More VOIP/Digital Voice
ABLE_1
Additional input. I was at the customers home yesterday and found the
following.
The wiring for line seizure was completed properly.
The voltage for ON Hook was at 46.28 vdc
The voltage for OFF Hook was at 11.89 vdc
The RING voltage was at 58.5 vac
Even though the ring voltage seems to be lower than was told to me at
60-90vac and much lower than BELL at 95-104vac I think that is a minor
issue.
The other voltages seem to be fine as far a TLM is concerned. So I am going
to be turning that function back on to see what happens.
My assessment at this time is that VoIP/Digital Voice is working for THIS
customer at this time. I will keep you updated as time goes on if something
changes.
Hope this info is found helpful to others.
Have a good day.
Les
tourman
in droves, we have to be able to do something. Whether a particular
VoIP connection works depends very much on the supplier; some suppliers
service works flawlessly, others work intermittently, and a few don't
work at all. And there seems to be no way to tell with any particular
connection until you hook it up and try it to the station.
To give clients service, I have taken to doing the following. Hook it
up and test thoroughly to the station (always using Sia or Contact ID).
Set up daily tests and watch the daily reports carefully for failure to
test. Make sure the customer is aware of the need for back up power
(UPS), and don't do a damn thing until he signs a legal liability
release. Also advise him that we can no longer dial in to the panel for
changes etc, so a visit might be required.
To date, I have about 7 clients on VoIP. They all seem to be working
well, except one, that eventually converted back to Bell. I have far
more clients on Rogers cable phone service, and the restrictions there
are exactly the same (although a cable connection is far better than an
IP connection it seems).
For the moment, there doesn't seem to be any cost effective way to deal
with the matter for residential accounts, since they will not keep
another spearate Bell line in service for their alarm.
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
Jim Rojas
different panels with minor problems.
Jim Rojas
"ABLE_1" <royboy...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:_IydnZRr8aJ_S_PY...@comcast.com...
tourman
doesn't work very well up here. I'm thinking the panels must require
higher ring voltage to "see" the ring coming in and that might be why
the panels don't answer. Bell ring tone is usually over 100 volts;
perhaps the panels need that to detect a ring tone....
I've never tried having the customer force the panel to answer at the
keypad...that might work though
RHC
Jim Rojas
High Speed Cable, I have my service at 10MBPS.
Jim Rojas
"tourman" <rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1164904058.5...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Jim
Jim Rojas wrote:
> I have Vonage VoIP service, and I am actually able to download many
> different panels with minor problems.
>
> Jim Rojas
>
>
>
from others) most other newer panels. I haven't experienced it first
hand, but in my area, Vonage doesn't work reliably. The reason given by
Cablevision (true or not?) is that the allocation of bandwidth for
"their" VoIP is an exclusive amount of bandwidth, set aside especially
for their phone service. When other service companys use their cable,
they are not given access to Cablevisons "exclusive" VoIP bandwidth
and are relagated to a less stable area of the spectrum. Feedback seems
to verify their claim so far. Downloading on Cablevision works most of
the time but sometimes you have to try multiple times before you can
make a good connection. Sometimes multiple "trys" are required to
up/download a section. Definitely more time consuming than Pots.
One of the things that I couldn't have forseen, was that Napco has a
feature that allows you to choose "Touch tone dialing with Rotary back
up" for dialing mode, which I've been programing in my panels for
years. Now I have to change the programing of every panel that converts
to VoIP to "Touch Tone Only" otherwise they'll only get one shot at
reporting.
But, Oh well, it's a service call and I can educate them first hand on
the downside of VoIP and also get a chance to up-sell them on a backup
system
Also, after a bad start on Cablevisions part and thousands of enduser
complaints regarding their ignorance and complete disregard of alarm
communication wiring, we set up a working relationship with Cablevison.
We trained their "trainers" and set them up with demos of lots of older
communicators along with examples and explanations of line seizure and
RJ31X wiring. Every Cablevision VoIP installer goes through the
training and I have to say that after the intial turmoil they caused,
the complaints have dropped to a bear minimum. They're not perfect, but
they're obviously trying hard. Now, when someone calls for a switch to
VoIP, they are asked if they have an alarm system and part of their
installation, is to have the end user send a signal to central after
the switch.
Is anyone having a problem with any particular Manufacturers alarm
panel ?????
.
secure15
Cablevision works great with Napco in Port Jeff Station, but won't work
for shit in Commack (napco too).
Mike
J Barnes
It will report sometimes and other times it will not. It is using contact
id for its reports. I am going to try 4+2 monday and see if the problem
clears up. If not I will sell him on our AES network.
James B
"secure15" <secu...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:OF6ch.101$Tl1...@newsfe12.lga...
Jim Rojas
I have found that VoIP voice mail pulses can hinder it at times.
Jim Rojas
"J Barnes" <trish...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZdudnZSSPpnSYu3Y...@comcast.com...
tourman
that format although I don't have enough in service on VoIP to make any
kind of real statement about anything. However, any reading I have done
seems to indicate if anything's gonna work it will either be Contact ID
or SIA formats.
RHC
Mark Leuck
> You might want to try SIA on that Power 832. I've had no problems using
> that format although I don't have enough in service on VoIP to make any
> kind of real statement about anything. However, any reading I have done
> seems to indicate if anything's gonna work it will either be Contact ID
> or SIA formats.
Strange, its been my experience SIA is the most likely to have problems
followed by CID, 4/2 is the most likely to work
J Barnes
be the most likely to work. I guess ill have to try both to see what works.
This is my first experience with VOIP and I dont think I like it. :<(
James
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:KsOdnVgxuPUovu_Y...@comcast.com...
tourman
others, are using SIA or Contact ID. I had two others go back to Bell
because the VoIP connection itself was poor...nothing to do with the
alarm.
I guess this just goes to show how flakey this whole alarms on VoIP
business is when those in the business can't even say between
themselves what works and what doesn't.....
RHC
>
> "Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:KsOdnVgxuPUovu_Y...@comcast.com...
> >
Doug
digital communicators are not going to work reliably together at the present
time and probably not in the future either and use an alternative means of
communications. I think that its a disservice to the customer and a
potential liability to the alarmco to try different formats until you find
one that works today, yet may stop tomorrow if and when the VoIP providers
make changes to their service in order to try to improve the voice
transmission.
If , and its a big if, VoIP and alarms systems are to co-exist it will have
to come from the alarm industry designing a product that will work with
VoIP, not the other way around, and it seems unlikley that its worth the
time and effort for a manufacturer to try and hit the every changing target
of VoIP, its much more likely that TCP/IP will be built in to new alarm
panels and very inexpensive TCP/IP modules will become available for
existing panels.
Doug
--
"tourman" <rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1165156535.7...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
tourman
(translation, you and I) still has to deal with VoIP in some workable
fashion. It's coming on like gangbusters and it's not going away ! Hit
and miss is no real solution as you say; however, you try telling that
to end users who can't (or more likely won't) see the problems as real.
I am hoping services such as www.lobenninc.com and others like that
will be able to solve the problem over the longer term. But if you
can't convince a client to leave a bloody Bell line in for the little
it costs each month, I doubt they'll spring for the $200 or so for the
on site TCPIP unit either. These units will have to be a LOT less
expensive than they are currently if clients are to seriously consider
them. We either try to make it work with all the safeguards we can
muster (ie: daily tests, proper hookup procedures, UPS on all
vulnerable connection devices. limitations of liability, etc) or we
walk away from half a million customers. Back up options such as
Uplink, Tel-a-Link radio etc are certainly viable, but still too costly
for some segments of the market (ie: residential).
I realize I'm playing the devils advocate here, but it's not far off
the reality of the situation ! Might be, we're seeing another offshoot
of the cheapening of the security market by the mass marketers...no one
feels security is worth much.
As I see it, for the next while anyway, the industry is " between a
rock and a hard place"...
RHC
Mark Leuck
use SIA with VOIP.
"tourman" <rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1165156535.7...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jim Rojas
lines. There where many problems, such as late to test, missed signals, etc.
Once I switched it to CID, the problem seemed to go away for the most part.
We still get signals coming in a bit late, but that's why they have 8 dial
attempts per line...after the 2nd or 3rd try, it goes through.
I have been telling techs to program an extra dial tone detect or an
extended pause to make sure the line is truly clear.
Jim Rojas
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WbednX8awfWk9O7Y...@comcast.com...
Bob La Londe
> For the moment, there doesn't seem to be any cost effective way to deal
> with the matter for residential accounts, since they will not keep
> another spearate Bell line in service for their alarm.
My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the same
way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play with and
beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a chance to drive
over and pick one up.
Napco has an IP reporting module as well, that also allows some other
functionality on the 9600 and X255 panels. It just reports alarms on lower
level Napco panels.
--
Bob La Londe
Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River
Fishing Forums & Contests
http://www.YumaBassMan.com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
alarman
"Bob La Londe" <nos...@nospam.no> wrote in message
news:4573757b$0$20635$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the
> same way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play
> with and beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a
> chance to drive over and pick one up.
