Am I Gay or Hopeless?

2 views
Skip to first unread message

Wynter...@webtv.net

unread,
Mar 30, 2000, 3:00:00 AM3/30/00
to
some people never want a sexual relationship of any kind, and you're not
alone i'm sure. if i were you, (here i am giving advice when i don't
know anything about this, but ok) i'd just wait on that until i was
ready....i don't know about you, but i've got a lot of growing up to do
mentally beforei can get into that kind of thing; going into things,
especially sex and affection, before you've hashed everything else out
can turn out to be a big mistake. i know it's hard to do, but maybe you
ought to give yourself some time before you get into a relationship with
anyone, gay or otherwise. it seems to me like you've got to learn to
live before you can learn to love; although, you may never be ready to
love, who knows? you may be ready next month, i have no idea. or maybe
it'll take one specific person. but you can't wait around for someone
else to take care of you, either. i don't know, anyway, if i were you
i'd just play it by ear (which is what i'm doing too, so yes, i'm
following what i'm
saying).وووووووووووووووووووو
wynter

http://members.tripod.com~midees/FILM/edscisrh.mid --music to read by


Not only the dead haunt the living


<html>
<body
bgcolor="black"text="gold"></body></html>


SunlitTarn

unread,
Apr 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/1/00
to
From: "Listen2thelion" <listen2...@yahoo.com>
> I just turned 29. I'm a guy. I've never had a sexual
> relationship with anyone, male or female, aside from
> the standard childhood experimentation

What you have is called a phobia. And there are
very good treatments for phobias. I recommend
you find a psychiatrist who is not afraid to prescribe
controlled drugs. Try to obtain a prescription for
Vallium. Take a course in professional massage. If
you feel anxious giving or receiving a non-sexual
massage, take a Vallium before you go to class.

Find an understanding partner and practice non-
sexual touching of the body and intimate body parts.
The process is called desensitization. There
are people who are terrified of kittens. Fear can
be overcome. Once you overcome your fear at
touching intimate body parts, you should experience
some kind of sexual arousal or excitement.

You should also have your serum level testosterone
checked. Low levels of testosterone can cause a
low or non-existant libido. How are your secondary
sex characteristics? How often do you have to
shave?

It is quite possible you have some combination of low
testosterone, phobia of sex and negative emotions
related to sexual experiences. If a rat is shocked
everytime it tries to eat a certain food it enjoys,
it will lose enjoyment for that food. In A Clockwork
Orange, one of the characters whose favorite pastime
was listening to Motzart couldn't stand listening
to Motzart after going through behavior aversion therapy.
There are cures for this, but you have to want a desire
you don't currently have. Most people don't choose
to have desires they don't already possess. So it will
require mental discipline on your part to go through the
motions even though at first they may give you no
pleasure, and may even cause you discomfort.

The more you excercise the stronger you become. The
more you use your brain the stronger it becomes. The
libido is the same. Use it or lose it. Now that you've
lost it, in order to get it back you need to force yourself
to go through the motions. With the right mental
attitude though, your libido may come back to life.

You also need to explore your relationship with your mother
with a psychiatrist. Was it good, bad, inappropriate? How
did your parents bring you up to view sex? Positively or
negatively? Did you ever see your parents engage in sex?
Did you ever see your mother nude? Did you ever have bad
experiences with girls when you were a child other than this
baby-sitter incident?

Do you masturbate? How often? What were your first
experiences with masturbation like? What do/did you
think about when you masturbate? Do you ever have
sexual dreams? Do you ever have sexual fantasies?
What was your early experimentation with sex like?
Did you feel anything? If so, what?

