On B&D vs S&M
Jamie A. Miller
usual arguments. There are those who believe that B&D and S&M are two very
different things which may or may not co-exist, and there are those who believe
that B&D and S&M are all part of a continuum and it's just a matter of "How
far" each participant is willing to go.
Until recently I placed myself firmly in the first camp. I enjoyed being tied
and I enjoyed quite a variety of other things, but I do not like pain. At all.
I have a most distinct aversion to pain. This certainly means I do NOT
appreciate S&M, no? Read on.
My sexual relationship with my SO has grown and changed constantly since it
began. We discovered a mutual and for the most part compatible interest in B&D
early on and as the ways in which we express this interest have grown and
changed so too has my understanding of what it is that interests us; why we
like it. Let me hasten to say that I am a long way from a complete
understanding. I am not a psychologist, nor am I an expert with a lifetime of
experience in this diversion. I *am* someone who has given this subject a lot
of thought and who has had a few personal revelations.
The first one was getting over the need to be forced. When we began I had to
be physically restrained or intimidated for "The scene" to work. Eventually it
occured to us that if I like to submit, and my partner likes to dominate, then
why should not we both do so? These days I submit because I like to, and my so
accepts my submission on the same basis.
The next revelation was spurred on by something I read here on the net. It
seems to follow naturally from the previous one, but still it was a new and
surprising thought to me: A "Session" need not be a punishment in response to
some real or imagined transgression - it may simply be "Discipline"
administered for the pleasure of those involved.
At this point it was becoming clear to me that D&S is not about physical
actions, it is about power and the demonstration of that power (and probably
about other things as well - anyone?) This line of thought lead to the
revelation that caused me to post this.
Two days ago I was tied and soundly whipped. This was not a punishment, it was
a discipline session. I did not enjoy the pain - I struggled most
energetically to escape it - but I found the session satisfying. It came to me
afterwards that S&M like B&D is about power. To me they now *are* a continuum.
-------
To many of you this will seem trivial (You guessed it - this is my flame
retarding paragraph) but to my SO and myself it is very real, very new, and
very exciting. Our relationship has changed again, and we honestly do not know
where it will lead.
It is easy to get frustrated with the endless flames and me too requests in
this group, but for us it has been an invaluable resource. I hope I have given
a little back.
--
a...@mindlink.uucp
uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!a69
David B. Thomas
>It is easy to get frustrated with the endless flames and me too requests in
>this group, but for us it has been an invaluable resource. I hope I have given
>a little back.
Me too. And I want you to know that I am flaming you just because I want to,
not because of anything you've done to deserve it. :-)
David
The Leather Menace
>different things which may or may not co-exist, and there are those who
believe
>that B&D and S&M are all part of a continuum and it's just a matter of "How
>far" each participant is willing to go.
>Two days ago I was tied and soundly whipped. This was not a
punishment, it was
>a discipline session. I did not enjoy the pain - I struggled most
>energetically to escape it - but I found the session satisfying. It
came to me
>afterwards that S&M like B&D is about power. To me they now *are* a
continuum.
Well this oughta make Clay happy! :-)
Personally, I *mostly* agree. In that, I believe that most people who
participate in bondage,
pain, whatever, are really participating in power exchange, in various
degrees and ways.
However, I believe it is possible, and happens occasionally, that people
enjoy bondage or pain or whatever for reasons *not* related to power
but to physical stimulus preference. Or whatever. I definitely fall into the
*former* category though.
D!
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Beverly T Block
> At this point it was becoming clear to me that D&S is not about physical
> actions, it is about power and the demonstration of that power (and
> probably about other things as well - anyone?) This line of thought
> lead to the revelation that caused me to post this.
I wouldn't say that the fact that D&S is about power means it can't also
be about physical actions. The *ways* in which you express that
transfer of power are part of what make it B&D and/or S&M.
> To many of you this will seem trivial (You guessed it - this is my flame
> retarding paragraph) but to my SO and myself it is very real, very new,
> and very exciting. Our relationship has changed again, and we honestly
> do not know where it will lead.
This doesn't seem trivial to me, though it might to those who have never
experienced it. Learning new things about oneself can be very intense.
I doubt you'll get flamed -- I didn't when I was sharing my learning
process with the net. Thanks for making the decision to do the same!
> It is easy to get frustrated with the endless flames and me too requests in
> this group, but for us it has been an invaluable resource. I hope I have
> given a little back.
You certainly have. It is gratifying to know that the public discussion
of some very private matters has helped others to learn and grow!
In her reply, D! states:
> However, I believe it is possible, and happens occasionally, that people
> enjoy bondage or pain or whatever for reasons *not* related to power
> but to physical stimulus preference. Or whatever. I definitely fall into
> the *former* category though.
Well, the power exchange aspect is certainly part of it for me, and
sometimes it's all of it, but in general I do these things because I
like the way they feel. The most intense experiences are those where I
can't even think about power or what I'd like to have happen next,
because I'm so caught up in the Now. It doesn't really matter whether
it's gentle, drawn out teasing or being tied and whipped -- both can be
paths to that state of total focus.
Anyway, good luck in your continuing explorations!
Beverly
mccu...@alien.enet.dec.com
In some article bl...@bevrly.enet.dec.com (Beverly T Block) writes...
>> At this point it was becoming clear to me that D&S is not about physical
>
>I wouldn't say that the fact that D&S is about power means it can't also
>be about physical actions.
Hunh? What would you say? (I hate multiple negatives, it's so much easier to
parse the English structure if they're cancelled during composition rather
than during comprehension.) I think I got the meaning to be that "D&S can
also be about physical actions even though it is about power" - is that right?
