False Memory Syndrome
Trish Hurley
Hi there.
I am a fourth year Journalism student doing my thesis on False Memory
Syndrome. I have done lots of research on the topic so far, but I am
always willing to hear about new research.
I am looking for anyone who knows anything on Therapists vs.
psychiatrists, the long professional debate.
I would also like to talk with anyone who has had a memory of an abusive
event in their childhood. I want to talk with anyone from the
foundation, or anyone against the foundation.
I will be honest. This is for a radio documentary. I want to tape our
interview. BUT, what I am allowed to offer in such a sensitive area is
that I can change your name for my piece. BUT to make sure I am not
lying, and making my sources up, my supervisor will need your real name
and telephone number. This will NOT be published anywhere, or given to
anyone. They will probably never contact you, it is just to ensure I do my
research properly.
Trish Hurley
thu...@ccs.carleton.ca
Velveteen Rabbit
False Memory Syndrome promotes the interests of victimizers and is very
harmful to efforts of protecting children from sexual abuse and to
helping adult survivors.
False Memory Syndrome is a defense used by victimizers. It is promoted
by the False Memory Society which is made up of alleged perpetrators of
sexual abuse. The idea is that false memories of sexual abuse can be
"planted" during therapy and that memories of sexual abuse cannot be
repressed. This is then used as a defense against sexual abuse allegations.
I believe that false accusations of sexual abuse do happen but as far as
"False Memory Syndrome" is concerned I am very skeptical of its validity
for the following reasons:
- False Memory Syndrome is not recognized as a valid diagnosis.
- Anyone who says repressed memories don't exist has never had a
flashback or doesn't understand what a flashback is.
- As far as I know, FMS does not address other trauma issues. They do
not offer alternative explanations for dissociative disorders, post-traumatic
stress disorder, multiple-personality disorder, etc. I have never heard
of any of these explained within the context of FMS. How do they
explain all the evidence of trauma in adult survivors? I believe they
seem to ignore this important issue.
- FMS seems to address repressed memories only within the context of
sexual abuse, presumably because this is where the Society has a vested
interest. What about repressed memories of other types of trauma, such
as a child witnessing a murder? Why do people who doubt repressed
memories exist doubt them in only one area?
Velveteen Rabbit
--
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Doug Sojourner
*** FMS Discussion
**************************************************
[Other good points omitted]
Velveteen> - FMS seems to address repressed memories only within the
Velveteen> context of sexual abuse, presumably because this is where
Velveteen> the Society has a vested interest. What about repressed
Velveteen> memories of other types of trauma, such as a child
Velveteen> witnessing a murder? Why do people who doubt repressed
Velveteen> memories exist doubt them in only one area?
Well put. Thanks for your post.
Doug Sojourner
dsojo...@cdc.hp.com
Roy S Rapoport
Velveteen Rabbit <anon...@twwells.com> wrote:
->*** FMS Discussion **************************************************
->
->
->False Memory Syndrome promotes the interests of victimizers and is very
->harmful to efforts of protecting children from sexual abuse and to
->helping adult survivors.
FMS, as in all sorts of watering down of traumatic experiences, is a
double-edged sword. It hurts both sides -- both individuals who are accused
of being perps, and the whole survivor movement as a whole, because the
fact/concept that _some_ people may experience FMS is seen to imply somehow,
by the great CW logic, that _all_ repressed memories / flashbacks are FMSs.
This is, needless to say, a non-good thing.
->I believe that false accusations of sexual abuse do happen but as far as
->"False Memory Syndrome" is concerned I am very skeptical of its validity
->for the following reasons:
->
->- False Memory Syndrome is not recognized as a valid diagnosis.
Until some time ago, homosexuality _was_ recognized as a valid disease. The
fact that something is defined to be valid or not by any sort of society /
community does not necessarily make it so, does it?
->- Anyone who says repressed memories don't exist has never had a
->flashback or doesn't understand what a flashback is.
Very true - but nobody is saying that all repressed memories don't exist.
Some people are saying that _SOME_ "repressed memories" are actually FMS.
Is it possible that the 'true' answer lies somewhere in between -- that not
all repressed memories are FMS and not all FMS is repressed memories? Is it
possible we could compromise like this?
->- FMS seems to address repressed memories only within the context of
->sexual abuse, presumably because this is where the Society has a vested
->interest. What about repressed memories of other types of trauma, such
->as a child witnessing a murder? Why do people who doubt repressed
->memories exist doubt them in only one area?
I think that the FMS Society cares most about this field of FMS because
that's where there's the most potential for innocent victims -- few
therapists would encourage a patient to remember a murder as an explanation
of all hir problems (the series of articles I saw about FMS indicated that a
majority of the responsibility lay with unscrupulous therapists) ... I seem
to remember at least one case of a woman claiming her father killed her
friend 30 years before the accusation; I'm not sure what the outcome of the
case was.
