using CAT5 for smoke detectors
Christopher Glaeser
detectors in states like California? Are there legal rammifications for
licensed installers?
Best,
Christopher
Jim Rojas
Can't do it. NFPA72 says 18 gauge fire rated wire. I use 18/4 just in
case we need to use 4 wire smokes in the future. I also use 18/4 for the
transformer, and sirens. It keeps from stocking too many different wires
on the truck. Please also note that if you use the fire keys on the
keypad, that is considered a pull station. 18/4 for that as well. It
sucks, but that's life.
Jim Rojas
Effenpig1
I'm glad someone agrees with me on this subject. I always use fire
wire for power, siren keypads and fire devices even if the system
doesn't initially have any fire devices. I always did it in case I was
asked to add fire protection to a system later, but if the fire panic
button constitutes a pull station then I guess on the systems I never
added fire protection to, the fire wire wasn't a waste after all.
Christopher Glaeser
An installer on another forum says he uses CAT5 for smoke detectors. To
avoid nicks in the 24AWG and potential breakage, he strips the wire with his
fingernails. Says he's been doing it for years. I had assumed CAT5 was not
to code, hence my question.
Best,
Christopher
Effenpig1
IMHO, It seems there are more installers who do things the wrong way
than the right way. Most of them can't be convinced of the error of
their ways because, as you mentioned, They've been doing it for years.
All it takes is one substantial loss with an investigation and it's
all over.
Most proper uses of cat5 require the use of some kind of crimp on
connector, which is kind of telling in itself. The conductors are too
fragile too be stripped and put under terminals.
Christopher Glaeser
> connector, which is kind of telling in itself. The conductors are too
> fragile too be stripped and put under terminals.
Agreed. Even if the stripping is nick-free, the force of the terminals can
crush CAT5. Of course, Murphy will ensure that total failure does not occur
until an actual fire.
Best,
Christopher
Jim Rojas
Alot has to do with costs. I can't tell you how many newer ADT, Brinks,
P-1 installs out there using standard 4 conductor for everything. Sure
it's wrong, but there are no wire police (inspectors) that actually
care, or just turn a blind eye. Many still use 24 gauge zip wire on new
construction, and even intercom wire to keypads. If every job was
required to be properly inspected prior to getting monitored, I doubt it
that anything would change.
Just think about the cable companies. According to NFPA72, the installer
is required to be a journeyman electrican to climb the same pole that
the home's electric power is on, to make the final connections...but
that always gets overlooked. I see these same bozos break out an all
alumium ladder and lean it on the power poles. These guys break more
OSHA safety rules than any industry I have ever seen, but life goes on.
If there is a buck to be made, you can rest assured someone will look
the other way, while the envelope slides across the table.
Jim Rojas
Kid
"Jim Rojas" <jro...@tech-man.com> wrote in message
news:WUu2n.8359$V_3...@newsfe09.iad...
ok Frank. where is your post about how that is not a pull station? or
won't you pull that on Rojas?
Matt Ion
> What are the building codes regarding the use of CAT5 to wire smoke
> detectors in states like California? Are there legal rammifications for
> licensed installers?
You just had to do it, didn't you?
I don't see anything about stripping the wires with your fingernails,
tho... ;)
jewellfish
Actually, NFPA 72 (2002-4.4.4.4) does not directly address wire size
but redirects to NEC (NFPA 70).
Assuming we are talking power-limited circuits, NEC places the 18
gauge limit on single conductors. If you are running THHN or
equivalent in raceway then the wire must be at least 18. However, in
a multi-conductor cable, the minimum gauge is 26 gauge which would
mean that CAT 5 would be ok, in that regard.
Additionally, NEC (article 765) does certainly permit the substitution
of general purpose cable for fire rated cable, so that, unless local
amendments prevent it, regular CAT 5 could be used.
Not saying its a good idea, but it is allowed.
Jim Rojas
The only thing I use Cat5 for in a burg install is for the telco line.
Jim Rojas
jewellfish
You are a wise man.
Jewellfish
Christopher Glaeser
A king must know these things. :)
> I don't see anything about stripping the wires with your fingernails,
> tho... ;)
It's there, second post. FWIW, using fingernails to strip wire for the
purpose of avoiding nicks and breakage is really just an acknoledgement that
24AWG is not really suitable for a critical applications. Of course,
opinions vary on the importance of fire safety and building codes and
practices.
Years ago there was a store Tri-City Sporting Goods in Fremont, CA that
covered several acres (now gone and replaced with housing). They had large
steel gates at each of the major exits. Shoplifting was a problem, so they
began padlocking some of the exit gates during business hours. Each exit
had a large lighted EXIT sign over the locked gates. When I saw this, I
mentioned it to one of the sales staff, assuming he would say, oops, we
forgot to unlock those this morning. He said, and I'm not making this up,
quote, "If there is a fire, I'm sure the manager will come and unlock the
gate."
Well, I figured he was clueless, so I asked to speak to the manager. Would
you believe I went all the way up the management chain, and no one would
agree that it was a really bad idea to lock exit doors during business
hours. I had to call the Fremont Fire Department to get them to change the
policy.
Best,
Christopher
Robert L Bass
>
> I had to call the Fremont Fire Department to get them to change the policy.
I was in a waiting room while my mother underwent surgery at Sarasota Memorial
Hospital a few years ago. The fire alarm system went off, releasing the
magnetic door holders and closing the door to the room. A magnetic lock secured
the door. I got up to look out in the hall and discovered we were locked in.
There was no REX motion sensor and no Push to Release button anywhere near the
door. Someone had installed a release button (non-UL, of course) at the
volunteer's desk about 10-15 feet from the door. I asked the volunteer and of
course she opened the door.
