Censor the kiddie porn? I don't think so....
Jazz411
plea...@netcom.com (Tanith Tyrr) wrote:
>***Disclaimer - any "wannafuck" or sexually explicit email sent to this
>address *will* be forwarded to your postmaster and possibly published here
>for people to laugh at. I'm not kidding.**
>Mule recently published in alt.sex.femdom some lovely little *fantasies*,
>pretty clearly presented as fantasies, and apparently a bunch of people
>have jumped on the bandwagon and decided to abuse him and suggest that
>he's a pedophile. Welcome to the Thought Police, people.
>Just FYI, I happen to enjoy textual kiddie porn, that is to say, written
>fantasies about naughty little boys and girls. ;> While I have no
>interest whatsoever in *actual* under-18 play partners, age play,
>infantilism, regression and fantasy play are great fun to indulge in -
>with grown-ups, of course!
>One of my favorite long-term clients (a 40 year old man, by the way) had a
>12-year old little girl persona named "Penelope". I had great fun being
>a wicked Victorian governess who shamelessly exploited poor little
>Penelope and made her into a prostitute to earn money for the boarding
>school. ;> We wrote fantasies back and forth and the like, and these
>fantasies would most certainly qualify as kiddie porn. Our actual
>doings, that of an adult professional dominatrix with a 40 year old man,
>hardly fall under the category of child abuse. No under-18 individual
>was ever involved in our play, of course.
>I also liked to play out a "Mrs. Robinson" type fantasy with my lover,
>where he would pretend to be a shy teenage delivery boy, and I would
>entice him into my house and seduce him into....oh, all sorts of nasty
>things, eventually tying him up and having my way with him. Heck,
>sometimes I'd use "force" or blackmail, or offer to pay him for his
>"special services". I don't remember if I wrote up any accounts of
>these fantasies we played out, but if I had, they definitely would have
>read like statutory rape. Never mind that in reality we are both adults
>and he is two years older than I.
>Mutual fantasies with your grown up partner are consensual play, and
>unless we live in George Orwell's vision of a totalitarian state, *you
>are allowed to have whatever fantasies you want*.
>Real child abuse is sick, horrible, shameful and the perpetrators IMO need
>to be shot. Though I'll argue that arbitrary ages of consent don't work
>across the board for everyone, actually forcing or coercing a young child
>to have sex with you is one of those Very Bad Things that just deserves
>consequences. I am not talking about two horny teenagers who want each
>other in technical violation of their local state laws, either.
>But trying to punish people for having fantasies? Sheesh. Liking age
>play and fantasies of same does *not* mean you're a pedophile or are
>likely to become one. If I was faced with an *actual* 12 year old girl
>who wanted to actually become a whipped and abused prostitute, I'd be
>horrified and suggest she get therapy and counselling. That isn't fun and
>that isn't play; that's real life. When that fantasy comes out of the
>mouth of a 40 year old man, on the other hand, I think it's jolly good fun
>to play along with it.
>Part of the attraction of age play is that it isn't reality and can't be
>mistaken for reality. I know for a solid unshakeable fact that I am
>*not* committing abuse or doing harm to anyone; it's just good consensual
>fun with another adult who understands what's really going on underneath
>the fantasy game.
>Involving an immature individual in physical or psychological edge play is
>IMO a complete mess, a ticking time bomb, no fun at all, requires mental
>babysitting and is an ethical risk because you can't be sure if completely
>informed consent has been given. I have defined some folks over 18 as
>immature for my purposes - my optimum minimal age for a play partner for
>heavy play or age regression is at least 25.
>Playing with a real youngster as opposed to a fully consenting adult is
>analagous to juggling flaming knives with the circus apprentice instead of
>your skilled partner. BDSM play, and even just plain sex, is fraught with
>all sorts of emotional pitfalls and traps, and without a competent adult
>partner to help you "juggle" things, you're likely to get a flaming knife
>stuck in an intimate portion of your anatomy.
>While I won't deny that there are actual pedophiles "out there", I would
>have to strongly suspect based on what I know of the demographics of the
>adult community online that the majority of the "kiddie" fantasies out
>there are written and enjoyed by people who cast *themselves* in the
>fantasy role of a child.
>They don't want to do unto others, they want to be done to, and they
>fantasize themselves into the powerless (submissive) role of a young child
>who is ordered by authority figures to enjoy sex. Lots of juicy Freudian
>complexes and all that play a role in this fantasy, but the aggressive
>desire to go out and do harm to children simply isn't a part of it. The
>desire to explore hidden parts of your own psyche and let them speak
>clearly often is.
>Regards,
>Tanith
>******************************************************************************
>"That which does not kill me makes * "Telepaths don't *need* safewords!"
>me stronger. That which does kill * "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats,
>me makes me Undead." * for they are subtle and will pee on
> * your keyboard."