Frankly, sex is politicized, as is sexual abuse because it's such a hot
button for so many of us. In a society that at least superficially abhors
child abuse (and especially child sexual abuse), a child witnessing a murder
is no big thing. A child being molested is a far more serious thing. Of
course, it also seems that more children are abused than witness murders.
-roy
Practi-Col Services
Roy S Rapoport <r...@soda.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>Very true - but nobody is saying that all repressed memories don't exist.
You couldn't tell it from speaking to the FMS members I have spoken to on the
topic. At best, they will concede that somewhere _out there_ there may be
isolatid incidents of repressed memories, but all the ones which have come to
their attention were actually FMS. One went to go so far as to say that there
may be some isolated incidents of _abuse_, but systematic memory repression
simply does not happen. So I have heard one representative (local) of the FMS
say that repressed memories don't exist.
>Some people are saying that _SOME_ "repressed memories" are actually FMS.
>Is it possible that the 'true' answer lies somewhere in between -- that not
>all repressed memories are FMS and not all FMS is repressed memories? Is it
>possible we could compromise like this?
The FMS doesn't even aregue that _SOME_ repressed memories are actually FMS,
but that _MOST_ or _ALL_ repressed memories are false.
I know for a fact that it is possible to induce false memories. However, it
is not shown that there is a systematic induction going on, nor is this
"syndrome" demonstrated.
--
======= Daniel B. Holzman =======
PSI pays me to run computers, not write press releases. As far as I know, they
don't have any opinions.
Blessed Be.
anon...@twwells.com
one
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(what comes after twelve? Oh well, start again...)
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Sigh...
Obviously, perpetrators will do anything they can to put the blame back
on the victim. False Memory Syndrome is a convenient tool for them...
It would be nice to dismiss False Memory Syndrome out of hand, but there
really are some valid issues here. I started a graduate program in cognitive
psychology, and memory was a major area of study.
There has been psychological research on courtroom questioning which indicates
that the line of questioning can affect people's memories of events. For
instance, people who viewed a film of a traffic accident were asked if a
car stopped at the stop sign. Later they remembered the stop sign, even
though there was none in the film.
Subjects who simply related as much as they could remember in chronological
order and full detail were quite accurate.
Other research on courtroom evidence has examined memories obtained under
hypnosis; as a result of this research such evidence is usually not admissable
in court. The results: people remember a lot more under hypnosis, period.
Many of these memories are true, many are false. The percentage of accurate
memories is less under hypnosis than otherwise, and once someone has remembered
something under hypnosis they are almost certain to believe it thoroughly as
though it happened regardless of the truth.
The theory runs something like this: memory is always creative. When you
ask yourself what happened, part of you starts making up stories and another
part of you, the critic, assesses how likely it is that each of the stories
is true. In general, the critic only lets out the stories that are veryl
likely to be true. Under hypnosis the critic is suppressed, and memories
just come bubbling out. Expressing these memories tends to build vivid
images in your memory which tell the critic later that the event probably
did happen.
I am not aware of any trustworthy studies examining memories of serious
trauma like childhood sexual abuse in this context. I could easily believe
that this kind of memory is not as easily influenced as a memory of having
seen a stop sign in a film. Actually, doing a valid study of this issue
is probably almost impossible since you would have to really know what
happened in order to decide who is right. In most cases there is little
evidence.
Trish Hurley
I guess I did not make myself clear, and I appologize form the start.
It was not my intention to make people think I support the FMS!!!!! ON
the contrary, I am trying to remain as unbiased as possible. I am doing a
thesis though, and I have to present both sides of the issus.
I want to talk with survivors becasue I WILL BELIEVE YOU. That is why I
want to talk with you, so I can use you in my thesis to show the
foundation has some very shakey theories.
In no way did I want to offend anyone.
I think recovered memories, or disassociated memories are possible. That
is why I want to talk with people who have had this experiece.
I hope I made myself more clear?!!
Trish Hurley
thu...@ccs.carleton.ca
boy brent
>Oh Dear.
>I guess I did not make myself clear, and I appologize form the start.
>It was not my intention to make people think I support the FMS!!!!! ON
>the contrary, I am trying to remain as unbiased as possible. I am doing a
>thesis though, and I have to present both sides of the issus.
>I want to talk with survivors becasue I WILL BELIEVE YOU. That is why I
>want to talk with you, so I can use you in my thesis to show the
>foundation has some very shakey theories.
>In no way did I want to offend anyone.
i think that your expectations were a little naive. FMS is a group
dedicated to invalidating our realities and discounting our truths.
This is as personal and as invasive as the original abuse. The original
abuse involved not only disrespecting our physical boundries, but our
mental ones as well, telling us what to think and who not to talk to.
They turned our realities on their heads and taught us that black was
white. Now we're striving to move away from being victims and take
control back of our lives, and along comes FMS to further undermine
our realities and in essence recreate the circumstances of our original
abuse. Look beyond their questionable methods, however, and examine
the personal histories of the founders of the group, and you'll see
that they are locked in denial of the sexual abuse they've been accused
of by their daughter.
