Working in an attic with no floor
rsalerno
joists, insulation, and the sheetrock ceiling of the rooms below.
There are *no* boards to walk on. What's safest way to work in a
situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
TIA,
Russ Salerno
rsal...@li.remove.net
Robert
boards in the past, but found that they were often more trouble than they
were worth.
One tip though. Use tennis shoes or work shoes with a very good noslip
sole, and get some flat face rubber knee pads with a non slip surface.
Together they will help you to stay on the boards and protect your knees.
Also watch for boards with a rotten or splintered edge. Those will act just
like stepping on a round rock if your foot is supported on the edge and dump
you through the ceiling.
--
Bob
The Security Consultant
rob...@digitaldune.net
icq# 17644285
rsalerno wrote in message <6vvr5m$9jq$1...@news01.li.net>...
Robert L Bass
>
> I've got to run lines through an attic which consists of ceiling
> joists, insulation, and the sheetrock ceiling of the rooms below.
> There are *no* boards to walk on. What's safest way to work in a
> situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
> thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
> plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
The plywood is probably the safest way, Russ. However, if you can get
enough light up there you should be able to simply walk from joist to joist,
holding onto a rafter occasionally to steady yourself. That's what my guys
usually do.
I may have shared this story some time back in this NG. On the day the
Challenger exploded I was installing a system in a home in Glastonbury, CT.
The homeowner was away at the time. I had asked him if the attic flooring
was safe since it looked a bit flimsy. He assured me all the boards were
nailed down and safe for walking.
As I stepped over a duct onto one of those "safe" boards, it flipped
straight up, sending my legs through the ceiling into the bathroom below.
Other than some bruises and a rather damaged ego, I was OK. It cost me a
bit to have the ceiling replaced, which we managed to do before the
gentleman returned from his trip.
One other strange thing happened that day. As I was taking some tools into
the house, a neighbor who was waiting for me to install her system stopped
and said hello. She then asked if I'd heard the news about the Challenger.
I don't listen to the radio while I work so I had heard nothing. Supposing
she meant the *Dodge* Challenger rather than the NASA Challenger, I said no
I had not heard.
The lady said, "It's gone. The whole thing was lost." Seeing her strong
concern about the discontinuation of a car model (so I thought), I was a bit
perplexed.
I said something like, "So what? I never liked it anyway. The thing ate
fuel like crazy and there are much faster, more comfortable models for the
same money." She must have thought I was hard as nails.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.BassHome.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-521-2143 fax
=====================>
Before posting to alt.security.alarms, check the FAQ
at http://asa.faq.simsware.com for more information
NYAlarmco
>situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
>thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
>plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
>
>Russ Salerno
>rsal...@li.remove.net
></PRE></HTML>
Russ
Go with the plywood but don't forget to check first for bees or other wild life
before going up.Get a good respirator or dust mask and eye protection.Wear long
sleeves.Secure some drop lights for good lighting.
Good Luck,
John,
RANGER ALARM SERVICES
Barry May
Barry May
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>>What's safest way to work in a
>>situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
>>thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
>>plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
>Go with the plywood but don't forget to check first for bees or other wild life
>before going up.Get a good respirator or dust mask and eye protection.Wear long
>sleeves.Secure some drop lights for good lighting.
>Good Luck,
>John,
>RANGER ALARM SERVICES
>
Geez, let's not make this more difficult than necessary.
You don't need plywood to work in an attic. You walk on the joists.
ONLY on the joists. Usually this isn't difficult if you can touch
something; that helps maintain your balance. If necessary, go on
your hands and knees. Avoid stepping on flexible conduit and scraps
of wood you may see lying around.
You don't need kneepads, either.
You definitely don't need eye protection to crawl an attic. Not only
is it not needed, it will fill up with sweat in no time flat.
Definitely get a dust mask, but read the fine print and be sure it's
rated for fiberglass. Cheap dust masks aren't. This is your lung...this
is your lung on fiberglass...
And drop lights only make the attic hotter.
Jim Rojas
rope around my neck so I can drop it when necessary. I bring with me a pair of cutters, a
few beanies in my pocket, and a small reach pole. The dust mask is a must. Some attics
contain poison powder that can make you real sick. If you must use knee pads, use the soft
ones. The hard ones are too uncomfortable. Try to avoid disturbing the insulation. This is
what the reach pole can do for you.
Jim Rojas
NYAlarmco
>
>You definitely don't need eye protection to crawl an attic. Not only
>is it not needed, it will fill up with sweat in no time flat.
>
>Definitely get a dust mask, but read the fine print and be sure it's
>rated for fiberglass. Cheap dust masks aren't. This is your lung...this
>is your lung on fiberglass...
>
>And drop lights only make the attic hotter.
I don't know about you but I use eye protection every chance I get. When
drilling,hammering,sawing,eating half a grapefruit with a spoon,and especially
when erecting scafolding in the attic.
John
RANGER ALARM SERVICES
Robert L Bass
>
> --- snip good stuff ---
>
> And drop lights only make the attic hotter.
Use a flourescent drop light.
Robert L Bass
Doug Winslow
>
> NYAlarmco wrote:
> >
> > ....
> > I don't know about you but I use eye protection every chance I get. When
> > drilling,hammering,sawing,eating half a grapefruit with a spoon,and especially
> > when erecting scafolding in the attic.
>
> would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
> scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
> another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
Robert, have you lost your sense of humor? If you look at his post
you'll notice a :-) at the end of that one sentence post... Is
non-destructive humor not allowed here anymore? Doug
Barry May
I was begining to think there was a lose of a sense of humor in this NG. I think you
saw I was making somewhat of a lite sarcastic comment on overdoing the attic
preparation. I've been in my share of attics and found that laying plywood can end up
causing an accident that will bring you through the ceiling very easily, especially if
you are trying to work in the direction the joists are running. You don't realize
that the end of the plywood is overhanging a joist and you shift your wieht onto it.
The only safe way is to nail down the plywood, leave it in place and use the area for
storage after the alarm installation.
I do agree with long sleeve shirts. A face mask if the attic is dusty. Goggles might
get in the way though (I never had a problem with dust in the eyes and I wear contact
lenses.) Drop lights is a lot of prep work. I always found a strong wide beam
flashlight perfect for the limited amount of work that would be done up there.
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Radio Rep.
ba...@security-zone.com
John M. Morgan
say is, " use a Grabbit ". (g)
Grabbits are lightweight telescoping fiberglass poles with a special tip
that has inward facing "knife edges" to grab and grip a wire. 12 and 18 foot
reach models are popular. Weighing just 11 ounces, the GR-12 is my favorite.
Grabbits are sold by the good folks at Labor Saving Devices, along with many
other neat tools that save time and money. (And maybe one or two that aren't
so great.)
Labor Saving Devices 1-800-648-4714.
Now, being as I don't sell 'em, and rarely post anything that's blatantly
self serving, I wonder if I might escape without being flamed or
ostracized?
--
John Morgan (Grabbit inventor with obvious slight financial interest :<)
To REPLY please remove FLY from address.
Jim Rojas wrote in message <3623E146...@tech-man.com>...
>I agree. The less you take up with you the better. and a small reach pole.
Jim Rojas
last. We make our own. We use aluminum golf ball retrievers or telescoping
painting sticks. I have 4 grabbits in my garage at home. They all splintered or
just fell apart. If our home made reach pole breaks or gets lost, no harm done.
You can't say the same thing for a grabbit.
Jim Rojas
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>
>I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
>the best thing in the world!
Are you serious, or just having a little fun with us?
The idea of wrapping one of those things around my neck never occurred to me.
Robert L Bass
>
> ....
> I don't know about you but I use eye protection every chance I get. When
> drilling,hammering,sawing,eating half a grapefruit with a spoon,and especially
> when erecting scafolding in the attic.
Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room. Why
would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
-----------------------------
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.BassHome.com
-----------------------------
Evan
I almost laughed out loud when I saw your post. No offense.
I have worked in the industry for 8 years, solely in South Florida, and I
have seen MAYBE 10
attics with a floor. Having crawled probably 1 thousand attics(or close
to it), I would say that Jim Rojas has it right on the money. I would
imagine that you could stand upright in most
places, so it should be fairly easy. Planking will only hinder you, just
be carefull and it should be
a breeze. I wish I had your problems with attics.
