Re: Quality Ademco engineering
Nomen Nescio
The 6160 is the replacement for the 6139 Alpha keypad, which is no longer
available. Only one tiny little problem: the 6160 doesn't work on older
Ademco panels. The workaround: replace the control panel as well as the
keypad. Or find a 6139 on your junkpile. Oops.
If you're using the 7845GSM radio, you may not have heard about the recall.
Early versions of the radio have a defective microprocessor. The radios
stop working after a while. A link to the recall notice is on the Alarmnet
website. Oops again.
Mark Leuck
"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:136ac37600b37b0d...@dizum.com...
> Here's a couple of interesting Ademco bugs you may not know about:
>
> The 6160 is the replacement for the 6139 Alpha keypad, which is no longer
> available. Only one tiny little problem: the 6160 doesn't work on older
> Ademco panels. The workaround: replace the control panel as well as the
> keypad. Or find a 6139 on your junkpile. Oops.
Which older panels? It works with all the panels the 6139 keypads worked
with
> If you're using the 7845GSM radio, you may not have heard about the
recall.
> Early versions of the radio have a defective microprocessor. The radios
> stop working after a while. A link to the recall notice is on the
Alarmnet
> website. Oops again.
Actually they had 2 recalls
Roland Moore
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:461c87c9$0$9955$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Nomen Nescio
>Which older panels? It works with all the panels the 6139 keypads worked
>with
You would think so, but you'd be wrong. The 6160 does not work on the
XMPT2.
The 6139 does. I'm guessing the XMP has the same problem, but I haven't
verified that.
The 6160 will display correctly, but the panel won't respond to keypad
data from a 6160.
Oops.
Eyeball Kid
see my earlier post regarding CO detectors on a zone expander
(my B**** list for Ademco/Vinegarpit is two pages long and I give to
everyone from the company I meet)
Mark Leuck
As far as I know the XMP wouldn't work with either 6139 or 6160 anyway. And
I don't consider that much of an oops when the vast majority of the later
stuff will, I've run into maybe 1 XMPT2's in my life.
Now if it was say the original Vista-10 I'd agree
Milhouse Van Houten
>Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> Here's a couple of interesting Ademco bugs you may not know about:
>>
>> The 6160 is the replacement for the 6139 Alpha keypad, which is no longer
>> available. Only one tiny little problem: the 6160 doesn't work on older
>> Ademco panels. The workaround: replace the control panel as well as the
>> keypad. Or find a 6139 on your junkpile. Oops.
>>
>> If you're using the 7845GSM radio, you may not have heard about the recall.
>> Early versions of the radio have a defective microprocessor. The radios
>> stop working after a while. A link to the recall notice is on the Alarmnet
>> website. Oops again.
>>
>
>see my earlier post regarding CO detectors on a zone expander
That is not a bug.. It's a well documented incompatibility. In fact,
on the ADI site (Webtech, and ordering site, it states right next to
the part number * not for CO use*) So if you missed that - you're the
bug. 2 wire smokes can not be used on expanders either - is that a
bug too?
>(my B**** list for Ademco/Vinegarpit is two pages long and I give to
>everyone from the company I meet)
Your what list? Bassshit list? Post the vinegar here and let the
experts analyze your 'list'. I'll bet most can be crossed off because
you didn't RTFM.
J Barnes
James B
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:461ee6e1$0$5625$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Nomen Nescio
>As far as I know the XMP wouldn't work with either 6139 or 6160 anyway. And
>I don't consider that much of an oops when the vast majority of the later
>stuff will, I've run into maybe 1 XMPT2's in my life.
The 4140XMPT2 was the predecessor of the Vista 50. There are lots of them
in the field. From what J. Barnes says, the 6160 doesn't work with the
Vista 50 either. They work fine with a 6139.
The 6139 keypads work fine with the 4140XMP panels. They also work with
the Vista 40. I'm guessing neither one works with the 6160.
I have two complaints here. First, backward compatibility is a pretty
obvious thing to do. But my main bitch is, none of these problems are
mentioned in the instructions. You don't find out about them until it's
time to replace a keypad, and then, oh shit, they gave me a bad keypad. Oh
no they idn't, the keypad is fine.
Make that three complaints. The fine engineering staff at Ademco still
hasn't figured out a way to copy a program from an older panel type to a
newer panel type. So when you have to replace that bad keypad with a 6160,
you find that means you get to replace the panel too, and you have to
program the new panel from scratch. None of the program information from
that XMPT2 can be copied to the new Vista 50P you have to install, even
though the programs are very similar.
How to waste an entire day on what was supposed to be replacing a bad
keypad.
Mark Leuck
> Mark Leuck wrote:
>
> >As far as I know the XMP wouldn't work with either 6139 or 6160 anyway.
And
> >I don't consider that much of an oops when the vast majority of the later
> >stuff will, I've run into maybe 1 XMPT2's in my life.
>
> The 4140XMPT2 was the predecessor of the Vista 50. There are lots of them
> in the field. From what J. Barnes says, the 6160 doesn't work with the
> Vista 50 either. They work fine with a 6139.
>
> The 6139 keypads work fine with the 4140XMP panels. They also work with
> the Vista 40. I'm guessing neither one works with the 6160.
>
> I have two complaints here. First, backward compatibility is a pretty
> obvious thing to do. But my main bitch is, none of these problems are
> mentioned in the instructions. You don't find out about them until it's
> time to replace a keypad, and then, oh shit, they gave me a bad keypad.
Oh
> no they idn't, the keypad is fine.
Yes but how far back do you go? Neither of those keypads will work on say a
4110XM/DL or a 4140XMP. Your scenario isn't going to happen very often and
while it isn't a good thing when it does it's likely better to replace the
panel anyway
>
> Make that three complaints. The fine engineering staff at Ademco still
> hasn't figured out a way to copy a program from an older panel type to a
> newer panel type. So when you have to replace that bad keypad with a
6160,
> you find that means you get to replace the panel too, and you have to
> program the new panel from scratch. None of the program information from
> that XMPT2 can be copied to the new Vista 50P you have to install, even
> though the programs are very similar.
True but it's not that hard to save and print the old info out and download
it into the new panel
> How to waste an entire day on what was supposed to be replacing a bad
> keypad.
That I can't argue with
Crash Gordon
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:461f24e4$0$24736$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Robert L Bass
> engineering staff at Ademco still hasn't
> figured out a way to copy a program
> from an older panel type to a newer
It's the same with most manufacturers.
One reason is the newer panels may
have a totally different EEPROM map.
It's far easier to ensure that all fields
are correct if they require you to write
the replacement panel's program from
scratch.
I've been involved in software development
for alarm control panels. With each model
there's a different EEPROM map. In
laymen's terms, the programmer develops
a schema to fit data items where they belong
in the EEMPROM map, limit the values that
can be entered for each data point, compare
each value with related values, etc.
It's a fairly complicated task error checking
all data entered for one specific model. To
make the data portable to newer version
releases is slightly more complex but doable.
Once you decide to go beyond that to making
an account file portable to entirely different
models things get much more complicated.
This is especially so if the newer model has
data points and options which didn't exist on
the previous model or (far worse) if it has
more stringent limits on certain data. It can
be done but the software becomes significantly
more expensive to develop. Given the
competitive nature of the marketplace, most
manufacturers are not inclined to increase
their costs when they can simply lay the
extra burden on installers.
> How to waste an entire day on what was
> supposed to be replacing a bad keypad.
Honeywell's (nee: Ademco's) Myweb Tech
website has documentation listing compatibility
of each keypad, panel and accessory.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Roland
"Crash Gordon" <webm...@siriussystems.invalid> wrote in message
news:461f273d$0$511$815e...@news.qwest.net...
Crash Gordon
advanced math or counting little blinking leds :-)
"Roland" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:46200056$0$1429$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Mark Leuck
"Crash Gordon" <webm...@siriussystems.invalid> wrote in message
news:461f273d$0$511$815e...@news.qwest.net...
Crash Gordon
police panic though.
You still have 1812s?...man they is olde. I still have 1512's out there
working fine.
Who can afford 7760 keypads anyway?...but the are slick lookin'
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46202b90$0$24781$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Mark Leuck
of to see if you'd say something like "Er okay thats too old"
"Crash Gordon" <webm...@siriussystems.invalid> wrote in message
news:46202dfa$0$503$815e...@news.qwest.net...
Milhouse Van Houten
>It was a joke, I picked the latest keypad with the oldest DMP panel I knew
>of to see if you'd say something like "Er okay thats too old"
And he said it would work.
Crash Gordon
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4620361d$0$16693$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Tommy
Take that bragging about you're "gear" to alt.mystuff or whever it is you
talk about that crap.
