Intimacy & S'x
squirre...@webtv.net
internal tug of war most of my life and now i want to just be. no
pressure. no more, "You don't wash the silverware right." "Where are you
going?" "MIne/ yours." No trust or security of that trust. all
beginnings with no ends, with the exceptions with the quick tough
emotional ones. guess i had to go through that. wouldn't it be great to
have a partner who helped and took interest? communicated and shared
what they learned? i don't even know what the fuck i am talking about.
stepping out and remembering the way it was, a not always that good. i
wasn't that good. s'x wasn't easy, i either knew too much or couldn't
have it. there was guilt with women and which anchored me, and a comfort
with men. but different needs and fulfillment with different s'xs. what
one gave the other didn't, and so on.
thought i would just break some ice.. and begin somewhere, so for now i
am just rambling. talk is good. never was there before, so how would i
know if i didn't begin? but where, how and when? been reading some
about this here in the ng. maybe i will get the courage to follow
through with more thoughts, but for the mean time, here is the
beginning. cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
some splats
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more ramblngs
there was guilt with women which anchored me. call me selfish or a fool,
but for all the dreaming of love and tenderness, when it came for the
real bedroom thing, it was raw s'x. what happened to what i had dreamed
of; the tenderness and holding. why did i forget this? i knew about it.
then the guilt; should i enjoy myself, was this the right thing to do?
the idea of r'pe entered my mind, but i would/we would play fantasy. we
enjoyed ourselves, but there was no tender touching. and then the road
blocks of the I won't do it here, or there. i loved it in cars and
outdoors. i seemed to know to much, and felt guilty about that. mirrors
were ok, and the washing machine; tubs, and steambaths. i was
understanding of the restrictions; no problem untill i needed to
mast'rbate. i never met woman who understood this about men, never. but
where was the tenderness? i had my restrictions too. i cound not sleep
close to another person, especially a woman. give me two double beds and
i am a king. night time is for sleeping. i had my quirks too.
men are different animals. evening outdoor showers, middle of the day,
exhausting activity to fall together and sleep in one bed. looking
forward to bedtime was fun and interesting and the closer the better.
men can be bitches too, straight or gay.
i love women for their femeninity, and strength. physically, i can be be
set on fire with an interest that pulls me like a magnet, but men are
more interesting intelectually and physically. women are predictable;
men are complex. its always been this way for me.
but that was then and this is now. the difference is in me. i don't want
to define myself. i am no longer desparate. nuff for now. Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
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make a definition about my s'xuality was almost like k'lling off another
part of me. for so many years i avoided the argument all together. i
seemed to think i would wait to give myself a chance. i waited to long,
for everything. its not enough to read another persons account; for a
person who was so rigid to not even say the word d'ck, i need to mouth
the words. it is important. sure there is grief. this is normal. Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
to see the other side; at times at my own expense. there are too few
teachers for men. i read today in a new book about boys. it said not to
expose a yong boy to images that he is unable to deal with or process
emotionally or physically. i put the book back. Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
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for it. the job changes, class cancellations, s'xual explorations,
relationship loses. the worst memories were of letting people down; that
sinking, knowing, deep inner gut feeling of facing the pain in other
people's lives. failure and hope, two ingredients i lived, slept with,
breathed and ate. we speak of mirrors; i faced enough anger and tears. i
left many things and many people, when i was broken and searching for a
way to survive, and remain as harmlessly hidden as i could. i'd work,
and head home, to hide in loneliness and fantasy. i know some of you may
have heard this before, but i want to revisit it.
i could never invest in self development because i knew i was different.
during the first four years of my education i struggled, but it was
after this until graduation i was gone. i could not study or ask for
help. it was as if had split, one part of me knowing what i must do, and
another part of me that would not let me. i have been this way ever
since. i lied, covered up this fact, created a whole differnt world for
others to see and believe. deep down i thought i was different. i
certainly didn't see anyone else like me, they seemed to have freedom of
their bodies, with choices and chances. i am refering to how i saw
things when i was younger at school. it is confusing to take
responsibility for breaking down and the misdiagnosis that confirmed my
fears that i was crazy, because this is what i thought; i am crazy. who
would believe i was? who would believe i wasn't? i was the only one who
cared. how do i explain where i was all these years. you don't get a
degree for staying alive. but i am alive. i have learned a few things
especially that in life, my thinking was wrong. i condemed myself for my
own beliefs. in a way i played a quiet, suffering detective looking for
answers. i know now i am not crazy and by listening to people who can
explain the simple things in life that i worried so much about and
realze that i am ok. ok. i am ok. is this possible? there is a part of
me that stood on the station platform and watched me ride a train that
was doomed to repeat disaster over and over again. i would have given my
life to have had someone tell me basic things in life and this is what i
have been doing. what i must do. i find people are a bit awkward with
this, but it works for me. i need affirmation that i am ok. i don't need
their love, or approval, nor do i seek dependence, just simple
affirmations, conversations about fireplaces, trees, and bees. i need to
fill that void; to start again. it is too late for me in many respects,
yet i must choose to start over. this time it will be different. how do
i explain this life to anyone. who would understand but you? when i
first came here i thought i would try to help out and something happened
i did not expect; i found myself on the train platform unable to control
my words and fears and dependencies and even my emotions. it all came
spilling out; my youth, my young man, and now my middle aged man. i
witnessed all this here before this screen. <deep breath> i watched it
all, embarrassed, angry, really embarrassed :)) and sad. i laughed some.
the best words to me were simple words that came from nowhere, from
people who didn't realize how deprived i was of postitive contact. it
seemed throughout my life i had to speak a million words about recovery
issues to find a few that worked, even more effective than when i did my
own research. this is how my recovery has been. some have said we are
self absorbed, but offer no solution. it is difficult to break down
walls when there are people standing behind them, and comprehend
responsibilty for interacting when this skill has been damaged. it's too
simple to to just offer the diagnosis. it's confusing to take
responsibility for this type of affliction; is one entirely responsible
for cancer? i have seen this happen to people who are ill. they blame
themselves and lose the hope of recovery. self blame is a disease in
itself, and sorting through all this mess takes effort, but it was part
of my process. if taking responsibiity for all this is the solution,
then why are we still here, breaking down in our fourties and fifties? i
have been taking responsibility all my life to the point i am sick of
the thought of containing my anger, withholding my passions, keeping
silent. it was confusing to be critisized for things i was justifiably
angry about; hurting people i loved to strive for supporting my
recluse-like life and to fight for opening up; an on going struggle of
two worlds where misunderstanding reined and dissapointment led to
isolation. confusing and exhausting. how does anyone explain this?
Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
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no one knew that the more i spoke here the more i began to smoke. i
guess i am trying to silence myself here too :)
responsibility has meant two things to me and one was to take my life to
rid others of my worthlessness. i have a plan the only problem is, i
have a diagnosis that may prevent me from exercising my constituional
right to purchase a g'n. wouldn't it be a hoot to be apprehended for
falsifying a questionaire to purchase a g'n? oh, dear. another possible
catch 22. mind you the diagnosis is wrong, a punitive action to silence
me when i pissed off a wrong group of people while taking a stand
against abuse. go figure. something i am proud of I did. a bit of a
radical i am at times. something i will have to take responsibility for.
it still hurts. i secretly took other tests on my own. i had to know for
sure:) i was right.
so, what does all this have to do with s'x and intimacy? i am not sure
i want to go there again. do you blame me? i have an intricate pattern
of remaining in control and turning it off, especially with women. i
will be friends, but i will never allow myself to lose control again.
women don't understand men period. mention to them that you sucked
dicks and they run. mention to them you masturbate and they panic. and
they say men have trouble with their masculinity, ha! the sad part is,
with my history, i don't fit in anywhere except somewhere in the land of
the misunderstood, unfit, and disfigured. somewhere with perps, and
transexuals, crossdressers, and those guys who frequent peep shows. i've
visited many sites about these people on the internet, and even they
show a degree of enthusiasm for their choices. peep show pride. ugh. why
do i feel so bad. aren't i good enough? where do i fit in? i don't even
own a dress. but i sucked cock and pulled tits (as i have heard here in
this ng described) too. so come to think of it, i lived with things i
was ashamed of. i don't usually talk this way, it is what others say
when they critisize and it hurts.
it hurts because i want to be a gentle man. yet i am angered by so much
ignorance. leave those crossdressers alone.
i wish i were a simple man, but there is too much history for this,
walking away is no option, and i have a responsibility to my God who has
played an enormous part in my life. i would not have gotten this far
without a faith. this is me, it doesn't have to be you. i have lived
with this sickness for so long. i want so much to be free and breath
freely; walk tall and not explain anything to anyone anymore. dissapear
in normalcy; have a quiet peace. i think this can be done. i still have
hope. Thanks, Cliff
linda2
conversation which a few have seemed to need and haven't been able to
find elsewhere.
Linda
squirre...@webtv.net wrote:
--
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
-- Bilbo Baggins, Hobbit, Adventurer
linda2
Are you ok?
In article <23275-39...@storefull-624.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
squirre...@webtv.net wrote:
cal
<squirre...@webtv.net> wrote...
how does that follow? the more i smoke, the better i talk.
i don't understand this.
> responsibility has meant two things to me and one was to take my life to
> rid others of my worthlessness.
take a look at that and tell me if it isn't the dumbest defnition of
responsibility you ever saw :-(
> i have a plan the only problem is, i
> have a diagnosis that may prevent me from exercising my constituional
> right to purchase a g'n. wouldn't it be a hoot to be apprehended for
> falsifying a questionaire to purchase a g'n? oh, dear. another possible
> catch 22. mind you the diagnosis is wrong, a punitive action to silence
> me when i pissed off a wrong group of people while taking a stand
> against abuse. go figure.
i did go figure. this is you being morbidly cute again, isn't it. quit
pulling this shit on yourself. what shit? this shit: you build yourself
these endlessly twisted word labyrinths, and then you wander off into them
and get lost. totally lose sight of the point. practically the ultimate in
defensive this side of outright denial. i wouldn't care except for seeing
how you hurt and confuse yourself. keep yourself stuck in one place. it's
so frustrating, it makes me just wanna reach out and strangle you. save you
the trouble of buying a gun.
three suggestions, cliff. one, say what you mean. two, keep it simple.
three, screw the past, screw responsibility, and talk about what you WANT.
not always about why it's so frikkin impossible to do anything but exactly
what you're doing.
> something i am proud of I did. a bit of a
> radical i am at times. something i will have to take responsibility for.
> it still hurts. i secretly took other tests on my own. i had to know for
> sure:) i was right.
> so, what does all this have to do with s'x and intimacy? i am not sure
> i want to go there again. do you blame me? i have an intricate pattern
> of remaining in control and turning it off, especially with women. i
> will be friends, but i will never allow myself to lose control again.
you seem to use fear the way a spider uses her thread. you weave these
webs, intricate ones all right, and position yourself in the middle. maybe
others get caught in them, i don't know. i don't necessarily take your word
for it. i do know that when someone sees you there and comes close, you
start scuttling around like crazy, spinning more thread, making more web.
see how complicated it is? weave, weave, weave. see how hopelessly
impenetrable? see how things can't be any way but the way they are? now,
won't you please go away?
> women don't understand men period.
wrong.
> mention to them that you sucked dicks and they run.
not true.
> mention to them you masturbate and they panic.
<sigh> why on earth would they panic? everybody masturbates, except people
who can't... and they wish they could, they try to learn, recover, get
medication, whatever.
ok, i know... but one lousy generalization deserves another.
at any rate, masturbating is the NORM.
women know that as well as men. it's a commonplace.
i guess some women might think you're a bit of a nerd if you go on about it
like it was some kind of profoundly intimate confession. men too. but
that's just a minor behavioral thing, easily corrected.