>In her reply, D! states:
>
>> However, I believe it is possible, and happens occasionally, that people
>> enjoy bondage or pain or whatever for reasons *not* related to power
>> but to physical stimulus preference. Or whatever. I definitely fall into
>> the *former* category though.
>
>Well, the power exchange aspect is certainly part of it for me, and
>sometimes it's all of it, but in general I do these things because I
>like the way they feel. The most intense experiences are those where I
>can't even think about power or what I'd like to have happen next,
>because I'm so caught up in the Now. It doesn't really matter whether
>it's gentle, drawn out teasing or being tied and whipped -- both can be
>paths to that state of total focus.
>
>Beverly
>
I found this thread while catching up from being away for a week, and it struck
a strong chord because we were discussing this just last weekend, walking
across the Common on the way back from the Little Shop. For myself, I can't
claim great experience and expertise in this area, but I think I know myself
fairly well so I feel I can comment based on that knowledge.
For me, I think it is very different from the viewpoints I've generally found
in this forum. I see B&D as distinct and seperate from S&M. I enjoy one of
them, and I cannot begin to relate to the other. The distingushing
characteristic is the power exchange, or absence thereof.
I define B&D in terms of the power exchange between dominant and submissive,
while I see consensual SM as simply a specific form of sensual stimulation.
Non-consensual SM of course requires a power relationship, and the elements of
power exchange and sensory stimulus can be mingled in various degrees in
consensual practice - that seems to be the most common situation.
My perspective is probably shaped by my personality, which assumes power and
control at a fairly basic level. In other words, I can't feel powerless, even
if I temporary allow myself to submit to control by another's domination. But
I'm also not interested in a partner who is unable or unwilling to assert their
own power, at least to some degree. And I don't get any pleasure in asserting
power over anyone else, I simply refuse to allow them power over me. Ergo, the
exchange of power and what I define as B&D are something to which I simply do
not relate, because the concepts and dynamics are foreign (and disinteresting)
to me.
On the other hand, I do enjoy (very much!) playing with endorphin levels.
Physical sensations and stimulation are very much an interest, even though
power and control do nothing at all for me. There are some that I find work
well, others that don't, and the reaction to the different types seems to
depend on the individual (and perhaps on the arousal level as well). FWIW, it
seems to me that this is something that is more widespread than most folks
would care to admit, based on the acceptance by "straights" of major fingernail
scratches, bites and other marks administered in the heat of passion. Hmm,
does this mean that maybe SM is normal and B&D is kinky? :-)
BTW, I'm glad to report that the nipple clamps we purchased at the Little Shop
were well received, but from the different responses to the different types it
seems an extensive collection may be required. Oh, well, we'll just have to
suffer the consequences, so to speak...
Beverly T Block
In article <11...@shlump.nac.dec.com>, mccu...@alien.enet.dec.com writes...
>In some article bl...@bevrly.enet.dec.com (Beverly T Block) writes...
>>> At this point it was becoming clear to me that D&S is not about physical
>>> actions, it is about power and the demonstration of that power [...]
>>I wouldn't say that the fact that D&S is about power means it can't also
>>be about physical actions.
>Hunh? What would you say? (I hate multiple negatives, it's so much easier to
>parse the English structure if they're cancelled during composition rather
>than during comprehension.) I think I got the meaning to be that "D&S can
>also be about physical actions even though it is about power" - is that right?
Right. Dominance & Submission *can* be "just" about power. But it can also
be about power. Clearer?
>>In her reply, D! states:
>>> However, I believe it is possible, and happens occasionally, that people
>>> enjoy bondage or pain or whatever for reasons *not* related to power
>>> but to physical stimulus preference. Or whatever. I definitely fall into
>>> the *former* category though.
>>Well, the power exchange aspect is certainly part of it for me, and
>>sometimes it's all of it, but in general I do these things because I
>>like the way they feel. The most intense experiences are those where I
>>can't even think about power or what I'd like to have happen next,
>>because I'm so caught up in the Now. It doesn't really matter whether
>>it's gentle, drawn out teasing or being tied and whipped -- both can be
>>paths to that state of total focus.
>I found this thread while catching up from being away for a week, and it struck
>a strong chord because we were discussing this just last weekend, walking
>across the Common on the way back from the Little Shop.
Hmm, I wonder how close our paths were -- we walked past the Common on our way
*to* the Little Shop last weekend!
>I define B&D in terms of the power exchange between dominant and submissive,
>while I see consensual SM as simply a specific form of sensual stimulation.
Yes, but SM activities often take place within the framework of a D/S
relationship, and/or a bondage situation. I think of bondage and
sadomasochism as two forms of physical activity, which may be practiced
together or separately. If the structure of the scene involves transfer of
power, as it often does (judging by posts and a lot of fiction), then I'd say
there are elements of dominance & submission.
>On the other hand, I do enjoy (very much!) playing with endorphin levels.
>Physical sensations and stimulation are very much an interest. ... FWIW, it
>seems to me that this is something that is more widespread than most folks
>would care to admit, based on the acceptance by "straights" of major fingernail
>scratches, bites and other marks administered in the heat of passion.
Indeed. But it doesn't hurt at the time, so they're not into pain. Right.
Beverly
--
Thanks to all for the Divinyls pointers and lyrics
It's a fine line between pleasure and pain.
You did it once, you can do it again...
Beverly T Block
> Right. Dominance & Submission *can* be "just" about power. But it can also
> be about power. Clearer?
Yeah, Bev, much clearer. Shoulda been
Dominance & Submission *can* be "just" about power. But it can also be
about physical actions.
I'll just go back to sleep now...
Beverly
Asmodeus
An oxymoron.
--
"Sex work is being a gay man doing gay work in a gay city and being unable to
get your gay work published in the gay media because the work is too expli-
citly gay."
-- Mark I. Chester