the Cockney Rejects (flares n' slippers), Elvis Costello,
etc... and where, pray tell, would the Specials be without the brilliant
production of Elvis. The fact of the matter is that Madness had a brief
contact with 2 tone and actually did succeed without their help. I think
that the way paved by the pub rock of Ian Dury plus a heavy skinhead
following combined with the Stiff label behind them made Madness the
juggernaut that they were. Although in hindsight Stiff really fucked the
band over. And probably some skins did too.
> However, I think that the specials really took something old and made it
new,
> though their songs were covers, a lot of them really took something old
and
> gave it more value. I mean lyrically, is Birth Control better than Too
Much
> Too Young?? Judge Dread better than Stupid Marriage?? Al Capone better
than
> Gangsters?? I think the specials really had brilliant songwriting
Better? No. I think the Specials pioneered a sound and used the frustration
of the time to make poignant songs that spoke the truth. This is why they
appeal to punks so much. I can't discredit their talent, I just can't place
them as the only reason ska became what it is. I look at that era as a point
in time when their were a shitload of pure genius coming out of a small
area. That first Specials LP is an example of that, as is the Beat's, as is
Madness', as is London Calling (not ska, but heavily reggae influenced). I
could compare that to the Fullerton/OC sound in '81-'83. TSOL, the
Adolescents, Agent Orange, Social Distortion. But I would never try to say
that only one of those bands defined modern Americanpunk.
> On the same time, the first 2 madness singles were buster covers, and
there
> were some others too(it must be love etc.) ric.
Every ska band of that period did a prince buster cover. I believe that the
one song they all did was "Madness". This shows the influence of the man. He
really influenced the second generation of ska more than he is given due. I
am ashamed that I didn't bring his name up in earlier postings.
> I agree with you completely, but the fact is, that Jerry Dammers is a bit
> eccentric(an understatement), and he was not happy making the same stuff
and
> ska was just a phase for him, however during that short time, he
revolutionized
> the music
He revolutionized the style, not the music.
I personally like Madness better than thes specials, but I think that
> Dammers influence is bigger than madness'
I give them equal credit as far a influencing people. As far as my personal
taste, Madness wins hands down.
Lagerskin2
>Do you have more Post 1985 Ska records or reggae records??
>
> I mean, it's not really aimed at you personally, but just people in general.
>
Marcus
>player. Stiff was by far a heavier hitter with a deep stable of performers.
>Names like Ian Dury (http://www.iandury.co.uk/)and the Blockheads, Nick
>Lowe, the Damned, the Cockney Rejects (flares n' slippers),
that actually came out on Small wonder, and I think a lot of the Damned stuff
came out on Chiswick, I don't know if they were on stiff
Elvis Costello,
>etc... and where, pray tell, would the Specials be without the brilliant
>production of Elvis. The fact of the matter is that Madness had a brief
>contact with 2 tone and actually did succeed without their help.
You have really good points, but
1) Madnesses first big shows were organized by dammers
2) Stiff was a HUGE label. Possibly the biggest indie of all time(not to
mention it was distributed by majors) it wasn't that easy to get signed to the
label. Madness, didn't get signed until after The Prince became a top 20 hit;
We don't really knwo if they would have garnered the popularity they did if not
for it
3) look at all the successful 2 tone bands. No matter how big the label was, w/
the exclusion of Bad Manners(who were on the dance craze soundtracka nyway).
There were other ska bands on stiff(equators, early bellestars) as well as
Polydor(alkrylyz) Virgin(headline) etc.etc.etc. who had ska bands, but none of
them managed to hit it big if they weren't on 2 tone at some point in time.
While the specials and the bodysnatchers were the only bands who stuck with it
through 81, and the beat and madness did OK, after they left, all of them got
their first big boost by being on 2 tone.
2 tone may have been a fad, but it's importance, is a lot bigger than you seem
to make it out be.
Marcus
>of the time to make poignant songs that spoke the truth. This is why they
>appeal to punks so much. I can't discredit their talent, I just can't place
>them as the only reason ska became what it is. I look at that era as a point
>in time when their were a shitload of pure genius coming out of a small
>area. That first Specials LP is an example of that, as is the Beat's, as is
>Madness', as is London Calling (not ska, but heavily reggae influenced). I
>could compare that to the Fullerton/OC sound in '81-'83. TSOL, the
>Adolescents, Agent Orange, Social Distortion. But I would never try to say
>that only one of those bands defined modern Americanpunk.
Your telling me that saying "gimme gimme gimme birth control" over and over
again or "Al Capone Guns Don't Argue, Don't Call me scarface, C-A-P-O-N-E,
Capone!" is better lyrically than the specials songs. I'm not saying the songs
themselves are better, but they are far from just straight covers >
>Every ska band of that period did a prince buster cover. I believe that the
>one song they all did was "Madness". This shows the influence of the man. He
>really influenced the second generation of ska more than he is given due. I
>am ashamed that I didn't bring his name up in earlier postings.
