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CCTV with Cat5 and what I've learned.
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Jim
Jan 18, 2013, 12:21:16 AM1/18/13
to
A few weeks ago I mentioned that I was doing my first CCTV install using Cat5 and Baluns. I think it was here (but maybe in other groups too) that it was touted as being less expensive to use Cat5 and Baluns compared to Coax Siamese etc.
This is what I learned:
12 cameras in a warehouse. Cameras draw 800ma max. Contrary to what the Balun people say their products will do ..... doing the calculations myself,(wire size, number of conductors, voltage drop, etc)theycouldn't/wouldn't
"guarantee" that the cameras would work at the distances their advertising said they would. Their estimates of video distance was not my concern but they had no idea that the Baluns could not carry camera "power" over the same distance. Since there are no outlets in the back of the warehouse (where most of the cameras are located) I had to use 24VAC supply with 1- amp output each channel because there was more than a 10% voltage drop at the furthest camera if I used 12VDC. $200.00 for power supply. Max safest distance to keep cameras at less than 10% voltage drop is somewhere around 150 to 200 feet. In order to do this, I had to inquire with the Balun mfgs/suppliers, how many of the Cat5 pairs were used to carry power. No one that I talked to knew. They "assumed" two pair were used for video and two pair for power. Two pair for power would not stay within voltage drop spec at 168feet. (my furthest run) So, I located Baluns with screw terminal connections, so I could use three Cat 5 pairs for power and one pair for video. So that elimiated using Baluns with RJ45 connectors and required more time to untwist, strip, twist pairs and connect wires to termials, then it would take to crimp an RJ45 connector for plugging into a RJ45 Balun. 12 Baluns @ $16.00 each plus shipping.
I also had to locate Baluns that had the power and video in/outputs on flying leads, because the Baluns with the BNC connectors attached would not all fit on the back of a 16 channel DVR if they had to be plugged directly into the connectors on the back of the DVR. But THEN .... even though you have flying leads, you also cannot have 12 Baluns hanging off of the back of a DVR by 6 inch leads. They have to be mounted elsewhere, out of sight. (I didn't think of this until later) When using Siamese coax, you just have to strip the power wires back and re-route them to the power supply and connect them directly to the terminals in the power supply and then continue the coax runs to the DVR and and crimp BNC's on them. When using the Baluns the Cat5 has to be run to where the Baluns are going to be located and untwisted, stripped, twisted in pairs and attached to the screw termials on the Baluns. Then, using the hard wire adapter power plugs, it's necessary to run additional wires from the Baluns back to the power supply. But now, since the Baluns are located "away" from the back of the DVR, it is necessary to manufacture BNC jumper cables from the video output of the Baluns to run between the location of the Baluns to the back of the DVR.
Behind the desk, mounted to the wall is a 12 x 12 x 4 inch plastic "juction" box containing the Baluns $15.00. Out of this box runs a group of power cables from the power supply (mounted next to the plastic junction box.) a group of Cat5 cables from the cameras and a group of BNC jumper cables going to the back of the DVR. BNC connectors 12X2 @ .59each $15.00
I don't know if I'm missing something (?) I don't know if I've gone overboard (?) but from what I see, with the additional parts and labor there's no F....ing way it's cheaper to do a Cat5 with Baluns CCTV job compared to a siamese wire job.
Comments please?
This is what I learned:
12 cameras in a warehouse. Cameras draw 800ma max. Contrary to what the Balun people say their products will do ..... doing the calculations myself,(wire size, number of conductors, voltage drop, etc)theycouldn't/wouldn't
"guarantee" that the cameras would work at the distances their advertising said they would. Their estimates of video distance was not my concern but they had no idea that the Baluns could not carry camera "power" over the same distance. Since there are no outlets in the back of the warehouse (where most of the cameras are located) I had to use 24VAC supply with 1- amp output each channel because there was more than a 10% voltage drop at the furthest camera if I used 12VDC. $200.00 for power supply. Max safest distance to keep cameras at less than 10% voltage drop is somewhere around 150 to 200 feet. In order to do this, I had to inquire with the Balun mfgs/suppliers, how many of the Cat5 pairs were used to carry power. No one that I talked to knew. They "assumed" two pair were used for video and two pair for power. Two pair for power would not stay within voltage drop spec at 168feet. (my furthest run) So, I located Baluns with screw terminal connections, so I could use three Cat 5 pairs for power and one pair for video. So that elimiated using Baluns with RJ45 connectors and required more time to untwist, strip, twist pairs and connect wires to termials, then it would take to crimp an RJ45 connector for plugging into a RJ45 Balun. 12 Baluns @ $16.00 each plus shipping.
