Dr. Oral Roberts dead @ 91... RIP? Does that make Pat Robertson #1 Religious hypocrite?
Taylor
A spokesman for Oral Roberts says the evangelist who rose from tent
revivals to found a multimillion-dollar organization and an Oklahoma
university bearing his name has died. He was 91.
The Associated Press, NTVLand
NEW YORK —
A spokesman for Oral Roberts says the evangelist who rose from tent
revivals to found a multimillion-dollar organization and an Oklahoma
university bearing his name has died. He was 91.
Spokesman A. Larry Ross said by phone from Carrollton, Texas, that
Roberts died Tuesday of complications from pneumonia in Newport Beach,
Calif. Roberts was hospitalized after a fall on Saturday. He had
survived two heart attacks in the 1990s and a broken hip in 2006.
Roberts overcame tuberculosis at age 17, and credited that triumph
with leading him to become one of the country's most famous ministers.
By the 1960s and '70s, the Oklahoma-born Roberts was reaching millions
around the world through broadcasting, publications and personal
appearances. Oral Roberts University, chartered in 1963, became a
Tulsa landmark.
---
It was announced today (Tuesday, Dec. 15, 2009) that legendary
evangelist Oral Roberts has died at age 91.
Here is the text of the e-mail sent Tuesday, Dec. 15, 2009, at 3:13
p.m.:
ORAL ROBERTS DIES:
Funeral Arrangements Pending for Legendary Evangelist
TULSA, Okla., December 15, 2009 – Dr. Oral Roberts, a legendary
evangelist who rose from humble beginnings to become one of the most
influential Christian leaders of the 20th century, died today in
Newport Beach, Calif., due to complications from pneumonia. His son,
Richard, and daughter, Roberta, were at his side. The founder of Oral
Roberts Evangelistic Association and Oral Roberts University was 91.
There will be a private family internment. Arrangements for a public
memorial service in Tulsa are pending and will be announced soon.
“Oral Roberts was the greatest man of God I’ve ever known,” Richard
Roberts said. “A modern-day apostle of the healing ministry, an
author, educator, evangelist, prophet, and innovator, he was the only
man of his generation to build a worldwide ministry, an accredited
university, and a medical school.
“Beloved husband, father, grandfather and great-grandfather, he was
not only my earthly father; he was my spiritual father and mentor. The
last member of his generation in the Roberts family, he had a passion
to bring healing to the sick.
“His name is synonymous with miracles. He came along when many in
Christendom did not believe in the power of God and His goodness. Oral
Roberts was known for sayings such as ‘God Is a Good God,’ ‘Expect a
Miracle,’ ‘Release Your Faith,’ and ‘Plant Your Seed for a Harvest.’
“The Bible teaches that when a Christian dies, he or she is instantly
transferred into the presence of God. The past few months, my father
has talked about going home to be with the Lord on a daily basis. He
has run his race and finished his course. Now he is in heaven, and we
as Christians have the Bible promise that someday we will be reunited.
My heart is sad, but my faith in God is soaring.”
Granville Oral Roberts was born into poverty in Bebee, Okla., on Jan.
24, 1918. He began stuttering as a young child and then, as a
teenager, contracted a potentially deadly case of tuberculosis.
Bedfast at 17, he was carried to a revival meeting by his older
brother, where a healing evangelist was praying for the sick.
On the way, he clearly heard God speak to him, saying, “Son, I am
going to heal you, and you are to take My healing power to your
generation. You are to build Me a university based on My authority and
on the Holy Spirit.”
Roberts was miraculously healed of tuberculosis and stuttering at the
revival meeting. His healing ministry was born several years later.
“If a former stuttering, tuberculosis-ridden young Indian boy in an
obscure county in Oklahoma can see the invisible and do the impossible—
and still do it—so can you!” Roberts once said.
Roberts was a legendary and beloved figure in a segment of
Christianity that emphasizes healing, speaking in tongues, and other
gifts of the Holy Spirit, as described in the New Testament.
Dr. Jack Hayford, president of the International Church of the
Foursquare Gospel, said of Roberts, “If God had not, in His sovereign
will, raised up the ministry of Oral Roberts, the entire charismatic
movement might not have occurred. Oral shook the landscape with the
inescapable reality and practicality of Jesus’ whole ministry. His
teaching and concepts were foundational to the renewal that swept
through the whole church. He taught concepts that spread throughout
the world and simplified and focused a spiritual lifestyle that is
embraced by huge sectors of today’s church.”
After his healing at age 17, Roberts spent a dozen years pastoring
churches in Oklahoma and Georgia, and preaching at revivals around the
country, while also studying at Oklahoma Baptist University and
Phillips (Okla.) University.
Then, in 1947, he founded Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association (OREA)
and began conducting crusades across America and around the world,
attracting crowds of thousands—many who were sick and dying, and in
search of healing. Through the years, he conducted more than 300
crusades on six continents. OREA officials estimate that he personally
laid hands in prayer on more than 2 million people. The ministry
continues under the leadership of Roberts’ son, Richard, who has
ministered in the U.S. and around the world for almost 30 years.