> and they say men have trouble with their masculinity, ha!
the hell with "men". do you have trouble with your masculinity? i don't
have any with mine... know why? because i don't have any. i've just got
this body that works pretty much like everybody else's. it eats, it shits,
it feels pleasure and pain, comfortable and uncomfortable, it gets turned on
and turned off. everything else is in my head. i don't have to be anything
i don't want to be, and being "masculine" is something i don't even aspire
to. not in bed, not on the beach, not on the job, not on newsgroups, not
anywhere. i don't like "masculine" in other people and i'm at odds with the
parts of myself i see as "masculine". they are but stains on an otherwise
unblemished personality.
> the sad part is,
> with my history, i don't fit in anywhere except somewhere in the land of
> the misunderstood, unfit, and disfigured. somewhere with perps, and
> transexuals, crossdressers, and those guys who frequent peep shows.
oh, crap. the sad part is that you even seem to take some kind of
masochistic pleasure in grinding this baloney and eating it.
try to hear me, cliff... the only reason you don't fit in anywhere is that
you're too scared to go out and do it. and the really FRUSTRATING thing is,
you're going to come back to this with "believe me cal, it's not about
fear."
i know, i know. it's about responsibility and it's all terribly
complicated.
> i've
> visited many sites about these people on the internet, and even they
> show a degree of enthusiasm for their choices. peep show pride. ugh. why
> do i feel so bad. aren't i good enough?
heh... you dismiss them and yourself in the same breath and you wonder why
you feel so bad. it's not "peep show pride", it's people feeling ok about
themselves and having some fun. you feel bad because you don't feel ok
about yourself and can't express yourself with the same kind of pleasure,
and this really bothers you. reinforces how locked away you are. drives
you crazy with the pressure of your captivity.
> where do i fit in? i don't even own a dress.
that probably means you're not a transvestite. no crime. you're still aces
with me :-)
> but i sucked cock and pulled tits (as i have heard here in
> this ng described) too. so come to think of it, i lived with things i
> was ashamed of. i don't usually talk this way, it is what others say
> when they critisize and it hurts.
i've sucked both cock and tits. quite different but equally incredible
sensations. i've done other neat things too. what's to be ashamed? who's
going to tote this stuff up when we're rotting in our graves cliff? nobody,
that's who. it doesn't matter. it doesn't make us special in any way
whatsoever.
> it hurts because i want to be a gentle man. yet i am angered by so much
> ignorance. leave those crossdressers alone.
leave the ignorant alone. they're always going to be there.
> i wish i were a simple man, but there is too much history for this,
> walking away is no option, and i have a responsibility to my God who has
> played an enormous part in my life. i would not have gotten this far
> without a faith. this is me, it doesn't have to be you. i have lived
> with this sickness for so long.
you haven't described anything that sounds like sickness.
only confusion, fear, much unhappiness.
> i want so much to be free and breath
> freely; walk tall and not explain anything to anyone anymore.
this is just a decision away.
> dissapear in normalcy; have a quiet peace. i think this can
> be done.
disappearing? that's something else again. yes, it can be done. you're
very good at it.
i wish there was some way to stop you.
cal
Jennifer Thompson-Hall
> . . . . mention to them that you sucked
> dicks and they run. mention to them you masturbate and they panic. . . .
> where do i fit in? i don't even
> own a dress. but i sucked cock and pulled tits (as i have heard here in
> this ng described) too.
Oh oh.
So what does it mean if you're a woman and you've "sucked cock and
pulled tits"? Or more importantly not only masturbated, but cum because
you're doing a full-out visualization of masturbating your own cock even
if you don't have one?
Oh oh.
:)
Jen
Who personally finds mutual self-masturbation with her partner much
easier to deal with
An
> guess i am trying to silence myself here too :)
> have a diagnosis that may prevent me from exercising my constituional
> right to purchase a g'n. wouldn't it be a hoot to be apprehended for
> falsifying a questionaire to purchase a g'n? oh, dear. another possible
> catch 22.
well i don't recommend the gun; makes a lot of noise and too dramatic and
dirt everywhere; i once knew a german woman and she shoot herself in the
hand; for sure we spend a lot of time in the hospital !!!!!
someone i know says: there is no death, life is death and death is life, we
are all ghost borrowing a body, when we let the body go we still remains
ghost....:-))
i think he is right..
but it seems we do have a responsability with people that know us and will
be hurt by the lost (well i am still arguing and fighting this point :-)),
but YOU have people who cares and loves you; maybe even if it is not in the
way you could dream of ......and i am sure there will be more of them......
mind you the diagnosis is wrong, a punitive action to silence
> me when i pissed off a wrong group of people while taking a stand
> against abuse. go figure. something i am proud of I did. a bit of a
> radical i am at times. something i will have to take responsibility for.
> it still hurts. i secretly took other tests on my own. i had to know for
> sure:) i was right.
> so, what does all this have to do with s'x and intimacy? i am not sure
> i want to go there again.
**************
yes, it is scary because you have to find a new way, an unknown way with no
road already showing up.....i know the feeling; but i do believe that it
will come slowly to you; the only thing is really to be careful about the
patterns and the destructions so as not to repeat the past and really get
free of it...
for the rest below, i will only say that i second what Cal said.....
yes, you get lost somewhere and i hope that you could find out where and
change it because you are on the right way: your way; the way to your love
as you said.....
i would only add: don't act from the place of suffering but from the place
of your strenght and love and you will make the good choices for
you......:-))
do you blame me? i have an intricate pattern
> of remaining in control and turning it off, especially with women. i
> will be friends, but i will never allow myself to lose control again.
> women don't understand men period. mention to them that you sucked
> dicks and they run. mention to them you masturbate and they panic. and
> they say men have trouble with their masculinity, ha! the sad part is,
> with my history, i don't fit in anywhere except somewhere in the land of
> the misunderstood, unfit, and disfigured. somewhere with perps, and
> transexuals, crossdressers, and those guys who frequent peep shows. i've
> visited many sites about these people on the internet, and even they
> show a degree of enthusiasm for their choices. peep show pride. ugh. why
> do i feel so bad. aren't i good enough? where do i fit in? i don't even
> own a dress. but i sucked cock and pulled tits (as i have heard here in
> this ng described) too. so come to think of it, i lived with things i
> was ashamed of. i don't usually talk this way, it is what others say
> when they critisize and it hurts.