>I think recovered memories, or disassociated memories are possible. That
>is why I want to talk with people who have had this experiece.
My flashbacks have felt very much like they were there all the time,
but i hadn't revisited those memories since i was a child. As such
i still had a child's perspective of them, which was confusion.
When i later replayed those same memories (which were not new) many
years later as an *adult*, however, i realized for the first time what
REALLY happened, and what it meant. i have absolutely no doubt that
the memories are of things that really did happen, and the amount of
detail i can recall is really pretty extensive. Furthermore i have
been able to independently cross check some details of the memories,
and in every instance i'm finding my recollections to be accurate.
i have been very cautious in this, and have taken great care to be
SURE that what i am remembering is the truth. i would not want to
accuse anyone unjustly.
--
boy brent B4 htm[csegk]++ |
bca...@agora.rain.com (gay stuff) | This person temporarily closed for repairs
bca...@atlas.com (telecom stuff) |
Winnie
recall a post some weeks ago, suggesting that asarians read a two part
article in SCIENCE_NEWS. And, I have been able to glance at the TIME
article (November 29, 1993 - Yes, Generalisimo Franco and Sigmund Freud
are both still dead.)
Reactions:
- One file card from my head recalls SN quote (sorry, not being
academic and citing author, volume, page number, last bowel movement)
WAIT
** SPOILER ALERT **
Respect for Asarian Practices, no longer can use newness as excuse!
some more
"Childhood sexual abuse is almost the perfect crime, because it is
"Childhood sexual abuse is almost the perfect crime, because it is
so rarely confronted" (Shouldn't have quotes, because paraphrased
from memory.
I like the statement, memory is creative and the idea that the
Critic is more suppressed by hypnosis.
My 'memory' says I was abused at about age 5. Does that mean I
had to have it all defensible if I could have told then???
I liked boy brent statements. Ditto. I have been very careful
about statements, but not careful enough. I told my father about
my uncle. (skips = sobs by inside as I write).
My father said he believed me, because the detail I was able to
recall about the day almost forty years ago coincided with his
memory. Then he confronted my uncle about it (without my sayso)
and my uncle denied. Should I get an application to the "Foundation"
for my U.N.C.L.E.
It's scary NOW, that there are many people wanting to still deny
my memories, rape my mind again, alter reality, etc.
At first, I thought how noble of Thurley to come and ask. Tell
the other side. Then I think it sells. I read that in another
post. So Thurley, take your well meant request and leave asar.
Lurkers, steal the TIME edition if you want to read the article!
Enough, I hurt. Go away.
Bernadette Bosky
discussion is that studies show that most kinds of major trauma--including
witnessing murder and being in a major car accident--generally are *not*
suppressed. Some details will be suppressed (though even that is more
rare than I'd thought), but the fact that it happened is not.
This seems to me to be a false analogy, though: *of course* an
event would be less likely to be suppressed if it carried ongoing
evidence, visible to everyone and commonly accepted, that the event had
happened! That is, someone in a horrible car accident will be reminded of
the event when she gets the car junked, when she buys the new car, every
time she drives the new car--this roots the event in reality, no matter
how much one would like it to be otherwise. With sexual abuse, the case
is pretty much the opposite, with all possible evidence erased and nothing
to link the events to the rest of one's life.
Bernadette Bosky
Bernadette Bosky
>Velveteen Rabbit <anon...@twwells.com> wrote:
>->*** FMS Discussion **************************************************
>->
>
>->
>->"False Memory Syndrome" is concerned I am very skeptical of its validity
>->for the following reasons:
>->
>->- Anyone who says repressed memories don't exist has never had a
>->flashback or doesn't understand what a flashback is.
>
>Very true - but nobody is saying that all repressed memories don't exist.
>Some people are saying that _SOME_ "repressed memories" are actually FMS.
>Is it possible that the 'true' answer lies somewhere in between -- that not
>all repressed memories are FMS and not all FMS is repressed memories? Is it
>possible we could compromise like this?
>
exist--that either you recalled it all along or it's FMS. This is
probably an extremist position, but I've heard it from more than one
qualified (or seemingly qualified) person. When they support it with
arguments at all, the main ones seem to be (1) that there is no known
mechanism that can account for repressed memories, and (2) in studies of
most kinds of traumatic memory, there is no repression.
It seems to me beyond doubt that this extremist position, at
least, is untrue. Even if we don't yet know how or why, the existence of
repressed memories of trauma is pretty clear.
On the other hand, I do think that uncovering repressed memories
is a difficult process, and that one can get confused and treat as purely
accurate a memory which could be symbolic, or a conflation of other
memories, or something you were told about, or whatever. And I do think
that some (certainly not most, perhaps not even many, but some) do ask
leading questions, and even (though I find this almost incedible, it does
go on) just tell clients "oh you must have been sexually abused; I can tell."