If all else fails, you can always find a female who has a
low libido herself, or who has her own sexual phobias.
I am not being facetious.

greg

unread,
Apr 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/1/00
to
hello,
to read your posting brings many memories of my own history. coming out
of my experiences being afraid of sex. so many can talk of being alone.
yet there seems to be so few who can't even seem to have sex period.
there is much advice that is offered. many people have their own ideas.
but like abuse if you've never been in this particular spot it's hard to
have the depth of knowing what this is like.

it seems we get many imprints from the experiences we had during our
formative years. i found my self wanting male/male sex for a long time.
and to be afraid of women. so afraid when they took off their clothes in
front of me i couldn't touch them. horny alright but scared.

i struggled with my own sexuality for a long time. being abused as a
child then as a young adult. so ashamed that the older incidents were of
my own doing. so maybe i am gay. i couldn't even talk about this to
anyone even after i started my healing process. only the abuse that
happened when i was younger.

the books talk about being confused about your sexuality. it's an effect
of the abuse. the books talk about the kind of things you experienced
creating the fear in women. for me the sexual assaults and abuse i went
through created the want for gay sex it seems. it was the only sex i
learned. the church talked about not having premarital sex, sex with
women but not this kind. so i thought it was okay. but i didn't. and
some how kept it from happening in my life.

am i curious? sure. would i like to try it? i think so at times. but on
my terms. so it hasn't happened and probably won't. until i can heal and
make an adult choice. and i am fascinated by women.

but also i am terrified of women. after 7 months of therapy twice a week
and writing like 15,000 pages and reading all i can find; basically
totally immersing my self in healing my life totally. i saw that i was
afraid of letting anyone near me physically and emotionally.

so much so that i myself have been without sex for but once in 15 years.
no intimate relationships at all. and absolutely no one who seems to
understand this. no books about this. ( there is a web site called
alana's involuntary celibacy page for anyone who'd like to explore this
issue) they all talk about difficulties with your partner this your
partner that.

do i have a phobia? probably. but until i get to the core issues by
relentlessly inquiring and being mindful of every feeling and action.
will i heal. i personally don't want drugs but thought for years that
was the only way to help. everyone is different. every path taken is a
personal journey.

when i did finally start to open up even my feelings to someone it was a
man. and when this friend seemed to reject me, seemed to abandon me and
i spoke of this. spoke because if this person wouldn't be my friend no
one in the world ever would be. i broke down. and saw that no woman
could ever get near me because of all the abandonment issues with my own
mother. no one helped me.

but more to the point it took decades for me to open up. i'm 46 and
never spoke much to anyone of my abuse. and i finally spoke to some one.
and they cared. and helped. if it wasn't for this friend and his wife i
wouldn't be where i am today. even this webtv internet connection was a
gift from them. to help me search for help. for information.

then i began to see how far reaching the effects of abuse are. how it
effects every aspect of a persons life. how all you are going through
can be healed and understood with help. i didn't believe it at first.
the beginning days of healing can be pretty rough. me a past workaholic
took almost three months off because i couldn't even work. because i
began to feel all the sorrow for what i experienced. not block it out
only to have it come out in all the other ways.

so to get back to your questions. yes it's all from the abuse. it's
funny that you posted this question. as this very topic was what i
wanted to pose for discussion here and will soon.
it seems not many suffer from this sexual lack of experience. lack of
any sex. but we are out here. and i want it talked about more. we want
our own book devoted to this horrible effect of abuse. even those who
weren't abused suffer the same thing.

you are not alone with this experience. but first start you own journey
to heal. ~ greg


Wynter...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/1/00
to
are you a freudian? "what was your relationship with your mother"... i
can just see you stroking a little goatee and speaking ina bad hungarian
accent. and my god, VALIUM for crying out loud? it seems that everyone
wants to prescribe meds for everything, up to taking paxil just to be
around people more, and while i'm not saying they aren't good most of
the people i've known who took meds like prozac or paxil or lithium or
valium or zyban have been more harmed than anything else, and usually it
didn't help anyway. drugs aren't the answer for every frackin' thing in
the world!!!!!! other than that, though, at least you did try to help
in the way you knew how, so i guess i should shut up about it.