I also had to locate Baluns that had the power and video in/outputs on flying leads, because the Baluns with the BNC connectors attached would not all fit on the back of a 16 channel DVR if they had to be plugged directly into the connectors on the back of the DVR. But THEN .... even though you have flying leads, you also cannot have 12 Baluns hanging off of the back of a DVR by 6 inch leads. They have to be mounted elsewhere, out of sight. (I didn't think of this until later) When using Siamese coax, you just have to strip the power wires back and re-route them to the power supply and connect them directly to the terminals in the power supply and then continue the coax runs to the DVR and and crimp BNC's on them. When using the Baluns the Cat5 has to be run to where the Baluns are going to be located and untwisted, stripped, twisted in pairs and attached to the screw termials on the Baluns. Then, using the hard wire adapter power plugs, it's necessary to run additional wires from the Baluns back to the power supply. But now, since the Baluns are located "away" from the back of the DVR, it is necessary to manufacture BNC jumper cables from the video output of the Baluns to run between the location of the Baluns to the back of the DVR.
Behind the desk, mounted to the wall is a 12 x 12 x 4 inch plastic "juction" box containing the Baluns $15.00. Out of this box runs a group of power cables from the power supply (mounted next to the plastic junction box.) a group of Cat5 cables from the cameras and a group of BNC jumper cables going to the back of the DVR. BNC connectors 12X2 @ .59each $15.00
I don't know if I'm missing something (?) I don't know if I've gone overboard (?) but from what I see, with the additional parts and labor there's no F....ing way it's cheaper to do a Cat5 with Baluns CCTV job compared to a siamese wire job.
Comments please?
E DAWSON
Jan 18, 2013, 2:51:22 AM1/18/13
to
Hi,
I would recommend a new balun supplier. There are baluns that fit in the
close configuration of the inputs in the back of the dvr, so you would not
need any dongles. I would also recommend that you look to purchase your
baluns directly from the "source"; that will take a lot of your current
costs out of the loop. $16 for each balun is like buying a gallon of milk
for $32... go to the source.
If you strip back each Cat5 so as to allow the one pair to hook up to the
video balun, then you channel the 3 remaining power pairs to your power
supply. You can group the power pairs from 4 or 8 cam wires to go neatly to
the power supply. You can use that flexible split black-plastic tubing to
make it look real neat. It can be purchased in different diameters to
accommodate your design...and it is cheap.
In order to protect the integrity of the video pair to each balun so that
the wire is not stressed in any way, you can also group the outer plastic
housing of the Cat5 from 2 to 4 cam wires by tie wrapping them together with
a stress lead that takes the brunt of any yanking that will surely happen
someday. The leads can be attached to the dvr directly on a housing screw if
needed.
So, the video pair out of the Cat5 outer sleeve is about 3-4 inches long,
and the power wire pairs are as long as you need them; 12, 24, or 36 inches.
There are no additional wires or leads involved or needed. The only
stripping of wiring is at the last half inch of the video pair... do bend it
back in half so that the screw terminal has a bigger bite of contact. Also,
the power pairs, as long as they are properly labeled, also only need to be
stripped at the screw terminals of the power supply.
I agree that coax feels a lot stronger, but there is a reason why the
internet goes thru Cat5 and not coax... cost and efficiency. Did you notice
that each pair in a Cat5 is twisted in a different way? The different twists
allow all those transmissions to least affect each adjoining pair.
Lets say that you have 2 cams somewhat close together, but at a distance
from the dvr. As long as you are within limits, one Cat5 can be run from one
cam to the other, and then to the dvr. Cam #1 can use red for power, and
blue for video. Then cam #2 can use brown for power, and green for video.
Now that should be much less cost for you than having to pay for two
separate siamese coax. At about $65/1000' for Cat5, I don't know how a coax
job could be cheaper. Even more, when the camera is much further and you
need all three pairs for power, it is still much cheaper to only need one
Cat5 per cam.
When you have an extremely long run, depending on the job, there is usually
some kind of electrical feed line in most buildings. Sometimes, it is worth
the cost to figure into the job of having an electrician install a simple
outlet for the power supply. Then you can use only one Cat5 for four
cameras. Just think of how much less copper there will be to buy.
I hope that this has helped you in some way to same money in the future.
"Jim" <alar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:253679e7-3b8e-4a5c...@googlegroups.com...
I would recommend a new balun supplier. There are baluns that fit in the
close configuration of the inputs in the back of the dvr, so you would not
need any dongles. I would also recommend that you look to purchase your
baluns directly from the "source"; that will take a lot of your current
costs out of the loop. $16 for each balun is like buying a gallon of milk
for $32... go to the source.
If you strip back each Cat5 so as to allow the one pair to hook up to the
video balun, then you channel the 3 remaining power pairs to your power
supply. You can group the power pairs from 4 or 8 cam wires to go neatly to
the power supply. You can use that flexible split black-plastic tubing to
make it look real neat. It can be purchased in different diameters to
accommodate your design...and it is cheap.
In order to protect the integrity of the video pair to each balun so that
the wire is not stressed in any way, you can also group the outer plastic
housing of the Cat5 from 2 to 4 cam wires by tie wrapping them together with
a stress lead that takes the brunt of any yanking that will surely happen
someday. The leads can be attached to the dvr directly on a housing screw if
needed.