Good luck,
Evan
q
website, where he will happily sell you any number of pre-cut plywood planks
specially designed for the DIYer preparing to install his/her own security
system...
Hey relax its just a joke, don't take it seriously ; )
>In article <6vvr5m$9jq$1...@news01.li.net>, rsal...@li.remove.net (rsalerno)
wrote:
>I've got to run lines through an attic which consists of ceiling
>joists, insulation, and the sheetrock ceiling of the rooms below.
>There are *no* boards to walk on. What's safest way to work in a
>situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
>thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
>plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
>TIA,
>Russ Salerno
>rsal...@li.remove.net
David J. Rosso
wrote:
>Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room. Why
>would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
>scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
>another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
Oh good Lord, woooshh....
David J. Rosso - Safe Harbor Security Inc.
http://members.aol.com/fightcrime
Advertise your business @
http://members.aol.com/drosso3398
David J. Rosso
>You don't need plywood to work in an attic. You walk on the joists.
>ONLY on the joists.
Exactly, walking on plywood can be more dangerous anyway when you step
to far and tip the plywood and lose your balance. It does not take
much practice to master the art of joist walking.
>You don't need kneepads, either.
If you are going to be on your knees more than a few minutes it is
best to use knee pads, trust me, this coming from a 30yr old with
knees for shit from kneeling on a nail while doing a rough-in, now if
I kneel on a hard surface to long my knees get fluid in them, yuck!
>And drop lights only make the attic hotter.
I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
the best thing in the world!
David J. Rosso - Safe Harbor Security Inc.
R.H.Campbell
never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with a
3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up through
the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab the
loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
Question: What if the distance is too far. Answer: Find an alternate
location for the motion. Question: How do you feed down to the basement.
Answer: Go down inside a closet, down through the floor to the basement.
Question: What if there is absolutely no way down to the basement Answer:
Never say never !!
rsalerno wrote in message <6vvr5m$9jq$1...@news01.li.net>...
q
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way. I've
never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with a
>3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up
through
>the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab the
>loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
>Question: What if the distance is too far. Answer: Find an alternate
>location for the motion. Question: How do you feed down to the basement.
>Answer: Go down inside a closet, down through the floor to the basement.
>Question: What if there is absolutely no way down to the basement Answer:
>Never say never !!
You must do them wham-bam thank you mam jobs, two doors and a motion?
Charles Booth
roof rafters.
When rising from a kneeling or bent-over position, always, always,
rise slowly to protect your head from protrusions and roof nails (I
had my scalp peeled back one time when my head came in contact with
the bottom end of a 2 x 10, which was a ridge timber jutting several
feet into the main attic from a section of the house with a lower
roof).
Good wiring practice, especially if you are going to service the
system yourself for the next decade or more, is to make sure the wires
are protected from damage by future tradesmen (HVAC, electricians,
insulators, carpenters who may lay down a floor, etc). Do not simply
run the wires haphazardly across the tops of the joists. In time they
will become damaged by the aforementioned vendors.
Many times I have had to return to a job to search for and repair
damaged attic cables that should have been run beneath the joists
(yes, beneath the joists, or below the insulation, or close to the
eaves where no one walks, or fastened to the ridge, or to the roof
rafters. It's this kind of dedication to duty that pays dividends in
the long run. Yes, I know it takes longer to do, and New England
attics are hot, and I recall many a day descending from an attic,
soaking wet. As best we could we would do attic work in the morning
or on rainy/cloudy days in the summer.
Robert L Bass
>
> No, I meant reach pole. I have spent a small fortune on grabbits. They don't
> last. We make our own. We use aluminum golf ball retrievers or telescoping
> painting sticks. I have 4 grabbits in my garage at home. They all splintered or
> just fell apart. If our home made reach pole breaks or gets lost, no harm done.
> You can't say the same thing for a grabbit.
I agree about the products from Labor $aving Devices (which I prefer to
call "Money $pending Devices"). Grabbits break too easily. I sometimes
use an electrician's snake to snare cables but it's easier using a board
with a nail or screw stuck on one edge near the end.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.BassHome.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-521-2143 fax
==========================>
Robert L Bass
>
> Robert L Bass wrote:
> >
> > NYAlarmco wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't know about you but I use eye protection every chance I get. When
> > > drilling,hammering,sawing,eating half a grapefruit with a spoon,and especially
> > > when erecting scafolding in the attic.
> >
> > would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
> > scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
> > another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>
> you'll notice a :-) at the end of that one sentence post... Is
> non-destructive humor not allowed here anymore?
Hmm. I just looked at the previous post and there doesn't seem to be a
:-) in it. I kind of wondered if he was kidding or if he meant
something other than what I mean by "scaffolding." Yes, humor is
allowed. In fact, it's welcome. I guess I was too tired to see the
joke.... :)
Regards,
Robert L Bass
Robert L Bass
x-no-archive
> >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
> >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
> >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>
Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
through the ceiling? ;)
RLB
Robert L Bass
>
> I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
> the best thing in the world!
If I'm going to be up in the attic for long, I bring up a drop light.
For shorter periods, I use a device that I originally bought for
recreational use.
I like hiking on the AT, sometimes at night. I've also recently taken
up kayaking. Arriving after dusk, it's difficult to see without a
flashlight. But I need both hands free to stow my gear and secure the
kayak on top of my 4Runner. So I went down to EMS and bought a Head
Light. It's a small, very bright flashlight with a couple of straps.
You wear it like a cap. It's great for hiking and stuff.
Unfortunately, it's not convenient to fit under my David Clarks so I
can't use it for my favorite sport of all.
But the darn thing is great for working in atics and crawl spaces.
Wherever you look the light shines. The only drawback is the laughter
from the other technicians. But they need a little fun.
Robert L Bass
>
> I'm sure Robert L Bass would be more than happy to direct you to his
> website, where he will happily sell you any number of pre-cut plywood planks
> specially designed for the DIYer preparing to install his/her own security
> system...
Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
genius!
Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
$pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
Robert L Bass
>
> Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way. I've
> never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
> middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with a
> 3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up through
> the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab the
> loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
Presumably, you install more than just one motion detector before the
job is done. What if the client has French doors that need wiring
(through the attic) and they're at the opposite end of the home from the
attic hatch? How about if he needs smokes in each bedroom, the hall
outside the bedrooms, etc? How do you wire from smoke to smoke without
climbing up into the attic? Or do you just place smokes like motion
detectors below where it is easiest to install them?
> Question: What if the distance is too far.
> Answer: Find an alternate location for the motion.
What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
expense of a quality installation?
> Question: How do you feed down to the basement.
> Answer: Go down inside a closet, down through the floor to the basement.
What if the client doesn't want you drilling through the closet floor?
> Question: What if there is absolutely no way down to the basement
> Answer: Never say never !!
Agreed, but never take the easy way out if it's not the best way for the
client. Otherwise, you may as well sell those next-to-useless wireless
mini-systems some of the nationals push.
Jim Rojas
quality. I'm glad to see that I am not alone. I find that more & more of their
products are just hardware store items slapped together & sold as professional
quality tools. I prefer to make my own labor saving devices. I pass the techniques
along to my techs. It gives them a better sense of confidence & self worth. If the
LSD product breaks, what's happens now? Do you drop what you are doing & go out &
buy another? Or do you use your brain & figure out how to make a new one for out
of stuff laying around?
Jim Rojas
Robert L Bass wrote:
> q wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure Robert L Bass would be more than happy to direct you to his
> > website, where he will happily sell you any number of pre-cut plywood planks
> > specially designed for the DIYer preparing to install his/her own security
> > system...
>
> Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
> genius!
>
> Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
> $pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
> decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
> announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
> and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
> know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
>
Jim Rojas
tech. Although I think wrapping a snake light around your neck would get real
uncomfortable after a while. I like RLB's idea, the headlight. I ocassionaly use
a small automotive spotlight hooked into a 4AH battery in a hip bag when spending
alot of time in an attic. I've done many homes with add on roofs. I remember one
house that had 3 sets of roofs on top of one another. The hip bag came in real
handy then. I spent close to 4 hours trying to find snakes & routing wires out of
the way.