Why not just send them an empty box with foam peanuts and a click'n'ship
label?
js
Mark Leuck
"Bob La Londe" <nos...@nospam.no> wrote in message
news:4573757b$0$20635$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>
> > For the moment, there doesn't seem to be any cost effective way to deal
> > with the matter for residential accounts, since they will not keep
> > another spearate Bell line in service for their alarm.
>
> My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the
same
> way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play with
and
> beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a chance to
drive
> over and pick one up.
Tela-Link by chance?
>
> Napco has an IP reporting module as well, that also allows some other
> functionality on the 9600 and X255 panels. It just reports alarms on
lower
> level Napco panels.
Yea I've got one connected to a 3200, still trying to get it to work
although the software on the CS end isn't really designed for "industrial"
use
Russell Brill
so, what do you think of it?
JL
fax me the Beta Test Agreement?
I asked a while back if anyone had used a decent Internet Communicator
and never did find one with the simplicity I required. They all have
proprietary receivers and equipment costing thousands for the Central
Station to get started (then the C/S has to get their dealers to
purchase the end-user equipment and hope everyone wants to use it).
I've heard a lot of what everyone here is talking about. This panel or
that works with this provider or that but only with this format or that
and only during certain moon phases. You will never be able to know
the latency induced by the routers down-stream so even if something
works today, odds are it won't work at some point as routers and paths
change. We've seen them work great for a while, then stop working.
We've heard SIA works, sometimes, and CID, sometimes, and 4x2 pulse
formats, usually (but we Hate pulse formats). It always comes down to
latency. Timing is critical to some communicators (and receivers) and
not as critical to others. Older analog receivers are more likely to
accept the less-than-perfect timing and frequency tolerances, where the
digital receivers aren't as forgiving (unless tuned for it, but even
then...). I suspect downloading would only work on very slow baud
rates, again dependent on where you are and where the customer is and
how many routers you need to go through before reaching their unit.
Anyone here is welcome to get one of our BETA Test units. Well, you
must be a real Alarm Installing Company and have a Monitoring Agreement
with us, but then you can try it out. I want to get as many scenarios
as possible tested.
The ASI Communicator utilizes the AES 7067 IntelliTap-II (a UL Listed
device for Alarm Communications) for phone line simulation and
communications (those already using AES IntelliNet products can even
supply your own IntelliTap to save a couple buck). The unit supports
Contact ID and 4x2 Pulse Formats. Just connect Tip and Ring, Power,
and Ethernet and wala. No need to change account number or phone
number in existing panels (Great for Take-Overs). One-click on the
Customer Account via Dealer Web Access allows you to attach your
Internet Communicator to a Customer Account.
The one downfall of my unit is that you can't download the panel
through the communicator. For that you will have to use a T-Link or
AlarmNet-I communicator, but from what I understand they both interface
using the Keypad bus so they won't work for Every panel if you want
full-reporting. We don't have a DSC Internet Receiver but we do accept
AlarmNet-I units. The dealer price for equipment will definitely be
under $200 (I'm pushing for about $150 which includes the IntelliTap).
We are not trying to make money on the equipment, we just want to make
sure you can get your customer Monitored without imposing too much
additional cost on them or installation time for you.
See http://www.azsecurity.com/inetmonitor.php for details and the BETA
Test Agreement. Or call me (Joe) @ 480-756-5423 for ther really hard
questions.
Bob La Londe
"JL" <2joe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165267623.5...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, why didn't you Say So. I'd be happy to Send you one. Did you
> fax me the Beta Test Agreement?
>
Is this Joe? I'll fax it in within a week or so. (Been real busy in Mexico
the last few weeks/months.) I didn't bother to send it in since it said
"stop by and pick one up." If you will send me one I'l be glad to throw it
on the office panel and see how it performs for a month or three.
Mark Leuck
"Russell Brill" <russw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:qcWch.7335$1s6...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> >
> Mark, if I remember right, you said you had been testing a Napco P1664. If
> so, what do you think of it?
I just replaced it with a v50 P3200 to test the NET-MOD stuff, the 1664 was
nice although I don't know what purpose it will serve unless they wanted a
cheaper panel with more than the 3200 could do, problem is its not in the
same family and instead just a larger 1632
Mark Leuck
> fax me the Beta Test Agreement?
>
> I asked a while back if anyone had used a decent Internet Communicator
> and never did find one with the simplicity I required. They all have
> proprietary receivers and equipment costing thousands for the Central
> Station to get started (then the C/S has to get their dealers to
> purchase the end-user equipment and hope everyone wants to use it).
If you want simplicity go Honeywell, anything else will require knowing ip
addresses, gateways, DNIS servers etc
Russell Brill
Mark Leuck
Not at all, quality is the same however the family and therefore available
functions are different, the panel belongs in the lower-end 816/1632 family
and not the 3200/9600/X255 even though it has more zone capability than the
3200, For instance the internet module works better on the 3200 than the
1664.
Bob La Londe
Yep, Its really a shoe in for the 9600 and X255. It gives full reporting.
Its my understanding its more like the Uplink 1500 of ip communicators for
other panels.
I don't use the 3200. Its not enough cheaper than the 9600 to justify
using, and for most applications the 1632 does the job more than adequately.
I'll have to look and see how the 1664 is packaged and priced. A few more
zones are useful much more often than the extra handful of features for the
3200/9600/X255 family. About the only time I use one of those is if I need
more than 2 partitions. Actually for those applications I prefer the Caddx
NX8E with its full feature modular expansion. Need another partition
because the client needed another building? Add an expansion module and box
in the other building and then just run 4 wires back to the keypad bus of
the main panel. Its kinda awkward to program compared to the 9600, but
otherwise its a lot easier to expand and cover more areas.
--
Current Rides (Yuma, Az)
2005 VN1600B2 Kawasaki Vulcan Mean Streak
2001 VLX600 Honda Shadow (for sale)
2003 FLTR Harley Road Glide (wife's bike)
1981 CM200T Honda Twin (project)
Past Rides
1996 VF750C Honda Magna
1976 CL350 Honda
1986 VT500C Honda Shadow
1976 GL1000 Honda Goldwing
1984 VT700C Honda Shadow
1976 GL1000 Honda Goldwing
1981 XS650 Yamaha Heritage Special
198X KZ440LTD Kawasaki
1985 CX500 Honda
1981 FX 1200 Harley Super Glide
1969 SOHC CB750 Honda
198X GN250 Suzuki
1988 VLX600 Honda Shadow
1984 GL1200 Honda Goldwing
1997 FLHT Harley Electra Glide
2002 VRSCA Harley V-Rod
** I knew I forgot one or two
198X Seca 650 Turbo Yamaha
197X Paughco Springer (sans engine)
Robert L Bass
> run 4 wires back to the keypad bus
I do the same thing with the P9600. One recent DIY client was a church near Phoenix. They have three auxiliary structures near the
main building. Each out building only needed a few zones so I sold them three extra RP1-CAe2 keypads. The four on-board zones on
each keypad are assigned the same partition as that keypad. This works like a charm for the customer without needing a separate
zone expander in each building.
In my own church in CT I did the same thing though we only had one out building which was first used as office space but has since
been converted to storage. The building, which had a single conduit for data cabling, was about 700 feet from the main building. I
put an RP1-CAe2 in there along with a small Altronix power supply, a stand-alone siren and a Napco programmable relay board. We
could have installed a separate system for less money but I wanted the ability to arm it from the front building.
We did this or something similar to it many times using P9600 and P3200 systems in residences with detached garages, tool sheds,
barns, etc.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
JL
> addresses, gateways, DNIS servers etc
Yep, but you have to pay AlarmNet and deal with their billing system
and their "technical support". We do accept AlarmNet-I, we just don't
like the Administration required by the Central Station when working
with AlarmNet. We made our own to cut-out the administration involved
with the middle-man. And, we can do full reporting on any most panel,
not just specific manufacturers and models of panels.
But, if you are using Ademco equipment and don't mind working with
AlarmNet then I'm sure AlarmNet-I is a good option. I've never worked
with one directly and only have one or two dealers who have ever used
it. Apparently the AlarmNet-I units are a bit pricey (compared to
$150). My biggest problem with AlarmNet-I (and -A and -C and -GSM) is
that it has to go to New York first, then come back to Me. We've seen
signals get hung-up between here and AlarmNet that got delivered
several hours later because AlarmNet didn't notice there was a problem
between Phx and NY. I don't care for systems that require a
third-party relay. For best reliablity, alarm signals should go
Directly to the Monitoring Center without other uncontrollable entities
in the middle of the transmissions. But maybe that's just me being a
control freak.
