{ASSD} Self-Spotlight on "Vanessa and Me"
Shon Richards
where I try to make sense of the weirdness I have seen in writing and
creativity in general. It is the first part in an open-ended series but it
is also meant to be self-contained. Read it and rest assure that it won't
leave you hanging.
Gary was kind enough to write me a spiffy webpage for it and you can find it
at http://www.asstr.org/~gary/VAM/ Better yet, since Gary is doing it, it
will be updated as soon as I write a new chapter.
In a way, this is a story for writers about writers. That means I would
really enjoy your opinion on it. Heck, you can even DISCUSS it here.
Really.
--
Head Warlock of the Coven of Bliss
Shon Richards
Adventure Stories of Mine and Others can be found at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
Romance Stories of mine are hosted by Gary at http://www.asstr.org/~gary/
"You're my baby girl you know that you are.
You're my honeybunch, yeah my sweet lucky star
So put your hand in mine and I'll slap your sweet behind.
You're my baby girl."- 2gether
Rachael
> I posted my latest project to ASSM. Yep, it's a project. It's a story
> where I try to make sense of the weirdness I have seen in writing and
> creativity in general. It is the first part in an open-ended series but it
> is also meant to be self-contained. Read it and rest assure that it won't
> leave you hanging.
>
> Gary was kind enough to write me a spiffy webpage for it and you can find it
> at http://www.asstr.org/~gary/VAM/ Better yet, since Gary is doing it, it
> will be updated as soon as I write a new chapter.
>
> In a way, this is a story for writers about writers. That means I would
> really enjoy your opinion on it. Heck, you can even DISCUSS it here.
> Really.
>
>
First, I'm interested in finding a writing group for writers of
erotica. If anyone knows of one could they please post an address?
Thank you.
---
Here are some thoughts for Shon and the story posted for review. The
story is quoted with single quotes.
Detail thoughts ...
'Early Sunday morning was the best time for me to visit the local art
gallery. There were no crowds and I was free to stare at a painting
for as long as I wanted without having to move out of the way for
courtesy's sake. The few people who were there as early as me usually
avoided the other patrons.'
The above sentences taken together are either illogical or mix tenses
incorrectly. The 'usually' in the last sentence indicates repetitive
actions. If this is true, the entire section would appear to require
present tense to indicate same. "Early Sunday morning is ... There are
no crowds ... The few people who are there ... " Or, if this is really
supposed to describe a one-off occurrence, 'usually' is out of place.
'As a writer, I appreciate the importance of an audience but as an
audience, I prefer to enjoy other's creativity alone.'
There were so many self-referential sentences in the story such as the
above that I didn't get the idea that this was fiction until well into
the work. There are times when telling people how a character feels is
okay, but it should be done in a way that doesn't seem intrusive.
Starting the sentence with "As a writer ... " is probably not the best
way to introduce the reader to the main character's occupation. It
came across to me like pontification instead of sharing.
'I was examining a colorful painting when I noticed a woman standing
beside me. It annoyed me greatly. She was breaking the unspoken rule
about patrons avoiding each other. I decided to ignore her until she
went away.'
The facts revealed in the above sentences seem out of order. It flows
better for me when events proceed from "enjoying a picture" to 'having
my concentration disturbed by a woman who walked up next to me" to "I
decided to ignore her."
I've attended many art shows and never once heard anyone say they were
"examining a colorful painting." I've found that people observe art
for an emotional experience and this description is about as far away
from emotions as one can get. I was also troubled by the second part
of the sentence. It would seem that a person would not just notice a
person standing next to them. There must have been some event such as
coming into line of sight, walking up next to and a variety of actions
other than indicating that the character is some sort of absent minded
professor.
'Writing was fun to me but I couldn't say it matched the heady
excitement of sex, but then I thought about it. When I start a story,
I get a feeling of excited terror that comes from praying that
everything works out right. I knew I could write, and I knew I could
be good, but I still had that lack of faith in myself that was similar
to the stage-fright I felt when I was with a new lover.'
Even though this is a first person story, I found the continuous
references to "I" tedious. There are approximately 2000 words in the
piece with 161 uses of "I". The above passage is just one example of
the problem which occurs throughout the story.
The first sentence contains another example of mixing tenses. "Writing
is fun ..." should be used to express a continuing feeling. If this is
a one time thought, the reader needs more explanation. Writing in the
first person is an attempt at story telling. I can't imagine a
storyteller using a phrase like "... the heady excitement of sex ..."
as he or she sat around the campfire shooting the breeze. It appears
that the whole paragraph is included so the author can inject the
comparison between sex and writing. This is very obvious and painful
to read.
'A wet sound made me turn slightly to look at the woman. My curiosity
is like that. She was older than me by about ten years but she was
sucking loudly on a lollipop.'
I have no idea what "wet" would sound like, but I do know it would not
cause me to "turn slightly." The poorly constructed sentences does not
seem to be the sort of thing one would say when telling a story like
this. The "curiosity" statement seems unnecessary and also interferes
with the information flow. The final sentence could have been written
in many better ways than shown here.
'She was older than me by about ten years but she was sucking loudly
on a lollipop. Not in that sexy, teasing, mock-innocent licking that
women use to seduce men either.'
The first part of sentence is not very useful. The reader does not
know how old the narrator is so adding years to his or her age is not
possible. Adding the second phrase using the word "but" seems like a
poor construction. I think there are many better ways of conveying the
thought "sucking loudly" instead of using these words. The final
sentence telegraphs to me that this is a story by a man who is going
to use a variety of man-cliches in the rest of the story. The image is
pure man fantasy and disjointed as used here.
'It might have been inappropriate for a woman of her age to suck a
lollipop in an art gallery but this woman didn't give a fuck.'