"Roland" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:46200056$0$1429$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Nomen Nescio
>It's the same with most manufacturers.
>One reason is the newer panels may
>have a totally different EEPROM map.
>It's far easier to ensure that all fields
>are correct if they require you to write
>the replacement panel's program from
>scratch.
I understand the difficulty in trying to map every field of the old panel
to the new panel. But lots of information stays the same. Receiver
format, receiver phone number, zone types and alpha descriptions all stay
the same. Even the field numbers are the same, in some cases. If they
would copy the obvious stuff, I wouledn't mind filling in the blanks now
and then.
This problem will eventually come up with every programmable panel in the
field today. They'll all need replacing eventually, and when they do, the
old panel will be obsolete, no longer available. Even if you use the same
brand, it means reprogramming the whole panel. That isn't so bad for an
eight zone system. Replace a 60 zone panel and it is a lot of extra work.
>Honeywell's (nee: Ademco's) Myweb Tech
>website has documentation listing compatibility
>of each keypad, panel and accessory.
That's the problem: the info is wrong. The website says the 4140XMPT2 is
compatible with the 6160. It isn't. Ademco documentation is poor.
Robert L Bass
"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message news:75aac47eb9320f5d...@dizum.com...
> Robert L. Bass wrote:
>
>>It's the same with most manufacturers.
>>One reason is the newer panels may
>>have a totally different EEPROM map.
>>It's far easier to ensure that all fields
>>are correct if they require you to write
>>the replacement panel's program from
>>scratch.
>
> I understand the difficulty in trying to map every field of the old panel
> to the new panel. But lots of information stays the same. Receiver
> format, receiver phone number, zone types and alpha descriptions all stay
> the same. Even the field numbers are the same, in some cases. If they
> would copy the obvious stuff, I wouledn't mind filling in the blanks now
> and then.
Agreed. One other problem is that EEPROM real estate is always at a premium. As a result, manufacturers frequently find it
necessary to shift the addresses of data points when designing new panels. This is rarely so when a new version of the same panel
so in those cases it is usually easy to transfer the data.
> This problem will eventually come up with
> every programmable panel in the field today.
> They'll all need replacing eventually, and
> when they do, the old panel will be obsolete,
> no longer available. Even if you use the
> same brand, it means reprogramming the
> whole panel. That isn't so bad for an eight
> zone system. Replace a 60 zone panel
> and it is a lot of extra work.
You're absolutely right about that. There
is one manufacturer that has sort of addressed
the problem -- Edwards. I know because I
was involved in designing their software.
The downloader employs an XML schema to
define every aspect of the data. Although the
design was originally intended only to
facilitate rapid deployment of future models
it lends itself to solving this problem. The
app as written does not specifically address
panel upgrades. However, it would be far
easier to write an add-on routine to enable
it because none of the panel characteristics
are hard-coded into the app. Everything is
in the XML schema.
>> Honeywell's (nee: Ademco's) Myweb Tech
>> website has documentation listing compatibility
>> of each keypad, panel and accessory.
>
> That's the problem: the info is wrong. The
> website says the 4140XMPT2 is compatible
> with the 6160. It isn't. Ademco documentation
> is poor.
That stinks. I hadn't run across that before
since I've not had occasion to provide a new
keypad for one of those.
I just ran up against a related Napco foul-up.
Due to the new DST parameters, Napco offers
upgrade chips. Their tech support assured me
that the new chip for the P3200 would work
fine for a customer's Version 11. When he
tried it though, it did not work at all. I called
tech support again and was told it muyst be
a bad chip. I sent the client a replacement
chip. Same problem. This time I called and
got a different tech support guy. He informed
me that version 11 is *not* upgradable.
%^&$^!
I gave the customer a refund, sent a call tag
to pick up the useless chip and thought mean
thoughts about Napco. :^)
Seccon1
the Honeywell Security website.
Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list, Please use it as it was put there
for you.
as to the recall we actually had a field fix but did not like trusting it to
field personnel so we changed the boards.
Remember please we did not sun set the analog service, your Congress did.
And to help with the problem with offer a rebate for the old units as well
as competitive products
It may interest you to know that on a national Beta test that ended 2 weeks
ago, another GSM product was shipped to dealers all over the country. Of the
75 units shipped, less than half were installed and registered as the
dealers agreed they would.
Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms and
basements.
But then everyone wants it sooner, and they do not want any problems once
they get it.
I guess Nomen flipped my switch as every day I and my team members receive
calls from many folks that don't care enough to even read a manual and feel
they are just entitled to be walked through whatever, and then want to abuse
us when lack of preparation on their part causes an issue. I drive to
jobsites and training appointments every weekday, typically 4 days (and
nights) out each week and the guys that put this stuff in on the vast
majority have no previous training or even entry level education to prepare
them for the job. The I read here how it is the manufacturer's fault.
Guess I will catch some grief for responding but hey, I have writen the
truth about how I feel.
"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:e17e5a599bf57c98...@dizum.com...
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>Please see compatible list/ Non compatible list on web link My Webtech at
>the Honeywell Security website.
>
>Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list, Please use it as it was put there
>for you.
actually according to:
https://library.ademconet.com/MyWebTech/MyWebTech.aspx?an=ct&pn1=4140XMPT2&an1=dp
the 6160 is listed as compatible. I've never run across a 4140xmp2,
but a 4140xmp works with the 6160 if you address the keypad as "00".
>as to the recall we actually had a field fix but did not like trusting it to
>field personnel so we changed the boards.
>Remember please we did not sun set the analog service, your Congress did.
>And to help with the problem with offer a rebate for the old units as well
>as competitive products
>
>It may interest you to know that on a national Beta test that ended 2 weeks
>ago, another GSM product was shipped to dealers all over the country. Of the
>75 units shipped, less than half were installed and registered as the
>dealers agreed they would.
I don't remember getting an invitation.
>Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms and
>basements.
Or sold on Ebay!
>But then everyone wants it sooner, and they do not want any problems once
>they get it.
>
>I guess Nomen flipped my switch as every day I and my team members receive
>calls from many folks that don't care enough to even read a manual and feel
>they are just entitled to be walked through whatever, and then want to abuse
>us when lack of preparation on their part causes an issue. I drive to
>jobsites and training appointments every weekday, typically 4 days (and
>nights) out each week and the guys that put this stuff in on the vast
>majority have no previous training or even entry level education to prepare
>them for the job. The I read here how it is the manufacturer's fault.
>
>Guess I will catch some grief for responding but hey, I have writen the
>truth about how I feel.
I'd had really good luck with the support department for the last few
years. I remember it used to be a huge hold time, but that improved.
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>As far as I know the XMP wouldn't work with either 6139 or 6160 anyway.
Then how were they originally hand programmed?
The 6160 works with the XMP - but in non-supervised mode.
Robert L Bass
> Please use it as it was put there for
I use the MyWeb Tech site all the time.
It's one of the best resources online (well,
other than my own website that is).
> I guess Nomen flipped my switch as every
> day I and my team members receive calls
> from many folks that don't care enough to
> even read a manual and feel they are just
> entitled to be walked through whatever, and
> then want to abuse us when lack of
> preparation on their part causes an issue.
> I drive to jobsites and training appointments
> every weekday, typically 4 days (and nights)
> out each week and the guys that put this
> stuff in on the vast majority have no previous
> training or even entry level education to
> prepare them for the job. The I read here
> how it is the manufacturer's fault.
What?!? No college degree? Whatever you
do, don't use the word, primate. It makes
some people go bananas. :^) [private joke]
> Guess I will catch some grief for
> responding but hey, I have writen the truth about how I feel.
Grief comes with the territory. You
sometimes need a thick skin in this
newsgroup but it's not all that bad.
It's nice to have someone from the
manufacturing side post. I hope you'll
stick around and continue to participate.
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>> Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list,
>> Please use it as it was put there for
>> you...
>
>I use the MyWeb Tech site all the time.
>It's one of the best resources online (well,
>other than my own website that is).
It is a nice resource. It's intended for industry pros that buy stuff
through distribution. You seem to thing it's okay to dole out the
login credentials to everyone.
>> I guess Nomen flipped my switch as every
>> day I and my team members receive calls
>> from many folks that don't care enough to
>> even read a manual and feel they are just
>> entitled to be walked through whatever, and
>> then want to abuse us when lack of
>> preparation on their part causes an issue.
>> I drive to jobsites and training appointments
>> every weekday, typically 4 days (and nights)
>> out each week and the guys that put this
>> stuff in on the vast majority have no previous
>> training or even entry level education to
>> prepare them for the job. The I read here
>> how it is the manufacturer's fault.
