Live at the Witch Trials,
Andy vida
Original-From: Mr.@cbnewsb.att.com X
To: att!avida
Status: R
Hi folx,
Someone wrote:
>Sim is absolutely correct. Richard's homophobic hatred and violence do not
>belong in this group--or on this planet. Please, Richard, get help. You
>are poisoning yourself. If you must spit out such vile stuff, spit it into
>your pillow where it won't hurt other people. Paula
>
Hmmm... this is rather interesting. I believe I missed this
persons homophobic post, but by the sound of everyones reactions
I can only assume it was quite a good rant. Also, if memory
serves me correctly, was this person not a victim of sexual
abuse himself? I will assume this is so. If I am wrong, then
I'd say perhaps the 'n' key should be hit now.
^L
Well OK, here I go. Since he was abused I think we would all
agree that he has suffered some form and degree of damage. As
such I believe that the "symptoms" can cover a very broad range
of manifestations. Hurt is hurt and outward expressions of that
hurt should be valid no matter what they are (as far as posting
to this group is concerned). If a person is homosexually raped
and they go on a rant about "queers" and "faggots" etc., I do not
think they should be berated for this. IMO it should be accepted
as the way this person feels and they should be allowed to feel
way and be offered support and whatever help we can give.
I wish I had the original post because I feel I'm pissing in the dark
here, but I'll go on anyway. If I err tremendously, go ahead and flame
away if any of you feel I deserve it.
The byword for this newsgroup is, I believe, compassion. If this is
indeed the case, then it should be applied evenly to one and all who
enter here with real problems, regardless how politically incorrect
their particular brand of hurt and expression of same may be.
If we do not accept all forms of hatred, pain and anguish from those
who have been abused, then we are mere hippocrites, choosing to
support and help only those cases that appeal to our sensibilities.
I believe the honest measure of this newsgroup shows when the truly
ugly cases present themselves.
I'm not trying to get on anyone's back here because I may be speaking
through my backside, but I think it is worth saying this to you folks
just in case I'm not.
Take care,
-Andy Vida-Szucs
abe...@enh.nist.gov
>
> Well OK, here I go. Since he was abused I think we would all
> agree that he has suffered some form and degree of damage. As
> such I believe that the "symptoms" can cover a very broad range
> of manifestations. Hurt is hurt and outward expressions of that
> hurt should be valid no matter what they are (as far as posting
> to this group is concerned). If a person is homosexually raped
> and they go on a rant about "queers" and "faggots" etc., I do not
> think they should be berated for this.
Not! If this person were raped by a black person, would it be acceptable
for that person to spout racist attitudes. If he were raped by women,
would mysogyny be acceptable. I think not.
Hatred toward the person/people who raped him is fully acceptable. Hatred
toward a class of people, all lumped into one pile, especially a class
which is a distinct and hated minority, which people try to kill and beat
everyday, is unacceptable.
> IMO it should be accepted
> as the way this person feels and they should be allowed to feel
> way and be offered support and whatever help we can give.
Racism, mysogyny, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc., are unacceptable and are
symtoms of the power and control people wish to have over each other. These
are the same issues which lead to child abuse and rape. Accepting these
as the way a person feels will only serve to perpetuate the abuse we are
trying to overcome.
RMR did not come here for compassion or support. Not once in his posts
did he ask for that. He came to give us his unusual brand of recovery,
of which I was not the first person to violently disagree.
__
Sim David Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL aberson%3338...@sdsc.edu \/
Steve Russell
>Hi folx,
>
>
> Well OK, here I go. Since he was abused I think we would all
> agree that he has suffered some form and degree of damage. As
> such I believe that the "symptoms" can cover a very broad range
> of manifestations. Hurt is hurt and outward expressions of that
> hurt should be valid no matter what they are (as far as posting
> to this group is concerned). If a person is homosexually raped
> and they go on a rant about "queers" and "faggots" etc., I do not
> think they should be berated for this. IMO it should be accepted
> as the way this person feels and they should be allowed to feel
> way and be offered support and whatever help we can give.
>
First of all, I don't support the idea that outward expressions of hurt
are all valid here. Sexist, racist, and homophobic expressions are
particularly bad. I suppose if this were a newsgroup of straight white
men, then you could try to claim that it was merely unhealthy and not
a personal attack on newsgroup members (I wouldn't even agree with this,
however, since I feel personally attacked by racist remarks). But there
are plenty of queers here, I am one of them. Now, I often cringe at the
sight of elderly men looking at me, since I was raped by one, but I don't
go around talking about how horrible men are, especially the old ones, nor
do I think anyone is justified in doing so. In addition, the inaccurate
belief that the men who abuse boys are gay men is a very dangerous misconception
in our society. I will not stay silent when this idea is put forward
in any context.
It is completely possible to express one's discomfort with certain types of
people because of the abuse. Some women here have said that they feel
uncomfortable when any man tries to get to know them. Generally, they
bend over backwards to explain that they don't want to offend the men
here, they've just been burned a lot and get kind of freaked out when men
are around. They don't claim that it's good that they feel this way since
men are all dickheads anyway.
> here, but I'll go on anyway. If I err tremendously, go ahead and flame
> away if any of you feel I deserve it.
>
> The byword for this newsgroup is, I believe, compassion. If this is
> indeed the case, then it should be applied evenly to one and all who
> enter here with real problems, regardless how politically incorrect
> their particular brand of hurt and expression of same may be.
Okay, I understand that you're trying to be nice about this, but can't
you see how much a statement like this marginalizes and invalidates
ME!?!! No, I don't have real problems, I'm not hurt by being called a
queer by someone who uses the word as a synonym for perp, I don't have
real concerns--I just want everything to be politically correct! It's not
like I actually suffer from homophobia, it's not like I think it's wrong, I
just want everyone to use the words that are cool! Yeah, that's it...