The use of an omniscient first person narrator hurts most fiction. I
think it would have been better for the story to be in third person
with a change in point of view instead of the narrator "knowing"
things like this for no obvious reason.
'She had on a plain black t-shirt decorated with a few gold necklaces
and a single snake bracelet on her wrist. Plain blue jeans clad her
legs and they looked worn and comfortable. The thin stick of her candy
poked from between her dark red lips, though I'm not sure if it was
lipstick or candy that coated them. I couldn't quite see her eyes
through her sunglasses and I wondered about what kind of a person
attends an art gallery with sunglasses on.'
I don't care for a break in a story where the author decides to
describe a character. In this case it's worse than usual since the
description is illogical as seen in these phrases " ... a plain black
t-shirt decorated with a few gold necklaces ... ", and " Plain blue
jeans clad her legs and they looked worn and comfortable." I know
that the tee-shirt was not wearing the necklaces and it's unlikely
that her legs would be described as worn and comfortable, I just hated
reading it that way. The last two sentences seem very forced, almost
as if the author realizes how boring the description is and decided to
add some "flourishes" to provide a bit of literary value.
'She had a raw vibration to her that reminded me of worn typewriters
and dirty easels.'
The above sentence is one example of an attempt to add literary value
without giving it much thought. I have no idea what the author was
trying to convey here. How does "vibration" fit with "typewriters" and
easels" and why would they be used?. The narrator is a writer and at
an art show, but this is no excuse for the sentence.
'"Don't go anywhere," she whispered. "I've had students before, and
banged my head against the wall to get them to listen to me. I've had
some students who were eager to learn but unable to follow
instructions. And I've had students who would listen and follow
instructions, but didn't create any spark in me. That's a dead
relationship, and what I could impart was limited. Consider this your
test of apprenticeship."'
Try saying this out loud to see if it sounds like something a real
person would say.
'My thumb brushed through thick hair and found her button. It was
swollen and pulsing with need. Using my thumb as an anchor, I
stiffened my fingers and fucked her sex in earnest. I wished I could
see the intimate part of her that my fingers were so deep into but I
found that my imagination was creating it vividly in my head. I could
see the folds, the pink lips and the dark, dark hair of her secret
place in my mind.'
I had to sort out these sentences to understand what they meant.
Frequently, the author found it necessary to explain things in far too
much detail. It's often better to let people use their imagination. In
another part of the story, there are details about how it was possible
for the narrator to get his hand into the woman's pants. Why waste
time with things like that. Readers are smart enough to figure these
things out on their own and would prefer more time spent with the
details of what was going on in the pants and not how the hand got
there.
'My fingers curled and pushed into her sex. It was warm inside and the
clenching invited my fingers in. The degree of moisture surprised me.
My fingers were soaked in an instant.'
I suspect most women would prefer a straight finger to glide smoothly
into her sex. I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel with someone trying
to jam a curled one in there. I understand the author imagined how a
person could give a hand job to someone who still has her panties on,
but he didn't manage to convey this to me in the sentences quoted
above. It might have been better to have the hand hold the woman's wet
pussy as her finger slid into ... " which would be easier for me to
see and provide a way to eliminate a lot of the hard to understand
verbiage highlighted above.
The sentence, 'It was warm inside and the clenching invited my fingers
in.', was a challenge to decipher and broke my concentration. Not a
good thing at anytime, but certainly a low point during a sex scene.
The last two sentences are overkill and appear to be an attempt to
give the same image twice and so neither one is very effective.
I'm going to stop at this point with the detail critique as it would
become redundant. The same errors appear again and again and pointing
them out seems unnecessary.
General thoughts ...
Initially, I thought this was some sort of non-fiction reminiscence
about poor manners in art museums. It took awhile before I realized
the story was going to be about a relationship. If I was reading for
pleasure, I doubt I would have made it past the first few paragraphs.
I need a story to start with a hook and build from there. Endless
description reminds me of fiction from days gone by and I doubt I will
ever acquire a taste for writing that has the narrator describing all
sorts of minutiae before giving me an idea of where the story is
going.
The story is about two people having sex in an art gallery. This is
something I find interesting and the story could have been provocative
and arousing. Forcing all the writing stuff into the story and trying
to include a variety of comparative information about art, writing and
sex resulted in a clumsy and very difficult to read mishmash. The sex
scene was not very exciting for me for the reasons mentioned in the
prior section. I wish the author had spent more time on the sex scene
and less on trying to create a story about a writer in an art museum.
I like a story that varies the pace and voice. In this case I felt
like I was going down a long boring highway - da da, da da, da da, da
da, ... - with the narrator saying, " ... and then this happened, and
then this happened, and this happened ... " I wanted something to
really happen, but it never did. The dialog did not remind me of real
dialog. There was far too much description and not enough pictures. It
was almost as if the author was telling the reader about a story he'd
read instead of telling the story. I never felt tension or excitement
even though the story provided ample opportunities for this to happen.
I think a story should begin in action. I would have gotten right into
something that started with
My finger slid easily into her pussy. I was terrified. People were
close by and we could've been caught at any time. No, it was not a
typical Sunday morning at the art museum.
This story did not open in action. Instead we have a confusing
description from the narrator about being a writer who seems very
young and yet has a strong taste for art since he attends the art
museum on a regular basis. Even so, he can't convey his interest in
art to the reader when he describes the viewing of a picture with
words no art lover would use.
The first very long part of the story does not contain sex and instead
is a buildup for the concept of a writer in a story along with an
attempt to include comparisons between writing and sex. None of this
worked for me and could have been replaced with a few well crafted
paragraphs. These would have come after a hook that let me know I was
reading erotica.