>
>What?!? No college degree? Whatever you
>do, don't use the word, primate. It makes
>some people go bananas. :^) [private joke]
He didn't say anything about a college degree. I suspect he's up to
his eyeballs from calls resulting in your non-existing support from
end-users. That makes MY hold time longer, and I do read the manuals.
>> Guess I will catch some grief for
>> responding but hey, I have writen the truth about how I feel.
>
>Grief comes with the territory. You
>sometimes need a thick skin in this
>newsgroup but it's not all that bad.
>It's nice to have someone from the
>manufacturing side post. I hope you'll
>stick around and continue to participate.
I hope he will tell his boss to change the MyWebTech login to
individual users, and report you for theft.
Mark Leuck
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
news:fkc5231pg4aor93pt...@4ax.com...
> Seccon1 wrote:
>
> >Please see compatible list/ Non compatible list on web link My Webtech at
> >the Honeywell Security website.
> >
> >Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list, Please use it as it was put
there
> >for you.
>
> actually according to:
>
https://library.ademconet.com/MyWebTech/MyWebTech.aspx?an=ct&pn1=4140XMPT2&an1=dp
>
> the 6160 is listed as compatible. I've never run across a 4140xmp2,
> but a 4140xmp works with the 6160 if you address the keypad as "00".
The XMPT2 would have to have the keypads addressed like a Vista-40
> >It may interest you to know that on a national Beta test that ended 2
weeks
> >ago, another GSM product was shipped to dealers all over the country. Of
the
> >75 units shipped, less than half were installed and registered as the
> >dealers agreed they would.
>
> I don't remember getting an invitation.
I got that invitation, I've still got the beta products which still work
fine
Mark Leuck
"Robert L Bass" <no-sales-spam@bassburglaralarms> wrote in message
news:goqdnXfQLcFmUb_b...@comcast.com...
> > Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list,
> > Please use it as it was put there for
> > you...
>
> I use the MyWeb Tech site all the time.
> It's one of the best resources online
Yes and so do the people who you publicly gave the login to
Mark Leuck
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
You can program the XMP with a fixed english keypad, there are no menus that
require an alpha
I brive a dus
Easy there rhino your department is very much appreciated here in my
neck of the woods, and anyone from your company who has ever visited
my office can attest to being treated with the utmost of respect and
gratitude.
Your comment about reading the manuals is amusing though. The manuals
are authored by ENGINEERS and the language used would make the
Professor from Gilligan's Island punch drunk. After 5 minutes of
thumbing through a Vista manual I'm usually fatigued from reading how
many jellywatts, ohmtags, and jigavolts are needed to remove the
carbon from the valves on a partially passive ionic defibrulating
oscillator when using 46/13 semi insulted, 1/4 shielded, unswept cable
in an enviroment with humidity levels greater than that of an open air
stadium in Tibet on an overcast morning in May of any leap year but
less than that of the armpits belonging to a 56yr old hobo traveling
southbound on a Greyhound bus in Alabama during the Pecan Festival.
Write them in English and then you won't receive as many calls.
> Guess I will catch some grief for responding but hey, I have writen the
> truth about how I feel. <
What grief are you going to catch? You have a right to your opinion
and tough shit on anyone who doesn't agree with you.
Roland Moore
> Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms and
> basements.
Okay, so now you want them all back?
>I drive to
> jobsites and training appointments every weekday, typically 4 days (and
> nights) out each week and the guys that put this stuff in on the vast
> majority have no previous training or even entry level education to
> prepare them for the job. The I read here how it is the manufacturer's
> fault.
As long as any manufacturer makes their products available through
distribution, then the trunk slammer headaches you describe are going to be
the result. If you want to see the quality of techs using your brand
improve, there are many things you could do on your end. Some companies like
Bosch, DMP, Verint, (to name just a few) refuse to sell their product to
anyone that has not PASSED (not just attended) a training course on the
product. Another technique used by companies that have product available
through distribution (like American Dynamics) is to offer a better discount
level on the product to companies that send their employees to training. I
know that you have training, I have not been to effective Honeywell Security
training; comparing it to other vendor's training. In many cases the
training seemed far more sales oriented than technical. There are more ways
than these to help solve the tech problem for sure, but until I see at least
ONE being tried by your company I find it hard to believe Honeywell Security
is being proactive or even serious about your complaints. The fear of
declining sales or market share erosion seems to stop any real action on
addressing the problem. To me this problem you describe remains firmly the
manufacturer's fault. Reason? NOT ALL MANUFACTURERS HAVE THIS PROBLEM. ONLY
THE ONES THAT CATER TO THE TRUNK SLAMMER MARKET DO, LIKE HONEYWELL SECURITY
AND DSC.
"Seccon1" <sec...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:W1yUh.52$013...@newsfe03.lga...
Seccon1
"Roland Moore" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:46230f60$0$16743$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
>> Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms
>> and
>> basements.
>
> Okay, so now you want them all back?
No, I just would like professionals to keep their word or not give it.
>
> >I drive to
>> jobsites and training appointments every weekday, typically 4 days (and
>> nights) out each week and the guys that put this stuff in on the vast
>> majority have no previous training or even entry level education to
>> prepare them for the job. The I read here how it is the manufacturer's
>> fault.
>
> As long as any manufacturer makes their products available through
> distribution, then the trunk slammer headaches you describe are going to
> be the result. If you want to see the quality of techs using your brand
So why does Bosch sell sensors through distribution, It's been a while since
I installed Radionics (Bar Reader Programmer 5100 I believe, panels we used
were 8012, 8112, ) but they sold a Fire DACT called the Notifier 911 (Not to
be confused with the Moose 911) So that is one thing you are Wrong about.
> improve, there are many things you could do on your end. Some companies
> like Bosch, DMP, Verint, (to name just a few) refuse to sell their product
> to anyone that has not PASSED (not just attended) a training course on the
Bull, I sat through Joe Lamontange's classes in Atlanta and if your techs
could not pass the class they still got the pretty little certificate. All
your company had to do was send folks to Marrietta GA, (Roy Thurston was the
rep. then and if you could not attend but Radionics wanted your business
bad enough they would send you Jim Kelly's video instead.
Please, you clearly do not know what your preferred vender does.
> product. Another technique used by companies that have product available
> through distribution (like American Dynamics) is to offer a better
> discount level on the product to companies that send their employees to
> training. I know that you have training, I have not been to effective
> Honeywell Security
I do not know what ADI Expo class limited to 2 hours you have attended and
called it a technical training but I will stack any training presentation
and material that we provide against whatever is available.
Unlike others here, I will not pretend to be "All Knowing" But I have
installed, serviced, run a CS, worked for manufacturers (through 4
acquisitions) and distribution. I doubt seriously you can teach me much
little man!
> training; comparing it to other vendor's training. In many cases the
> training seemed far more sales oriented than technical. There are more
> ways than these to help solve the tech problem for sure, but until I see
> at least ONE being tried by your company I find it hard to believe
> Honeywell Security is being proactive or even serious about your
> complaints. The fear of declining sales or market share erosion seems to
> stop any real action on addressing the problem. To me this problem you
> describe remains firmly the manufacturer's fault. Reason? NOT ALL
> MANUFACTURERS HAVE THIS PROBLEM. ONLY THE ONES THAT CATER TO THE TRUNK
> SLAMMER MARKET DO, LIKE HONEYWELL SECURITY AND DSC.
What accredited tech school program specifically supports this industry?
Besides the program through Lincoln Technical Ins. (5 campus locations)
there is no place that and individual can go to specificly learn this
industry. Even the CEDIA approved EST program does not equip. the average
tech. But every year, owners with attitudes much like yours throw the new
hires to the job and say "here is the manual". Please, give me a break, I
taught a class to a dealer just today that had the Bosch Logo everywhere and
had to cover closed loop, open loop, series and parallel circuits and the
difference between dry contacts and open collector outputs. Where were the
superior, truck equiped techs then.
Give me a break, My cow died, so I don't need your bull.
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
You can also program it with a 6160. I did it. I still remember the
asshole's home address. You can ask your bud @ P1 support, he helped
me do it.
Jim
Years and years ago, I used Ademco equipment but stopped using them
because of their poor documentation. Equipment was ok, it's just that
the documentation was written beginning to end with no index or even a
table of contents. If you wanted to change a particular item in the
programing, if you weren't totally familiar with the panel, you had to
start reading from the beginning of the instructions to find out the
particulars on a specific programing point or call and wait on hold
for tech support. Not even a frickin glossary of terms. Back then,
Napco had an alphabetical list of programing points and even the
numerical locations in the program, a table of contents and index..
Never used Ademco again unless it was a takeover.
Jim
I'm gonna give ya a little hint.
You're in the wrong group to cop an attitude.