> If we do not accept all forms of hatred, pain and anguish from those
> who have been abused, then we are mere hippocrites, choosing to
> support and help only those cases that appeal to our sensibilities.
Becoming a perp is an expression of hatred, pain and anguish for many who
were abused, I _never_ claimed to accept all forms of these. I encourage
survivors to become angry at their perps if this is what they need right
now, but I don't encourage them to get angry at everyone who bears any
superficial resemblance to their perp. There are times when I feel angry
at all the men over 45 I see in a day. This is a problem I have, not part
of my healing process. As sensitive as I am about it, I think I could be
understanding of someone who had this reaction to lesbian/bisexual women IF
they really saw their feelings in the same light as I see my reaction to older
men and didn't use the societal acceptance of gay hatred to reinforce and
justify their feelings.
> I believe the honest measure of this newsgroup shows when the truly
> ugly cases present themselves.
If we have to pass tests here, can someone tell me what we're being graded
on? :)
Sherri
Andy vida
It was previously written:
>In a previous article, av...@isis.cs.du.edu (Andy vida) wrote:
>>
>> [cut, slash, hack...]
>
>Not! If this person were raped by a black person, would it be acceptable
>for that person to spout racist attitudes. If he were raped by women,
>would mysogyny be acceptable. I think not.
I respectfully disagree here. There are no such things as acceptable
and unacceptable feelings. Feelings are not negotiable. They simply
ARE, and if a person is so gurt that feel "Nigger" this, or "Jew"
that or what have you, then they NEED to have these feelings
acknowledged and validated. Beating them up for it is the absolute
WORST thing you can do to them. Sure, these feelings and their honest
verbal expressions are ugly to most of us but we are really being
short sighted or cowardly if we refuse to hear the stories of even
the ugliest cases. If we can't do that, then this newsgroup's
validity of existence is quite questionable. If we wish to serve as
a therapeutic forum, then do it all the way and shrink not from
the responsibility when the picture you are forced to look at is
overwhelmingly distasteful. Half way is no way as far as I am
concerned. Doing shit like this and facing the truly horrible aspects
of a persons pain takes a lot of guts, especially when one must not
pass judgements, no matter HOW awful a nerve that has been struck by
anothers words.
We are talking about hurt people, some savagely so,
that need HELP, not lectures on how what they feel is unacceptable.
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps some of these folks don't
have a clear undersstanding of their pain and anger? That all they
know is that they hurt so badly and rage so violently that they have
to get it out anyway they can and so choose the most convenient target
to which the venom may be directed? This is serious pathology, not
something for a dilletante to thumb their nose at when the going gets
rough. Pardon me but there is some responsibility that must be taken
by one and all who speak here, including Richard.
>
>Hatred toward the person/people who raped him is fully acceptable. Hatred
>toward a class of people, all lumped into one pile, especially a class
>which is a distinct and hated minority, which people try to kill and beat
>everyday, is unacceptable.
Again, you think too narrowly here. Feelings are what they are and
you will not help anyone by telling them that their feelings are not
acceptable. Most folks have spent lifetimes hearing just this and I
think it is about time we put an end to it. We are not idiots here,
but presumably intelligent, caring adults who are looking to help
ourselves and others who have suffered a broad spectrum of
abuses. If this is so then I believe we have some obligation to
put aside all moralizing and have the courage to accept all persons
on their own terms. If we do this and the person is genuine, they
will come around sooner or later. IF we do not, then we have no
business calling ourselves an open forum, which is fine as long as this
is made plain and clear upfront for everyone to see.
>
>
>Racism, mysogyny, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc., are unacceptable and are
>symtoms of the power and control people wish to have over each other. These
>are the same issues which lead to child abuse and rape. Accepting these
>as the way a person feels will only serve to perpetuate the abuse we are
>trying to overcome.
Accepting the way a person feels is NOT tantamount to accepting
those feelings as your own. But acknowledging a persons feelings
is the first step to allowing them to get cast them away for healthier
ones. If we can't see this then we're in some serious shit here.
>
>RMR did not come here for compassion or support. Not once in his posts
>did he ask for that. He came to give us his unusual brand of recovery,
>of which I was not the first person to violently disagree.
>
What, exactly, do you perceive his "unusual brand of recovery" to be?
If RMR is pulling a prank, then that's too bad. I do not know
myself and so cannot form an opinion. In that event, I would ignore
him, they always go away after a while. Gots ta use da brain, capisce?
-Andy Vida-Szucs
Anneliese Lilje
>This verges on meta-discussion, but I post because it has a lot to do
>with acceptance of people's beliefs and feelings here. I hope this topic
>does not continue as I've had a tough time since it began.>>It was previously written by me:
>>>If this person were raped by a black person, would it be acceptable
>>>for that person to spout racist attitudes. If he were raped by women,
>>>would mysogyny be acceptable. I think not.
>>
>> I respectfully disagree here. There are no such things as acceptable
>> and unacceptable feelings. Feelings are not negotiable. They simply
>> ARE, and if a person is so gurt that feel "Nigger" this, or "Jew"
>> that or what have you, then they NEED to have these feelings
>> acknowledged and validated. Beating them up for it is the absolute
>> WORST thing you can do to them. Sure, these feelings and their honest
>> verbal expressions are ugly to most of us but we are really being
>> short sighted or cowardly if we refuse to hear the stories of even
>> the ugliest cases.