Functionally, AlarmNet has always been VERY reliable. Very rarely are
there problems with the relaying of signals. From the Dealers point of
view, AlarmNet may be great, but from the Monitoring Centers point of
view, they are a nightmare to administer. We've been requesting them
to give us better access to the data we want but they just don't have
the technical resources to Improve anything. They want to keep making
new products but won't spend any time to improve the way they
communicate with the Monitoring Centers to help make us want our
dealers to use them.
Mark Leuck
>
> > 3200, For instance the internet module works better on the 3200 than the
> > 1664.
>
>
> Yep, Its really a shoe in for the 9600 and X255. It gives full
reporting.
> Its my understanding its more like the Uplink 1500 of ip communicators for
> other panels.
Just make sure the 9600 and X255 are up to date in the firmware, I had to
upgrade to 3200 to v40
> I don't use the 3200. Its not enough cheaper than the 9600 to justify
> using, and for most applications the 1632 does the job more than
adequately.
> I'll have to look and see how the 1664 is packaged and priced. A few more
> zones are useful much more often than the extra handful of features for
the
> 3200/9600/X255 family. About the only time I use one of those is if I
need
> more than 2 partitions. Actually for those applications I prefer the
Caddx
> NX8E with its full feature modular expansion.
Why use Napco when the 8E pretty much does it all? I love the 8E
(and has better software AND easier to keypad program)
Mark Leuck
> > If you want simplicity go Honeywell, anything else will require knowing
ip
> > addresses, gateways, DNIS servers etc
>
> Yep, but you have to pay AlarmNet and deal with their billing system
> and their "technical support". We do accept AlarmNet-I, we just don't
> like the Administration required by the Central Station when working
> with AlarmNet. We made our own to cut-out the administration involved
> with the middle-man. And, we can do full reporting on any most panel,
> not just specific manufacturers and models of panels.
With the ENT series you don't have to go through AlarmNet.
> But, if you are using Ademco equipment and don't mind working with
> AlarmNet then I'm sure AlarmNet-I is a good option. I've never worked
> with one directly and only have one or two dealers who have ever used
> it. Apparently the AlarmNet-I units are a bit pricey (compared to
> $150).
They initially were however at the time the monitoring was free, now they
cut the price of the 7845I and Symphony and have a small charge for the
monitoring
My biggest problem with AlarmNet-I (and -A and -C and -GSM) is
> that it has to go to New York first, then come back to Me. We've seen
> signals get hung-up between here and AlarmNet that got delivered
> several hours later because AlarmNet didn't notice there was a problem
> between Phx and NY. I don't care for systems that require a
> third-party relay. For best reliablity, alarm signals should go
> Directly to the Monitoring Center without other uncontrollable entities
> in the middle of the transmissions. But maybe that's just me being a
> control freak.
We've had some problems in the past but that appears to have been cleared up
and that was only on the older C, not I or GSM. Also the third party relay
IS the reason it's so easy to install since you don't have to program IP
addresses
> Functionally, AlarmNet has always been VERY reliable. Very rarely are
> there problems with the relaying of signals. From the Dealers point of
> view, AlarmNet may be great, but from the Monitoring Centers point of
> view, they are a nightmare to administer. We've been requesting them
> to give us better access to the data we want but they just don't have
> the technical resources to Improve anything. They want to keep making
> new products but won't spend any time to improve the way they
> communicate with the Monitoring Centers to help make us want our
> dealers to use them.
Well I'm in a central station as well and I don't see the nightmare in
administration, they are constantly improving the web page and it's a far
cry than what they started with, now if only TelGuard would get theirs up nd
running...
Bob La Londe
I have housing development agreements in place with Napco.
Oh, yeah the 8E is easier to keypad program. Almost anything is easier than
Napco address programming. Personally i like the Napco DOS software better
than any other software I have used, but they no longer support it with new
panels and panel features.
--
Sincerly,
The guy who makes the final decision on who we buy from.
Bob La Londe
The Security Consultant
Bob La Londe - Owner
849 S Ave C
Yuma, Az 85364
(928) 782-9765 ofc
(928) 782-7873 fax
Licensed Contractor
ROC103044 & ROC103047
Bob La Londe
Joe works for a central station that is doing a lot of its own developing
and innovation directly. One of the reason I use them. Cool toys, and they
work.
--
Sincerly,
The guy who makes the final decision on who we buy from.
Bob La Londe
The Security Consultant
Bob La Londe - Owner
849 S Ave C
Yuma, Az 85364
(928) 782-9765 ofc
(928) 782-7873 fax
Licensed Contractor
ROC103044 & ROC103047
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Frank Olson
> In my own church in CT I did the same thing though we only had one out building which was first used as office space but has since
> been converted to storage. The building, which had a single conduit for data cabling, was about 700 feet from the main building. I
> put an RP1-CAe2 in there along with a small Altronix power supply, a stand-alone siren and a Napco programmable relay board. We
> could have installed a separate system for less money but I wanted the ability to arm it from the front building.
Ah... You mean from the keypad that read: "Attention Burglar! Go
ahead, make my day."
Bob La Londe
"Frank Olson" <Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
news:4htdh.430950$5R2.368572@pd7urf3no...
I don't think you have ever used a Caddx 8E remote expansion Robert. Its
more like a complete panel in itself as far as connectivity, power supply,
siren outputs, zones, etc...Far superior for a distributed
commercial/industrial system to the P9600 w/ EZMs or RP1CAe series keypads.
Increased, battery to cover that module, additional load capacity for that
module, full supervison unlike piggy backing an extra PS onto a Napco panel.
Napco is good stuff, but for big systems this is way better.
I've got a couple 9600s in the field that I wish I had these in instead.
--
Sincerly,
The guy who makes the final decision on who we buy from.
Bob La Londe
The Security Consultant
Bob La Londe - Owner
849 S Ave C
Yuma, Az 85364
(928) 782-9765 ofc
(928) 782-7873 fax
Licensed Contractor
ROC103044 & ROC103047
Frank Olson
> "Frank Olson" <Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
> news:4htdh.430950$5R2.368572@pd7urf3no...
>
>>Robert L Bass wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In my own church in CT I did the same thing though we only had one out
>>>building which was first used as office space but has since been
>>>converted to storage. The building, which had a single conduit for data
>>>cabling, was about 700 feet from the main building. I put an RP1-CAe2 in
>>>there along with a small Altronix power supply, a stand-alone siren and a
>>>Napco programmable relay board. We could have installed a separate
>>>system for less money but I wanted the ability to arm it from the front
>>>building.
>>
>>
>>Ah... You mean from the keypad that read: "Attention Burglar! Go ahead,
>>make my day."
>
>
> I don't think you have ever used a Caddx 8E remote expansion Robert.
You're right. He hasn't. He's probably attended the seminars though. ;-)
Robert L Bass
> 8E remote expansion Robert. Its more
> like a complete panel in itself as far as
> connectivity, power supply, siren outputs,
> zones, etc...
I sell far more Napco and Ademco than Caddx. For many applications like the ones I mentioned the Napco solution is ideal. For a
large-scale, commercial application I *might* choose something else. However, Napco does allow me to use remote zone expansion
units, 8-port programmable relay expanders, power supplies, etc. The difference is with Napco I can just use a keypad for remote
zone input when the job doesn't call for all that hardware. That can represent a significant time and money savings to the DIY end
user.
> full supervison unlike piggy backing an extra
> PS onto a Napco panel...
Actually, it is easy to fully supervise an auxiliary power supply with Napco *if* I need the power supply. In many cases it's not
even needed.
> Napco is good stuff, but for big systems
> this is way better.
Personal choice. I've been using Napco for decades. Everything you mention can be done with Napco when needed. I like the option
to make it simple or complex. Also, since most of my DIY customers are residential, there rarely is a need for all the add-ons.
If they really want commercial power in an alarm, they can always use the Ademco / Honeywell Vista-128. BTW, I have numerous DIY
customers using that system. It' more advanced and larger than the Vista-20P but it's not really much harder to use. There's just
more to do and more options to select. It's like the difference between a Napco P3200 and an ELK-M1G. I have lots of DIY customers
using both of those as well.
Jim
Frank Olson wrote:
> >
> > I don't think you have ever used a Caddx 8E remote expansion Robert.
>
>
>
> You're right. He hasn't. He's probably attended the seminars though. ;-)
You're probably right because they wouldn't let him stay at a Holiday
Inn.
Don
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ANmdnWeAEvCXiOrY...@comcast.com...
>
> I sell far more Napco and Ademco than Caddx. For many applications like
> the ones I mentioned the Napco solution is ideal. For a large-scale,
> commercial application I *might* choose something else. However, Napco
> does allow me to use remote zone expansion units, 8-port programmable
> relay expanders, power supplies, etc.
so does networx
Robert L Bass
Really? And the Caddx (Networx) part number for the keypad with built-in 4-zone expander is???