>******************************************************************************
Thanks for clearing that up for others. When I wrote my "Olsen Twins" story, I got
several complaints, despite my disclaimer. Hopefully people will now understand the
difference between fantasy and reality.
Suzanne
plea...@netcom.com (Tanith Tyrr) wrote:
>Mule recently published in alt.sex.femdom some lovely little *fantasies*,
>pretty clearly presented as fantasies, and apparently a bunch of people
>have jumped on the bandwagon and decided to abuse him and suggest that
>he's a pedophile. Welcome to the Thought Police, people.
>Just FYI, I happen to enjoy textual kiddie porn, that is to say, written
>fantasies about naughty little boys and girls. ;> While I have no
>interest whatsoever in *actual* under-18 play partners, age play,
>infantilism, regression and fantasy play are great fun to indulge in -
>with grown-ups, of course!
It all depends on what you call kiddy porn. To me, kiddy porn is
photographs of young children being abused sexually by adults. To the
law in Holland, kiddy porn is pictures and video's, not text.
I participate in the "hotline against child pornography". That's an
organisation of people who didn't want to wait for the government in
Holland to make their own CDA and who decided to take action against
kiddy porn. Right now, the hotline has been officially recognized by
the government (the minister of Justice has officially opened the
hotline homepage) and at the same time it's us netizens, not civil
servants, running the hotline.
If you, Tanith, would see the kind of pictures that are sent to the
hotline, you would never say something like "I don't mind kiddy porn
that much". Ever seen a video of a five year old girl being fucked by
an old man? It was found on the internet. I don't mind pictures of
nude 14 year old girls or any texts on kids. But, speaking as a mother
of two young kids, I ask you to never say again "I don't mind kiddy
porn".
Suzanne
toy at the end of a chain
glo...@mistress.com
i enjoyed what you wrote
yes, we don't need thought police
fantasy is fantasy
and to indulge in it at THAT level
(with consenting adults only)
is a GOOD THING
because it is a form of release/catharsis/sharing/personal growth
in which no one is harmed emotionally or physically
AND it probably stops some REAL crime
since the person has an outlet for it via fiction, phone fantasy etc
Jaggery the Rascal
In article <326359f7...@news.xs4all.nl>, Suzanne
<tat...@xs4all.nl> writes
>
>If you, Tanith, would see the kind of pictures that are sent to the
>hotline, you would never say something like "I don't mind kiddy porn
>that much". Ever seen a video of a five year old girl being fucked by
>an old man? It was found on the internet. I don't mind pictures of
>nude 14 year old girls or any texts on kids. But, speaking as a mother
>of two young kids, I ask you to never say again "I don't mind kiddy
>porn".
she come even CLOSE to saying that she did. In fact, her whole post was
quite clearly saying that there was a huge difference between fantasy
and the 'real thing'. She was very clear in her condemnation of child
abuse and child abusers.
I think the hotline idea is a splendid one - all power to you. However,
might I suggest that in future Suzanne, you read the whole post much
more carefully before you make assertions about what someone said or
didn't say, and speaking personally, I reckon you owe Tanith a VERY
large apology.
Jags.
>
--
Jaggery the Rascal
Suzanne
>Ummm.. Tanith *didn't* say 'I don't mind kiddy porn that much' nor did
>she come even CLOSE to saying that she did.
What I objected to is to make kiddy porn a subject that's to be
discussed in a group like this. It's the subject line that triggered
me. I was way too harsh, maybe because of the things I've seen lately.
> I reckon you owe Tanith a VERY large apology.
Tanith, I hadn't read your post carefully enough. I apologize for
suggesting you said things you haven't said at all. I reread your
post, and you did say
>Real child abuse is sick, horrible, shameful and the perpetrators IMO need
>to be shot.
Again, I do apologize.
Suzanne
toy at the end of a chain
Steven S. Davis
tat...@xs4all.nl (Suzanne) wrote, IRT plea...@netcom.com (Tanith Tyrr):
> >Mule recently published in alt.sex.femdom some lovely little
> >*fantasies*, pretty clearly presented as fantasies, and apparently
^^^^^^^^^^^
> >a bunch of people have jumped on the bandwagon and decided to abuse
> >him and suggest that he's a pedophile. Welcome to the Thought Police,
> >people.
Pedophilephobia is the last refuge of the thought police.
Or at least the latest one.
> >Just FYI, I happen to enjoy textual kiddie porn, that is to say,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >written fantasies about naughty little boys and girls. ;> While
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >I have no interest whatsoever in *actual* under-18 play partners,
> >age play, infantilism, regression and fantasy play are great fun to
> >indulge in - with grown-ups, of course!
> It all depends on what you call kiddy porn. To me, kiddy porn is
> photographs of young children being abused sexually by adults. To
> the law in Holland, kiddy porn is pictures and video's, not text.