Heaven's clan

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
In article <2000040205...@asarian-host.org>, Cal <cal@asarian-
host.org> writes
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Listen2thelion <listen2...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> What do I want?
>> I guess that really is the question. How about a 'normal' life with a
>> wife, kids, dog and a picket fence? Not bloody likely. Certainly not
>> for a gay guy.
>
>i wouldn't bet the farm on that one. gay men have been marrying women and
>raising kids with them for a long time. it's one of many ways to go, and
>given the nature of the social pressures we live under, maybe not the most
>unreasonable. this whole "living in the closet" business is much more a
>political issue, and the stigma attached to it comes from politicized gays
>who, of course, are also responding to social pressure. just in a different
>manner.
>
>i accept reading i've done to the effect that sexual orientation isn't a
>clear-cut either/or for about 80% of the population. of the remaining 20%,
>about half are exclusively gay and half are exlusively straight, exclusively
>meaning that they utterly lack ambiguity about having sex any other way.
>the vast majority of us are lined up along a continuum of ambiguity between
>the two extremes, and are gay or straight *on balance*.
>
>so, to interpet... most of us have the potential to be actively bisexual to
>varying degrees. but i think most of us aren't actively bisexual, at least
>not through most of our lives. instead, we make a choice somewhere along
>the line and settle down with it. i think the well-adjusted among us make a
>choice in accordance with the weightier side of their "balance". the
>maladjusted (such as moi) make addle-brained choices and act against our
>natures and our hearts' true desires, not because we're muttons for
>punishment but because we've been diddled and messed up by abuse and get a
>lot of stuff wrong even when we try our hardest.
>
>cal
I fully accept what your saying but disagree with your figures..

I'm afraid you have been biased by the gay propaganda machine to some
great extent..


the figures as produced by Gloucester & Richie in UK 198? suggest
figures more like this..

40% ambiguous hetero/gay
20% exclusively gay
30% exclusively hetero
10% undefined.


the hetero fraternity use these figures to mean ambiguous means hetero..

this gives a general population BELIEF that 80% are hetero as it
includes 10% undefined +30% exclusively hetero + 40% ambiguous

which is obviously wrong.
as is the gay propaganda presumption that ambiguous means gay!!


from this it can only be estimated at 30% exclusive hetero +50% (40%
ambiguous + 10% undefined) divided by two ( as two categories)
30% + 25%= 55% hetero
by the same equation
20% exclusively gay +25%= 45% gay
with a 5% totally unknown that cannot be added to either side..

these to be known as 'others' ( can they mean the inflatable sheep
brigade??){ my own dumb emphasis.. as am not sure what 'others' can be!}

of which.. the numbers of closet gays must equal 45% of population minus
the known gay population (approx. 9%) {many exclusive gays are still in
the 'closet'.}

thusly of the population 100%
55% hetero
9% known gays ( not in closet)
5% 'others' ( inflatable sheep etc.)
31% closet gays...

what fun statistics...

Glad to be one of the 55%.... I think!
Vince...
--
it is my prerogative to be daft, so i will!


Heaven's clan

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
In article <29180-38E...@storefull-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Wynter...@webtv.net writes
I must differ here..

the presumption being all meds are bad. and make things worse..

well.. that's a generalisation..

from my experience I would argue that drugs like valium, prozac, and
the ilk are the short term stopgap, to put the problem on hold until the
real therapies, be they counselling, change of life style , whatever..
take effect..

they are meant as a short term fix till the real work is done..

a bit like the water pump in the flooded basement.. keeps the water
level down till the builders can get in and repair the drains...

sure you can keep the pump running long term and not fix the pipes..
but then the building foundations will suffer.. maybe bring the house
down..

but it is necessary to keep the water level under control till the
builders can get to work.. then turn off the pumps.. and let the drain
work properly..

prozac takes down the level of imbalance.. counselling repairs the
system..

hope that makes sense..

continued use of any medication really is a poor choice..

