The Problem with Subs
aka...@netcom.com
I wanted to share with you my biggest problem with my dominance:
I am not attracted to submissive men.
I should re-phrase that. I am not attracted to men that are submissive
when they approach me. What happens to them after my wrath, however, is
debatable (heh).
I'm approaching all of this with humor, but it really is an issue that
baffles me. And I honestly don't know how many other doms feel this way.
It seems like it is a basic flaw in my mentality about BDSM...I mean, how
can I have a good relationship with a sub if submissiveness doesn't
attract me?
But see..that's the point. Submissiveness does NOT attract me. But
making a man submit to me DOES. Perhaps the point is that *I* like to
feel responsibile for his submission. I like to conquer, to defeat, to
dimish, to control.
I like to *tame*. I like to take a rebel and turn him into a puppy. I
like to take a self confident brat and have him at my feet within hours.
*THIS* is what draws me to S&M.
Perhaps this is another reason I have always played with vanilla men
primarily. Because of the challenge. But I am at a point in my life now
where the disadvantages of playing with vanilla men outweigh the "rush"
of breaking them down. I simply cannot ask someone with no interest in
the scene to play the games that I want to anymore.
That's not to say I take completely unwilling men and do things to them
against their will -- this is far from the truth. But I ...persuade
them...to do things that they would otherwise not. And that's where I
get the rush, making a man submit to something that goes against his
nature, against his will. But he does so out of passion, pride, fear,
and perhaps momentary delirium (heh, a line I have heard more than once
from an unsuspecting sub, "How did I get myself into this?").
So I run into a roadblock when I know my subject is *wanting* what I am
doing. I know this probably makes me sound like a sadomasochistic
mutant. But maybe I am. Am I a true sadist for wanting my torment to be
truly that -- torment?
But there is that paradox, because so often submissive men are not
submissive -- they simply crave the feeling they get from relinquishing
power, even though it goes against their grain. And I think there are
more subs like this than let on, but they choose to express their
*submissive* side to doms rather than their *empowered* side, because
perhaps they feel as doms we like to see the submissive side. ( I cant
speculate, I'm not a sub..but why do so many subs choose to express their
completely submissive side?)
Now is it just me...or is this just not true? As a dom, I am more
interested in the strength, the will, the pride of my potential partner
-- *not* his submissive side. I don't doubt that he can be a good
submissive, that he can beg, that he can whimper and be at my beck and
call -- this is what I want to *create* in him, to make him express, not
what I want to see right off...
Does this make sense to anyone?
If I walked into a room, and the only thing I knew was that all the men
there were submissives in various degrees...I would walk past all the
ones that were kneeling, that were worshipping the feet of strangers. I
would walk past the ones that lowered their head in my presence. I would
walk up to the one that stands against the wall with his head high,
looking me in the eye, and meeting my conversation with equal wit and
deliberation. I want to peel away his shell and find that submissive
side myself. I want to drag it out of him, kicking and screaming if it
has to be. Yes, I do want him at my feet. I do want to tie him down,
and tease him, and humiliate him. But I don't want him to lay it all
out to me on a platter and spoon feed it to me. I want to work for it.
I want to bend his pride, not break it.
I have often talked about this on #femdom, and some men have understood,
but others have taken it too seriously, and bent it back all the way in
the other direction -- thinking what I want is an arrogant, obnoxious
brat, the "You couldn't top me if you tried, bitch" syndrome. This is
DEFINITELY not what I want either. There is something between complete
submission and total arrogance. It's a perfect mixture of pride, fear,
passion, strength, and self-assuredness.
If I could give any advice to aspiring subs, whether it be useless or
invaluable, it would be to remember that a dom is more interested in you,
not your submissiveness. Because a good dom knows she will get that
eventually (hehe, grin).
But before I act so bold to give that advice -- I would like to know from
doms, am I the only one that thinks this way? It just might be that I'm
sort of a weird one, and that unconditional submission, from the start,
is the way to a dom's heart.
