Why So many THINK the PSX is so COOL and TRASH the SATURN!
Dustin Cushman
> Games?
>
> Of the games available right now (the playstation will be in stores in
> early June) Saturn has the best games, But in the future only God knows
> for sure.
>
Thanks for the info! I hope to see some excellent Saturn games. After bouncing
around on Playstation sites, I'd say the Playstation is going to put alot
of focus on 3-d type games. Primarily Racing games, Polygon like Toshiden
fighting games, and doom type clones. If you like those type, you might want
the Playstation. But the Saturn looks like it has some excellent 3-D platform
type games coming that are missing on the playstation. I can't wait for bug!
Dustin--
||
Dustin Cushman ||
Rcus...@vms1.gmu.edu __//__ I'd rather be excavating
Geroge Mason University \ /
\ /
\/
Diderich Buch
>Thanks for the info! I hope to see some excellent Saturn games. After bouncing
>around on Playstation sites, I'd say the Playstation is going to put alot
>of focus on 3-d type games. Primarily Racing games, Polygon like Toshiden
>fighting games, and doom type clones. If you like those type, you might want
>the Playstation. But the Saturn looks like it has some excellent 3-D platform
>type games coming that are missing on the playstation. I can't wait for bug!
true, that playstation clearly focuses at 3D. Seems that SEGA, desperately trying
to figure *what* to do, said "let's to both", hence both cartridge AND cd, hence
both "multiple layers" (2d) AND a polygone engine (3d).
in order to establish a market for their 3d-focused cd-based machines, sega and
sony will have to prove that the average future video game *is* 3d based, in
which they *will* fail. a tv *is* 2-dimensional, and as long as the media which
represents the visual part of the video game is a tv, you cannot base a market
on 3d games.
3d is a hype!
------------------------------------------------------
rgds Diderich Buch, Oslo Norway. Email: d.b...@ioks.uio.no
db95
Dustin Cushman
> to figure *what* to do, said "let's to both", hence both cartridge AND cd, hence
> both "multiple layers" (2d) AND a polygone engine (3d).
>
> in order to establish a market for their 3d-focused cd-based machines, sega and
> sony will have to prove that the average future video game *is* 3d based, in
> which they *will* fail. a tv *is* 2-dimensional, and as long as the media which
> represents the visual part of the video game is a tv, you cannot base a market
> on 3d games.
>
> 3d is a hype!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> rgds Diderich Buch, Oslo Norway. Email: d.b...@ioks.uio.no
>
> db95
>
so many titles on the playstation with the catch phrase "Real 3-D Time
Enviornments". The phrase sounds really neat and intriguing, but then when you
see a shot from the game you say "Oh, it's a Doom Clone"
Chris Weller
[STUFF DELETED]
>
> in order to establish a market for their 3d-focused cd-based machines, sega
> and sony will have to prove that the average future video game *is* 3d based,
> in which they *will* fail. a tv *is* 2-dimensional, and as long as the media
> which represents the visual part of the video game is a tv, you cannot base a
> market on 3d games.
>
> 3d is a hype!
>
3D is a hype that seems to be doing quite well. What games are people the
most excited about right now? Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, Ridge Racer,
Toh Shin Den, Tekken, Bug, DOOM...
Yep. Looks like a market to me.
Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
perspective in painting?
Chris Weller
>
> True, but 3D for 3D's sake is ridiculous, as is assuming that the future
> of gaming lies in 3D. XYZ games have their place, and it will become a
> very large place, but they will _never_ completely replace 2D. One can't
> base a market exclusively on either.
I disagree. I'd say that 3D may not work for some games, but on the whole
it will become as standard as movies with sound and color are now,
especially once things start looking less like they're made out of
triangles gone mad. At some point it will be as hard to sell a game with
no 3D as it is to sell a fighting game with no combos or a sports game
with no real stats or license.
The future of gaming doesn't derive from 3D. Nor does the market. They
will have to come from good playable games.
But 3D isn't just some sort of hype. It's what many developers have been
waiting for.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> sey...@telerama.lm.com | Seymont @ FurryMUCK | "O-TAY!"
> New Cool Ranch Flavour! | Seymont @ FurToonia | -Buckwheat Bogard
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Chris Weller
do...@interport.net
terrell gibbs
(Chris Weller) wrote:
:Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
:perspective in painting?
"2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
The Shadow
(terrell gibbs) wrote:
> "2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
> a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
This is true. It's also like arguing that CD's make albums
obsolete....er....no...bad example....
aaron stigberg
don't use some sort of 3d, maybe NBA Jam or something, but the backgrounds in
sideways scrollers (even in games like SSF2) and the starts, for example, in
space shooters, are basically 3D, so, yes, in that sense, 2d is outdated...
Part of what made KI so eyepopping at first was the way the backgrounds moved.
--
The bwoy three years old, mon, the bwoy like seven foot tall
Seven foot, mon ... We're not counting his hair, mon
st...@midway.uchicago.edu
Michael Carmack
: I can't think of any games offhand, at least not typical action games, that
: sideways scrollers (even in games like SSF2) and the starts, for example, in
: space shooters, are basically 3D, so, yes, in that sense, 2d is outdated...
: Part of what made KI so eyepopping at first was the way the backgrounds moved.
The background motion in side-scrolling games like SSF2 is not 3-D at all.
They use a technique called parallax scolling to simulate depth in the
image. There are actually multiple backgrounds drawn in layers on top of
each other. The "farthest" layer is drawn first and is scrolled the least
number of pixels; the "closest" layer is drawn last and is scrolled the
most number of pixels. This gives the illusion of depth to the
backgrounds, but it is definitely not really in 3-D.
--
========================================================================
"In sports, it's not who wins or loses; | Mike Carmack
it's how drunk you get." | mcarmack@freenet.
- Homer Simpson | columbus.oh.us
Jim Trascapoulos
(The Shadow) wrote:
> In article <tgibbs-3105...@med-pharm3.bu.edu>, tgi...@bu.edu
> (terrell gibbs) wrote:
>
> > "2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
> > a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
EXCELLENT analogy! My compliments!!
> This is true. It's also like arguing that CD's make albums
> obsolete....er....no...bad example....
Errr..no. You're comparing Impressionism to Realism.
Jim
--
Jim Trascapoulos * jtra...@nexus.interealm.com * Your Stuckeys On The Infobahn
** Digital Systems Coordinator & Graphics Designer - Chroma Copy, Denver CO. **
pcdirect449
>In article <tgibbs-3105...@med-pharm3.bu.edu>, tgi...@bu.edu
>(terrell gibbs) wrote:
>
>> "2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
>> a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
>
>obsolete....er....no...bad example....
Why is that a bad example? Albums are far from dead, and actually have a better
sound than cds. Whether 2D is better than 3D depends on the games you like.
I can name just as many great 2d games as I can 3D.
responses to : Frec...@msn.com
Seth Luisi
>In article <Dorje-30059...@dorje.port.net>, Do...@interport.net
>(Chris Weller) wrote:
>
>:Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
>:perspective in painting?
>
>a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
"3D" does not make "2D" obsolete and the person who said that you should not do "3D" games because a TV is "2D" is on drugs. Can't w=
e all get along. Grade games on their playability not thier perspective. A good playing NES game could be a lot better then some new=
"3D" special effect ladden game. It's the gameplay stupid. Whatever is more fun to play is the superior game. Not that "3D" graphic=
s are bad. They add a lot to a game but you must make sure it still plays good.
Seth Luisi
Assistant Producer
Sony Imagesoft
Paul Mooser
>I wouldn't say its hype, I just don't think it is all that great. There are
>so many titles on the playstation with the catch phrase "Real 3-D Time
>Enviornments". The phrase sounds really neat and intriguing, but then when you
>see a shot from the game you say "Oh, it's a Doom Clone"
You're limiting the genre by thinking that a 3d environment
means something is a "doom clone" - look at Ultima Underworld 2 -
a game which in my opinion far surpasses doom, and came out
years earlier. I'd be THRILLED if games of this caliber were
to come out on the Playstation or any of the next generation
consoles.
I'd much rather play a game like Tie Fighter than a platform
game like Sonic, or Mario, or whomever the next "mascot" character
may be ... Eew.
lee yu chai
: to figure *what* to do, said "let's to both", hence both cartridge AND cd, hence
: both "multiple layers" (2d) AND a polygone engine (3d).
: in order to establish a market for their 3d-focused cd-based machines, sega and
: sony will have to prove that the average future video game *is* 3d based, in
: which they *will* fail. a tv *is* 2-dimensional, and as long as the media which
: represents the visual part of the video game is a tv, you cannot base a market
: on 3d games.
: 3d is a hype!
: ------------------------------------------------------
: rgds Diderich Buch, Oslo Norway. Email: d.b...@ioks.uio.no
: db95
DOesn't the US saturn only come with one of the 32bit processor rather than
a pair?
It doesn't matter who has the better system... there's always newer and better
one coming out...
the game companies has to do lots of decent programing to help the system fly.