I highly recomment the cover story of *Science News* on sexual
abuse and repressed memories. (I'm not sure what issue--within the past
six months, I'm pretty sure.) On the one hand, it has amazing evidence
that recovery of repressed memory is real, including a followup study of
actual sexual abuse cases (many of whom had totally forgotten the incident
within a few years) and one incident in which a woman, dealing with
memories just coming back, found her perp's journal with detailed accounts
of what went on. On the other hand, there is an equally-convincing
account of someone temporarily buying her therapist's agenda, and (despite
constant feelings of unease) actually confronting her parents--but a few
months after changing to a new therapist, realizing it had not been true.
Anyone reading the Science News piece, I think, would come to the
final conclusions that (1) repression of memory, and recovery of repressed
memories, do exist,(2) reaching false conclusions about what went on also
exists, and (3) we don't know the physiological processes involved in any
of it, really.
I personally wish that people would quit being so binary in this
discussion (are the menories real *or* false) and start being mroe careful
and flexible in considering all options--in general, or in any specific
cases. Unfortunately, I really don't see this happening for a few years
yet. There's too much extremism and backlash to process first, I think.
This is am important topic culturally, I think--I know it's
important for me personally. And I'm glad to be able to talk about it
here. That is, I hope I can talk about my thoughts without upsetting
others. If it is bothersome, of course, I can always take it elsewhere.
Bernadette Bosky
Ed Carp
: In article <ecarpCH...@netcom.com>, Ed Carp <ec...@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Bernadette Bosky (b...@panix.com) wrote:
: >: >*** FMS Discussion
: >: >**************************************************
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
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: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: >
: >: Actually, one of the points on this (FMS exists) side of the
: >: discussion is that studies show that most kinds of major trauma--including
: >: witnessing murder and being in a major car accident--generally are *not*
: >: suppressed. Some details will be suppressed (though even that is more
: >: rare than I'd thought), but the fact that it happened is not.
: >: This seems to me to be a false analogy, though: *of course* an
: >: event would be less likely to be suppressed if it carried ongoing
: >: evidence, visible to everyone and commonly accepted, that the event had
: >: happened! That is, someone in a horrible car accident will be reminded of
: >: the event when she gets the car junked, when she buys the new car, every
: >: time she drives the new car--this roots the event in reality, no matter
: >: how much one would like it to be otherwise. With sexual abuse, the case
: >: is pretty much the opposite, with all possible evidence erased and nothing
: >: to link the events to the rest of one's life.
: >Strongly disagree. With a sexual abuse survivor, sometimes even the little
: >things others might do - like brushing one's teeth, putting on clothes,
: >taking a shower, might be reminders of abuse. The circumstances - events,
: >tastes, smells, sights, sounds - all can provide triggers to a survivor of
: >abuse. So, it is *more* strongly linked to the rest of a survivor's life -
: >and the longer the abuse went on, the more likely this will be so.
: Ed, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
: I was referring to what happens *when the experiences are first
: repressed*--that is, when the abuse is happening (or has recently
: happened) and the memories are buried. The victim wants to repress it,
: because it's too scarey and/or dangerous; and the perp certainly wants all
: indicators to go away. This, I think, helps sexual abuse be more easily
: repressed than traumas that have more unavoidable effects?
: Is that clear now?
: What you're talking about is *a long time later*, when the
: situation has changed enough for the memories to be recovered. And then,
: yes, that kind of feeling (which I sometimes call "ghosts") is one of the
: ways the memories come back. I'm all too familiar with that part, Ed.
Ah, thanks for the clarification - I ovbiously misunderstood. And I agree
with what you said, now. :)
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG e...@wetware.com 510/659-9560
an3...@anon.penet.fi, anon...@twwells.com
If you want magic, let go of your armor. Magic is so much stronger than
steel! -- Richard Bach, "The Bridge Across Forever"
Ed Carp
: In article <2d077m$f...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
: Roy S Rapoport <r...@soda.berkeley.edu> wrote:
: >In article <CH07...@twwells.com>,
: >Velveteen Rabbit <anon...@twwells.com> wrote:
: >->*** FMS Discussion **************************************************
: >->
: >
: >->
: >->I believe that false accusations of sexual abuse do happen but as far as
: >->"False Memory Syndrome" is concerned I am very skeptical of its validity
: >->for the following reasons:
: >->
: <snip>
: >->- Anyone who says repressed memories don't exist has never had a
: >->flashback or doesn't understand what a flashback is.
: >
: >Very true - but nobody is saying that all repressed memories don't exist.
: >Some people are saying that _SOME_ "repressed memories" are actually FMS.
: >Is it possible that the 'true' answer lies somewhere in between -- that not
: >all repressed memories are FMS and not all FMS is repressed memories? Is it
: >possible we could compromise like this?
: I personally wish that people would quit being so binary in this
: discussion (are the menories real *or* false) and start being mroe careful
: and flexible in considering all options--in general, or in any specific
: cases. Unfortunately, I really don't see this happening for a few years
: yet. There's too much extremism and backlash to process first, I think.