> it hurts because i want to be a gentle man. yet i am angered by so much
> ignorance. leave those crossdressers alone.
> i wish i were a simple man, but there is too much history for this,
> walking away is no option, and i have a responsibility to my God who has
> played an enormous part in my life. i would not have gotten this far
> without a faith. this is me, it doesn't have to be you. i have lived
> with this sickness for so long. i want so much to be free and breath
> freely; walk tall and not explain anything to anyone anymore. dissapear
> in normalcy; have a quiet peace. i think this can be done. i still have
> hope. Thanks, Cliff
>
one day there will be no need anymore to talk and explain because one day it
will really be the past, and you will be too busy being alive, being
yourself; and for sure laughing and breathing in some great skys :-))
you will not disapear, you will exist at last !!!! (and least )
Anik
An
Do you really think that there are teachers for women????
do you know who teaches me masturbation??? my ex husband and i was more than
20 years old....
with the abuse i never explore my body as a child..
i learn about being a virgin when i was 22; i have been at a movie with
friends and as always after we went in a place to stay longer together and
then i asked the meaning of the blood of this young girl; they were
surprised but explained to me about virginity.....and then i learned a lot
about it.....
for the fun, for me it remains a life mistery that with my experiences, i am
still a virgin (virgo)....black humor here :-))....i have never been and i
will never be a virgin; but i will also always be one......:-)
See you
Anik
An
following of our private mails, so here i go my friend!! :-)
and i prefer to tell you that's ok if you feel mad, i can handle that :-))
so don't pressure yourself ok? and feel free just to be.....
ah yes too, no need to answer.... those are just my thoughts and reactions,
use them for you if you can otherwise the cabbage box will be just fine with
me:-))
> this ought to be a short thread :)) i mean it, really. i have had an
> internal tug of war most of my life and now i want to just be. no
> pressure. no more, "You don't wash the silverware right." "Where are you
> going?" "MIne/ yours." No trust or security of that trust. all
> beginnings with no ends, with the exceptions with the quick tough
> emotional ones. guess i had to go through that. wouldn't it be great to
> have a partner who helped and took interest? communicated and shared
> what they learned? i don't even know what the fuck i am talking about.
********
yes, you do know, because it is in your dream, in what you want, what you
expect, so maybe you should start to make a work out of it, real work and
construction
everything is possible if you want it.....
> stepping out and remembering the way it was, a not always that good. i
> wasn't that good. s'x wasn't easy, i either knew too much or couldn't
> have it. there was guilt with women and which anchored me, and a comfort
> with men. but different needs and fulfillment with different s'xs. what
> one gave the other didn't, and so on.
> thought i would just break some ice.. and begin somewhere, so for now i
> am just rambling. talk is good. never was there before, so how would i
> know if i didn't begin? but where, how and when? been reading some
> about this here in the ng. maybe i will get the courage to follow
> through with more thoughts, but for the mean time, here is the
> beginning. cliff
>
yes, this is the beginning, see you next post :-)
Anik
An
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> for it. the job changes, class cancellations, s'xual explorations,
> relationship loses. the worst memories were of letting people down; that
> sinking, knowing, deep inner gut feeling of facing the pain in other
> people's lives. failure and hope, two ingredients i lived, slept with,
> breathed and ate. we speak of mirrors; i faced enough anger and tears. i
> left many things and many people, when i was broken and searching for a
> way to survive, and remain as harmlessly hidden as i could. i'd work,
> and head home, to hide in loneliness and fantasy. i know some of you may
> have heard this before, but i want to revisit it.
> i could never invest in self development because i knew i was different.
> during the first four years of my education i struggled, but it was
> after this until graduation i was gone. i could not study or ask for
> help. it was as if had split, one part of me knowing what i must do, and
> another part of me that would not let me. i have been this way ever
> since. i lied, covered up this fact, created a whole differnt world for
> others to see and believe. deep down i thought i was different. i
> certainly didn't see anyone else like me, they seemed to have freedom of
> their bodies, with choices and chances. i am refering to how i saw
> things when i was younger at school. it is confusing to take
> responsibility for breaking down and the misdiagnosis that confirmed my
> fears that i was crazy, because this is what i thought; i am crazy. who
> would believe i was? who would believe i wasn't?
hé, hé, hé, now i understand why you asked me to change my nick; you wanted
to claim it for yourself :-)))
but crazy has a lot of strenght: it has good and bad in itself....and a lot
of imagination !!!
i don't know of any opposite to crazy as:
sane = insane etc....
this is a powerful word for me and i do like it :-)
i was the only one who
> cared. how do i explain where i was all these years. you don't get a
> degree for staying alive. but i am alive. i have learned a few things
> especially that in life, my thinking was wrong. i condemed myself for my
> own beliefs.
*************
yes,Cliff, self condemnation is a strong point; i have it too and it is hard
to unlearn it!!! but we are wrong, there is nothing to condemn: we are just
human being trying to be alive :-))....there is nothing wrong in it !!!
in a way i played a quiet, suffering detective looking for
> answers. i know now i am not crazy and by listening to people who can
> explain the simple things in life that i worried so much about and
> realze that i am ok. ok. i am ok. is this possible? there is a part of
> me that stood on the station platform and watched me ride a train that
> was doomed to repeat disaster over and over again. i would have given my
> life to have had someone tell me basic things in life and this is what i
> have been doing. what i must do. i find people are a bit awkward with
> this, but it works for me. i need affirmation that i am ok. i don't need
> their love,
****************
i diseagree here, you do need love as we all do.....and that's the point....
as is the point to ask: but what is love, what kind of love??...
here is also all you fear and sadness of being abandonned....
in fact, you are asking for love in so many ways....but so afraid to be
rejected that you reject first, you are expecting so much love from others
that it is hurting you.......
i have the feeling that when the need of love get stronger; then the
suffering goes also stronger; but it does mean that it is the
way......maybe.....
or approval, nor do i seek dependence, just simple
> affirmations, conversations about fireplaces, trees, and bees. i need to
> fill that void; to start again. it is too late for me in many respects,
**************
never too late for anything as long as you are breathing.......
what about: just be yourself and stop putting pressure on you about models
that you don't need to be...... you have more than enough life and values
inside you than to try to past to some picture (even if the picture
sometimes may seem a refuge or a protection...)....
someone told me not that long ago to put my past in a luggage and to start
to live; there is a decision to be made, to be taken.....