Jim Rojas
aa-2@_no.span.deltanet.com wrote:
> In <3623fe8b...@news.apk.net>, ro...@apk.net (David J. Rosso) writes:
> >
> >I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
> >the best thing in the world!
>
Nick
If anyone else is like me and is much more comfortable working with a decent light source
no matter if it is a basement, attic, crawl space or just a dark closet then I can suggest
a very effective work light. It may sound odd or awkward at first but after experimenting
with various light sources I now use a spelunker's headlamp made by PETZL. This device is
self-contained, light weight and only takes a short time to get use to. The benefit is
well worth it. Imagine having hands free a focus-able light source that is the equivalent
of a three C cell "MAG" flashlight wherever you are looking and working. The next best
product if this concept has any value at all for you would be a "TopSpot" made by
STREAMLIGHT. The TopSpot is about haft the price and still gives you a good quality
working headlamp arrangement that also doubles as a handheld flashlight.
Now for those of you that find this extravagant or grossly unnecessary that's fine for
you. I do much better using these lights and am offering the idea to others that have been
thinking about or looking for a better portable working light source. The fact that it is
always lighting what you are looking at and is hands free is a great plus.
Best Regards,
Nick
aa-2@_no.span.deltanet.com wrote:
> In <19981013133105...@ng111.aol.com>, nyal...@aol.com (NYAlarmco) writes:
> >>What's safest way to work in a
> >>situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
> >>thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
> >>plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
> >
> >Russ
> >Go with the plywood but don't forget to check first for bees or other wild life
> >before going up.Get a good respirator or dust mask and eye protection.Wear long
> >sleeves.Secure some drop lights for good lighting.
> >Good Luck,
> >John,
> >RANGER ALARM SERVICES
> >
>
> Geez, let's not make this more difficult than necessary.
>
> You don't need plywood to work in an attic. You walk on the joists.
> ONLY on the joists. Usually this isn't difficult if you can touch
> something; that helps maintain your balance. If necessary, go on
> your hands and knees. Avoid stepping on flexible conduit and scraps
> of wood you may see lying around.
>
> You don't need kneepads, either.
>
> You definitely don't need eye protection to crawl an attic. Not only
> is it not needed, it will fill up with sweat in no time flat.
>
> Definitely get a dust mask, but read the fine print and be sure it's
> rated for fiberglass. Cheap dust masks aren't. This is your lung...this
> is your lung on fiberglass...
>
> And drop lights only make the attic hotter.
--
The SafetyFirst Company of New Jersey, Inc. /d.b.a.
Hammonton Alarm Company SafetyFirst Security Systems
Member NBFAA & NJBFAA, Nick, alar...@erols.com
Alarmsrvcs
What if the distance is too far. Answer: Find an alternate location for the
motion.
Mike Reply
Question: (?)
Do you or did you ever work for ADT ? sounds like their $ 99.00 job. Control
in the closet, keypad on the other side of the closet wall at eye level, 2 foot
up from keypad, motion detector, 1 foot up from that the interior siren ( that
no one can hear outside, the outdoor one is $ 199.00 extra. Yep, twice the
price of the whole system. ) There you have it 8 feet of cable and everything
mounted on one wall. Oh.. I forgot to mention the 2 contacts ran along the
molding. Hey what do you expect for $ 99.00, and they even call it
professionally installed. I love them. I can rip em out in less then 5 minutes.
Mike
Alarm Services Inc.
www.AlarmServicesInc.com
Alarmsrvcs
I is called " Wireless"
Nick
Robert L Bass
>
> Hello:
> If anyone else is like me and is much more comfortable working with a decent light source
> no matter if it is a basement, attic, crawl space or just a dark closet then I can suggest
> a very effective work light. It may sound odd or awkward at first but after experimenting
> with various light sources I now use a spelunker's headlamp made by PETZL.
That's the brand I use which I described in a post to this thread
earlier this evening. The things are great!
BTW, I think the name "spelunker" really comes from the noise they make
when they fall into an uncharted, water-filled hole. ;(
R.H.Campbell
nothing" slam bam jobs generally end up being the most troublesome customers
on the longer term. The mass marketers can have them, thank you very much
!!!!!
q wrote in message ...
>In article <sZTU1.3029$vk7.12...@news21.bellglobal.com>, "R.H.Campbell"
><rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way.
I've
>never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
>middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with a
>>3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up
>through
>>the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab
the
>>loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
>>Question: What if the distance is too far. Answer: Find an alternate
>>location for the motion. Question: How do you feed down to the basement.
>>Answer: Go down inside a closet, down through the floor to the basement.
>>Question: What if there is absolutely no way down to the basement Answer:
>>Never say never !!
>
R.H.Campbell
Robert L Bass wrote in message <3623E76D...@home.com>...
>R.H.Campbell wrote:
>>
>
>Presumably, you install more than just one motion detector before the
>job is done.
Of course, no home can be adequately protected with one motion - unless
you're into selling the mini-systems which I abhor. They are litte more than
garbage. Homes in our area are built such that there is rarely a need to go
into the attic to service them properly. One can almost always find a way to
route wires in the basement without the need to go to the extreme of attic
installations.
How about if he needs smokes in each bedroom, the hall
>outside the bedrooms, etc? How do you wire from smoke to smoke without
>climbing up into the attic? Or do you just place smokes like motion
>detectors below where it is easiest to install them?
If you had read any of my other posts, I would have assumed you know I'm not
a slam bam artist. Smokes in our areas put in by the contractors are
presently interconnected already, and its a simple matter of using a special
relay to interconnect them, and from there to a conventional smoke alarm and
then to the panel.This gives thorough interconnection to all smokes in the
house. Smoke locations are dictated by code during the building of the
house.
>
>> Question: What if the distance is too far.
>> Answer: Find an alternate location for the motion.
>
>What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
>place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
>expense of a quality installation?
I wont dignify this question with an answer !!
It seems that a lot of homes in the US must not have basements; I assume
that is why so many installers feel a need to go into the attic. In all the
years in business, I've only had a need to go up there about a half a dozen
times, and then only to feed up from the basement to the attic along the
gaps around the furnace.Any locations such as the french doors you mention,
can be served by wireless (only four times in total has this been necessary)
R.H.Campbell
location is not suitable, one can normally find another location. How on
earth did you ever come to the illogical conclusions stated in your answer
to my post.
I think I can now understand how Mr. Bass has been so rudely and stupidly
treated in this NG, with logic like that !!!!!!!!
Alarmsrvcs wrote in message <19981014012607...@ng23.aol.com>...
><org>
>What if the distance is too far. Answer: Find an alternate location for the
>motion.
>
>Mike Reply
>Question: (?)
>Do you or did you ever work for ADT ? sounds like their $ 99.00 job.
Control
>in the closet, keypad on the other side of the closet wall at eye level, 2
foot
>up from keypad, motion detector, 1 foot up from that the interior siren
Brian Karas
My wife got a 'going away present' from one of her jobs a while back,
it was a mini-mag lite that runs off a single AAA battery. We both
thought 'neat' and 'useless'. Well, it turns out this thing is GREAT
for fishing in stud cavities. If I'm having problem finding a
wire/etc while fishing I can drill another 1/2" dia hole next to the
one I'm fishing in, turn the mag lite on, drop it in with a short
string, and it lights up the ENTIRE stud cavity to the point that I
can look into the hole I'm trying to fish in and usually see whats
going on.
Obviously this doesn't work for insulated cavities.
The other way I've used it is when trying to send a fish tape up/down
to an outlet box. The mag lite is short enough to fit inside an
outlet box, so I face it up or down into the knockout I'm trying to
hit with the fish tape. Again, looking into the hole I'm fishing you
can see the entire stud cavity with a very bright 'target' to direct
the fish tape towards.
Try it next time you're frustrated, and just POSITIVE that the stud
cavity you're working in is actually a black hole that swallows all
that enters it...
[] [] Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> was saying:
>Jim Rojas wrote:
>>
>> No, I meant reach pole. I have spent a small fortune on grabbits. They don't
>> last. We make our own. We use aluminum golf ball retrievers or telescoping
>> painting sticks. I have 4 grabbits in my garage at home. They all splintered or
>> just fell apart. If our home made reach pole breaks or gets lost, no harm done.
>> You can't say the same thing for a grabbit.