The point is that with Napco you have a choice. You can use a power supply, zone expander and programmable relay outputs per
partition OR just use an RP1-CAe2 keypad with built-in four zone expander. With Caddx you have to use a separate expander, cabinet
and keypad per partition. I like the flexibility that Napco offers. I also prefer the way they respond when I need them. GE is
*s-l-o-w". In fact, GE now says they process new orders 2 days after receiving them and average shipping delay days after that, not
including the time it takes them to drop ship to my customers.
Don't misread me on this. I like a lot of GE Security's products and I sell lots of them. But they need to take a cue from some of
the smaller manufacturers when it comes to customer service.
Don
> Really? And the Caddx (Networx) part number for the keypad with built-in
> 4-zone expander is???
don't need it with zone doubling.
> I like the flexibility that Napco offers. I also prefer the way they
> respond when I need them. GE is *s-l-o-w". In fact, GE now says they
> process new orders 2 days after receiving them and average shipping delay
> days after that, not including the time it takes them to drop ship to my
> customers.
>
> Don't misread me on this. I like a lot of GE Security's products and I
> sell lots of them. But they need to take a cue from some of the smaller
> manufacturers when it comes to customer service.
You should fell priviledged, at least they still take your orders. a lot
got cut out during the transition.
Russell Brill
"Don" <d...@ld.net> wrote in message
news:Eg4eh.1948$uY1....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
their CRAP... I used to Love Sentrol stuff, and I thought the Caddx NX-8 was
a great product also, but I dropped both like a hot potato when the Bean
Counters bought them... You know, the same Bean Counters that will compete
with Installing Dealers by selling to Lowes & Home Depot :-(
Mark Leuck
>
> I think GE should fell privileged that he's dumb enough to keep selling
> their CRAP... I used to Love Sentrol stuff, and I thought the Caddx NX-8
was
> a great product also, but I dropped both like a hot potato when the Bean
> Counters bought them... You know, the same Bean Counters that will compete
> with Installing Dealers by selling to Lowes & Home Depot :-(
They sell Simons at Home Depot (and not very well), how is that competition
to you?
Robert L Bass
>> number for the keypad with built-in
>> 4-zone expander is???
>
> don't need it with zone doubling.
Pardon me. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Both systems offer lots of zone capability. Both offer multiple partitions. Both
offer remote expanders. Napco alone offers a keypad with built-in four zone expander which in many cases is all you need for a
remote partition. In large, residential applications and many mid-sized commercial jobs, that's all you need for a remote
structure.
I've protected a number of foundries which had been converted into multiple tenant, commercial space. In several of these we used
the Napco Gemini P9600 control with 8 keypads, one per partition. One place in particular was especially easy due to its layout.
Stretched along two ~200 foot corridors were a series of office modules. Each had two doors and one motion detector. We daisy
chained an 18/2 cable for detector power and another 18/4 for the keypads. There were 16 units in the building. Twp Napco P9600
systems protected all of them. The building owners paid for the installation and each tenant paid $15 a month for monitoring,
including open & close reports. No one else offered anything close in price or quality yet we made over $2800 a year for the
monitoring.
BTW, this was one of the few places I took over where ADT corporate had done a poor job. There was a fire alarm system there, an
old one which ADT had taken over. They were charging an astronomical sum for monitoring and quarterly testing. Unfortunately,
whoever was supposedly testing it had shunted out numerous devices, including two or three waterflow sensors, most of the valve
tampers, etc. After a small fire the insurer found the problems and raised waco. The owners had us replace the panel with a Silent
Knight unit. We weren't UL listed, but the hardware was and we brought the system up to spec. I had to contract out the
inspections but we got the monitoring contract anyway.
Jim
Robert L Bass wrote:
> >> Really? And the Caddx (Networx) part
> >> number for the keypad with built-in
> >> 4-zone expander is???
> >
> > don't need it with zone doubling.
>
> Pardon me. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Both systems offer lots of zone capability. Both offer multiple partitions. Both
> offer remote expanders. Napco alone offers a keypad with built-in four zone expander which in many cases is all you need for a
> remote partition. In large, residential applications and many mid-sized commercial jobs, that's all you need for a remote
> structure.
>
> I've protected a number of foundries which had been converted into multiple tenant, commercial space. In several of these we used
> the Napco Gemini P9600 control with 8 keypads, one per partition. One place in particular was especially easy due to its layout.
> Stretched along two ~200 foot corridors were a series of office modules. Each had two doors and one motion detector. We daisy
> chained an 18/2 cable for detector power and another 18/4 for the keypads. There were 16 units in the building. Twp Napco P9600
> systems protected all of them.
Uh Huh! Let's see now.
What's the current draw of 8 EZM keypads and 8 motion detectors? And
what's the max Aux current of a 9600?
Roland Moore
STANDBY-BATTERY CALCULATION WORKSHEET
> Uh Huh! Let's see now.
>
> What's the current draw of 8 EZM keypads and 8 motion detectors? And
> what's the max Aux current of a 9600?
Let's do the arithmetic!
Use the procedure given below to determine the required standby battery
capacity in Ampere-Hours (AH). NOTE: It is not totally accurate
to merely multiply the combined standby current (in amperes) by the standby
time (in hours) to obtain the battery capacity (in
ampere-hours), since other factors (control-panel charging capabilities,
temperature, battery condition, etc.) affect battery operation.
The following calculations will yield the theoretical minimum required
capacity.
1. STANDBY CURRENT
STANDBY CURRENT (Amps)
DEVICE QTY EACH TOTAL
GEM-P9600 1 X 0.120 =
GEM-EZM4/8 X 0.050 =
GEM-EZM8 X 0.050 =
GEM-RP1CAe2/
GEM-K1CA
X 0.100 =
GEM-RP1CAe2/
GEM-K1CA (1)
X 0.035 =
GEM-RP2ASe2/
GEM-K2AS
X 0.065 =
GEM-RP2ASe2/
GEM-K2AS (2)
X 0.020 =
GEM-RP3DGTL/
GEM-K3DGTL
X 0.050 =
RM3008 (3) X 0.040 =
X =
X =
TOTAL STANDBY CURRENT
Amps
(1) Alarm current drawn in alarm.
(2) Alarm Time in Hours. Example: For a 15 minute alarm timeout, Alarm Time
=
15/60 = 0.25.
2. ALARM CURRENT
ALARM CURRENT (Amps)
DEVICE QTY EACH TOTAL
TOTAL STANDBY CURRENT (from Box 1, above)
GEM-P9600 (1) X 0.100 = 0.100
BELLS X =
STROBES X =
HORNS / STROBES X =
X =
X =
Amps
TOTAL ALARM CURRENT
(1) Backlighting disabled (cut Jumpers W1, W2 & W3).
(2) Backlighting disabled (cut Jumpers A, B & C).
(4) Standby Time in Hours.
(Box 1)
X
Hours
=
AH.
(Standby Time)(4) (Box 2)
X
Hours
=
AH.
(Alarm Time)(2) (Box 3)
MINIMUM REQUIRED BATTERY CAPACITY = BOX 2 + BOX
AH.
"Jim" <alar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1165557046.5...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Robert L Bass
Knock yourself out. With a Napco auxiliary power supply the P9600 has a rated standby current capacity of 1.4 Amps. Eight keypads
together draw 280mA (backlight off) and 800mA (backlight on). I don't recall which motions we used but most times I used the
Visonic K-980D which draws less than 30mA in quiescent state.
Don
>>
>> don't need it with zone doubling.
>
> Pardon me. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Both systems offer lots
> of zone capability. Both offer multiple partitions. Both offer remote
> expanders. Napco alone offers a keypad with built-in four zone expander
> which in many cases is all you need for a remote partition. In large,
> residential applications and many mid-sized commercial jobs, that's all
> you need for a remote structure.
big deal. you still have to buy a keypad just like networx.
Robert L Bass
What you *don't* have to buy or install with Napco is a separate zone expander, power supply and cabinet.
Don
>> big deal. you still have to buy a keypad just like networx.
>
> What you *don't* have to buy or install with Napco is a separate zone
> expander,
only if you need more than 16 on nx8
>power supply and cabinet.
don't need them either. unless you need more than 1 amp on nx8. if you do
need more power the nx320e will fit with both 7 ah batteries in the can and
add 2 amps.
does that come with all napco keypads or do you have to pay extra for the
one with the 4 zone xpander?
Frank Olson
>>Let's do the arithmetic!
>
>
> Knock yourself out. With a Napco auxiliary power supply the P9600 has a rated standby current capacity of 1.4 Amps.
I'm sure that while your "heart" is in the right place, your terminology
is a bit "wonky" here. I've never heard of a "rated standby current
capacity" being applied to an auxiliary power supply. That phrase has
more to do with the *battery* rating. I believe dropping the "standby"
would probably convey what you're trying to say a bit better, in that
the total auxiliary power supply *capacity* of the panel is increased to
1400 mA with the inclusion of the Napco auxiliary power supply. This,
of course has nothing to do with the amount of time the equipment will
function in the event of a power failure. Roland's forumlation derives
the required battery size for a given equipment current draw over a
given period of time (regardless of the size of the power supply). Of
course other limitations come into effect here as well (such as the
charger's capacity and whether or not a low battery cut-off circuit is
incorporated to prevent too deep a discharge on the larger capacity
batteries).