I just know that is not what works for me.
rla...@name1.ak.net
>I wanted to share with you my biggest problem with my dominance:
>
>I am not attracted to submissive men.
>
>I should re-phrase that. I am not attracted to men that are submissive
>when they approach me. What happens to them after my wrath, however, is
>debatable (heh).
Also, at the end of her post she asks for comment from doms; because maybe
90% of me doesn't qualify, I'll offer only a general comment to the part of
her post I've quoted.
IMO, we tend to view most of those to whom we are attracted as 'whole'
people. A co-dependent personality could be attractive to someone with hir
own 'control' hangups, but to my mind akasha has always come across on the
net as perfectly normal and healthy. (Not expressing an opinion on anyone's
personal sexual preferences here, I mean the underlying person.) I'll limit
the opinion/ observation to those of us who think we are healthy also.
Whether one has a D or s preference is, I think, irrelevant to the issue.
If the question one asks oneself is 'Do I think I might enjoy a
relationship (temporary, permanent or anywhere in between) with this
person', then I think an affirmative conclusion would rest in part on one's
belief that the prospective new partner has some qualities that may either
complement or contrast one's own, but that in any event we find attractive.
So, that prospective partner has some substance, has hir own interests, is
happy with who sie is, etc. That prospective partner is not a wimp.
akasha wonders if there may be a basic flaw in her mentality about BDSM. I
don't see it myself. Who wants to interact with a bowl of Jello? (apologies
to those who like Jello as a part of their scenes :-))
For that matter, from the sub's perspective, who wants to interact with
somebody who merely dresses a certain way, gets the whip out and beats the
shit out of you? Even if that's your fantasy, I think to make it work for
you, you have to at the least imagine that your partner has other qualities
that make hir a person, even if it should be nothing more than raw sexual
attraction that you can't act on (because, say, you are tied up at the
moment).
From her writing, seems to me akasha likes the thrill of conquest to
front-end her enjoyment with her partner, and even that enjoyment itself is
heightened if he struggles with her dominance all the way to orgasm. Other
doms' enjoyment may, for example, focus more particularly on the power they
wield as their sub is totally 'under' in that wonderful sub space of
adoration for hir Master/Mistress. The variations are many, but
fundamentally it's all consensual, isn't it? So, for me anyway, not only is
there nothing 'wrong', we are just going about what is natural and
pleasurable to each of us.
A thought floating around one of the other threads recently has been to the
effect of 'you can't give what you don't have.' I for one agree totally
with that. akasha is turned on by his suggestion, 'I have it. But damned
if I'm going to surrender it to you.' In fact, only when she senses that
message does she say to herself 'Oh yeah? You may not know it yet, but have
I got news for you, bud...'
Isn't life wonderful?
Just my opinion...
Farnorth
Janet W. Hardy
: I am not attracted to submissive men.
There is a *big* difference between an erotically submissive man, who
enjoys consensually acting out the relinquishing of power, and a man who
acts submissive in real life.
The first can be very, very hot. The second leaves me bone-dry and ready
to do something else -- say, sort my socks.
I get letters from men proudly proclaiming "I am a wimp." Is this
supposed to make me want to play with them????
You can't give away power unless you've got it to start with.
Lady Green
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"Ecstasy: A state of | Greenery Press: publishers of "The Sexually
being beyond reason and | Dominant Woman" and "The Bottoming Book"
self-control" | For catalog, e-mail ver...@crl.com or SASE
-- Webster's | to 3739 Balboa #195, San Francisco, CA 94121
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Mattison
[ much stuff is deleted, hopefully the context is preserved ]
>I am not attracted to submissive men. . . . I should re-phrase that.
>I am not attracted to men that are submissive when they approach
>me. . . . It seems like it is a basic flaw in my mentality about
>BDSM
I think it is less a flaw in you attitude towards bdsm as it is a
problem of your sample of submissive men. Trying not to assume to
much, but from reading this as well as other of your posts, it
is my assumption that you haven't meet that many submissive in 'real
life' (tm). As such you have a few stereotypes which though more
accurate than many stereotypes are far from universal. For instance.