--
----
*********************************/\|\||/\/\E**********************************
_________/\/\ARCO Y LEE__________\ |*S /_____...@UX5.CSO.UIUC.EDU______
computer-engineering \ CooL! / Univ. of Illinois at Urbana
A!MEGAMISAMA*ROLW*GUNDAM*KOR*MI*DBZ\_____/SAINTSEIYA*BGC*RANMA*KOKOWAGREENWOOD
******************************************************************************
Robert B. Meyers
Cataudella) writes:
>
>In <3qjjv0$j...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> real...@ix.netcom.com (Jason
>Winiarski) writes:
>>
>>Just wanted to put my 2 cents in...
>>
>>Bought the saturn just a few weeks ago and still use on a day to day
>>basis. I know that may sound kind of strange; but i get REALLY bored
>>quite easliy by most games and systems.(And ive played them all...)
>>Not so with the saturn! VF1 and Daytona where a couple of great
>>choices to start off with. (but it would be kinda cool to race one
>>another on daytona, even if the graphics and play would suffer) You
>can
>>be sure ill be the first one to buy NHL Hockey on Friday and getting
>11
>>friends to play ALL DAY!
>>....thats if its raining outside.
>>
>>Congrads SEGA!!! Nice platform!
>>
>>(Comments and Critics appreciated...)
>>Reality
>>
>
>Actually, Hockey is not coming out Friday. I don't know how all these
>"selected" chain stores got early June for a release of Hockey on
>Saturn....that is, unless they're planning on getting the unfinished
>version that was shown at E3 a few weeks ago. I hear it's August at
the
>earliest.
Just because there is a set release date does -NOT- mean that the
company selling the game will bring it out on that day. I bought
Mortal Kombat the day before it was -officially- released. Heh heh.
Maybe if your lucky there are stores that do that with Saturn games...
-Sylert-
The Shadow
> Why is that a bad example? Albums are far from dead, and actually have a
better
> sound than cds. Whether 2D is better than 3D depends on the games you like.
Oh come on...this is getting a little off subject, but I've heard this
crap for a long time about Albums sounding much better than CD's. What a
load of crap. It's mainly from the audiofiles that invested in a ton of
expensive equipment when albums were big and now they are feeling insecure
about their investment. CD's sound MUCH better than albums, plain and
simple. I remember there being blind tests on this subject and all these
big audio guys got taken down a couple of notches because they picked the
CD's over the album.
Sorry, albums are dead. Go into a major music store and try to find an
album section. CD's have taken over and that's a fact. So why not just
dump your high-fi turn-table and get with the program!
Phrenzy
> "3D" does not make "2D" obsolete and the person who said that you should
not do "3D" games because a TV is "2D" is on drugs. Can't w=
> e all get along. Grade games on their playability not thier perspective.
A good playing NES game could be a lot better then some new=
> "3D" special effect ladden game. It's the gameplay stupid. Whatever is
more fun to play is the superior game. Not that "3D" graphic=
> s are bad. They add a lot to a game but you must make sure it still
plays good.
>
> Seth Luisi
> Assistant Producer
> Sony Imagesoft
It's good to see people in our industry who remember things like
gameplay! I hope your A.P.ing on some Playstation stuff! If anyone can
tell me why more people I know have spent more hours playing 'TWINBEE' on
the Playstation than Tohshinden and Ridge racer combined then you should
know POLYS don't mean ANYTHING! I do agree they have their place, but
only as far as their application is appropriate! So, we all know there is
Tetris and 3D-Tetris right? Which one is more popular? There is Street
Fighter and Virtua Fighter, which one captured more phanatic players?
Usually the people ranting and raving about Polys are the people who are
caught up in the hype that the magazines dish up! If you've ever sat down
for several hours (I have) with these poly based games, you'd know they
just don't give you the same simple pleasure that you get from playing a
fine crafted 2D game like Samurai Shodown 2, etc. There are definitley
games with promise, like BUG on the Saturn, and Wipeout on the
Playstation, and 3D games will certainly evolve into great, addictive, and
playable games in their own right. But to say that they will replace 2D
games is ridiculous! What makes games fun, exciting, and addictive now
will be the same things 10 years from now 2D or 3D.
-Aaron
Michael Carmack
: William Kendall (ssl...@primenet.com) wrote:
: : Supposedly Virutal Hydlide on the Saturn is going to be very similair
: : to UU and UU2 with photorealistic textures...I hope so, I'll be buying it
: : if it is. UU and UU2 were great games.
: Well, unless you guys have holographic monitors/TVs, I would say all
: those games are 2D :)
DOOM and it's clones are only in 2-D, but UW and UW2 were true 3-D games.
Want proof? Walk over a bridge, then jump off and swim under the bridge
you just walked on.
Jason Winiarski
Joe Cataudella
Actually, Hockey is not coming out Friday. I don't know how all these
Knife the Mac
>Just because there is a set release date does -NOT- mean that the
>company selling the game will bring it out on that day. I bought
>Mortal Kombat the day before it was -officially- released. Heh heh.
>Maybe if your lucky there are stores that do that with Saturn games...
>
>-Sylert-
plus its all connections ya know. I got SF2 for SNES at least a month
before the official release date.
--
____________________________ _________________
[kyle...@midway.uchicago.edu\______________________________/Alpine BA KEF RF ]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\'78 Land Cruiser TLCA #3195 /^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Knife the Mac
Albums are not dead. The question of sound quality remains debateable.
Audiofiles don't say records sound better..they say records have more
ambience and nuances that are audible. Plus I would like for anyone to try
and dig up even 3/4 of the stuff produced on albums as compared to CDs.
some of the best stuff you simply can't find on CDs
Nick Albright
[Anyone have a good idea for the best group for this discussion? All
this cross posting seems a bit excessive]
terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
>(Chris Weller) wrote:
>
>:Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
>:perspective in painting?
>
>"2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
>a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
Very good point. But if you have good 3D, why would you want 2D?
It seems to me that most 2D tries to look 3D. (Hence, the big deal over
the layers of paralax (SP?) scrolling) IF you cold have 3D that would look
just as good as 2D, then why bother with 2D? (I know it's a big if, but
for the sake of discussion. :) Who cares how many levels of scrolling
there are if the background is true 3D? What if all the characters were
just as detailed, and in 3D?
(You can certainly limit their movement to be the same as 2D, ie only
left, right, up and down, no in and out of the screen) While no machine
on the market today can do that, what about when they do get here. Will
there be a need for 2D?
Your thoughts on this?
Peace,
-Nick
--
P.S. Any spelling mistakes are not those of the author, as he can't spell. :)
PATRICK MASAO HORIO
indeed sound better than CDs. Try actually listening to an album
on one of these "audiophile" turntables before assuming this. There are
still people paying lots of money for turntables and albums today...
Dustin Cushman
> : Uh, I have Vhylide and I wouldnt buy it if you are expecting underworld
> : quality :)
>
> : Mark
> Thanks you ruined my day hehe
>
>
Whats it like? Could you give us a quick review. The screen shots look pretty
neat.
richard lemerchand
: IF you could have 3D that would look
: just as good as 2D, then why bother with 2D?
: While no machine
: on the market today can do that, what about when they do get here. Will
: there be a need for 2D?
Well, kind of. But by the time that happens, the distinctions between
what is what will be so blurred that they'll probably all merge into one
big amorphous Ultimate Rendering Routine!
As if the situation isn't tricky enough already! Did you know that
Clockwork Knight, for instance, doesn't actually use 3D code, but 2D
algorithms that deform bitmaps so that they look 3D (like weird 2nd
generation parallax {there's your sp. for you!}).
Of course, one of a top game programmer's most prized and important
skills is tricking the player into thinking that they're seeing something
that they're not (usually because they don't have the processor power to do
what they'd really like to!). I'd have thought that, even with a
super-whizzo-trillions-of-Hz games machine, they'd *still* be poking around
in its guts, trying to make it do something new, cool and completely beyond
what the hardware designers intended!
And then there's the 'spatial component of the playspace': the thing that
makes 'Gex' a 2D game and 'Doom' a 3D game... surely we don't want to do
away with games that play in 2D?!? I *still* love a good side-scroller!
Whaddya reckon, kids?
Lurve,
Rich Lemarchand ;)
Chris Curry
real...@ix.netcom.com (Jason Winiarski) wrote:
|>Just wanted to put my 2 cents in...
Well that's great but do you have to crosspost it to *every* video games
newsgroup to do so?
There has been a lot of crossposting lately and it results in a lot of
long threads with little interesting content, well maybe interesting to
a few people but not to the thousands of people that consist of every
video games newsgroup.
Can we keep the crossposts to a mininmum? please
Thanks
Chris C
------------------------------------------------+
In order to understand one must learn how others
see the world and then learn how not to see the
world how one wants it be (S)
------------------------------------------------+
Dave Whittle
> basis. I know that may sound kind of strange; but i get REALLY bored
> quite easliy by most games and systems.(And ive played them all...)
> Not so with the saturn! VF1 and Daytona where a couple of great
> choices to start off with.
Agreed. I dropped the game console habit when I got a computer 2 years
ago, but the Sega Saturn has me ignoring the computer and playing
"simple video games" again. I bought a 3DO a couple months ago, and
it got me re-interested with video games, but it's been the Sega that
has me staying up late playing "just one more level".