When we do get into the sex scene, there is no real tension. Having
the older woman grab the narrator's hand and jam it down her pants
should have been drawn out and described in far more detail that used
here. Most readers like to know the details of how something exciting
can happen and not just, "We were standing next to each other in an
art museum and she jammed my hand down her loose jeans and her loose
panties ... " The scene could have been so much more and yet it
fizzled.
I would say the author has an exceptional idea that he wasted in this
story. I suspect he started with the concept of writing a story about
a writer so he could post it here to start a discussion. A noble
though, but all the discussion about the writer seems forced and
contrived. The rest of the story suffers from neglect.
I would like to see what the author could do with the idea of an older
woman and a younger man in an art museum. How does she get him to give
her a hand job? How does he feel about it? Does he resist at first?
Does he lack experience? These are the important things in the story
and the rest simply prevented them from being developed.
Shon Richards
"Rachael" <rachae...@aussiemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:ddc5d5bc.02031...@posting.google.com...
> "Shon Richards" <shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<TLnj8.14282$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> erotica. If anyone knows of one could they please post an address?
> Thank you.
>
I could be wrong, but I think this group is one. Feel free to wade in
and discuss something. :)
> ---
>
> Here are some thoughts for Shon and the story posted for review. The
> story is quoted with single quotes.
>
> Detail thoughts ...
>
<Snip>
> I'm going to stop at this point with the detail critique as it would
> become redundant. The same errors appear again and again and pointing
> them out seems unnecessary.
>
But you were just getting warmed up!
>
>
>
> General thoughts ...
>
> Initially, I thought this was some sort of non-fiction reminiscence
> about poor manners in art museums. It took awhile before I realized
> the story was going to be about a relationship. If I was reading for
> pleasure, I doubt I would have made it past the first few paragraphs.
> I need a story to start with a hook and build from there. Endless
> description reminds me of fiction from days gone by and I doubt I will
> ever acquire a taste for writing that has the narrator describing all
> sorts of minutiae before giving me an idea of where the story is
> going.
>
For a story you disliked so much, I am impressed by your ability to
continue and take it apart piece by piece. Some people might get offended
by the lack of positives you had to add but me, I just accept that you
thought it was a pile of poo and I appreiciate your willingness to show me
step-by-step how much you hated it. There are some points where I feel like
you are slamming the story out of some sort of vindictive nature but hey, I
could just be defensive.
> The story is about two people having sex in an art gallery.
Wrong
>This is
> something I find interesting and the story could have been provocative
> and arousing. Forcing all the writing stuff into the story and trying
> to include a variety of comparative information about art, writing and
> sex resulted in a clumsy and very difficult to read mishmash. The sex
> scene was not very exciting for me for the reasons mentioned in the
> prior section. I wish the author had spent more time on the sex scene
> and less on trying to create a story about a writer in an art museum.
>
That is a good point. To me just talking about creativity is sexy. I'm
weird that way. I need a story code to reflect that :)
> I like a story that varies the pace and voice. In this case I felt
> like I was going down a long boring highway - da da, da da, da da, da
> da, ... - with the narrator saying, " ... and then this happened, and
> then this happened, and this happened ... " I wanted something to
> really happen, but it never did. The dialog did not remind me of real
> dialog.
Sadly, my wife and I talk that way.
>There was far too much description and not enough pictures. It
> was almost as if the author was telling the reader about a story he'd
> read instead of telling the story. I never felt tension or excitement
> even though the story provided ample opportunities for this to happen.
>
> I think a story should begin in action. I would have gotten right into
> something that started with
>
> My finger slid easily into her pussy. I was terrified. People were
> close by and we could've been caught at any time. No, it was not a
> typical Sunday morning at the art museum.
Interesting idea. And who says women want foreplay before penetration?
>
> This story did not open in action. Instead we have a confusing
> description from the narrator about being a writer who seems very
> young and yet has a strong taste for art since he attends the art
> museum on a regular basis. Even so, he can't convey his interest in
> art to the reader when he describes the viewing of a picture with
> words no art lover would use.
>
I didn't realize art lovers have a sanctioned vocabulary. That must
make me an art liker.
> The first very long part of the story does not contain sex and instead
> is a buildup for the concept of a writer in a story along with an
> attempt to include comparisons between writing and sex. None of this
> worked for me and could have been replaced with a few well crafted
> paragraphs. These would have come after a hook that let me know I was
> reading erotica.
>
> When we do get into the sex scene, there is no real tension. Having
> the older woman grab the narrator's hand and jam it down her pants
> should have been drawn out and described in far more detail that used
> here. Most readers like to know the details of how something exciting
> can happen and not just, "We were standing next to each other in an
> art museum and she jammed my hand down her loose jeans and her loose
> panties ... " The scene could have been so much more and yet it
> fizzled.
>
> I would say the author has an exceptional idea that he wasted in this
> story. I suspect he started with the concept of writing a story about
> a writer so he could post it here to start a discussion. A noble
> though, but all the discussion about the writer seems forced and
> contrived. The rest of the story suffers from neglect.
>
> I would like to see what the author could do with the idea of an older
> woman and a younger man in an art museum. How does she get him to give
> her a hand job? How does he feel about it? Does he resist at first?
> Does he lack experience? These are the important things in the story
> and the rest simply prevented them from being developed.
>
Thank for your long destruction of my story. I am sorry that it didn't
have enough sex for you. The idea of an older woman and a younger man doing
it in an art gallery doesn't appeal to me on its own.
You should stick around for the Fishtank that we have every Monday.