>
>only words, I may agree with you. But when the majority of Americans believe
>that I have no rights and that I should not exist, these words scare me, and
I agree with almost all you have said but I sincerly think you are
streching this to say the "the majority of americans believe that
I have no right." Please BACK this statement up or retract it. From what
I have seen it is a MINORITY of IDIOTS who are terrorizing these communities.
They need to be "rubbed out" (figuratively) as soon as possible. As pressure
mounts on THEM, I expect that we will see more and more VIOLENT outbursts
from these people as time goes on. As homosexuality is more and more accepted
in this country.
>I will confront them whether they come from my best friend, an abuse survivor,
>or the President of the United States (who agrees with the radical right on
>this one, if you had any doubt).
I urge you too as I urge all others too.
anne
abe...@enh.nist.gov
with acceptance of people's beliefs and feelings here. I hope this topic
does not continue as I've had a tough time since it began.
In a previous article, av...@isis.cs.du.edu (Andy vida) wrote:
>It was previously written by me:
>>If this person were raped by a black person, would it be acceptable
>>for that person to spout racist attitudes. If he were raped by women,
>>would mysogyny be acceptable. I think not.
>
> I respectfully disagree here. There are no such things as acceptable
> and unacceptable feelings. Feelings are not negotiable. They simply
> ARE, and if a person is so gurt that feel "Nigger" this, or "Jew"
> that or what have you, then they NEED to have these feelings
> acknowledged and validated. Beating them up for it is the absolute
> WORST thing you can do to them. Sure, these feelings and their honest
> verbal expressions are ugly to most of us but we are really being
> short sighted or cowardly if we refuse to hear the stories of even
> the ugliest cases.
Something tells me you are a heterosexual white Christian male (not that
there's anything wrong with that, some of my best friends are :-) ).
I say that because issues of hate probably never cross your mind in the
same way they do mine. Let me tell you a little bit about myself. One
of the things that I do in my spare time is run a local anti-violence
project. Last Saturday night, some teenagers attacked a gay man locally,
shouted the same hate words as RMR, and beat him so badly he is in intensive
care fighting for his life. The police call this simple assault, and not
a hate crime. I call it attempted murder, all because the victim was a
gay man. This is not an isolated incident. Anti-gay and anti-lesbian
hate crimes such as these run into the millions each year in this country
as underreported as child abuse ane rape.
Another case in point. In Colorado and Oregon today, radical right-wing
hate groups have put on the ballots of those states, in the guise of
what they call "traditional family values," constitutional amendments
which equate homosexuality with child abuse and bestiality, which make it
illegal, and make any governent support of gay and lesbian people illegal.
Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in these state's probably
wouldn't even be allowed to check a book out of the local library. Are we
in America or Nazi Germany. These people are scary, but unfortunately,
on this issue, they twist the issues and could win. After me, then
the Jews, then the blacks, then the Hispanics, etc.
You must understand this. I'm fighting for my life. I'm fighting for my life
from all the bigotry and hatred which doesn't seem to concern you, and I'm
fighting for the life that was stolen from me when I was abused as a child.
The two are so closely intertwined as I have previously explained. Everyday I
live, I must confront the type of hatred RMR spewed here. If his words were
only words, I may agree with you. But when the majority of Americans believe
that I have no rights and that I should not exist, these words scare me, and
I will confront them whether they come from my best friend, an abuse survivor,
or the President of the United States (who agrees with the radical right on
this one, if you had any doubt).
Feelings of hatred toward the unknown are not understandable in any
instance.
> Doing shit like this and facing the truly horrible aspects
> of a persons pain takes a lot of guts, especially when one must not
> pass judgements, no matter HOW awful a nerve that has been struck by
> anothers words.
In other words, RMR's feelings of hatred are more important than my
feelings that I and my people are under siege, that him hating me is
completely inappropriate. Whether you meant it, that is what you
said.
> We are talking about hurt people, some savagely so,
> that need HELP, not lectures on how what they feel is unacceptable.
We are talking about an oppressed hated group of people who are fighting
for their right to simply exist, not lectures on how expressions of
hatred are acceptble when they come from survivors of child abuse.
> Did you ever stop to think that perhaps some of these folks don't
> have a clear undersstanding of their pain and anger?
Did you ever stop to think that they never will? Your condescending
tone is abysmal.
> That all they
> know is that they hurt so badly and rage so violently that they have
> to get it out anyway they can and so choose the most convenient target
> to which the venom may be directed?
Well, I think disabled people are more convenient to hate and attack
because they are less likely to fight back, so do you think he should
have attacked them instead. The more I (re)read your post, the more
reprehensible it becomes.
> This is serious pathology, not
> something for a dilletante to thumb their nose at when the going gets
> rough. Pardon me but there is some responsibility that must be taken
> by one and all who speak here, including Richard.
It's not my responsibility to grab a hatemonger by the hand and educate
him when all he wants to do is kill me. That is just silly.
> Again, you think too narrowly here. Feelings are what they are and
> you will not help anyone by telling them that their feelings are not
> acceptable. Most folks have spent lifetimes hearing just this and I
> think it is about time we put an end to it. We are not idiots here,
> but presumably intelligent, caring adults who are looking to help
> ourselves and others who have suffered a broad spectrum of
> abuses.
You assume RMR to be an intelligent, caring adult. I do not agree.
> If this is so then I believe we have some obligation to
> put aside all moralizing and have the courage to accept all persons
> on their own terms.
So I have to accept RMR and his hatred, but he doesn't have to accept me?
> What, exactly, do you perceive his "unusual brand of recovery" to be?
All you need to do his read his posts. If his diatribe had come in a vacuum,
I could have been more accepting. Taken with his other posts, I could
do no such thing.
