Which panel?
Knucklehead
displayed at the keypad for each zone.
You can change the text on the FBII panel/keyboards, but the multiplex is
messy and costly.
The Cadxx panels have a better mpx setup, but you can't label the zones.
The user has to know them by number.
Any ideas?
Robert L Bass
(Napco calls them "areas"), 96 user codes, etc. You can name the zones as
you please.
Napco also uses an open matrix to assign features to zones, making the panel
extremely configurable. This method is utilized throughout the Napco setup
program (called PCD-3000 software) making the programming fairly intuitive
though time consuming. There are over 30 screens of programming.
I have full specs on the Gemini series panels at
http://www.bass-home.com/productdetail.cfm?&ProdID=36842 in case anyone is
interested.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
"Knucklehead" <knuck...@cordgrass.com> wrote in message
news:jQ_w6.14915$Wz.59...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Jacob Ashbury
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:F50x6.272957$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Bass, do you have any monitoring customers in Texas, Alabama or Florida?
Jake-
Group Moderator
I have full specs on the Gemini series panels at
Mike Said :
Before buying a thing from this guy. Read about him on his website HERE
http://www.alarmservicesinc.com/GOOFY/Goofy's%20Place.htm
Group Moderator
Can you answer the four questions below?
Knucklehead
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:F50x6.272957$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Robert Skinner
keypads and has programmable labels.
"Knucklehead" <knuck...@cordgrass.com> wrote in message
news:2Jkx6.16800$Wz.65...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Robert L Bass
on it in my web site at the following URL.
http://www.bass-home.com/completesystempages.cfm?&theSystem=26
However, I'm unsure that the Maxsys can perform one of the gentleman's
requirements. In order to use exterior sensors to cause interior sensors to
behave differently as described in the original post, he'll need the ability
to assign programmable relays to follow status of a separate partition which
includes the exterior devices. This relay in turn trips an internal zone
which is programmed to the main partition. That zone must be part of a
logical AND with the inside zones.
Sorry if this is a bit lengthy. I like the Maxsys, too, but IMNVO the Napco
system is more suited to this specific app.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
Jacob Ashbury
out illegal software, etc.
Full disclosure Bass.
Jake-
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:DEvx6.275592$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
jim
Robert Bass likes any new comers to this group to think that he is an
authority on everything. His reputation here is less then desirable. I would
suggest that you avoid his
seemingly helpful guise. His sole purpose here is to sell you equipment. If
you take the time to peruse the postings in this group, you will see that he
has caused turmoil and disruption in this group and has done so for years.
I would suggest that if his animosity runs rampant in this group with little
provocation, it is likely that any customer stands the chance of receiving
the same treatment. Also,
it is reported that he is a felon and is operating an on line business
illegally.
Knucklehead wrote in message
<2Jkx6.16800$Wz.65...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...
John
I get the impression that Napco doesn't care if end users / DIYs (me) have
their software as long as I never all them complaining that my panel doesn't
work or I need help with their software. Jacob, do you agree with this?
Does DSC not feel the same way? Are they making it impossible for end users
/ DIYs to get their software?
Thanks,
John
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a64id$mt9$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
RobertCampbell
are not set up to respond directly to end users, since the vast majority of
their clients are the alarm installing companies themselves. As such, their
software is geared towards the dealer and his requirements. Many companies
in fact, state categorically that their software is not to be given to end
users. Others either don't seem to care, or implicitly give the go ahead by
purposely designing their software so it can be manipulated by the dealer to
be given to end users in a modified and "safe" fashion.
The DIY market is quite unique, and relative to the whole size of the
security market, very small. As such, there is no financial or other
incentive other than to leave the situation exactly as it is currently. So
it falls on those who market specifically to DIY'ers to make a judgment call
as to how they are going to deal with this issue....
Manufacturers generally take the "safe" road and state that its for dealers
only. However, they clearly know that is is being made available to some in
the general market. However, if they continue to maintain a "hands off"
approach, this shields them from liability to some degree. Nor does it make
sense to involve themselves in an "issue" they largely have little control
over, nor really care about, since their client base are the alarm companies
who in most cases don't cater to the DIY'er....
So.... for "dealers only" becomes the catchword....
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
John <johnf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LRHx6.10090$iU.22...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
John
I agree that's great when the manufacturers say that the software is only
"intended" for dealers. But from statements others (Jacob) have made in this
newsgroup, it makes me think that some companies (DSC) are going a step
further and saying it is illegal for DIY'ers to have their software. Is this
true?
I know that when I do-it-myself I take on the full risk of any problems I
encounter.
Thanks,
John
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:F4Ix6.180321$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
RobertCampbell
asked a rep from DSC recently what their formal position was on end user
having their software... and I quote " upload/download software is designed
for the dealer and is not made available to end users"....
Is giving it to end users "illegal" ? Perhaps, in the strict sense of the
word, the same way copying copyrighted software for personal use is illegal,
but we all know how common this is........
As a knowledgeable DIY'er, you are going to assume all the risks concerning
your alarm system, which is quite different than the situation where I as a
dealer, install and maintain your system on an ongoing basis. However, if
you have your system monitored by someone, then the issue becomes clouded if
in fact you have a break and enter, and the failure of your alarm system
contributed to the losses. It's all very well for you to say that you assume
the liability, but situations and perceptions can change drastically when
the issue of failure of the alarm actually arises !! I can only state that I
personally would not provide the full, end to end service that I normally
do - sale and installation, service and warranty - to a client that had
control over the panel through software access. It just would not be
prudent - especially if I lived in the "sue crazy" environment of the US.
However, having said all that, if you as a DIY'er buy a panel, it comes with
all the programming information you need to mess things up if you are so
inclined. Having the software simply makes it more "automated"........
I suspect a bigger problem for the DIY'er is getting hold of appropriate
modems to interface with your panel.........
RHC
John <johnf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DfIx6.10326$iU.22...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
VSS DOUG
>it makes me think that some companies (DSC) are going a step
>further and saying it is illegal for DIY'ers to have their software. Is this
>true?
DSC's EULA doesn't address that issue, it states that the software may not be
placed on a server for downloading, its pretty ambiguous about everything else.
Doug L
Dan Wright
the heart of the matter here. There are actually some interesting legal
items here. The root of it is if the originator can control the item after
they have sold it. In the US, generally the answer is no. By way of
example, look at the video rental business. Originally, the studios tried
to bar the use of their product for rental purposes. It failed in the
courts. However S/W is licensed, not bought outright. Still if I have a
legitimate copy of the XYZ software, have not opened it (as in accepted the
old shrinkware style license), I am able to pass/give it to another. The
"owner" lost much of their say on who is using it when they placed it in the
distribution channels. Unless I have a contractual relationship with the
producer which bars such transactions, they really have little to stand on.
If DSC packages and sells their S/W, their legal basis for restricting who
may posses it may be limited.
--
Dan Wright
Starwolf Systems
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:hwIx6.180347$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
Robert L Bass
reality is that the only people complaining are a few "install only" dealers
with an ax to grind. Napco and DSC don't really care what I do as long as I
take care of my own clients' tech support.
If a client needs software for a given panel, there are completely lawful
ways for me to provide it and there's nothing a few news group yahoos can do
about it.
RobertCampbell
question, does it make any difference if DSC "gives out" the software
freely, since they in fact don't actually "sell" it?
I suspect having been giving it away, would severely weaken their position
if they decided at some point to make a legal issue of it.....
RHC
Dan Wright <star...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9a7m3t$oll$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Robert L Bass
As to DSC software, I can make available to you a fully licensed issue of
the software. There is no law against you owning or using it, nor would DSC
even consider hassling you over it. They are in business to manufacture and
sell alarm systems. I buy more of their systems than most of the
participants in this news group, especially the ones who've been complaining
about it for years. DSC knows exactly where their bread is buttered.
One guy sent so many e-mail complaints to one of my manufacturers that the
tech support department has him filtered. I guess they take the same
approach as some of us in this group do. :)
Robert L Bass
via direct connection to the serial port. On Napco Gemini systems this is
accomplished using the PCI-MINI and on DSC you need a PC-LINK9 connector. No
modem is needed to connect locally.