--
Head Warlock of the Coven of Bliss
Shon Richards
Adventure Stories of Mine and Others can be found at
http://www.asstr.org/~ShonRichards/
Romance Stories of mine are hosted by Gary at http://www.asstr.org/~gary/
There is fiction in the space between
You and reality
You will do and say anything
To make your everyday life
Seem less mundane
There is fiction in the space between
You and me
- Tracy Chapman
oosh
> For a story you disliked so much, I am impressed by your ability to
> continue and take it apart piece by piece.
Still, I envy you.
> Some people might get
> offended by the lack of positives you had to add but me, I just accept
> that you thought it was a pile of poo and I appreiciate your
> willingness to show me step-by-step how much you hated it.
Truly, not /how much/ but /why/. I envy you!
> That is a good point. To me just talking about creativity is sexy.
To be an erotic writer, you must write for /her/ - whoever she is. You and
I don't matter. She does.
> I'm
> weird that way. I need a story code to reflect that :)
But it's her you must think of.
> Sadly, my wife and I talk that way.
Record her and you. Listen to it. Write it down. Look at the words. If
you're like me, they will sicken you. But yes, you do sound like that.
Look at those lovely red claws. If you are a writer, you must kiss them,
and thank them for not being your own.
O.
Selena Jardine
very negative commentary on Shon's good new story (which had *better* be
continued...!). But it seemed to me that some of Rachael's comments
were simple misunderstandings of the text. For instance:
Rachael wrote:
> 'Early Sunday morning was the best time for me to visit the local art
> gallery. There were no crowds and I was free to stare at a painting
> for as long as I wanted without having to move out of the way for
> courtesy's sake. The few people who were there as early as me usually
> avoided the other patrons.'
>
> The above sentences taken together are either illogical or mix tenses
> incorrectly. The 'usually' in the last sentence indicates repetitive
> actions. If this is true, the entire section would appear to require
> present tense to indicate same. "Early Sunday morning is ... There are
> no crowds ... The few people who are there ... " Or, if this is really
> supposed to describe a one-off occurrence, 'usually' is out of place.
This is absolutely incorrect. Shon is using the imperfect tense, which
is a past tense. There is no mix of tenses at all and no logical
interruption in flow.
> 'As a writer, I appreciate the importance of an audience but as an
> audience, I prefer to enjoy other's creativity alone.'
>
> There were so many self-referential sentences in the story such as the
> above that I didn't get the idea that this was fiction until well into
> the work. There are times when telling people how a character feels is
> okay, but it should be done in a way that doesn't seem intrusive.
> Starting the sentence with "As a writer ... " is probably not the best
> way to introduce the reader to the main character's occupation. It
> came across to me like pontification instead of sharing.
Since this was posted in a stories forum, it ought to have been a hint
that it was fiction rather than an essay. Even if the reader did not
notice that he was reading something on alt.sex.stories.moderated,
however, the first paragraph does not begin as an essay would, but as a
story would. And in a first-person narrative, self-referentiality is
both unavoidable and desirable. How would you have phrased the
narrator's occupation so that it "felt like sharing"? (N.B.:
Constructive criticism is often more helpful than simply destructive
criticism.)
<snip>
> 'Writing was fun to me but I couldn't say it matched the heady
> excitement of sex, but then I thought about it. When I start a story,
> I get a feeling of excited terror that comes from praying that
> everything works out right. I knew I could write, and I knew I could
> be good, but I still had that lack of faith in myself that was similar
> to the stage-fright I felt when I was with a new lover.'
> The first sentence contains another example of mixing tenses. "Writing
> is fun ..." should be used to express a continuing feeling. If this is
> a one time thought, the reader needs more explanation. Writing in the
> first person is an attempt at story telling. I can't imagine a
> storyteller using a phrase like "... the heady excitement of sex ..."
> as he or she sat around the campfire shooting the breeze. It appears
> that the whole paragraph is included so the author can inject the
> comparison between sex and writing. This is very obvious and painful
> to read.
There is no example of mixed tenses in the paragraph you cite. And
since the entire story is about the rich comparisons that can be
instituted between visual art, writing and sex, it is impossible for the
paragraph to be included for the purpose of injecting such a comparison.
<snip>
> 'My fingers curled and pushed into her sex. It was warm inside and the
> clenching invited my fingers in. The degree of moisture surprised me.
> My fingers were soaked in an instant.'
>
> I suspect most women would prefer a straight finger to glide smoothly
> into her sex. I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel with someone trying
> to jam a curled one in there. I understand the author imagined how a
> person could give a hand job to someone who still has her panties on,
> but he didn't manage to convey this to me in the sentences quoted
> above. It might have been better to have the hand hold the woman's wet
> pussy as her finger slid into ... " which would be easier for me to
> see and provide a way to eliminate a lot of the hard to understand
> verbiage highlighted above.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of anatomy. Standing behind a
woman, cupping her pussy, straight fingers would be impossible.
<snip>
> The story is about two people having sex in an art gallery. This is
> something I find interesting and the story could have been provocative
> and arousing. Forcing all the writing stuff into the story and trying
> to include a variety of comparative information about art, writing and
> sex resulted in a clumsy and very difficult to read mishmash. The sex
> scene was not very exciting for me for the reasons mentioned in the
> prior section. I wish the author had spent more time on the sex scene
> and less on trying to create a story about a writer in an art museum.
Again, I think this is a simple misunderstanding of the text. Shon
Richards was writing a story about what happens when artists attack
their art: it's as good as sex. Why is it so satisfying? Why does it
have the same creative spark? Why do we call them creative... juices?
It was not a story about two people having sex in an art gallery, it was
about two artists in their milieu creating a new kind of art.
<snip>
I'm sorry if my response has seemed too critical. Please join us for
our FishTank discussions! Your close attention to detail would be most
valuable.
lisala
<rachae...@aussiemail.com.au> wrote:
> First, I'm interested in finding a writing group for writers of
> erotica. If anyone knows of one could they please post an address?