The problem is, it's a VERY highly charged, emotional issue for most people,
especially survivors. Coupled with the fact that sexual mores and attitudes
in our society are so sick as to be almost disgustingly neurotic, and OF COURSE
it's going to be a pretty binary discussion - and very polarizing.
As for the FMS people, methinks they dost protest too much - why would they be
so insistent on "there's no such thing" if they didn't have something to hide?
Why would anyone be interested in attempting to discredit a survivor's story
and memories unless the person doing the discrediting were a perp?
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG ec...@netcom.com 510/659-9560
Ed Carp
: In article <DOUG.93No...@bree.cdc.hp.com>,
Strongly disagree. With a sexual abuse survivor, sometimes even the little
things others might do - like brushing one's teeth, putting on clothes,
taking a shower, might be reminders of abuse. The circumstances - events,
tastes, smells, sights, sounds - all can provide triggers to a survivor of
abuse. So, it is *more* strongly linked to the rest of a survivor's life -
and the longer the abuse went on, the more likely this will be so.
Bernadette Bosky
>Bernadette Bosky (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>: >*** FMS Discussion
>: >**************************************************
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: discussion is that studies show that most kinds of major trauma--including
>: witnessing murder and being in a major car accident--generally are *not*
>: suppressed. Some details will be suppressed (though even that is more
>: rare than I'd thought), but the fact that it happened is not.
>: This seems to me to be a false analogy, though: *of course* an
>: event would be less likely to be suppressed if it carried ongoing
>: evidence, visible to everyone and commonly accepted, that the event had
>: happened! That is, someone in a horrible car accident will be reminded of
>: the event when she gets the car junked, when she buys the new car, every
>: time she drives the new car--this roots the event in reality, no matter
>: how much one would like it to be otherwise. With sexual abuse, the case
>: is pretty much the opposite, with all possible evidence erased and nothing
>: to link the events to the rest of one's life.
>
>Strongly disagree. With a sexual abuse survivor, sometimes even the little
>things others might do - like brushing one's teeth, putting on clothes,
>taking a shower, might be reminders of abuse. The circumstances - events,
>tastes, smells, sights, sounds - all can provide triggers to a survivor of
>abuse. So, it is *more* strongly linked to the rest of a survivor's life -
>and the longer the abuse went on, the more likely this will be so.
Ed, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
I was referring to what happens *when the experiences are first
repressed*--that is, when the abuse is happening (or has recently
happened) and the memories are buried. The victim wants to repress it,
because it's too scarey and/or dangerous; and the perp certainly wants all
indicators to go away. This, I think, helps sexual abuse be more easily
repressed than traumas that have more unavoidable effects?
Is that clear now?
What you're talking about is *a long time later*, when the
situation has changed enough for the memories to be recovered. And then,
yes, that kind of feeling (which I sometimes call "ghosts") is one of the
ways the memories come back. I'm all too familiar with that part, Ed.
Bernadette Bosky
sprout
[...]
> On the other hand, I do think that uncovering repressed memories
>is a difficult process, and that one can get confused and treat as purely
>accurate a memory which could be symbolic, or a conflation of other
>memories, or something you were told about, or whatever. And I do think
>that some (certainly not most, perhaps not even many, but some) do ask
>leading questions, and even (though I find this almost incedible, it does
>go on) just tell clients "oh you must have been sexually abused; I can tell."
You bring up something that has been troubling to me. I checked myself
into a psychiatric hospital, and after filling out a million evaluations
and whatnot, and after about two weeks of group therapy and twice-or-so
weekly meetings with my social worker/therapist, she asked me straight
out if I'd ever been sexually abused. I said no, surely I'd remember
that. She said something to the effect that I showed all the classic
indications, and handed me a checklist from Courage To Heal or something.
I looked over the checklist and thought, naaah, I only fit maybe half
these things, and told her so. She asked me again a week later. As
I walked out of her office after that (very intense) session, I had
a sudden image of someone (who I was/am sure is my mother) touching
me inappropriately as a baby. Two days later I went to an SIA meeting
(in the hospital, but with mostly outside people), and afterwards had
my first panic attack, and had another memory, less explicit but
troubling.
I couldn't believe the memories though, I had never heard of FMS
but I thought "This was suggested to me, I'm making it all up".
Two years later, when I was reading a lot about children and
starting to feel a lot of compassion for the child I had been,
I started to have more memories. Still nothing very coherent,
but I now very much believe that before I was 1 I was sexually
abused by my mother.
Mine is just one story, but I think it holds the key to many others:
we tend to disbelieve our own memories very strongly until there is
no longer any way to escape accepting them. We censor ourselves
so strongly, it seems, that we hardly need the FMS around to add
to the burden.
Do you really think that my therapist was being irresponsible?