I notified hospital security (it's been a long time; I forget who I actually
spoke to) about the code violation and the danger of locking people into an
interior room during an actual fire. They did nothing. A call to the fire
marshal got it remedied. I assume the same thing was done in other locations
around the hospital. Hope they fixed them.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>
Christopher Glaeser
The first time I reported a lockeded exit door, I was shocked at the
response. When you tell someone something so obvious, like, um, you forgot
to put on your pants this morning before coming to work, you expect them to
say, oh my gosh, I simply forgot, let me rush home and put on a pair. But
no, they just stand there and declare that they are indeed wearing pants.
I'm no longer surprised. I notice a locked exit door every couple of years
in this or that establishment. I no longer waste my time with management.
I call the fire department and let them deal with it. They can get their
attention, otherwise known as a citation. It's so unfortunate when we hear
about fire tragedies that could have been easily avoided.
Best,
Christopher
Frank Olson
Hey... For Jim to say that, it must be (in Fohida at least). :-)
Matt Ion
Have none of these people ever seen "Lean On Me"?
motley me
@newsfe13.iad:
> The only thing I use Cat5 for in a burg install is for the telco line.
>
> Jim Rojas
>
Amen brother!
Robert L Bass
>
>> The only thing I use Cat5 for in a burg install is for the telco line.
>>
>> Jim Rojas
>>
>
> Amen brother!
We did a lot of Napco systems over the years. Many of them were take-overs.
Their RP1-CAe2 keypad has a built-in 4 zone expander. We would run CAT5 to
those keypads because it was easy to run the zones back to the panel. If it was
one of ours, we ran 22/4 from the panel and wired nearby sensors directly to the
pad.
Windsor, CT, had a Fire Marshal who insisted that keypad and siren wiring be
fire cable if the system included smokes. After the first run-in with him, we
started using fire wire for keypads in Windsor. Everywhere else we ran standard
22/4.
Oh, one exception. I did a freebie for a church-affiliated drug rehab place in
Rhode Island. We had to use 16-gauge for keypads, sirens, smokes and heats. A
local electrician pulled the permits and "supervised" the job. Fortunately, he
warned us in advance about the cable. I would have run 18/4 fire stuff
otherwise. The inspector was *not* flexible. :^)
Effenpig1
I lost count of how many 100 and 200 amp service entrance cables I
replaced because the cable guys just decide to drill their hole next
to it without checking inside first. I guess they can't fathom the
idea that you can run entrance cable in directions other than straight
ahead. If by some chance they missed the main they were still fond of
drilling through various other wires. Of course they always do this at
3PM on a Friday.
jewellfish
>
> - Show quoted text -
We make them work harder at that kinda thing around here. Service
drops, from the weatherhead to the meterbase and then to the breaker
panel must be in rigid metal raceway. Doesn't make it idiot proof, but
it, at least, makes it tougher for them to do and since the pipe is
grounded they know just when penetrate to conduit and hit the wire :-)
jewellfish
Jim
I'm sure that all the metal raceway does, is make them press harder on
the drill.
Robert L Bass
>
> I'm sure that all the metal raceway does, is make them
> press harder on the drill.
Remember the guy who posted a few years ago about the alarm company drilling
through a DWV stack in his house. There was sewage leaking into the wall. I
wonder what ever became of that.
G. Morgan
<nor...@bogusemail.com> wrote:
>Remember the guy who posted a few years ago about the alarm company drilling
>through a DWV stack in his house. There was sewage leaking into the wall. I
>wonder what ever became of that.
I thought that was a cable TV guy, if we are thinking of the same
thing. There was a pic. of the coax running right through it.
Robert L Bass
>
> I thought that was a cable TV guy, if we are thinking
> of the same thing. There was a pic. of the coax running
> right through it.
That's the guy. You're probably right. Memory doesn't serve so well after all
the chemo. Not only that but you'd have a laugh if you knew what else they give
me. Suffice it to say, they gave me a prescription for some good, old fashioned
"karma" :^)
Give me a call some time if you like, G.
--
Regards,
Robert
G. Morgan
<nor...@bogusemail.com> wrote:
>That's the guy. You're probably right. Memory doesn't serve so well after all
>the chemo. Not only that but you'd have a laugh if you knew what else they give
>me. Suffice it to say, they gave me a prescription for some good, old fashioned
>"karma" :^)
I remember you mentioned that in an email. Funny thing, "karma". :)
>Give me a call some time if you like, G.
I've been meaning to. I tried when you were absent (from ASA) for a
while and your voicemail was full. I'll try back soon. Hang in
there. Finally, your stubbornness is paying off!
Jim
> "Jim" wrote:
>
> > I'm sure that all the metal raceway does, is make them
> > press harder on the drill.
>
> Remember the guy who posted a few years ago about the alarm company drilling
> through a DWV stack in his house. �There was sewage leaking into the wall. �I
> wonder what ever became of that.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
But I do remember thinking that something smelled funny about the
story.
Which remindes me of a story I heard recently ( maybe it was here?)
About the two cannibals who were eating a clown.
One says to the other, Does this taste funny to you?
Robert L Bass
>
> Which remindes me of a story I heard recently ( maybe it was here?)
> About the two cannibals who were eating a clown.
> One says to the other, Does this taste funny to you?
Heh, heh, heh...
Thanks. I needed a good laugh just then. :^)
--
Regards,
Robert
Robert L Bass
>
> ... Finally, your stubbornness is paying off!
I knew it had to be good for something. :^)
--
Regards,
Robert