Robert L Bass
>>
>> What you *don't* have to buy or install with Napco is a separate zone expander,
>
> only if you need more than 16 on nx8
>
>>power supply and cabinet.
>
> don't need them either. unless you need more than 1 amp on nx8. if you do need more power the nx320e will fit with both 7 ah
> batteries in the can and add 2 amps.
>
> does that come with all napco keypads or do you have to pay extra for the one with the 4 zone xpander?
We're talking about the ability to use just a single keypad for a remote partition. Caddx cannot do that. The Napco RP1-CAe2 is an
LCD "custom English" display keypad. It includes the 4-zone expander. Caddx doesn't have an equivalent product. Note that you can
use that keypad for zone expansion of the primary partition as well. In fact, any zones -- keypad, main panel or expansion unit --
can be assigned to any or all partitions.
Mark Leuck
"Roland Moore" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:KX8eh.2024$qp1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> tWW of a 9600?
> STANDBY-BATTERY CALCULATION WORKSHEET
>
> > Uh Huh! Let's see now.
> >
> > What's the current draw of 8 EZM keypads and 8 motion detectors? And
> > what's the max Aux current of a 9600?
>
>
> Let's do the arithmetic!
9600 = 750ma 2A alarm output
RP1CAe2 Alpha = 100ma
standard motion 30 to 50ma
thats all you had to say jeez
Mark Leuck
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:d7OdnRrjF5EEs-TY...@comcast.com...
Mark Leuck
And the zone expander can be anywhere
Roland
> standard motion 30 to 50ma thats all you had to say jeez
installation manual.news:CM6dnb4_cpmkauTY...@comcast.com...
Don
> partition. Caddx cannot do that.
Can too.
you must have been infected with balonium 210.
>The Napco RP1-CAe2 is an LCD "custom English" display keypad. It includes
>the 4-zone expander. Caddx doesn't have an equivalent product.
dont need one, use zone doubling
>Note that you can use that keypad for zone expansion of the primary
>partition as well. In fact, any zones -- keypad, main panel or expansion
>unit -- can be assigned to any or all partitions.
whoop te do
G. Morgan
>you must have been infected with balonium 210.
heh, heh, heh :-)
--
-Graham
(delete the double e's to email)
Mark Leuck
"Roland" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:VLneh.3057$qp1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> > 9600 = 750ma 2A alarm output RP1CAe2 Alpha =100ma
> > standard motion 30 to 50ma thats all you had to say jeez
> Remember me? Fat and lazy? All I did was cut and past from the pdf
> installation manual.
Yes I noticed
Mark Leuck
> > We're talking about the ability to use just a single keypad for a remote
> > partition. Caddx cannot do that.
>
> Can too.
> you must have been infected with balonium 210.
>
> >The Napco RP1-CAe2 is an LCD "custom English" display keypad. It
includes
> >the 4-zone expander. Caddx doesn't have an equivalent product.
>
> dont need one, use zone doubling
You can zone double Napco, the thing is for most installations the keypad
zones won't be used and with zone expanders it's an easy setup with any
brand
Robert L Bass
>
> 9600 = 750ma 2A alarm output
>
> RP1CAe2 Alpha = 100ma
It's 35mA with the backlight turned off.
> standard motion 30 to 50ma
Our favorite unit draws less than ~28mA.
With eight of each that's just over 500mA + 140mA for the panel comes to 640mA. The system is rated for standby current up to
1,400mA (1.4Amps) and alarm current up to 1,900mA (1.9Amps).
Any questions?
Robert L Bass
>> a single keypad for a remote partition.
>> Caddx cannot do that.
>
> Can too.
Oh, really? Care to state which Caddx keypad includes a 4-zone expander? [sound of silence follows]
> dont need one, use zone doubling
That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Don
>>> We're talking about the ability to use just
>>> a single keypad for a remote partition.
>>> Caddx cannot do that.
>>
>> Can too.
>
> Oh, really? Care to state which Caddx keypad includes a 4-zone expander?
> [sound of silence follows]
no balonium breath, read the first sentence written by u. were talking
about single kp for a remote partition. [try to keep up]
>
>> dont need one, use zone doubling
>
> That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
thats where u hook up zones for the partitions with networx. dont need no
high dollar keypad with zone expanders built in. although networx does have
a keypad with a wireless reciever built in.
Mark Leuck
> >> Let's do the arithmetic!
> >
> > 9600 = 750ma 2A alarm output
> >
> > RP1CAe2 Alpha = 100ma
>
> It's 35mA with the backlight turned off.
True but I alway figure worst case power draw
> > standard motion 30 to 50ma
>
> Our favorite unit draws less than ~28mA.
You assume he's using that, I suppose the cheapies work with your
installations
> With eight of each that's just over 500mA + 140mA for the panel comes to
640mA. The system is rated for standby current up to
> 1,400mA (1.4Amps) and alarm current up to 1,900mA (1.9Amps).
The 9600 is rated at 750ma standby, 2A alarm current, you only mentioned the
aux power supply later
> Any questions?
Not really
Mark Leuck
> >> We're talking about the ability to use just
> >> a single keypad for a remote partition.
> >> Caddx cannot do that.
> >
> > Can too.
>
> Oh, really? Care to state which Caddx keypad includes a 4-zone expander?
[sound of silence follows]
Read what he replied about again
Robert L Bass
> remote partition. [try to keep up]
You're just being argumentative. We both know you're wrong. You tried to compare a Caddx unit favorably to a far superior Napco
system. That won't work no matter how you pretend not to understand what I said.
Mark Leuck
> > were talking about single kp for a
> > remote partition. [try to keep up]
>
> You're just being argumentative. We both know you're wrong. You tried to
compare a Caddx unit favorably to a far superior Napco
> system. That won't work no matter how you pretend not to understand what
I said.
Not really, going by the pricing on your store
Caddx NX-8e 192-Zone fastpack with NX-148e alpha keypad $213 + NX2216E
16-Zone expander for $64, total = $277
Napco 9600 96-Zone panel $234 + RPiCAe2 alpha keypad with 4-zone expander =
$108, total $312
The Caddx panel is cheaper
Double the zones (192 to 96)
Far easier to keypad program
Has better download software
More choices in expansion modules
Can connect more keypads (32 to 15)
More choices in keypad models (You don't have to worry about mixing RP and K
with Caddx)
More than double the output current capability (2A compared to 750ma)
Better Contact ID/SIA reporting capability
alarman
js
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:E-ydnW9OoZU6H-fY...@comcast.com...
Don
Mark Leuck
3AM, after posting the message went back to sleep and just got up a minute
ago.
So I guess the answer is yes a lot
"alarman" <alarm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Syveh.16967$Zb5....@newsfe13.phx...
Mark Leuck
I forgot to mention
The NX-8e has a 512-event buffer whereas the 9600 has 255
The NX-8e has 240 user codes whereas the 9600 has 96
The 9600 is a good panel however it's outclassed by the NX
Roland Moore
technical merits and not by the effects that the parent company has on the
rest of the alarm industry.
As a practical matter aren't you guys talking about a panel line that I
believe technically doesn't exist anymore? I thought that it is called
NetworX since GE put the cash on the table. You know, the same ones that are
doing more to change the industry to the way they want it to be; more than
any other big company to date that has bought itself into the business. Now
if someone needs to post a login in to that site remember their warning. You
may get sent to bed without dinner again.
Certain content on the Web site is intended only for use
by licensed alarm installation companies and security
professionals. We cannot support or are not liable for
its use by homeowners or other unauthorized users.
No wait, I forgot. It is more important for some folks here to nag Bass
about some stupid login in rather than look at the big picture and see what
this monster company is doing to this industry. It is mostly by accidental
blunder so far, but it still looks like a cross between Godzilla loose in
Tokyo and Saddam leaving Kuwait. Kind of like their site being so unattended
and just left with errors and broken links; with a 'if you don't like it,
too bad' type attitude. But if these monster companies ever get serious, as
one of Bass' more famous digs at his detractors goes could turn prophetic
instead, and we could all end up just being clerks somewhere.
Remember to GE all gear is the same. They always say they can do what anyone
else can. The GE mantra is that the only thing that should matter to you as
dealer or integrator, as well as the customer, is that they're GE.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:E-ydnW9OoZU6H-fY...@comcast.com...
>
Don
I have used the keypad zones on a napco. Was wierd running all those wires
to keypad. Both brands are good, Networx is easier to work with and more
for your $ & GE is catching on. The website is good now. Still can't find
the old dos software for the ranger series on there though. The future is
bright. :)
Mark Leuck
I wish they'd merge the ranger panels into the Windows software
Mark Leuck
"Roland Moore" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:bkBeh.3298$qp1....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I am glad that some here have the luxury of judging products by their
> technical merits and not by the effects that the parent company has on the
> rest of the alarm industry.