BTW, I have information on several systems which can be connected to the PC
at the following pages:
- Napco Gemini
http://www.bass-home.com/completesystempages.cfm?&theSystem=1
- DSC Power832
http://www.bass-home.com/completesystempages.cfm?&theSystem=3
- Caddx NX-8e
http://www.bass-home.com/completesystempages.cfm?&theSystem=227
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
RobertCampbell wrote:
>
> --- snip a bunch of good stuff ---
Knucklehead
grind. I'll take Bass at face value until he gives me reason to do
otherwise.
"jim" <ala...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jTwx6.84908$K54.10...@news02.optonline.net...
RobertCampbell
As far as DSC goes (and other makes as well), the end user still needs the
software on his computer in order to interface with his panel, whether he
chooses the direct connect option (if available on his make of panel) or
dials in via modem.....
Not having to use a modem is a real plus to those of us who routinely
program on site with a laptop. I only wish it was more widely available.....
RHC
Robert L Bass <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:wnJx6.276168$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Robert L Bass
manufacturer supplied CD-ROM.
Robert L Bass
distributor) I am under no obligation to DSC to withhold that unopened copy
from my clients. The notice on the shrink wrap of most software states that
by opening it you are agreeing to its terms. I don't open it and am under no
obligation to adhere to it. I can glue it to the wall as a decoration if I
like. Side note: some dealers have reportedly affixed Apex software to
targets at the shooting range. :^)
My client obtains the software from me quite legally. When he opens it, he
is then bound not to copy and further distribute it. But it's now his
license to use. The manufacturer can't force him to throw it out just
because he's not a member of ASA or something.
The copyright law is designed to protect software developers' business
interests; not to protect alarm installers from competition.
--
Robert L Bass
I have to admit that *one* of the other gentleman's barbs is *almost*
correct. One of my purposes in being here is to sell equipment. IMO that's
not such a bad thing. :)
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
Robert L Bass
>
> As far as DSC goes (and other makes as well),
> the end user still needs the software on his
> computer in order to interface with his panel,
> whether he chooses the direct connect option
> (if available on his make of panel) or dials
> in via modem.....
Yes, that is correct. I hope my post didn't cause confusion.
> Not having to use a modem is a real plus to
> those of us who routinely program on site with
> a laptop. I only wish it was more widely available.....
Almost all of my DIY clients connect locally, too. It kind of debunks the
argument which some have tried to make that my clients would be out ravaging
other folks' alarm systems once they got the dreaded software. :)
John
> Is giving it to end users "illegal" ? Perhaps, in the strict sense of the
> word, the same way copying copyrighted software for personal use is
illegal,
> but we all know how common this is........
I know it's common, but I also know that *if* I did that I would be breaking
the law. I'm speaking purely hypothetically when I ask these questions. I
want to know *if* I use a certain companies software, *am* I breaking the
law because I'm a DIY'er.
That's what I was getting at. I think others have addressed this issue. I'm
glad that I've purchased a Napco system because they seem really cool about
this sort of thing.
John
Jacob Ashbury
> When I obtain a legitimate copy through DSC authorized channels (i.e., my
> distributor) I am under no obligation to DSC to withhold that unopened
copy
> from my clients.
permissably use the software. Permission being DSCs.
>The notice on the shrink wrap of most software states that
> by opening it you are agreeing to its terms. I don't open it and am under
no
> obligation to adhere to it. I can glue it to the wall as a decoration if I
> like.
This does nothing for the question at hand- we aren't refering to 'most
software.'
> My client obtains the software from me quite legally.
Can't. This is an impossibility.
>When he opens it, he
> is then bound not to copy and further distribute it. But it's now his
> license to use. The manufacturer can't force him to throw it out just
> because he's not a member of ASA or something.
Con-man argument. The "client" has an illegal copy of the software to begin
with.
> The copyright law is designed to protect software developers' business
> interests; not to protect alarm installers from competition.
So?
Competition is part of the answer. DSC has every right to expect their
software to be used as YOU argreed to use it. If you got it illegally then
the person you got it from has the obligation as well.
This can be twisted all around the proverbial tree. A DIY'r WANTS the
software and won't buy without it or at the least won't be happy without it.
The unscrupulous dealer not only provides the software he then leads the
DIY'r to believe it is legal and acceptable.
In DSC software's case- "authorizied security professionals" only can have a
legal copy of their software.
All other arguments are simply justification for using illegal software. No
different from having a pirated copy of someone else's software- theft is
theft.
Jake-
Jacob Ashbury
"!!! Please note that you must have a DSC MD-12 v1.1x or higher modem to use
our DLS software.
If you do not, please do NOT download the software.
MD-12 v1.1x or higher modems are available through all authorized DSC
Distributors."
This is a direct quote from the dealer page. There is nothing that
remotely refers to the general public or end-users having approved access to
the software.
"VSS DOUG" <vss...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010401123801...@ng-cv1.aol.com...
It doesn't take a genius to wonder why DSC doesn't want their software on a
server. Bass, unitl recetly made DSCs software available to anyone
accessing his server.
Jake-
Jacob Ashbury
> I know it's common, but I also know that *if* I did that I would be
breaking
> the law. I'm speaking purely hypothetically when I ask these questions. I
> want to know *if* I use a certain companies software, *am* I breaking the
> law because I'm a DIY'er.
> That's what I was getting at. I think others have addressed this issue.
I'm
> glad that I've purchased a Napco system because they seem really cool
about
> this sort of thing.
Good- then it was a point in your consideration of purchase.
Good luck.
Jake-
Jacob Ashbury
Until recently you had anyone that wanted to download the software (non
Napco).
Now you're pretending you 'always' ship a CD.
If its DSC or Ademco software it is still illegal!
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:KUJx6.276175$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> I prefer to send my DIY clients a fully licensed copy of the software on a
> manufacturer supplied CD-ROM.
You're scamming your clients and having them help you in legal deception.
Jake-
Jacob Ashbury
JtSfR
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:vfJx6.276159$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Jacob Ashbury
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:m6Jx6.276138$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> The *official* Napco position is that the software is for installers.
Sure different from what you have been spouting for years.
Does *official* mean something like intended?
Jake-
Jacob Ashbury
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:L6Kx6.276177$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Dan Wright
pivotal issue. What they are giving out is licensed copies of the S/W. As
I understand it, it is not illegal to pass those on. Assuming that the
intermediary has no contractual restriction with the originator, there
really is no recourse against the 3rd parties. Some software licenses
contain boilerplate about revocability, but I am yet to see such a clause
enforced in 30 years in the software industry. The state laws about "privy
to alarm technology" are for all intents and purposed unenforceable in this
area.
A parallel example. I write some software that I only want to be used by
people with at least a master's degree in computer science. I sign
agreements with colleges with CS masters programs and give them distribution
media to be handed to the graduates. If a graduate gives it to his younger
brother who is still in high school, nothing illegal has occurred, my intent
not withstanding. If I find out about it I could revoke the agreement with
the college and possible get the S/W back from the high school kid, assuming
I knew who had it. I have no recourse against the graduate or the user.
Also, look at the business model. The manufacturers are trying to sell
systems. D/L software is an overhead expense to them. The overall poor
quality reflects that. If the manufacturers were intent on blocking access
to non-tradesmen, it would be very easy to do, but they choose not to do
that. They have a very weak case at best IMO and I do not believe that
passing along the packages intended for distribution is in any way illegal.
All things considered, the current system works fairly well. Anyone remotely
connected to the trade can get copies of everything, and anyone who
maintains their equipment privately can find a way to get the tools they
need. Its not widely available, and I am still waiting for a bonafide case
of some one cracking an alarm system with vendor software.
This thread is rapidly headed down the DIY having S/W road that this NG has
trod many times.
<humorous implied threat>
I would be glad to pull my old posts and get on my soapbox if some here want
to go through that again.
</humorous implied thereat>
--
Dan Wright
Starwolf Systems
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:YdJx6.180551$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
Jack Stevens
--
Jack Stevens
You never fail until you stop trying!