For the moment, that is also the law in the USA, though some
conservative Senators are reported to be trying to alter the
current law, which is based on Supreme Cort decisions which
make forms of expression produced with the use of a child illegal
because of society's interest in protecting the child. Despite
some of the scare-mongering concerning the "Aunt Karen" story,
only pictorial kiddie-porn is at present illegal in the USA.
What Mule wrote, and what has been under dicussion, is text.
> If you, Tanith, would see the kind of pictures that are sent to the
> hotline, you would never say something like "I don't mind kiddy porn
> that much".
Probably not. Tanith already expressed her disapproval of abuse,
along with the fact that she doesn't mind (textual) kidie porn.
I doubt that she's so sheltered that confronting a piece of reality
would alter her opinion of fantasy.
Were I ever to succeed in cracking my way into the FBI Behavioral
Sciences Unit (for the record, I disaprove both of cracking and
of using material against the wishes of its owners(s), so this
is just a fantasy) and obtaining the photos taken by sexual sadist
serial killers and FBI/police photos of the results of their
efforts, it won't end my interest in NC and snuff fiction.
> Ever seen a video of a five year old girl being fucked by
> an old man? It was found on the internet.
And such was available to be found before the internet existed.
> I don't mind pictures of nude 14 year old girls
That's kiddie porn on this side of the pond. So it seems that
you don't mind kiddie porn either ("Pervert !" "Why, yes. How
may I be of service ?"). What you mind, and what Tanith made
clear that she minds, is the abuse of children.
> or any texts on kids.
> But, speaking as a mother of two young kids, I ask you
> to never say again "I don't mind kiddy porn".
Is this taking the pledge against "demon kiddie porn", or swearing
an oath that "one is not now, nor has one ever been, not offended
by kiddie porn" ?
I can't speak for Tanith, and I wasn't asked, but I'll answer
for myself anyway.
I'm sorry, but I can't say that. I don't mind kiddie porn.
I don't regard what I write as kiddie porn*, I'm not interested
in age-play, infantilism, or regression, nor am I interested in
children as sexual objects, nor do I think it wise - generally -
to have sexual relationships with anyone under 18 (not that
sexual relationships with people over 18 are usually such a
bright idea). But I don't mind kiddie porn stories, and if
I should start reading alt.sex.stories.d again I'll probably
jump into whatever pedo flamewar is going on at the moment
and defend them again. And I don't mind nude pictures of
people of any age, though particularly blatant depictions
of pre/early teens are both distasteful to me, and, IMO,
grounds for concern about the person depicted.
* - Though, now that I think of it, I've a couple
Images that probably qualify (one about a
wife/slave/stepmother being abused by her master's
children, another about a femdom's children tormenting
a captive). And I have used children in fictional
torture scenes (for the purpose of further hurting
the adult victims). Oddly, no one's ever found the
kiddie porn elements in my stories particularly
noteworthy.
If what you mean is that I should mind the abuse of children,
I do (I also mind the abuse of adults). I'll also say that
children have not the capability of informed consent to
either sex or BDSM (though when one ceases to be a child is
by no means certain, as there are 15 year olds capable of
informed consent and 25 year olds not so capable, and 18 is
merely an arbitrary cut-off).
But, while I respect your concern as a mother about child abuse,
let me ask you the following: If the parent of someone who
had been raped, or nonconsensually beaten, or murdered, were
to demand that I be offended by (and presumably, cease to
either post, or defend the posting of) nonconsensual stories
or fantasies, would you expect me to agree ? I fear that you
would be disappointed, as I would not cease to enjoy, post
(when energy and ambition are sufficient for me to write some
more), or defend the posting of such.
It might please Dana Palmer (not that pleasing that individual
is one of my concerns) that I usually apply copious labels,
warnings, and disclaimers to my NC fiction, and I urge others
to label their fiction whenever they can do so. But I'll
continue to post it, knowing full well that NC fiction offends
many (just as many are offended by posts about what it is that
we do, which they regard as sick and abusive).
I don't mind kiddie porn. I don't mind fiction or fantasies
of nonconsensual acts. I don't mind snuff stories. I do
mind, among other things, the abuse of children, and the
abuse of adults.
********************************************************************
Steven S. Davis s...@magenta.com sdup...@delphi.com
Homepage, vanilla: http://magenta.com/~sd
Homepage, pistachio: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/sd.html
Suzanne
On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:42:30 GMT, plea...@netcom.com (Tanith Tyrr)
wrote:
>Exactly, which is why I specified "textual". No children are harmed when
>an adult sits down at a keyboard alone and writes a story.
I have a friend, who has fantasies about young children being
tortured. He writes those fantasies down. I trust him he won't harm
any children, I trust him because he's my friend. But how do I know
that a man having fantasies about torturing children will never loose
his self-control and harm a kid? I know how strong sexual fantasies
can get. Will I let him take my kids to the zoo? He has never seen my
kids. Yesterday, I told him in email where he can find a picture of me
and my kids on the web. Would I tell any other pedophiles? I doubt it.