Yes I often ponder the potential evils, political leanings, charity
contributions, sexual preferences of the manufacturer, doesn't everyone?
> As a practical matter aren't you guys talking about a panel line that I
> believe technically doesn't exist anymore? I thought that it is called
> NetworX since GE put the cash on the table.
True however I will always refer to the GE brands as ITI and Caddx for the
following reasons
1. It's easier to sort my pdf documents than to put them into one big GE
folder
2. It easier to provide tech support when they still branded them by the old
names
3. I like the names Caddx and ITI, I grew up in the industry with them
4.
BTW: I do the same with Honeywell/Apex/Ademco/FBI for the same reason
> You know, the same ones that are
> doing more to change the industry to the way they want it to be; more than
> any other big company to date that has bought itself into the business.
So whats wrong with that? Every company shapes it's industry unless you
think they are evil......if thats the case they will be knocking on your
door soon troublemaker
> Now
> if someone needs to post a login in to that site remember their warning.
You
> may get sent to bed without dinner again.
And you'll sit there thinking more bogus reasons why it's semi-okay to do it
> No wait, I forgot. It is more important for some folks here to nag Bass
> about some stupid login in rather than look at the big picture and see
what
> this monster company is doing to this industry.
Hey another bogus reason!
> It is mostly by accidental
> blunder so far, but it still looks like a cross between Godzilla loose in
> Tokyo and Saddam leaving Kuwait. Kind of like their site being so
unattended
> and just left with errors and broken links; with a 'if you don't like it,
> too bad' type attitude.
I haven't seen a broken link on the site in ages, if anything Honeywell has
vastly improved on Ademco's old site (not that it was bad).
You seem to be on their sites a lot considering what they supposedly do to
the industry
> But if these monster companies ever get serious, as
> one of Bass' more famous digs at his detractors goes could turn prophetic
> instead, and we could all end up just being clerks somewhere.
Ahh the infamous Walmart scare tactic, it holds no water.
Speaking of massive conglomerates getting into the alarm industry what
happened to them?
1. AT&T (8000...enough said)
2. Sprint (FonSafe anyone?)
3. Telcoms (big 0)
4. Power companies (late 1990's, caused massive consolidation and more
business for small companies)
> Remember to GE all gear is the same. They always say they can do what
anyone
> else can. The GE mantra is that the only thing that should matter to you
as
> dealer or integrator, as well as the customer, is that they're GE.
And if you don't like it you can....you can.....hey go to Napco, Honeywell,
Visonic, DSC, Linear.....did I leave anyone out?
Frank Olson
Paradox...
Frank Olson
[sound of silence follows]
This is a text medium. There is no "sound of silence", but if there
was, it would be deafening when you "listen" for your rather obvious
non-reply to a few posts from FIRETEK and Bob Worthy.
Roland Moore
> contributions, sexual preferences of the manufacturer, doesn't everyone?
unusual that the good will these companies had would still carry over to GE.
The things you mention about political leaning and such aren't important to
me and probably aren't important to anyone but to GE and its shareholders.
What is important are things unique to GE and the GE marketing strategy.
According to GE, when it finished its latest round of purchases it was left
with over 1300 dealers to support. That is the way this industry was
founded, more or less, was with smaller dealers; but GE doesn't want to
offer support to maintaining that marketing structure within this industry.
GE's idea is to knock that 1300 it has down to 200 and then to 100. As one
of the dealers that was unexpectedly chopped off, I can tell you that it did
cause problems. I am not saying that GE was evil, up to no good, etc. I am
just pointing out that to date their actions have had a negative impact,
especially on smaller dealers. The GE marketing plan is important not just
to 100 dealers GE plans to have left standing, it is important to other non
GE dealers because of the way GE plans to support those 100 dealers against
competing dealers supporting other vendors. You can pretend that this would
not ever bother you if you like. I believe it will be something to plan for
on every large job that GE gets involved with as a competitor against you.
Your thought process is 2 dimensional if you think it is just GE with there
box of widgets versus another dealer and his or her box of widgets. The GE
guy is going to compete with you on the price point of the products, further
discounted by the amount of non alarm GE product volume the end user
purchases, and the total financial picture. When the deal is done with a GE
dealer, it might just take a signature with no cash or percentage down, no
draw schedule etc. That GE dealer's effort will be financed end to end and
on both sides by GE, at the same time GE is selling the gear to the dealer
and end user at price points you could only dream about. GE wants its 100
dealers to prosper, and it may be at your expense. When a successful GE
dealer (a.k.a. strategic partner) lands in your backyard how many extra bids
per month are you going to have to do to keep the same level of workload?
How much will your margins have to decrease to meet the competition? How
will your relationship with your bank be changed when you suddenly need a
lot more working capital to offer a GE type deal to customers just to remain
competitive? In short, GE wishes to create a dealer network consisting of
high parts volume dealers, working in protected areas and to integrate those
dealers' efforts into all other product lines GE offers, using aggressive
pricing and financing as the marketing weapons of choice.
> So whats wrong with that? Every company shapes it's industry unless you
> think they are evil......if thats the case they will be knocking on your
> door soon troublemaker
small end of a David and Goliath type struggle. I don't have to like being
thrown into the fray, nor do I have to support the adversary by continuing
to purchase GE gear. There is nothing wrong with that either.
>And you'll sit there thinking more bogus reasons why it's semi-okay to do
>it
said I would not chose to do it. I did say I thought it was no big deal.
> You seem to be on their sites a lot considering what they supposedly do to
> the industry
worse, leave it empty.
> Speaking of massive conglomerates getting into the alarm industry what
> happened to them?
> 1. AT&T (8000...enough said)
> 2. Sprint (FonSafe anyone?)
> 3. Telcoms (big 0)
> 4. Power companies (late 1990's, caused massive consolidation and more
> business for small companies)
than any of these companies you list and two it is involved in many types of
business activities, and it is not focused or identified with just a single
industry. GE is not using a marketing strategy in any way similar to these
companies either. GE has not really taken their marketing effort in this
industry all that seriously just yet, the guys at the top might not even
realize yet that they own a big chunk of the security industry. I am
thankful for that. If they can cause all of this trouble accidentally, I
don't want to be on the other end of the focus of their serious efforts. I
suspect no one that posts here does.
> And if you don't like it you can....you can.....hey go to Napco,
> Honeywell,
> Visonic, DSC, Linear.....did I leave anyone out?
Electric, SK and many more.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qKSdna-Mk-7BmObY...@comcast.com...
Mark Leuck
> > Yes I often ponder the potential evils, political leanings, charity
> > contributions, sexual preferences of the manufacturer, doesn't everyone?
> GE purchased wholesale many previously independent manufacturers. It is
not
> unusual that the good will these companies had would still carry over to
GE.
> The things you mention about political leaning and such aren't important
to
> me and probably aren't important to anyone but to GE and its shareholders.
> What is important are things unique to GE and the GE marketing strategy.
> According to GE, when it finished its latest round of purchases it was
left
> with over 1300 dealers to support. That is the way this industry was
> founded, more or less, was with smaller dealers; but GE doesn't want to
> offer support to maintaining that marketing structure within this
industry.
> GE's idea is to knock that 1300 it has down to 200 and then to 100. As one
> of the dealers that was unexpectedly chopped off, I can tell you that it
did
> cause problems. I am not saying that GE was evil, up to no good, etc. I am
> just pointing out that to date their actions have had a negative impact,
I don't see how, assuming the above is true those dealers went to other
companies, nature abhores a vacuum.
> especially on smaller dealers. The GE marketing plan is important not just
> to 100 dealers GE plans to have left standing, it is important to other
non
> GE dealers because of the way GE plans to support those 100 dealers
against
> competing dealers supporting other vendors. You can pretend that this
would
> not ever bother you if you like. I believe it will be something to plan
for
> on every large job that GE gets involved with as a competitor against you.
It still doesn't bother me
> Your thought process is 2 dimensional if you think it is just GE with
there
> box of widgets versus another dealer and his or her box of widgets. The GE
> guy is going to compete with you on the price point of the products,
further
> discounted by the amount of non alarm GE product volume the end user
> purchases, and the total financial picture. When the deal is done with a
GE
> dealer, it might just take a signature with no cash or percentage down, no
> draw schedule etc. That GE dealer's effort will be financed end to end and
> on both sides by GE, at the same time GE is selling the gear to the dealer
> and end user at price points you could only dream about. GE wants its 100
> dealers to prosper, and it may be at your expense. When a successful GE
> dealer (a.k.a. strategic partner) lands in your backyard how many extra
bids
> per month are you going to have to do to keep the same level of workload?