:-))
Anik
What about some ice cream ????
someone the other day offers me some:
ice sssssssccccccccrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmm
(was that loud enough??)
An
have to deal only with the child abuse but also with rape and murder as an
adult; i hope nobody get scared, because i suppose there are points that are
probably difficult and possibly not relevant for child abuse and i am mixing
everything inside of me...
> spoilered for talk of s'x and all
> some splats
> more ramblngs
>
> there was guilt with women which anchored me. call me selfish or a fool,
> but for all the dreaming of love and tenderness, when it came for the
> real bedroom thing, it was raw s'x. what happened to what i had dreamed
> of; the tenderness and holding. why did i forget this? i knew about it.
> then the guilt; should i enjoy myself, was this the right thing to do?
> the idea of r'pe entered my mind, but i would/we would play fantasy.
***********
when two adults are playing fantasy in full accord, this is no rape.....
after the rape, i had years where i went into hard sex, and i got some
worries about it at first...by chance there was a night phone line in A'dam
where i could call because nobody of the persons i knew could hear what i
was doing.... and by chance when i speak once about my concern the person
told me that i shouldn't worry about it, but search the meaning it had in my
life right now....and stay free from any moral pressure......
and so i discover that i was at the research of the limit between pleasure
and sufferings and this was a very thin one, but i also needed to get rid of
the violence he put on me in one way; i also make the constat that whatever
i was doing, asking for it with someone i trust to share that with me was
absolutely not destructive as much as was what he has been doing to
me.....it all
has to do with power and control......
there is much more to it.....
i still consider that playing fantasy as you call it, for me fantasm, are a
way to grow and discover sexuality and body expressions...there should never
be any guilt about it....the only thing really needed is the accord of the
other partner.....and then just be and feel free and explore until the end
of the fantasms.......i also found that the need for tenderness came after
being until the end of it.....
we
> enjoyed ourselves, but there was no tender touching. and then the road
> blocks of the I won't do it here, or there. i loved it in cars and
> outdoors. i seemed to know to much
********
"know too much" ....for who? only for you i suppose :-))
i see here some isolation patterns and silence, you know, men, women have
bodies and there is no secret about it, they are made in the same ways for
each of them, all men are the same, all women are the same; skin is skin for
both; and a lot of other parts too.....body and pleasure are mostly common
knowledge as well as fantaises.......
, and felt guilty about that. mirrors
> were ok, and the washing machine; tubs, and steambaths. i was
> understanding of the restrictions; no problem untill i needed to
> mast'rbate. i never met woman who understood this about men, never.
**********
i do believe that we choose our partners for our needs, there are women able
to understand those needs without any difficulties, but what i found
interesting is that from what you are saying, your choice of women was to
reinforce your patterns: too much scary to find a woman able to really
satisfy and understand and share with you.......such a woman, you would have
throw her away in no 5 minutes :-)))
so there is no wonder that you couldn't find the tenderness, simply because
you choose the raw sex from the beginning to be sure that no woman will be
able to touch you emotionally.....much too scary stuff to allow yourself to
go in a relation with much more isn't it??
so it was more easier to go in a relation where you will be acting your role
of responsible male: a strong picture of you and handy to hide behind; power
and control again because tenderness means being touch emotionnally and
being open to the other; means loosing and offering control and power
too....
but
> where was the tenderness? i had my restrictions too. i cound not sleep
> close to another person,especially a woman. give me two double beds and
> i am a king. night time is for sleeping. i had my quirks too.
> men are different animals. evening outdoor showers, middle of the day,
> exhausting activity to fall together and sleep in one bed. looking
> forward to bedtime was fun and interesting and the closer the better.
> men can be bitches too, straight or gay.
> i love women for their femeninity, and strength. physically, i can be be
> set on fire with an interest that pulls me like a magnet, but men are
> more interesting intelectually and physically. women are predictable;
********
i am curious to read how do you really believe that women are
predictable.....mostly we are well know for the opposite.....i should say
that your picture of the woman and your choices makes it easy for you to
believe that.......
i know that you are still surprise to see that a woman can have such "good
brain" as you said, but again it is easy to keep in touch only with what is
not scary and unpredictable......and other point, it is also possible that
you was not able to see the "good brain" or the intellect of the women ???
> men are complex. its always been this way for me.
> but that was then and this is now. the difference is in me. i don't want
> to define myself. i am no longer desparate. nuff for now. Cliff
>
yes, we are in the now and here working on the tomorrow...
see you in next post :-))
Anik
An
> spoilered for content of s'x
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> make a definition about my s'xuality was almost like k'lling off another
> part of me. for so many years i avoided the argument all together. i
> seemed to think i would wait to give myself a chance. i waited to long,
> for everything. its not enough to read another persons account; for a
> person who was so rigid to not even say the word d'ck, i need to mouth
> the words. it is important. sure there is grief. this is normal. Cliff
>
i don't think that you waited too long, i believe that we deal with issues
when we are ready and strong enought to endure it and to grow, so don't be
so hard on yourself and don't regret the times, you still have a lot of
time, a lot of possibilities, a lot of learning to do, it is up to you to
make something out of it; nobody will do it at your place.....you may need
to learn some new discipline but you are able to do it....
but if that can be of confort, i could tell you that about my definitions
about my sexuality: i have been hetero, homo, and also an angel: "asexuelle"
(meaning having and wanting no sex, having loose the need of it); i suppose
all this makes me what is called a bisexual personn, but anycase those are
only pictures, patterns and my sexuality doesn't makes the whole part of me
so i have always been against definitions: there is infinity and space
inside every human being.....identification with one "kind" or the other is
just moralistic, statistical and restrictive.......
on the other side, the only fact of questioning means that it is time for
love again.....
or at least to start with love......
that it shall be with a woman or a man is not the point, the point is
finding your true self and emotion and to follow it; it may not happen in
once, you will be searching but if you keep in mind to be attend and
conscious about what is happening, you will go on growing and learning and
you will find what you need because life just bring it to us.....