I'm not so sure... nowadays, knowing a lot more about myself
and what words like "nightmare" mean (I didn't realize that the
dreams I was having every night were nightmares, so the nightmare
item in the list wouldn't have been checked-off by me), I realize
that I can in fact check off almost everything on that list...
my world was that of a survivor -- most of my fears and so on
had long since been rationalized as something everyone must experience.
I needed someone to tell me that they weren't, and offer me
some explanation for why I had them...
What do you asar-folk think my therapist should have said?
Nothing? She should have simply treated the symptoms and
hoped that after a while I'd start having memories, if there
were memories to be had?
> I highly recomment the cover story of *Science News* on sexual
>abuse and repressed memories. (I'm not sure what issue--within the past
>six months, I'm pretty sure.) On the one hand, it has amazing evidence
>that recovery of repressed memory is real, including a followup study of
>actual sexual abuse cases (many of whom had totally forgotten the incident
>within a few years) and one incident in which a woman, dealing with
>memories just coming back, found her perp's journal with detailed accounts
>of what went on. On the other hand, there is an equally-convincing
>account of someone temporarily buying her therapist's agenda, and (despite
>constant feelings of unease) actually confronting her parents--but a few
>months after changing to a new therapist, realizing it had not been true.
I'm glad you describe this the way you do... I haven't read the piece,
but the "constant feelings of unease" are exactly what keep most of us
from admitting to our abuse until we are bombarded by enough memories
so we can no longer deny the reality of it. The fact that if something
isn't true, we "know" it isn't (although we may be denying our own
knowledge), seems to me to be the strongest argument for ignoring
the FMS people.
> Anyone reading the Science News piece, I think, would come to the
>final conclusions that (1) repression of memory, and recovery of repressed
>memories, do exist,(2) reaching false conclusions about what went on also
>exists, and (3) we don't know the physiological processes involved in any
>of it, really.
> I personally wish that people would quit being so binary in this
>discussion (are the menories real *or* false) and start being mroe careful
>and flexible in considering all options--in general, or in any specific
>cases. Unfortunately, I really don't see this happening for a few years
>yet. There's too much extremism and backlash to process first, I think.
>
> This is am important topic culturally, I think--I know it's
>important for me personally. And I'm glad to be able to talk about it
>here. That is, I hope I can talk about my thoughts without upsetting
>others. If it is bothersome, of course, I can always take it elsewhere.
>
>Bernadette Bosky
I believe that there are therapists with agendas -- any therapist
who is a survivor and hasn't dealt with it is likely to be a
lousy therapist. I believe there are "false memories". But most of
all I believe that, in general, people KNOW whether a memory is true
or not, whether an explanation is true or not, because they will
have undeniable powerful feelings associated with "true" memories, even
if the details aren't dead on.
I agree we should keep talking about it, if only to keep it firmly in
mind that our experiences are real no matter what anyone says.
Thanks for writing about this in a whole-person way; I hope I have
managed to do likewise.
sprout
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Amy York
Fellow friends...
I have read this thread through and through and think only one thing:
that the people who promote FMS do it to incite this type of confusion
amongst survivors and the general public.
As survivors, it is not as easy for us to agree with the false memory
syndrome because WE have our own experiences to go on which for most of
us feel so real. It does hurt us though... most of us have led our
lives in secrecy and fear partly because we thought that what we told
would not be believed and also that we would be hurt for telling. Now
as adults we are trying to not live in secret anymore and tell of these
things so that we can reclaim what we have lost. To be told that what I
remember may not be true hurts and angers me deeply because this is
exactly the response I feared as a child. In fact this WAS the response
I got as a child when I told someone close... "You must be making it
up" he said. I think each of us has to come to terms with what we
remember and accept that these things are true. I know for me I wish
all the time that the things I remember WOULD NOT be true. The general
public of course also wishes that abuse never happens. And they would
love to here an explanation which essentially rids society of this
problem.
For me I know that something bad happened because I have snatches of
terrible memories. The extent of it is NOT clear but I do know that
something bad happened and for a long time. The important thing for me
is not to focus on each memory and say things like "because this memory
is sketchy then it all must not be true." I know this is hard for us
since some of us are plagued with low self-esteem and such. But it is
absolutely critical that you believe yourself and that your therapists
and close friends and family believe you also. Otherwise you will run
into the same problems encountered as children. The last thing we need
as adults is to have our childhood fears confirmed by doubters. And we
would all be naive to thing that there aren't a few people out there who
make up stories for whatever reason. But I don't think that's the issue
here. One thing is clear, memory is a complicated process. After years
of studying artificial intelligence and neuropsychology, I am not
much closer to understanding memory repression or personality
fragmentation either. But that does NOT mean by any means that these
phenomena do not exist. We have to go by people's experience and
realities which tells us simply one thing: that what I remember is true.
If you are not able to accept that then you are putting yourself in an
bad situation. This can lead to a number of unfortunate outcomes:
self-doubt, self-hatred, etc. which we as survivors have enough problems
with anyway. Anger gets directed at self instead of being directed at
the abuser. This is not helpful for a persons recovery.