I forgot to mention my company is one of the largest if not THE largest in
the nation, this has nothing to do with my opinion. I deal with GE and
Honeywell on a daily basis and all I can say is your opinion is incorrect
> How much will your margins have to decrease to meet the competition? How
> will your relationship with your bank be changed when you suddenly need a
> lot more working capital to offer a GE type deal to customers just to
remain
> competitive?
We take no working capital from GE
>In short, GE wishes to create a dealer network consisting of
> high parts volume dealers, working in protected areas and to integrate
those
> dealers' efforts into all other product lines GE offers, using aggressive
> pricing and financing as the marketing weapons of choice.
Well so far they have been doing a miserable job if that is the goal
> There is nothing wrong with what GE is doing. I don't like being on the
very
> small end of a David and Goliath type struggle.
> I don't have to like being
> thrown into the fray, nor do I have to support the adversary by continuing
> to purchase GE gear. There is nothing wrong with that either.
Gee for not seeing anything wrong you sure see a lot of things wrong, do you
have a solid opinion on ANYTHING?
> > Speaking of massive conglomerates getting into the alarm industry what
> > happened to them?
> > 1. AT&T (8000...enough said)
> > 2. Sprint (FonSafe anyone?)
> > 3. Telcoms (big 0)
> > 4. Power companies (late 1990's, caused massive consolidation and more
> > business for small companies)
> GE is different than any companies you mention. For one it is much larger
> than any of these companies you list and two it is involved in many types
of
> business activities, and it is not focused or identified with just a
single
> industry. GE is not using a marketing strategy in any way similar to these
> companies either. GE has not really taken their marketing effort in this
> industry all that seriously just yet, the guys at the top might not even
> realize yet that they own a big chunk of the security industry. I am
> thankful for that. If they can cause all of this trouble accidentally, I
> don't want to be on the other end of the focus of their serious efforts. I
> suspect no one that posts here does.
And what you can't seem to understand is GE like those previously mentioned
companies also faces problems of their own, Big companies like that tend
over a long period of time to misread the market, react slowly and get out
when the going gets tough. GE and Honeywell have a lot of irons in the fire,
security is just one and both companies have a completely different way of
doing business. I deal with them every day
> > And if you don't like it you can....you can.....hey go to Napco,
> > Honeywell,
> > Visonic, DSC, Linear.....did I leave anyone out?
> Yes, a bunch. Aleph, Bosch, DMP, Electronics Line, HAI, Inovonics, Potter
> Electric, SK and many more.
Exactly!
G. Morgan
wrote:
>I forgot to mention my company is one of the largest if not THE largest in
>the nation, this has nothing to do with my opinion. I deal with GE and
>Honeywell on a daily basis and all I can say is your opinion is incorrect
Actually I think yours is the dreaded #4.
Why is there no #4?
Frank Olson
> Actually I think yours is the dreaded #4.
>
> Why is there no #4?
>
>
>
It's as high as Mike can count.
Roland Moore
>the nation, this has nothing to do with my opinion. I deal with GE and
If you're a large company it is less likely that you would have the same
issues as a smaller company in competing with the likes of GE or Honeywell.
>Well so far they have been doing a miserable job if that is the goal.
I agree, but if they ever start doing a good job it could make things at
least a little tougher, at worst a lot tougher.
> There is nothing wrong with what GE is doing. I don't like being on the
very
> small end of a David and Goliath type struggle.
> I don't have to like being
> thrown into the fray, nor do I have to support the adversary by continuing
> to purchase GE gear. There is nothing wrong with that either.
>Gee for not seeing anything wrong you sure see a lot of things wrong, do
> >you have a solid opinion on ANYTHING?
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, I meant there is nothing wrong with GE
chasing their own interests, and at the same time nothing wrong with me as a
competitor not liking what they are doing when it impacts me.
> And what you can't seem to understand is GE like those previously
> mentioned
> companies also faces problems of their own, Big companies like that tend
> over a long period of time to misread the market, react slowly and get out
> when the going gets tough. GE and Honeywell have a lot of irons in the
> fire,
> security is just one and both companies have a completely different way of
> doing business. I deal with them every day.
I hope their size helps them to continue to get in there own way.
>> Yes, a bunch. Aleph, Bosch, DMP, Electronics Line, HAI, Inovonics, Potter
>> Electric, SK and many more.
>
> Exactly!
None of the other companies mentioned is the size of GE and has a go to
market plan like GE. I see that plan as trouble. You seem to think that they
can never get it together and follow their own plan, or will simply change
it for no reason. I don't know which is right. I know that it is right for a
small company like ours not connected with GE to have some concerns. GE has
hurt the company I work with. Until I see GE as a company that clearly helps
my company, I am unlikely to go out of my way to help support them.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1padnSBSre25_ubY...@comcast.com...
G. Morgan
<Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote:
>It's as high as Mike can count.
ouch! :-)
Mark Leuck
"G. Morgan" <alar...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:dlsmn29dkmqu727sc...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:30:19 -0600, "Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I forgot to mention my company is one of the largest if not THE largest
in
> >the nation, this has nothing to do with my opinion. I deal with GE and
> >Honeywell on a daily basis and all I can say is your opinion is incorrect
>
>
> Actually I think yours is the dreaded #4.
>
> Why is there no #4?
No that was #5 sorry
Mark Leuck
> >I forgot to mention my company is one of the largest if not THE largest
in
> >the nation, this has nothing to do with my opinion. I deal with GE and
> >Honeywell on a daily basis and all I can say is your opinion is
incorrect.
>
> If you're a large company it is less likely that you would have the same
> issues as a smaller company in competing with the likes of GE or
Honeywell.
I'm still missing the point, even if GE or Honeywell lowballs the industry
(which they aren't) you have plenty of choices, you act like you just have
no other choice but to sit back and take it
>
> >Well so far they have been doing a miserable job if that is the goal.
>
> I agree, but if they ever start doing a good job it could make things at
> least a little tougher, at worst a lot tougher.
What you fail to recognize is the ability of these large companies to fuel
more innovation in regards to panels, expansion modules etc, I know several
instances where either ITI/Caddx or Ademco couldn't put out equipment back
in ye ole days that they can now.
DSC would be dead without Tyco, you will likely never realize the benefits
these big bad companies have done for you
> > thrown into the fray, nor do I have to support the adversary by
continuing
> > to purchase GE gear. There is nothing wrong with that either.
> >Gee for not seeing anything wrong you sure see a lot of things wrong, do
> > >you have a solid opinion on ANYTHING?
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, I meant there is nothing wrong with GE
> chasing their own interests, and at the same time nothing wrong with me as
a
> competitor not liking what they are doing when it impacts me.
Thats fine but you sure like whining about it
>
> > And what you can't seem to understand is GE like those previously
> > mentioned
> > companies also faces problems of their own, Big companies like that tend
> > over a long period of time to misread the market, react slowly and get
out
> > when the going gets tough. GE and Honeywell have a lot of irons in the
> > fire,
> > security is just one and both companies have a completely different way
of
> > doing business. I deal with them every day.
>
> I hope their size helps them to continue to get in there own way.
Time will tell on that, large companies tend to get too stuck in their ways
and faulter like IBM, Sears, GM and Ford
>
> >> Yes, a bunch. Aleph, Bosch, DMP, Electronics Line, HAI, Inovonics,
Potter
> >> Electric, SK and many more.
> >
> > Exactly!
>
> None of the other companies mentioned is the size of GE and has a go to
> market plan like GE. I see that plan as trouble. You seem to think that
they
> can never get it together and follow their own plan,
No I'm saying I doubt those plans have or ever will affect you because of
the way the market tends to work over time
> it for no reason. I don't know which is right. I know that it is right for
a
> small company like ours not connected with GE to have some concerns. GE
has
> hurt the company I work with. Until I see GE as a company that clearly
helps
> my company, I am unlikely to go out of my way to help support them.
Which is the real reason why it doesn't matter to you if RLB posts passwords
to their sites or not, deep down you flat out just don't like the company
and therefore it is okay
Roland Moore
> more innovation in regards to panels, expansion modules etc, I know
> several
> instances where either ITI/Caddx or Ademco couldn't put out equipment back
> in ye ole days that they can now.
>
> DSC would be dead without Tyco, you will likely never realize the benefits
Certainly you aren't serious! You have to be trying to pull me leg on this.
Let's see TYCO takes over and gets rid of the (more or less) forever
warranty policy on panels. Then it refuses to fix panels. Then it shortens
the warranty period on the panels. Yes that really helped me. Thanks TYCO.
Boy was I ever stupid to ever think otherwise.
Then TYCO dumps product lines without warning (all of Communiqué for
example) and then won't fix them. CP-01 comes out and now I can only sell
three panels that DSC makes, that is the 1616, 1832 1864, which are all
really the exact same base panel, just with different chipsets. MAXSYS is
going to be back in a couple of years 'maybe' even though they've know about
CP-01 coming for several years already. Yes that "shows more innovation in
regards to panels". Yes, thanks again TYCO! Oh I forgot to mention that of
those few DSC panels I can use now, some of those have been recalled
already, and I've yet to get the replacements promised, even after crawling
up the factory boys ass in a face to face twice already. They say they are
having trouble with their new on line system and their own factory accounts
are locked up. Man you're right. 'I will likely never realize the benefits
these big bad companies have done for me.' DSC would be dead without Tyco?