See you again next one :-))
Anik
An
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squirre...@webtv.net
I'll spoiler this for talk of s'x, s'ic'de and other stuff. this time i
hope to explain my thread. i really am ok :)
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know a little about what i experienced; confusion, fear, and unhappiness
is true. what is past, is past, tis also true. i see this now. But, or
BUTT HEAD, hehehe, how does one take responsibility for the past when it
must come up at timess? for example, i want to buy a g'n. there is the
formality of the application with the question, were you ever
hospitalized involutarily? answer, no, i drove myself. i want to be
honest, and i know the truth about the military situation which landed
me with a psychiatric diagnosis which i am marked with the rest of my
life. i bent to the pressures of a command that hid the truth of a
particular incident involving an officer, along with more cover ups (a
ra'pe, drug use, officer fraternization) which hurt many people in my
unit including myself. the best complint was when CGI came to me to ask
me what i knew, which was nothing, because Cliff was so focused and
involved with doing his job. all past yes, but it's there.
in the field of nursing, i went from Florida where i was fully employed,
a most trusted employee who cared mainly for women, to an area in West
Virginia where i couldn't be fully employed because the majority of
patients are women, and employers don't trust males to care for women. i
spoke up with one facility (i had to eat) and i was given a female
client with wonderful results. it was a hospice situation.
then there are the women who were in my life; yes, they didn't
understand my normal needs to m..st..rb..te (that is not mustard), and
took offence to this which hurt me. yes, some women do understand men,
and visa versa, but i don't want to explain myself any more to anyone.
i just get so tired of running into these road blocks of difficulty
where i have to think of reasons to explain myself. i want my present to
be clear and cleansed of guilt and shame. i don't want my wants to be
muddled up in the issues with a past i came through with so little
understanding, love and support. i was always willing to learn, and
learning was difficult without guidance.
i don't want to hide a thing anymore, not in relationships or in public,
but there is too much ignorance out there, with people who have more
power and influence than me. i was confused for too long, sorting out my
responsibility and figuring out things took a tremendous amount of time.
bottom line, it was a bitch at times. no more. everything i spoke about,
transvesticism, peep holers, etc. i understand. i was making a rather
weak point that i looked at diverse ways of s'xual practices to help
understand myself, eventhough these weren't my interests. in a way i was
looking into the things i was lumped into by ignorant people who
suspected me of being perverted by my experience with s'xual abuse. you
might say i took in a little too much :)) but what i do know now is i
have a right to have and admit to having s'xual needs and wants. YA-HOO!
and it dowsn't make me pervertted at all! big change from where i was.
it took me a long time to come to this conclusion. please respect that
(i know you all do). and bring it on baaaaby! thanks for not taking me
too seriously, cal about not wanting to be involved again and all, and
about my morbidity; what you miss in my words is a ...believe it or not,
survivor sense of humor. yep.
and about the g'n. it is important to me to view myself as a responsible
person acceptable and respected in my community and as a citizen
(especially since i began from a point of having no self respect) who
earned the exercising of his rights by standing for issues that were
good and decent regardless if i were gay, or poor, or by what i
practiced in privacy, and yes, s'xually abused.
yes, some of these fears are demons i create and continue to project,
but some are issues i have run into and, yes it pisses me off. it has
been important to me to vote, and be listened to at town meetings, and
purchase a g'n (not only because the su'cidal thoughts aren't there, but
because of responsible reasons). these actions may be insignificant and
unremarkable to some, but to me they meant a lot, sort of like a passage
of rites. i have seen more examples of mental stability, as well as
qualities of charachter i respect. since i have had so little support
in these areas, and because for so many years i doubted my ability to
comparitively qualify my worth and sanity, i think this is a lot.
sometimes my thinking was misled by my errors in understanding meanings
(definitions) to words. i think self understanding is important. words
are important too. crazy is a word too simple and terrifying, and the
term mental illness is a tough lable to place on one's self when the
meaning has a definite definition in psychology. i admit, i was ignorant
and condemed myself of things and felt guilt for things for so long
because i thought in to simple of terms. This is what i had sensed in
Jake's post. Just because one thinks they are guilty, doesn't mean they
are; just because one thinks they are crazy, and worthless doesn't mean
they are at all. Sometimes It takes another person on the other side of
the wall to point it out.
i am also saying that for a male (and female) survivor and for others
who don't fit into idealistic molds in society, or brush into the grey
zones with issues that stimulate prejudices, finding affirmative support
is difficult.
uh, smoking is a form of self harm isn't it? <cheesey grin>
anyway, i went on for too long with this. please forgive me because i
want to open up and sometimes i need to get warmed up. i start off
mealy-mouthed:) and hopefully i can get to goods sooner or later.
now about mastubation, i'm really hollering it out because some people
don't know it is normal. call it a celebration of the passage of shame.
i was never bragging or anything (humor), just informing my mother who
found a magazine and sanitized my room, and the two other women i knew
who went bazookas when they each found a porn magazine. beyond this, i
am quite norma :))) ~~laughing~~ i think? heeheehee
who's picking me up for the trip? i am sending a site of a place i
worked at in Key West. Let's get Panther to meet there! yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah....
now i will start, and i am ready to think about what I want !!!!!!!!!!
Anyone else ??? there's plenty of room in this ng.
Cal, have i really given the impression of being a push off? i might be
a little careful for others. its hard to know how i come off here in
the writen world. i was afraid at first. i think i have changed bunches.
fighting is not for me. i did change my nik and crept into aar and
hollered, "shut the fuck up flamers," and it felt so good :))) but
fighting isn't my style as a rule. should it be? it does have it's
place. i hate this one dimensional form of communicating, because i use
my facial expressions, hand jestures, and voice tones. this arena is
rather flat for me. i hope i am learning. thanks all, Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
and to answer something else briefly.
I don't have a problem with masculinity anymore. i was surprised to find
out when i became less conscious about it, i felt better. i really like
the way i feel now, imperfections and all. :) cliff
yam
spoiler...talk of mustard and corn below...it could get messy people...
