US & UK FIRE STANDARDS
Chris Wood
Can anyone help me with this one!
I work in the uk fire alarm installation buisiness, however I have been
requested by an American company to provide an F.M. approved, UL listed
control panel, which also complies to BS5839 pt4. After consultation
with my suppliers, who also export to the US, they say there is no such
animal because of the conflicts between the US & UK Standards.
However, 2 of my competitors say they can supply such a panel, which
leaves me at a bit of a loss!
Can anyone shed light on this subject or possibly let me know the
differences between the UK & US standards in respect to control panels.
Direct e-mails or posts to this thread will be much appreiciated.
--
Chris Wood
aa-2@deltanet.com@deltanet.com
In <3yotJbAt...@cal1.demon.co.uk>, Chris Wood <ch...@cal1.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Can anyone help me with this one!
>
>I work in the uk fire alarm installation buisiness, however I have been
>requested by an American company to provide an F.M. approved, UL listed
>control panel, which also complies to BS5839 pt4. After consultation
>with my suppliers, who also export to the US, they say there is no such
>animal because of the conflicts between the US & UK Standards.
>
>However, 2 of my competitors say they can supply such a panel, which
>leaves me at a bit of a loss!
>
>Can anyone shed light on this subject or possibly let me know the
>differences between the UK & US standards in respect to control panels.
I don't have a copy of the British Standards for fire alarm systems, so
I can't give you a specific answer on the differences between US and
UK standards. However, there are some US manufacturers who sell
their products in the UK, such as Radionics and Ademco. You might
want to contact their UK reps directly.
And I'm just curious: don't UK fire panels also require LPC certification?
Egil R. Orndal
>I don't have a copy of the British Standards for fire alarm systems, so
>I can't give you a specific answer on the differences between US and
>UK standards. However, there are some US manufacturers who sell
>their products in the UK, such as Radionics and Ademco. You might
>want to contact their UK reps directly.
>And I'm just curious: don't UK fire panels also require LPC certification?
In the UK there is no absolute requirements for LPCB (Loss Prevention
Certification Board) certification. Instead most players in the UK
market is able to get around this simply by stating that the fire
alarm equipment complies with the relevant British Standards without
having to actually having had the equipment tested by LPC (Loss
Prevention Council) or any other recognised test labs.
Most of the serious fire alarm companies will have had their equipment
both tested by LPC and certified by LPCB, but many don't ever bother
to do that. There are many reasons for that, for example that it is
very expensive to do the tests and get the equipement certified and
also that LPCB requires the company to have a documented QA system
that follows the ISO 9000 standards.
Getting equipment certified in the UK (as in the rest of Europe) is a
costly business and requires that the company that develop and
manufacture the equipment have the financial resources to go through
with it. Many of the smaller manufacturers simply don't have the money
to do that.
At this time there is a new set of European standards that are coming
through for fire alarm equipment. This is the EN-54 standard. This
standard is made up of many parts that covers different types of
equipment (e.g. part 2 the control panel, part 4 the power supply,
etc.) Some of these parts have already been agreed by all countries
(including the UK) while others are now in the final stages of
becoming a full blown standard. When this happens all Europena
countries will have the same standards and the national standards,
such as BS5839 part 4 will either have to be exactly the same as the
relevant part of the EN-54 standard or scrapped altogether.
The new European standards should also in theory make it possible to
have the equipment tested by a lab in for example Denmark and then
have the equipment certified in all other European countries based on
that test. In practice things don't work that way yet. Germany, France
and the UK which are the main contries in this work have managed to
get so many "options with requirements" included in the standard that
it is virtually impossible to get a fire alarm panel to comply with
all of them at the same time. Unfortunately this means that unless an
awful lot of work is put down in the development phase the panel is
unlikely to be acceptable in all of these countries even though it
complies with all the requirements in the EN-54 standard that the UK
require.
Still there are some positive developments. VdS (Germany), CNPP
(France) and the LPC have all agreed to recognise each others work.
This then means that a short cut have been created for getting
equipment that for example have been tested in the UK by LPC according
to the relevant EN-54 parts can be approved by the VdS in Germany
without needing to be re-tested in Germany. So far this works best for
detectors and equipment like that as there are few, if any, "options
with requirements" for this type of equipment. For the fire alarm
panels themselves it is still a problem that although VdS will
recognise the work carried out by LPC or CNPP they still require the
panel to have all the special options included that they have managed
to get included into EN-54 part 2.
The main difference between the UK and the rest of Europe (at least
Northern Europe) is that there are absolute requirements for the
equipment to have been tested and approved by a recognised body. It is
not enough in these countries to simply state that the equipment
complies with the requirements of the respective standards and
approvals bodies as is so often done in the UK.
aa-2@deltanet.com@deltanet.com
In <3LYvSCAH...@cslmalvern.demon.co.uk>, Alan Renforth <al...@cslmalvern.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Ademco sell fire products worldwide, however their US products are NOT
>sold in the UK as they do not meet LPC, BS and Draft EN standards. The
>main difference between UK and US product is that to meet UK standards
>the equipment must work at 24V. The products manufactured by Ademco UK
>are old technology not recommended.