> If RMR is pulling a prank, then that's too bad. I do not know
> myself and so cannot form an opinion. In that event, I would ignore
> him, they always go away after a while. Gots ta use da brain, capisce?
Spend a little more time here before giving us your uninformed opinions.
Had you read his series of posts, maybe you would understand. But you
cam in ignorant and gave us your opinion. It is not my job to explain
anything to you, and it is not my job to accept hatred in any way.
I hope this is the end of this.
Matthew Fields
>Date: Wed, 29 Apr 92 15:55:54 EDT
>Original-From: Mr.@cbnewsb.att.com X
>To: att!avida
>
>It was previously written:
>>In a previous article, av...@isis.cs.du.edu (Andy vida) wrote:
>>>
>>> [cut, slash, hack...]
>>
>>Not! If this person were raped by a black person, would it be acceptable
>>for that person to spout racist attitudes. If he were raped by women,
>>would mysogyny be acceptable. I think not.
>
> I respectfully disagree here. There are no such things as acceptable
> and unacceptable feelings. Feelings are not negotiable. They simply
> ARE, and if a person is so gurt that feel "Nigger" this, or "Jew"
> that or what have you, then they NEED to have these feelings
|
Wrong. The rage is a feeling, but the "Nigger" this, "Jew" that, is a |
learned thought, that is totally misdirected in this context, and needs |
to be redirected at perpetrators. |
|
The first time I faced this kind of rhetoric/ \
was as an undergraduate in Harkness co-op, a vegetarian house at Oberlin
College in Ohio. The claim was that by being a vegetarian I was oppressing
meat eaters in very much the same way that the Nazis oppressed people.
I later learned that by being a Jew I was oppressing Nazis, by being an
atheist I was oppressing theists, by being male I was oppressing females,
by being pretty good at my specialty I was oppressing less-competent people,
and by being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse I was oppressing all
parents and everything that had anything to do with families. To this
last I feel obligated to respond that abusers really would like nothing
more than for us to take out our rage on someone else, e.g. gays, since
that gets the abusers off the hook. Note that the lit still shows that
random pedophiles are mostly (self-identified) heterosexual men who sexualize
with children of either sex. The gay community has NOT been harboring or
facilitating child abuse. I can see that massive education is still ahead
for this civilization.
Andy vida
>Something tells me you are a heterosexual white Christian male (not that
>there's anything wrong with that, some of my best friends are :-) ).
Sorry, wrong-O. I am male. I a mix of German and Mongolian blood
mainly, which qualifies me a white OR non white. I prefer to think
of myself simply as human. Makes things much easier.
Christian? Uh, nope, and nothing else you could name for that matter.
You may wish to tread a bit more carefully with your assumptions.
Not gay, but I would not term my preferences as exactly straight
either.
>I say that because issues of hate probably never cross your mind in the
>same way they do mine.
More presumption. You have not the vaguest idea of the hate and
violence that I have lived with, suffered under, watched or otherwise
had to endure for large proportions of my life.
>Let me tell you a little bit about myself. One
>of the things that I do in my spare time is run a local anti-violence
>project. Last Saturday night, some teenagers attacked a gay man locally,
>shouted the same hate words as RMR, and beat him so badly he is in intensive
>care fighting for his life. The police call this simple assault, and not
>a hate crime. I call it attempted murder, all because the victim was a
>gay man. This is not an isolated incident. Anti-gay and anti-lesbian
>hate crimes such as these run into the millions each year in this country
>as underreported as child abuse ane rape.
>
I am truly sorry to hear about this persons savage beating, and if it
makes any difference at all, he has my best wishes. I understand what
you are saying about the horros of so called "hate crimes" but this
has NOTHING to do with a person coming here for help (and I mean
nonpranksters that come here in a more or less forthright manner).
Hate and overgeneralized expressions of same obviously are a sore
spot for you. That is fine and I do (whether you believe it or not)
understand this. However this is a place that touches other folks,
some I suspect, in very profound ways, and therefore you cannot play
these selcetive games with the misery of anyone here. If you are
going to step in and try to help then you must assume full
responsibility for doing so and make damned sure you are not damaging
anyone further.
E.g., if a person comes here and rants about how horrible men are and
someone or group of folks here dump all over this person and they go
home and blow their brains out because someone here told them how
awful they were for having those feelings, I would say somebody may
have a life on their conscience.
>Another case in point. In Colorado and Oregon today, radical right-wing
>hate groups have put on the ballots of those states, in the guise of
>what they call "traditional family values," constitutional amendments
>which equate homosexuality with child abuse and bestiality, which make it
>illegal, and make any governent support of gay and lesbian people illegal.
>Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in these state's probably
>wouldn't even be allowed to check a book out of the local library. Are we
>in America or Nazi Germany. These people are scary, but unfortunately,
>on this issue, they twist the issues and could win. After me, then
>the Jews, then the blacks, then the Hispanics, etc.
OK, these persons are scary, but this is not what we are talking about.
We are talking about hurt angry, sometimes raging people who need help,
not career lunatics that are trying to impose their view of world order
on the rest of us. Let us keep to the point in question.
>
>You must understand this. I'm fighting for my life. I'm fighting for my life
>from all the bigotry and hatred which doesn't seem to concern you, and I'm
>fighting for the life that was stolen from me when I was abused as a child.
And so are we all.
>The two are so closely intertwined as I have previously explained. Everyday I
>live, I must confront the type of hatred RMR spewed here. If his words were
>only words, I may agree with you.
You speak so boldly against hate, yet you sound so full of it yourself.