In a previous article someone wrote about a therapist in a hospital that
thought she was sexually abused. Well I can only say that some
therapists do ask leading questions. But I tend to be a beleiver that
what you remember after those types of questions arise not from you
creating false memories but rather the person who asked was a trigger
for the release of these memories. So why is a therapist a trigger and
the awful stories on newspapers and television not? Well the short
answer is that both can be triggers. But when therapists ask such
questions, they asking you directly which is more emotionally charged.
I personally don't think your therapist was too wrong, though she should
not have been so blunt about it. Therapists need to realize that abuse
survivors are maleable and vulnerable. By that I mean that we (as a
group of people) have had our minds and bodies "screwed with" by bad
people. Suddenly, everything becomes confusing for us: relationships,
trust, anger, etc. to a degree that is well beyond that which exists for
people who have not had such childhood experiences.
In sum, I will tell you a brief story which proves that traumatic events
can indeed be repressed. (This is a bit of a spoiler perhaps, but I
won't say anything upsetting, I don't think). Three years ago, my wife
was sexually assaulted. This happened in mid-January. From mid-Jan
through mid-Feb she was tired and we both thought she had mono. It was
quite sudden when the day after Valentine's Day (Feb. 15) she called me
from a hospital emergency room and told me to come over and then she
told me she was assaulted 3 weeks ago. We talked about things and she
really could not remember the assault for those three weeks and really
thought she had mono. It was after a routine GYN visit that she had a
flashback and then she ended up at the Rape Crisis Center. So, I say to
all of you who think that memories CANNOT be repressed and that they can
be false that repression is indeed possible _and_ probable.
Though I completely agree that memories when they are uncovered some can
feel very fuzzy and perhaps metaphorical but some can be and feel quite
real. As survivors, we are all suggestable and as such memories can be
a conflation of other memories. This is why I do not advocate hypnosis.
But this doesn't mean they aren't real at all. It simply means that
some memories "diffuse" over time.
I leave you with a quote from sprout's last post which I think is quite
important...
: I believe there are "false memories". But most of
: all I believe that, in general, people KNOW whether a memory is true
: or not, whether an explanation is true or not, because they will
: have undeniable powerful feelings associated with "true" memories, even
: if the details aren't dead on.
: I agree we should keep talking about it, if only to keep it firmly in
: mind that our experiences are real no matter what anyone says.
Best wishes, peace and friendship to all,
Kamin
boy brent
>What do you asar-folk think my therapist should have said?
>Nothing? She should have simply treated the symptoms and
>hoped that after a while I'd start having memories, if there
>were memories to be had?
This is what mine did. At the time of my hospitalization last year
for depression i had told my therapist that i thought daddy had
done something bad to me. i'd thought that for as long as i can
remember, but i couldn't recall anything specific except one vague
memory of a shower. Nothing happened that i could recall, but it
felt bad. At that time my therapist said that if there was anything
to it then it would surface with time, and we went on to focus on other
things.
About eight months later i'd made so much progress that i didn't need
therapy anymore, but she and i kept in touch from time to time.
Sure enough, just about the time i started feeling good about myself
strange dreams and little flashes of memories began to return. i
resumed regular therapy and told her what my fears were. She was
very cautious. Once i was feeling particularly tormented with
uncertainty and asked her straight out if she thought i had been
abused. She refused to answer the question in those terms, she said
there had been a lot of controversy about therapists leading their
patients on. She also said that she didn't think it was a good idea
for her to give me external validation, because only i was in a
position to determine whether these things were true. If she had
told me yes, you were abused, it might make me feel better initially
but eventually i would return to the doubt again for the very reasons
you mentioned, i.e., the idea that she had 'planted' the suggestion
with me. It really hurt to hear her say that, and i struggled with
whether to go back; however i'd come to trust her judgement over the
time we'd been working together, so i decided to trust her again and
do as she advised, to simply regard abuse as a strong possibility
but not a certainty.
i can see now that she was exactly right. Eventually the memories
did return. Eventually i saw that i don't need anyone else's
validation to determine what happened. i was there, others were
not. My memories are true, regardless of how much FMS tries to
discount them. It really did happen.
--
boy brent B4 htm[csegk]++ |
bca...@agora.rain.com (gay stuff) | This person reopened under new management.
bca...@atlas.com (telecom stuff) |
boxofrain
*** recovering, former offender. ***
*** CONTENT SPOILER: Remembering being triggered. ***
: I leave you with a quote from sprout's last post which I think is quite
: important...
: : I believe there are "false memories". But most of
: : all I believe that, in general, people KNOW whether a memory is true
: : or not, whether an explanation is true or not, because they will
: : have undeniable powerful feelings associated with "true" memories, even
: : if the details aren't dead on.