I'd suggest that you step back, take a deep breath and read some the
the history of this Newsgroup ..... then decide if you're ready to
take on the reprecussions. In spite of what you think are credible
credentials in this industry, if that's all you've got, you're in over
your head already.
It's just a suggestion ..... take it or leave it.
Robert L Bass
through distribution. I know because I carry over 1,000 Bosch products online and I've never attended their classes. I can't sell
some of their high end video stuff or their control panels. Those are Bosch dealer only. It's not a problem though. With
literally hundreds of manufacturers willing to sell to us, our selection is growing faster than an OT thread in ASA. :^)
I think it's unfair and demeaning to call everyone who doesn't sell proprietary systems trunk slammers. Only Tom Fowler, Graham
Morgan and I have received official certification as Trunk Slammers. The rest are mere Van Bumpers. Kindly remember that next time
you post.
For the rest of you non-certified folk out there, please register in advance for classes at next year's EH Expo. I will be giving
classes in Beginning and Advanced Trunk Slamming while down the hall Mr. Fowler will hold classes in Advanced Counter Top
installation, Door Knocking 101 and (for already certified TS1 card holders) Free System Sales 203. The FSS-203 class does have a
prerequisite of at least 6 credits in Automatic Renewal, Multi-Year Commitment and/or Beer Binge 201. ADT Authorized Dealers are of
course eligible to take the advanced placement test due to "Life Experience".
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
"Seccon1" <sec...@charter.net> wrote in message news:agVUh.1335$QH3...@newsfe12.lga...
Robert L Bass
> Counter Top installation, Door Knocking
> 101 and (for already certified TS1 card
> holders) Free System Sales 203. The
> FSS-203 class does have a prerequisite
> of at least 6 credits in Automatic Renewal,
> Multi-Year Commitment and/or Beer Binge
I forgot to mention that all graduates will
receive a free tank top with their first name
inscribed in Sharpie on the front and the
famed Trunk Slammer Incorporated logo
emblazoned across the back. A sample of
the logo is available here:
http://tinyurl.com/2e4z5y
Seccon1
about 8 or 9 years ago in this group when I responded to the Clock issue on
the Z1100 and got chewed out there was plenty of attitude to go around.
I don't write every nite as many here do and as I have stated in the past
many of the answers that are posted are accurate so when the point is made,
I see no reason to go on and on.
Furthermore, I don't dig up personal crap on fellow posters as I have seen
done here for years. Sometimes, I do get good feedback from this group and I
have passed it on to whomever I worked for at the time whether it was Wade
Moose, David Steele, (Moose Products), Ken Boyda (Sentrol then Interlogix)
or now with the product managers of Honeywell.
As to coping an attitude, well when you see erroneous information posted
about your company (Nomen's post that we do not notify folks about
compatibility) well it just flipped a switch.
and when someone gave their opinion that our organization essentially causes
the problem. I simply gave an opinion.
Seems like years ago I contributed copies of the Scantronic Products to the
Library Jim,
Seems like I also wrote a letter years ago when Ademco wanted to stop the
distribution of Ademco manuals on Tech Man
Don't remember anyone not wanting my input then.
So, Can anyone complain and Lie here or is some special requirement needed?
"Jim" <alar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1176776511.6...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>I think it's unfair and demeaning to call everyone who doesn't sell proprietary systems trunk slammers. Only Tom Fowler, Graham
>Morgan and I have received official certification as Trunk Slammers.
Get fucked...
Don't include me in your little jokes, I find you despicable. Quit
trying to usurp the NG for your own personal gain and try to get along
with the group and maybe I'll joke around.
You do it with every post as of late. You play stupid as in:
Message-ID: <1qKdnVWXE7nuLr7b...@comcast.com>
While the OP has no clue of what you're up to, every regular does.
You're trying to establish banter so you can swing a sale, right?
Damn You Robert. Why can't you just play by the rules?
You are a manipulator. You have severe personality flaws too.
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>So, Can anyone complain and Lie here or is some special requirement needed?
Anyone can do it.
There is a merit badge for lying on Bass Level, no one has attained
it.
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>Your comment about reading the manuals is amusing though. The manuals
>are authored by ENGINEERS and the language used would make the
>Professor from Gilligan's Island punch drunk. After 5 minutes of
>thumbing through a Vista manual I'm usually fatigued from reading how
>many jellywatts, ohmtags, and jigavolts are needed to remove the
>carbon from the valves on a partially passive ionic defibrulating
>oscillator when using 46/13 semi insulted, 1/4 shielded, unswept cable
>in an enviroment with humidity levels greater than that of an open air
>stadium in Tibet on an overcast morning in May of any leap year but
>less than that of the armpits belonging to a 56yr old hobo traveling
>southbound on a Greyhound bus in Alabama during the Pecan Festival.
>Write them in English and then you won't receive as many calls.
They are not that complicated. They display the information as
concise as can be. I've become so familiar with them I can flip to
the section easily. But I guess if it's not your brand it's easy to
be frustrated. Napco manuals still defy logic for me, but I suppose
Jim can flip to the page quickly and absorb it.
Mark Leuck
You expect us to remember 8 or 9 years ago when most here can't remember
what they did last week?
Mark Leuck
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
That may be the case but a 6160 isn't needed and you can program just as
well with a fixed english like it's little brother the 4120XM.
Which bud at P1? They've only had a few hundred people in and out of tech
support in the past 10 years
Nomen Nescio
>As to coping an attitude, well when you see erroneous information posted
>about your company (Nomen's post that we do not notify folks about
>compatibility) well it just flipped a switch.
What I said was accurate.
Go to MyWebTech and type 4140XMPT2 into the search box. Then click on
Keypads to get a list of compatible keypads. You will find the 6160 listed
as compatible. It isn't. It doesn't work with address 00 or 01. The 6160
instructions don't mention the problem either.
I think it's pretty stupid to build a keypad to replace the 6139, and not
make it emulate a 6139.
I don't expect perfection, but I at least expect some sort of attempt to
inform customers of compatibility issues. Otherwise those of us in the
field waste time and money screwing around with problems that are not our
fault.
And as Jim said earlier, Ademco manuals are poor quality. After all these
years, you guys still haven't figured out how to make an index. All you do
is have a computer compile a list of keywords. That's not an index.
Here's a couple examples I pulled out of the Vista-50P index. These are
just examples, not specific complaints. In the index, no entries for:
Compass
Downloading (except for a couple of program entries)
Direct wire downloading
Clock
Set clock
Test timer
Timer test
Zone expander
Roland Moore
I wish manufacturers would take that message to heart. I been buried by
their broken promises.
> I installed Radionics (Bar Reader Programmer 5100 I believe, panels we
> used were 8012, 8112, ) but they sold a Fire DACT called the Notifier 911
> (Not to be confused with the Moose 911) So that is one thing you are Wrong
> about.
Well I was talking about today and not when dinosaurs walked the Earth. For
the record the D8012 used the 5000 programmer and it would "hang" on the
panel. It used a 5010 to burn customer text into PROM chips. There were only
eight zones and a few lines of programming.
The D8112 version E, G, G1, G2 used the 5100 (Wanda) programmer. More zones,
POPITS, RAM II etc. More training was needed then, but there were still
fewer options that the current G series panels. On G series you can use a
5200 programmer but most BCSDs use RPS.
G series panels do require 3 day training. And yes Joe Lamontange still
teaches it. I have found him to be a good instructor. Joe has been with
Bosch so long that even though he is a bit of a maverick, Bosch still puts
up with him (unlike his ex wives). Dean Kugler is a good instructor too. No
matter what happened in the days of the 5100 programmer, there are enough
folks that want to be Bosch dealers today that watching a video would cut it
for training. You can get certified on the new easy series panels by going
on line, but not much else.
>Please, give me a break, I
> taught a class to a dealer just today that had the Bosch Logo everywhere
> and had to cover closed loop, open loop, series and parallel circuits and
> the difference between dry contacts and open collector outputs. Where were
> the superior, truck equipped techs then.
>
> Give me a break, My cow died, so I don't need your bull.
I don't need yours either. If a BCSD was getting training on your gear, I'd
bet he hadn't met his quota and had the "boot" letter from Bosh in his files
already, especially if he was as lame as you claim. Honeywell is just his
back up hump, you know just like every whore has. What gear do you have that
Bosch doesn't? Let me see Bosch has the entire BVIP line. Where are your
video encoders? Or yes, the DVM that looks like re-branded Axis maybe, just
like the re-branded Mercury panels? Oh wait, you have to be a NexWatch guy
and get trained I bet! And Northern Computers Access Control? Yes there is a
priceless piece of gear to go with the rest of the NexWatch stuff. DVM edge
encoding? Yes. Edge recording? Nope! ANR? No again. Even your top of the
line stuff is bottom of the barrel.