Ademco does have 24 volt commercial fire alarm panels, UL listed and
FM approved, for sale in the US. I don't have a clue as to whether they're
sold in the UK or meet British standards. But I am curious about what
other differences there are between US and British standards for fire alarm
systems. Could one or more of you please comment on any major
differences you know of?
Chris Wood
In article <5bejdp$9...@news05.deltanet.com>, aa...@deltanet.com writes
>In <3yotJbAt...@cal1.demon.co.uk>, Chris Wood <ch...@cal1.demon.co.uk>
>writes:
>>Can anyone help me with this one!
>>
>>I work in the uk fire alarm installation buisiness, however I have been
>>requested by an American company to provide an F.M. approved, UL listed
>>control panel, which also complies to BS5839 pt4. After consultation
>>with my suppliers, who also export to the US, they say there is no such
>>animal because of the conflicts between the US & UK Standards.
>>
>>However, 2 of my competitors say they can supply such a panel, which
>>leaves me at a bit of a loss!
>>
>>Can anyone shed light on this subject or possibly let me know the
>>differences between the UK & US standards in respect to control panels.
>
>I can't give you a specific answer on the differences between US and
>UK standards. However, there are some US manufacturers who sell
>their products in the UK, such as Radionics and Ademco. You might
>want to contact their UK reps directly.
>
>And I'm just curious: don't UK fire panels also require LPC certification?
>
Not necessarily, As long as the panel complies with B.S. 5839 Pt 4, and
shortly EN54, it is OK to sell it. LPC certification is an optional
extra at the moment, but you will find that more and more consultants in
the UK are asking for this certifification with panels if they want to
be taken seriously.
However, manufacturers are somewhat slow on the uptake, due to the
expense involved. The company I work for just went through LPS1014
accreditation about 6 months ago, which cost many thousands of
pounds(and our MD is still waiting to see the return!).
Anyway one of the competitors I have mentioned in my previous posting is
ADT, which is indeed an American company, they are proposing to use a
Notifier addressable fire panel, which they claim is UL listed, FM
approved and complies to B.S. 589 Pt 4. I have my doupts.
--
Chris Wood
ZOGGGA
>Anyway one of the competitors I have mentioned in my previous posting is
>ADT, which is indeed an American company, they are proposing to use a
>Notifier addressable fire panel, which they claim is UL listed, FM
>approved and complies to B.S. 589 Pt 4. I have my doupts.
>--
>Chris Wood
I design Notifier alarm systems and it would not suprise me if they were.
The addressable panels they have (AFP Series) are UL, FM, MEA, California
Fire Marshall, City of Chicago, and even US Coast Guard approved for
marine
installation. I would have to see the British Standard to be sure though.
We have put them in every major Military Installation within my district
including Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas, and Kansas so the US Gov't
approves them as well.
Ben Randle -- Engineering Technician A&D Division
Grinnell Fire Protection Systems -- Tulsa
replies to -----------> fire...@juno.com
Arnie Bell
I've heard some bad things about the Notifier addressable panels from a
friend
who works for a large US defense contractor (who shall remain nameless).
I'd be interested in comments from anyone who's used them, especially
our friend from Grinnell, who presumably has no particular reason to
cover up the facts, as manufacturer's reps sometimes do.
The problems I've heard about seem to be related to the addressable
signalling bus. On one occasion, my friend operated a PIV and the
system functioned normally. On another occasion, operating the same
PIV generated waterflow alarms on multiple risers. Other equally weird
problems have occurred, some of which have resulted in the complete
evacuation of a very large manufacturing building at enormous cost.
I don't have any personal experience with this panel, so I can't give
you exact details. But I'm interested in your comments.
ZOGGGA
>I've heard some bad things about the Notifier addressable panels from a
>friend
>who works for a large US defense contractor (who shall remain nameless).
>I'd be interested in comments from anyone who's used them, especially
>our friend from Grinnell, who presumably has no particular reason to
>cover up the facts, as manufacturer's reps sometimes do.
Well listings are selling facts, hardly top secret stuff :)
We also like to use hefty conventional systems for military purposes.
System 5000 panels are used alot for US contracts by us.
>The problems I've heard about seem to be related to the addressable
>signalling bus. On one occasion, my friend operated a PIV and the
>system functioned normally. On another occasion, operating the same
>PIV generated waterflow alarms on multiple risers. Other equally weird
>problems have occurred, some of which have resulted in the complete
>evacuation of a very large manufacturing building at enormous cost.
Could be a number of things, which is always a problem when dealing
with data rather than conventional systems. Could be a progamming
problem if the program was changed between these two occurances.
If the PIV is mapped to the wrong zone or the MMX on the PIV is set
as a "waterflow" rather than a monitor.
The other problem we find most often when unexperienced people
install devices is wrong wire types or improper grounding. All SLC
data loops "should" have sheilded wire. Failure could cause many
problems with the data. Flourescent lights can really mess things up
when unsheilded wire is used.
A large manufacturing plant we deal with was completely botched up
by the installing contractor from another state. We took over when
they were having repeated problems and could not get service from the
people who put it in. Improper sheilds, grounds, and a host of wiring
problems caused this system to go crazy everytime a storm hit. So
my experience has been that good design and good installs tend to be
problem free after the initial bugs are cleared up. We usually have
pretty good luck with most of our addressable systems. But no system
is perfect.