: Kamin
On the subject of knowing that we have been abused... I was talking
to my therapist about the upcoming (2 yrs ago) christmas party at
my house. I said that I just hated the thought of being in the same
state as my abuser (meaning that he would be at the party). She took
that to mean that he lives in the same state, and said "He's here?" with
real surprise in her voice. For an instant I thought that she meant
that he was sitting next to me. No I *knew* that he was sitting next to
me. My body whipped around in defense mode, but there was noone
there. She said "And you don't believe you were abused?".
As far as I'm concerned, there can be no doubt. The feelings of that
moment were totally unambiguous.
Peace,
boxofrain
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Ed Carp
Good question. Was your life better before you remembered? I think that
one needs to look at the quality of life that they had before they
remembered their abuse. Objectively, that is. I think that you will
eventually be glad you started down the road to healing, but what a
terrible cost! :(
I think it was inappropriate of your therapist to push the issue. A
question, I don't think, was out of line, but pushing the issue like she
did wasn't appropriate IMO. If you are ready to handle the memories, you
will. If you aren't, you won't. I don't think you need help from anyone
else to remember.
: I believe that there are therapists with agendas -- any therapist
: who is a survivor and hasn't dealt with it is likely to be a
: lousy therapist.
You got *that* right. I have a friend who is a therapist. She *says* she
is a good one, and that she can handle it, she's superwoman, yeah, right.
I asked her the other day, "if you were your own client, wouldn't you say
that you were in denial?" People can only handle so much, and can only
listen to, and hear, so much of other's stories. That's why I'm no longer
in law enforcement. That's why I have to get away from asar every so
often - the pain of others gets to be overwhelming after a while. I would
*strongly* suggest that anyone who is a survivor and hasn't dealt with
their own issues STAY OUT OF those sort of those profesional roles, at
least until they've worked through their own issues and healed enough to
be able to see things objectively.
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG e...@wetware.com 510/659-9560
Step by Step
sprout writes:
>
> b...@panix.com (Bernadette Bosky) writes:
> [...]
> > On the other hand, I do think that uncovering repressed memories
> >is a difficult process, and that one can get confused and treat as purely
> >accurate a memory which could be symbolic, or a conflation of other
> >memories, or something you were told about, or whatever.
That does happen. However, I do not believe, that one remembers
things, which are worse, than reality actually was. Say, if one
was abused by their father, it may happen, that they remember
instead being abused by a stranger.
Also, time and length have different meanings at different age. When
I was about ten, my parents moved to a new house. When I visited the
old house several years later, I was strongly surprised, how *small*
the rooms were. I grew, and the rooms shrinked. The same with time.
Leaving a baby hungry and screaming for one hour is *great* stress for
it. Cooking for lunch for a 10-year old child one hour later as usual
is not a problem at all.
But many people do not understand the different perspective of a small
child. These are mostly people, who have broken down the contact with
the child in them, and accurately suppress all memories before a
certain age (say 3 or 4, but there are people, who hardly remember
having been at school).
> Mine is just one story, but I think it holds the key to many others:
> we tend to disbelieve our own memories very strongly until there is
> no longer any way to escape accepting them. We censor ourselves
> so strongly, it seems, that we hardly need the FMS around to add
> to the burden.
But *why* do so many survivors judge their own memories so severe?
For example, I have no problems believing, that anybody an ASAR was
abused, but from time to time, I have problems, believing myself,
that I was abused.
I think, this is related to the question, why memories are repressed
at all. If you had to live with parents, that were invalidating you,
your feelings, did not care for you, and - to bring things to the
top - abused you, how were you able to remember?
I was the nasty, bad, dirty, lying child. I had no rights to "annoy"
my parents, but most of my actions were annoying them. I had no rights
to get attention. I had to adapt to them, and satisfy their needs, or
*die*.
Many other survivors have the same problems. They were torn out of
their living bodies, and made to slaves of their parents or other
abusers.
And these slaves know: I AM MINOR! I MUST BE WRONG!
For many people, it is easier, to stay a slave their whole life, than
to break the chains. Sometimes, therapists put too much burdon on
their clients, by telling them too soon, that they show the signs of
sexual abuse. For people suffering physical abuse, it may be death-
threatening to accuse the father. They need a long time to allow
themselves to feel the bad feelings they had, when daddy came home
drunk once again, and yelled nonsense.
What happens, if clients are forced into real, but currently unbearable
memories too fast? They want to retreat into a safe area. We all
instinctly consider parents as safe. For some, this is not true. But
then, it takes a lot of time and pain and effort to understand and accept
this betrayel.
If not given this time, people having abuse memories might retreat into
the apparent safety of their abusive parents. No need to say, what
the price is: suppress the memories again.
A bad therapist can easily play the role of the parents, too. And,
bang, FMS is born. All you need to do to produce lots of cases of
FMS, is to suppress your own memories, be as manipulative and abusive
as many parents, and offer counselling.
Therapists may ask leading questions. But they must be carefull
about what a client can stand at a given time, and what not. If
the client answers "No" to the question: "Have you been sexually
abused.", this must be accepted for now, even if the therapist can
be 99% sure, that the opposite is true.
Step by Step
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