Visit our web site at http://www.alarm-company.com
"Knucklehead" <knuck...@cordgrass.com> wrote in message
news:UvJx6.19570$Wz.74...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
RobertCampbell
makes sense to me.
> This thread is rapidly headed down the DIY having S/W road that this NG
has
> trod many times.
> <humorous implied threat>
> I would be glad to pull my old posts and get on my soapbox if some here
want
> to go through that again.
> </humorous implied thereat>
No ! No ! Please, spare us opening up THAT thread again.....hehehe......
RHC
RobertCampbell
Forgive me for not answering your question more directly. We regulars all
seem to love to get "down and dirty" in all the nitty gritty of issues here
on the NG....one thing always leads to another far beyond the original
question......
Sometimes I just miss the forest for all the trees obstructing the view
......
RHC
John <johnf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t9Lx6.10757$iU.23...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> "RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
> news:hwIx6.180347$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> That's what I was getting at. I think others have addressed this issue.
Mark Leuck
>
> Almost all of my DIY clients connect locally, too. It kind of debunks the
> argument which some have tried to make that my clients would be out
ravaging
> other folks' alarm systems once they got the dreaded software. :)
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
I would imagine they are almost forced to connect locally since the
alternative is to hunt down an ancient modem or use <shudder> DSC's MD-12 :)
Mark Leuck
>
> "!!! Please note that you must have a DSC MD-12 v1.1x or higher modem to
use
> our DLS software.
> If you do not, please do NOT download the software.
> MD-12 v1.1x or higher modems are available through all authorized DSC
> Distributors."
I don't have an MD-12 (anymore) and I downloaded it, am I doing something
illegal here Jake? :)
(That also disqualifies people with PC-Links I guess)
> This is a direct quote from the dealer page. There is nothing that
> remotely refers to the general public or end-users having approved access
to
> the software.
Doesn't say they don't either
John
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:06C436E4D192434D.4CBB382E...@lp.airnews.net...
> I would imagine they are almost forced to connect locally since the
> alternative is to hunt down an ancient modem or use <shudder> DSC's MD-12
:)
What kind of modem do you need? I have a 2400 baud modem in a box someplace.
Is that it?
John
Mark Leuck
Doubt it unless that modem is a Supra 2400 or Cardinal MB2400, DSC requires
very specific modems although I've never taken the time to play with the
init strings to see what it wants
jim
installers only and shall not be distributed.
John wrote in message ...
>Just out of curiosity:
>
>I get the impression that Napco doesn't care if end users / DIYs (me) have
>their software as long as I never all them complaining that my panel
doesn't
>work or I need help with their software. Jacob, do you agree with this?
>
>Does DSC not feel the same way? Are they making it impossible for end users
>/ DIYs to get their software?
>
>Thanks,
>John
>
>"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:9a64id$mt9$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
>> And you get a better mark-up from Napco and DSC just cut you off from
>giving
>> out illegal software, etc.
>>
>> Full disclosure Bass.
>>
>> Jake-
>> "Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
Dan Wright
indeed the actual language...
1) It has to be distributable, otherwise how would you or I have it? What
that means is non-original copies of their media or installers...as in
bootleg copies.
2) Since anyone who installs a system is an alarm installer, under the
words you have provided any DIY would qualify.
3) For the license agreement to cover a person they must first have
concurred to the agreement for that copy. For example, if Napco supplies it
to Mike who without installing it then gives it to his neighbor no license
has been violated. Intent perhaps, but no contract.
I won't repeat what I said in a prior post I made earlier this evening, but
I think this thread is a red herring for other issues in ASA. The
manufacturers know what is going on and are choosing not to prevent it.
They won't support the non-tradesman, and that is their choice. Any DIY can
get what they need, and are being supported by those who sold them their
systems, as it should be.
Overall, it works for me.
--
Dan Wright
Starwolf Systems
Again, IANAL, but there are a number of governing precedents that make much
of this thread
"jim" <ala...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:RvSx6.93444$K54.12...@news02.optonline.net...
Jacob Ashbury
Sure we are- we are in the security business. Enforceability shouldn't even
enter into the equation.
Like using 24 gauge wire instead of 20 or 22 depending on the manufacturer.
Just because someone does it doesn't make it right.
Not being a Napco guy I don't read their licenses- Bass knew he was
violating Napco's EULA! Kind of like speeding in a school zone when you're
late. Don't get caught or run over a kid and you're O.K., right?
JtSfR
"Dan Wright" <star...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9a8ucj$7mr$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Dan Wright
an unopened copy of distribution media on to another, since by definition
the EULA is not relevant until the package is opened/installed.
--
Dan Wright
Starwolf Systems
.
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a8uqe$6t2$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Jacob Ashbury
I believe it depends on what rationale the software was received in the
first place, EULA or not.
If the software is 'supposed' to be issued to installer/dealers only then
anyone not 'authorized' to have the software no matter what means they
obtained it under is in violation of probably the copyright or some type of
use law.
You are probably right- at least technically and that's what we're talking
about.
I don't split the hair that way- it's installer/dealer software or it would
be on the public part of their respective web-sites. Period.
I don't give it out- I've lost a few sales because of that. everyone draws
lines somewhere, mine is comfortable for me.
JtSfR
"Dan Wright" <star...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9a92je$t2s$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Mark Leuck
> Maybe-
> I believe it depends on what rationale the software was received in the
> first place, EULA or not.
> If the software is 'supposed' to be issued to installer/dealers only then
> anyone not 'authorized' to have the software no matter what means they
> obtained it under is in violation of probably the copyright or some type
of
> use law.
>
> You are probably right- at least technically and that's what we're talking
> about.
>
> I don't split the hair that way- it's installer/dealer software or it
would
> be on the public part of their respective web-sites. Period.
>
> I don't give it out- I've lost a few sales because of that. everyone
draws
> lines somewhere, mine is comfortable for me.
>
You should have given it to them and watch them try finding a modem that
works with it, remember Jake its one thing to have the software and quite
another to actually use it
:)
Graeme mcKenzie
user use of their upload download software. It makes sense to me, and is
how i would apply use of other manufacturers software if needed:
"Installers are advised that WDirect and PC Direct are not designed to be
end user or front end packages and as such may not provide a level of
security sufficient to prevent users from accessing or modifying installer
programming. Care should be taken when recommending these programs for that
purpose as no end user support of these products is offered by Inner Range."
Graeme McKenzie
RobertCampbell wrote in message ...
>John, I don't know that I have heard the word "illegal" used. I
specifically
>asked a rep from DSC recently what their formal position was on end user
>having their software... and I quote " upload/download software is designed
>for the dealer and is not made available to end users"....
>
>Is giving it to end users "illegal" ? Perhaps, in the strict sense of the
>word, the same way copying copyrighted software for personal use is
illegal,
>but we all know how common this is........
>
>As a knowledgeable DIY'er, you are going to assume all the risks concerning
>your alarm system, which is quite different than the situation where I as a
>dealer, install and maintain your system on an ongoing basis. However, if
>you have your system monitored by someone, then the issue becomes clouded
if
>in fact you have a break and enter, and the failure of your alarm system
>contributed to the losses. It's all very well for you to say that you
assume
>the liability, but situations and perceptions can change drastically when
>the issue of failure of the alarm actually arises !! I can only state that
I
>personally would not provide the full, end to end service that I normally
>do - sale and installation, service and warranty - to a client that had
>control over the panel through software access. It just would not be
>prudent - especially if I lived in the "sue crazy" environment of the US.
>
>However, having said all that, if you as a DIY'er buy a panel, it comes
with
>all the programming information you need to mess things up if you are so
>inclined. Having the software simply makes it more "automated"........
>
>I suspect a bigger problem for the DIY'er is getting hold of appropriate
>modems to interface with your panel.........
>
>RHC
>
>John <johnf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:DfIx6.10326$iU.22...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
>> Robert,
>>
>> I agree that's great when the manufacturers say that the software is only
>> "intended" for dealers. But from statements others (Jacob) have made in
>this
>> newsgroup, it makes me think that some companies (DSC) are going a step
>> further and saying it is illegal for DIY'ers to have their software. Is
>this
>> true?