>
>I agree about the products from Labor $aving Devices (which I prefer to
>call "Money $pending Devices"). Grabbits break too easily. I sometimes
>use an electrician's snake to snare cables but it's easier using a board
>with a nail or screw stuck on one edge near the end.
>
>Regards,
>Robert L Bass
--
Brian@ 'at' @Karas. 'dot' .com.
Return address munged to prevent SPAM...
SOHO DataComm wiring, FAQ's, etc:
http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/3300
Brian Karas
safety glasses and had a fragment of AtticDust in your eye...
Next time, to fully protect your eyes, cover them with two pieces of
duct tape, this will work to keep all dust and debris from your eyes
_ __
/ \ \
| | \
\_/ |
|
|
_ |
/ \ |
| | /
\_/ __/
^^
GIANT SIZE(tm) Can't-Miss-It Smily, in regards to the duct tape...
[] [] Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> was saying:
>
>Hmm. I just looked at the previous post and there doesn't seem to be a
>:-) in it. I kind of wondered if he was kidding or if he meant
>something other than what I mean by "scaffolding." Yes, humor is
>allowed. In fact, it's welcome. I guess I was too tired to see the
>joke.... :)
>
Brian Karas
[] [] Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> was saying:
>David J. Rosso wrote:
>>
>> I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
>> the best thing in the world!
>
>If I'm going to be up in the attic for long, I bring up a drop light.
>For shorter periods, I use a device that I originally bought for
>recreational use.
Al DeMarzo
attic! Could ruin your day.
Al
Jim Rojas wrote:
> No, I meant reach pole. I have spent a small fortune on grabbits. They don't
> last. We make our own. We use aluminum golf ball retrievers or telescoping
> painting sticks. I have 4 grabbits in my garage at home. They all splintered or
> just fell apart. If our home made reach pole breaks or gets lost, no harm done.
> You can't say the same thing for a grabbit.
>
> Jim Rojas
>
> John M. Morgan wrote:
>
> > Please be specific when you talk about a "reach pole". I *hope* you meant to
> > say is, " use a Grabbit ". (g)
> >
> > Grabbits are lightweight telescoping fiberglass poles with a special tip
> > that has inward facing "knife edges" to grab and grip a wire. 12 and 18 foot
> > reach models are popular. Weighing just 11 ounces, the GR-12 is my favorite.
> > Grabbits are sold by the good folks at Labor Saving Devices, along with many
> > other neat tools that save time and money. (And maybe one or two that aren't
> > so great.)
> >
> > Labor Saving Devices 1-800-648-4714.
> >
> > Now, being as I don't sell 'em, and rarely post anything that's blatantly
> > self serving, I wonder if I might escape without being flamed or
> > ostracized?
> >
> > --
> >
> > John Morgan (Grabbit inventor with obvious slight financial interest :<)
> > To REPLY please remove FLY from address.
> >
> > Jim Rojas wrote in message <3623E146...@tech-man.com>...
> > >I agree. The less you take up with you the better. and a small reach pole.
> > This is
> > >what the reach pole can do for you.
> > >
> > >Jim Rojas
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Jim Rojas <jro...@tech-man.com>
> Technical Manuals Online!
>
> Jim Rojas
> Technical Manuals Online! <jro...@tech-man.com>
> 8002 Cornwall Lane Work: 813-886-7850
> Tampa Fax: 813-886-7850
> FL Netscape Conference Address
> 33615-4604 Netscape Conference DLS Server
> USA
> Additional Information:
> Last Name Rojas
> First Name Jim
> Version 2.1
MikeD
Robert L Bass wrote
>Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
>genius!
>
>Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
>$pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
>decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
>announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
>and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
>know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
Hey, what about an on-line DIYers manual on how to crawl in small attics
without breaking their necks? Do we get commission for every precut plywood
and manual you sell on line? hehehe
MikeD
Mungo Henning
[maglite story snipped]
Briefly (cause I don't claim originality here) I use a "lilliput" bulb connected
to a piece of flexible co-axial aerial cable as a lightsource for dropping into
cavities (when pulling wires). The diameter of the bulb body must be around 5 or
so millimetres, and I use twelve volt bulbs run off a lead-acid battery.
This little contraption has paid for itself many times over: indispensable for
illuminating cavities.
Mungo Henning
Ron Rempel
Up here in Canada, we the frozen chosen use snow shoes in the attic.
You otta try it some time.
> q wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure Robert L Bass would be more than happy to direct you to his
> > website, where he will happily sell you any number of pre-cut plywood planks
> > specially designed for the DIYer preparing to install his/her own security
> > system...
>
> Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
> genius!
>
> Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
> $pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
> decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
> announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
> and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
> know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
>
MikeD
3 ft)
Attics around here are hell, and basements nearly non existent except for
very large buildings. It is always hot and humid (insulation loves sweaty
skin), and all sorts of critters live up there. If you want to teach your
installers what working on an attic is really like, send them to me. If they
survive the first 30 minutes, I'll give them an award, but they'll probably
not want to work in this industry any more after that experience. :o)
Mike Demartini
PD: We even have some of those 100 year old homes made entirely of coral
rock. No attic, no basement, and no space between the drywall and the coral
rock walls. Now, those are a real challenge.
---->
R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
Robert L Bass
>
> Of course, no home can be adequately protected with one motion - unless
> you're into selling the mini-systems which I abhor. They are litte more
than
go
> into the attic to service them properly. One can almost always find a way
to
> route wires in the basement without the need to go to the extreme of attic
> installations.
We certainly agree on the necessity of a full system as opposed to those
useless mini-systems.
> If you had read any of my other posts, I would have assumed you know I'm
not
> a slam bam artist. Smokes in our areas put in by the contractors are
> presently interconnected already, and its a simple matter of using a
special
> relay to interconnect them, and from there to a conventional smoke alarm
and
> then to the panel. This gives thorough interconnection to all smokes in
the
> house. Smoke locations are dictated by code during the building of the
> house.
I have read many of your other posts and I do not assume you're a
slam-bammer (have I just coined a new word?) But please elaborate on the
special relay you use. I understand the principle quite well. But which
relay do you use with which alarm control panel? I'm not aware of any that
have been listed for the purpose. Without the listing, connecting the
device to the system is a code violation.
>>> Question: What if the distance is too far.
>>> Answer: Find an alternate location for the motion.
>>
>>What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
>>place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
>>expense of a quality installation?
>
>I wont dignify this question with an answer !!
You said you'd find an alternate location. I only want to know what you do
if the most effective point requires you to trudge up to the attic. Will
you still choose another location as you stated?
> It seems that a lot of homes in the US must not have basements; I assume
> that is why so many installers feel a need to go into the attic.
I work in New England where attics and basements are pretty standard.
Certainly there are homes without one or the other and even a few with
neither. In a lot of southern states there are almost no basements. In
most of Florida a basement would simply become an indoor pool.
> In all the
> years in business, I've only had a need to go up there about a half a
dozen
> times, and then only to feed up from the basement to the attic along the
> gaps around the furnace. Any locations such as the french doors you
mention,
> can be served by wireless (only four times in total has this been
necessary)
Wireless? What's that? Only kidding. Give me a decent drill and wire over
wireless almost every time. Your statement that you've only used it four
times proves you're also concerned about quality. However, French doors are
fairly common features. And so are add-on rooms over a slab foundation.
We've wired doors, window screens and glass breaks in porches where there
was no attic, basement or crawl space. On a number of very old homes around
here the walls are wood panel. My guys disassemble the woodwork, route a
path and lay in the cables. Then the trim is reinstalled and nail holes
filled with matching wood filler. When we're done you can't tell we've been
there.
This kind of workmanship takes time. Sometimes it requires climbing or
crawling into inconvenient or unpleasant places. But the finished result is
well worth the effort.
FTR, I've read your posts here for some time and have never had the
impression that you do less than quality work. But I'm somewhat troubled by
a couple of your comments in the present thread. Strict adherence to code
guidelines in fire alarms is (IMO) essential. If you're using any
non-listed components to jerry-rig a fire alarm I'll be rather disappointed.
As far as the business of attic-avoidance, I just want to make sure we both
agree that the most important issue (perhaps the only issue) is the
effective completion of a proper system of protection. IOW, if doing it
right means going into the attic then so be it. If a proper job means
crawling around in a crawl space (after all, that's why they call them
that), then that is what must be done.