In 1954, Oral Roberts revolutionized evangelism by bringing television
cameras into services, providing what he liked to call a “front-row
seat to miracles” for millions of viewers. Years later, he began a
television program, "Oral Roberts Presents." More than 50 years later,
the ministry’s daily program, "The Place for Miracles," continues to
minister to millions on over 100 television stations, multiple cable
and satellite networks, and can be seen around the world via the
Internet.
In 1958, Roberts founded the Abundant Life Prayer Group to address the
around-the-clock needs of those suffering and requesting prayer. More
than 50 years later, prayer partners continue to receive calls from
around the world seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Over the years,
they have received more than 23 million phone calls for prayer, along
with astounding reports of miracles in answer to prayer.
Roberts answered God’s call to build an institute of higher learning
in 1963, founding Oral Roberts University on 500 acres in Tulsa, Okla.
Longtime friend Billy Graham officially dedicated ORU four years
later. In the 1970s graduate schools, including Medicine, Nursing,
Dentistry, Law, Education, and Theology, were added. Roberts served as
school president until 1993, when he became chancellor.
In 1981, Roberts founded the City of Faith Medical and Research
Center, merging the healing power of medicine and prayer. The facility
closed after eight years, leaving a lasting impact on the
understanding by many medical professionals of the importance of
treating the whole person—body, mind and spirit.
Roberts wrote more than 130 books, including such classics as "If You
Need Healing, Do These Things," and "The Fourth Man." His book "The
Miracle of Seed Faith" has more than 8 million copies in circulation.
This book’s key principles—God is your Source, sow your seed out of
your need, and expect a miracle harvest—formed a fundamental part of
Roberts’ ministry and legacy.
“After I’m gone, others will have to judge how well I’ve obeyed God’s
command not to be an echo but to be a voice like Jesus,” Roberts said.
“As far as my own conviction is concerned, I’ve tried to be that voice
with every fiber of my being, regardless of the cost.”
Roberts was preceded in death by his wife, Evelyn, a daughter and son-
in-law, Rebecca Ann and Marshall Nash; a son, Ronald David Roberts; a
grandchild, Richard Oral Roberts; his mother and father; two sisters,
Velma Roberts and Jewel Faust; and two brothers, Elmer and Vaden
Roberts.
He is survived by a son and daughter-in-law, Richard and Lindsay
Roberts; a daughter and son-in-law, Roberta and Ronald Potts, all of
Tulsa; as well as 12 grandchildren and several great-grandchildren.
In lieu of flowers, the family requests that donations be made to the
Oral Roberts Ministry Healing Missions Fund, as part of the ongoing
goal of Oral Roberts Ministries to take the saving, healing,
delivering message of the Gospel into all the world until Jesus
returns. Gifts can be sent in care of Oral Roberts Ministries, P.O.
2187, Tulsa, Okla. 74102, or online at www.OralRoberts.com
nixi...@earthlink.net
No I think Robertson was #1 before....
record hunter
wrote:
> No I think Robertson was #1 before....
I thought Osama bin Robertson had cancer. Why is he still alive?
Obveeus
"record hunter" <record...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c660e5f-d66c-4a22...@r1g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Wasn't he the guy whose very life was tied directly to how much money his
followers sent in? I guess they didn't send in enough this year.
MrBuddwing
Did he preach one thing and practice another? Please cite specifics.
This polite agnostic would like to know.
alfansome
> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
why didn't he just heal himself?????
Al
Will
"MrBuddwing" <MrBud...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c6970661-e6c2-4e2e...@x20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> Just curious to know what made Oral Roberts a hypocrite.
>
> Did he preach one thing and practice another? Please cite specifics.
>
> This polite agnostic would like to know.
Taking advantage of dumb people by saying "God will take me home" if they
didn't send him money, for starters.
record hunter
> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
No. He's still alive. Robertson, that is.
Obveeus
hmmm...and so is Bakker, Swaggart, Graham...so now I'm not sure which one of
the other televangelists kicked the bucket recently.
record hunter
> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a1be2eca-e6af-46fe...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Dec 15, 4:22 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:8c660e5f-d66c-4a22...@r1g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Dec 15, 3:56 pm, "nixie...@earthlink.net" <nixie...@earthlink.net>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> No I think Robertson was #1 before....
>
> >> > I thought Osama bin Robertson had cancer. Why is he still alive?
>
> >> Wasn't he the guy whose very life was tied directly to how much money his
> >> followers sent in? I guess they didn't send in enough this year.
>
> > No. He's still alive. Robertson, that is.
>
> hmmm...and so is Bakker, Swaggart, Graham...so now I'm not sure which one of
> the other televangelists kicked the bucket recently.
It's Oral Roberts.
Twitchell
MrBuddwing says...
>
>Just curious to know what made Oral Roberts a hypocrite.