This industry is moving in an IT direction. Although it is important to know
basic electronics, a good understanding of IT is becoming very important as
well. Those type classes are available at most community colleges as well as
the training in basic electronics important to the alarm industry.
"Seccon1" <sec...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:agVUh.1335$QH3...@newsfe12.lga...
Robert L Bass
>> see erroneous information posted about
>> your company (Nomen's post that we do
>> not notify folks about compatibility) well
>> it just flipped a switch.
>
> What I said was accurate.
>
> Go to MyWebTech and type 4140XMPT2
> into the search box. Then click on Keypads
> to get a list of compatible keypads. You
> will find the 6160 listed as compatible. It
> isn't. It doesn't work with address 00 or 01.
> The 6160 instructions don't mention the
> problem either.
The information is there. Each of the
compatible devices is a clickable link.
Here's what you get when you click on
6160.
"Newer models of this keypad, as of 2004,
may not be compatible. They will give the
correct status display, but will not send
commands to the panel. If replacing or
adding a new keypad, use a different model
keypad that is compatible, or it may be an
option to upgrade the control. 2-line alpha
keypad that must be assigned to an address
in *93 device programming."
I think you owe the gentleman an apology.
> I think it's pretty stupid to build a keypad
> to replace the 6139, and not make it
> emulate a 6139.
Apparently either it was decided not to
continue supporting the 4140XMPT2 or
upon discovering the issue they decided
not to fix it. It's not as though the
4140XMPT2 is a big seller.
> I don't expect perfection, but I at least expect
> some sort of attempt to inform customers of
> compatibility issues. Otherwise those of us
> in the field waste time and money screwing
> around with problems that are not our fault...
I found the compatibility issue explained with
a single mouse click.
> And as Jim said earlier, Ademco manuals
> are poor quality...
That's an industry-wide issue. Honeywell
has no corner on poor tech writing. While
writing a help system for Edwards' FireShield
control panels, I wanted to incorporate the
installation manuals in the help system. I
found the manuals so poorly written that I
offered to rewrite them (for a fee). The
manuals had already been submitted to UL
so changing them at that point was not an
option.
> After all these years, you guys still haven't
> figured out how to make an index. All you do
> is have a computer compile a list of keywords...
That's standard procedure when writing tech
manuals in programs like Word. After each
chapter is written the author goes through the
text and marks words that need to be indexed.
When the doc is finished, Word creates the
index file automatically. It's done that way for
good reason. During the creation of a tech
manual images may get inserted after the text,
causing changes in pagination. Text can also
be added, edited or deleted at any time with
the same result. Without automation the
entire index would have to be rewritten every
time a manual is revised.
Mark Leuck
Keep in mind that the Vista-50P is a lot older than Compass, I can't think
of a manufacturer that mentions much about the downloading software in any
panel installation manual
> Direct wire downloading
> Clock
> Set clock
All three of these are in the table of contents
> Test timer
> Timer test
> Zone expander
They have some mention of timers but the zone expansion is also mentioned in
the table of contents
Frank Olson
And yet when I click "custom display" on the Napco LCD keypad, I can't
find any mention of being able to program more than 16 characters per
line, yet you say you've done it.
>
> I think you owe the gentleman an apology.
Oh give me a break. Who the hell are you anyway??
> That's an industry-wide issue. Honeywell
> has no corner on poor tech writing. While
> writing a help system for Edwards' FireShield
> control panels, I wanted to incorporate the
> installation manuals in the help system. I
> found the manuals so poorly written that I
> offered to rewrite them (for a fee). The
> manuals had already been submitted to UL
> so changing them at that point was not an
> option.
The "help system" you "wrote" used a "canned overlay". All you did was
"fill in the blanks" with nonsense like MarkStepFather, etc. And you
landed this job because your sister called you in.
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>Which bud at P1? They've only had a few hundred people in and out of tech
>support in the past 10 years
I forgot his name, it was 2 years ago , he's not doing 1st level calls
(as I imagine you don't either). He has a foreign sounding name and
he said he still talks to you every couple of months (well 2 years ago
anyway). He knew you when it was Westinghouse, he stayed when they
called all you guys back, you had moved on. Nice guy, I wish I
remembered his name.
Russell Brill
have had general questions about the Vista series panel, and have had them
answered via e-mail by tech support within 24 to 48 hours...
Russ
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46246faf$0$27056$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Mark Leuck
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
> Mark Leuck wrote:
>
> >Which bud at P1? They've only had a few hundred people in and out of tech
> >support in the past 10 years
>
>
> I forgot his name, it was 2 years ago , he's not doing 1st level calls
> (as I imagine you don't either).
I don't take any calls, not my department
> He has a foreign sounding name and
> he said he still talks to you every couple of months (well 2 years ago
> anyway). He knew you when it was Westinghouse, he stayed when they
> called all you guys back, you had moved on. Nice guy, I wish I
> remembered his name.
Sounds like Lennox
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>Sounds like Lennox
That's him. I don't know why I thought he had a foreign sounding
name. He spoke very fondly of you, he knows Rojas too. And he
definitely knows his stuff.
Mark Leuck
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
He's from Trinidad
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
Ahh, so it was the accent I remembered.
Petem
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
46244a2b$0$5660$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> You expect us to remember 8 or 9 years ago when most here can't remember
> what they did last week?
>
Mark,please keep in mind that Alcohol abuse do have bad effect,and memory
problem is one of them...
You better call that AA pal of yours... ;-)
(if you don't see the humour here..well too bad....)
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
At least you quit top-posting.
GROUP MODERATOR
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
>
> At least you quit top-posting.
>
>
proof that frogs are trainable.:)
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
Not so fast..
It seems to be hit-and-miss. More data is required. :)
secure15
>
> What accredited tech school program specifically supports this industry?
> Besides the program through Lincoln Technical Ins. (5 campus locations)
> there is no place that and individual can go to specificly learn this
> industry.
WRONG
>
>
Jim
> Amazing what short memories exist here,
> about 8 or 9 years ago in this group when I responded to the Clock issue on
> the Z1100 and got chewed out there was plenty of attitude to go around.
8 or 9 years???
Sorry but your credit is no longer valid.
>
> I don't write every nite as many here do and as I have stated in the past
> many of the answers that are posted are accurate so when the point is made,
> I see no reason to go on and on.
Uuhhhh ..... OK.
>
> Furthermore, I don't dig up personal crap on fellow posters as I have seen
> done here for years.
That is worth no credit.
> Sometimes, I do get good feedback from this group and I
> have passed it on to whomever I worked for at the time whether it was Wade
> Moose, David Steele, (Moose Products), Ken Boyda (Sentrol then Interlogix)
> or now with the product managers of Honeywell.
Name droping is not a creditable endeavor either.
>
> As to coping an attitude, well when you see erroneous information posted
> about your company (Nomen's post that we do not notify folks about
> compatibility) well it just flipped a switch.
Switch flipping is a negative credit.
> and when someone gave their opinion that our organization essentially causes
> the problem. I simply gave an opinion.
>
Exemplified with huffing, puffing, expounding on your wealth of
experience, topped off with the words "little man".
Negative credit.
> Seems like years ago I contributed copies of the Scantronic Products to the
> Library Jim,
> Seems like I also wrote a letter years ago when Ademco wanted to stop the
> distribution of Ademco manuals on Tech Man
You're talking to the wrong "Jim"
>
> Don't remember anyone not wanting my input then.
If I could remember that far back I daresay no one asked for it
either. People here rarely ask anyone specifically for information or
help, except for end users or newbies.
>
> So, Can anyone complain and Lie here or is some special requirement needed?
The only requirement/request/solicitation/wish... is that you discuss
things that are of interest to you.
Once you enter into the realm of name calling and trying to impress
people with your experience ..... you're out witted and out-
experienced.
For all of the turmoil that exists here, you'll not find a greater
diversified cross section of everything from common sense to high tech
input coming from the participants here ...... with about ( I
estimate) 300 years of experience in this industry from every part of
North America in every level of this trade.
Your job is to pull the diamonds out of the bullshit. Your so called
experience is about as impressive as a speck of dust, on the back of a
flea, that's walking around the asshole of an elephant. No one really
cares. And the mere fact that you felt that you had to use that as a
credibility stick, all the more lessens any impact you may have
thought it migh achieve. Really .... no one cares what you've done or
where you've worked or who you know. As I said, if that's your best
shot, then you're already out classed. There are people here who have
personal friendships with people who run Honeywell.
Why, come to think of it ...... if you think it might have impress
you ....... maybe someone could mention your name to them and how you
deport yourself as a representative of their company on the Internet
to dealers who might be large users of Honeywell equipment.