So, the video pair out of the Cat5 outer sleeve is about 3-4 inches long,
and the power wire pairs are as long as you need them; 12, 24, or 36 inches.
There are no additional wires or leads involved or needed. The only
stripping of wiring is at the last half inch of the video pair... do bend it
back in half so that the screw terminal has a bigger bite of contact. Also,
the power pairs, as long as they are properly labeled, also only need to be
stripped at the screw terminals of the power supply.
I agree that coax feels a lot stronger, but there is a reason why the
internet goes thru Cat5 and not coax... cost and efficiency. Did you notice
that each pair in a Cat5 is twisted in a different way? The different twists
allow all those transmissions to least affect each adjoining pair.
Lets say that you have 2 cams somewhat close together, but at a distance
from the dvr. As long as you are within limits, one Cat5 can be run from one
cam to the other, and then to the dvr. Cam #1 can use red for power, and
blue for video. Then cam #2 can use brown for power, and green for video.
Now that should be much less cost for you than having to pay for two
separate siamese coax. At about $65/1000' for Cat5, I don't know how a coax
job could be cheaper. Even more, when the camera is much further and you
need all three pairs for power, it is still much cheaper to only need one
Cat5 per cam.
When you have an extremely long run, depending on the job, there is usually
some kind of electrical feed line in most buildings. Sometimes, it is worth
the cost to figure into the job of having an electrician install a simple
outlet for the power supply. Then you can use only one Cat5 for four
cameras. Just think of how much less copper there will be to buy.
I hope that this has helped you in some way to same money in the future.
"Jim" <alar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:253679e7-3b8e-4a5c...@googlegroups.com...
NickMark
Jan 18, 2013, 7:36:21 AM1/18/13
to
sp...@fullstrut.com
Jan 18, 2013, 6:43:00 PM1/18/13
to
What I might have done is run as many cat5's as needed JUST FOR VIDEO for all cams, then run ONE 18awg or larger from front to back of warehouse and mount the power supply up front and use the 18awg to transfer power to the rear and terminate it in a breakout box of some kind where you can then run "Local" power to each cam from your breakout box. Keeps the power run under control on heavier wire, no interference on video from power run in same cable jacket, and less over all cat5 cables to run.
Jim
Jan 19, 2013, 12:33:54 AM1/19/13
to
On Friday, January 18, 2013 2:51:22 AM UTC-5, E DAWSON wrote:
> Hi, I would recommend a new balun supplier. There are baluns that fit in the close configuration of the inputs in the back of the dvr, so you would not need any dongles. I would also recommend that you look to purchase your baluns directly from the "source"; that will take a lot of your current costs out of the loop. $16 for each balun is like buying a gallon of milk for $32... go to the source.
==========================
> Hi, I would recommend a new balun supplier. There are baluns that fit in the close configuration of the inputs in the back of the dvr, so you would not need any dongles. I would also recommend that you look to purchase your baluns directly from the "source"; that will take a lot of your current costs out of the loop. $16 for each balun is like buying a gallon of milk for $32... go to the source.
Thanks for the input.'
As a matter of fact, the cost of the baluns was $16.00 a PAIR ... so I don't think that was TOO bad. I was willing to pay the extra for the ability to choose how many conductors I could use for power by using screw terminals. I have to say, that after I got all the parts and started looking at it, I realized that I really didn't need to run the power THROUGH the baluns, I could have just connected the three pair of Cat5's to the power adapter plugs and just purchased video carrying baluns. How I came to my decision to buy the baluns that carried power and video came from originally looking at baluns that used RJ45 connectors that carried both power and video. I didn't look back from that point to figure out that I didn't actually NEED to run the power through the baluns.
I am aware of all that follows.
But thanks for the advice. Fortunately I had a lot of "wiggle" room price wise on this job which is the reason I used it as a shake down run for using Cat5 in the future. Even with all the "extras" I'll still get away without taking a loss.
Jim
Jan 19, 2013, 12:37:45 AM1/19/13
to
On Friday, January 18, 2013 7:36:21 AM UTC-5, NickMark wrote:
Thats all I run is cat 5 and baluns on CCTV jobs any more like dawson said matter of finding right combo of parts for job
Yep, That's what I had planned to do on this job...... find the right combination of parts and procedures.
Jim
Jan 19, 2013, 12:39:34 AM1/19/13
to
On Friday, January 18, 2013 6:43:00 PM UTC-5, sp...@fullstrut.com wrote:
> Thats all I run is cat 5 and baluns on CCTV jobs any more like dawson said matter of finding right combo of parts for job I agree with these 2 Jim. What I might have done is run as many cat5's as needed JUST FOR VIDEO for all cams, then run ONE 18awg or larger from front to back of warehouse and mount the power supply up front and use the 18awg to transfer power to the rear and terminate it in a breakout box of some kind where you can then run "Local" power to each cam from your breakout box. Keeps the power run under control on heavier wire, no interference on video from power run in same cable jacket, and less over all cat5 cables to run.