>
>Did he preach one thing and practice another? Please cite specifics.
>
>This polite agnostic would like to know.
http://gawker.com/5427212/oral-roberts-dead-at-91
Oral Roberts has finally been killed by God for not raising enough money.
Oral Roberts was a pioneer of televangelism, and he profited handsomely from it.
Born into poverty in Oklahoma, he suffered from tuberculosis as a child, thereby
learning early on that desperately sick people are willing to part with their
money in exchange for some hope. You can make a good living this way if you
travel around and take cash directly. Roberts' innovation was in lying to
hundreds of thousands�millions!�of people at a time through the miracle of
television, and taking checks in the mail.
His show "Oral Roberts Presents" was a forum for healing the sick and
dispossessed through God's power, but God doesn't work for free. Roberts
famously told his viewers in 1987 that God was going to "call him home" if he
didn't raise $8 million from the poor dupes who believed what he said. The death
threat worked: After climbing up into a "prayer tower" and going on a hunger
strike�a "fast"�until he got his money, Roberts hit the $8 million mark.
He was worth every penny, though, because he had the rare ability to raise the
dead. When someone died in the crowd at one of his revivals, he told an audience
once, "I had to stop and go back in the crowd and raise the dead person so I
could go ahead with the service." Sadly, he couldn't pull the trick off when his
son Ronald committed suicide in 1981 after struggling with drug problems. We'd
feel bad writing glibly about the death of the man's son if not for the fact
that hundreds of thousands of people who suffered similar tragedies sent Roberts
more money than they could afford to based on his toxic and preposterous lies.
Other toxic and preposterous lies: A 900-foot-tall Jesus appeared before him and
commanded him to raise $120 million to build a hospital. The devil tried to
strangle him in his bedroom, only to be driven away by his wife. Special holy
water sprinkled on a billfold will bring prosperity. God told him he would
return from the dead to rule over the Earth.
In addition to a legacy of fraud and theft, Roberts left us Oral Roberts
University, a Christian educational institute that served as a playground for
his son Richard, who ran it, and his wife. According to a 2007 lawsuit,
Richard's wife spent school money to remodel their home 11 times in 14 years,
employ her "underaged male" friends, run up $800 cell phone bills, spend $39,000
a pop on clothes at Chico's, and fly their daughter to Orlando for spring break
on a private jet. The couple also allegedly forced professors and students to do
their daughter's homework.
Anyway, he's dead.
Obveeus
Well sure, that was in the thread title. My point was that I thought that
there was another of those 'biggies' that had died recently. Maybe I was
just thinking of the threats on Robertson to be 'called home' if his people
didn't send in enough money and I had extrapolated that out to the desired
outcome?
Kris Baker
"Twitchell" <Twitchel...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hg94j...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> http://gawker.com/5427212/oral-roberts-dead-at-91
>
> Other toxic and preposterous lies: A 900-foot-tall Jesus
> appeared before him and commanded him to raise $120
> million to build a hospital.
Which was so broke, the roofs of the towers leaked (a friend worked
there)....and part was sold off to another shifty operation: Cancer
Treatment Centers of America.
Oh, yeah. That prayer "tower"? More like a spaceship, 20
feet off the ground.
See ickiness here:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2914
Oh yeah, more. The prayer hands....and a bit of history of
that City of Faith:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/11895
Kris
MrBuddwing
> "MrBuddwing" <MrBuddw...@aol.com> wrote in message
That's arguably running a scam. It's not hypocrisy.
MrBuddwing
> In article <c6970661-e6c2-4e2e-a80f-9aa7b1b5c...@x20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> MrBuddwing says...
>
>
>
> >Just curious to know what made Oral Roberts a hypocrite.
>
> >Did he preach one thing and practice another? Please cite specifics.
>
> >This polite agnostic would like to know.
>
> http://gawker.com/5427212/oral-roberts-dead-at-91
>
> Oral Roberts has finally been killed by God for not raising enough money.
Fine, fine. You didn't like him. He ran a religious empire. He
arguably scammed his congregants.
But you still didn't answer my question. How was Roberts a hypocrite?
clouddreamer
>
> "Twitchell" <Twitchel...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:hg94j...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>> http://gawker.com/5427212/oral-roberts-dead-at-91
>>
>> Other toxic and preposterous lies: A 900-foot-tall Jesus
>> appeared before him and commanded him to raise $120
>> million to build a hospital.
>
> Which was so broke, the roofs of the towers leaked (a friend worked
> there)....and part was sold off to another shifty operation: Cancer
> Treatment Centers of America.
>
Interesting. What's shifty about them?
..
clouddreamer
Sure it is. He is spouting christian values while robbing the sheep.
Whatever happened to thou shalt not steal???
..
clouddreamer
He lied and stole while preaching so-called christian values. He was a
scumbag hypocrite.
Too bad there isn't a god...I'm guessing he would have sent Oral over to
allah just to see Oral's face when he woke up to find himself surrounded
by 42 virgins...