The general rule is ...... when on line, if you're going to reveal
your identity, where you work, or live ....... you'd damn well better
be careful of what you say and who you say it to. Ya never know who's
on the other end. There are people here who are responsible for and
have caused people to lose their licenses and their jobs, because they
pissed off the wrong people.
And if you're feeling you'd like to respond all Huffy and Puffy about
all of this .... it just doesn't matter. This is not directed at you
but to you. It's all just a matter of fact. That's all.
Mark Leuck
"Petem" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZsfVh.135366$4a6.9...@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 46244a2b$0$5660$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
> > You expect us to remember 8 or 9 years ago when most here can't remember
> > what they did last week?
> >
>
>
> Mark,please keep in mind that Alcohol abuse do have bad effect,and memory
> problem is one of them...
>
> You better call that AA pal of yours... ;-)
You seem to be an expert on this stuff
I brive a dus
> "Petem" <petem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ZsfVh.135366$4a6.9...@weber.videotron.net...
>
>
>
> > "Mark Leuck" <m..le...@tx.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > 46244a2b$0$5660$4c368...@roadrunner.com...
>
> > > You expect us to remember 8 or 9 years ago when most here can't remember
> > > what they did last week?
>
> > Mark,please keep in mind that Alcohol abuse do have bad effect,and memory
> > problem is one of them...
>
> > You better call that AA pal of yours... ;-)
>
> You seem to be an expert on this stuff <
Stop picking on the guy already. Jesus Christ has it dawned on you
that he's ummmmmmmm half bubble off plumb?
He doesn't have both oars in the water. Ya think a mentally stable
person would type the shit he does about wanting to see Jews die?
WAIT! Don't answer that. It could cause an Imus moment.
Doug
Doug
--
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> wrote in message
news:1r1b239heacp91r7b...@4ax.com...
JoeRaisin
I brive a dus wrote:
Unless he really feels that way... then its an Al Sharpton moment...
Nomen Nescio
>The information is there. Each of the
>compatible devices is a clickable link.
>Here's what you get when you click on
>6160.
When something is listed as compatible, I shouldn't have to click on a link
to find out that it is not compatible. Claiming that Honeywell disclosed
this incompatibility is like claiming Bush disclosed something to Congress
because it's mentioned on page 1347 of the federal budget. In a footnote.
The instruction sheet for the 6160 feels it's important to tell people that
permanent backlighting is an option on some controls, but it doesn't feel
it's important to mention that the fricking keypad doesn't even work on
some panels. You tell me which is more important information.
>Newer models of this keypad, as of 2004,
>may not be compatible. They will give the
>correct status display, but will not send
>commands to the panel. If replacing or
>adding a new keypad, use a different model
>keypad that is compatible, or it may be an
>option to upgrade the control.
Use a different model keypad? Like what, exactly? And notice how earlier
models of this keypad apparently were compatible, only they removed the
compatibility.
Robert L Bass
> then its an Al Sharpton moment...
Sharpton actually surprised me the
other day. Maher commented how
the civil rights movement had moved
from the courts to the media and
how it's now all about playing
"gotcha" with whoever makes a
racist comment. He also asked
Sharpton if the whole affair isn't
also about freedom of speech.
Sharpton's answer was that blacks
were now exercising their freedom
of speech to let advertisers know
they will not purchase goods from
companies if their money is being
used to pay people like Imus to
insult them.
I figure Imus was trying to be cool,
hip, keen or whatever adjective he
thinks young people want to be
today. In doing so he managed
to show his disdain for blacks and
give people who already dislike
him some good ammunition. He's
a jerk who thought he could make
himself look good by attacking
people who are much better than
he ever was. It's nice he got fired.
Robert L Bass
"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message news:1cd183828bddfa76...@dizum.com...
> Robert L. Bas wrote:
>
>>The information is there. Each of the
>>compatible devices is a clickable link.
>>Here's what you get when you click on
>>6160.
>
> When something is listed as compatible,
> I shouldn't have to click on a link to find
It would be better if it said "Compatible
with some versions, click for details."
Also, Honeywell's site would be better
IMO if they used standard colors and
underlines for links. On some pages links
are red. On others they are gray. The
site doesn't work with FireFox.
Nevertheless, the gentleman is correct
in saying that the information is there
for the viewing.
> Claiming that Honeywell disclosed
> this incompatibility is like claiming Bush
> disclosed something to Congress
> because it's mentioned on page 1347
> of the federal budget. In a footnote.
That's an unfair comparison. Bush can't
read and he thinks a footnote is something
your friends write on your toes in magic
marker ink after you pass out drunk.
> The instruction sheet for the 6160 feels
> it's important to tell people that permanent
> backlighting is an option on some controls,
> but it doesn't feel it's important to mention
> that the fricking keypad doesn't even work
> on some panels. You tell me which is
> more important information...
The instruction sheet is intended for use with
current production controls. Do you want
them to also include a note that the 6160
doesn't work with a 342R?
>> Newer models of this keypad, as of 2004,
>> may not be compatible. They will give the
>> correct status display, but will not send
>> commands to the panel. If replacing or
>> adding a new keypad, use a different model
>> keypad that is compatible, or it may be an
>> option to upgrade the control.
>
> Use a different model keypad? Like what,
> exactly?
The note was posted before the 6139 was
discontinued.
> And notice how earlier models of
> this keypad apparently were compatible,
> only they removed the compatibility.
They didn't "remove" the compatibility. The
6160 was built for newer control panels.
It was incidentally compatible with some
of the older models but those were not it's
target systems. They can't be expected
to make every new keypad compatible with
every obsolete control panel.
I'm not saying they're perfect. But the
accusation that they don't provide the data
was wrong. The fallback position implying
that it's obscured behind tons of other data
is not a fair characterization. After all, if
even a lowly "parts pusher" could find it in
a single click surely a man of your stature
should have noticed that the model is a
clickable link and then followed it to learn
the whole story.
Frank Olson
> Also, Honeywell's site would be better
> IMO if they used standard colors and
> underlines for links. On some pages links
> are red. On others they are gray. The
> site doesn't work with FireFox.
> Nevertheless, the gentleman is correct
> in saying that the information is there
> for the viewing.
Heh... Uh-huh... And earlier you also criticized another poster for
employing "dud" links. You're the last person that should be advising
anyone about web site design...
Roland
That's great when it's not near closing time, and you're not stuck trying to
get the system armed so everyone (including you) can actually go home.
"Russell Brill" <russw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:VkeVh.22794$PL.1...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Eyeball Kid
>>
>>see my earlier post regarding CO detectors on a zone expander
>
>
> That is not a bug.. It's a well documented incompatibility. In fact,
> on the ADI site (Webtech, and ordering site, it states right next to
> the part number * not for CO use*) So if you missed that - you're the
> bug. 2 wire smokes can not be used on expanders either - is that a
> bug too?
>
I went and hauled a zone expander off the shelf today and looked inside
and I'll be darned if there isn't now a one page sheet packed with the
unit warning you not to use it with a CO detector - this is what happens
when you spend all your time as an office weenie. I humbly retract my
previous comment.
>
>
>>(my B**** list for Ademco/Vinegarpit is two pages long and I give to
>>everyone from the company I meet)
>
>
> Your what list? Bassshit list? Post the vinegar here and let the
> experts analyze your 'list'. I'll bet most can be crossed off because
> you didn't RTFM.
>
Alright, in the interests of generating some discussion ...
My Personal B**** List
1. 6160 Keypad – back light turns off after 2 seconds – make it longer
(10 seconds)
2. Vista 15/20 – you can’t put a CO detector wired Open/Cross on a zone
expander only on the panel.
3. When programming used codes it boots you out of programming if you
hesitate for more than 3 seconds (to look in the manual to confirm the
next step).
4. Zone expanders are huge and make it impossible to install more than 2
in the enclosure without it looking like a mess.
5. Low temp ratings on Sensors and Modules
a. Motion Sensors – The DT series when manufactured by C&K used to be
rated to -25°C. The DT72xx series are only rated to -10°C, and all other
motions are rated to only 0°C. I have never been given an answer as to
whether these temperatures are arbitrarily chosen by the engineering
team (can people in Long Island grasp that it can get this cold) or if
they are realistic (i.e.: it won’t work reliably below this
temperature). Ultimately, we end up having to use a sensor from
another manufacturer in any application that is unheated.
b. Wireless products – similarly rated to only 0°C, is this an arbitrary
rating?
Or can you derate the battery life at lower temperatures?
c. FG1625 rated to - 10°C.
6. User Literature – the manuals need to be re-written to make them
easier to understand (Change the font too – Times New Roman look out of
date). Every panel needs a one page “Dummies guide to your new alarm
system” user summary that is graphics rich. (Again see the examples from
the C&K Sierra panel)
7. Vista 15/20 – if you program a relay or output to trip on
TLM failure there is no way to program the relay/output to
reset on TLM reset.