>If I walked into a room, and the only thing I knew was that all the men
>there were submissives in various degrees...I would walk past all the
>ones that were kneeling, that were worshipping the feet of strangers.
Now this sounds a little like you might have gone to a couple bdsm
clubs in NYC. And while I go to such clubs myself occasionally, it is
for the equipment and the company of people I'm with, not the
atmosphere of the places. The point being that while sub men who
wander about asking random women 'may I worship your feet Mistress' do
certainly exist, not all sub men behave this way.
Not only do I not grovel at the feet of dominate woman I don't know I
don't grovel at the feet of most dominate woman I do know. While I
could be called prudish by scene standards. I'm by no means unique
among sub men in having some self-respect and being at least a little
selective in who I bottom or submit to. If it wasn't bad
net.etiquette, I'd provide a long list of names of similar sub
men to prove the point.
>As a dom, I am more interested in the strength, the will, the pride
>of my potential partner -- *not* his submissive side.
One of the lesser reasons I don't particularly like personals, is that
the all to common 'all do anything for any woman' ads provide a rather
squewed sample of sub men. Many of us similar to yourself are
primarily interested in the personalities of who we are involved with.
Submission and dominance is how we like to express ourselves, our
feelings, and our sexuality, it is not the reasons for our attractions.
>I like to *tame*. I like to take a rebel and turn him into a puppy. I
>like to take a self confident brat and have him at my feet within hours.
>*THIS* is what draws me to S&M.
Now while this is not my kink, (when I submit I submit, I don't play at
being a rebellious brat), I'm fairly certain there are more an a few sub
men who are into this kind of thing. Some may like it as roleplay,
others as dominance being asserted.
>So I run into a roadblock when I know my subject is *wanting* what I am
>doing. I know this probably makes me sound like a sadomasochistic
>mutant. But maybe I am. Am I a true sadist for wanting my torment to be
>truly that -- torment?
Now I'm not certain if I understand this correctly or not, but I think
again this may be a problem with lack of 'real life' experience with
submissives and masochists. I may say I like pain and I definitely do
get something very positive from the experience. However, in a heavy
scene, when I yelp, scream, or sob it isn't an act. It is a reaction
to real pain, pain that really hurts.
My torment in such a situation is quite serious. And the 'enjoyment'
I get from such heavy scenes isn't from the sensations. It is from
where the sensations take me. And part of why I it takes me where it
takes me is that I'm not doing it merely for me, but also for my top.
I wish to give her pleasure thru my pain. To suffer for her enjoyment
and amusement. To me this is a major turn on. And I must say I'm far
from alone among sub men in this respect.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
+ Mattison 'Matt' Narramore matt...@cnj.digex.net +
+ http://wilson.evolution.com/mattison +
+ +
+ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with +
+ themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. +
+ -- Susan Ertz +
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawless
: I wanted to share with you my biggest problem with my dominance:
:
: I am not attracted to submissive men.
:
: [ Much good writing deleted ]
:
: But see..that's the point. Submissiveness does NOT attract me. But
:
Somehow, I don't think too many people, male or female, dom/sub, are in fact
attracted to submissive types. With the exception of the Femina Society, of
course. ;) After all, when you see someone who is portraying hirself as an
abject lowly worm, the general reaction is to *think* of them as a worm.
Anyone here attracted to worms? Even with the Femina Society, it doesn't
seem as though the 'Mistresses' there are attracted, per se. Instead they
wind up taking the sub and using them as a slave, for housework and as a
target for humiliation and punishment. Not often as an object as desire.