..
Aje.RavenStar
"Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:hg8um9$mp$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I said two things when Oral Roberts sent that particular soliciation letter,
and I'm gonna say 'em again, as I don't understand why no other member of
that particular profession ever publicly called him on it.
1), Every evangelical preacher I ever saw 3 or more Sundays eventually would
hit the theme about 'being called home to Heaven', and every one of them
would get a joyeous look on their face and stress how much they were looking
forward to that day.
But not Oral. When the word came down, he panicked and sent out a letter
begging money so he could put that day off, as he wasn't ready. Definitely
different.
2), If you took a philosophy course in high school or college, one of the
notions you will have encountered is the concept of god as 'joker' (sneaking
bones seeming to be hundreds of thousands of years old into the strata of a
planet created 10,000 years ago or less, that sort of thing). Oral Roberts,
though, is the only religious authority known to me to present and promote
the concept of god as a 'shakedown' artist.
Will
Christian values? I didn't think that I needed to mention that since it
should be a given.
tr...@iwvisp.com
>
> A spokesman for Oral Roberts says the evangelist who rose from tent
> revivals to found a multimillion-dollar organization and an Oklahoma
> university bearing his name has died. He was 91.
I vote Jerry Falwell #1.,..Dead or Alive!
Back in the days of "records" I used to tell a joke on the radio that
"I was going to play an Oral Roberts record but the hole kept healing
over."
Ray Arthur
MrBuddwing
> He lied and stole while preaching so-called christian values. He was a
> scumbag hypocrite.
>
> Too bad there isn't a god...I'm guessing he would have sent Oral over to
> allah just to see Oral's face when he woke up to find himself surrounded
> by 42 virgins...
>
OK, you're an atheist and I'm an agnostic. Can you name any devout
Christian leaders who, in your jaundiced view, walked the walk and
talked the talk and were/are true Christians?
clouddreamer
Nope. Not one. They're all hypocrites.
Though not all are scumbag hypocrites like Roberts.
..
MC
<bd49d5cd-0067-4e50...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Taylor <terraente...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Evangelist Oral Roberts dies in Calif. at age 91
Oral Roberts University is known in Tulsa as "Six Flags Over Jesus"!
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
William Bojanowski
clouddreamer <saveth...@save.money.too> wrote:
Although I am not a Christian, the Reverend Larry Rice in St. Louis,
Missouri, in my opinion, talks the talk and walks the walk.
Boj
Father Haskell
> Evangelist Oral Roberts dies in Calif. at age 91
>
> A spokesman for Oral Roberts says the evangelist who rose from tent
> revivals to found a multimillion-dollar organization and an Oklahoma
> university bearing his name has died. He was 91.
He's pining.
Not Sure
More utter hatred from the atheist side of the aisle. Thanks for
undermining yourself yet again :)
Garondo Marondo
> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:01309723-4120-4357...@g25g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 15, 5:34 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:a1be2eca-e6af-46fe...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Dec 15, 4:22 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:8c660e5f-d66c-4a22...@r1g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On Dec 15, 3:56 pm, "nixie...@earthlink.net"
> >> >> > <nixie...@earthlink.net>
> >> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> >> No I think Robertson was #1 before....
>
> >> >> > I thought Osama bin Robertson had cancer. Why is he still alive?
>
> >> >> Wasn't he the guy whose very life was tied directly to how much money
> >> >> his
> >> >> followers sent in? I guess they didn't send in enough this year.
>
> >> > No. He's still alive. Robertson, that is.
>
> >> hmmm...and so is Bakker, Swaggart, Graham...so now I'm not sure which one
> >> of
> >> the other televangelists kicked the bucket recently.
>
> > It's Oral Roberts.
>
> Well sure, that was in the thread title. My point was that I thought that
> there was another of those 'biggies' that had died recently.
Jerry Falwell.
Obveeus
"Garondo Marondo" <classic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 15, 3:26 pm, "Obveeus" <Obve...@aol.com> wrote:
>> "record hunter" <record.hun...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> hmmm...and so is Bakker, Swaggart, Graham...so now I'm not sure which
>> >> one
>> >> of
>> >> the other televangelists kicked the bucket recently.
>>
>> > It's Oral Roberts.
>>
>> Well sure, that was in the thread title. My point was that I thought that
>> there was another of those 'biggies' that had died recently.
>
>Jerry Falwell.
Thanks.
clouddreamer
So, he has no problems with gays or embryonic stem cell research? We
thought the local christian brothers were great, operating an orphanage
for boys and teaching at the schools...until decades of physical and
sexual abuse were finally allowed to come to the forefront. What you see
is not always what there is.
..
..
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.
William Bojanowski
clouddreamer <Reuse....@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
Talking the talk and walking the walk does not mean that the person
practices your version of Christianity, but his or her own, espoused
version. Reverend Larry Rice and his family do not live ostentatiously,
they serve the poor, and they practice what they preach, as far as
anyone can tell. Google the name and find out for yourself. Of course
a cynic, like yourself, believes that, because everyone of whatever
category you choose can be corrupt, they therefore must be corrupt.