8. There needs to be a BIG (oval shaped?) opening in the
back of the enclosure. (See Figure 1). Our preferred
installation method is to fish the wires inside the wall and in
the back of the panel to avoid having a big bundle of wires
running down the wall which is both sucks aesthetically and
from a security point of view (I’ve been to a couple of breakins
where someone has just chopped the bundle and torn the
panel off the wall).
9. Vista 32FB. When used as a fire transmitter (replacement
for the Silent Knight 5104 which we used to use), will not send
a restoral if the Fire Panel restores. After silencing and
resetting the fire alarm panel, somebody has to go to the keypad and
reset the 32FB as well.
10. There are no stickers available for the keypads on which you can
list 16 zones (one problem). So we went and got some custom made.
However the space on the inside of the keypad door is limited to where
you can put a sticker and how big it can be by its design. (Reinforcing
ribs). This space should be as big as possible to accommodate a sticker
with zones, shortened user guide etc.
11. True Alpha description programming – We want to be able to program
every word that appears on the keypad rather than having to select from
a list of canned words. We also want to be able to program in
Descriptors for the partitions (Shop vs. Office)
12. Every time you power up the panel it should demand you set the
date/time before letting you do anything else. (Like a Silent Knight
panel). Invariably when a customer goes to look in history the date/time
was never set and they have to try and extrapolate the information they
are looking for.
13. Make the transformer for the Lynx (9V) look distinctive (shape,
color whatever)from the 16V transformers that all the other panels use.
We have blown up a couple of Lynxes when someone grabs the wrong
transformer.
14. The installation manuals don’t reference ULC (or cUL) install
options but they do reference the UL install options.
15. When viewing history it continues to show current activity (i.e.:
you are trying to view history but people are walking around in the
office so the motions and doors keep showing up.)
16. Vista 15p- 20p panels should have both a trigger out put that can
handle 300ma for strobes (like the DSC Panels) instead of 40ma and 20ma
that cannot do anything but wire into a low current relay. They should
also have a dry contact programmable relay like the C&K Sierra; this
would add flexibility to the panel and set it above the competition
17. Redesign the keypad door closure. Presently Ademco keypads have very
fragile plastic tabs that secure the keypad door up, these have been
breaking all the time, very poor design leading to customer frustration
and free service calls. To my knowledge we have not been able to order
replacement doors for the 6150 and 6160 kp’s. .
18. User’s manual for the 6270 Touchpad does not have instructions on
how to change the Master User’s Code in it.
19. Revise the packaging – the large piece of #6 Polystyrene that holds
the contents of the can in place cannot be easily recycled. It should be
replaced with a piece of cardboard.
20. Add a tactile “divot” to the [5] key so someone with little or no
vision can navigate the keypad – a popular feature on the C&K Sierra.
If I was designing the Next Generation Panel it would
1. Have a built in NIC and RJ-45 for IP connection (in addition to a
dialer connection).
2. If there are to be multiple models of keypads (Alpha vs. Icon vs.
LED), the back plate, front cover and keypad cover would all be
universal (only the electronics inside the keypad would change from
model to model). The inside of the keypad cover would have the largest
possible space for an instruction sticker.
3. Rather than build a keypad with a built in RF receiver (or Voice
Module for that matter) I would design these module to replace the
standard back plate on the keypad. If a customer wants a keypad with a
receiver you remove the back plate on the keypad, screw the back plate
with the receiver to the wall and the keypad snaps on top of it.
Similarly the voice annunciator snaps behind the keypad and if you need
to the modules can be stacked to create a keypad with a receiver and a
voice annunciator. Each module increases the thickness of
the keypad by 3/8” or so. Less items to manufacture, stock etc.
4. Simplify the programming – does anyone use Ademco 4+1 anymore?. There
are two standards for sending signals in this industry. The De Jure
Standard is SIA (and your new panel should support it) and the De Facto
Standard is Contact ID. This industry needs to be dragged (kicking and
screaming if necessary) into the 21st century and embraced industry
standards like the computer industry. Twenty years ago it seems that
every manufacturer had their own proprietary scheme for networking
computers. Now I can go buy any NIC install it any PC and expect it to
work with any router.
a. Select the format (SIA or CID) the signals sent are all predetermined
(it’s a standard, right?)
b. What do you want sent – select On or Off for
i. Alarms
ii. Restoral
iii. Openings and Closings
iv. etc
5. No proprietary modem needed to download. For direct connection would
use the Ethernet connection (and benefit from it’s vastly better speeds).
6. An (optional) RS232 output module if you need to connect to some
other system.
7. Supervised power Supplies (1, 3 and 5 amp) that connect to the keybus
and report AC failure and Low battery conditions
8. A wireless bridge to connect two wired portions of a system together.
(Example a manufacturing plant that has a system in one building. Then a
second building is built and we install a Supervised power supply and
more wired devices on a keybus in it (keypads, zone expanders etc) and
then tie the two buildings together with a Wireless Bridge (like trying
two portions of a LAN with a wireless bridge).
9. A small panel (max 48 zones) should be able to partition into more
than 2 areas (the Sierra was capable of 8 areas).
10. All panels and zone expanders would use a common resistor value. (A
common problem we find now is the zone expander has been wired with the
wrong value EOL, the right value for the panel)
11. Wireless products based on Zigbee (802.15) protocol to benefit from
the “on the fly” mesh networking capability of this protocol. You could
also benefit from the ability to buy pre-built assemblies offshore. A
“Universal” transmitter module that will accept a NO or NC sensor and
has enough batteries to be able to provide 12VDC to attached devices (CO
detectors etc). This would allow the use of non-wireless devices that
require power.
12. Selectable auto-restore on all fire zones
13. For each partition you can have it report to a different
receiver/station (separate account number, phone number, format and what
signals you want sent and test frequency)
14. Every zone is configurable
15. No more manuals! – keypad should be intuitive enough or provide the
information you need to use the system – think of an ATM (Jim
Boehmer?from Price’s Alarm)
16. Low battery signals sent to the Mon Center – there should be a
different signal sent to the MC for a Low Battery condition if the AC
has failed (critical!) than if there is a Low Battery but the AC is
still on (not so critical). (Jim Boehmer?from Price’s Alarm)
Low Battery from a Wireless Sensor. Residentiallly, rather than having
the panel beep at 0230 in the morning (or whenever the low battery comes
in) and wake up the homeowner – just have it appear on the keypad and
not allow you to arm or disarm until you acknowledge the trouble (that
intuitive keypad again) with your code (logged to history so that we can
prove to the customer someone knew about the trouble). Sample message -
“there is a low battery in sensor 12 (Basement Smoke Detector) – you
must acknowledge this by entering your PIN
THIS COLLECTION OF THOUGHTS HAVE BEEN GATHERED FROM VARIOUS SMART PEOPLE
I HAVE SPOKEN TOO OVER THE YEARS - DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE I CAME UP
WITH THEM ON MY OWN!!
Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
>I went and hauled a zone expander off the shelf today and looked inside
>and I'll be darned if there isn't now a one page sheet packed with the
>unit warning you not to use it with a CO detector - this is what happens
>when you spend all your time as an office weenie. I humbly retract my
>previous comment.
>>
Umm okay... You could have seen it from the comfort of your chair by
simply logging into the MyWebTech site.
>>
>>>(my B**** list for Ademco/Vinegarpit is two pages long and I give to
>>>everyone from the company I meet)
>>
>>
>> Your what list? Bassshit list? Post the vinegar here and let the
>> experts analyze your 'list'. I'll bet most can be crossed off because
>> you didn't RTFM.
>>
>Alright, in the interests of generating some discussion ...
<snip the wish list>
LOL... I want to live in Utopia too. I'll address every one of your
points when I get an hour or so to reply. I still did not see any
bugs on the list.
Mark Leuck
"Eyeball Kid" <jim...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:z1AVh.536434$Ju2.3...@newsfe16.lga...
> Alright, in the interests of generating some discussion ...
>
> My Personal B**** List
> 1. 6160 Keypad – back light turns off after 2 seconds – make it longer
> (10 seconds)
I got a better one, the 6150RF doesn't time out yet the standard 6150 and
6160 do
> 3. When programming used codes it boots you out of programming if you
> hesitate for more than 3 seconds (to look in the manual to confirm the
> next step).
It won't if you use a graphics keypad
> 4. Zone expanders are huge and make it impossible to install more than 2
> in the enclosure without it looking like a mess.