Good idea for the right job. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.
> Thats all I run is cat 5 and baluns on CCTV jobs any more like dawson said matter of finding right combo of parts for job I agree with these 2 Jim. What I might have done is run as many cat5's as needed JUST FOR VIDEO for all cams, then run ONE 18awg or larger from front to back of warehouse and mount the power supply up front and use the 18awg to transfer power to the rear and terminate it in a breakout box of some kind where you can then run "Local" power to each cam from your breakout box. Keeps the power run under control on heavier wire, no interference on video from power run in same cable jacket, and less over all cat5 cables to run.
sp...@fullstrut.com
Jan 19, 2013, 7:38:43 AM1/19/13
to
Message has been deleted
E DAWSON
Jan 20, 2013, 12:48:08 PM1/20/13
to
"G. Morgan" <seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote in message
news:kmulf8thq0ui17fkd...@Osama-is-dead.net...
> In a warehouse environment with the large lengths of cable I can see why
> you might be saying that it's not cost effective. If it were a 12 cam
> job with drop tile in a retail store (or home) it's definitely faster
> and cheaper with baluns. Think about this, you can use a flex bit to
> corner mount a camera just like a motion because the cable is so thin.
> All your wire running tricks from security come back into play with CAT5
> video. Try using a 3/8" flex bit to run siamese cable!
>
> As others have said, in the warehouse some guys will place the power
> supplies mid-run (wherever an outlet is convenient). You can strip back
> the outer jacket and inject power before it goes out to no-man's land.
> Makes it a pain to troubleshoot if you don't document where the power
> supplies are though. Since *you* are likely the one to service it, you
> may not need that level of documentation a big company has where a
> different tech may go out each time.
>
> I think you'll find baluns cheaper than $16/pair will do the job just
> fine. ADI sells them in a bag with two for half that. Also, if you
> plan for always using CAT5 in the future you may want to change the cams
> you buy. Some have built-in baluns. You can pre-build the head-end box
> at the shop to make the on site part go faster. I have not found the
> perfect way to mount baluns in the box yet, but with some trial & error
> and all the clips and stand-offs available I'm sure you can make a
> system that works for you. MCM Electronics has TONS of stuff like that.
> The catalog is 2" thick. And it's full of goodies for our trade -
> including audio.
>
> Anyway, how was the video quality? Any noticeable difference?
>
> <aside> I bought a Raspberry Pi mini-computer for $35 from MCM. It
> runs Debian Linux on a SD card. It has 15 I/O's and the possibilities
> are endless. Comes with 512M RAM and a HDMI & composite out, plus audio
> and network. If you like to tinker, get one!
>
> <aside 2> Someone asked where to get LCD screens about 6 months ago, MCM
> has them in all sizes.
>
>
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/
>
What I meant by buying video balums at $16/pair is like buying milk at
$32/gallon is this: milk costs about $4/gallon on average, so if you do the
ratio, balums should not cost you more than ???$/pair?
...ADI is not a source, they are at least 3 tiers away from being the
source.
Much profit is derived by companies who have effectively 'taught' their
customers what they should be paying for an item.
news:kmulf8thq0ui17fkd...@Osama-is-dead.net...
> you might be saying that it's not cost effective. If it were a 12 cam
> job with drop tile in a retail store (or home) it's definitely faster
> and cheaper with baluns. Think about this, you can use a flex bit to
> corner mount a camera just like a motion because the cable is so thin.
> All your wire running tricks from security come back into play with CAT5
> video. Try using a 3/8" flex bit to run siamese cable!
>
> As others have said, in the warehouse some guys will place the power
> supplies mid-run (wherever an outlet is convenient). You can strip back
> the outer jacket and inject power before it goes out to no-man's land.
> Makes it a pain to troubleshoot if you don't document where the power
> supplies are though. Since *you* are likely the one to service it, you
> may not need that level of documentation a big company has where a
> different tech may go out each time.
>
> I think you'll find baluns cheaper than $16/pair will do the job just
> fine. ADI sells them in a bag with two for half that. Also, if you
> plan for always using CAT5 in the future you may want to change the cams
> you buy. Some have built-in baluns. You can pre-build the head-end box
> at the shop to make the on site part go faster. I have not found the
> perfect way to mount baluns in the box yet, but with some trial & error
> and all the clips and stand-offs available I'm sure you can make a
> system that works for you. MCM Electronics has TONS of stuff like that.
> The catalog is 2" thick. And it's full of goodies for our trade -
> including audio.
>
> Anyway, how was the video quality? Any noticeable difference?
>
> <aside> I bought a Raspberry Pi mini-computer for $35 from MCM. It
> runs Debian Linux on a SD card. It has 15 I/O's and the possibilities
> are endless. Comes with 512M RAM and a HDMI & composite out, plus audio
> and network. If you like to tinker, get one!
>
> <aside 2> Someone asked where to get LCD screens about 6 months ago, MCM
> has them in all sizes.