I take no issue with you personally. But I do take issue with any
suggestion that one opt for a possibly less effective system design simply
to avoid going through an attic. You and I both know that ease of
completion should never outweigh correct placement.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.BassHome.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-521-2143 fax
=====================>
Before posting to alt.security.alarms, check the FAQ
at http://asa.faq.simsware.com for more information
R.H.Campbell
comments about 4 inch long roaches, bats and other assorted creepy crawlees
living in those attics, I cant resist asking (tongue in cheek) if you equip
your installers with handguns in their toolbelts !!!!!...........
MikeD wrote in message <702kmh$js2$1...@news.gate.net>...
>Try to find a basement in South Florida. (You can find water if you dig
down
>3 ft)
>Attics around here are hell, and basements nearly non existent except for
>very large buildings. It is always hot and humid (insulation loves sweaty
>skin), and all sorts of critters live up there. If you want to teach your
>installers what working on an attic is really like, send them to me. If
they
>survive the first 30 minutes, I'll give them an award, but they'll probably
>not want to work in this industry any more after that experience. :o)
>
>Mike Demartini
>
>PD: We even have some of those 100 year old homes made entirely of coral
>rock. No attic, no basement, and no space between the drywall and the coral
>rock walls. Now, those are a real challenge.
>---->
>R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
>>It seems that a lot of homes in the US must not have basements; I assume
>>that is why so many installers feel a need to go into the attic. In all
the
>>years in business, I've only had a need to go up there about a half a
dozen
>>times, and then only to feed up from the basement to the attic along the
>>gaps around the furnace.Any locations such as the french doors you
Robert L Bass
x-no-archive
>Robert L Bass wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
>> genius!
>>
>> Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
>> $pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
>> decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
>> announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
>> and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
>> know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
>
> without breaking their necks? Do we get commission for every precut
plywood
> and manual you sell on line? hehehe
I'll give you 5% on the manuals and 15% on the plywood.
Robert
R.H.Campbell
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
But please elaborate on the
>special relay you use. I understand the principle quite well. But which
>relay do you use with which alarm control panel? I'm not aware of any that
>have been listed for the purpose. Without the listing, connecting the
>device to the system is a code violation.
The relay we use is sold for the purposes up here for about $30 Cdn (I'll
find out the model and let you know). I have been told that it meets code
but quite honestly I have never actually checked it out.(something I will
do). I don't install individual fire alarms - that is strictly controlled
here - and if you install it, you cant approve it etc. However, we do
install smoke detectors as part of the alarm system and interconnect them to
the regular series wired house smokes (I get the impression that the code
requirements in the US are somewhat more restrictive than we have here in
Ontario. As you probably know, there are absolutely no training, licensing
or other requirement before opening a security business or operating as a
locksmith (the govt would rather piss away millions registering all long
gunes ...oops sorry off topic !!!)
>
>>>What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
>>>place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
>>>expense of a quality installation?
>>
>Nope ! Never ! But I can tell you I'll struggle like hell before I venture
into an attic. It definately is the last straw in doing a proper
installation.
>
>You said you'd find an alternate location. I only want to know what you do
>if the most effective point requires you to trudge up to the attic. Will
>you still choose another location as you stated?
See above answer
>FTR, I've read your posts here for some time and have never had the
>impression that you do less than quality work.
No offence taken
But I'm somewhat troubled by
>a couple of your comments in the present thread. Strict adherence to code
>guidelines in fire alarms is (IMO) essential. If you're using any
>non-listed components to jerry-rig a fire alarm I'll be rather
disappointed.
Nothing is ever jury rigged !! I'll leave that to others.
As far as the business of attic-avoidance, I just want to make sure we both
>agree that the most important issue (perhaps the only issue) is the
>effective completion of a proper system of protection. IOW, if doing it
>right means going into the attic then so be it. If a proper job means
>crawling around in a crawl space (after all, that's why they call them
>that), then that is what must be done.
Absolutely !! However, if i worked in Florida, I might reconsider my line of
employment !!!!
>
>I take no issue with you personally. But I do take issue with any
>suggestion that one opt for a possibly less effective system design simply
>to avoid going through an attic. You and I both know that ease of
>completion should never outweigh correct placement.
Again, we agree totally, however, I will struggle like hell to find an
alternate route before going into an attic. But if thats what it takes, then
I'll do it, but so far I've been very lucky, since I generally work on new
homes, and haven'thad the bad luck to get some of the horrors you guys
describe in other posts.
>
Barry May
Halloween. Some installers do carry a .22 as required tools others take an
attack dog. I wanted something that would fit in a tool box and didn't want a
gun so I took a Ferret. He worked pretty good until one day one of those
unidentified sounds turned out to be a female Ferret. Haven't seen mine since.
:-)
I think this tread is getting a little long. Seriously, I never ran across
anything worse than a large nest. Before we would work in the attic, we had the
owner contract a service that takes care of things like that. (I think
exterminators either do that or are associated with services that take care of
it.) I think the biggest danger is working in short attics, raising your head
and getting whacked with one of those roof nail points that are exposed. I've
hit them many times. Maybe that's why I'm this way :-) Where a hard hat d:-)
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Radio Rep
ba...@security-zone.com
MikeD
>comments about 4 inch long roaches, bats and other assorted creepy crawlees
>living in those attics, I cant resist asking (tongue in cheek) if you equip
>your installers with handguns in their toolbelts !!!!!...........
>
Well... I wouldn't recommend handguns... imagine if they miss the roach
and the bullet tears their recently run 16 conductor and they have to spend
another two hours in the 125 degree temperature attic re-running the damaged
wires?
When we hire installers, during the interview we toss a large roach at them
and watch their reaction. If they jump, they don't get the job, if they
throw it to the floor and step on it, they get the job, if they grab it, eat
it, and then spit out the legs and wings... they get the job plus an
instant bonus. ;o)
Mike Demartini
Malcolm Walls
Robert L Bass wrote:
> David J. Rosso wrote:
> x-no-archive
> > Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room. Why
> > >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
> > >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
> > >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
> >
> > Oh good Lord, woooshh....
>
> Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
> through the ceiling? ;)
>
> RLB
Robert
I'm pretty sure it was the sound of a pretty lame joke flying past the head of
one Robert L Bass.
Malcolm Walls
M&M Security Inc.
Burglar Alarms
We Sell Peace of Mind!
R.H.Campbell
across the attic. Hook 4 quads to his collar, send him off to your assistant
waiting on the other side and there you go !! Of course, you're in trouble
if he gets the wander urge greater than 1000 feet !!
Barry May wrote in message <3624F1FF...@security-zone.com>...
>> Wow, you don't make the job sound terribly inviting !! Combined with the
>> comments about 4 inch long roaches, bats and other assorted creepy
crawlees
>> living in those attics, I cant resist asking (tongue in cheek) if you
equip
>> your installers with handguns in their toolbelts !!!!!...........
>>
>> MikeD wrote in message <702kmh$js2$1...@news.gate.net>...
>> >Try to find a basement in South Florida. (You can find water if you dig
>> down
>> >3 ft)
>> >Attics around here are hell, and basements nearly non existent except
for
>> >very large buildings. It is always hot and humid (insulation loves
sweaty
>> >skin), and all sorts of critters live up there. If you want to teach
your
>> >installers what working on an attic is really like, send them to me. If
>> they
>> >survive the first 30 minutes, I'll give them an award, but they'll
probably
>> >not want to work in this industry any more after that experience. :o)
>> >
>> >Mike Demartini
>> >
>> >PD: We even have some of those 100 year old homes made entirely of coral
>> >rock. No attic, no basement, and no space between the drywall and the
coral
>> >rock walls. Now, those are a real challenge.
>> >---->
>> >R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
R.H.Campbell
MikeD wrote in message <702tk0$1jce$1...@news.gate.net>...
>R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
>>Wow, you don't make the job sound terribly inviting !! Combined with the
>>comments about 4 inch long roaches, bats and other assorted creepy
crawlees
>>living in those attics, I cant resist asking (tongue in cheek) if you
equip
>>your installers with handguns in their toolbelts !!!!!...........