>>
>> I know that when I do-it-myself I take on the full risk of any problems I
>> encounter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>>
>> "RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
>> news:F4Ix6.180321$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
>> > This seems to be somewhat of a grey area in this market. Most
>> manufacturers
>> > are not set up to respond directly to end users, since the vast
majority
>> of
>> > their clients are the alarm installing companies themselves. As such,
>> their
>> > software is geared towards the dealer and his requirements. Many
>companies
>> > in fact, state categorically that their software is not to be given to
>end
>> > users. Others either don't seem to care, or implicitly give the go
ahead
>> by
>> > purposely designing their software so it can be manipulated by the
>dealer
>> to
>> > be given to end users in a modified and "safe" fashion.
>> >
>> > The DIY market is quite unique, and relative to the whole size of the
>> > security market, very small. As such, there is no financial or other
>> > incentive other than to leave the situation exactly as it is currently.
>So
>> > it falls on those who market specifically to DIY'ers to make a judgment
>> call
>> > as to how they are going to deal with this issue....
>> >
>> > Manufacturers generally take the "safe" road and state that its for
>> dealers
>> > only. However, they clearly know that is is being made available to
some
>> in
>> > the general market. However, if they continue to maintain a "hands off"
>> > approach, this shields them from liability to some degree. Nor does it
>> make
>> > sense to involve themselves in an "issue" they largely have little
>control
>> > over, nor really care about, since their client base are the alarm
>> companies
>> > who in most cases don't cater to the DIY'er....
>> >
>> > So.... for "dealers only" becomes the catchword....
>> >
>> > R.H.Campbell
>> > Home Security Metal Products
>> > Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>> > www.homemetal.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > John <johnf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:LRHx6.10090$iU.22...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
>> > > Just out of curiosity:
>> > >
>> > > I get the impression that Napco doesn't care if end users / DIYs
(me)
>> > have
>> > > their software as long as I never all them complaining that my panel
>> > doesn't
>> > > work or I need help with their software. Jacob, do you agree with
>this?
>> > >
>> > > Does DSC not feel the same way? Are they making it impossible for end
>> > users
>> > > / DIYs to get their software?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > > "Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
RobertCampbell
However, when all is said and done, this pretty much reflects the reality of
the situation.
Frankly, very few end users (other than DIY'ers) would ever want to dig into
their systems to this degree (that's why we are their dealers). Those that
do realistically speaking CAN get the software if they need it, and apply it
at their own risk.
RHC
Graeme mcKenzie <mckenz...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3ac8...@clear.net.nz...
jim
same as you. This is part of the intricate web Bass has woven here, in order
to promote his business at the expense of all other participant. The rest of
the people who choose to regularly reside here, have seen the sickness and
complete disregard of all, with which Bass pursues his mission. You will
likely benefit because you will come and go. All I can suggest is that you
make sure you do not leave open any possibility that would put you at the
mercy of his obsessive craving to be right or to have the last word,
regardless of any reason you may have. Make sure you have everything in
writing and don't leave anything to trust or his word. You have no history
here but I can only warn you to not cross him in any fashion what so ever or
you will see the venom.
Knucklehead wrote in message ...
>I have read the posts here. It's pretty obvious who has the axe(s) to
>grind. I'll take Bass at face value until he gives me reason to do
>otherwise.
>
>
>"jim" <ala...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:jTwx6.84908$K54.10...@news02.optonline.net...
>> I would like to give you a warning.
>>
>> Robert Bass likes any new comers to this group to think that he is an
>> authority on everything. His reputation here is less then desirable. I
>would
>> suggest that you avoid his
>> seemingly helpful guise. His sole purpose here is to sell you equipment.
>If
>> you take the time to peruse the postings in this group, you will see that
>he
>> has caused turmoil and disruption in this group and has done so for
years.
>> I would suggest that if his animosity runs rampant in this group with
>little
>> provocation, it is likely that any customer stands the chance of
receiving
>> the same treatment. Also,
>> it is reported that he is a felon and is operating an on line business
>> illegally.
>>
>>
>> Knucklehead wrote in message
>> <2Jkx6.16800$Wz.65...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...
>> >Thanks. I'll check it out.
>> >
>> >"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
jim
sinister arrogance ignores and disrupts this group and has for years.
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
>Thanks.
>
>I have to admit that *one* of the other gentleman's barbs is *almost*
>correct. One of my purposes in being here is to sell equipment. IMO that's
>not such a bad thing. :)
>--
>Regards,
>Robert L Bass
>
>=============================>
>Bass Home Electronics
>The Online DIY Alarm Store
>http://www.Bass-Home.com
>4883 Fallcrest Circle
>Sarasota, FL 34233
>877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
>941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
>941-923-6238 fax
>Rober...@home.com
>=============================>
>
jim
of their software. What do you think it means?
========================================
Upon your acceptance of this agreement NAPCO grants to you a nonexclusive
license to use the software, provided that you agree to the following
1 Use of the Software. The software is a tool intended to assist trained
alarm installation personnel in the programming of burglar and fire alarm
control panels manufactured by NAPCO. It has NOT been designed, nor is it
intended for use by individuals who have not been fully trained and
certified/ licensed in the service, installation and programming of burglar
and fire alarm systems.
2 Distribution of the Software. The software is ONLY available in North
America directly from NAPCO or outside the USA from one of NAPCO's
authorized International distributors. It may not be copied, transferred or
redistributed in any manner without the expressed written permission of
NAPCO. Unauthorized reproduction or distribution of the software or any
portion thereof is strictly prohibited.
3 Copyright and Trademark Rights. The Software is owned by NAPCO and its
structure, organization and code are the valuable trade secrets of NAPCO.
The Software also is protected by United States Copyright Law and
International Treaty provisions. Except as stated above, this Agreement does
not grant you any intellectual property rights in the Software.
4 Restrictions. You agree not to modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer,
decompile, disassemble or otherwise attempt to discover the source code of
the software. Although you may customize the installation of the software to
a particular workstation, you may not alter or modify the code in any way.
================================
The balance of the statement includes the standard warranties and liability
disclaimers.
Doesn't it say it's for alarm installation personnel ------ certified /
licensed?
Doesn't it say it is available only directly from NAPCO?
Seems pretty clear to me.
John wrote in message ...
>"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
>news:hwIx6.180347$p66.53...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
>> Is giving it to end users "illegal" ? Perhaps, in the strict sense of the
>> word, the same way copying copyrighted software for personal use is
>illegal,
>> but we all know how common this is........
>
>I know it's common, but I also know that *if* I did that I would be
breaking
>the law. I'm speaking purely hypothetically when I ask these questions. I
>want to know *if* I use a certain companies software, *am* I breaking the
>law because I'm a DIY'er.
>
Robert L Bass
modem access is something they rarely need.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:06C436E4D192434D.4CBB382E...@lp.airnews.net...
>
Robert L Bass
software along to an end user. It is simply the decision of the individual
installing company whether to give it out. That is as it should be. If you
feel that your clients are best served by you doing all programming for
them, then you should not give it out. If you should ever decide otherwise,
you would be within your rights to do so.
As another member of the forum pointed out, software is not really the issue
here.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
"Graeme mcKenzie" <mckenz...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3ac8...@clear.net.nz...
Jacob Ashbury
> You're right. Most end users only want access to their own panels. As
such,
> modem access is something they rarely need.
???
This being the case, as stated by the world and history's self-proclaimed #1
expert should cause anyone in the security industry alarm.
Those 'others' (the ones not included in MOST) constitute a real access
danger.
Finally Bass, we agree on something- you are illegally providing means for
'some' to access others alarm systems.
JtSfR
Robert Skinner
one of their regional sales managers if it was ok to give the end user a
copy of the software. He said sure, if they buy the panel. (I have asked
for software more than ten times now and they have not sent me a copy yet.)
If I developed software for use by trade professionals and only gave them to
those in the trade who install my panels, I would ask that they not dispense
my software to those who I never intended to have it. The only recourse I
would have would be to stop providing the product to someone who does
distribute it. If that happens; you know that they did not you to
redistribute it.