What you see is not always what there is could just as easily apply to
you.
clouddreamer
I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or stem
cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
technology based on THEIR beliefs.
I have a right to be cynical. I've been hurt by "good christians" who
were never suspected of doing harm because they were "good christians."
I've been to war to see "good christians" murder civilians because they
were not christian.
Luckily, I broke free of my christian brainwashing to see it for what it
is...a religion based on lies, myth and hatred. Pretty well like all
religions. No thanks. Now, I'm free to live my life properly, according
to the laws of my country, not the laws of an ancient civilization that
didn't even know what caused lightning. To live my life doing what I
KNOW is right, not what I'm TOLD is right. To treat people as I want to
be treated regardless of their age, sex, colour, ethnicity or sexual
orientation. A "good" christian following their teachings can't do that.
They inaccurately quote Leviticus and suddenly feel justified in
treating gays as a lesser form of life yet ignore Leviticus' "life is in
the blood" which permits the use of embryonic stem cells - which have no
blood and therefore, no life. That's hypocrisy.
And freedom of expression gives me the right to tell you what I think of
christianity. You'll whine that it's hateful. Nope. It's simply how it
is. A christian can't see it any other way until they grow a set and
have the courage to question their faith.
Oh, your Rev is good "as far as anyone can tell." That just about sums
it up.
record hunter
> Luckily, I broke free of my christian brainwashing to see it for what it
> is...a religion based on lies, myth and hatred. Pretty well like all
> religions. No thanks. Now, I'm free to live my life properly, according
> to the laws of my country, not the laws of an ancient civilization that
> didn't even know what caused lightning. To live my life doing what I
> KNOW is right, not what I'm TOLD is right. To treat people as I want to
> be treated regardless of their age, sex, colour, ethnicity or sexual
> orientation. A "good" christian following their teachings can't do that.
> They inaccurately quote Leviticus and suddenly feel justified in
> treating gays as a lesser form of life yet ignore Leviticus' "life is in
> the blood" which permits the use of embryonic stem cells - which have no
> blood and therefore, no life. That's hypocrisy.
The Christians need someone to hate, so it's the gays. They're like
the Jews were to Hitler.
clouddreamer
Yup. They can't hate women, blacks or left-handed people anymore, so
they picked on the next minority group available. Gotta wonder which
group is next.
Cats!!
Oh noes.
..
Not Sure
> William Bojanowski wrote:
> > clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
>
> >> William Bojanowski wrote:
> >>> clouddreamer <savethepla...@save.money.too> wrote:
>
> >>>> MrBuddwing wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 15, 6:50 pm, clouddreamer <savethepla...@save.money.too> wrote:
> >>>>>> He lied and stole while preaching so-called christian values. He was a
> >>>>>> scumbag hypocrite.
>
> >>>>>> Too bad there isn't a god...I'm guessing he would have sentOralover to
No you haven't. You're a bigot who despises Christians and nothing you
do or say will ever change that. Continue with the venom, hater,
atheists wouldn't look so horrible without it.
Not Sure
The atheists need someone to hate, so it's the Christians. Works both
ways, fucker.
William Bojanowski
clouddreamer <Reuse....@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
> I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or stem
> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
That's because it wasn't relevant to the question of hypocrisy.
> I have a right to be cynical. I've been hurt by "good christians" who
> were never suspected of doing harm because they were "good christians."
> I've been to war to see "good christians" murder civilians because they
> were not christian.
I hope you enjoy your cynicism, but it doesn't help you or anyone else,
and is not a realistic way to look at the world.
> Luckily, I broke free of my christian brainwashing to see it for what it
> is...a religion based on lies, myth and hatred. Pretty well like all
> religions. No thanks. Now, I'm free to live my life properly, according
> to the laws of my country, not the laws of an ancient civilization that
> didn't even know what caused lightning. To live my life doing what I
> KNOW is right, not what I'm TOLD is right. To treat people as I want to
> be treated regardless of their age, sex, colour, ethnicity or sexual
> orientation. A "good" christian following their teachings can't do that.
> They inaccurately quote Leviticus and suddenly feel justified in
> treating gays as a lesser form of life yet ignore Leviticus' "life is in
> the blood" which permits the use of embryonic stem cells - which have no
> blood and therefore, no life. That's hypocrisy.
I am also free of my Christian "brainwashing" but I don't hate
Christians as a result. And don't kid yourself; there are few original
thinkers around, and I'm sure most your ideas came from what some
people, or some philosophy told you was right. People who are
"brainwashed" do not realize that fact. It is not hypocrisy to act
according to what you tell people you believe to be true. It may be
evil, or immoral, or stupid, but it's not hypocrisy.
>
> And freedom of expression gives me the right to tell you what I think of
> christianity. You'll whine that it's hateful. Nope. It's simply how it
> is. A christian can't see it any other way until they grow a set and
> have the courage to question their faith.