Someone who is completely submissive is, as Akasha mentioned, jello. They
have very little to offer in terms of conversation or company - but it seems
to me that they make a *wonderful* combination footstool/cleaning device/
whipping post. Now if you want a household servant who will pay *you* for
their services.... <shrug>
Admittedly I'm not writing this from the viewpoint of a dom; I am instead
a sardonic, irreverent male wolf who happens to submit to various women. I
tend not to go into a 'submissive' mode, as my sense of humor is always
sprinting along - while handcuffed to a pole in a nightclub, I once went
from calling my Lady a 'Dark Winged Angel' to 'Dark Winged Duck'. She
was not unfamiliar with the comic and was amused by the joke, but I still
paid for my transgression. (Well, she *asked* why I'd started laughing!)
Anyways, Akasha, I tend not to see your problem as being such. And btw,
I've very much enjoyed your writings ;)
-- Lawless : finds it difficult being serious while scening in a vanilla set
-- (law...@netcom.com / ch...@novalink.com)
--
-- Some angels never had that far to fall....
Sub brio
:I am not attracted to submissive men.
One of those paradoxical questions about my own submissiveness.
While I am quite aggressive in my occupation--showing any sign of weakness
and lack of complete confidence in my work would encourages the sharks
that I deal with to go in for the kill--I am also quite confident in
submitting to a woman. And though I don't like to display an overt
rebellious demeanor, when I think about it, I am looking to be "conquered"
by a Mistress. I couldn't imagine submitting to just anyone, the person
which I allow to take control of me, and I am quite willing to relenquish
a great amount of myself to her, must be competent and attractive in many
more ways than simply a "whip-wielding" object which some men view as a
Mistress.
But I don't like a lot of faux aggressiveness I see in male behavior, I
can play the game when necessary, but it's not my style. I might be
somewhat "soft" in my manner towards a dominant female, but I am by no
means a pushover and in reality, probably much more difficult to "possess"
than either a "wimpy" sub or a outwardly rebellious one.
Why do I have to be so complicated?
Brio
aka...@netcom.com
>
>I think it is less a flaw in you attitude towards bdsm as it is a
>problem of your sample of submissive men. Trying not to assume to
>much, but from reading this as well as other of your posts, it
>is my assumption that you haven't meet that many submissive in 'real
>life' (tm). As such you have a few stereotypes which though more
>accurate than many stereotypes are far from universal. For instance.
Good point Mattison...and you are completely right. My real life play
experience with submissive men or men with real submissive tendencies is
close to zero. So I thought about this -- and I realized what I based my
assumptions on -- submissive men I have met on irc, and the way
submissive men are portrayed in femdom stories.
On irc, I get about 10x the number of submissive strangers approaching me
and telling me so humbly that they will do anything I say, or want to
serve me, or want me to dominate them -- after knowing nothing about
them. What fun is that? Are these submissive men different from real
life submissive men? And why so many? Is this just a net phenonmenon?
(sp, sorry, no dictionary handy).
And femdom stories..so many written by men of course -- the femdom comes
in, whip blazing, all decked out in her heels, and the man falls to her
feet and it puty in her hands at once. I figured this is the male
fantasy. I see close to no resistance in *any* femdom stories I
read...and from the ones I post, you will all see that much of my focus
is on the struggle for power, not what the dom does with the power once
she has it.
So are these stories false as well? Why then the emphasis on such
dramatic submission when the dom in the story has not broken down the
slave? Perhaps I have not read enough femdom stories..but that's the
impression I get as I browse through most of them. Which is why I don't
read them closely anymore, they don't do anything for me at all.
>
>Now this sounds a little like you might have gone to a couple bdsm
>clubs in NYC. And while I go to such clubs myself occasionally, it is
>for the equipment and the company of people I'm with, not the
>atmosphere of the places. The point being that while sub men who
>wander about asking random women 'may I worship your feet Mistress' do
>certainly exist, not all sub men behave this way.
Never been to a bdsm club or play party even yet...so I can't say. Like
I said, most of what I based my assumption on was the way submissive men
behaved toward me on the net and how I read into femdom literature. I'm
starting to feel hope, tho, that I was wrong..which is a great relief.
>
>Now while this is not my kink, (when I submit I submit, I don't play at
>being a rebellious brat), I'm fairly certain there are more an a few sub
>men who are into this kind of thing. Some may like it as roleplay,
>others as dominance being asserted.