I see nothing wrong with this per se, however you don't seem to
realize that you are every bit as intolerant in YOUR attitude towards
folks who think and feel a certain way as they are about you. Do you
really believe that you are fundamentally different? Does not sound
like it to me. Sounds like you simply hate different things. I'm not
flaming you here either, though you may choose to believe otherwise.
>Feelings of hatred toward the unknown are not understandable in any instance.
Very big statement here that I suspect you will not be able to
substantiate.
>
>> Doing shit like this and facing the truly horrible aspects
>> of a persons pain takes a lot of guts, especially when one must not
>> pass judgements, no matter HOW awful a nerve that has been struck by
>> anothers words.
>
>In other words, RMR's feelings of hatred are more important than my
>feelings that I and my people are under siege, that him hating me is
>completely inappropriate. Whether you meant it, that is what you
>said.
If you are trying to help another person, then at times, yes, you
must put their feelings above your own. If you'd discipline yourself
and do what is necessary for aid another person in their struggle to
be free and healthy, you might find that some day a person like RMR
no longer harbors such feelings. Indeed you might well find them
apologizing profusely for having said so many things that they now
know were so hurtful to you and others. These things DO happen if you
have the sense to allow them.
>
>> We are talking about hurt people, some savagely so,
>> that need HELP, not lectures on how what they feel is unacceptable.
>
>We are talking about an oppressed hated group of people who are fighting
>for their right to simply exist, not lectures on how expressions of
>hatred are acceptble when they come from survivors of child abuse.
I am afraid you are still confusing two entirely separate issues.
It seems you do not yet recognize this. So sorry that this hurts you
so badly.
>
>> Did you ever stop to think that perhaps some of these folks don't
>> have a clear undersstanding of their pain and anger?
>
>Did you ever stop to think that they never will?
A distinct possibility, but does not everyone in need deserve the
chance? Each journey begins with the first step, as the saying
goes. If you do not allow a person to take that first step, no matter
how poorly they may do so, they will NEVER be well and THAT would be
a shame and would have happened by the hand of another.. Would that
make things better?
>
>
>Well, I think disabled people are more convenient to hate and attack
>because they are less likely to fight back, so do you think he should
>have attacked them instead. The more I (re)read your post, the more
>reprehensible it becomes.
I am afraid I can make no sense of these statements, beyond your
hate for me.
>
>> This is serious pathology, not
>> something for a dilletante to thumb their nose at when the going gets
>> rough. Pardon me but there is some responsibility that must be taken
>> by one and all who speak here, including Richard.
>
>It's not my responsibility to grab a hatemonger by the hand and educate
>him when all he wants to do is kill me. That is just silly.
We were not talking about killing you or anyone else.
>
>You assume RMR to be an intelligent, caring adult. I do not agree.
How do you come to this conclusion? Have you offered your help?
Your empathy? Has he rejected these out of hand repeatedly?
I would really like to know how you came to these beliefs. For all
I know you may be right.
>
>> If this is so then I believe we have some obligation to
>> put aside all moralizing and have the courage to accept all persons
>> on their own terms.
>
>So I have to accept RMR and his hatred, but he doesn't have to accept me?
I did not say that. But perhaps you are in a superior position
emotionally, than he is. Maybe you could afford a little more to
give a bit and try to understand whence his hate comes. With that
knowledge you may be able to help him out of the maze of emotions
that he is probably stuck in. If you cannot do this, then all you
have to do is hit the 'n' key. You are by no means forced to read his
posts. Leave it for another person to deal with.
Would you not find it satisfying to help such a hate filled person
turn themselves around to become whole and healthy? If so, then
you must be disciplined and strong, because the going can get real
tough at times. If not, then stay away from him, there are plenty
of other people here to lend support to.
>
>
>Spend a little more time here before giving us your uninformed opinions.
They are offered in good faith. If you cannot accept that, OK.
>I hope this is the end of this.
Hiding from it wont help.
-Andy Vida-Szucs.
Joyce E Hartley
I've been debating about jumping into this thread; it has taken a lot of
bandwidth in the past few days. This whole thing looks like it could very
well get out of hand, but I decided to jump in anyway.
I do not think that we have to accept someone's bigotry in this
group. I will accept their feelings, and their hatred of individuals. I
will not reject Rick. That does not mean that I will tolerate his
homophobia. It disgusts me, and it has obviously made Sim uncomfortable.
Andy is right in the fact that we are a supportive environment, and
shouldn't reject people because of their feelings, but as someone pointed
out, bigotry is not a feeling. By encouraging Rick in his mode of
expression of his feeling we would be ignoring, and even trivializing, Sim's
justified anger at being attacked. Hell, I felt like I was being attacked.
I 'm a bisexual female, and my experience thus far with homophobes has been
that they believe all non-heterosexuals are evil. (yes I realize that that
is an extreme way of putting it, but I think that everybody gets the point)
Despite what Andy says, I do not think that anyone would be thrilled
if I said that I thought that all heterosexual males of Portugese descent
with pot-bellies should be taken out and shot immediately. (BTW that is a
description of my perp) Embracing bigotry is letting the perp off the hook.
It's another version of the old "He couldn't help it because..." routine.
It's one more way that the perp has invaded us. It really sucks. I think
that I'm winding down, so I'll stop.
Bye for now,
Yarrow
Andy vida
>In article <1992Apr29.2...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> av...@isis.cs.du.edu (Andy vida) writes:
>>
>>
>> I respectfully disagree here. There are no such things as acceptable
>> and unacceptable feelings. Feelings are not negotiable. They simply
>> ARE, and if a person is so gurt that feel "Nigger" this, or "Jew"
>> that or what have you, then they NEED to have these feelings
>> acknowledged and validated.