> Thank you.
You pretty much found it.
> Here are some thoughts for Shon and the story posted for review. The
> story is quoted with single quotes.
I started to respond to this, in detail, but I thought I'd wait and see
if there was any point.
I would like to make three comments though.
First, generally speaking, it's a good idea to find something positive
to say. If you honestly can't find anything positive, perhaps you
should reconsider your motivation for writing the review, and,
possibly, use email instead of a public forum. For instance, it's good
that you took the time, and effort, to write your "reviews" however
wrong-headedly I may feel you went about it.
Second, your real thesis is that you didn't like the story, and would
have preferred a "stroke" story rather than the medidative vignette you
got. That's fine--but why post a "review" (and I use the word
advisedly) when you just plain don't like the story? What value do you
offer? Your "details" are in fact too general to be of much use--when
they aren't downright inaccurate.
Thirdly, if you're going to critique someone's prose style and grammar,
you damn sure better know what you are doing.
Juding from the sample you posted, you don't.
Katherine T.
someone). Shon Richards evidently wrote and posted a story that by
some quirk of the gods came to be critiqued by an entity called
"Rachael", who has a penchant for sophomoric accusatory
deconstruction. I have not read the story. The critique is crap. And
although Rachael is welcome here (said by someone who is never around
the place much), the obligation of this group is to add to the welcome
a chastisement, a slap on the writing hand, a blow to the side of the
head. I can't do it. I'm already too fatigued just writing this. Thank
God the day is almost finished.
Katherine T.
On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:44:01 -0800, "celia batau"
<pinat...@bigplanet.com> wrote:
>hi Shon!
>
>we think maybe Rachel was sharing her thoughts on the
>story-she-would-have-liked-you-to-write instead of the
>story-you-actually-wrote huh? ;)
>
>-cb
>
>--
>celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
>
>I should have been a pair of ragged claws
>Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.
>-TS Eliot
>
>
>"Shon Richards" <shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:iQwj8.15202$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
Jacques LeBlanc
> First, I'm interested in finding a writing group for writers of
> erotica. If anyone knows of one could they please post an address?
> Thank you.
Try Mary Anne Mohanraj's EROS Workshop; information on participation
requirements and how to join may be found at this URL:
http://www.mamohanraj.com/Writing/eros.html
Best of Luck,
Jacques
Shon Richards
"oosh" <oo...@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:Xns91D0AA07B...@212.134.15.212...
> "Shon Richards" <shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:iQwj8.15202$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
>
> > For a story you disliked so much, I am impressed by your ability to
> > continue and take it apart piece by piece.
>
> Still, I envy you.
Yes, every bit of feedback is sacred.
>
> To be an erotic writer, you must write for /her/ - whoever she is. You and
> I don't matter. She does.
>
That's a neat submissive way of looking at it. You won't mind if I
blatantly steal it?
I totally agree that as writers, we must think of our readers. Would
you think less of me if a I perform for a specific "type" of reader?
>
> > Sadly, my wife and I talk that way.
>
> Record her and you. Listen to it. Write it down. Look at the words. If
> you're like me, they will sicken you. But yes, you do sound like that.
>
You must know us :) The most sickening thing we did together recently
involved a commercial for "the Time Machine" There is a scene where the
moon is cracked and I said "Lois, that looks like the moon from Thundarr the
Barbarian! Remember? Arial! Ukla!"
And Lois then finished it with "Ride!" then we both giggled and
realized we were beyong lame for remembering a quote from an 80's cartoon.
> Look at those lovely red claws. If you are a writer, you must kiss them,
> and thank them for not being your own.
>
> O.
>
Vinnie Tesla
>To be an erotic writer, you must write for /her/ - whoever she is. You and
>I don't matter. She does.
>
Unless I misunderstand you, I don't think I agree. The first duty of the
ambitious smut writer is to follow *her own* erotic muse.
Here, try a test: go to the Author Profiles section. Find one of the
numerous profiles that says something like
>Lance Suave
>I write tasteful, sensual tales of passion to please the delicate sensibilites
>of the feminine reader. Drawn from my own sophisticated experiences in
> the art of love, each tale is cunningly crafted to excite passion.
> Ladies, if you enjoy my little writings, do please contact me and we
> can chat. Or perhaps...more!
You want to go wash your hands already, don't you? Integrity comes from
writing what you think is sexy, not what you think someone else thinks
is sexy.
--
-Vinnie
vinnie...@yahoo.com
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
PJ Amberson
On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 05:32:47 GMT, and I quote:
>So now I understand this affair (to which I was kindly pointed to by
>someone). Shon Richards evidently wrote and posted a story that by
>some quirk of the gods came to be critiqued by an entity called
>"Rachael", who has a penchant for sophomoric accusatory
>deconstruction. I have not read the story. The critique is crap. And
>although Rachael is welcome here (said by someone who is never around
>the place much), the obligation of this group is to add to the welcome
>a chastisement, a slap on the writing hand, a blow to the side of the
>head. I can't do it. I'm already too fatigued just writing this. Thank
>God the day is almost finished.
>
It would have been a lot nicer if Rachael included some good points
instead of just indicating weaknesses in the story. I read the story and
agree to a great extent with her critique, but feel it would have been
far more productive for Shon and the rest of us if she had highlighted
some of the positives and spent a little time providing examples of how
the problems could be corrected instead of just a litany of negatives.
Her review is similar to what is found in some of the writing chat
groups in other places on the net. In those groups, the participants
focus on problem areas and don't cover positives to any great extent.
Supposedly they avoid cronism and ass kissing by focusing on areas of
improvement. Perhaps Rachael thought this was what was expected? I
suspect she didn't spend much time reading here before posting.