I never questioned your right to tell me what you think of anything. I
questioned your definition or use of the word hypocrisy.
>
> Oh, your Rev is good "as far as anyone can tell." That just about sums
> it up.
And you don't think that's true of you, or me, or anyone else either?
You obviously have quite a bit of anger, and it's obvious that it
affects the way you treat people; at least the way you communicate to
them. I don't think you would like people to be cynical about you, just
because you have rejected religion. You might want to think about that
the next time you think you're treating people the way you would like to
be treated.
Boj
clouddreamer
I treat people the way I want to be treated. Too many bible thumpers are
trying to impose their beliefs on me. That gives me the right to express
my point of view regardless of how cynical you think it is. If I want an
abortion, I should get one and not be subjected to people trying to
force THEIR beliefs on me. If I were gay and wanted to marry, I
shouldn't be forbidden to do this because of what other people belief.
If I want an embryonic stem cell treatment, I shouldn't be denied that
because of what someone else BELIEVES.
Yes, I'm sick of "good" christians thinking themselves perfect while
advocating the limiting of rights of those that don't believe. That's
hypocritical.
If your Rev believes in any of that, he is a hypocrite because a "good"
person does not force their beliefs on others.
..
Not Sure
> William Bojanowski wrote:
No one cares enough about you to impose anything, except helpful
scoops of ridicule and laughter. Again, I understand how badly you're
taking being exposed as a bigot, but you might want to curb the temper
tantrums in the future, dipshit.
Twitchell
Not Sure says...
>
>On Dec 16, 4:42=A0pm, clouddreamer <savethepla...@save.money.too> wrote:
>> William Bojanowski wrote:
>> > In article <QN-dnRUpZvMstbTWnZ2dnUVZ_gmdn...@supernews.com>,
>>
>> >> I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or ste=
>m
>> >> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
>> >> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
>> >> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
>>
>> > That's because it wasn't relevant to the question of hypocrisy.
>>
>> >> I have a right to be cynical. I've been hurt by "good christians" who
>"
>> >> I've been to war to see "good christians" murder civilians because the=
>y
>> >> were not christian.
>>
>> > I hope you enjoy your cynicism, but it doesn't help you or anyone else,
>> > and is not a realistic way to look at the world.
>>
>it
>> >> is...a religion based on lies, myth and hatred. Pretty well like all
>g
>> >> to the laws of my country, not the laws of an ancient civilization tha=
>t
>> >> didn't even know what caused lightning. To live my life doing what I
>o
>> >> be treated regardless of their age, sex, colour, ethnicity or sexual
>t.
>> >> They inaccurately quote Leviticus and suddenly feel justified in
>in
>> >> the blood" which permits the use of embryonic stem cells - which have =
>no
>> >> =A0 blood and therefore, no life. That's hypocrisy.
>>
>> > I am also free of my Christian "brainwashing" but I don't hate
>al
>> > thinkers around, and I'm sure most your ideas came from what some
>> > "brainwashed" do not realize that fact. =A0It is not hypocrisy to act
>> > according to what you tell people you believe to be true. =A0It may be
>> > evil, or immoral, or stupid, but it's not hypocrisy.
>of
>> >> christianity. You'll whine that it's hateful. Nope. It's simply how it
>> >> is. A christian can't see it any other way until they grow a set and
>> >> have the courage to question their faith.
>>
>=A0I
>> > questioned your definition or use of the word hypocrisy.
>> >> Oh, your Rev is good "as far as anyone can tell." That just about sums
>> >> it up.
>>
>=A0
>> > =A0 =A0 You obviously have quite a bit of anger, and it's obvious that =
>it
>> > affects the way you treat people; at least the way you communicate to
>ust
>> > because you have rejected religion. =A0You might want to think about th=
>at
>> > the next time you think you're treating people the way you would like t=
>o
>> > be treated.
>>
>> > Boj
>>
>> I treat people the way I want to be treated. Too many bible thumpers are
>> trying to impose their beliefs on me.
>
>No one cares enough about you to impose anything, except helpful
>scoops of ridicule and laughter. Again, I understand how badly you're
>taking being exposed as a bigot, but you might want to curb the temper
>tantrums in the future, dipshit.
>
'Clouddreamer' is a troll who really doesn't want to engage in meaningful
dialog.
twitch
clouddreamer
LOL. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
>
> 'Clouddreamer' is a troll who really doesn't want to engage in meaningful
> dialog.
>
I don't engage in meaningful dialogue with trolls like you and Not Sure.
<plonk> on my new computer.
How's that for meaningful dialog?
..
Not Sure
> Twitchell wrote:
> > In article <793b649a-a6d1-40a2-af52-991f6b3be...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
Of course you don't since you don't engage in meaningful dialogue with
anyone as you're completely incapable of it.
>
> <plonk> on my new computer.
>
> How's that for meaningful dialog?