>
>I think there's an important distinction you're missing here. Bigotry
>is not a *feeling*, it's a behaviour or an attitude. The feeling
>behind it is anger or hate or rage, but the bigotry itself is not a
>feeling.
The bigotry is a manifestation of the feelings. If it is there, it
is there and ragging on someone for feeling this way or that will not
make the bigotry go away. Helping them may.
>The anger needs to be validated, but *not* the bigotry.
The feelings, the expressions of which comprise what we call bigotry
need to be validated. Accepting the expression of the person is not
the same as accepting the values themselves. I trust this is fairly
evident. Accepting that they feel something which we may call some
form of bigotry is not equivalent to saying that those feelings are
good, we simply acknowledge that they are there and that we will help
the person to change them for healthier ones. I have never made any
statement, explicit or implied, that said RMR's VALUES should be
taken to be necessarily acceptable to any given person, just that we
accept that these are what they are and we do our best to help.
>I feel I have a responsibility to say "this behaviour is not acceptable".
Fine. It is not WHAT you say, but rather HOW you say it,
>It is *not* okay to attack an entire group of people because of what
>one or more individuals did.
Perhaps not, but then we are talking about words on a screen in this
case. If RMR went out with a machete and began hacking up every
"faggot" he thought he'd found, I'd say fine, he must be stopped.
Here one has the choice to pass on any article. Nothing is being
forced upon anyone.
I know words can hurt, but I feel one should show a bit more
substance than simply allowing the rantings of another person
cause them such a violent stir that they react in a way that is
IMO every bit as inappropriate as the behavior the rale against.
>
>To clarify, I am more than willing to acknowledge Rick's anger
>against his perp(s). I support him feeling that anger, and even
>hate, and I know how healing it can be.
So far, so good.
>But it is *not* okay for him to attack anyone *but* his perp, and he attacked
>gay men in general.
To you it is not and I understand, but you must see that this is
his state of emotional health showing. He has perhaps VERY deep
problems. And yes, it is OK to gently make him aware of the fact that
it is hurtful to hear him say these things, but I do not think it
serves any good purpose at all to tell him his feelings a wrong or
bad or evil etc. Help him out of it, don't beat him up for it.
Blaming him for hating gay men is similar to blaming the zebra for
having stripes, despite the obvious differences :).
>He hurt at least one innocent bystander right here
>on this group, and I will not accept that behaviour.
But you may have to at times. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
When a person goes off like this it is clearly indicative of some
severe distress. Not time for beat `em up games. Hell, even if RMR
is just having a joke at our expense, he should be pitied for the
awfully disturbed person that he must be to derive pleasure in such
a vile manner. Sorry, but a beating just doesn't cut it.
-Andy V.
>
abe...@enh.nist.gov
>I agree with almost all you have said but I sincerly think you are
>streching this to say the "the majority of americans believe that
>I have no right." Please BACK this statement up or retract it. From what
>I have seen it is a MINORITY of IDIOTS who are terrorizing these communities.
>They need to be "rubbed out" (figuratively) as soon as possible. As pressure
>mounts on THEM, I expect that we will see more and more VIOLENT outbursts
>from these people as time goes on. As homosexuality is more and more accepted
>in this country.
1977: Miami. A majority (68%) followed prima-bigot Anita Bryant in voting
that gay/lesbian/bisexual people are not protected against discrimination
in the city.
1990: Broward County. A majority (58%) voted that sexual minorities do
not have civil rights in that jurisdiction.
These are just two examples I have had to live through. This happened in
California last year in one municipality. The Dallas City Council voted that
there shall be no queers on the police force and our Commander in Chief
continues to completely segregate the Armed Forces (all queers get discharged).
The Pres is our bigot in chief, the country follows him.
Follow what is happening in Oregon and Colorado. I respectfully prove you
wrong. The vast majority of Americans are homophobic.
Sorry for the tangent, folks. Just some education is needed here.
________
Sim David Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL aberson%3338...@sdsc.edu \ /
\ /
You are by definition racist and sexist if you are a white male. \ /
- Jess Anderson (ande...@macc.wisc.edu) \/
abe...@enh.nist.gov
is important.
In a previous article, av...@isis.cs.du.edu (Andy vida) wrote:
> If you are
> going to step in and try to help then you must assume full
> responsibility for doing so and make damned sure you are not damaging
> anyone further.
We are simply an unmoderated group of survivors of sexual abuse and their
friends and supporters. While we offer support and advice to each other,
we are in no way responsible for the behavior of anyone who reads anything
here. If a person needs professional help, s/he will not be able to get it
here, and should hire a professional. We cannot offer these services. We
can only offer some support to people in need, to know that we are not alone
in our recovery, and to bask in the glow of other people improving their
lives and sharing that with us. To say we can be responsible for other
individuals because of our words is wrong. We are not geared in that
direction.
________
Sim David Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL aberson%3338...@sdsc.edu \ /
abe...@enh.nist.gov
> case.
Then my words were only words also. No double standards necessary.
________
Sim David Aberson Ft. Lauderdale, FL aberson%3338...@sdsc.edu \ /
Karla Alwan
>Status: R
>
>Hi folx,
>
>Someone wrote:
>
>>Sim is absolutely correct. Richard's homophobic hatred and violence do not
>>belong in this group--or on this planet. Please, Richard, get help. You
>>are poisoning yourself. If you must spit out such vile stuff, spit it into
>>your pillow where it won't hurt other people. Paula
>>
> Well OK, here I go. Since he was abused I think we would all
> agree that he has suffered some form and degree of damage. As
> such I believe that the "symptoms" can cover a very broad range
> of manifestations. Hurt is hurt and outward expressions of that
> hurt should be valid no matter what they are (as far as posting
> to this group is concerned). If a person is homosexually raped
> and they go on a rant about "queers" and "faggots" etc., I do not
> think they should be berated for this. IMO it should be accepted
> as the way this person feels and they should be allowed to feel
> way and be offered support and whatever help we can give.
that's kind of like someone abusing you, and then you
going and offering support for them to get better.
sure, some people feel a need to do that, but it
shouldn't be imposed upon this group.