>>
>
>
Robert L Bass
>
>
>Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>> David J. Rosso wrote:
>> x-no-archive
>> > Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room.
Why
>> > >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
>> > >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
>> > >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>> >
>> > Oh good Lord, woooshh....
>>
>> Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
>> through the ceiling? ;)
>>
>> RLB
>
>Robert
>
>I'm pretty sure it was the sound of a pretty lame joke flying past the head
of
>one Robert L Bass.
I knew I recognized that sound <gg>
> Malcolm Walls
> M&M Security Inc.
M&M? Are you related to the the guys using the same name in CT, USA?
Robert L Bass
dealer but the wording of your prior post to this thread left me wondering
about a few things. Thanks for clarifying. Now if only we could get the
rest to take that kind of attitude, perhaps one day the alarm industry might
actually enjoy a decent reputation. Sigh.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.BassHome.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-521-2143 fax
=====================>
Before posting to alt.security.alarms, check the FAQ
at http://asa.faq.simsware.com for more information
R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
>
>Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
> But please elaborate on the
>>special relay you use. I understand the principle quite well. But which
>>relay do you use with which alarm control panel? I'm not aware of any
that
>>have been listed for the purpose. Without the listing, connecting the
>>device to the system is a code violation.
>
>The relay we use is sold for the purposes up here for about $30 Cdn (I'll
>find out the model and let you know). I have been told that it meets code
>but quite honestly I have never actually checked it out.(something I will
>do). I don't install individual fire alarms - that is strictly controlled
>here - and if you install it, you cant approve it etc. However, we do
>install smoke detectors as part of the alarm system and interconnect them
to
>the regular series wired house smokes (I get the impression that the code
>requirements in the US are somewhat more restrictive than we have here in
>Ontario. As you probably know, there are absolutely no training, licensing
>or other requirement before opening a security business or operating as a
>locksmith (the govt would rather piss away millions registering all long
>gunes ...oops sorry off topic !!!)
>>
>>>>What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
>>>>place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
>>>>expense of a quality installation?
>>>
>>Nope ! Never ! But I can tell you I'll struggle like hell before I venture
>into an attic. It definately is the last straw in doing a proper
>installation.
>>
>>You said you'd find an alternate location. I only want to know what you
do
>>if the most effective point requires you to trudge up to the attic. Will
>>you still choose another location as you stated?
>
>See above answer
>
>>FTR, I've read your posts here for some time and have never had the
>>impression that you do less than quality work.
>
>No offence taken
>
> But I'm somewhat troubled by
>>a couple of your comments in the present thread. Strict adherence to code
>>guidelines in fire alarms is (IMO) essential. If you're using any
>>non-listed components to jerry-rig a fire alarm I'll be rather
>disappointed.
>
>
>Nothing is ever jury rigged !! I'll leave that to others.
>
>As far as the business of attic-avoidance, I just want to make sure we both
>>agree that the most important issue (perhaps the only issue) is the
>>effective completion of a proper system of protection. IOW, if doing it
>>right means going into the attic then so be it. If a proper job means
>>crawling around in a crawl space (after all, that's why they call them
>>that), then that is what must be done.
>
>Absolutely !! However, if i worked in Florida, I might reconsider my line
of
>employment !!!!
>>
>>I take no issue with you personally. But I do take issue with any
>>suggestion that one opt for a possibly less effective system design simply
>>to avoid going through an attic. You and I both know that ease of
>>completion should never outweigh correct placement.
>
Robert L Bass
benefits on the W-21 form. Better check with your tax accountant.
R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
>Ha,Ha,Ha ............... Jees, you must be a terror to work for !!!!!!
>
>
>MikeD wrote in message <702tk0$1jce$1...@news.gate.net>...
>>R.H.Campbell wrote in message ...
q
Bass" <alar...@Home.com> wrote:
<I have read many of your other posts and I do not assume you're a
slam-bammer (have I just coined a new word?)>
If you hurry you can patent it, then sell its usage out at your online store
: )
David J. Rosso
wrote:
>David J. Rosso wrote:
>x-no-archive
>> Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room. Why
>> >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
>> >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
>> >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>>
>> Oh good Lord, woooshh....
>
>Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
>through the ceiling? ;)
No, it was the sound the message made as it woosshed right over your
head. Guess you lost your sense of humor since you didn't seem to
realize the poster was joking about scafolding in an attic.
David J. Rosso - Safe Harbor Security Inc.
http://members.aol.com/fightcrime
Advertise your business @
http://members.aol.com/drosso3398
David J. Rosso
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way. I've
>never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
>middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with a
>3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up through
>the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab the
>loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
You have got to be kidding right? You obviously do sloppy work it you
drag everything through the attic like that, I can't imagine the
spider web of wire you would make doing it like that. What would your
customer do if later they wanted to floor off the attic but your wires
were strung all over the place like that. I hope you're kidding, I
find it hard to believe a professional would do work in that manner.
David J. Rosso
>>In article <sZTU1.3029$vk7.12...@news21.bellglobal.com>, "R.H.Campbell"
>><rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way. I've
>>never had to do it.
>You must do them wham-bam thank you mam jobs, two doors and a motion?
Sounds like it huh, I'd hate to walk in an attic after him, you'd
probably trip on all his wires!
David J. Rosso
>In <3623fe8b...@news.apk.net>, ro...@apk.net (David J. Rosso) writes:
>>
>>I found that my trusty Dewalt snake light wrapped around my neck is
>>the best thing in the world!
>
>Are you serious, or just having a little fun with us?
>
>The idea of wrapping one of those things around my neck never occurred to me.
Yes I was serious, it does not actually wrap "around" my neck, the
snake part is not that long, I simply bend it in a "U" shape, throw
it around my neck then angle the light up in the direction I am
working. It works great, plus it hangs nicely from rafters when you
need to take it off your neck.
The dewalt light I am refering to uses my rechargeable 14.4v batteries
that my dewalt drill uses, its great because since I bought the light
I have never had to buy batteries for a flashlight again!
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>Wow, you don't make the job sound terribly inviting !! Combined with the
>comments about 4 inch long roaches, bats and other assorted creepy crawlees
>living in those attics, I cant resist asking (tongue in cheek) if you equip
>your installers with handguns in their toolbelts !!!!!...........
No, shooting them only makes them mad.
David J. Rosso
wrote:
>That's what we are here for. To give each other ideas on how to life easier as a
>tech. Although I think wrapping a snake light around your neck would get real
>uncomfortable after a while.
I just replyed to the other message, it does not actually wrap all the
way around, it more or less just hangs on my neck in a U shape, it is
not uncomfortable at all, it provides plenty of light while keeping my
hands free.
>I like RLB's idea, the headlight
Radio Shack sells such headlights but they are pretty cheap and they
are not real bright, I can spot planes with my 14.4v Dewalt snake
light!
David J. Rosso
wrote:
>
>
>Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>> David J. Rosso wrote:
>> x-no-archive
>> > Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room. Why
>> > >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
>> > >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
>> > >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>> >
>> > Oh good Lord, woooshh....
>>
>> Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
>> through the ceiling? ;)
>>
>> RLB
>
>Robert
>
>I'm pretty sure it was the sound of a pretty lame joke flying past the head of
>one Robert L Bass.
BINGO :)
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>Hey, woundn't it be great if you could train that ferret to drag your wires
>across the attic. Hook 4 quads to his collar, send him off to your assistant
>waiting on the other side and there you go !! Of course, you're in trouble
>if he gets the wander urge greater than 1000 feet !!
Someone actually did this with a rat. They used it in California to wire
up some schools for Internet access.
Barry May
Barry May
Doug Winslow
>
> Doug Winslow wrote:
> >
> > Robert L Bass wrote:
> Hmm. I just looked at the previous post and there doesn't seem to be a
> :-) in it. I kind of wondered if he was kidding or if he meant
> something other than what I mean by "scaffolding." Yes, humor is
> allowed. In fact, it's welcome. I guess I was too tired to see the
> joke.... :)
Understood, hmmm...I'll let you live *this* time... :-) Doug
Robert L Bass
mail. On page 214 they list several Petzl head lamps. Prices vary from $24
to $66. I've bought wet suits and other equipment from this company. They
have been good to deal with so far. Here's their phone web address:
<http://www.campmor.com>.
Hope this helps.