These days, there's a row going on in Belgium about this kiddy porn
network by which a number of young girls have been kidnapped and
killed. Yesterday, the most successful prosecutor was taken off the
case by the Belgian supreme court. Everybody knows why, but nobody
says.
Sure, I don't mind textual fantasies. I don't mind kiddy porn faked by
photoshop. I don't mind someone turning a picture of my children into
kiddy porn.... don't I? Should I ask MJ to take the pic off the net?
I really don't know.
If I'd live in the US, I'd probably totally agree with you, Tanith.
Public opinion and the law in your country are strongly against
pedophiles. Here in the Netherlands, there's a society of pedophiles
called "Martijn". They don't get subsidized by the government (I
think) but they're legal and open. Pedophiles sometimes come out of
the closet. One would think that creating a possibility for pedophiles
to gather and talk and exchange ideas and fantasies would help them.
But then, the chairman of that society gets sentenced for child
molest. The next chairman ditto. Now, with the Belgian Dutroux case in
the headlines, pedophiles don't out themselves if they don't wanna get
killed on the spot. The friend I mentioned before would only out
himself if he's suicidal, still he only writes down fantasies.
Now I find myself in the position of at the same time defending
pedophiles (thinking of my friend) and wanting them shot (thinking of
Dutroux and the chairman of "Martijn").
I want to make clear that I don't object to any textual fantasies,
whether kids are involved or not, and I wouldn't call these textual
fantasies kiddy porn. According to Dutch law, texts aren't kiddy porn,
and texts aren't illegal.
I do object to all pornography in which children are harmed or in any
way are involved non-consensually.
There's a lot of stuff "in between". I'm not sure about that stuff.
Sorry if my posting is a little confused. I am.
Free Crusader
Tanith Tyrr wrote:
> I don't think it's a good idea to take pictures of random adults and use
> them for these purposes either, unless somebody wants to do me a nice
> realistic montage of Jesse Helms and Senator Exon plus a barnyard animal
> plus a fictional photo-morphed kid......they all should be cross dressed,
> including the sheep, and a large bucket of sex toys should be in evidence.
> Now *that* would make a lovely WWW site. ;>
> Regards,
> Tanith
Tanith, dear, would you be terribly upset if I said I loved you? ;)
I know people give you a lot of flak, but posts like this are what makes this
group worth reading (IMHO). Stay opinionated and don't take any shit from
anybody.
Love,
Freedom Crusader.
markus
Tanith Tyrr wrote:
> Suzanne (tat...@xs4all.nl) wrote:
> : I have a friend, who has fantasies about young children being
> : tortured. He writes those fantasies down. I trust him he won't harm
> : any children, I trust him because he's my friend. But how do I know
> : that a man having fantasies about torturing children will never loose
> : his self-control and harm a kid? I know how strong sexual fantasies
> : can get.
> Havelock, Masters and Johnson, Gini Graham Scott, Leo Martello, Nancy
> Friday, Lonnie Barbach and the more recent work of Brenda Love, I would
> say that the percentages are at least somewhat in his favor.
>
> The vast majority of the (mostly) men and (some) women who write torture
> stories, even if the victim is dissociated from the first person of the
> story, are dealing with some component of themselves and projecting them
> outside onto a character. Some are reliving past traumas where they
> themselves were tortured; some are exorcising guilt or shame, and still
> others are wishing themselves into the role of the victim simultaneously
> with the role of the abuser.
Hm. Sometimes I fear that I'm not _that_ harmless. That is, I fear my
own fantasies. At one point I came to a kind-of solution: I divided my
fantasies into 4 groups:
1. fantasies I share with my partner and act them out
2. fantasies I just share
3. fantasies I keep for myself (but write or draw them down)
4. fantasies I keep inside my head.
The last group is the one which I find it difficult to deal with. In
real life I couldn't whip my partner even if she'd ask for it. I know
that I would never harm any child. But what's that thing inside my head
which tells me that I _might_ be able to do that?
My self-control has been strong enough so far, and I really believe that
it will be for the rest of my life. But as long as my fantasies
continue, I feel that I never can be sure.
And for the fun part:
> I don't think it's a good idea to take pictures of random adults and use
> them for these purposes either, unless somebody wants to do me a nice
> realistic montage of Jesse Helms and Senator Exon plus a barnyard animal
> plus a fictional photo-morphed kid......they all should be cross dressed,
> including the sheep, and a large bucket of sex toys should be in evidence.
> Now *that* would make a lovely WWW site. ;>
If you mail me some JPG's, I'll compose it for you.
--
markus
--- "Don't ask: nobody likes my answers." (m.)