When I opened my accounts at both Tri-Ed and ADI, I had to prove that I was
in the trade. That allowed me access to product and information that others
did not have who were not in the trade. If I then offer people who are not
in the trade proprietary information, am I not now violating the agreement I
had to get the information in the first place? Philosophy was not my best
subject in University.
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:A3Kx6.276176$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> When I obtain a legitimate copy through DSC authorized channels (i.e., my
> distributor) I am under no obligation to DSC to withhold that unopened
copy
> from my clients. The notice on the shrink wrap of most software states
that
> by opening it you are agreeing to its terms. I don't open it and am under
no
> obligation to adhere to it. I can glue it to the wall as a decoration if I
> like. Side note: some dealers have reportedly affixed Apex software to
> targets at the shooting range. :^)
>
> My client obtains the software from me quite legally. When he opens it, he
> is then bound not to copy and further distribute it. But it's now his
> license to use. The manufacturer can't force him to throw it out just
> because he's not a member of ASA or something.
>
> The copyright law is designed to protect software developers' business
> interests; not to protect alarm installers from competition.
> --
Robert L Bass
distributors. I've done business with ADI for many years. Nowhere in their
agreement is there even a mention of "proprietary information" or any
reference to software. Just because you choose not to sell or give perfectly
legitimate issues of fully licensed software to your clients (which is your
privilege), that does not mean that there is some vapor-law which prevents
me from doing so.
Just to make this issue clear, the issue for most install only dealers is
not about software or hardware. They make their living selling monitoring
contracts. The biggest fear these people have is that the means to reprogram
alarms (and thereby escape from being locked into a multi-year relationship
with some alarm company) will become commonly available.
The money is the only issue. I don't force my clients into a long-term
contract. If they want monitoring, it's available. If they choose to leave,
that is their right. I give them the knowledge and the tools to make their
own choices. That scares the daylights out of those whose customer service
is so bad that if they could their clients would leave them in droves.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
Robert Skinner wrote:
>
> When I opened my accounts at both Tri-Ed and ADI,
> I had to prove that I was in the trade...
>
> ... If I then offer people who are not in the trade
> proprietary information, am I not now violating the
> agreement I had to get the information in the first
> place...
Group Moderator
I prefer to send my DIY clients a fully licensed copy of the software on a
manufacturer supplied CD-ROM.
Mike Said
You can prefer all you like. Let me see you try that shit with ADEMCO. Next
time they will prosecute your dumb ass. You got away cheap with the first
warning. I see that you removed it from your site. L-O-S-E-R.
Robert L Bass
specifically to Robert Skinner. For all I know, he may be the best installer
in the country. He couldn't possibly be the worst, because that title
resides in Matawan, NJ. ;^)
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B6y6.277445$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Ass't Group Moderator
wrong?
By the way- what's with this answering yourself?
I'll answer you.
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9k7y6.277589$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Ass't Group Moderator
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Tx1y6.276801$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Group Moderator
Tell us about ADEMCO's view on software
Mike, Sr.
Alarm Services Inc.(NJ)
Group Moderator
http://www.AlarmServicesInc.Com
Jacob Ashbury
though.
Unlike Bass, you at least tried to get a definitive answer.
JtSfR
"Robert Skinner" <omegapr...@on.aibn.com> wrote in message
news:Vn6y6.586523$JT5.16...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jack Stevens
my little corner of it.
--
Jack Stevens
You never fail until you stop trying!
Visit our web site at http://www.alarm-company.com
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a93dm$afo$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
Group Moderator
One of my purposes in being here is to sell equipment. IMO that's
not such a bad thing. :)
Mike Said:
# 1 Then do it legally get a license in the state of Florida (which you know
you can't)
# 2 Do it Via *PRIVATE E-mail
# 3 Keep the "I am so happy I can shit because I bought my equipment from Goofy
out of *OUR* NG.
# 4 Speak when you are spoken to.
Jack Stevens
customers may leave anytime as long as I'm allowed to recover my account
number and phone numbers from the panel.
I do not provide the software to end users for two reasons:
1 I do not want them changing anything in the installer programming section
without my knowledge, for obvious reasons.
2 I recognize that the vast majority of alarm installing companies also do
not want me to provide the software to my customers, because it does create
a security risk, however small. I believe giving the software to my
customers or DIYers constitutes unprofessional behavior in the eyes of my
peers, regardless of the technicalities of license agreements.
You may have, as you say, the right to do as you please. However, you must
also accept the fact that you are, and will always be considered a buffoon
and a whore by many of the members of this group.
Jack Stevens
You never fail until you stop trying!
Visit our web site at http://www.alarm-company.com
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B6y6.277445$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
RodneyBritt
Jake writes
Rodney Brittain
Alarm Referral Network
Telluride Communications
970-369-0135
970-708-1018 Cell
Telluride Colorado 81435
Free Advertising for Independent Alarm Dealers
Go : <a href="www.falsealarms.com/signup.html">click</a> 36.00 Admin fee
Jacob Ashbury
Truer words have never been written.
ss: a bunch of posters
"Jack Stevens" <alarm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Cn8y6.106717$o7.41...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Jacob Ashbury
Not even one star- too good for ratings. My eyes are full of water- from
laughing and from smiling at the absolute synthesis.
GM, lots give you hell- this more than makes up for everything
JtSfR
"Group Moderator" <alarm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010402195638...@ng-cs1.aol.com...
Alan McKay
> Doesn't it say it's for alarm installation personnel ------ certified /
> licensed?
That it does, however, it says "intended". In a legal sense that's
a "cover-our-ass" line. If they really didn't want end-users using
it, they would state it far more clearly than this. The statement
they did make to me says "you can use this if you want, but if
you mess up your system don't bother calling us if you aren't
a licensed installer, because we aren't going to support you".
They just want an "out" to prevent their hotline from being
flooded by DIYers who don't know their proverbial arsehole
from a proverbial hole in the ground.
> Doesn't it say it is available only directly from NAPCO?
This is does say VERY clearly, so anyone in NA giving it out
is clearly in violation of their EULA, unless they have written
permission from Napco. Of this there is absolutely
no question.
cheers,
-Alan
Alan McKay
> This is does say VERY clearly, so anyone in NA giving it out
> is clearly in violation of their EULA, unless they have written
> permission from Napco. Of this there is absolutely
> no question.
Actually, looking back at it an authorised distributor would
have the right to give the SW to whom they please, too.
cheers,
-Alan
Mike Dupre
Well said, sir.
mikey
--
Jack Stevens <alarm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Cn8y6.106717$o7.41...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Jacob Ashbury
In your previous post you refer to 'intended.'
This is kind of like a yellow road sign instead of a white one- the yellows
are cautionary (advisory) only. Still, you can see the intent of the
manufacturer.
I still feel as I did in CHA. Any dealer that provides software to anyone
(other than a license holder) that allows that person to access others alarm
systems is irresponsible.
You can state 'its your money'- while true, the dealer has obligations to
the community. That is why licenses are required in many states- in an
attempt to FORCE ethical concerns and procedures.
Jake-
"Alan McKay" <amc...@ottawa.com> wrote in message
news:9ab7ff$fc0$1...@news.igs.net...
Mark Leuck
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B6y6.277445$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> distributors. I've done business with ADI for many years. Nowhere in their
> agreement is there even a mention of "proprietary information" or any
> reference to software. Just because you choose not to sell or give
perfectly
> legitimate issues of fully licensed software to your clients (which is
your
> privilege), that does not mean that there is some vapor-law which prevents
> me from doing so.