<squirre...@webtv.net> wrote in message...
Kudos to you Cliff, for having the guts to open up the way you have and pour
out all these little pieces of yourself for all of us to mull over.
I like you Cliff, and so there's no tone of nastiness in this reply, I just
wanted to give you my point of view on the whole m*st*rb*t*on (yes, that is
supposed to spell mustard ;)) women/men thingy. I'm going off of what you
said in this post and in one a couple posts back when you first really
brought up the subject.
> now about mastubation, i'm really hollering it out because some people
> don't know it is normal. call it a celebration of the passage of shame.
> i was never bragging or anything (humor), just informing my mother who
> found a magazine and sanitized my room, and the two other women i knew
> who went bazookas when they each found a porn magazine. beyond this, i
> am quite norma :))) ~~laughing~~ i think? heeheehee
You're bringing up an interesting topic here. First of all, I want to say
that I'm sad for you that you've had such bad experiences. Ok, now I'll get
into my schpeel (spelling?) and remember, this is just one chickie's point
of view, I don't know if its the majority or the minority. Men and women
typically view s*xuality differently, maybe that comes from the placing of
the g*nitals, I don't know. It actually really bugs the heck out of me when
I hear of women being really hard on men about looking at *orn (so long as
its not something sick like CP or snuff or something bad like that, and by
the way, that *is* supposed to be corn;)) or about their mustardation
habits. As long as it doesn't become an obsession that interfers with daily
living, I don't see any harm in it. I also think that exploring one's own
body is an important part of s*x, you've gotta know how it works right?
I'll admit it, I'm a fan of mustard and corn and I enjoy a helping of one or
the other or both from time to time. Mustard is a bigger part of my diet
than corn is. Even though I've got problems with my own s*xuality, I don't
feel any shame in admitting that. Its natural dammit! :) As far as that
guy I live with (husband, whatever), I don't care how much mustard or corn
he has, I know he still likes me and I know that if/when I want him, he's
there. Oh, and here's another little factoid, I don't care if my husband
looks at other women around me, so long as he's not disrespectfull or lewd
about it. He's gonna do it anyway, no use getting bothered by it, besides,
I do it too. ;)
As far as the misunderstanding between men and women, I think its mostly
equal on both parts. There used to be a time when I didn't really
understand how men think or act, though I didn't realize it. Now, I think I
have a very good understanding. The main thing I try to remember is that
men and women communicate differently for the most part. With women its
repore, and with men its report. I guess we just need to recognize and
respect that the s*xes have different ways of looking at things sometimes.
I talk differently with men and women (those in my personal life), I treat
the relationships a little differently and it works for me.
> fighting is not for me. i did change my nik and crept into aar and
> hollered, "shut the fuck up flamers," and it felt so good :))) but
> fighting isn't my style as a rule. should it be? it does have it's
> place. i hate this one dimensional form of communicating, because i use
> my facial expressions, hand jestures, and voice tones. this arena is
> rather flat for me. i hope i am learning. thanks all, Cliff
I got a giggle out of the "shut the fuck up flamers" bit. Too cute! :) I
agree with you on the this form of communicating. I've seen a lot of
misunderstandings happen because you don't hear the voice tones or see the
body language. I've seen it happen the most in chat though. If its any
comfort, I think I get you most of the time. As for fighting, I think it
can happen so easy here because these are such touchy and emotional topics
we're dealing with. It can be easy to offend someone or to be offended by
someone and many times people aren't even aware they're being offensive.
I've found myself taking things personally when I shouldn't have, its
something I'm working on because I can do it in real life too (um...not to
say that this isn't real!).
take care Cliff!
and keep up the good work,
Amy
squirre...@webtv.net
Thanks Amy, you are very fine with me! :)) it was fun to holler out in
the other group (heeheehee) and Cal, i heard every word, and if
anything, i went quiet because i was taken aback at the fat, that i
suddenly realized, i had focused so much on me in various stages in my
life, i never really considered what i wanted. i asked myself this
question over and over again yesterday as i washed walls, and i could
not sleep, for a pressure developed on my chest below the ziphoid
procees, almost holding my breath, causing me to seemingly force my
lungs to take in air. i came to realize that i had never thought of
this and i had never known i had a choice, or choices for me alone. sad
isn't it? also sad is the thought of su'c'de, something i had developed
and considered even when I began to feel better about myself. i thought
i would never feel this good again, so now at the height of my living, i
would end it all after mr.b passed on. yes, very stupid reasoning. <deep
breath> i am finding more reasons to live.
i am at a point of making that decision of walking tall. i admit i don't
have much strength in confidence, but it is strong enough to believe in
myself enough so as not to sway with negative opinions of neighbors and
ignorant others (not refering to anyone here in this ng). i really set
some strong boundaries with them! i finally have enough positive
qualities to draw from, but i sure am raw.
thank you Amy for your sound words. if only i had heard these words from
real people along my path. Cal speaks words my soul understands. Not to
worry Cal, this webtv may have limitations for ng participation, but i
am ready for many things now. i go silent too, and need to absorb things
and this takes time.
when Jakob posted, i intuitively felt his pain and remembered my own
fear and confused thinkng.
i lived with such painful negative accusations which stuck to me (not
refering to anything child related). from the beginning of my school
years, i was pointed out only for ridicule; i couldn't follow directions
and when my teachers instructed me to help find things in a room, like a
book, my mind distorted time and perception. there were reading
problems, attention problems, and i was never picked out to be a part of
any group activity. once, i took interest in a science project which
involved a terrific teacher and another student. for the first time i
was in front of a class enjoying the attention and making the students
laugh with a teacher who took great interest in me. the fellow student
came to my house to visit and my m'ther went into one of her furries and
beat me infront of the one person i held to be important. no one ever
came back until i was in my teens, and this was scary for me. i am not
saying this to cry about it. much of it i understand now, but the point
is i cut off the world without knowing it and dealt with everything
alone. the critisizm i got outweighed the positive. i didn't do well in
school, so there were no awards; no sports, no trophies. i did have
friends who were somewhat the outcasts, and i was (and i am) thankful
for them. it wasn't until during and after the Coast Guard from '83 on,
i began to do little things that brought some positive attention, even
outweighing the difficulties i had gotten into when i was able to say to
myself, "It isn't my fault."