If we haven't run her off, she might learn how to be a productive
participant in the future given the outburst which is sure to follow
what she said. However, your comment that she has "a penchant for
sophomoric accusatory deconstruction" seems to indicate that you have a
penchant for sophomoric accusatory deconstruction as well. I also feel
it was unkind of you to enter the fray by mentioning you didn't care
enough to read the story before jumping in with your attempt at witty
sarcasm. You come across as pompous and mean spirited.
By the way, at the time I posted this note, the only review of the story
came from Rachael. I didn't like for the story and don't care to review
something I don't like. I'm sure that there are those who enjoyed the it
and I wonder when they will furnish a positive review so we can balance
the ledger?
---
PJ Amberson
<pjamb...@sanfranmail.com>
oosh
> That's a neat submissive way of looking at it. You won't mind if I
> blatantly steal it?
I'll make a present of it. Then you cannot steal it!
> I totally agree that as writers, we must think of our readers.
> Would
> you think less of me if a I perform for a specific "type" of reader?
How do you categorize readers?
>> > Sadly, my wife and I talk that way.
It's not really sad at all. I just find it amazing that what even the most
articulate people say can look pretty disjointed when it's presented as
prose. I think that written dialogue is a kind of compromise between the
real thing and well-constructed prose. For one thing, we repeat ourselves
much more in real life than would ever be acceptable in a piece of creative
writing. The writer has to create the illusion of reality.
O.
oosh
news:3c8f5f50...@news.speakeasy.net:
> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 01:01:22 GMT, quoth the oosh <oo...@gmx.NOSPAM.net>:
>
>>To be an erotic writer, you must write for /her/ - whoever she is. You
>>and I don't matter. She does.
>>
> Unless I misunderstand you, I don't think I agree. The first duty of
> the ambitious smut writer is to follow *her own* erotic muse.
It's just like good cooking. You have to prepare what you think your guests
will enjoy. It doesn't mean that you must dish up bland pap. I think
there's a difference between trying to please, on the one hand, and being
populist on the other. I quite accept the point you're making here, though.
> Here, try a test: go to the Author Profiles section. Find one of the
> numerous profiles that says something like
>
>>Lance Suave
>
>>I write tasteful, sensual tales of passion to please the delicate
>>sensibilites of the feminine reader. Drawn from my own sophisticated
>>experiences in
>> the art of love, each tale is cunningly crafted to excite passion.
>> Ladies, if you enjoy my little writings, do please contact me and we
>> can chat. Or perhaps...more!
> You want to go wash your hands already, don't you?
Not yet. I've got the floor and walls to do first!
O.
Jordan Shelbourne
Although Mary Anne's note gives the wrong address: since egroups
was taken over by Yahoo, it's at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/erosworkshop/
Because Yahoo is being extra fussy about adult material, I'm not
certain you can reach it through their own catalog of groups.
That address will work, though, if you have a yahoo account.
A moderator can add you even if you don't have a Yahoo account,
but you won't be able to get to the archives of messages.
Jordan (co-moderator)
Katherine T.
more likely opportunity. At the moment, I don't know who or what you
are, and that makes it difficult to respond.
Katherine T.
Jeff Zephyr
Hmm, supposing there is someone out there writing like that, what
makes you think that isn't what Lance thinks is sexy?
My profile resembles that one in no way whatsoever. Other than
accepting email (but not more!).
--
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
Jeff Zephyr
<shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"oosh" <oo...@gmx.NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns91D0AA07B...@212.134.15.212...
>> "Shon Richards" <shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>> news:iQwj8.15202$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
>>
>> > For a story you disliked so much, I am impressed by your ability to
>> > continue and take it apart piece by piece.
>>
>> Still, I envy you.
>
> Yes, every bit of feedback is sacred.
It is. Even the bad stuff can be inspirational (if not so happy).
Of course, sometimes critics are wrong about details, or make the
wrong conclusions, but it doesn't mean they didn't feel what they
said.
>> To be an erotic writer, you must write for /her/ - whoever she is. You and
>> I don't matter. She does.
>>
>
> That's a neat submissive way of looking at it. You won't mind if I
>blatantly steal it?
>
> I totally agree that as writers, we must think of our readers. Would
>you think less of me if a I perform for a specific "type" of reader?
I don't think so. I suspect we write for a reader with tastes like
our own in general. Maybe some of us can try to write for someone
else, but it gets tricky. I know that I may have someone in mind who
I hope will enjoy the story particularly (besides me), but the story
is still done mostly to express something I find interesting.
>> > Sadly, my wife and I talk that way.
>>
>> Record her and you. Listen to it. Write it down. Look at the words. If
>> you're like me, they will sicken you. But yes, you do sound like that.
>>
>
> You must know us :) The most sickening thing we did together recently
>involved a commercial for "the Time Machine" There is a scene where the
>moon is cracked and I said "Lois, that looks like the moon from Thundarr the
>Barbarian! Remember? Arial! Ukla!"
>
> And Lois then finished it with "Ride!" then we both giggled and
>realized we were beyong lame for remembering a quote from an 80's cartoon.
I think a lot of people talk like that. Maybe we shouldn't write
how people really talk, but make up some perfect conversation which
real people wouldn't have? I don't know.
Thundarr is *not* lame. Now, if you remembered the Thundercats!
"Ho!" quotes, that would be lame :-)
Oops...
>> Look at those lovely red claws. If you are a writer, you must kiss them,
>> and thank them for not being your own.
Always a good plan.
Vinnie Tesla
<jeff...@hotmail.com>:
> Thundarr is *not* lame. Now, if you remembered the Thundercats!
>"Ho!" quotes, that would be lame :-)
>
I think Elf does...