>
>
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/
>
What I meant by buying video balums at $16/pair is like buying milk at
$32/gallon is this: milk costs about $4/gallon on average, so if you do the
ratio, balums should not cost you more than ???$/pair?
...ADI is not a source, they are at least 3 tiers away from being the
source.
Much profit is derived by companies who have effectively 'taught' their
customers what they should be paying for an item.
Jim
Jan 20, 2013, 7:31:55 PM1/20/13
to seal...@osama-is-dead.net
On Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:20:35 PM UTC-5, G. Morgan wrote:
In a warehouse environment with the large lengths of cable I can see why you might be saying that it's not cost effective. If it were a 12 cam job with drop tile in a retail store (or home) it's definitely faster and cheaper with baluns. Think about this, you can use a flex bit to corner mount a camera just like a motion because the cable is so thin. All your wire running tricks from security come back into play with CAT5 video. Try using a 3/8" flex bit to run siamese cable! As others have said, in the warehouse some guys will place the power supplies mid-run (wherever an outlet is convenient). You can strip back the outer jacket and inject power before it goes out to no-man's land. Makes it a pain to troubleshoot if you don't document where the power supplies are though. Since *you* are likely the one to service it, you may not need that level of documentation a big company has where a different tech may go out each time. I think you'll find baluns cheaper than $16/pair will do the job just fine. ADI sells them in a bag with two for half that. Also, if you plan for always using CAT5 in the future you may want to change the cams you buy. Some have built-in baluns. You can pre-build the head-end box at the shop to make the on site part go faster. I have not found the perfect way to mount baluns in the box yet, but with some trial & error and all the clips and stand-offs available I'm sure you can make a system that works for you. MCM Electronics has TONS of stuff like that. The catalog is 2" thick. And it's full of goodies for our trade - including audio. Anyway, how was the video quality? Any noticeable difference? <aside> I bought a Raspberry Pi mini-computer for $35 from MCM. It runs Debian Linux on a SD card. It has 15 I/O's and the possibilities are endless. Comes with 512M RAM and a HDMI & composite out, plus audio and network. If you like to tinker, get one! <aside 2> Someone asked where to get LCD screens about 6 months ago, MCM has them in all sizes. http://www.mcmelectronics.com/
Since I wrote the original post and got some feedback, I've done some more thinking and research and I'm zeroing in on a better way to do things.
In a warehouse environment with the large lengths of cable I can see why you might be saying that it's not cost effective. If it were a 12 cam job with drop tile in a retail store (or home) it's definitely faster and cheaper with baluns. Think about this, you can use a flex bit to corner mount a camera just like a motion because the cable is so thin. All your wire running tricks from security come back into play with CAT5 video. Try using a 3/8" flex bit to run siamese cable! As others have said, in the warehouse some guys will place the power supplies mid-run (wherever an outlet is convenient). You can strip back the outer jacket and inject power before it goes out to no-man's land. Makes it a pain to troubleshoot if you don't document where the power supplies are though. Since *you* are likely the one to service it, you may not need that level of documentation a big company has where a different tech may go out each time. I think you'll find baluns cheaper than $16/pair will do the job just fine. ADI sells them in a bag with two for half that. Also, if you plan for always using CAT5 in the future you may want to change the cams you buy. Some have built-in baluns. You can pre-build the head-end box at the shop to make the on site part go faster. I have not found the perfect way to mount baluns in the box yet, but with some trial & error and all the clips and stand-offs available I'm sure you can make a system that works for you. MCM Electronics has TONS of stuff like that. The catalog is 2" thick. And it's full of goodies for our trade - including audio. Anyway, how was the video quality? Any noticeable difference? <aside> I bought a Raspberry Pi mini-computer for $35 from MCM. It runs Debian Linux on a SD card. It has 15 I/O's and the possibilities are endless. Comes with 512M RAM and a HDMI & composite out, plus audio and network. If you like to tinker, get one! <aside 2> Someone asked where to get LCD screens about 6 months ago, MCM has them in all sizes. http://www.mcmelectronics.com/
Single baluns (that don't carry power too, are really inexpensive) For power on bigger jobs ...centrally locate power or ..... instead of using one big power source .... perhaps use two or divide power supplies in accoudence to where the cameras are located. If possible, use indivdual plug-in packs in nearby outlets too. I see that there are very inxepensive BNC connector jumper cables available ( I wouldn't like to wire Cat5 right up to the Baluns that are plugged directiy into the DVR) Stripping back longer lengths of the Cat5 for the runs to the power supply hadn't occured to me. That'll save some time.
I hadn't seen cameras with built in baluns but I'm pretty particular about the cameras I use and almost always use a varafocal lens. I'm using 700 line res cameras now with 100 foot IR. I know it's overkill but ..... If I could only convince more people to use higher res monitors instaead of an old TV or computer monitor just to save a few bucks. I got all the way to the end of this job ... didn't quote a monitor because he said he had one and he shows up with a 1990's era TV set. Jeeeeeeze.