I have thought about this more, and really thought back to scenes I have
enjoyed a lot..and I think I may have played up the resistance thing a bit
too heavy in my writings. Yes, I do *love* resistance. But what I
primarily want is *reaction* -- any reaction *except* for a sub rolling
over and playing dead...like the stories I have read so often -- the sub
sits there and takes it, willingly, eagerly, "yes mistress, no mistress"
with no hesitation, no fear, no shaking. Maybe it's just that a lot of
the stores I have read do not emphasize the sensual things I thrive on in
a scene -- the way my sub breathes, how his eyes look, how he shifts his
wrists in the bonds or stifles a whimper when I pull his hair. These
things are definitely not *resistance*, they are *reaction*. But I do
always love some element of fighting back, of holding onto pride, always
underlying what I am doing.
>
>>So I run into a roadblock when I know my subject is *wanting* what I am
>>doing. I know this probably makes me sound like a sadomasochistic
>>mutant. But maybe I am. Am I a true sadist for wanting my torment to be
>>truly that -- torment?
>
>Now I'm not certain if I understand this correctly or not, but I think
>again this may be a problem with lack of 'real life' experience with
>submissives and masochists. I may say I like pain and I definitely do
>get something very positive from the experience. However, in a heavy
>scene, when I yelp, scream, or sob it isn't an act. It is a reaction
>to real pain, pain that really hurts.
>
You're right. I think I have been a bit brainwashed in the past by
limited experience with subs. ANd I have to add, the second half of
that paragraph really got to me....uhm..in a very *good* way to so
speak. Damn, what is it about a man suffering that thrills me so much
>My torment in such a situation is quite serious. And the 'enjoyment'
>I get from such heavy scenes isn't from the sensations. It is from
>where the sensations take me. And part of why I it takes me where it
>takes me is that I'm not doing it merely for me, but also for my top.
>I wish to give her pleasure thru my pain. To suffer for her enjoyment
>and amusement. To me this is a major turn on. And I must say I'm far
>from alone among sub men in this respect.
>
Well then..stand up, let yourselves be counted! I am ready to reconsider
my position on sub men!
(hehe..it's late, I'm delirious). Thanks for the great insight, Mattison.
Internet Maine
:
: I am not attracted to submissive men.
akasha, of course you aren't. Just like gay men don't like fairies,
lesbians don't like dykes. We all want what we can't have
: I'm approaching all of this with humor, but it really is an issue that
: baffles me. And I honestly don't know how many other doms feel this way.
: It seems like it is a basic flaw in my mentality about BDSM...I mean, how
: can I have a good relationship with a sub if submissiveness doesn't
: attract me?
You can't. When we get what we want, often we no longer want it.
:
: But see..that's the point. Submissiveness does NOT attract me. But
: making a man submit to me DOES. Perhaps the point is that *I* like to
: feel responsibile for his submission. I like to conquer, to defeat, to
: dimish, to control.
Isn't this the truest definition of domination? Surely it's not
shoving a dildo up some guys ass who is begging for it. That, is in
fact, being controlled by him - A submissive which makes it even worse
for you.
:
: That's not to say I take completely unwilling men and do things to them
: against their will -- this is far from the truth. But I ...persuade
: them...to do things that they would otherwise not. And that's where I
: get the rush, making a man submit to something that goes against his
: nature, against his will. But he does so out of passion, pride, fear,
: and perhaps momentary delirium (heh, a line I have heard more than once
: from an unsuspecting sub, "How did I get myself into this?").
:
Sure, but consider this. How many of these men were really unsuspecting.
: So I run into a roadblock when I know my subject is *wanting* what I am
: doing. I know this probably makes me sound like a sadomasochistic
: mutant. But maybe I am. Am I a true sadist for wanting my torment to be
: truly that -- torment?
:
Of course not. You couldn't be truly Dom if you didn't hate the reality
of living in a negotiated society. But we do.