>
> Just to make this issue clear, the issue for most install only dealers is
> not about software or hardware. They make their living selling monitoring
> contracts. The biggest fear these people have is that the means to
reprogram
> alarms (and thereby escape from being locked into a multi-year
relationship
> with some alarm company) will become commonly available
Three flaws with that
1. Most dealers don't even know the software exists or how to get it
themselves, this is not intentional ignorance either, they really just don't
know. "downloading" is just a word for many alarm companies
2. If they have the panel monitored by that dealer we can safely assume they
are already locked into a multi-year relationship via a contract
3. I've seen the results of a customer ACCIDENTLY getting into programming
(4110 or old Vista-10), I'd hate to have many of them do it on purpose. if
its in the contract where they assume liability then fine, but in most cases
the dealer assumes this and I can't blame them for not wanting to give out
the software (assuming they know about it)
Its all about liability, if a dealer doesn't give out the software you
cannot assume they are only looking at the revenue, you have many other
factors here and I'd say that is a minor one
.> The money is the only issue. I don't force my clients into a long-term
> contract. If they want monitoring, it's available. If they choose to
leave,
> that is their right. I give them the knowledge and the tools to make their
> own choices. That scares the daylights out of those whose customer service
> is so bad that if they could their clients would leave them in droves.
I want to know what is long term? 2 years? 3? 5? most seem to hover around 3
which I don't consider really long term. Remember the customer wanted the
service in the first place, they read and signed the contract, if they don't
like it they shouldn't sign it beforehand, if they find out later the
service is bad they can opt out when the contract is up just like any other
service and in many cases the monitoring station WILL let them go
Mark Leuck
null modem
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Tx1y6.276801$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
Jacob Ashbury
need, just curious what you mean about it in more depth.
Jake-
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:C862718271A75B71.524E710C...@lp.airnews.net...
Robert Skinner
To make my point simple, if one of my customers wants the software I will
send them to ADI and Tri-ed depending on the panel. They will be asked if
they are an accredited installation company. The customer says no, then my
supplier will ask them to contact me as they don't deal with the end user.
I can send them directly to DSC or Ademco and they will get the same
response. I have always felt that the software was an installers tool but
on the other hand I will leave the manual on the premises in the box should
the end user ask for it as he purchased the panel from me. I also give them
the installers code which I write in the inside of the manual cover should
they wish to change companies. I also tell them that they will be 100%
liable for anything they screw up if they try to play with the programming.
They will get to pay if they want to play. Will I give them software? Nope.
Do I think that you should give out the software, no. That's my opinion but
I won't berate you or call you names because you do. I will offer you the
same respect that I offer all my competitors whether I approve of your
methods or not.
I don't sell monitoring contracts, I sell service. In the past 12 months my
attrition rate has been a whopping zero. One of the options my customers
have is that they can pay for their equipment over time in which case I
require a long term commitment until the equipment is paid for. I also
ensure that they can complete a buy out if they are not satisfied with the
service. Another option they have is monthly monitoring with no service
agreement attached should they have purchased the equipment from another
supplier. There are tons of independents out there who are very committed
to service. Yes, we are all in it for the money. I have to earn a living
to pay for my ISP.
What is a "Vapor Law"? Is that the same thing as a "Chad Law".
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B6y6.277445$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
AlarmGuy
ages. People can and will obtain the software for their panels if they want
it bad enough. Nothing bad is going to happen. The real threat will come
from hackers and high tech agencies capable of writing their own software
anyhow.
Man, I've never seen a majority of folks so afraid of loosing control.
Sorry people, but you can't dictate the future of technology.
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9aab2t$p1r$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
RobertCampbell
probably about to make it hotter !!) I also realize that I might be almost
alone in my opinion (I sure am with my colleagues locally) but I agree with
RLB that there is absolutely no need for anything more than a monthly term
contract provided the client has fully paid for his system up front.
Monitoring is a vital part of any client's alarm system, but it should NOT
require a long term commitment on the part of the customer. We all know why
it's done - simply to ensure the dealer's long term revenue stream (or to
pay for the typical "free" system) but I have yet to hear ONE SINGLE REASON
why a consumer should ever be forced to sign up for a long term if he owns
the system outright from day one. It's strictly industry self serving !!
Speaking from a consumer's point of view, it severely limits his ability to
choose another service provider if he is not happy with his current level of
service. After six years in this business, I have come to totally believe
that the industry standard long term contract requirement does not in any
way serve the alarm buying public, and as such, as competition heats up,
will eventually disappear as more companies actively discourage the need to
sign a long term monitoring contract. Market pressures always eliminate
through competition those things that ultimately don't serve the buying
publics long term best interests. It may take awhile, but it WILL eventually
happen !!! Dealers have argued with me that it keeps customers from hopping
from dealer to dealer to shave their monitoring prices. I personally don't
believe that, considering the amount of "inertia" I see from personal
experience that exists with many customers who really should leave their
current dealer. My monitoring prices are not the lowest around, yet I have
never lost a customer to someone else at a lower price - only through death,
or because the customer has moved away. And what good is a contract if the
customer wishes to leave anyway; what are you going to do; hold a gun to his
head ? No, I firmly believe that both the more sophisticated consumer as
well as the general buying public (once they become a little more educated
on how to shop for security services) will begin to see through this
industry requirement for a long term contract, and start to demand to be
treated properly.....
I've also heard all the valid industry arguments about how it increases the
worth of your accounts when you go to sell ...yadda, yadda...but in my
"newbie" opinion, I see it used far too often by companies large AND small
to keep a client, when frankly their service stinks, and they deserve to
lose the client (plus, in the several seminars I have attended on the
subject, there are a great many other factors that come in to play to
determine the worth of your accounts besides the presence of a long term
contract !!) Perhaps in the totally unregulated environment of Ontario,
where no licensing or training is required, the problem of poor service to
clients may be more extreme, but somehow, I don't think that things differ
much elsewhere generally speaking ....
In my relatively short time in this industry, I have come to firmly believe
that the only way to keep your clients happy is through good, fair, timely
service; not through hobbling them to a long term contract !! Some might
suggest that it guarantees the customer a fixed rate for a fixed term. THAT
is just not so with most contracts - especially the ones I've seen from the
Borg. In fact, I'm beginning to believe that some of the Borg companies (in
our area anyway) really couldn't keep their attrition rates at manageable
levels without the customer "ball and chain" of a long term contractual
commitment (but that's another issue, and may be a temporary issue in our
area because of the short term confusion resulting from the ADT purchase of
Honeywell...)
I've thrown this question out before on the NG and never received an answer
that was not self serving (and I don't fault anyone for that by the way...).
However, give me ONE good reason why FROM A CONSUMER'S PERSPECTIVE he should
sign a long term contract. Remember, I'm not talking about the typical
situation where the client has signed with someone for a "free" system.
That's legitimate; the dealer in this situation has to get paid, and we all
know it's built in to the monitoring rate.....I'm talking about when he owns
the system free and clear.. and this includes renewals after the typical
five year "free system" term is up...
Ok, guys, shoot away.... I've got my fire extinquisher
handy.....(grin)....but it is a serious question, and I would like to hear
if there really are any advantages from the customer's perspective that I'm
missing.......I can't think of a single one......
No, I believe Robert has stated it quite correctly.........
RHC
RLB wrote.....
"The money is the only issue. I don't force my clients into a long-term
contract. If they want monitoring, it's available. If they choose to leave,
that is their right. I give them the knowledge and the tools to make their
own choices. That scares the daylights out of those whose customer service
is so bad that if they could their clients would leave them in droves."
Regards,
Robert L Bass
Jacob Ashbury
"AlarmGuy" <n...@no.net> wrote in message
news:9abhdd$kte$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Get over it already. Many of you here are obviously living in the stone
> ages. People can and will obtain the software for their panels if they
want
> it bad enough.
also.
>Nothing bad is going to happen.
Then why are you concerned?
>The real threat will come
> from hackers and high tech agencies capable of writing their own software
> anyhow.
>
> Man, I've never seen a majority of folks so afraid of loosing control.
Then why have codes? Why have licenses? Why have background checks?
Why claim to be interested in security?
> Sorry people, but you can't dictate the future of technology.
>
Sure you can.
Technology only goes where led or permitted.
Let those hackers, etc. write software.
Giving out software to access other systems is stupid- in Texas it is
illegal.
Jake-
RobertCampbell
RHC
Robert Skinner <omegapr...@on.aibn.com> wrote in message
news:hAby6.507144$f36.15...@news20.bellglobal.com...
RodneyBritt
Rodney Brittain
Jacob Ashbury
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:STby6.6159$XV.18...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> but I have yet to hear ONE SINGLE REASON
> why a consumer should ever be forced to sign up for a long term if he owns
> the system outright from day one.