With all the cameras showing on the screen it looks like a square bowl of tomato-maccaroni soup with black things floating in it. I'm going to bring a monitor with me next week when I turn it over to him .... to let him see the difference. What a F.... g idiot.
From what I can see there's still a lot of BS going on in the CCTV realm. No one that I can find is giving anyone the basic information on how to compare analog, IP, Digital, HD and megapixal cameras. As a matter of fact no one is even telling what the difference is between just IP and Megapixal. And, why is HD so expensive? Every one you talk to has a different definition and ultimately it's only their opinion or strictly biased in favor of whatever their product is on which is better and what is cost worthy and effective. All the vagueness simply prolongs the filtering out of which technology is going to be the next one to become reasonably priced. All to the manufacturers benefit .... of course. They reap the benefit of he inflated price now while the industry flounders around experimenting with each technology. And then they say.....
" I wonder why everyone is still using analog" duhhh!
E DAWSON
Jan 21, 2013, 1:06:41 AM1/21/13
to
I use the analogy of a brand new car, "Mustang" or whatever else you can
relate to, for the customer to more easily understand what is involved in
CCTV. You can explain all day to them what they should use, and they will
remember 1% of what you told them. But most folks understand that with a
nice new car body, that you need a proper size engine to go with it, and the
right transmission. It also needs a big enough gas tank to handle the need
of the engine. The windshield must be clear and clean. I think you get the
point and they usually get the point without understanding anything about
CCTV. You can translate yourself the parts of the car as to how they relate
to the CCTV.
If you use 700 LOR cams, but your recording is at CIF and 30FPS total for 4
cams, there will be no worthwhile evidence for the police. It's junk. You
might see a pretty picture if you have a great monitor, but you will have
worthless recording unless you have a dvr that records 30FPS per camera at
4CIF or D1...and now there is also 960H. After all, customers are getting
CCTV systems for the recording evidence, not to see how pretty everything is
on their screen...but then again, there are some that are just like that.
Megapixel cams come in all flavors. I do not want them in less than 25 fps.
The sensors from one company to the other, as well as the software
associated with each of them, will give you a totally different looking
picture. Arecont has better quality picture than Eyeq. I had a rep from them
that admitted that Arecont had much more better color spectrum.
Basically, we do not do any low quality systems for businesses...you will
look like a fool when the police need the footing. It sure is nice to hear
from them when they get good quality evidence "It's a rap".
There are websites that compare size and quality of recordings and
resolutions. Do a search and you should come up with proper information.
That is the best way to understand. Do not trust a 3rd party salesman,
neither the rep for the manufacturer. 4 years ago or so, I caught red-handed
Arecont Vision having fudged their website pictures for their 360deg cams. I
got a free 180deg cam from the rep for it...and those were not so cheap back
then. You almost have to buy for yourself different cams to be able to
properly compare them.
Pa_Bound
Jan 21, 2013, 8:11:11 AM1/21/13
to
>.... If I could only convince more people to use higher res monitors
>instaead of an old TV or computer monitor just > to save a few bucks. I got
>all the way to the end of this job ... didn't quote a monitor because he
>said he had one
> and he shows up with a 1990's era TV set. Jeeeeeeze.
Jim,
>instaead of an old TV or computer monitor just > to save a few bucks. I got
>all the way to the end of this job ... didn't quote a monitor because he
>said he had one
> and he shows up with a 1990's era TV set. Jeeeeeeze.
Would you mind sharing which mfg and model monitor you prefer to use??
Thanks,
Les
Jim
Jan 21, 2013, 2:18:29 PM1/21/13
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On Monday, January 21, 2013 8:11:11 AM UTC-5, Pa_Bound wrote:
> >.... If I could only convince more people to use higher res monitors >instaead of an old TV or computer monitor just > to save a few bucks. I got >all the way to the end of this job ... didn't quote a monitor because he >said he had one > and he shows up with a 1990's era TV set. Jeeeeeeze. Jim, Would you mind sharing which mfg and model monitor you prefer to use?? Thanks, Les
Hi Les,
> >.... If I could only convince more people to use higher res monitors >instaead of an old TV or computer monitor just > to save a few bucks. I got >all the way to the end of this job ... didn't quote a monitor because he >said he had one > and he shows up with a 1990's era TV set. Jeeeeeeze. Jim, Would you mind sharing which mfg and model monitor you prefer to use?? Thanks, Les
I'm not bound to any particular unit. Samsung seems to come up more often than others but I look at the specs and the price at the time I need a monitor. Depending upon if it's a 4, 8 or 16 camera job I'll either get a 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio screen, 19 to 26 inch, 6oo lines of res or greater, or 1280 or greater. I try to keep it in the $300 to $400.00 range. The problem is ... most end users see a computer monitor as being equal to a CCTV monitor, which they can buy at Staples for $129.00 .... and not being able to compare side by side .... that's what they usually opt for.