: But there is that paradox, because so often submissive men are not
: submissive -- they simply crave the feeling they get from relinquishing
: power, even though it goes against their grain. And I think there are
: more subs like this than let on, but they choose to express their
: *submissive* side to doms rather than their *empowered* side, because
: perhaps they feel as doms we like to see the submissive side. ( I cant
: speculate, I'm not a sub..but why do so many subs choose to express their
: completely submissive side?)
:
Who knows.
: Now is it just me...or is this just not true? As a dom, I am more
: interested in the strength, the will, the pride of my potential partner
: -- *not* his submissive side. I don't doubt that he can be a good
: submissive, that he can beg, that he can whimper and be at my beck and
: call -- this is what I want to *create* in him, to make him express, not
: what I want to see right off...
:
Why is this strange to you. It is the heart of control. To simply
realize a sub's desires is less Dominance and more role playing (operative
word playing)
: Does this make sense to anyone?
Sure. I've seen you a hundred time. You always approach me, because I
reject you. Not cruely, nor abusively. But I'm what you can't have.
I exist out side of your ability to get what you want out of me.
: If I walked into a room, and the only thing I knew was that all the men
: there were submissives in various degrees...I would walk past all the
: ones that were kneeling, that were worshipping the feet of strangers. I
: would walk past the ones that lowered their head in my presence. I would
: walk up to the one that stands against the wall with his head high,
: looking me in the eye, and meeting my conversation with equal wit and
: deliberation. I want to peel away his shell and find that submissive
: side myself. I want to drag it out of him, kicking and screaming if it
: has to be. Yes, I do want him at my feet. I do want to tie him down,
: and tease him, and humiliate him. But I don't want him to lay it all
: out to me on a platter and spoon feed it to me. I want to work for it.
: I want to bend his pride, not break it.
The Paradox. You want it, but you resent those that can give it to you.
You need to take it from those that won't let you. Danger, akasha, you
want the danger of meeting not a milquetoast, but a Man.
One who may undo you as you strive to undo him.
This is the definition of a dysfunctional relationship,
but it is the type that will have the highest highs to
offset the terrible lows.
: I have often talked about this on #femdom, and some men have understood,
: but others have taken it too seriously, and bent it back all the way in
: the other direction -- thinking what I want is an arrogant, obnoxious
: brat, the "You couldn't top me if you tried, bitch" syndrome. This is
: DEFINITELY not what I want either. There is something between complete
: submission and total arrogance. It's a perfect mixture of pride, fear,
: passion, strength, and self-assuredness.
:
A real Man will understand. My masculinity has nothing to do with
another's submissiveness or your need to top. I am unthreatened by you,
or my own desires. I can even appreciate your desires. And feel a
little bad for you. Just like the pathetic subs throwing their puny
pleas to any Mistress willing to have them you are unlikely to get what
you want either. I don't mean that as arrogant as it sounds. I mean
it as a comparison. Different ends of the spectrum, but both with the
same void. Why is it, what we want is often denied us?
: If I could give any advice to aspiring subs, whether it be useless or
: invaluable, it would be to remember that a dom is more interested in you,
: not your submissiveness. Because a good dom knows she will get that
: eventually (hehe, grin).
:
You may get the submission but it won't make you happy. Once
they submit you never see them the same do you? Their very submission
will create a void that aches to be filled. So you'll move on to the
next, seeking the thrill of real control.
: But before I act so bold to give that advice -- I would like to know from
: doms, am I the only one that thinks this way? It just might be that I'm
: sort of a weird one, and that unconditional submission, from the start,
: is the way to a dom's heart.
You're in the majority, even if others lack the words, or guts to say it.