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/other/A_Night_On_Thundera.html
Vinnie Tesla
>> You want to go wash your hands already, don't you?
>
>Not yet. I've got the floor and walls to do first!
>
Now there, ladies and gentlemen, goes either a compulsive cleaner or a
projectile vomiter.
Or both, I suppose...
Shon Richards
"Vinnie Tesla" <vinnie...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c9007ee...@news.speakeasy.net...
LOL, Not only do we remember ThunderCats, but Lois once bitched for half
an hour about the uselessness of Snarf one long driving session. We used to
pass the time on drives by coming up with Cartoon Dream Teams. For example,
if you needed to save the world, which five Heroes would you pick? If you
wanted to destroy the world, which five villians, etc.
Getting back on topic, I always thought Cheetara should have been
seduced in a Atalanta kind of way. did I get that name right?
John McMullen
> First, generally speaking, it's a good idea to find something positive
> to say.
In any review or any critique, I think this is true. Oh, maybe not if
you're a paid reviewer and people buy the magazine to read you
savage things--there are such reviewers--but no one here falls into
that category.
Over in the Critters SF critting group, there is Maureen McHugh's four
steps to a useful critique, and I think they're worth bearing in mind.
Start with what you think the story is about; this is where the writer
can immediately discover that you wanted a stroke story and didn't
get one, or you think the writer is talking about our eternal struggle
against the tides of history, and the writer thinks it's a pretty
cool little fetish story involving time travelers and nazis.
Then something about how the story was effective, something about how
it wasn't effective, and last a suggestion for improvement.
In "The Fiction Editor, the Novel, and the Novelist," Thomas McCormack
talks about ideal readers--or rather, ideal editors--and he talks
about editors who expend all their energies trying to turn a hard-boiled
mystery novel into a tea-cozy mystery, or refining away all the parts
of a romp so that it can be Literature. Sometimes that's the wrong
thing to do, and as a reviewer/critiquer, I think it's useful to
be able to say, "This is not a piece I can work on. I can advise you
on some grammar, but I'm not an ideal reader for it."
One can see it in all genres, not just Litrachure or smut.
John
Gary Jordan
In summary, the Fish Tank Principle. (FTP)
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope."
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/Clitorides/
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/ShonRichards/
http://www.asstr.org/spotlight.html
http://www.storiesonline.net/
Michael Dalton
>In "The Fiction Editor, the Novel, and the Novelist," Thomas >McCormack talks
about ideal readers--or rather, ideal editors--and
>he talks about editors who expend all their energies trying to turn
>a hard-boiled mystery novel into a tea-cozy mystery, or refining
>away all the parts of a romp so that it can be Literature.
>Sometimes that's the wrong thing to do, and as a reviewer/critiquer,
>I think it's useful to be able to say, "This is not a piece I can work
>on. I can advise you on some grammar, but I'm not an ideal reader
>for it."
As a professional editor myself, I can reply that this is spot-on--except for
the "sometimes." It's not sometimes wrong, it's *always* wrong, for a whole
cavalcade of reasons, the most important of which is that It's Not the Editor's
Story. If the editor wants it to be something else, s/he should simply return
it to the author with his/her regrets. Most professional editors will, in fact,
do this, and I've done it myself a number of times.
The ideal editor is someone who helps the author be his or her best, to turn
the story (or non-fiction piece) into what it would be if the author did
everything he or she was trying to do flawlessly. The trick is to identify the
author's aim and align yourself with it. You have to make yourself into the
author's avatar and apply your editing skills through it. You're working *with*
the authors, not against them. If you find yourself in the latter situation,
something is wrong.
The same principle applies to reviewers. If you want the story to be something
else, it's best to just say so at the outset, instead of picking over all the
things you hated when what you really didn't like was the author's goals, not
his or her execution.
Michael
~Stories and More~
http://www.RuthiesClub.com
~confessions of a pop culture addict~
http://members.aol.com/michaeld38
PJ Amberson
>Dear PJ Amberson, whoever you are: Please save the insults to me for a
>more likely opportunity. At the moment, I don't know who or what you
>are, and that makes it difficult to respond.
>
>Katherine T.
>
Hmm, you had no trouble being rude to a person making her first post and
to Shon by not deigning to read his post before opening your mouth as
you indicate below. Do I detect a person who feels he or she requires
special treatment for some reason?
---
PJ Amberson
<pjamb...@sanfranmail.com>
Jeff Zephyr
<shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Vinnie Tesla" <vinnie...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:3c9007ee...@news.speakeasy.net...
>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:42:42 -0600, quoth the Jeff Zephyr
>> <jeff...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>> > Thundarr is *not* lame. Now, if you remembered the Thundercats!
>> >"Ho!" quotes, that would be lame :-)
>> >
>> I think Elf does...
>>
>> http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/other/A_Night_On_Thundera.html
>> --
Well, sure, some people will...
>>
>
> LOL, Not only do we remember ThunderCats, but Lois once bitched for half
>an hour about the uselessness of Snarf one long driving session. We used to
>pass the time on drives by coming up with Cartoon Dream Teams. For example,
>if you needed to save the world, which five Heroes would you pick? If you
>wanted to destroy the world, which five villians, etc.
All sorts of fun things that some people just don't get in their
conversations, for some odd reason :-)
> Getting back on topic, I always thought Cheetara should have been
>seduced in a Atalanta kind of way. did I get that name right?
Hmm, but who was going to race her? Hmm, there are interesting
story possibilities of course.
lisala
McMullen <jhmcm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> lisala <lis...@noucenewsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:<120320021745195411%lis...@noucenewsguy.com>...
>
> > First, generally speaking, it's a good idea to find something positive
> > to say.