Of course all of this resolution talk is pretty supurfluous since typical DVR's don't come near the resolution that cameras and monitors can produce. Again, a failure of the manufacturers for not revealing the fact that they can produce a higher resolution DVR at a reasonable price..... and don't. I can buy a TIVO for $250.00 with 1080P resolution and with the low price of storage .... why don't they give the industry better quality?
However, I try to give the most that I can to my clients, for their money.
A while ago, one of my alarm customers asked me if I did CCTV. (for some reason he never put alarms systems and CCTV in the same category) He had purchased a CCTV system from some guy who walked in off the street. Four cameras and a DVR for $1000.00. From what I could see, the cameras were all fixed wide angle lens, mounted on the out side of the building. No monitor, had to be viewed on desktop computer linked throuh his network via the DVR. He said he hadn't been able to see the cameras for a long time and could I take a look at the DVR. Maybe I could get it repaired. Well, there wasn't a written mark on the DVR. No name, no serial number, no model number, no UL ..... no nothing. It was simply a throw away product. I'm guessing a Korean or Chinese, directly sold product.
He learned his lesson and now that he's moving to larger quarters, along with his alarm system, he's asked me to do an estimate on 18 cameras. We'll see how much he's willing to spend on quality.
Pa_Bound
Jan 21, 2013, 7:20:10 PM1/21/13
to
Would you mind sharing which mfg and model monitor you prefer to use??
Thanks, Les
Hi Les,
I'm not bound to any particular unit. Samsung seems to come up more often
than others but I look at the specs and the price at the time I need a
monitor. Depending upon if it's a 4, 8 or 16 camera job I'll either get a
4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio screen, 19 to 26 inch, 6oo lines of res or greater,
or 1280 or greater. I try to keep it in the $300 to $400.00 range. The
problem is ... most end users see a computer monitor as being equal to a
CCTV monitor, which they can buy at Staples for $129.00 .... and not being
able to compare side by side .... that's what they usually opt for.
Of course all of this resolution talk is pretty supurfluous since typical
DVR's don't come near the resolution that cameras and monitors can produce.
Again, a failure of the manufacturers for not revealing the fact that they
can produce a higher resolution DVR at a reasonable price..... and don't. I
can buy a TIVO for $250.00 with 1080P resolution and with the low price of
storage .... why don't they give the industry better quality?
Thanks for the input Jim. It may be useful some day for me and others that
Thanks, Les
Hi Les,
I'm not bound to any particular unit. Samsung seems to come up more often
than others but I look at the specs and the price at the time I need a
monitor. Depending upon if it's a 4, 8 or 16 camera job I'll either get a
4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio screen, 19 to 26 inch, 6oo lines of res or greater,
or 1280 or greater. I try to keep it in the $300 to $400.00 range. The
problem is ... most end users see a computer monitor as being equal to a
CCTV monitor, which they can buy at Staples for $129.00 .... and not being
able to compare side by side .... that's what they usually opt for.
Of course all of this resolution talk is pretty supurfluous since typical
DVR's don't come near the resolution that cameras and monitors can produce.
Again, a failure of the manufacturers for not revealing the fact that they
can produce a higher resolution DVR at a reasonable price..... and don't. I
can buy a TIVO for $250.00 with 1080P resolution and with the low price of
storage .... why don't they give the industry better quality?
are reading.
Have a good rest of the week.
Les
jenferdowson
Feb 28, 2013, 9:38:01 AM2/28/13
to
replying to Jim , jenferdowson wrote:
CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits
like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps
monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even
help prevent fire.
--
posted via
http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm
using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups
CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits
like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps
monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even
help prevent fire.
--
posted via
http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm
using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups
Jim
Feb 28, 2013, 6:17:55 PM2/28/13
to
On Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:38:01 AM UTC-5, jenferdowson wrote:
> replying to Jim , jenferdowson wrote: CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even help prevent fire. -- posted via http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups
Yeah ...... Sure.
> replying to Jim , jenferdowson wrote: CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even help prevent fire. -- posted via http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups
So your telling me that anyone with a hoodie of a ski mask isn't going to get away with what ever they want to do ??????
Oh ..... I get it. Maybe they could be identified if they walked around with their heads stuck up their ass, like you're doing.
And I'd sure like to see that camera that prevents fires.
sp...@fullstrut.com
Mar 2, 2013, 7:12:29 PM3/2/13
to
Jim
Mar 4, 2013, 2:16:33 PM3/4/13
to
On Saturday, March 2, 2013 7:12:29 PM UTC-5, sp...@fullstrut.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:17:55 PM UTC-5, Jim wrote: > On Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:38:01 AM UTC-5, jenferdowson wrote: > > > replying to Jim , jenferdowson wrote: CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even help prevent fire. -- posted via http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups > > > > Yeah ...... Sure. > > > > So your telling me that anyone with a hoodie of a ski mask isn't going to get away with what ever they want to do ?????? > > > > Oh ..... I get it. Maybe they could be identified if they walked around with their heads stuck up their ass, like you're doing. > > > > And I'd sure like to see that camera that prevents fires. Ummmm.....Actually Jim, Thermal Imaging Cameras can trigger Sprinklers. ;)
Actually ..... Thermal Imaging cameras detect fires (among other things) and trigger sprinklers.