True
> 12. Every time you power up the panel it should demand you set the
> date/time before letting you do anything else. (Like a Silent Knight
> panel). Invariably when a customer goes to look in history the date/time
> was never set and they have to try and extrapolate the information they
> are looking for.
Yea I'd love to see that
> 4. Simplify the programming – does anyone use Ademco 4+1 anymore?. There
> are two standards for sending signals in this industry. The De Jure
> Standard is SIA (and your new panel should support it) and the De Facto
> Standard is Contact ID. This industry needs to be dragged (kicking and
> screaming if necessary) into the 21st century and embraced industry
> standards like the computer industry.
Well there's this guy here named Jim and...... :)
> 5. No proprietary modem needed to download. For direct connection would
> use the Ethernet connection (and benefit from it’s vastly better speeds).
Well you can download Ademco over the internet with a 7845i and it's MUCH
faster, the problem with modems is it adds cost to the panel that few people
are willing to pay
> 6. An (optional) RS232 output module if you need to connect to some
> other system.
Ditto
Mark Leuck
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1176871184....@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
You mean he's not Rodney? I thought with all the name changes around
here.....
Eyeball Kid
> Eyeball Kid wrote:
>
>
>>I went and hauled a zone expander off the shelf today and looked inside
>>and I'll be darned if there isn't now a one page sheet packed with the
>>unit warning you not to use it with a CO detector - this is what happens
>>when you spend all your time as an office weenie. I humbly retract my
>>previous comment.
>>
>
> Umm okay... You could have seen it from the comfort of your chair by
> simply logging into the MyWebTech site.
>
>
>
post to a website.
I brive a dus
>
> - Show quoted text - <
I would be in Utopia if Honeywell offered a panel :
1- as easy to install & program as the Brinks panels.
2- with a programmer as easy to use as the Brinks programmers
3- that uses zone expanders are small as the Brinks expanders
4- with a large punchout in the can to pull wires through like the
Brinks panel
5- with built in options like a partition (Vista 20), remote phone
module & two way board (Lynx)
6- that had an rj cord built into the panel like the Brinks panel
OK I hate Brinks with a passion but I don't hate their equipment.
Anyone who has ever installed for Brinks can attest to their
programming being a breeze.
Honeywell manufactures the Brinks equipment so it's not like their
engineers would have to spend hours at the drawing board designing
this system.
OH yeah I'd also like to spend no more than a dollar fifty on the
system too.
Petem
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1176871184....@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 18, 12:09 am, "Mark Leuck" <m..le...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> . Ya think a mentally stable
> person would type the shit he does about wanting to see Jews die?
Thank you!!!
you just help me understand something!!
No one in his right mind could think that its fair that any should be
killed...
but we all know that a black can be killed with out a problem and a Muslim
baby is an all ok target practice ,a Korean, a Vietnamese,a French man(if
not a Jew..) all those can and should be killed if you feel like it!!
now I have a good understanding of the world you live in....
Petem
"Apu Nahasapeemapetilon" <no...@this.time> a écrit dans le message de news:
1r1b239heacp91r7b...@4ax.com...
Petem
English they could help you..
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@tx.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
46259952$0$24738$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
I brive a dus
> "I brive a dus" <alarminst...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 1176871184.987380.58...@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 18, 12:09 am, "Mark Leuck" <m..le...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > . Ya think a mentally stable
> > person would type the shit he does about wanting to see Jews die?
>
> Thank you!!!
>
> you just help me understand something!!
>
> No one in his right mind could think that its fair that any should be
> killed...
>
> but we all know that a black can be killed with out a problem and a Muslim
> baby is an all ok target practice ,a Korean, a Vietnamese,a French man(if
> not a Jew..) all those can and should be killed if you feel like it!!
>
> now I have a good understanding of the world you live in....<
Pete if you really believe the crap you type then you better hide from
squirrels at lunch time because you're NUTS.
BTW, did anyone ever tell you that you bear a strong resemblance to
Potsy Weber? What a shame you talk like a wacky Ralph Mouth. Maybe
Jack will post the link to the picture so we can review it.
Now PLEASE stop typing like Cookie Monster.
Petem
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1176967199.4...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 19, 2:42 am, "Petem" <petem...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pete if you really believe the crap you type then you better hide from
> squirrels at lunch time because you're NUTS..
Well if you beleive that i want to kill jews just for the fun of it,then you
better hide from toilet bowl,cause your a POS
> BTW, did anyone ever tell you that you bear a strong resemblance to
> Potsy Weber?
I had to google this name so i could understand what your talking about..But
it didnt turned back anything interresting,justa that it was a caracter in
Happy Days
Since i dont watch old American TV show,I dont understand what your talking
about...
But it made me think about one caracter that you would fit, his name was
ticoune and the tv show was Le temps d'une paix
> What a shame you talk like a wacky Ralph Mouth. Maybe
> Jack will post the link to the picture so we can review it.
Stop looking at youre reflection from your computer monitor,that way you
will stop thinking that every one look like you..you know that there is now
, computer with anti-glare ....could be time to upgrade...
> Now PLEASE stop typing like Cookie Monster.
whats with this cookie monster thing? i dont even know this fellow..and dont
want to start searching for it..
Roland
>doesn't work with a 342R
You mean it? I always thought it was a 6 volt verus 12 volt thing. I was
looking forward to the 6 volt 6160 model coming out so I could install it on
my 342R-50. I am crushed.
"Robert L Bass" <no-sales-spam@bassburglaralarms> wrote in message
news:xMKdnWrzF6Qkmrvb...@comcast.com...
Mark Leuck
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1176957277.0...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> I would be in Utopia if Honeywell offered a panel :
>
> 1- as easy to install & program as the Brinks panels.
>
> 2- with a programmer as easy to use as the Brinks programmers
>
> 3- that uses zone expanders are small as the Brinks expanders
>
> 4- with a large punchout in the can to pull wires through like the
> Brinks panel
>
> 5- with built in options like a partition (Vista 20), remote phone
> module & two way board (Lynx)
>
> 6- that had an rj cord built into the panel like the Brinks panel
>
> OK I hate Brinks with a passion but I don't hate their equipment.
> Anyone who has ever installed for Brinks can attest to their
> programming being a breeze.
> Honeywell manufactures the Brinks equipment so it's not like their
> engineers would have to spend hours at the drawing board designing
> this system.
Umm Tom you DO realize Honeywell makes that Brinks panel right?
Mark Leuck
> Yup got a few pall around here that are in the AA,too bad they don't speak
> English they could help you..
Too bad you don't apparently speak english either or I'd understand what you
just typed
Robert L Bass
> 6 volt verus 12 volt thing. I was looking
> forward to the 6 volt 6160 model coming
> out so I could install it on my 342R-50.
> I am crushed.
No problem. Just wire two of the 6160's in series and... :^)
Petem
>
> "Petem" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8fEVh.157797$4a6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
>> Yup got a few pall around here that are in the AA,too bad they don't
>> speak
>> English they could help you..
>
> Too bad you don't apparently speak english either or I'd understand what
> you
> just typed
Well,your answer just prove that you understood..
I brive a dus
> "I brive a dus" <alarminst...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:1176957277.0...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Show quoted text - <
Ummm Mark you DO realize that I stated that right?
Mark Leuck
Musta missed that but I still don't know why you cry over an obsolete panel
with limited expandability and requires a programmer, and I'm amazed you
even included #6.
I brive a dus
>
> - Show quoted text - <
#6 is out of laziness
I brive a dus
> "Petem" <petem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8fEVh.157797$4a6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
>
> > Yup got a few pall around here that are in the AA,too bad they don't speak
> > English they could help you..
>
> Too bad you don't apparently speak english either or I'd understand what you
> just typed <
I'd give you a nickle just for reading the post where he named some
French tv show.
Did you know there is a garden that runs along the French border? It's
about 40 miles long and filled with pansies. I believe it's called the
Maginot Line.
Roland Moore
1 through 6 and beyond won't matter.
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1176957277.0...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
I brive a dus
> Nothing could be good about it if you start with the Honeywell/Ademco name.
> 1 through 6 and beyond won't matter. <
Silence you insolent peckerhead and worship at the altar of Vista
before you are cast into the eternal pit of damnation known as AT&T
Jim
We have a few of those here in the States too.
Right off the south coast of Long Island.
It's called Fire Island.
On the west coast it's called San Francisco
In New England it's called P-town.
Roland
visit. They liked it so much they stayed since the locals didn't seem to
mind.
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177051542.2...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Roland
manual for proper technique.
"I brive a dus" <alarmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177076715.0...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Roland
solution. Thanks.
"Robert L Bass" <no-sales-spam@bassburglaralarms> wrote in message
news:IcCdnRF6cv2mtrXb...@comcast.com...
Robert L Bass
Always glad to be of service... :^)