i lived with 'orn as a substitute, all along struggling through the
conflict of sexual identity, masculinity, shame, self worth, and guilt,
a horrible, horrible journey that interfered and preoccupied my life.
not the use of it, but the searching for understanding. in the service i
feared repremand from discovery, and yet i had to survive, to eat, so i
held back. i lost a relationsip with a decent woman to the tough
schedule we kept, and remained alone. when i found a fellow i cared for,
i was in heaven, or at least in peace. more than anything else, i didn't
fit in because i was never comfortable with being honest anywhere.
i have joined theatre groups, and other groups where i was accepted and
found encouragement, but survival was always on my mind, and even in the
theatre group, here in this country town, i could not release myself to
feel free.
i heard a therapist on PBS say about a woman whom he was seeing, that
she lived her life thinking and living as if the same negative results
were the norm. this struck a bell.
the past is past: what do i want? is it ok to cry tears for the thought
of this? i - am - here: and this is the singular most important thing i
know.
i've used enough words here in this ng to describe my pain, confusion,
conflicts, prejudices. i have opened up about my fears and my desires.
<funny. i hear embie saying something to me she shared once. i am
smiling a big grin>
may i ask all of you to share how a list like this is written? i really
want to see how this is done. in another thread perhaps? i REALLY want
to move on now with my life. thanks, cliff
linda2
squirre...@webtv.net wrote:
> may i ask all of you to share how a list like this is written? i really
> want to see how this is done. in another thread perhaps? i REALLY want
> to move on now with my life. thanks, cliff
A list of what you want to get from your life?
Linda
squirre...@webtv.net
yeah, "go away."
Go away because the earth under my feet doesn't stand still.
Go away because i don't have enough to offer.
Go away because i will probably have to leave.
Go away because you will discover that i am ugly inside.
Go away because i cry sometimes.
Go away because i really need you, and i might poison you.
Go away because i make mistakes.
Go away because i really don't know myself sometimes.
Go away because i will end up doing your dishes.
Go away because you might find out i like you bunches and i kinda don't
know how to express this without melting down a little and appearing
like a six year old and acting like i am dependent and i am not really.
Go away because i feel inferior and i might poison you.
Go away because i go silent sometimes and i need to be needed separatley
at times.
Go away because i might not be able to keep up.
Go away because i have gotten used to say this rather than hello.
Go away because i will let you down and when you get angry it hurts.
Go away because when i let you down, i hurt.
Go away because when you are sick i hurt.
Go away because as i watch you die and i want you to stay.
Go away because i might say i love you and i will then have to explain.
Go away beause your silence is louder than words.
Go away because i am not sure letting go of all this is over yet.
Go away, but stay please.
yeah, i do this. cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
*Go away because that thing that happened wasn't really that important
and that's why i never talked about it again and you over reacted to my
not mentioning it, and i didn't dare mention that you getting angry was
kinda cute and it was really hard to explain this, and i really didn't
want to take the time too because i was feeling good about life and this
doesn't happen often, so expalining things isn't something i have to
much patience for
*Go away because i might find out more about me
*Go away because i might not care for you as best as i should
*Go away because i might become attached and show i need you and this i
interpret as weakness sometimes
*Go away because i might try to stand on my feet and take a leap on my
own
*Go away because i need to pick your brains somemore and i might bother
you
*Go away because i you might not like me as much as i like you
*Go away because i have questions
*Go away because i like to give up on reality and pretend
*Go away because sometimes i am not in the same mood you might be
*Go away because i like to play still
end part two...
yeah, i've done this cliff
Freda Brodie
just tears running gently down my face, I am not sure why. Maybe it was
because I feel a connection with you through your posts. Maybe its because
I once had most of those feelings and tried to say all the go aways to
someone and that someone ignored them all and stood by me. That someone
being my present partner.
I don't know what the reason was but I just felt that I had to share with
you in your anger or was it hurt?
--
Luv'n'stuff
Freda
"Allow the child within you to grow and blossom and never attempt to
suppress its development."
squirre...@webtv.net
didn't want to piss the other woman off. Fear maybe?
Morbidly cute? Yeah. Sorry. Works better in real life i guess. I have a
little Tom Green in me, believe it or not. :) Cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
Hi Freda, i wrote this in a hurry after becoming clearly aware of a
pattern i have followed from a very early age, around nineth grade, and
performed here on this newsgroup for the past year. i have played this
pattern on this newsgroup with a great amount of success, i think :(( i
just didn't realze it. now i am angry about this (in a mild way) and i
am sad too, that i have done this all my life; running away from more
people and opportunities, than i ran towards. i am fed up with these
patterns and calling it quits. i am also being honest here so i can be
called on it (gently, i hope :) i wept too. then i got mad. i sent out
lifelines to people here, because i want to change. i deserve to be
free. i probably left out a few, like; go away because if you say you
love me, i'll have to give you my list of why you wouldn't want to.
Go away because i will have to tell you what i need. Now this last one
got to me because i don't know what, or how to express what i need,
beyond wanting to be loved. I mean, it isn't *that* bad, but i had
better think of a list, hadn't I?
cal is right. weave, weave, weave, but i will add to his analogy about
positioning myself in the middle of the web; i get stuck there too.
pretty embarrasing for a spider to get caught in his own web, huh?
well, this spider is going to spruce up, throw on the Old Spice, or
British Sterling, buy sneakers, and go vegetarian just in case someone
does get caught in the web. in other words, this web is for sale. :))
thanks, cliff
squirre...@webtv.net
Well Amy! I am so impressed! I also found his posting history and
several others he had posted on asarm. i was gong to mention this insest
thing, but in the middle of my post i literally ran out of time. Great
Job! I wonder if he will be back? If he does, i think he will look like
toast:)) You have guts! Good guts! :)) Cliff
yam
Thanks Cliff, but I don't think its guts so much as anger. Grrrrrrr!
;)
Amy
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