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
>David J. Rosso wrote:
>>
>> Jim Rojas wrote:
>>>
>
>>> I like RLB's idea, the headlight
>>
>> Radio Shack sells such headlights but they are pretty cheap and they
>> are not real bright....
>
>No, RadShak sells a cheap, dim imitation. EMS sells Petzl, a very bright,
>krypton lamp that is used by cavers and professional alarm installers.
>
>Regards,
>Robert
>
>=====================>
>Robert L Bass
>Bass Home Electronics
Robert L Bass
DepthExplr
In article <xg7V1.3099$vk7.13...@news21.bellglobal.com>, "R.H.Campbell"
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>Hey, woundn't it be great if you could train that ferret to drag your wires
>across the attic. Hook 4 quads to his collar, send him off to your assistant
>waiting on the other side and there you go !! Of course, you're in trouble
>if he gets the wander urge greater than 1000 feet !!
>
>
hmmm... another marketing idea for Robert's on line shop... trained wiring
ferrets. Rent them for a day, save a buck, rent them for a week save a bunch...
hehehe... just kidding Robert ;o)
now, this is no joke, I know an electrician who has one of those little black
trained monkeys, and he takes it to his job sites (he does mostly prewires on
homes under construction) and the monkey handles him the tools. The monkey has
been doing it so long that he knows what tool to hand to his master. His
friends make all sorts of jokes about him like "when the monkey gets the wrong
tool... does he spank the monkey at the job site?" ;o)
MT
Robert L Bass
R.H.Campbell
or someone somewhere gets the wrong impression. People in this group just
seem to love taking shots ...........(I'm beginning to know how RLB feels)
Obviously you don't leave everything laying all over. I would have assumed
you would have assumed that !! Wires have to be stapled for the reason you
say. The wires referred to are up in the cross members stapled properly.
However, I do wonder how many homeowners would actually ever "floor off the
attic". Most of our attics you can't even stand up in !! The odd attic that
I've had to go up into (when there was no other option available) was always
filled with about 2 ot 3 feet of blown in insulation (its VERY cold here in
Canada) and you could never find any joists to walk on even if you wanted
to. And with virtually all the newer homes coming with unfinished basements,
its very rare when you find yourself in a situation where you ever have to
go up there (thank goodness). As I said in a couple of other posts, I'll
look for any other professional way to wire rather than go up in the attic
(as do all the professional company installers that I know in this area)
And we don't have maneating cockroaches up here either !!!!...............
David J. Rosso wrote in message <362527fb...@news.apk.net>...
>On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 02:26:32 GMT, "R.H.Campbell"
><rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Walk in someones attic? Forget it - theres usually always a better way.
I've
>>never had to do it. The homes in this area have their entrance usually
>>middle of the home. Find a ceiling location for the motion, punch up with
a
>>3 foot fibreglass rod with a round steel wire hook on the end, go up
through
>>the attic entrance with my 20 foot telescopic rod , reach over and grab
the
>>loop on the end of the 3 foot rod, and pull everything to me. Job done.
>
>You have got to be kidding right? You obviously do sloppy work it you
>drag everything through the attic like that, I can't imagine the
>spider web of wire you would make doing it like that. What would your
>customer do if later they wanted to floor off the attic but your wires
>were strung all over the place like that. I hope you're kidding, I
>find it hard to believe a professional would do work in that manner.
>
>
>
Robert L Bass
>
> ... I guess you just have to spell everything out in detail in these posts
> or someone somewhere gets the wrong impression. People in this group just
> seem to love taking shots ...........(I'm beginning to know how RLB feels)
I don't think anyone got the wrong impression. If there's room for doubt I
just ask. From prior experience I figured you'd explain things and your
answer was fine with me. However, there are indeed some who deliberately
misconstrue anything said in the worst light. I suspect we'd need extensive
training in behavioral sciences to understand why.
On second thought, maybe it can be easily explained. Some people are just
plain mean.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
David J. Rosso
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Jeez, I guess you just have to spell everything out in detail in these posts
>or someone somewhere gets the wrong impression. People in this group just
>seem to love taking shots ...........(I'm beginning to know how RLB feels)
>
> Obviously you don't leave everything laying all over. I would have assumed
>you would have assumed that !! Wires have to be stapled for the reason you
>say. The wires referred to are up in the cross members stapled properly.
I'm interested to know how exactly you could staple your wires if you
don't go up in the attic, please explain. From what I can imagine you
can only reach about five feet around your access hatch so I guess
your wires are not stapled beyond five feet away, hence the spider web
mess of wires I mentioned.
Reb
David J. Rosso wrote in message <3625da5...@news.apk.net>...
Jim Rojas
do it in the old days. I use 5/8 or larger. If I'm out of drive rings, I use
electricians cable staples, or ferring strips. You can find enough pieces laying
around & inside the dumpster. A few spaced apart at the peak of the roof.
Jim Rojas
R.H.Campbell
do.
First off, the only attics that I've been unfortunate enough to have to work
in have been low slope ones where the head room is about 3 feet. Within that
three foot area are all sorts of cross beams. Coupled with a 2 foot sea of
loose blown insulation, the only way to traverse the area is with a
surfboard ! When I push up the rod through the ceiling with the loop on the
end, it rises above the crossbeams. When I bring the wire across, of course
it sits loose in the rafters, but is stapled up where it can be reached. Now
if you consider that unprofessional installation because its not stapled at
every cross beam or whatever, so be it. However, it is up out of danger
where no one will ever go (at least in these attics). Should it ever get
damaged (I dont know how by human means), it will be me repairing it. And I
suggest to you that it is almost physically impossible to do otherwise.
Which is exactly why I don't get involved with this foolishness unless it is
ABSOLUTELY necessary. You set your standards according to the construction
methods you come across in the homes you work in, as do we. And since its
rare that this even has to be done, there are never "spider webs" of wire
simply because there are usually only one or maximum two wires up there.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
David J. Rosso wrote in message <3625da5...@news.apk.net>...
R.H.Campbell
dissertation on all the TRULY unprofessional things I've come across in this
business in our unregulated area of the country. When I do, I suspect no one
will ever believe me !!!
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
>R.H.Campbell wrote:
>>
>> ... I guess you just have to spell everything out in detail in these
posts
>> or someone somewhere gets the wrong impression. People in this group just
>> seem to love taking shots ...........(I'm beginning to know how RLB
feels)
>
MikeD
>Ha,Ha,Ha ............... Jees, you must be a terror to work for !!!!!!
Yes, that is what they all say... except... they are not laughing like you
when they say that ;o)
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
>I think he may have to include those free lunches as part of the employee
>benefits on the W-21 form. Better check with your tax accountant.
>
hmmm... I didn't think of that.... I'm calling the accountant right now
;o)
Mike Demartini
David J. Rosso
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Ok, I'll go over this again, since it seems it won't be left alone until I
>do.
>
>First off, the only attics that I've been unfortunate enough to have to work
>in have been low slope ones where the head room is about 3 feet. Within that
>three foot area are all sorts of cross beams. Coupled with a 2 foot sea of
>loose blown insulation, the only way to traverse the area is with a
>surfboard ! When I push up the rod through the ceiling with the loop on the
>end, it rises above the crossbeams.
I don't recall that part from your original message, I pictured your
wires being pulled along the attic floor, I will be able to rest
alittle easier tonight.
>When I bring the wire across, of course
>it sits loose in the rafters, but is stapled up where it can be reached. Now
>if you consider that unprofessional installation because its not stapled at
>every cross beam or whatever, so be it.
Well, to be honest with you, in my book I would, but thats me and the
company I work for, perhaps others would not.
Allan Waghalter
satisfied customer. They make something that looks like a surf board with
wheels on the bottom that you can lay down and scoot all over the attic.
It is best for those areas where you cannot stand or easily crawl. Don't
use it often, but
rsalerno <rsal...@li.remove.net> wrote in article
<6vvr5m$9jq$1...@news01.li.net>...
> I've got to run lines through an attic which consists of ceiling
> joists, insulation, and the sheetrock ceiling of the rooms below.
> There are *no* boards to walk on. What's safest way to work in a
> situation like that without falling through the ceiling? I was
> thinking along the lines of leapfrogging two 3' X 5'5" pieces of 3/4"
> plywood as I move around. Any other tips would be appreciated.