Customer lives three hours (one-way) away. You charge for one month. He
refuses to renew- what are your costs to go and delete your CSs phone
number?
Is this it- you illegally and without permission access his system remotely
and change it?
There are more- this is enough for now-
>It's strictly industry self serving !!
No it isn't Robert- that's you opinion. That's all it is. It is business-
in your neck of the woods you don't do it and what you do works- that's
great!
Do I claim you are self-serving?
Do I claim you access systems and delete CS access should the customer not
re-new?
etc.
Sometimes those high horses still leave piles.
Jake-
-
jim
......
I don't think there's a right answer considering the fact that
manufacturers licensing agreements are obviously following the concerns of
the paranoid dealers.
All they have to do is provide a limited version of the software to answer
the questions that abound here. But they wont do that until the demand is
large enough.
AlarmGuy wrote in message <9abhdd$kte$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
RobertCampbell
that I wish to dial in to turn the dialers off. If he refused (not likely,
why would he..), chances are I would hear from him shortly anyway about the
keypad beeping and driving him nuts (due to its inability to communicate its
test signal to the station)....
Jake, I really don't understand how you could misinterpret my comments as
some sort of personal attack against anyone in the industry. I am simply
stating that I do not agree with the industry standard of always signing
consumers to a long term contract in ALL cases - even when there is no
legitimate business reason to do so... I have also made it a point to state
that I do not fault anyone who does it (my many local colleagues and friends
included); simply that it is an objectionable part of our industry's way of
doing business that I feel will eventually disappear on its own through the
normal affects of competitive market pressures. It will be increasingly
driven by consumers becoming more "aware" of the advantages to them of NOT
signing. Plus any company doing so, has a decided competitive advantage over
virtually everyone else....
I stated my opinion and I am asking for reasons "why" that I may be missing.
Sometimes you can get so involved in something that you miss the obvious !!
Since you say there are more reasons that you have not stated yet, please
let me know what they are when you get a chance to think about them....
Jake to use your words about "those high horses still leaving piles"....
agreed !!...but when you climb up on top of those piles, you can sometimes
see a lot further......
Regards,
RHC
Jacob Ashbury <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9abifu$aur$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Dan Wright
"jim" <ala...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:tucy6.99707$K54.14...@news02.optonline.net...
> The question is not "CAN" someone get the software ..... it 's "SHOULD"
> ......
>
> I don't think there's a right answer considering the fact that
> manufacturers licensing agreements are obviously following the concerns of
> the paranoid dealers.
>
> All they have to do is provide a limited version of the software to answer
> the questions that abound here. But they wont do that until the demand is
> large enough.
>
HAI provided both an installer package and a user package. They also charge
for both.
--
Dan Wright
Starwolf Systems
Graeme mcKenzie
Mark Leuck wrote in message
<20380755E95C88CE.BE6463F0...@lp.airnews.net>...
>
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fact that the software is not
some magical access to your alarm panel, it is only an interface you can use
instead of the keypad to access the software in your own alarm panel. If
you have your installer code, as many owners do, they can program exactly
the same things via the keypad as via the computer.
The only difference is that the computer software can allow dial-up access -
if you have the correct modem (unlikely) - and if you have the correct
passcodes (should be unlikely) - and if you know the
brand/version/model/phone number of the panel involved, not to mention
callback numbers. It would be easier to attempt programming someone else's
alarm from their keypad.
Graeme McKenzie
Jacob Ashbury
You are demeaning the "standard" for an industry that you have chosen to
participate in.
You have also used the self same standard to your advantage, have you not?
Your laws apparently are very different from many U.S. states. Cut a
monitored customer off in some states and you have lost your license. May
not bother you- didn't you post one time that licenses don't exist where you
are at?
What it is Robert is this- there are different practices(period)
Just because you use yours doesn't make it the 'only one.'
Try that keypad beeping trick in some cities I work in and you won't work
there again. Scott Alarm (defunct well respected alarm company) found that
out the hard way in a large city here.
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:qKcy6.6398$XV.20...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> Well Jake, so far that hasn't happened. If it did, I would advise the
client
> that I wish to dial in to turn the dialers off. If he refused (not likely,
> why would he..), chances are I would hear from him shortly anyway about
the
> keypad beeping and driving him nuts (due to its inability to communicate
its
> test signal to the station)....
> I am simply
> stating that I do not agree with the industry standard of always
Repeat one more time- this is NOT true! It may appear this way, but it
simply is not true. "Standard of always" is incorrect.
I don't want to have flake with you, so I'll end my post by simply stating:
I disagree with you.
Jake-
Mark Leuck
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9abifu$aur$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> news:STby6.6159$XV.18...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> > but I have yet to hear ONE SINGLE REASON
> > why a consumer should ever be forced to sign up for a long term if he
owns
> > the system outright from day one.
>
> Customer lives three hours (one-way) away. You charge for one month. He
> refuses to renew- what are your costs to go and delete your CSs phone
> number?
>
> Is this it- you illegally and without permission access his system
remotely
> and change it?
>
> There are more- this is enough for now-
Yup, MANY times that panel will continue to send signals for years, go into
runaway, you'd be paying for that system for the next decade
> >It's strictly industry self serving !!
> No it isn't Robert- that's you opinion. That's all it is. It is
business-
> in your neck of the woods you don't do it and what you do works- that's
> great!
> Do I claim you are self-serving?
> Do I claim you access systems and delete CS access should the customer not
> re-new?
> etc.
> Sometimes those high horses still leave piles.
Unless its in the monthly contract that he can indeed do such a thing, I'd
consider it a wise thing to do, I've seen thousands of panels at P1 that
haven't been active for years still sending signals, stupidity on their part
for not seriously killing the dialer earlier (we used to do that then) and
those panels cost them thousands a day easy, Robert won't have that problem
with 500 accounts but if just one dsc 1550 goes into runaway? so goes the
profit from several other systems paying the phone bill
Mark Leuck
> Well Jake, so far that hasn't happened. If it did, I would advise the
client
> that I wish to dial in to turn the dialers off. If he refused (not likely,
> why would he..), chances are I would hear from him shortly anyway about
the
> keypad beeping and driving him nuts (due to its inability to communicate
its
> test signal to the station)....
Why would it do that if you didn't kill the dialer? It would continue
sending signals that you'd have to ignore
> Jake, I really don't understand how you could misinterpret my comments as
> some sort of personal attack against anyone in the industry. I am simply
> stating that I do not agree with the industry standard of always signing
> consumers to a long term contract in ALL cases - even when there is no
> legitimate business reason to do so... I have also made it a point to
state
> that I do not fault anyone who does it (my many local colleagues and
friends
> included); simply that it is an objectionable part of our industry's way
of
> doing business that I feel will eventually disappear on its own through
the
> normal affects of competitive market pressures. It will be increasingly
> driven by consumers becoming more "aware" of the advantages to them of NOT
> signing. Plus any company doing so, has a decided competitive advantage
over
> virtually everyone else....
Again, what is considered long term?
> I stated my opinion and I am asking for reasons "why" that I may be
missing.
> Sometimes you can get so involved in something that you miss the obvious
!!
> Since you say there are more reasons that you have not stated yet, please
> let me know what they are when you get a chance to think about them....
>
> Jake to use your words about "those high horses still leaving piles"....
> agreed !!...but when you climb up on top of those piles, you can sometimes
> see a lot further......
Yea but it doesn't smell very good! :)
Side Note: I would like to thank Robert for getting me some field info on
the DSC Envoy today, he went far above and beyond what I expected, thanks
again!
Andy Bowman
> Well Jake, so far that hasn't happened. If it did, I would advise the
client
> that I wish to dial in to turn the dialers off. If he refused (not likely,
> why would he..), chances are I would hear from him shortly anyway about
the
> keypad beeping and driving him nuts (due to its inability to communicate
its
> test signal to the station)....
What would cause the inability to communicate its test signals? Unless you
de-program the panel it will still communicate to the CS, even if the codes
it sends are NOF it would still get its "kissoff" and be happy and not
generate a FTC. That's the way my CS works anyway...