>
> In any review or any critique, I think this is true. Oh, maybe not if
> you're a paid reviewer and people buy the magazine to read you
> savage things--there are such reviewers--but no one here falls into
> that category.
I think too it is useful to think of the objective of the commentary. A
review is a particular kind of writing, intended to assist a reader in
determining if the work being reviewed will appeal. The review is
written _for the potential reader/viewer/consumer.
Such a review is not really the place to show off one's own
expertise--though it is often used as a forum for such. Nor is a
review, properly speaking, the place to deal with specifics about
revision. There are certain courtesies expected of a reviewer--most
especially in professional publications which have published guidelines
about how to write a review--that generally include things like not
engaging in an overly detailed critique, and not spoiling the plot. You
may well come to the conclusion that you can't recommend the work to
other readers, but that can be conveyed without needlessly belaboring
the point. Personally, I'm not sure about "negative" reviews in a
context like usenet, where the content is enormous. It strikes me as
more useful to point out things that are good, that should be read,
even if they are not perhaps perfect.
A literary or artistic critique, unlike a review, does look at the
details, delves into issues of theme, and metaphor and style, and may
well indicate aspects that need more work. Such a critique is still
largely directed towards potential readers/viewers/consumers, but the
author/creator is very much considered as part of the audience. One
does not, therefore, in a public critique deal with overly specific
details, nor does one say, however cleverly put, "this sucks," because
the assumption of the critique writer and the reader is that the work
is still very much worth the time of both the critique writer, and the
potential consumer. There is little point in writing a detailed
critique, or in reading one, if the general thesis is that the work is
not worth reading. Such a critique annoys the creator, and the
potential readers, and is often a waste of time. It takes courage to
expose a creation to the public--that courage should be respected and
not needlessly shredded. (Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?)
An editorial critique is a different matter altogether. It is a private
piece, unless all concerned have agreed to make it public (the Fish
Tank is a very good example). It is a discussion of the specific
merits, flaws, possibilities and difficulties, solutions and felicities
of a work of art, written by one or more readers/viewers/critics to the
creator of the art. There is a special trust between the writer of an
editorial critique and the creator of the work. The creator knows she
or he can expose a newly fledged work to the critic/editor/proof
reader, and in return receive specific helpful comments and suggestions
about where and how to make it better. It is good to remember when
writing such a work that the feelings of a creator can be sensitive.
If, as an editor or reader, one feels that one can't find anything good
to say, or any suggestions to help the author or creator with the work
as the author has it, then one had best not meddle with forcible large
scale rewrites. Instead, tell the author that one is not the person to
ask for an opinion about the merits of the author's work. In other
words, don't rewrite the damn thing in your own image--it isn't yours
to rewrite. Look at a work as it is, as it could be, not as you would
like it to be.
Katherine T.
among us. Dear PJ Amberson: I did not need to read the Shon Richards
story to know the critique of it was nonsense. The critique was
irrational and picayune and overly deconstructive, which makes it bad
bad bad. The critique was first sent to me by Email as something to
make me laugh, but instead it irritated me because it's so patently
ridiculous. Shame on Rachael's teachers, whoever they are. I did not
read the Shon Richards story because his genre is of no interest to
me, and not because I've made a judgment about his writing one way or
the other. You have jumped in here to defend the critique when it
seems indefensible. Why? What are you and where is your writing? Can
you point me to something you've written so that I can read it and
have a glimpse of what you are?
Katherine T.
http://www.asstr.org/~Katherine_T
kt1...@earthlink.net
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:51:23 GMT, PJ Amberson
den...@tanstaafl.zipcon.net
>Hmm, you had no trouble being rude to a person making her first post
<Katherine T's comments>:
>>>>So now I understand this affair (to which I was kindly pointed to by
>>>>someone). Shon Richards evidently wrote and posted a story that by
>>>>some quirk of the gods came to be critiqued by an entity called
>>>>"Rachael", who has a penchant for sophomoric accusatory
>>>>deconstruction. I have not read the story. The critique is crap.
I guess PJ considers Katherine rude for the description of Rachael's
critique as 'crap' and 'sophomoric accusatory deconstruction'--both
struck me as fairly accurate assessments.
>and
>to Shon by not deigning to read his post before opening your mouth as
>you indicate below.
<above, in this case>:
Katherine states "I have not read the story." -- how is this rude to
Shon? Pray explain. Katherine makes no evaluation of Shon's story:
had she done so, without reading it, that might be rude (I can think
of more accurate characterizations than 'rude' for such, though). She
states only 'I have not read the story'--perhaps that disappoints
Shon, but I don't see how it's rude.
Oh. I guess I better be rude too: I, also, have not read the story.
To continue: others have remarked on Rachael's "Initially, I thought
this was some sort of non-fiction reminiscence about poor manners in
art museums." But I must also chime in: the story was in a sex-story
group--who would expect to find 'non-fiction reminiscing' in such?
--
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
Starhawk
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:55:15 GMT, "Shon Richards"
> <shonric...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > LOL, Not only do we remember ThunderCats, but Lois once bitched for half
> >an hour about the uselessness of Snarf one long driving session. We used to
> >pass the time on drives by coming up with Cartoon Dream Teams. For example,
> >if you needed to save the world, which five Heroes would you pick? If you
> >wanted to destroy the world, which five villians, etc.
>
> All sorts of fun things that some people just don't get in their
> conversations, for some odd reason :-)
>
> > Getting back on topic, I always thought Cheetara should have been
> >seduced in a Atalanta kind of way. did I get that name right?
>
> Hmm, but who was going to race her? Hmm, there are interesting
> story possibilities of course.
Bart Allen would race her; 'course, he wouldn't know what to do once he had
won... <g>