>
> I wish I had the original post because I feel I'm pissing in the dark
> here, but I'll go on anyway. If I err tremendously, go ahead and flame
> away if any of you feel I deserve it.
I missed the post too, but I'm going to reply anyway.
Now we're both pissing in the dark...
>
> The byword for this newsgroup is, I believe, compassion. If this is
> indeed the case, then it should be applied evenly to one and all who
> enter here with real problems, regardless how politically incorrect
> their particular brand of hurt and expression of same may be.
I don't think i's a matter of being politically
incorrect, I think it's a matter of being insulting,
and abusive.
> If we do not accept all forms of hatred, pain and anguish from those
> who have been abused, then we are mere hippocrites, choosing to
> support and help only those cases that appeal to our sensibilities.
> I believe the honest measure of this newsgroup shows when the truly
> ugly cases present themselves.
>
we are not counselors here (or at least I think mos of us aren't),
we are a lot of people in pain, here to support eachother, not
someone that chooses to be obnoxious and insulting. He isn't
doing his part.
> I'm not trying to get on anyone's back here because I may be speaking
> through my backside, but I think it is worth saying this to you folks
> just in case I'm not.
>
> Take care,
>
> -Andy Vida-Szucs
take for example, if someone posted to the newsgroup and
decided to make nasty insulting remarks about
"people who have been sexually abused."
let's at the same time assume he/she had been sexually
abused. Then this is one of the nice forms of self-hatred.
so would I feel the need to help this person to
get through this problem? no...because I would be insulted.
Just as I'm sure homo/bi sexuals that subscribe to ASAR are
insulted...
-Karla
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Anneliese Lilje
>In a previous article, an...@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje) wrote:
>>I agree with almost all you have said but I sincerly think you are
>>streching this to say the "the majority of americans believe that
>>I have no right." Please BACK this statement up or retract it. From what
>>I have seen it is a MINORITY of IDIOTS who are terrorizing these communities.
>>They need to be "rubbed out" (figuratively) as soon as possible. As pressure
>>mounts on THEM, I expect that we will see more and more VIOLENT outbursts
>>from these people as time goes on. As homosexuality is more and more accepted
>>in this country.
>
>1977: Miami. A majority (68%) followed prima-bigot Anita Bryant in voting
>that gay/lesbian/bisexual people are not protected against discrimination
>in the city.
>
>1990: Broward County. A majority (58%) voted that sexual minorities do
>not have civil rights in that jurisdiction.
>
>These are just two examples I have had to live through. This happened in
>California last year in one municipality. The Dallas City Council voted that
>there shall be no queers on the police force and our Commander in Chief
>continues to completely segregate the Armed Forces (all queers get discharged).
>The Pres is our bigot in chief, the country follows him.
>
>Follow what is happening in Oregon and Colorado. I respectfully prove you
>wrong. The vast majority of Americans are homophobic.
Let's see...you have a sample from one city, a sample from one county,
and there is a handful of idiots in Colorada who are just being stupid.
And you extrapolate to the WHOLE COUNTRY????? Well...you can do this
if you like but I would suggest staying clear of any statistics
classes.
>Sorry for the tangent, folks. Just some education is needed here.
Again, please show to me a POLL or some indication that as a NATION as a
whole the MAJORITY of the people believe that homosexuals SHOULD
HAVE NO RIGHTS. I am still waiting.
I would agree that there are many people in the U.S. that are homophobic.
But to say that these people are both a MAJORITY and want to deprive
you all ALL your rights is just dumb. I think what you'll find is
that those that are homophobic enough to HATE homosexuals will want
to "curb" your rights in some ways but will not want to strip you
of them totally. Hmmmm...Kinda like blacks are in this country.
anne
cloister bell
>Enigma wrote:
>>But it is *not* okay for him to attack anyone *but* his perp, and he attacked
>>gay men in general.
> To you it is not and I understand, but you must see that this is
> his state of emotional health showing. He has perhaps VERY deep
> problems. And yes, it is OK to gently make him aware of the fact that
> it is hurtful to hear him say these things, but I do not think it
> serves any good purpose at all to tell him his feelings a wrong or
> bad or evil etc. Help him out of it, don't beat him up for it.
> Blaming him for hating gay men is similar to blaming the zebra for
> having stripes, despite the obvious differences :).
i'm afraid i have to call b.s. on this one. the zebra cannot help but have
stripes, it has no control over its genetics. RMR is not genetically
presidposed to having negative feelings towards homosexuals. he has some
control over his feelings. the analogy is invalid.
>>He hurt at least one innocent bystander right here
>>on this group, and I will not accept that behaviour.