>
> TIA,
>
> Russ Salerno
> rsal...@li.remove.net
>
R.H.Campbell
unprofessional, and I think most caring companies would agree with you.
However, like most things, when you must do the virtually impossible to
achieve a tiny bit extra (which in the overall job amounts to absolutely
nothing of real importance), you ask yourself is it REALLY worth it ? I'm
not kidding you about the attics in some of these houses - they are
impossible to traverse due to the low headroom, HEAVY insulation, gauntlet
of sharp roofing and joist nails, and an almost total inability to find the
joists. That's why I spent almost $100 for one of those telescopic rods. I
thought I would use it for attic work, but I do so little of that, that I've
used it more for, and find it great for fishing inside drywall covered
basement ceilings to retrieve door wiring, where the joists run the right
way. What started out looking like a waste of money since I wasn't using it
much has since proved its worth in saved costs where I didn't have to use
wireless components to serve certain points (I'm not a great fan of wireless
and try to avoid it wherever possible)
Well, to be honest with you, in my book I would, but that's me and the
David J. Rosso
<rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Well, to be completely honest with you, I agree with you - it is a tad
>unprofessional, and I think most caring companies would agree with you.
>However, like most things, when you must do the virtually impossible to
>achieve a tiny bit extra (which in the overall job amounts to absolutely
>nothing of real importance), you ask yourself is it REALLY worth it ? I'm
>not kidding you about the attics in some of these houses - they are
>impossible to traverse due to the low headroom, HEAVY insulation, gauntlet
>of sharp roofing and joist nails, and an almost total inability to find the
>joists.
I understand where you're coming from, you just have to realize how
your original message came across to the dozens of others here that
almost daily traverse across attics here in the states.
Horace Schmidlap
no wonder more people lurk.
isn't this the guy that got screwed with the pet detectors ?!
he pays their fine forcrisake
R.H.Campbell <rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote in article
<pQmV1.3145$vk7.13...@news21.bellglobal.com>...
Horace Schmidlap
attics
are good for is a place to toss the Christmas tree ornaments. You've got
the wires
up and visible to the homeowner when he opens the hatch.
The man thinks you're laying wires across a floor.
>...I pictured your wires being pulled along the attic floor...
R.H.Campbell <rh.ca...@sympatico.ca> wrote in article
<KtzV1.3219$vk7.14...@news21.bellglobal.com>
> it is a tad unprofessional, and I think most caring companies would agree
with you.
I don't and I care bigtime.
>
> Well, to be honest with you, in my book I would, but that's me and the
> >company I work for, perhaps others would not.
> >
oh brother, to steal a line from an old VH tune, gimme a break, Dave.
Ron Spalding
use radio detection and make sure it has the range.
Malcolm Walls wrote in message <3624FEFC...@nbnet.nb.ca>...
>
>
>Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>> David J. Rosso wrote:
>> x-no-archive
>> > Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Hmm. I use scaffolding to reach the ceiling in a large, open room.
Why
>> > >would you use it in an attic? For that matter, how do you get
>> > >scaffolding up the attic hatch? Maybe the word "scaffolding" has
>> > >another meaning where you are than what I'm used to.
>> >
>> > Oh good Lord, woooshh....
>>
>> Was that woooshh the sound of someone we all know and love falling
>> through the ceiling? ;)
>>
>> RLB
>
>Robert
>
>I'm pretty sure it was the sound of a pretty lame joke flying past the head
of
>one Robert L Bass.
>
>Malcolm Walls
>M&M Security Inc.
>Burglar Alarms
>We Sell Peace of Mind!
>
Bill Miller
that I have wired up.
Bill Miller
Ron Rempel wrote:
>
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>
> Up here in Canada, we the frozen chosen use snow shoes in the attic.
> You otta try it some time.
>
>
> > q wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure Robert L Bass would be more than happy to direct you to his
> > > website, where he will happily sell you any number of pre-cut plywood planks
> > > specially designed for the DIYer preparing to install his/her own security
> > > system...
> >
> > Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. Talk about marketing. The man's a
> > genius!
> >
> > Actually, I could probably make a bundle selling Labor $aving (Money
> > $pending) Devices' line of quick-breaking tools, too. Instead, I've
> > decided to add a few dozen tools to my online store. I'll shortly
> > announce the roll-out of another 20+/- HTML pages covering installation
> > and trouble shooting tools, meters, butt sets, snakes, etc. I don't
> > know if I'll bother with the precut plywood, though. :-)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Robert L Bass
> >
> > ==========================>
> > Bass Home Electronics
> > The Online DIY Alarm Store
> > http://www.BassHome.com
> > 80 Bentwood Road
> > West Hartford, CT 06107
> > 860-561-9542 voice
> > 860-521-2143 fax
> > =========================
Bill Miller
when used with the Firex 0406C, 0418C, or 0420C. These are numbers from
old literature and there are new numbers for the POC detectors. They
had designed it to turn on exhaust fans or exit lights if the smoke
alarm went off and while it can be adapted easily to monitor the
interconnected smoke detectors they (because of liability) do not
recommend it. They do not want it hooked up to other manufacturers
smokes; and so far we have not tried it. It is made to work with their
systems. (Anyone else know of another manufacturer who makes a similar
unit?) We can usually get new house builders to use the Maple Chase and
then use the end of line relay to monitor the whole system.
Bill Miller
Belgard Alarms Ltd.
R.H.Campbell wrote:
>
> Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
> But please elaborate on the
> >special relay you use. I understand the principle quite well. But which
> >relay do you use with which alarm control panel? I'm not aware of any that
> >have been listed for the purpose. Without the listing, connecting the
> >device to the system is a code violation.
>
> The relay we use is sold for the purposes up here for about $30 Cdn (I'll
> find out the model and let you know). I have been told that it meets code
> but quite honestly I have never actually checked it out.(something I will
> do). I don't install individual fire alarms - that is strictly controlled
> here - and if you install it, you cant approve it etc. However, we do
> install smoke detectors as part of the alarm system and interconnect them to
> the regular series wired house smokes (I get the impression that the code
> requirements in the US are somewhat more restrictive than we have here in
> Ontario. As you probably know, there are absolutely no training, licensing
> or other requirement before opening a security business or operating as a
> locksmith (the govt would rather piss away millions registering all long
> gunes ...oops sorry off topic !!!)
> >
> >>>What if the best location for the motion detector isn't the easiest
> >>>place to pull a wire? Do you still opt for the quick way out -- at the
> >>>expense of a quality installation?
> >>
> >Nope ! Never ! But I can tell you I'll struggle like hell before I venture
> into an attic. It definately is the last straw in doing a proper
> installation.
> >
> >You said you'd find an alternate location. I only want to know what you do
> >if the most effective point requires you to trudge up to the attic. Will
> >you still choose another location as you stated?
>
> See above answer
>
> >FTR, I've read your posts here for some time and have never had the
> >impression that you do less than quality work.
>
> No offence taken
>
> But I'm somewhat troubled by
> >a couple of your comments in the present thread. Strict adherence to code
> >guidelines in fire alarms is (IMO) essential. If you're using any
> >non-listed components to jerry-rig a fire alarm I'll be rather
> disappointed.
>
> Nothing is ever jury rigged !! I'll leave that to others.
>
> As far as the business of attic-avoidance, I just want to make sure we both
> >agree that the most important issue (perhaps the only issue) is the
> >effective completion of a proper system of protection. IOW, if doing it
> >right means going into the attic then so be it. If a proper job means
> >crawling around in a crawl space (after all, that's why they call them
> >that), then that is what must be done.
>
> Absolutely !! However, if i worked in Florida, I might reconsider my line of
> employment !!!!
> >
> >I take no issue with you personally. But I do take issue with any
> >suggestion that one opt for a possibly less effective system design simply
> >to avoid going through an attic. You and I both know that ease of
> >completion should never outweigh correct placement.
>
> Again, we agree totally, however, I will struggle like hell to find an
> alternate route before going into an attic. But if thats what it takes, then
> I'll do it, but so far I've been very lucky, since I generally work on new
> homes, and haven'thad the bad luck to get some of the horrors you guys
> describe in other posts.
> >
Barry May
Barry May
Security Consultant
AES IntelliNet Radio Rep.
ba...@security-zone.com