Gregory Giro

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
plumbing leaks
the problem with stop gap measures is that they tend to take the edge
off the problems. i've been doing that for years. with lots of things
besides drugs. i just think when the pressure is off to work on issues
it's easy to say let it slide.
if my back wasn't up against the wall thinking my whole world was
crashing down i would have gone another 40 years and not address
anything. sort of like my parents did. then guess what? your dead. stop
gap alright. most of us say it can wait. call the plumbers later. like
never.

on gayness
just remember that abuse tends to make you question your orientation. i
could be bi. but as said never act on it. but thank god i didn't have
someone telling me to fully explore that when i was vulnerable and
messed up. it is a difficult issue and a minefield. maybe you have to be
more at peace with yourself first before getting to that question first.
some say we have a choice in all we do. i'd never say that too loud as
the politics get in the way. not much of a choice for most of us. kind
of like saying i had a choice to chose how i coped with what happened.
we all change that is the important thing to remember. what worked then
doesn't work now. just some ideas. nothing set in stone for me. greg


anona...@my-deja.com

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
Wynter...@webtv.net wrote:
> are you a freudian? "what was your relationship with your mother"
> ... i can just see you stroking a little goatee and speaking ina
> bad hungarian accent.

No, I am not Freudian, and what I proposed was not theory.
There are countless studies which show that children's
relationship with the parent of the opposite gender has
a profound effect on who they find sexually attractive,
and whether or not they hate the opposite sex. An underlying
hatred/disgust/dislike/lack of respect of the opposite sex
can cause a loss of libido, and/or homosexual feelings.

> and my god, VALIUM for crying out loud? it seems that everyone
> wants to prescribe meds for everything,

Again, I was not giving theory but proven, successful
treatment techniques. Valium is very usefull for helping
people overcome phobias and anxieties. Valium used in
this manner has very little chance of becoming addictive,
and rarely produces deleterious side effects. If you have
a better method for helping people overcome phobias and
anxiety, you should publish your research.

> the people i've known who took meds like prozac or paxil
> or lithium or valium or zyban have been more harmed than
> anything else, and usually it didn't help anyway.

Well, most people who use these drugs feel otherwise,
and so do the people who professionally evaluate them.

> drugs aren't the answer for every frackin' thing in
> the world!!!!!!

Noone suggested they were.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


Wynter...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
i may not have a better way of writing a novel than doing it on a
computer, but does that mean that if the damned thing crashes i can't
use an ink-pen? just a thought.

Wynter...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
and as for most people feeling otherwise about the psych drugs, let me
put it this way: i've known 12 people who have been on these kinds of
meds; 9 of them had nothing but complaints about side effects and
what-not, and the problems which made them seek the drugs were still
there. not to mention people trying to get their kids put on ritalin
just because they get hyper at a birthday party, or running to the
medicine cabinet when they get the blues. it just seems to me like we
(by which i mean the american population) run to drugs for everything
under the sun-a pill to lose weight, a pill to quit smoking, a pill to
stop depression- rather than trying other methods in conjunction with
the meds or before the meds.

Heaven's clan

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
In article <10815-38...@storefull-285.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Gregory Giro <GG...@webtv.net> writes

>plumbing leaks
>the problem with stop gap measures is that they tend to take the edge
>off the problems. i've been doing that for years. with lots of things
>besides drugs. i just think when the pressure is off to work on issues
>it's easy to say let it slide.
which is why the whole package should come from one source..

the medications should be prescribed and the follow up real work done
via one outlet.. so that the medications are not aloud to continue
unless other works are progressing..