I am very pleased with the Saturn and look forward to future titles.
I also look forward to the PS-X, I think the combination of the two
will be the best of everything. And if 3DO can deliver on it's M2
promises, it will be a great world indeed!
Dave Whittle
> As if the situation isn't tricky enough already! Did you know that
> Clockwork Knight, for instance, doesn't actually use 3D code, but 2D
> algorithms that deform bitmaps so that they look 3D (like weird 2nd
> generation parallax {there's your sp. for you!}).
>
> Rich Lemarchand ;)
I'm not sure if I understand this.... to ME it looks like Clockwork
Knight, which PLAYS like a 2D game (you can go left or right, jump UP
or fall down), but the background and objects seem to have depth
as you walk by them (when they are in the middle of the screen, you
see them head on, but when they are on the end of the screen you can
see more of one side of the object).
Can you explain in layman's terms how this is not true 3D imaging?
Albert Ihochi
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.sony,rec.games.video.sega,rec.games.video.nintendo,rec.games.video.misc,rec.games.video.marketplace,rec.games.video.arcade,rec.games.video.advocacy,alt.sega.genesis
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!gw1.att.com!gw2.att.com!oucsboss!bobcat!albrnick
>From: albr...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu (Nick Albright)
>Subject: 3D vs 2D
>X-Nntp-Posting-Host: bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
>Message-ID: <D9IAE...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>
>Sender: postm...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
>X-Nntp-Posting-Date: Thu Jun 1 14:08:53 1995
>Organization: Ohio University, College of Engineerng & Technology
>References: <3p6vke$8...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3q9qho$m...@hermod.uio.no> <Dorje-30059...@dorje.port.net> <tgibbs-3105...@med-pharm3.bu.edu>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 18:08:54 GMT
>Lines: 34
>Lines: 34
>0470
> [Anyone have a good idea for the best group for this discussion? All
>this cross posting seems a bit excessive]
> Very good point. But if you have good 3D, why would you want 2D?
> It seems to me that most 2D tries to look 3D. (Hence, the big deal over
>the layers of paralax (SP?) scrolling) IF you cold have 3D that would look
>just as good as 2D, then why bother with 2D? (I know it's a big if, but
>for the sake of discussion. :) Who cares how many levels of scrolling
>there are if the background is true 3D? What if all the characters were
>just as detailed, and in 3D?
> (You can certainly limit their movement to be the same as 2D, ie only
>left, right, up and down, no in and out of the screen) While no machine
>on the market today can do that, what about when they do get here. Will
>there be a need for 2D?
> Your thoughts on this?
>
> Peace,
> -Nick
>--
>P.S. Any spelling mistakes are not those of the author, as he can't spell. :)
Well, 3D is great and all, but, one has to ask how are we going to manipulate
something in 3D with a control pad and while viewing a 2D screen. At best,
the 3D in games is an illusion. In the Next Generation interview with Peter
Molyneux, he brings up similar issues. "One of the other biggest problems
with 3D is that you have to get the person who's playing the game to interact
in that 3D. And that dear old joypad that we're used to was designed to play
2D... not 3D games." So, while you can create an illusion of 3D, right now,
there are limitations to the effectiveness in operating in a 3D environment.
Albert Ihochi
Albert Ihochi
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!slip3-24.acs.ohio-state.edu!ihochi.1
>From: ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Albert Ihochi)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.sony,rec.games.video.sega,rec.games.video.nintendo,rec.games.video.misc,rec.games.video.marketplace,rec.games.video.arcade,rec.games.video.advocacy,alt.sega.genesis
>Subject: Re: 3D vs 2D
>Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 05:58:40 GMT
>Organization: The Ohio State University
>Lines: 54
>Message-ID: <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>References: <3p6vke$8...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3q9qho$m...@hermod.uio.no> <Dorje-30059...@dorje.port.net> <tgibbs-3105...@med-pharm3.bu.edu> <D9IAE...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>
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>0481
Sorry! I didn't mean to cross-post this. It was meant for .advocacy. My
fault.
Albert Ihochi
Live Fast, Die Young And Pretty
1. 2 Control pads - believe me, they are 10 times better than *ANY*
home control pads.
2. 1 Arcade joystick - I have never used it because I like control
pads better.
And games are:
1. Top Hunters.
2. King of Fighters '94
3. Samurai Showdown 2
4. View Point
5. Aggressors of the dark combat.
6. Aero fighters 2
7. Art of fighting 2
8. Nam - '75
9. Last Resort
As you know, Neo Geo CD's are still pretty new and not too many
people is selling used CD games yet. (A lot of carts are for sale
though. I tried to buy used CD games by posting here but I have never
got any reply.) So I can't sell them for too much less of what I paid
yet. As I paid $1400 for all the above, I am willing to let go for
$800. If you don't like those games, you can take the machine and
controllers for $350.
--
Stripper
______________________________________________________________________
"Early To Rise, Early To Bed - Makes A Man Healthy But Socially Dead."
"I Can't Sleep - I Am A Walking Nightmare."
______________________________________________________________________
Andy Bates
HORIO) wrote:
And if you listen to a CD on a high-end CD player (> $1000), it can sound
better than an album. And with albums, you have to clean them, clean the
needle, flip them over, and even find the album in the first place since
many albums released today are no longer available on record.
CD is the way to go. Plus, I haven't seen too many car turntables recently! :)
Andy Bates.
aaron stigberg
Andy Bates <bates...@tandem.com> wrote:
>In article <3qmil1$j...@news.csus.edu>, p...@orion.sfsu.edu (PATRICK MASAO
>HORIO) wrote:
>
>> Umm, if you have a truly high-end turntable (+ $1000), albums can
>> indeed sound better than CDs. Try actually listening to an album
>> on one of these "audiophile" turntables before assuming this. There are
>> still people paying lots of money for turntables and albums today...
>
>And if you listen to a CD on a high-end CD player (> $1000), it can sound
>better than an album. And with albums, you have to clean them, clean the
>needle, flip them over, and even find the album in the first place since
>many albums released today are no longer available on record.
Well, we were discussing sound quality anyway, though my liking for vinyl
has more to do with satisfaction of holding a big-old sleeve (come on, would
Sgt. Pepper look so good on a CD booklet? NO.) and placing the record
on the turntable. We could talk abou DJing, the "nuanced" sound they offer,
or durability (many people have CDs that skip for reasons they didn't know
were a factor, CD's were sold as the ultra-durable medium, so people thought
they could treat them like s***, but you have to be as conscientious as you
are with vinyl if you want to make them last... I also buy vinyl because
in most cases it's less expensive.
But we can all agree that cassettes suck, can't we? :)
--
The bwoy three years old, mon, the bwoy like seven foot tall
Seven foot, mon ... We're not counting his hair, mon
st...@midway.uchicago.edu
terrell gibbs
(Nick Albright) wrote:
: [Anyone have a good idea for the best group for this discussion? All
:this cross posting seems a bit excessive]
:
:terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
:>(Chris Weller) wrote:
:>
:>:Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
:>:perspective in painting?
:>
:>"2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
:>a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
:
: Very good point. But if you have good 3D, why would you want 2D?
:
: It seems to me that most 2D tries to look 3D. (Hence, the big deal over
:the layers of paralax (SP?) scrolling) IF you cold have 3D that would look
:just as good as 2D, then why bother with 2D? (I know it's a big if, but
:for the sake of discussion. :) Who cares how many levels of scrolling
:there are if the background is true 3D? What if all the characters were
:just as detailed, and in 3D?
:
: (You can certainly limit their movement to be the same as 2D, ie only
:left, right, up and down, no in and out of the screen) While no machine
:on the market today can do that, what about when they do get here. Will
:there be a need for 2D?
:
: Your thoughts on this?
:
An advantage of 2D, and probably one of the reasons that painting has
retained its popularity, is that the illusion of 3D can sometimes be
better than the real thing, because it is possible to "cheat"--for
example, exaggerating and distorting perspective for dramatic effect.
Nobody has ever achieved with 3D animation the sort of fluidity of motion
that is attained by a good 2D animator, for example. Or consider the work
of M C Escher, much of which depends upon 2D images that look 3
dimensional, but which in fact could never exist in 3D space.
3D places additional constraints upon an illustration--and sometimes,
those constraints are too limiting.
Andy Bates
> But we can all agree that cassettes suck, can't we? :)
Yep, we can agree! :) Now let's drop this thread real quick before people
get upset!
If only others could embrace peace as we have, the world would be a much
better place.
Andy Bates.
Kevin Heider
writes:
>>> Umm, if you have a truly high-end turntable (+ $1000), albums can
>>> indeed sound better than CDs. Try actually listening to an album
>>> on one of these "audiophile" turntables before assuming this. There are
>>> still people paying lots of money for turntables and albums today...
>>And if you listen to a CD on a high-end CD player (> $1000), it can sound
>>better than an album. And with albums, you have to clean them, clean the
>>needle, flip them over, and even find the album in the first place since
>>many albums released today are no longer available on record.