I know, but just because the specials did more covers, doesn't mean they
weren't capable of making songs, and both bands did some covers, and it only
shows that they were respecting where they came from. In actuality, Besides
"Rudi, A message to You" and Enjoy yourself, I don't think any of the specials'
A-Sided singles were straight covers, which is just as many as Madness
>
>> ska was just a phase for him, however during that short time, he
>revolutionized
>> the music
>
>He revolutionized the style, not the music.
Well, I'd say both bands revolutionized the music, Both the style(as Madness
more less invented the nutty skin by spray painting their docs, writing stuff
in bleach on their harringtons or jean jackets etc.etc.etc.); however, I think
it is fair to say that The Specials created the movement
DBM
>
>Someone from another ng, one that was also being trolled, posted
>a message detailing who the individual is that's responsible.
>Apparently,
>there is also an email address to use from sending abuse complaints
>to his Internet Service Provider. I believe, from reading that message,
>that this individual is about to get his goose cooked, so to speak.
>
>We can only hope.
>
>
>
>Respect,
>Billy
>
>
whatever.
Damn Im a lazy bitch lately..
Thank you Billy for the info
-Erin
"Weakness or strength: you exist, that is strength.... You don't know where you
are going or why you are going; go in everywhere, answer everyone. No one will
kill you, any more than if you were a corpse."--Arthur Rimbaud
Alan Guest
> If
> >Prince Buster could make it on to Ready Steady Go and into the British
> >charts in the 60s in preference to the Wailers then that says enough
> >about the Wailers.
>
> That had a lot to do with their image. As prince buster was a lot more of a
> pretty boy type, while the wailers were considerred rebels, I heard that's why
> they didn't go to the Worlds Fair
I disagree. They were stylish lickle rude bwehs like the rest of em. The
boys in the hills of Wareika were considered the rebels. Messrs Drummond
and Rodriguez and the Skatalites crew.
Soul Stomper
>
> I know, but just because the specials did more covers, doesn't mean they
> weren't capable of making songs,
>
All I have to say is The Specials second full-length LP "More
Specials" is by far their best release. Their self-titled
debut was good, but not great, at least IMHO.
Respect,
Billy
Soul Stomper
>
> ah, thats good. Now I dont have to take the extra effort to killfile him or
> whatever.
> Damn Im a lazy bitch lately..
>
> Thank you Billy for the info
>
Haha. You're welcome, Erin :) Actually today I was feelin' kinda
mean, so reported one of the trolls to Supernews abuse dept., so
will see what happens.
If interested, here is a rather informative website dealing with
the topic of tracking and nailing trolls on Usenet and elsewhere...
http://www.sputum.com/sputools.html
Take care.
Respect,
billy
Marcus
>All I have to say is The Specials second full-length LP "More
>Specials" is by far their best release. Their self-titled
>debut was good, but not great, at least IMHO.
IMO, I think the first is much better. I think there is a lot of new stuff in
the second one, but to be honest, it took me a few listens to start to like it,
and I probably wouldn't have given it a second one if I didn't know it was by
the specials. There are some great songs on it, and though it's a lot more
complex than the debut, I don't like it as much
Marcus
Pounding the Pavement
Soul-Ska-Reggae
http://www.zyworld.com/ptpzine
If you don't like it you don't have to dance-Jerry Dammers
Alan Guest
> >
> >All I have to say is The Specials second full-length LP "More Specials"
> >is by far their best release. Their self-titled debut was good, but not
> >great, at least IMHO.
>
> IMO, I think the first is much better. I think there is a lot of new
> stuff in the second one, but to be honest, it took me a few listens to
> start to like it, and I probably wouldn't have given it a second one if I
> didn't know it was by the specials. There are some great songs on it, and
> though it's a lot more complex than the debut, I don't like it as much
>
2nd LPs pretty crap if you ask me. I like 'Enjoy Yourself', 'Hey Little
Rich Girl' and 'Man at C&A' but the others are just easy listening soon
forgotten. "I can't stand it" is dire.
Soul Stomper
>
> Marcus <ptp...@aol.communazi> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >All I have to say is The Specials second full-length LP "More Specials"
> > >is by far their best release. Their self-titled debut was good, but not
> > >great, at least IMHO.
> >
> > IMO, I think the first is much better. I think there is a lot of new
> > stuff in the second one, but to be honest, it took me a few listens to
> > start to like it, and I probably wouldn't have given it a second one if I
> > didn't know it was by the specials. There are some great songs on it, and
> > though it's a lot more complex than the debut, I don't like it as much
> >
> 2nd LPs pretty crap if you ask me. I like 'Enjoy Yourself', 'Hey Little
> Rich Girl' and 'Man at C&A' but the others are just easy listening soon
> forgotten. "I can't stand it" is dire.
>
If you ask for my honest opinion, I'd say the Specials were
always crap. But anyways...
Billy