To others, I apologize for the repost of the entire message but It
interested me and I wanted to reply to all of you instead of just akasha
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| when life looks like easy street
br...@mainelink.net | there is danger at your door
(aka o...@mainelink.net) | - The Grateful Dead
http://www.mainelink.net/~brent
------------------------Oh Hell It's Six Lines----------------------------
Dave O'Shea
: In article <mattison.795680622@cnj>, Mattison <matt...@cnj.digex.net> wrote:
: >
: >I think it is less a flaw in you attitude towards bdsm as it is a
: >problem of your sample of submissive men. Trying not to assume to
: >much, but from reading this as well as other of your posts, it
: >is my assumption that you haven't meet that many submissive in 'real
: >life' (tm). As such you have a few stereotypes which though more
: >accurate than many stereotypes are far from universal. For instance.
: Good point Mattison...and you are completely right. My real life play
: experience with submissive men or men with real submissive tendencies is
: close to zero. So I thought about this -- and I realized what I based my
: assumptions on -- submissive men I have met on irc, and the way
: submissive men are portrayed in femdom stories.
:
: On irc, I get about 10x the number of submissive strangers approaching me
: and telling me so humbly that they will do anything I say, or want to
: serve me, or want me to dominate them -- after knowing nothing about
: them. What fun is that? Are these submissive men different from real
: life submissive men? And why so many? Is this just a net phenonmenon?
I suspect it's not unique to the net. The couple of times my wife and I
went to the SM clubs in NYC, the number of wandering weenie whackers was
just too high. These are just guys looking for a fast lay/whip/whatever.
: (sp, sorry, no dictionary handy).
:
: And femdom stories..so many written by men of course -- the femdom comes
: in, whip blazing, all decked out in her heels, and the man falls to her
: feet and it puty in her hands at once. I figured this is the male
: fantasy. I see close to no resistance in *any* femdom stories I
: read...and from the ones I post, you will all see that much of my focus
: is on the struggle for power, not what the dom does with the power once
: she has it.
A lot of it is just plain 'ol poor writing style. One-handed reading
material does not place high value on character development, subtle plot
changes, and realism.
I can't say for sure if it's "the male fantasy". I do know that while the
idea of a leather goddess shouting "Kneel, you worm!" may at least catch
my eye, it would not be the basis of a good relationship.
Fantasy is different from real life; just as if Arnold Schwartzneger
actually tried half the silly stuff in his movies, he'd get blown to
bits, sometimes when I get home from work, I don't need to be cowering in
front of my wife - I need a few minutes to play with our son and lie down
before we eat. Personally, I find our sex life to be thrilling, and there
are elements of resistance to it (especially when I sneak up behind her
with some rope), but an evening at the O'Shea household would not get top
billing in a.s.s
(Strike that; given Ugol's law, *somebody* would get off on it.)
: So are these stories false as well? Why then the emphasis on such
: dramatic submission when the dom in the story has not broken down the
: slave? Perhaps I have not read enough femdom stories..but that's the
: impression I get as I browse through most of them. Which is why I don't
: read them closely anymore, they don't do anything for me at all.
Most of 'em are crap. Occasionally, one comes through that catches my
eye. Anything by Bill Lemieux gets downloaded and printed without a
second glance.
Some good indicators: If the story contains the word "mistress", or more
than two exclamation points in the first paragraph, hit the "n" key.
: >Now this sounds a little like you might have gone to a couple bdsm
: >clubs in NYC. And while I go to such clubs myself occasionally, it is
: >for the equipment and the company of people I'm with, not the
: >atmosphere of the places. The point being that while sub men who
: >wander about asking random women 'may I worship your feet Mistress' do
: >certainly exist, not all sub men behave this way.
: Never been to a bdsm club or play party even yet...so I can't say. Like
: I said, most of what I based my assumption on was the way submissive men
: behaved toward me on the net and how I read into femdom literature. I'm
: starting to feel hope, tho, that I was wrong..which is a great relief.
I don't think it's specifically submissive men. This behavior (though it
pains me to admit it) is something that is common to probably 10% of the
male population. Since the remaining 90% either conducts normal
conversation or simply lurks, they don't tend to get noticed.