>or durability (many people have CDs that skip for reasons they didn't know
>were a factor, CD's were sold as the ultra-durable medium, so people thought
>they could treat them like s***, but you have to be as conscientious as you
>are with vinyl if you want to make them last... I also buy vinyl because
>in most cases it's less expensive.
Yes, I agree. I am somewhat dissappointed with CD's in general. Everyone
says CD's are so great. There is simply way too much hype about CD's.
I have purchased too many BRAND-NEW DEFECTIVE CD's. With these
defective CD's, (I returned them, of course) often times ALL THREE OF
MY CD PLAYERS would skip or couldn't even find a particular track.
What flawless technology!
I have one mail order CD where track #17: "Two of Hearts" always skips,
repeats, and does custom mixes everytime I play it. :) Example: "I I I
I I I I I I I I I I". Total coolness, NOT.
Well CD's are smaller and somewhat more durable than records.
>But we can all agree that cassettes suck, can't we? :)
At least they are recordable. :) I often copy a friends CD to see if I
would like to purchase the CD. Sometimes I buy the CD, sometimes I
don't.
-- Kevin Heider
richard lemerchand
: I'm not sure if I understand this.... to ME it looks like Clockwork
: Knight, which PLAYS like a 2D game (you can go left or right, jump UP
: or fall down), but the background and objects seem to have depth
: as you walk by them (when they are in the middle of the screen, you
: see them head on, but when they are on the end of the screen you can
: see more of one side of the object).
: Can you explain in layman's terms how this is not true 3D imaging?
I'll give it a shot! In fact, you've almost answered your own question...
The backgrounds *seem* to have depth: you'll notice that most everything
in the background has a flat front face with straight vertical edges.
The side faces of the objects look like they have perspective and recede
into the distance, but in fact they are just flat bitmaps of the side faces,
that get deformed into a new shape (squeezed horizontally, mainly)
using the Saturn's sprite manipulation hardware, as the object in question
gets nearer the center of the screen.
So, when an object's near the center of the screen, the picture of its
side face is squished up so much you can't see it. As the object gets
near the edge of the screen, the side face bitmap is stretched out, and
it looks like the (actually flat!) bitmap is a 3D object viewed from a
different viewpoint! This puts much less strain on the Saturn's
processing power than doing full 'proper' 3D. More cunning than a big bag
of weasels that have just won a 'Most Cunning Bag of Weasels of the Year'
award!
A proper 3D system would have a mathematical model of three-dimensional
space, and would then work out how that space looks from a particular
viewpoint by sorting all the objects' faces into an order. Clockwork
Knight is actually only working in 2D spaces, and doing some 3D-looking
things in those 2D spaces... (and I'm still talking graphics here, not
gameplay!)
I hope this goes some way to explaining Sega's clever 3D simulacrum. I'm
going to have a tough time if challenged to provide a source for this
info, 'cos I've forgotten (it could've been 'Edge', Future Publishing's
very fine tecchie games mag). Anyway, it's quite easy to figure out
what's going on just by looking at the game!
Sorry if this is still to impenetrable... I know what I'm rattling on
about, even if no-one else does! ;)
Your fluff under the cyber-sofa,
Rich.
P.S. On reflection, there might be a bit of proper 3D in 'Clockwork
Knight'. How about that 'Transformer' robo-plane boss? Maybe Sega saved
themselves so much processor time with their crafty trickery, that they
had enough left over to do some 3D? Your comments are welcomed...
Mark MacDonald
: In article <3qme4q$1...@news4.primenet.com>, ssl...@primenet.com
: > : Uh, I have Vhylide and I wouldnt buy it if you are expecting underworld
: > : quality :)
: >
: > : Mark
: neat.
(apologies to crossposted newsgroups, this is meant for advocacy)
Ill be making a full review for Intelligent Gamer Online (I hope)
soon but bascially its just -very- simple and not great as an rpg,
although there are some good points. Send me mail and I will send you a
copy of the review.
Mark
Frank Joseph Soria
>Umm, if you have a truly high-end turntable (+ $1000), albums can
>indeed sound better than CDs. Try actually listening to an album
>on one of these "audiophile" turntables before assuming this. There are
>still people paying lots of money for turntables and albums today...
i agree...
have others tried a listen on a nice tube amp setup .. with the above level
turntable...
frank
--
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[] Frank J. Soria [] "If a listener nods his head when you're []
[] fjs...@cis.ufl.edu [] explaining your program, wake him up." []
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
CoreyK
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Yeah, this is getting REALLY off the subject but....
If any dumbshit is gonna "dump" their turntables, dump them on
me...
I guess vinyl just has A LOT more class than CDs do.
Its just cooler... oh yeah... been to Tower lately? Still think
you're having a hard time finding vinyl? Tower has all that and
the chips ahoy....
Here's the best argument for keeping vinyl around:
Its cheap, easy to manufacture and package (usually photocopies
and a baggie) and you get the dope colors 'o vinyl.
If you are screwed into buying only CDs by Colunbia House and
thats why you've got a one track mind, I feels sorry for you.
Back to the REAL subject.....
THE reason PSX is the shit and the Saturn isn't is this:
The PSX has those cool little save cards that go above the
controller input.
That is THE reason.
Zsolt Szabo
>And if you listen to a CD on a high-end CD player (> $1000), it can sound
>better than an album. And with albums, you have to clean them, clean the
>needle, flip them over, and even find the album in the first place since
>many albums released today are no longer available on record.
The problem with CDs is that they're quantized. So, essentially, a $1000
CD player will produce the >exact< same qualiy sound as a $50 CD
player--16 bit, 44.1 khz, 96 dB SNR. Of course the cheap player has bad
DACs, so the quality is reduced to, perhaps, 90 dB. But at around $200 I
would think you can get one with max. SNR. Of course you can still get
all kinds of neat effects to "clean" up the sound, e.g. oversampling,
which smooths the signal somewhat, but I would still think that a high
end analog signal will produce the best results. Of course CDs are far
more convenient, but when it comes to "professional" professional
recording, I would probably go with a 16 track (I think they go for about
$15k).
Gregory or Brian Smith
(ick) or with a VR (Virtual Reality) headset. The VR headset has two
screens inside it, one for each eye. With a screen on each eye, it
can make the eyes actually see depth, rather than just scrolling a
bunch of pictures at different speeds on one flat screen, or even
those "clever bag of weasels" (heh heh...) tricks that last article
described. Some VR headsets even track the movement of your head,
so if you look down, the view tilts down, and you can actually LOOK
left and right rather than, say, pushing a switch on the joystick or
a button on the keypad that tells the computer to put a
different view on the screen (referring to computer 3D flight simulators
like X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Wing Commander III, etc.).
I do think that a 3D SYSTEM, meaning a system whose only display
is a VR headset (or similar device) WOULD make 2D systems like the SNES,
U-64, Saturn, and all those others obsolete. If they didn't want to
use the TRUE 3D in a game, all they have to do is put the same thing on
both screens. Both eyes would be seeing the same thing, so the game
would essentially be in 2D.
Here is an example of how this works. I assume that all of you have
seen those cute little "Magic Eye", 3D random dot pictures. You know,
the ones that look like a bunch of garbage at first, but 3D pictures
pop out when you cross your eyes a certain way. Here is an example of
how the 3D technology works.
Converge your eyes, possibly by looking at the wall behind your monitor
or whatever technique you use to see the 3D "Magic Eye" pictures.
Remember that when you cross or converge your eyes, the objects your eyes
are not focused on appear as "doubles". i.e. if you hold your finger up
close to your face and look beyond it to the wall or something, you see
TWO fingers. I will put two dots on the page below. Converge your eyes,
or look beyond the screen, so the two dots look like four dots. Then
try to make two of the dots overlap, so there are THREE dots, instead of
four. This takes some practice.
Once you have done this, look at the picture below the dots, and you
will see multiple depths. The Smiley Face in the middle will appear
closer, while the ones on the sides will appear to be farther in the
background. Here:
* *
8) 8)
&|) &|)
;) ;)
8-) 8-)
;) ;)
&|) &|)
8) 8)
Pretty cool, huh? What is happening is your eyes are focusing separately
on two different objects that are identical, which fools the brain into
believing it is focusing on ONE object. Some of the objects are closer
together, making them appear to be closer to you. The farther apart the
objects are, the farther away they seem to be. A "True" 3D system works
on this principle, making your two eyes see two different pictures that
are NEARLY the same. Like going to the park and taking a picture with a
camera, then taking another picture, pointed at the same object, but with
the camera a few inches to the right of where you took the first picture.
If you tried to view those two pictures like you viewed the little
example above, you would see a 3D view of the park.
I hope this cleared some things up for you guys.
Hutnik, Richard
>
>The PSX has those cool little save cards that go above the
>controller input.
>
>That is THE reason.
And excuse me, what are the cart backups for the Saturn, chop liver?
One may argue that the PSX ones look cooler, but to say that the
Saturn lacks something similar is absurd.
-Richard
Please note, I own neither system.
Bo
> In article <shadow-0106...@192.9.200.133>,
> The Shadow <sha...@getaclue.com> wrote:
> >In article <D9GKH...@bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com>, Frec...@msn.com wrote:
> >> Why is that a bad example? Albums are far from dead, and actually have a
> >better
> >> sound than cds. Whether 2D is better than 3D depends on the games you like.
> >
> >Oh come on...this is getting a little off subject, but I've heard this
> >crap for a long time about Albums sounding much better than CD's. What a
> >load of crap. It's mainly from the audiofiles that invested in a ton of
> >expensive equipment when albums were big and now they are feeling insecure
> >about their investment. CD's sound MUCH better than albums, plain and
> >simple. I remember there being blind tests on this subject and all these
> >big audio guys got taken down a couple of notches because they picked the
> >CD's over the album.
> >
> >Sorry, albums are dead. Go into a major music store and try to find an
> >album section. CD's have taken over and that's a fact. So why not just
> >dump your high-fi turn-table and get with the program!
>
> Albums are not dead. The question of sound quality remains debateable.
> Audiofiles don't say records sound better..they say records have more
> ambience and nuances that are audible. Plus I would like for anyone to try
> and dig up even 3/4 of the stuff produced on albums as compared to CDs.
> some of the best stuff you simply can't find on CDs
and don't forget, some of the best new stuff can't be found on
cd's..why??? cuz the artists are too poor to put out cd's.
I seem to be able to find albums pretty damn well.. there's a couple of
independant record stores who boasts most of their collection as Vinyl.
I will not dump my turntable...acutally..i would. cuz it's preety fucked
up. And I need to get a new one (believe it or not, they still make them.)
> --
> ____________________________ _________________
> [kyle...@midway.uchicago.edu\______________________________/Alpine BA KEF RF ]
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\'78 Land Cruiser TLCA #3195 /^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
Bo
Army Life is right for me, Buy Buy Buy from Circle A,
Kill to save Democracy. Like Hoola Hoops, it's a disposable craze.
Got a rebel in my sights, Another Fast Food Fad to throw away...
Money's worth more than his life. Get your Anarchy for Sale!!!
---Descendants ---Dead Kennedys
David J. Warner
>
>> In article <shadow-0106...@192.9.200.133>,
>> The Shadow <sha...@getaclue.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Sorry, albums are dead. Go into a major music store and try to find an
>> >album section. CD's have taken over and that's a fact. So why not just
>> >dump your high-fi turn-table and get with the program!
>>
>> Albums are not dead. The question of sound quality remains debateable.
>> Audiofiles don't say records sound better..they say records have more
>> ambience and nuances that are audible. Plus I would like for anyone to try
>> and dig up even 3/4 of the stuff produced on albums as compared to CDs.
>> some of the best stuff you simply can't find on CDs
Point blank, folks -- vinyl will not die as long as there are hip-hop
heads like me who refuse to let it die. You don't have to like rap
music (hell, you could hate it all you want, as long as you don't feel
it's your God-given right to tell me about it), but you ought to know
that rap music is the #1 reason that records still exist today. Just a
thought.
Hell, I don't even own a CD player, CD-ROM or CD-based game system.
Doesn't really bother me. (with the exception that I'm pissed off at
Interplay for making Virtual Pool CD-ROM-only, but that's only one
thing)
--
L8A...
David J. (dav...@vnet.net)
Dir. of Network Distribution, HardCORE (http://library.uncc.edu/people/chris)
Michael Carmack
: Well, 3D is great and all, but, one has to ask how are we going to manipulate
: the 3D in games is an illusion. In the Next Generation interview with Peter
: Molyneux, he brings up similar issues. "One of the other biggest problems
: with 3D is that you have to get the person who's playing the game to interact
: in that 3D. And that dear old joypad that we're used to was designed to play
: 2D... not 3D games." So, while you can create an illusion of 3D, right now,
: there are limitations to the effectiveness in operating in a 3D environment.
Amen. I've played Descent a little on my PC but had to stop after a while
because a regular flightstick just couldn't cut the mustard. I needed to
use about 12 different keys on the keyboard as well as the stick to
adequately control my ship, and that really detracted from the game.
Sure, they make more powerful sticks that can make the game better, but
the cheapest one I've seen is $55 (the most expensive is $115). That's a
little too much for just one game, IMHO.
--
========================================================================
"In sports, it's not who wins or loses; | Mike Carmack
it's how drunk you get." | mcarmack@freenet.
- Homer Simpson | columbus.oh.us
Leet Wai Leong Simon
: Very good point. But if you have good 3D, why would you want 2D?
: It seems to me that most 2D tries to look 3D. (Hence, the big deal over
: the layers of paralax (SP?) scrolling) IF you cold have 3D that would look
: just as good as 2D, then why bother with 2D? (I know it's a big if, but
: for the sake of discussion. :) Who cares how many levels of scrolling
: there are if the background is true 3D? What if all the characters were
: just as detailed, and in 3D?
: (You can certainly limit their movement to be the same as 2D, ie only
: left, right, up and down, no in and out of the screen) While no machine
: on the market today can do that, what about when they do get here. Will
: there be a need for 2D?
Quite simply, if you actually have a computer which has the power to process
true 3D in real time, then imagine the amount of power you can devote to a
purely 2D game! And it is not true that most 2D games try to look 3D, many are
perfectly content with the stylistic effect unique to 2D, Darkstalkers and
Capcom's newest fighting games come to mind. The point is that many games do not
require a 3D playing field and to render them in 3D just to make them look good
is a waste of processing power which could otherwise be used to improve a 2D
game.
--
Simon Leet :) "Sex is like a game of bridge;
leet...@sununx.iscs.nus.sg if you don't have a good partner,
(http://does.not.exist/really?) you'd better have a good hand!"
Torajima
>It's good to see people in our industry who remember things like
>gameplay! I hope your A.P.ing on some Playstation stuff! If anyone can
>tell me why more people I know have spent more hours playing 'TWINBEE'
>on the Playstation than Tohshinden and Ridge racer combined then you
>should know POLYS don't mean ANYTHING!
I agree. It's the gameplay that ultimately counts. Of course, Konami won't
release Twinbee here, because it doesn't look "Next Generation" enough.
*Sigh*
I guess I'm going to have to buy a Japanese PlayStation after all....
Torajima
Grant C. DeLorean
>The problem with CDs is that they're quantized. So, essentially, a $1000
>CD player will produce the >exact< same qualiy sound as a $50 CD
>player--16 bit, 44.1 khz, 96 dB SNR. Of course the cheap player has bad
No, there are differences in the quality of the DAC chips. Most of
the ones used today are lousy, even on expensive decks. Careful
research will lead to the better sounding CD players, but you have
to have the quality amps and speakers and interconnects to back
it up (IE no "K-Mart Special" stereos need apply) or the effect is
lost anyway. Few people have the quality of audio gear to actually
take advantage of the better CD players or Lynn or Goldmund turntables...
(Lynn Sondek turntable will run @ $3000 configured nicely, Goldmund
turntables start at around $7,000 for the interesting ones. Prices
do not include amps or speakers or interconnects...)
>DACs, so the quality is reduced to, perhaps, 90 dB. But at around $200 I
>would think you can get one with max. SNR. Of course you can still get
There is more to it than that. Check out a few month supply of a couple
of audiophile mags...
--
/* Grant C. DeLorean (gr...@right.net) Right-Net Network Services
/* 1995 HD FLHR & 1995 BMW R1100GS
/* AMA Annual - H.O.G. Annual - NRA Life - IHMSA Life
/* TurbDUO+SNES+Genesis&CD&32X+Saturn+Jaguar+3D0+NeoGeo+(PSX ASAP) */
Zsolt Szabo
>>DACs, so the quality is reduced to, perhaps, 90 dB. But at around $200 I
>>would think you can get one with max. SNR. Of course you can still get
>
> There is more to it than that. Check out a few month supply of a couple
>of audiophile mags...
Of course there is more to it than that. You still have average frequency
resonse from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, total harmonic distortion + noise ( 1 kHz,
20 Hz to 20 kHz), residual unweighted noise, residual weighted noise,
interchannel isolation (various frequencies). Obviously I am not going to
get into all the technicalities, as this is not an audio group. The point
is that 99.999% of all the people will not be able to tell the difference
between a $200 CD player and a $5000 deck--assuming you're using the same
amps and speakers. Heck, just by using speakers you are already negating
>ANY< improvement you might get from using a $5000 deck--simply because
of the standard background noise present everywhere but a sound isolated
room.
Nils P Jacobsen
>
>In article <grant.802536710@right1> gr...@right1.right.net (Grant C. DeLorean) writes:
>
>>>DACs, so the quality is reduced to, perhaps, 90 dB. But at around $200 I
>>>would think you can get one with max. SNR. Of course you can still get
>>
>> There is more to it than that. Check out a few month supply of a couple
>>of audiophile mags...
>
>Of course there is more to it than that. You still have average frequency
>resonse from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, total harmonic distortion + noise ( 1 kHz,
Who flippin' cares???? This STUPID thread is crossposted to every single
video games newsgroup. If you have to show off your CD techno babble,
find the right forum to do so. I've set the follow-up to rgv.advocacy,
not that I think it will "help"....
Why, why oh why, MUST people crosspost ALL the time?
--
- Nils
-------- The Unofficial PlayStation Homepage ------
----------------------------------------------------
------> http://bert.cs.byu.edu/~nils/psx.html <-----
Mr Wrong
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Bo (bbe...@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: > >
: > >Sorry, albums are dead. Go into a major music store and try to find an
: > >album section. CD's have taken over and that's a fact. So why not just
: > >dump your high-fi turn-table and get with the program!
: >
: > Albums are not dead. The question of sound quality remains debateable.
: > Audiofiles don't say records sound better..they say records have more
: > ambience and nuances that are audible. Plus I would like for anyone to
try
: > and dig up even 3/4 of the stuff produced on albums as compared to CDs.
: > some of the best stuff you simply can't find on CDs
: and don't forget, some of the best new stuff can't be found on
: cd's..why??? cuz the artists are too poor to put out cd's.
: I seem to be able to find albums pretty damn well.. there's a couple of
: independant record stores who boasts most of their collection as Vinyl.
: I will not dump my turntable...acutally..i would. cuz it's preety fucked
: up. And I need to get a new one (believe it or not, they still make them.)
: Bo
Albums are definitely far from dead. I can count my cd collection in one
hand. Now my vynil collection that's another story. The problem with
CD's is that sound is sampled (get one of those CD players with the wheel
for the fast forward function and you'll see what I mean. When you turn
the wheel it is all gibberish because it just jumps from sample to sample
on a record if you speed it up you still heare everything.) BTW
interesting seeing you her Bo. I guess alt.punkers do have other
interests.:)
--
--Mr Wrong
************************BE STRONG BE WRONG********************************
Orion's sword. Raised in need, raised in deed - Vivat Grendel
*********************Two wrongs do make a wright*****************************
Seth Luisi
>Absolutely true, so why is SCEA concentrating SO much on "3D" and
>not giving any "2D" games a chance? To quote an acct rep from SCEA
>"Guy's if your not doing 3D games, we gotta sit down and talk ..."
>A great game is a great game, regardless of it's perspective, and it's
>perspective is not going to make it a great game.
>
>Hmm, my $.02.
>
>Zeke.
Zeke. Is that you. I heard you are now teaching Will Shatner how to
play games. At least that is what Arkin said. That would be a fun job to
just screw with Shatner. "Damn it Jim, shoot the Demon on the left."
"Captain, your man can't take much more of this."
Seth Luisi
Assistant Producer
Sony Imagesoft
It's the gameplay stupid.
The Zekeman
>tgi...@bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
>>In article <Dorje-30059...@dorje.port.net>, Do...@interport.net
>>(Chris Weller) wrote:
>>
>>:Do you think the same argument was used against the introduction of
>>:perspective in painting?
>>
>>"2D" games also use perspective. Arguing that "3D" makes "2D" obsolete is
>>a bit like arguing that sculpture makes painting obsolete.
>"3D" does not make "2D" obsolete and the person who said that you should not do "3D" games because a TV is "2D" is on drugs. Can't w=
>e all get along. Grade games on their playability not thier perspective. A good playing NES game could be a lot better then some new=
> "3D" special effect ladden game. It's the gameplay stupid. Whatever is more fun to play is the superior game. Not that "3D" graphic=
>s are bad. They add a lot to a game but you must make sure it still plays good.
Carusomusi
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nils P Jacobsen
>
>DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow! I guess the AOL stereotype is proven once again! Every single video
game newsgroup, content < 0.
Oh well. For those interested, new screenshots from Psygnosis will be
put up on my page today.
Mike Arkin
>From: carus...@aol.com (Carusomusi)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.sony,rec.games.video.sega,rec.games.video.nintendo,rec.games.video.misc,rec.games.video.marketplace,rec.games.video.arcade,rec.games.video.advocacy,alt.sega.genesis
>Subject: Re: Why So many THINK the PSX is so COOL and TRASH the SATURN!
>Date: 11 Jun 1995 11:33:16 -0400
>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>Lines: 2
>Sender: ro...@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Message-ID: <3rf2bs$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>References: <3qitod$d...@shaolin.hal.COM>
>Reply-To: carus...@aol.com (Carusomusi)
>NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>Xref: news.primenet.com rec.games.video.sony:2380 rec.games.video.sega:69972 rec.games.video.nintendo:76079 rec.games.video.misc:25225 rec.games.video.marketplace:29250 rec.games.video.arcade:77331 rec.games.video.advocacy:20392 alt.sega.genesis:11487
>DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right on brother!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Arkin ------> Mar...@primenet.com
Producer
Fox Interactive
Proud owner---'87 RX-7 Turbo II with California plates
SPOON!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sector Slayer
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet (602)395-1010
Distribution:
Hutnik, Richard (KV...@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU) wrote:
: >THE reason PSX is the shit and the Saturn isn't is this:
: -Richard
The Saturn has built in memory, you don't even have to buy a cart unless
you get a ton of saved games/high scores that you still want to keep. You
need to buy a card for the PSX right away to save anything.
Jason W. Nyberg
/Umm, if you have a truly high-end turntable (+ $1000), albums can
/indeed sound better than CDs. Try actually listening to an album
/on one of these "audiophile" turntables before assuming this. There are
/still people paying lots of money for turntables and albums today...
And tube-amps are better than solid-state, 2 guage speaker cables add
"vibrancy" to music, etc. etc. etc.
Do I detect a Golden-Ear? Run the output of that High-End turntable
through ADC->DAC before it gets to your amp, and I bet you can't hear
the difference in the least.
Audio system quality is subjective: Some people like vinyl, some like
CD. Saying that vinyl is more accurate than CD is laughable, though.
And before you flame me, ask yourself if you know what kind of technology
goes into digital audio reproduction... If the name Nyquist doesn't ring
any bells, don't bother...
--
Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com) My thoughts, my opinions.
Cabletron Systems, Inc. Merrimack NH
On the surface, in the air, under water, I'll be there!
Clippy
> : And excuse me, what are the cart backups for the Saturn, chop liver?
> : One may argue that the PSX ones look cooler, but to say that the
> : Saturn lacks something similar is absurd.
>
> : -Richard
>
> : Please note, I own neither system.
>
> The Saturn has built in memory, you don't even have to buy a cart unless
> you get a ton of saved games/high scores that you still want to keep. You
> need to buy a card for the PSX right away to save anything.
Try buying one before yapping - I own a PSX and I wouldn't have anything else.
Ridge Racer and Tekken KICK ARSE. Don't attempt to tell me otherwise.
Anyone else (usually people who have NEVER EVEN SEEN THE FUCKING THINGS
WORKING) who thinks otherwise is chatting BS - go and look before you
comment...
As for game save carts - YOU EITHER WANT ONE OR YOU DON'T. Simple. Understand?!!
Who gives a toss if the Saturn has one as well?!!
Cya...
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
CLiPPY € 'He who controls the spice controls the universe...'
Email:- sup...@macline.co.uk - www.atlas.co.uk/macline.htm
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Dave Glue
>Nick Albright (albr...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu) wrote:
>Quite simply, if you actually have a computer which has the power to process
>true 3D in real time, then imagine the amount of power you can devote to a
>purely 2D game!
This is simply not true. Generating vast amounts of polygons/sec and
manipulating lots of fast moving large sprites are two different
computation processes. Observe the Playstation for example- extremely
fluid 3D games, but simple 2D games (well, simplistic in comparison,
but good ports) like Raiden, Utlimate Parodius (sp?) exhibit slowdown.
The 3DO is another example. It can handle something as graphically
complex as Need for Speed, but it has trouble with a simply-side
scroller like Gex. Perhaps poor programming, but it also points out
that 3D power doesn't automatically equal 2D power.
Christopher Ballard
enough of the record shit. If I gave a piss about
vinyl, then I would be reading about it on another group.
untill they come out with a record-rom interface for my vids,
the shit needs to go somewhere else, and don't forget to
wipe... peace and humptiness,
--
:::| :|:| :::| :::| ::| Chris Ballard
:| :::| :|:| :| :| cb1...@xx.acs.appstate.edu
:::| :|:| :| :| :::| ::|
Andrea Morolli
: >Nick Albright (albr...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu) wrote:
I agree totally with you.
Take the PC. It's great in the polygons handling (for the big raw power
of CPUs like Pentium), but you rarely see a decent scrolling in a 2D game even
on a 486DXII66 (and when the screen is FULL of big sprites the game becomes
very slow). On the other hand a computer like the Amiga can produce 50fps
full screen smooth scrolling even on an ancient MC68000 clocked at 7.14Mhz;
but, with that configuration, it's very slow in 3D graphics.
This is simply becouse the Amiga has pieces of hardware (like the Blitter)
that are specialized in memory movements and sprite manipulations.
Then if you want the better, you have to have a machine with a lot of
computing power (for 3D) and a powerful memory handling specialized hardware
(for 2D).
So the ability in 3D calculations doesn't mean the same ability in
2D handling.
Bye.
Mike S Reynolds
Clippy <sup...@macline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Try buying one before yapping - I own a PSX and I wouldn't have anything else.
>Ridge Racer and Tekken KICK ARSE. Don't attempt to tell me otherwise.
Uhhh, did you even read what you replied to? The guy was talking about
saving games, he didn't even mention the quality of the PSX or its
games.
>
>Anyone else (usually people who have NEVER EVEN SEEN THE FUCKING THINGS
>WORKING) who thinks otherwise is chatting BS - go and look before you
>comment...
Again, read before you follow-up.
>
>As for game save carts - YOU EITHER WANT ONE OR YOU DON'T. Simple. Understand?!!
>
Sure, but the fact remains that the Saturn has built-in save ram while the
PSX forces you to buy a memory card to save games.
>Who gives a toss if the Saturn has one as well?!!
The Saturn has a RAM cart for additional space but you don't need it to save
games unless you run out of room in the built-in save space. The PSX has no
built in save ram so the memory cards are required to save data. Understand?
Mike Reynolds
Seth Luisi
>
>>Quite simply, if you actually have a computer which has the power to process
>>true 3D in real time, then imagine the amount of power you can devote to a
>>purely 2D game!
>
>This is simply not true. Generating vast amounts of polygons/sec and
>manipulating lots of fast moving large sprites are two different
>computation processes. Observe the Playstation for example- extremely
>fluid 3D games, but simple 2D games (well, simplistic in comparison,
>but good ports) like Raiden, Utlimate Parodius (sp?) exhibit slowdown.
>The 3DO is another example. It can handle something as graphically
>complex as Need for Speed, but it has trouble with a simply-side
>scroller like Gex. Perhaps poor programming, but it also points out
>that 3D power doesn't automatically equal 2D power.
Do not dismiss the 2D power of the PSX yet. I have played a 2D game
on the PSX running at 60 FPS with about 5 layers of paralax scrolling,
256 color sprites, 512 color foregrounds, 32,000 color backgrounds, lots
of sprites and absolutly no slowdown. The skill of your programer
determines how good the 2D games are going to be as the libraries for
2D are not as detailed as the 3D libraries. The PSX has some kick ass
2D games. Though none are publically available yet.
Seth Luisi
Assistant Producer
Sony Imagesoft
It's the gameplay, stupid. - C.J. Connoy 1995
Van Hoang Nguyen
>Do not dismiss the 2D power of the PSX yet. I have played a 2D game
>on the PSX running at 60 FPS with about 5 layers of paralax scrolling,
>256 color sprites, 512 color foregrounds, 32,000 color backgrounds, lots
>of sprites and absolutly no slowdown.
A 60 fps 2D game? I feel sorry for the animators (Or was it one of those CG
games?).
>The skill of your programer
>determines how good the 2D games are going to be as the libraries for
>2D are not as detailed as the 3D libraries. The PSX has some kick ass
>2D games. Though none are publically available yet.
This is something people say over and over... Yet there are others who just
can't accept it. Sure the PSX looks better than the Saturn for 3D _on paper_
and the Saturn looks better then the PSX for 2D _on paper_... But that
doesn't mean that the PSX won't have good 2D games, and that the Saturn won't
have good 3D games.
=============================================================================
Van H. Nguyen
va...@ocf.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley
"Awoooooh!"
=============================================================================
Van Hoang Nguyen
>Oh, well, make what you will of my opinions, I just don't feel it's right to
>say>that 3D is the wave of the future and 2D is dead. There are just too many
>people>focused on creating great pieces of eye-candy rather than a playable
>game ...>but I digress. Just my 2 bits worth.
If 3D isn't the wave of the future, it is definitely the trend. I don't think
it's a playability issue, but a graphical one. You can create much more
impressive graphic effects with 3D than you can with 2D. While 3D potentially
opens up a lot of new ground for playability, few titles I have seen or played
has taken advantage of that potential. 2D certainly isn't dead. People often
cite the increased complexity of gameplay that 3D offers, when calling 3D the
wave of the future. But that doesn't explain why a game like Bubble Bobble is
one of the most popular games in the arcade.
Mark MacDonald
: > : And excuse me, what are the cart backups for the Saturn, chop liver?
: > : One may argue that the PSX ones look cooler, but to say that the
: > : Saturn lacks something similar is absurd.
: > : -Richard
: > : Please note, I own neither system.
: >
: > The Saturn has built in memory, you don't even have to buy a cart unless
: > you get a ton of saved games/high scores that you still want to keep. You
: > need to buy a card for the PSX right away to save anything.
: Try buying one before yapping - I own a PSX and I wouldn't have anything else.
: Ridge Racer and Tekken KICK ARSE. Don't attempt to tell me otherwise.
: Anyone else (usually people who have NEVER EVEN SEEN THE FUCKING THINGS
: WORKING) who thinks otherwise is chatting BS - go and look before you
: comment...
jeezus, buddy try the decaf. The part where you say "go look before you
comment" strikes me kinda odd here, since whatever you are blabbering
about above has nothing to do with what the previous guy was talking
about. We know you like your PSX, ok? Try not to go in a wild foaming
rage everytime you see saturn or psx mentioned....he is just stating
facts about the save game features...
: As for game save carts - YOU EITHER WANT ONE OR YOU DON'T. Simple. Understand?!!
Uh, ok. I think the question is, do -you- understand???
Mark
Leet Wai Leong Simon
: leet...@iscs.nus.sg (Leet Wai Leong Simon) wrote:
: >Quite simply, if you actually have a computer which has the power to process
: >true 3D in real time, then imagine the amount of power you can devote to a
: >purely 2D game!
: This is simply not true. Generating vast amounts of polygons/sec and
: manipulating lots of fast moving large sprites are two different
: computation processes. Observe the Playstation for example- extremely
: fluid 3D games, but simple 2D games (well, simplistic in comparison,
: but good ports) like Raiden, Utlimate Parodius (sp?) exhibit slowdown.
: The 3DO is another example. It can handle something as graphically
: complex as Need for Speed, but it has trouble with a simply-side
: scroller like Gex. Perhaps poor programming, but it also points out
: that 3D power doesn't automatically equal 2D power.
True, true ... although good programming can help 2D games run better on a
3D based system, the computational advantages in 3D probably outweigh it. Still,
there seems to be a grey area as to what 2.5D stops and 3D starts. For example,
games like Doom are not true 3D, although the upcoming Quake will be ... given
the choice, hardware designers will probably go for designing chips able to
process 3D *specifically* which, I feel is a pity, cos' 2D still has a lot of
room to grow on a general processor like the Pentium. Current 2D games on the
PC suck mostly cos' of bad programming, rather than the Pentium being more 3D
"inclined". SSF2T would be a fair example (If it wasn't so dang buggy) Sorry
about the generalization, but I was thinking in terms of raw processing power
... even then a math coprocessor could really help a 3D game like Falcon 3.0
Oh, well, make what you will of my opinions, I just don't feel it's right to say
that 3D is the wave of the future and 2D is dead. There are just too many people
focused on creating great pieces of eye-candy rather than a playable game ...
but I digress. Just my 2 bits worth.
--
Simon Leet <leet...@iscs.nus.sg> :)
- NOTE: Please do not expect E-mail replies because I do not have overseas mail
sending access. Thanx to everyone who mailed me and sorry I have to
post all my replies on Netnews.
James Steven
Phrenzy
<seth_...@sepc.sony.com> wrote:
> Do not dismiss the 2D power of the PSX yet. I have played a 2D game
> on the PSX running at 60 FPS with about 5 layers of paralax scrolling,
> 256 color sprites, 512 color foregrounds, 32,000 color backgrounds, lots
> of sprites and absolutly no slowdown. The skill of your programer
> determines how good the 2D games are going to be as the libraries for
> 2D are not as detailed as the 3D libraries. The PSX has some kick ass
> 2D games. Though none are publically available yet.
>
>
> Seth Luisi
> Assistant Producer
> Sony Imagesoft
>
> It's the gameplay, stupid. - C.J. Connoy 1995
Forget about Parodius, look at gunners heaven! Show me the slowdown in
that. Who says you can't lay a sprite-like texture onto one of the 90,000
Polygons anyway?
--
!-------------------------------------------------------------------!
! Phrenzy ! My opions don't neccesarily, and !
! Amc...@ea.com ! if so, only coincidentally, !
! Watashi no iken wa watashi no ! reflect those of my employer. !
! kaisha no dewa arimasen. ! ** I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF ** !
!--------------------------------!----------------------------------!
! Somebody E-Mail me a good quote to put in here thanks! - Phrenzy !
!-------------------------------------------------------------------!
Kenichiro Tanaka
(Van Hoang Nguyen) wrote:
> In article <3ro65o$c...@nuscc.nus.sg> leet...@iscs.nus.sg (Leet Wai
Leong Simon) writes:
> >Oh, well, make what you will of my opinions, I just don't feel it's right to
> >say>that 3D is the wave of the future and 2D is dead. There are just
too many
> >people>focused on creating great pieces of eye-candy rather than a playable
> >game ...>but I digress. Just my 2 bits worth.
>
> If 3D isn't the wave of the future, it is definitely the trend. I don't
think
> it's a playability issue, but a graphical one. You can create much more
> impressive graphic effects with 3D than you can with 2D.
You say this as if this was a law of nature or something. ^_^ This is
purely a taste issue. While I think VF2 is stunning, I haven't seen any
games that match X-Men or Vampire Hunter in terms of graphics. Maybe in a
couple of decades when you can affordably have a real-time rendered fully
detailed Lei-Lei jumping around the screen while Donovan summons his Foot
of Death, I'll be convinced of the graphical superiority of modeled
characters. ^_^
>[...]
--
Kenichiro Tanaka tan...@maya.com http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka
Dustin Cushman
> purely a taste issue. While I think VF2 is stunning, I haven't seen any
> games that match X-Men or Vampire Hunter in terms of graphics. Maybe in a
> couple of decades when you can affordably have a real-time rendered fully
> detailed Lei-Lei jumping around the screen while Donovan summons his Foot
> of Death, I'll be convinced of the graphical superiority of modeled
> characters. ^_^
>
I must agree with you that while 3-D games have some good graphics, I still
think the 2-D games have a little bit better. We probably won't see some
really awsome 3-D stuff untill programers become comfortable and have
more experience programing in 3-D. Hey they've been doing 2-D since the first
home game system and now they are making the jump to 3-D. It will be awhile
untill we see some really awsome 3-D games. I'm not into racing and
flight sims though, I like fighting and adventure games. Personnaly my
ultimate 3-D fighting game would have a fully rotatable engine like
ToShiDen, but instead of computerish looking charcaters it would be actual
digitized or really realistic humans fighting. But thats not going to happen
anytime soon.
Dustin--
||
Dustin Cushman ||
Rcus...@vms1.gmu.edu __//__ I'd rather be excavating
Geroge Mason University \ /
\ /
\/
JBowden418
THE SHIT!!!!!
Michael Luchenitser
: FUCK THE SEGA SATURN AND SONY PLAYSTATION THE NINTENDO ULTRA 64 WILL BE
: THE SHIT!!!!!
I'd rather use controllers personally...
--
-Al
<ILSY>
Shawn Rader
: FUCK THE SEGA SATURN AND SONY PLAYSTATION THE NINTENDO ULTRA 64 WILL BE
Just remeber to unplug them first. Serious injury or death may result
from electricution.
--
-Shawn Rader
sha...@teleport.com
...Still searching for Akuma.
Van Hoang Nguyen
>You say this as if this was a law of nature or something. ^_^ This is
>purely a taste issue. While I think VF2 is stunning, I haven't seen any
>games that match X-Men or Vampire Hunter in terms of graphics. Maybe in a
>couple of decades when you can affordably have a real-time rendered fully
>detailed Lei-Lei jumping around the screen while Donovan summons his Foot
>of Death, I'll be convinced of the graphical superiority of modeled
>characters. ^_^
True, Vampire Hunter and X-Men have very nice graphics if you are capable of
appreciating it (and many people can't...). But admit it, 3D games have a
much bigger "wow" factor than 2D games do, for most people. I would imagine
that a Disney animator would have more respect for Vampire Hunter than VF2,
but Joe Blow will be much more impressed with VF2. One advantage of 2D is
that you CAN have a giant foot come out of the sky to stomp on people, and it
doesn't look stupid (It looks silly, but it doesn't look stupid). 3D graphics
seem too limited right now, they can't have games that have as much
creativity as Vampire Hunter.
Unfortunately though, many of the games coming out these days go for the "wow"
factor instead of creativity.
Kevin Heider
writes:
>JBowden418 (jbowd...@aol.com) wrote:
>FUCK THE SEGA SATURN AND SONY PLAYSTATION THE NINTENDO ULTRA 64 WILL
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Just remeber to unplug them first. Serious injury or death may result
>from electricution.
>--
>-Shawn Rader
Yeah, he is the first guy I have seen that liked the Saturn & PSX so
much that he suggests people fuck 'em. :)
-- Kevin Heider
Andy Bates
(Van Hoang Nguyen) wrote:
> True, Vampire Hunter and X-Men have very nice graphics if you are capable of
> appreciating it (and many people can't...). But admit it, 3D games have a
> much bigger "wow" factor than 2D games do, for most people. I would imagine
> that a Disney animator would have more respect for Vampire Hunter than VF2,
> but Joe Blow will be much more impressed with VF2. One advantage of 2D is
> that you CAN have a giant foot come out of the sky to stomp on people, and it
> doesn't look stupid (It looks silly, but it doesn't look stupid). 3D
graphics
> seem too limited right now, they can't have games that have as much
> creativity as Vampire Hunter.
But imagine in a few years when the technology improves...
Virtua Night Warriors: Donovan pulls off his Foot of God attack...the
ambient light fades to a dim grey...the camera suddenly pulls back about
100 feet and tilts up to reveal a huge 250-foot god appearing out of the
clouds and stomping Tsien-Ko! All with real-time flickering lightning,
semi-transparent clouds, and customizable camera angles!
I can always dream.
Andy Bates.
CLiPSTER
> comment" strikes me kinda odd here, since whatever you are blabbering
> about above has nothing to do with what the previous guy was talking
> about. We know you like your PSX, ok? Try not to go in a wild foaming
> rage everytime you see saturn or psx mentioned....he is just stating
> facts about the save game features...
>
> : As for game save carts - YOU EITHER WANT ONE OR YOU DON'T. Simple.
Understand?!!
>
> Uh, ok. I think the question is, do -you- understand???
>
> Mark
Trouble is - all these conferences are the same old thing.
"Oh it can do this, but not this - Saturn does this better, Sony does THIS
better" etc etc etc etc etc
Everyone talking about what machine can do this or that and whether they
should buy when it should be a case of going somewhere, having a play, and
then either buying it or not.
Sure, do a bit of research, but let's face it - anyone who buys a PSX OR a
Saturn can't go wrong - what have you been used to before?
Certainly nothing CLOSE to what these machines can do (and it's not like
Sega or Sony are going down the tubes in a couple of months - your money's
safe!)
All the other machines offering 'Next Gen' performance are way off - go
sample some NOW!
And your right, I was a bit 'lairy' in that previous reply - sorry, but
I've been through all this crap before when I had an Amiga (my machine can
do this, my machine can do that - no it can't, yes it can...)
Chill...
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
CLiPPY € 'He who controls the spice controls the universe'
Michael Luchenitser
: Trouble is - all these conferences are the same old thing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
along with some guy who comes along and says something to the effect
of "This is all stupid anyhow".... !
: "Oh it can do this, but not this - Saturn does this better, Sony does THIS
: better" etc etc etc etc etc
[snip-snip-snip]
: Chill...
: //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
: CLiPPY € 'He who controls the spice controls the universe'
: Email:- sup...@macline.co.uk - www.atlas.co.uk/macline.htm
: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
<G>.
--
-Al
<ILSY>
Michael Luchenitser
: JBowden418 (jbowd...@aol.com) wrote:
: : F--K THE SEGA SATURN AND SONY PLAYSTATION THE NINTENDO ULTRA 64 WILL BE
: : THE S--T!!!!!
: Like he's seen the Ultra 64. Shut up unless you know what you're
: talking about.
: -Greg
I really don't think anybody took it to heart...
--
-Al
<ILSY>
Gregory Chong
OCrimsono
i have both!
SCOTT WATSON
: In <3s2go5$c...@kelly.teleport.com> sha...@teleport.com (Shawn Rader)
: writes:
: >JBowden418 (jbowd...@aol.com) wrote:
: >FUCK THE SEGA SATURN AND SONY PLAYSTATION THE NINTENDO ULTRA 64 WILL
: >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >
: >Just remeber to unplug them first. Serious injury or death may result
: >from electricution.
: >-Shawn Rader
: Yeah, he is the first guy I have seen that liked the Saturn & PSX so
: much that he suggests people fuck 'em. :)
: -- Kevin Heider
I didn't think they had released the groinal attachments yet! ;-)
--
L8er,
_ _ _ _ ____ _
Scott Watson - Salamander / \ | \ / | |/ ___\ / \
swa...@enterprise.powerup.com.au / _ \ | \/ | | | __ / _ \
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia / ___ \| |\/| | | |_\ \/ ___ \
Ensoniq ASR10, Yamaha SY22, and an .. / / \ \ | | | |\ / / \ \
Mike Hill
: they both are good but the control on the psx sucks compared to saturn and
: i have both!
PSX has an awesome controller.. The US Saturn controller is the biggest
piece of shit.. Sega of America took a nice controller, spent money to
make it worse, then released it.. With the Sony controller, you have
access to all 8 buttons plus the D-pad without changing your finger
position.. With the Saturn controller, it would be impossible to do a
move that used, say, X Z A + Right Shift
but on the PSX controller, you could do any combination no problem..
Aurora
>PSX has an awesome controller.. The US Saturn controller is the biggest
>piece of shit.. Sega of America took a nice controller, spent money to
>make it worse, then released it.. With the Sony controller, you have
>access to all 8 buttons plus the D-pad without changing your finger
>position.. With the Saturn controller, it would be impossible to do a
>move that used, say, X Z A + Right Shift
so guess what key combo they'll use for those
great-to-watch-but-impossible-to-do death moves....