Andy
Jacob Ashbury
What's your 'policy' on cutting someone off for failure to pay?
and are there different policy guidelines for different states?
Jake-
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:1D2DF4C47A64CB41.1945AE27...@lp.airnews.net...
Mark Leuck
"Graeme mcKenzie" <mckenz...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3ac9...@clear.net.nz...
>
> Mark Leuck wrote in message
> <20380755E95C88CE.BE6463F0...@lp.airnews.net>...
> >
>
> One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fact that the software is
not
> some magical access to your alarm panel, it is only an interface you can
use
> instead of the keypad to access the software in your own alarm panel. If
> you have your installer code, as many owners do, they can program exactly
> the same things via the keypad as via the computer.
Well sounds fine until one actually does it, many downloader interfaces
aren't very.......good. In some cases easier, and some harder. And the
customer may not know certain quirks of an alarm panel, take Paradox for
instance with the Spectra, the software clearly states not to connect
certain templates to older panels, now I don't know what this will do if you
tried it but a customer MAY or may not know what version panel he has and
ruin the panel (Robert Campbell I'm sure knows more about the Paradox
software than I do)
> The only difference is that the computer software can allow dial-up
access -
> if you have the correct modem (unlikely) - and if you have the correct
> passcodes (should be unlikely) - and if you know the
> brand/version/model/phone number of the panel involved, not to mention
> callback numbers. It would be easier to attempt programming someone
else's
> alarm from their keypad.
Yes, this is what I mentioned to Jake a few months ago, easy in theory, hard
or damn near impossible in reality. A customer may not know what the
difference between 4/2, CID, and SIA are and end up "fiddling with the
dials". Panel suddenly cannot call out or starts sending massive amounts of
signals and who is to blame? they can always say they never touched the
software and the blame falls to the installer.
This is fine as long as liability on his end is included in the contract, if
not then its another ball game
Robert L Bass
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
"Ass't Group Moderator" <asst@group,com> wrote in message
news:9ab0lp$edg$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> And I understood you were not ofering monitoring anymore. Guess I was
> wrong?
>
> By the way- what's with this answering yourself?
>
> I'll answer you.
>
>
> "Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:9k7y6.277589$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> > Hmm. This needs some clarification. None of the comments below refer
> > specifically to Robert Skinner. For all I know, he may be the best
> installer
> > in the country. He couldn't possibly be the worst, because that title
> > resides in Matawan, NJ. ;^)
> >
> > "Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B6y6.277445$65.14...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> > > Absolutely not. I too have accounts with ADI, Tri-Ed and several
other
> > > distributors. I've done business with ADI for many years. Nowhere in
> their
> > > agreement is there even a mention of "proprietary information" or any
> > > reference to software. Just because you choose not to sell or give
> > perfectly
> > > legitimate issues of fully licensed software to your clients (which is
> > your
> > > privilege), that does not mean that there is some vapor-law which
> prevents
> > > me from doing so.
> > >
> > > Just to make this issue clear, the issue for most install only dealers
> is
> > > not about software or hardware. They make their living selling
> monitoring
> > > contracts. The biggest fear these people have is that the means to
> > reprogram
> > > alarms (and thereby escape from being locked into a multi-year
> > relationship
> > > with some alarm company) will become commonly available.
> > >
Robert L Bass
"Ass't Group Moderator" <asst@group,com> wrote in message
news:9ab0ok$k14$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> When they do they then what? Access the neighbor's panel?
>
>
> "Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
Mark Leuck
"Robert Skinner" <omegapr...@on.aibn.com> wrote in message
news:hAby6.507144$f36.15...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> To make my point simple, if one of my customers wants the software I will
> send them to ADI and Tri-ed depending on the panel. They will be asked if
> they are an accredited installation company. The customer says no, then
my
> supplier will ask them to contact me as they don't deal with the end user.
> I can send them directly to DSC or Ademco and they will get the same
> response. I have always felt that the software was an installers tool but
> on the other hand I will leave the manual on the premises in the box
should
> the end user ask for it as he purchased the panel from me. I also give
them
> the installers code which I write in the inside of the manual cover should
> they wish to change companies. I also tell them that they will be 100%
> liable for anything they screw up if they try to play with the
programming.
> They will get to pay if they want to play. Will I give them software?
Nope.
Could they not do as much damage with the installer manual instead of the
download software? I'd think it would be much easier. Could you prove they
went into programming and screwed things up? maybe you can and maybe you
can't...they can always play dumb in court who tends to favor the individual
over the "big bad company"
> I don't sell monitoring contracts, I sell service. In the past 12 months
my
> attrition rate has been a whopping zero.
Uh ohh, don't let FREESBACK see that, he'll go off on you :) (inside joke)
Mark Leuck
>
> "AlarmGuy" <n...@no.net> wrote in message
> news:9abhdd$kte$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > Get over it already. Many of you here are obviously living in the stone
> > ages. People can and will obtain the software for their panels if they
> want
> > it bad enough.
> Yeah, and people will shop-lift and steal cars if they want them bad
enough
> also.
Yes but one is clearly illegal, the other nobody here seems to be sure
> >Nothing bad is going to happen.
> Then why are you concerned?
>
> >The real threat will come
> > from hackers and high tech agencies capable of writing their own
software
> > anyhow.
> >
> > Man, I've never seen a majority of folks so afraid of loosing control.
> Then why have codes? Why have licenses? Why have background checks?
> Why claim to be interested in security?
>
> > Sorry people, but you can't dictate the future of technology.
> >
> Sure you can.
> Technology only goes where led or permitted.
> Let those hackers, etc. write software.
> Giving out software to access other systems is stupid- in Texas it is
> illegal.
What law is this? (I'm curious)
Robert L Bass
You have to be kidding, Mark. Most dealers don't know there is software to
download to the alarms they sell? If they don't know the most basic facts
about the tools available to them, maybe they ought to consider another line
of work.
> 2. If they have the panel monitored by that dealer we can safely assume
they
> are already locked into a multi-year relationship via a contract
I didn't say they weren't. I only said that what the worst slime in the
industry fear most is that the general public will become aware of how
easily they can get away from those dealers.
> 3. I've seen the results of a customer ACCIDENTLY getting into programming
> (4110 or old Vista-10), I'd hate to have many of them do it on purpose. if
> its in the contract where they assume liability then fine, but in most
cases
> the dealer assumes this and I can't blame them for not wanting to give out
> the software (assuming they know about it)
The reality is that by using the software a customer (DIY or not) is far
less likely to mess up the system than by attempting keypad programming.
> Its all about liability...
No, it's all about money. If customers are mistreated they will try to find
a way to get out of the relatiuonship. Good dealers have nothing to fear but
the sleazy outfits like Milford have everything to fear.
> ..., if a dealer doesn't give out the software you
> cannot assume they are only looking at the revenue, you have many other
> factors here and I'd say that is a minor one
That's your opinion and what I said is my opinion.
> I want to know what is long term? 2 years? 3? 5?
It makes no difference. We're discussing the fears that some dealers have of
losing their iron clad grip on their hapless vict... er, clients; not the
length of the contract.
Mark Leuck
DSC panels (1555, Envoy, 5010 etc) have and so does Napco (they've had a
direct connect for years)
In the case of Napco it fools the modem into thinking its connecting over a
regular phone line, in the case of DSC you have a designed interface and
don't need the modem, just plug the PCLink cable into the serial port and
panel connector and your off (requires a command while in panel programming)
A Null modem is just a couple of crossed wires in a serial connector, used
with computers for years (Laplink is one), during a Westinghouse training
session the guy used one with an FBI XL2 to download it, many panels have
diagrams in the installation manuals to make one (the PC2550 and 4000 and
several Radionics panels come to mind) I've been wanting to make one for a
long time but too lazy to do it.
I have an old tone dialer simulator at work I use sometimes, it fakes a dial
tone, I use it to run from a test panel to receiver using no active phone
lines, works like a charm however the damn thing is a bit bulky to carry
around, I ordered a smaller one thats about the size of a pack of smokes but
its on backorder
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9abf04$ss2$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...