Runonempty2lng

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
I just wanted to say I am one of those people who take Depakote to take the
edge off of my disorder. I cannot take it unless I am in active therapy. My
therapist works with my P-Doc, and I see them both. My Depakote use is called
off the label use because I am not Bipolar. I agree that at times, it will
take the edge off to the point I don't want to go to therapy anymore. Then
there are other times it will not even touch the surface of my angst.
I think each person is different and what works for me, may not work for
someone else. Just a thought.
Nikki


ka...@nospan.iastate.edu

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
In <2000040217...@asarian-host.org> Cal <c...@asarian-host.org> writes:

><anona...@my-deja.com> wrote...


>> Again, I was not giving theory but proven, successful
>> treatment techniques. Valium is very usefull for helping
>> people overcome phobias and anxieties. Valium used in
>> this manner has very little chance of becoming addictive,
>> and rarely produces deleterious side effects. If you have
>> a better method for helping people overcome phobias and
>> anxiety, you should publish your research.

>hm.. ok, i don't much care if you're a freudian or not, but at this point i
>do want to ask if you're a mental health professional. you're sounding like
>one to the extent that, in all fairness, i think you should lay out your
>credentials for diagnosing phobias and recommending treatment in such a
>clinical manner.

>cal

my concern when i saw the first post "recommending" valium and specific
therapies was the tone as much as anything. "Valium might be helpful to
you; many people have used valium to help overcome phobias and anxieties"
is a WHOLE lot different than "You need to find a doctor to prescribe
valium for you". Personally, I dont' see how anyone can state what
someone else *needs* with that much confidence on the basis of one post
here, or even several. OR even a pattern....

Kari Beth
--
***************************fuzzies!******************************
from lizbeth! ka...@nospan.iastate.edu
aka Kari Beth (remove "nospan")

Check out The Comforter Network!
http://www.comforternetwork.org

*****************************************************************


anona...@my-deja.com

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
heali...@webtv.net (greg) wrote:
> hello, to read your posting . . .

Hello Greg,

SunlitTarn and Anona_Moose are one in the same.

ka...@nospan.iastate.edu

unread,
Apr 2, 2000, 4:00:00 AM4/2/00
to
sunli...@aol.com (SunlitTarn) writes:

>From: "Listen2thelion" <listen2...@yahoo.com>
>> I just turned 29. I'm a guy. I've never had a sexual
>> relationship with anyone, male or female, aside from
>> the standard childhood experimentation

snip a whole bunch of stuff that might or might not be helpful but which
came across to me as pedantic at best, overblown, egotistical and
downright insensitive....but then that's just me.


>If all else fails, you can always find a female who has a
>low libido herself, or who has her own sexual phobias.
>I am not being facetious.

Did you miss the point? Maybe he'd prefer to find a supportive male
partner who wants to help him work through his issues. Maybe he would
prefer to find inner strength and the courage and peace to not NEED a
partner who happens to have the appropriate problems that interface with
his. Maybe he would like to explore some options rather than being told
what to do and how to go about by someone who hasn't a clue what he's
really asking!

Of course, I'm probably over reacting because I am a female who has a low
libido (although that varies...with a supportive caring partner a lot of
things are different) and I'm really working hard on building my own life
so that when I meet the strong independent supportive woman that I'd like
to have as a life partner, I will be strong, independent, and supportive
in return. I do NOT want to be the "needy" member of the partnership
nor do I want to be the "strong" one. Having been in both sorts of
codependent relationships, I'd rather be alone than deal with the issues
that are created by those sorts of situations.

Ah, well...this wasn't really about me. But somehow I always end up
talking about myself.... Sorry, Mom, you couldn't beat it out of me.

anona...@my-deja.com

unread,
Apr 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/3/00
to

> hm.. ok, i don't much care if you're a freudian or
> not, but at this point i do want to ask if you're a
> mental health professional. you're sounding like
> one to the extent that, in all fairness, i think
> you should lay out your credentials for diagnosing
> phobias and recommending treatment in such a
> clinical manner. > cal


I readily admit that I am not a mental health
professional and I have no credentials. I still
believe the content of post was accurate.

anona...@my-deja.com

unread,
Apr 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/3/00
to
ka...@NOSPAN.iastate.edu wrote:
> my concern when i saw the first post "recommending"
> valium and specific therapies was the tone as much
> as anything. "Valium might be helpful to you; many
> people have used valium to help overcome phobias
> and anxieties" is a WHOLE lot different than "You
> need to find a doctor to prescribe valium for you".