Foul ball again, since no one having the misfortune of reading your
shit believes you killfiled anyone. Continue running away, dipshit.
>
> ..
record hunter
If the Christians would stop hating...nah, couldn't happen.
William Bojanowski
Twitchell <Twitchel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
I think I agree.
Boj
Christopher Helms
Logically, the title of America's #1 religious hypocrite should fall
to Oral's son, Rectal.
clouddreamer
You're agreeing with a known troll. Just because you don't like what I
say doesn't make me a troll.
You're still brainwashed and too afraid to face the truth.
<plonk>
clouddreamer
Careful...calling a holy guy a hypocrite will get you labeled a troll by
the sheep.
;]
Rob Cibik
> On Dec 15, 6:50 pm, clouddreamer <savethepla...@save.money.too> wrote:
>
> > He lied and stole while preaching so-called christian values. He was a
> > scumbag hypocrite.
>
> > by 42 virgins...
>
> OK, you're an atheist and I'm an agnostic. Can you name any devout
> Christian leaders who, in your jaundiced view, walked the walk and
> talked the talk and were/are true Christians?
billy graham
Rob Cibik
>
> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
>
name one advanced medical breakthrough accomplished by embryonic stem
cell research. just one.
clouddreamer
It's called "research" for a reason. Applications are forthcoming. We
already have successful stem cell treatments with such procedures as
bone marrow transplants.
Unfortunately, Bush applied HIS beliefs on a nation and put back
embryonic stem cell research by more than five years globally.
Yet he has no problem with capital punishment. Another hypocrite.
Rob Cibik
> Rob Cibik wrote:
> > On Dec 16, 1:36 pm, clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
> >> I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or stem
> >> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
> >> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
> >> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
>
> > name one advanced medical breakthrough accomplished by embryonic stem
> > cell research. just one.
>
> It's called "research" for a reason. Applications are forthcoming. We
> already have successful stem cell treatments with such procedures as
> bone marrow transplants.
you wrote:
> If I want an embryonic stem cell treatment, I shouldn't be denied that
> because of what someone else BELIEVES.
embryonic stem cell research has not yielded any successful results.
adult stem cell research and placenta stem cell research have been
quite successful without destroying what many believe to be human
life.
>
> Unfortunately, Bush applied HIS beliefs on a nation and put back
> embryonic stem cell research by more than five years globally.
GWB did stop embryonic stem cell research; he stopped federal funding
of stem cell research. private enterprise was free to do all of the
stem cell research it wanted to and has done so, albeit without
federal tax dollars.
and have not produced one single successful treatment.
>
> Yet he has no problem with capital punishment. Another hypocrite.
>
not at all. if the punishment for the crime is capital punishment, the
convicted has had all of his appeals, including those that are
'automatic', heard and denied then the executive is compelled to carry
out the law.
clouddreamer
> On Dec 17, 1:12 pm, clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
>> Rob Cibik wrote:
>>> On Dec 16, 1:36 pm, clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
>>>> I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or stem
>>>> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
>>>> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
>>>> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
>>> name one advanced medical breakthrough accomplished by embryonic stem
>>> cell research. just one.
>> It's called "research" for a reason. Applications are forthcoming. We
>> already have successful stem cell treatments with such procedures as
>> bone marrow transplants.
>
> you wrote:
>
>> If I want an embryonic stem cell treatment, I shouldn't be denied that
>> because of what someone else BELIEVES.
>
> embryonic stem cell research has not yielded any successful results.
> adult stem cell research and placenta stem cell research have been
> quite successful without destroying what many believe to be human
> life.
Irrelevant. Applications will be forthcoming.
Just because a few people BELIEVE it destroys human life doesn't give
them the right to inflict that belief on those that don't. Leviticus
said Life is in the Blood - which means embryonic stem cells are not life.
That's apart from the fact that the embryonic stem cells that are used
are on their way to the incinerator anyway. Those cells have ZERO chance
of becoming life, but has the potential to improve the lives of millions
of living breathing individuals.
>
>> Unfortunately, Bush applied HIS beliefs on a nation and put back
>> embryonic stem cell research by more than five years globally.
>
> GWB did stop embryonic stem cell research; he stopped federal funding
> of stem cell research. private enterprise was free to do all of the
> stem cell research it wanted to and has done so, albeit without
> federal tax dollars.
>
> and have not produced one single successful treatment.
GWB's actions put the "research" behind five years. It's still research
with very promising applications. He had no right to inflict his BELIEFS
on the research.
>
>> Yet he has no problem with capital punishment. Another hypocrite.
>>
>
> not at all. if the punishment for the crime is capital punishment, the
> convicted has had all of his appeals, including those that are
> 'automatic', heard and denied then the executive is compelled to carry
> out the law.
How many have been taken off dead row because of DNA testing? How many
were executed before they were cleared????
It's cheaper to keep them in prison for life and doesn't risk killing an
innocent person.
GWB inhibited research that could improve the lives of hundreds of
millions, yet had no problem murdering people in what was already proven
to be a flawed system.
Not to mention the tens of thousands of innocent people killed by his
little escapade into Iraq.
Makes him a hypocrite.
Not Sure
> Rob Cibik wrote:
> > On Dec 17, 1:12 pm, clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
> >> Rob Cibik wrote:
> >>> On Dec 16, 1:36 pm, clouddreamer <Reuse.Recy...@nd.Reduce.now> wrote:
> >>>> I notice you didn't answer the question about his views on gays or stem
> >>>> cells. Yup. Christians are good except when it comes to denying gays
> >>>> equal rights or denying non-christians access to advanced medical
> >>>> technology based on THEIR beliefs.
> >>> name one advanced medical breakthrough accomplished by embryonic stem
> >>> cell research. just one.
> >> It's called "research" for a reason. Applications are forthcoming. We
> >> already have successful stem cell treatments with such procedures as
> >> bone marrow transplants.
>
> > you wrote:
>
> >> If I want an embryonic stem cell treatment, I shouldn't be denied that
> >> because of what someone else BELIEVES.
>
> > embryonic stem cell research has not yielded any successful results.
> > adult stem cell research and placenta stem cell research have been
> > quite successful without destroying what many believe to be human
> > life.
>
> Irrelevant. Applications will be forthcoming.
Prove it, liar.
>
> Just because a few people BELIEVE it destroys human life doesn't give
> them the right to inflict that belief on those that don't.
But those who don't get to inflict it on those who do, yes? What a
hypocrite you are.
Leviticus
> said Life is in the Blood - which means embryonic stem cells are not life.
>
> That's apart from the fact that the embryonic stem cells that are used
> are on their way to the incinerator anyway. Those cells have ZERO chance
> of becoming life, but has the potential to improve the lives of millions
> of living breathing individuals.
Your lack of proof is again absolutely hilarious. Maybe you should go
back to "arguing" global warming; at least there's evidence there,
regardless of whether it's completely fixed.
>
>
>
> >> Unfortunately, Bush applied HIS beliefs on a nation and put back
> >> embryonic stem cell research by more than five years globally.
>
> > GWB did stop embryonic stem cell research; he stopped federal funding
> > of stem cell research. private enterprise was free to do all of the
> > stem cell research it wanted to and has done so, albeit without
> > federal tax dollars.
I notice you didn't respond to the devastating fact that Bush didn't
outlaw stem cell research, he just restricted federal funding of most
(not all) of it. Again, try responding to what's actually written and
maybe you won't be so quick to completely humiliate yourself.
>
> > and have not produced one single successful treatment.
>
> GWB's actions put the "research" behind five years.
Please pull a more realistic statistic from your well-used asshole,
liar.
It's still research
> with very promising applications. He had no right to inflict his BELIEFS
> on the research.
Sure he did. He's the President and it's tax money. Just get to Earth?
>
>
>
> >> Yet he has no problem with capital punishment. Another hypocrite.
>
> > not at all. if the punishment for the crime is capital punishment, the
> > convicted has had all of his appeals, including those that are
> > 'automatic', heard and denied then the executive is compelled to carry
> > out the law.
>
> How many have been taken off dead row because of DNA testing? How many
> were executed before they were cleared????
Hard to say. What isn't hard to say is that murderers deserve far less
regard than fetuses. Only a deranged idiot like you would believe
otherwise.
>
> It's cheaper to keep them in prison for life and doesn't risk killing an
> innocent person.
That's quite all right. Killers can be sent to die, and dipshits like
you who fret over their welfare can continue having strokes because of
it.
>
> GWB inhibited research that could improve the lives of hundreds of
> millions,
Now it's hundreds of millions. Why not go all the way with the lie and
claim that it's trillions?
yet had no problem murdering people in what was already proven
> to be a flawed system.
There was one federal prisoner killed during his Presidency. Remember
Timothy McVeigh? Feeling sorry for him now, abortion-advertisement?
>
> Not to mention the tens of thousands of innocent people killed by his
> little escapade into Iraq.
Yes, the tens of thousands of innocents that your Muslime terrorist
heroes slaughtered in Iraq were innocent. Ouch, did you really mean to
admit that? Big mistake :)
>
> Makes him a hypocrite.
You're really losing your cool here, imbecile. The question posed to
you was why you're such a hateful bigot against Christians, not stem
cell research, not Iraq, and not capital punishment. It's becoming
clearer to me why you plonk people so quickly: if you don't do it, you
end up coming off like sounding like an incoherent and hysterical
hyena. Oh well, at least you're entertaining ;)
trotsky
...said the anonyshit. At what point did you realize you were past the
point of embarrassment?
Not Sure
Probably the first time I responded to you, but you keep cumming back
for more. Back to Steven's crotch for you :)
trotsky
What do you do in real life, fred titmouse? God help us, I sure hope
you're not around children in your professional life. Are you on food
stamps, maybe?