> On Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:17:55 PM UTC-5, Jim wrote: > On Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:38:01 AM UTC-5, jenferdowson wrote: > > > replying to Jim , jenferdowson wrote: CCTV cameras in schools are much beneficial. Its provides various benefits like prevent petty unsavoury incidents in schools, prevents vandalism, helps monitor teacher performance and the can keep the place secure and can even help prevent fire. -- posted via http://forums.cabling-design.com/security-physical/cctv-with-cat5-and-what-i-ve-learned-62238-.htm using Cabling-Design's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to alt.security.alarms and other telecom groups > > > > Yeah ...... Sure. > > > > So your telling me that anyone with a hoodie of a ski mask isn't going to get away with what ever they want to do ?????? > > > > Oh ..... I get it. Maybe they could be identified if they walked around with their heads stuck up their ass, like you're doing. > > > > And I'd sure like to see that camera that prevents fires. Ummmm.....Actually Jim, Thermal Imaging Cameras can trigger Sprinklers. ;)
They cannot prevent fires.
michael...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2014, 10:31:27 AM4/24/14
to
michael...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2014, 10:40:07 AM4/24/14
to
On Friday, January 18, 2013 6:21:16 PM UTC+13, Jim wrote:
Jim
Apr 24, 2014, 10:07:52 PM4/24/14
to
On Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:40:07 AM UTC-4, michael...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 18, 2013 6:21:16 PM UTC+13, Jim wrote:
>
>
> I've been doing this a long time & if you do a little ground work you can make life easy & profitable. I can complete a 16 camera instal (average size premises) in one day. A few labor saving methods can make the instal a breeze, keep it all uniform, tidy & professional. By using pre-made 20 meter siamese cable 75-3 at US$4 + freight or 40 meter at US$6 from a decent manufacturer your winning. These cables are BC foil shielded & braided. The picture is no different than RG59. I don't think digital HD is going to prevail in the industry so you are best using 75-3 (minimum) as this cable can be used for the new HD-CVI systems available from Dahua both 720P & 1080P (brilliant leap) These systems & cameras are cheap, HD, far more functional than previous systems. At cost of 4ch with varifocal 2.8-12 m cams for under $200 total & 1Mp (720P) you'd be stupid to instal anything else. Please don't waste your time with cat5, it's not professional, it looks hacked, ridiculous for servicing or troubleshooting & it's far too labor intensive. a decent cctv cable 20m should weigh 600grams & 40m at least 1kg. All of your smart work is done in sourcing the cables, dvr's & cameras.
Yeah ...... sure ..... Cheaper is better ...... right?
> On Friday, January 18, 2013 6:21:16 PM UTC+13, Jim wrote:
>
>
> I've been doing this a long time & if you do a little ground work you can make life easy & profitable. I can complete a 16 camera instal (average size premises) in one day. A few labor saving methods can make the instal a breeze, keep it all uniform, tidy & professional. By using pre-made 20 meter siamese cable 75-3 at US$4 + freight or 40 meter at US$6 from a decent manufacturer your winning. These cables are BC foil shielded & braided. The picture is no different than RG59. I don't think digital HD is going to prevail in the industry so you are best using 75-3 (minimum) as this cable can be used for the new HD-CVI systems available from Dahua both 720P & 1080P (brilliant leap) These systems & cameras are cheap, HD, far more functional than previous systems. At cost of 4ch with varifocal 2.8-12 m cams for under $200 total & 1Mp (720P) you'd be stupid to instal anything else. Please don't waste your time with cat5, it's not professional, it looks hacked, ridiculous for servicing or troubleshooting & it's far too labor intensive. a decent cctv cable 20m should weigh 600grams & 40m at least 1kg. All of your smart work is done in sourcing the cables, dvr's & cameras.
And in one day you ( all by yourself) are going to run wires to all the cameras in a 50,000 sq ft factory with giant CNC machines running .... climbing over metal stock racks stacked 15 foot high along the walls, employees getting in your way, keeping out of the way of fork lifts, while moving ladders and Hi-lows down aisles, and setting up scaffolding inside and outside the building, mounting the cameras, setting varifocal lens, setting up multiple monitors, programing and setting up the networking of the DVR Yep ..... Uh-huh. Suuuuuure you are.
You must be the guy that sold one of my customers all Korean cheap crap with wires draped like clothes line all over the place. I do quality, long lasting, trouble free, total satisfaction custom installations in every thing I do. Cheap is cheap. Quality cost more. If someone can't afford what I charge then it's their loss. It's my reputation that keep me busy, not low prices.
doug
Apr 25, 2014, 12:31:32 AM4/25/14
to
<michael...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4d67a349-30a3-45ef...@googlegroups.com...
Doug
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