> But you may have to at times. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
> When a person goes off like this it is clearly indicative of some
> severe distress. Not time for beat `em up games. Hell, even if RMR
> is just having a joke at our expense, he should be pitied for the
> awfully disturbed person that he must be to derive pleasure in such
> a vile manner. Sorry, but a beating just doesn't cut it.
i have to say that i do not see sim's response to RMR's original post as a
'beating.' it felt to me more like an attempt to inform him that his
statements hurt, why they hurt, and that he should change his ways or kindly
keep those feelings quiet. this to me seems fair. you say that perhaps RMR
will someday see the light and apologize for having spoken hurtful words
against homosexuals. well, i don't see that as particularly likely if no one
points out to him the offensiveness of his statements. sim stood out and said
something when he felt attacked. that's fine, and a healthy expression of
anger. i'm glad he did it. i disagree with RMR's opinions also, but don't
feel terribly qualified to speak against them, as they don't relate directly to
me.
i do not get the feeling that anyone thinks his feelings towards homosexuals
are productive. as such, why should we stand idly by and say nothing? the
message i get from sim's post(s) and matt fields' and everyone else's seems to
be "RMR, we understand why you feel like you feel, but it's time to change
that. it's not healthy, nor is it fair to the people you speak against." i do
not think that he has been treated nearly as badly as you do.
and, who asked you to defend RMR? he seems to me more than capable of
defending himself. i find it interesting that he has said nothing since you
started this thread. perhaps he could post and say how he felt about sim's
response, and maybe to say what he thinks about your posts.
you also said some time back that we have a responsibility to treat him with
respect. well, to me that goes two ways. if he cannot express his feelings in
a way that respects his audience (whom he knows to be composed of all types),
then i do not see that he should expect us to respect those ideas.
as sim said, this is not a professional therapy group. this is just a bunch of
people trying to make the best of things. this is as much a *self* help group
as anything. we come here to help ourselves. watch, and you will often see
people saying things to the effect of "and if my post helps someone else, then
so much the better." sure, people come here to get support, but they're out
there on their own in the real world, and primarily have to help themselves.
this group is good for getting different opinions about one's questions, and
reactions to one's feelings. that's what RMR got. no one ever guaranteed that
he would like them. and when someone posts abusively, they should probably not
expect to like them. you get what you pay for.
--
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature. | cloi...@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Bob Boyd
I'm having some feelings that are triggering from reading this
thread since Sim replied to RMR. Some of the replies on this thread are saying:
"If I get upset and angry about what I read in someone else's post, then I
should tell the original poster about those feelings and tell them that those
comments are inappropriate for posting to this newsgroup - and furthermore
if they don't apologize or refuse to comply then I should tell them to
'get out of A.S.A.R' -- (because I can't be comfortable/safe here anymore if
they don't)."
Another set of replies suggests to me:
"If I get upset and angry about what I read in someone's post, then I can
choose to look inside to find out what it is about this that triggers me
and decide whether the anger I'm feeling is directed at the person posting
or if it's a combination of them and/or others in my past. If I choose to
do something with it, I may reply to them and let them know about how
reading their post triggered my feelings."
I get the idea that some of us want to limit what/how steam gets blown off
here and others of us are saying -- if someone blows off steam in a way that
is offensive to keep some internal boundaries up about it and blow it off.
I have noticed that in reading this thread I have been hearing a lot of
messages that are reminding me of the "I am perfect, I know what is ok
and what is not ok, and YOU DON'T, so SHUT UP!" or "This is the only
correct way to communicate that and if you don't get it RIGHT next time
then you are lower than SHIT and you will be punished!" messages that I grew up
with. I am noticing that I feel a lot of anger about those messages.
I still don't like it when I am triggered this way. I hear that those
of you who are offended by the comments RMR made feel offended because he
made a comment about people who have a homosexual orientation as a group
rather than a specific perpetrator. I can see how you find this offensive.
I think it is too.
I hear that some others who have posted in reply are sensing a strong
reaction of judgement and control to the RMR post. And you are feeling
concerned and scared about the thread leading to a general bashing
free-for-all, or setting a poor precedent for bashing people when they
post something that someone finds offensive. I see how your concerns
have some validity -- I am concerned about that too.
I hear some strong feelings being expressed. Is there some way to
clarify what it is that people want about this without grinding all of
the participants into the ground about it? I think there are some
reasonable things that people want:
being heard, being treated with love and respect, freedom to express
feelings with boundaries,
Are there some others that are central to this thread that I've missed?
What are they (in simple words please)? I would really like to see us
draw a focus on what it is that we want to be true in this newsgroup.
Then we may be able to draw some conclusions about what is reasonable
to ask of people posting to this group. We may also discover that there
are some things that will not be reasonable to expect/demand due to the
nature of our abuse issues and/or the format of this forum.
--
Bob Boyd
In The Here & Now
cloister bell
you're completely right. bad choice of words on my part. keep in mind that it
is entirely possible for me to have mis-interpreted sim's post. it is also
possible for me to have not properly translated my thoughts into words. what i
should have written was "...or kindly learn how to re-express those feelings so
as not to hurt others"
>I'm having some feelings that are triggering from reading this
>thread since Sim replied to RMR. Some of the replies on this thread are saying:
[stuff deleted]
>I get the idea that some of us want to limit what/how steam gets blown off
>here and others of us are saying -- if someone blows off steam in a way that
>is offensive to keep some internal boundaries up about it and blow it off.
yes, if that person is blowing off their steam in someone else's face and
scalding them.
>I have noticed that in reading this thread I have been hearing a lot of
>messages that are reminding me of the "I am perfect, I know what is ok
>and what is not ok, and YOU DON'T, so SHUT UP!" or "This is the only
>correct way to communicate that and if you don't get it RIGHT next time
>then you are lower than SHIT and you will be punished!" messages that I grew
> up with. I am noticing that I feel a lot of anger about those messages.
[more stuff deleted]
what we seem to have here is the need for freedom of expression coming into
conflict with a need for a safe place. both are what i would call "basic"
needs. how to choose? i cannot choose between them directly, so i will resort
to another principle i believe in, which is the golden rule. since the golden
rule would not have me violate someone else's boundries (as rmr appears to have
done), then i must choose the need for the safe place over the need to
unreservedly express one's feelings.