Or perhaps TYCO's running of DSC will kill it. I guess, even as big as you
say you are, you're not an AD, Kantech, CEM or Software House dealer. If so
you couldn't have missed the letters the TYCO accounting office sends out
when they get low on cash. It is almost funny to read them. Most of them say
(more or less) we know you're not late but please send cash by XXX date. I
like it when a big company has a cash flow problem and they, in turn, try to
make it mine too. Way to share! If I keep paying invoices early maybe Dennis
will send me an invite to the next Toga party when he gets out.
> Time will tell on that, large companies tend to get too stuck in their
> ways
> and falter like IBM, Sears, GM and Ford.
Maybe it's time to add TYCO to that list too.
Aren't you from Canada? I hear the weed is really powerful and almost legal
there. If it's not too cold you might want to open a window now and then,
because through all that smoke, ironically enough, Bass' point of view is
getting clearer all the time.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:W6OdnaAH34UzE-bY...@comcast.com...
Frank Olson
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 02:40:04 GMT, Frank Olson
> <Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It's as high as Mike can count.
>
>
>
> ouch! :-)
>
>
Pardon me. He can count to "25". ;-)
Mark Leuck
I'm well aware of all this and it has nothing to do with what I was talking
about which was that DSC was in financial trouble when Tyco bought them
> > Time will tell on that, large companies tend to get too stuck in their
> > ways
> > and falter like IBM, Sears, GM and Ford.
>
> Maybe it's time to add TYCO to that list too.
> Aren't you from Canada? I hear the weed is really powerful and almost
legal
> there. If it's not too cold you might want to open a window now and then,
> because through all that smoke, ironically enough, Bass' point of view is
> getting clearer all the time.
Why would you think I live in Canada?
Robert L Bass
Yes, and it shows in the way they built it.
>> Far easier to keypad program
I don't keypad program alarms. That is why God gave us the PC.
>> Has better download software
Not a chance.
>> More choices in expansion modules
Where's the keypad with built-in expander?
>> More choices in keypad models
Yes, Caddx still offers lots of ugly LED keypads. Imagine trying to teach a customer to use a 32-zone LED keypad.
>> (You don't have to worry about mixing RP and K with Caddx)
Well, since Caddx doesn't offer RP or K series keypads that's a given. :^)
>> More than double the output current capability
>> (2A compared to 750ma)
Actually, the P9600's maximum current is 1.9Amps.
>> Better Contact ID/SIA reporting capability
Napco's CID and SIA work perfectly.
Robert L Bass
You've pretty much summed it up. These guys don't care about out industry. They're so hung up on trying to argue that they miss
the point.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
> I am glad that some here have the luxury of judging products by their technical merits and not by the effects that the parent
Roland Moore
> talking
If you knew all this and still thought it was a good thing that TYCO took
over I sure don't want to be around for the stuff that is bad in you're
view.
I don't know what shape DSC was in financially prior to the TYCO purchase. I
knew several of the reps back then and they never said or acted like
anything was wrong. They were still driving their Lexus cars around so I was
never aware of any problems. Being a private company at the time meant they
didn't have to disclose that information. Even if DSC was in trouble back
then, it still doesn't change the fact that things still haven't improved
for me in any way under TYCO's ownership of DSC (or CEM, or Kantech, or
Software House, or AD). But I guess you're going to tell me how wrong I am
about that too.
> Why would you think I live in Canada?
I guess it would bug me too if someone thought I was Canadian. That is not
what I am "aboat". I thought I smelled a puff of something coming through
the screen when I read those posts of yours. I know our northern neighbors
don't like passing laws against that roll your own stuff, so I thought maybe
you were up there sparking up. It was the only thing I could come up with at
the time to explain or make any sense out of what you were posting. Notre
principal outil pour communiquer. On peut donc s'en servir comme étalon afin
de jauger d'autres moyens de communication.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5-mdnRCOTLNYaebY...@comcast.com...
Mark Leuck
> >> The Caddx panel is cheaper
>
> Yes, and it shows in the way they built it.
Nice how you talk so about the equipment you sell, at least with Caddx you
can put multiple expanders in the same box
> >> Far easier to keypad program
>
> I don't keypad program alarms. That is why God gave us the PC.
Yes and it will be quite amusing if you have to program one and don't have a
PC, to me not knowing how to do even the basics of keypad programming shows
ignorance in my opinion
"The panel isn't connected to a phone line sir? uhh....."
> >> Has better download software
>
> Not a chance.
Much easier to use, doesn't require full screen, nicer menus etc
> >> More choices in expansion modules
>
> Where's the keypad with built-in expander?
I never claimed one did, having the expander in the keypad only adds to the
cost if it's not used and in this day and age of bus expanders it's not a
big deal having one
> >> More choices in keypad models
>
> Yes, Caddx still offers lots of ugly LED keypads. Imagine trying to teach
a customer to use a 32-zone LED keypad.
Thats a matter of perception, they have more fixed english and LCD's than
LED's, Napco needs to step up with this
> >> More than double the output current capability
> >> (2A compared to 750ma)
>
> Actually, the P9600's maximum current is 1.9Amps.
If thats so they don't list it in any manuals I've seen
> >> Better Contact ID/SIA reporting capability
>
> Napco's CID and SIA work perfectly.
Cool, try sending water level, low and high temp, freeze, sprinkler,
mnedical etc, can't with Napco.
Someday Napco will catch up
Mark Leuck
> > I'm well aware of all this and it has nothing to do with what I was
> > talking
> > about which was that DSC was in financial trouble when Tyco bought
>them.
>
> If you knew all this and still thought it was a good thing that TYCO took
> over I sure don't want to be around for the stuff that is bad in you're
> view.
I never said it was a good thing that Tyco bought them in fact I'd rather
another company would have (Honeywell was looking at buying them a while
back). We were a large DSC company until Tyco bought them, can't go funding
a competitor ya know
> I don't know what shape DSC was in financially prior to the TYCO purchase.
I
> knew several of the reps back then and they never said or acted like
> anything was wrong.
They never will say that
> They were still driving their Lexus cars around so I was
> never aware of any problems. Being a private company at the time meant
they
> didn't have to disclose that information. Even if DSC was in trouble back
> then, it still doesn't change the fact that things still haven't improved
> for me in any way under TYCO's ownership of DSC (or CEM, or Kantech, or
> Software House, or AD). But I guess you're going to tell me how wrong I am
> about that too.
All I can tell you is Tyco dumped millions into improving and expanding
production which is the primary reason why ADT still uses Honeywell panels
> > Why would you think I live in Canada?
>
> I guess it would bug me too if someone thought I was Canadian. That is not
> what I am "aboat". I thought I smelled a puff of something coming through
> the screen when I read those posts of yours. I know our northern neighbors
> don't like passing laws against that roll your own stuff, so I thought
maybe
> you were up there sparking up. It was the only thing I could come up with
at
> the time to explain or make any sense out of what you were posting. Notre
> principal outil pour communiquer. On peut donc s'en servir comme étalon
afin
> de jauger d'autres moyens de communication.
Rolling your own stuff? ohhhkayyyyyy
Don
>
> Rolling your own stuff? ohhhkayyyyyy
where do you think he got the name?
Doug
Doug
--
"Roland Moore" <rol...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:ZDZeh.3242$GB1....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
ABLE_1
Off Topic. Now I do know that after the first 5 or 8 responses most threads
go off the deep end but really!!!!!!
Oh, BTW FWIW FYI I have decided to send out a notification with all my
Christmas Cards explaining some of the issues with VoIP, Digital Voice and
DSL to express my concerns to my customer base.
Now that we are back on topic. May this thread rest in peace.
.....................................................................................................................
G. Morgan
>> Rolling your own stuff? ohhhkayyyyyy
>
>where do you think he got the name?
Oh man -- *that's* funny. ;-)
Mark Leuck
I never looked at it that way :)
Roland Moore
>> anything was wrong.
> They never will say that
But they might be putting out feelers and looking for another job (like a
lot of guys at Radionics were doing prior to the ultimate DS and Bosch buy
out).
>All I can tell you is Tyco dumped millions into improving and expanding
>production which is the primary reason why ADT still uses Honeywell
> >panels.
ADT uses a lot of DSC here in this area. In fact that is all I have seen
them use here in the past couple of years.
> Rolling your own stuff? ohhhkayyyyyy
Take it from Clinton, weed is bad for you when you inhale it. I think it is
better to use it the way the drug dealers package it and eat it by the bale.
The down side is it takes hours and hours just to finish one and I still
haven't found a good dressing that I like.
"Mark Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:-6Gdncib1MPu4uHY...@comcast.com...