I never used the word "need," nor did I ever write
the quote you ascribe to me. I do apologize
for anything in my tone that you might have found
offensive.

> Personally, I dont' see how anyone can state what
> someone else *needs* with that much confidence on
> the basis of one post here, or even several. OR
> even a pattern....

Once again, I never stated what anyone "*needs*."
This is a false attribution. Nor did I express
"confidence" that my recommendations would be
successful. To the contrary, at the end, I
suggested they might not be successful. But
I very stongly believe that what I wrote was
good, sound advice, advice that is just not my
own, but that of experts in the field.

anona...@my-deja.com

unread,
Apr 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/3/00
to
Wynter...@webtv.net wrote:
> and as for most people feeling otherwise about the psych drugs,
> let me put it this way: i've known 12 people who have been on
> these kinds of meds; 9 of them had nothing but complaints about
> side effects and what-not, and the problems which made them seek
> the drugs were still there.

I would like to suggest that your experiences are atypical.

> not to mention people trying to get their kids put on ritalin
> just because they get hyper at a birthday party

I doubt this has ever been the case.

> it just seems to me like we (by which i mean the american
> population) run to drugs for everything

It could be because many people find them effective. I knew
numerous people that are perfectly normal with drugs, but
howl naked at the moon without them. I learned this from
a stint managing a low rent hotel.

> under the sun-a pill to lose weight, a pill to quit smoking,
> a pill to stop depression- rather than trying other methods

I think the people who seek psychiatric care have tried
other methods. There are many people who can't lose weight,
quit smoking or stop depression without pills. Would you
discourage someone suffering from diabetes from taking their
medicine? It sounds to me you are promoting the Spartan-
Puritan-Stoic viewpoint or that you have some personal
issues with science and technology: "These new-fangled
motor vehicles are nothing but trouble, they will never
replace the horse and buggy."

Amy B

unread,
Apr 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/3/00
to

Cal wrote in message <2000040315...@asarian-host.org>...

>ok, some people are obese for medical reasons rather than overeating and
>underactivity. but this is a small minority. more than half of adult
north
>americans are overweight and it seems to me they'll go to almost any
>lengths... sue philip morris, sue macdonald's, take amphetamines, fork out
>big shekels at health clubs where they sit on exercise bikes reading the
>paper in a $200 track suit... to get out of having to face the hard and
real
>and simple solution.

Not sure how small a minority you might be talking about. it is estimated
that 20% of all women suffer from PCOS, a gynecological disease. Most of
these women have what is called insulin resistance (a type of diabetes).
The best way to explain insulin resistance is like this. For a normal
healthy person, at any given time, no matter what they have eaten, their
insulin level stays between 4-14. Now, in someone that is insulin
resistant, the body continually must pump out more insulin because what is
pumped out is normally is not controlling the glucose levels. My last labs
for insulin levels were as follows. Fasting - 81, 1 hour after eating >400.
400 is the top of the scale, beyond that they can not know how much insulin
is actually in the blood stream. Anything that high, toxicates the body.
Everytime a persons insulin levels go that high there is a chance for them
to gain weight they can not take off without medication. I don't mean diet
pills or weight loss pills, I mean oral diabetes medication, such as
glucophage.

My point of course is that there are lots of people that are obese and
really can't help it, even those of us with PCOS can only loose some much
weight, we will never be thin.

have a good day!!

Amy

Wynter...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/3/00
to
p.s.---about the "newfangled horse and buggies" remark....lmao. ok, you
caught me...but i'm still not giving up my position!!!!
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages