Newbies - There is NO Foxhunting on this NG
kru...@my-deja.com
did NOT involve flaming SS and people on ASF.
Regretfully, I have come to the conclusion that there is no discussion of
Foxhunting on ASO.
Mr. Outfoxing (Ray), Foxhunting's creator, is the only person who is
posting about that method. Some times he gives theoretical examples, but not
much real-life detail. Despite his claim that he would focus on ASO, he
still posts to ASF instead of ASO.
There have been a couple of non-flame discussions about the advice Mr.
Outfoxing has given on ASF, but no reports from anyone else about its
effectiveness.
It seems that if anyone is using Foxhunting effectively, they are keeping
very quiet about it. So if you are a newbie looking for information, do not
be surprised if you have to look somewhere else.
As always, I will gladly reconsider this opinion if Foxhunting supporters
can show me where I have missed something in a non-flame reply.
Krupoff
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Outfoxing The Foxes
<----Anyone who needs my advice can post here or mail me through my
website. Most Foxhunters have no need to post because they no longer
need advice, and they have no interest in being flamed. It's true. I've
sold enough books that if there were serious problems with the method
they would have been publicized by now. Most men who post out here do so
looking for answers. Once they find them, they leave. It's really that
simple.
Outfoxing The Foxes: How To Seduce The Women Of Your Dreams
http://www.cybersheet.com/fox/index.html
The Revolution: Free Selections From The KING Of Internet Handicapping!
http://www.cybersheet.com/sportpix.html
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
James L. King III
<19990912.023704.-378861....@juno.com>, Outfoxing
The Foxes <outfoxxxxin...@juno.com> wrote:
> <----Anyone who needs my advice can post here or mail me through my
> website. Most Foxhunters have no need to post because they no longer
> need advice, and they have no interest in being flamed. It's true.
If it makes you feel better to say so, then go ahead.
> I've
> sold enough books that if there were serious problems with the method
> they would have been publicized by now.
Not according to your website. Only 746 visits have been recorded to
your order pages .. all of them -- national and international orders...
Outfoxing the Foxes, Charming Prince Charming, UFH ... and since you've
been so quick to point out how powerfully successful your "How To Break
Even at the Track" book is, then it must mean that Outfoxing The Foxes
is doing even more poorly than anyone has suspected.
If all of those people were looking for Outfoxing the Foxes, the
industry estimates would be close to 75 orders. I'm going to be
extremely generous and say that the book has probably had 250 orders.
That's 250 people out of the 3.5 billion or so males in the world.
Actually, that's a little unfair. Not everyone has a useful knowledge
of English. Since only about 30% of the world is fluent enough in
English to comprehend the book, then the ratio is 250 of 1,050,000,000.
Wait, that's still being unfair. Ray has made it so that internet
access is required to purchase his book (he has made no provision for
magazine or newspaper ads or direct mail catalogs, so the only way to
get ordering information is to have SOME form of internet access). And
according to Win Treese of openmarket.com, May 1999, there are
147,800,000 people worldwide with internet access. So the ratio is 250
of 125,630,000 people (the male market [app. 85%] of internet users).
That's still not accurate, though, because Ray's website cannot be
found on the search engines through common terms like "love"
"relationships" and "seduction." Ray's sole advertising has been one
mention in one article of Playboy Magazine (15,000,000 people) and
posts within Usenet newsgroups (Estimated Usenet population is about
3,000,000 people, so the gender percentage estimate drops that to
2,550,000. Assuming that these groups are exclusive (meaning no Usenet
newsgroup readers subscribe to Playboy) and that all Playboy
subscribers have internet access, then Ray has a potential market of
17,550,000 people.
However, this is STILL not accurate. Ray markets Outfoxing the Foxes
primarily to 3 newsgroups, alt.seduction.fast, alt.romance, and
alt.seduction.outfoxing. These three sites count for only a TINY
fraction of total usenet population. In fact, the only one that is
likely to be visited by any general Usenet user is alt.romance:
alt.seduction.fast's traffic is generated primarily from Ross Jeffries'
marketing on the web and through direct mail. According to RemarQ,
623,773 messages were propagated on its server (one of the most
complete in Usenet) September 11, 1999. Of those messages:
90 were from alt.romance
99 were from alt.seduction.fast
3 were from alt.seduction.outfoxing
These websites represent about three ten-thousandths of a percent of
the total Usenet traffic, and most of the publicity regarding Outfoxing
the Foxes.
So, Ray advertises to .00030780428% of the potential Usenet market:
approximately 900 people (making an assumption that every post came
from a unique user. This is of course, not accurate, but I am trying to
skew the numbers in Ray's favor.)
So, Ray has advertised to 15,000,900 people, and has achieved an
estimate of about 250 sales (according to web business experts). Which
amounts to a 0.000016665667% sales ratio. This is for all of his books.
The sales figures for Outfoxing the Foxes is likely to be lower.
The problems and inconsistencies that exist with the method have been
explained numerous times in the newsgroups the book is primarily
advertised to, especially alt.seduction.fast. There has been no need
for large scale publicity of the book's shortcomings because the book
has not had any large scale publicity outside of the mention in
Playboy, which did not materialize any appreciable increase in sales
for Outfoxing the Foxes.
Assuming that the percentages would remain the same (although they
would likely be lower, given that the targeted advertisers were more
likely to be interested in a book that has been promoted: "buy this
book and get laid"), then Ray can expect nationwide sales of about 4500
books total. That is assuming that he engages the public with an
advertising campaign which is more accessible than 3 low traffic sites
on Usenet rather than saturate his targeted advertising audience
further.
An additional note: Ross also has a valuable domain name which enhances
his marketing: www.seduction.com. Ray, on the other hand, hasn't even
bothered to create www.outfoxing.com or www.foxhunting.com, instead
relying on a site within www.cybersheet.com for his web marketing, a
fact which makes his website appear quite amateur to most web users.
James King
--
The days of old time radio drama come alive at http://www.shadowradio.org ...
As featured in Yahoo! Internet Life magazine August 1999.
Odious
Cobra wrote:
>
> I was one of the early purchasers of "Outfoxing the Foxes" and I have
> to say that I have never regretted the investment. I doubt if there is
> anyone who cannot benefit, to some degree, from a reading of the book.
> I was doing quite well before reading OtF, but incorporating some of
> Ray's ideas into my approach has been beneficial.
>
In what way, exactly? What original material of ray's have you found to
be useful and in what way?
> What did I learn? First, I learned that it is a waste of MY time to
> pursue anything but a real FOX--an elite or super elite.
Not wasting time on women you're not interested in is hardly an
innovation, and clearly is not ray's idea. In fact, pursuing only the
women you find attractive is something recommended by just about every
seduction resource I've ever seen. Have you ever seen anybody say it was
more time efficient to go after women you do not want?
> Life is too
> short. Then I learned that I am capable of attracting a real FOX if I
> spend sufficient time and effort to improve my CUPID rating.
Wasn't foxhunting supposed to be a zero effort method? Seems to me that
if you have to put so much time and effort into making yourself look
successful, smart, and hansome...it can't be a very effective method. It
would seem it is not the method winning a success, but the fact you went
to the gym to make yourself look good, which again is neither an
innovation nor ray's idea. If it was the method that worked, it wouldn't
matter how you look.
Rather like a doctor selling a cure all miracle drug that only works on
people who are already healthy.
> Lastly, I
> learned how FOXES think. This alone is worth the price of admission.
No, you learned how ray thinks women think. Every woman who I have
talked to, who's seen ray's page, says he is absolutely clueless when it
comes to understanding women. Also, ray admits to being bipolar, and it
has been clinically shown that people who are psychotic have an inability
to comprehend the normal thought processes of non psychotics. So I doubt
ray did you any favor by telling you how he believes women think.
> Is the book a magic bullet? No. Is SS? Of course not! As Ray has
> often said, the women who succomb to SS are NOT the Foxes sought by the
> consummate Foxhunter.
Ray is lying. The women who succumb to SS cross all walks of life. SS
works on women who want to feel pleasure. The foxes ray claims that his
material is aimed at not only desire pleasure, but actively pursue it as
a priority in their lives. The more pleasure a woman wants to feel, the
more effective SS is. It doesn't matter if she is a 6 or a 10.
The only women SS doesn't work on, are women who are closed off
emotionally and do not allow themselves to feel pleasure. Women who have
been so fucked over by guys like ray that they are bitter and now want
nothing more to do with relationships period. Unless you maintain that
foxhunters are going after these women, who are dead inside, then you are
wrong when you say SS won't work of the women foxhunters go after.
> The objective is totally different.
yes, SSers get laid by the women we want, when we want, on our terms.
Foxhunters sit and wait and hope we'll dump her so they can scavenge on
the rebound.
Here's a nice quote from ray, "If the guy she wants never marries her,
I'd have a very good shot with her."
> Ditto the
> "average" women sought by RDS. Foxhunting works! It won't turn a geek
> into a babe-magnet, but if you are having reasonable success, it will
> helpyou improve the quality of woman you date.
So it works as long as you are already achieving the goals it is supposed
to help one achieve. Again, sounds like a cure for the healthy.
> It may be the best thirty bucks I ever spent.
Not considering that you could have obtained all the useful information
contained in ray's book presented more concisely online for free. Or you
could have checked out James's list of resources ...5 or so all combined
totaling less than ray's book, and presenting a vastly superior pool of
information.
> Ignore it at your own peril!
LOL!!! If somebody said that to ray, he'd be screaming it was a death
threat.
--
Check out the brand new Spiffy Page:
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/burnaby/851
kru...@my-deja.com
Cobra <co...@clevelandfoxes.com> wrote:
> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> <html>
> I was one of the early purchasers of "Outfoxing the Foxes" and I have to
> is anyone who cannot benefit, to some degree, from a reading of the book.
> I was doing quite well before reading OtF, but incorporating some of Ray's
> ideas into my approach has been beneficial.
> to pursue anything but a real FOX--an elite or super elite. Life
> is too short. Then I learned that I am capable of attracting a real
> FOX if I spend sufficient time and effort to improve my CUPID rating.
> Lastly, I learned how FOXES think. This alone is worth the price
> of admission.
> <p>Is the book a magic bullet? No. Is SS? Of course not!
> As Ray has often said, the women who succomb to SS are NOT the Foxes sought
> Ditto the "average" women sought by RDS. Foxhunting works!
> It won't turn a geek into a babe-magnet, but if you are having reasonable
> success, it will helpyou improve the quality of woman you date.
> own peril!
> <p>Cobra
>Dear Cobra,
Thank you for the post. You have done a good job of re-stating some of
Foxhunting's broad assumptions, but what I am looking for is a little
different.
Could you please give some specific examples of how Foxhunting has worked
in real life, both successfully and, if applicable, unsuccessfully.
ASF contains both the merits and the limits of SS. I am hoping that
Foxhunters can stop with the flames and truly do the same for ASO.
Odious
Cobra wrote:
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Understand that Ray has not invented anything totally new here. There
> is nothing new under the sun!
Yes there is, there is innovation daily in a variety of areas of human
interest. Just because you stick you head in the sand and are unable to
adapt, that doesn't invalidate the advances.
> But doesn't this limit our scope
> considerably? The secret is to maneuver the Fox into making the first
> move.
It that not itself a first move, and thus a contradiction?
> As Ray states in Chapter one, most
> men are losers in the war of the sexes before they even begin.
> Obvious?
What a defeatist attitude. Don't even try, you've already lost. Just
settle for the current crap and try to make yourself as strong,
attractive, and rich as possible to conform to the current crap.
> I don't know many men who are truly in control of their love
> lives.
>
Hi, I'm Odious.
> Foxhunting can increase your odds of
> having the women of your dreams ...tremendously.
How?
> Read the sample chapters on his web site. If you can't tell he has
> something important to say from that then either you are so far beyond
> him that you don't need his help...
Well that would be the category SSers fit it.