: >
: >>So I run into a roadblock when I know my subject is *wanting* what I am
: >>doing. I know this probably makes me sound like a sadomasochistic
: >>mutant. But maybe I am. Am I a true sadist for wanting my torment to be
: >>truly that -- torment?
: >
: >Now I'm not certain if I understand this correctly or not, but I think
: >again this may be a problem with lack of 'real life' experience with
: >submissives and masochists. I may say I like pain and I definitely do
: >get something very positive from the experience. However, in a heavy
: >scene, when I yelp, scream, or sob it isn't an act. It is a reaction
: >to real pain, pain that really hurts.
I can toss in my two cents here; part of a good D/s scene (for me) is
giving up control - allowing someone else to do things to you whether you
like them or not - and having no ability to stop things once they have
gotten started (Oy, I just *know* Ev*n St*ven is waiting to pounce on
this one!)
We tend to look at SM as a rollercoaster. I know (roughly) what I'm
getting into when we start a scene. I know that at some point, I may wish
to stop things - and I know that they probably will not stop.
Fear and pain, and not being able to think about anything further away
than what is happening to you at that very second are big attractions.
For someone who has difficulty in "partitioning" their mind (i.e. being
able to stop thinking about work or some other matter) pain can be a
great thing. :-)
: You're right. I think I have been a bit brainwashed in the past by
: limited experience with subs. ANd I have to add, the second half of
: that paragraph really got to me....uhm..in a very *good* way to so
: speak. Damn, what is it about a man suffering that thrills me so much
I'm not a sadist, but it is probably something along the feeling that I
get when racing; the knowledge that you're doing something that could be
dangerous if you lost control of it (i.e. if you forgot to buckle that
left wrist tight enough!)
Dennis Yelle
>
>I have thought about this more, and really thought back to scenes I have
>enjoyed a lot..and I think I may have played up the resistance thing a bit
>too heavy in my writings. Yes, I do *love* resistance. But what I
>primarily want is *reaction* -- any reaction *except* for a sub rolling
>over and playing dead...like the stories I have read so often -- the sub
>sits there and takes it, willingly, eagerly, "yes mistress, no mistress"
>with no hesitation, no fear, no shaking. Maybe it's just that a lot of
>the stores I have read do not emphasize the sensual things I thrive on in
>a scene -- the way my sub breathes, how his eyes look, how he shifts his
>wrists in the bonds or stifles a whimper when I pull his hair. These
>things are definitely not *resistance*, they are *reaction*. But I do
>always love some element of fighting back, of holding onto pride, always
>underlying what I am doing.
YES, YES. I think this captures the best part really well.
And the sub can feel real fear, because he is not *sure* that
the dom will not go too far this time. Especially with akasha. :)
--
den...@netcom.com (Dennis Yelle)
"It's a small mind that can think of only one way to spell a word." -- M. Twain
Ms. Margo
: I am not attracted to submissive men.
:
: But before I act so bold to give that advice -- I would like to know from
: doms, am I the only one that thinks this way? It just might be that I'm
: sort of a weird one, and that unconditional submission, from the start,
: is the way to a dom's heart.
My definiton of a perfect submissive is someone who is my equal, or even
my better. They are intellegant, educated, and worldly. They are able
to think cleverly and care for themselves in an often harsh world,
*but* they choose to defer to me.
I have been luck enough to find that submissive, and no, he did not
grovel and scrape when we met. It takes time to find the really good
ones, but why should that be any different from the rest of life?
Very truly yours,
Ms. Margo
--
ma...@netcom.com
Please don't send wanna's, as I'm having a hell of a time with the men
that I have.
Bond....
> In article <mattison.795680622@cnj>, Mattison <matt...@cnj.digex.net> wrote:
>
> speak. Damn, what is it about a man suffering that thrills me so much
>
>>and amusement. To me this is a major turn on. And I must say I'm far
>>from alone among sub men in this respect.
>>
>
> Well then..stand up, let yourselves be counted! I am ready to reconsider
> my position on sub men!
Count Me! Count Me!
My pain is only really nice when it's *for* my top.
Bond...
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