DSC DLS software @ BassHome
Jacob Ashbury
and the asking to anyone, even non-customers- I'll bet your DSC dealers just
love to here that. But you will, of course, tell them it doesn't matter
because no one can access another persons alarm system- right? It must be
magic that CS operators every day access
DSCs without download enabled or knowing specific codes in advance- pure
magic.
Now I can see why Ademco yanked him last year and ITI refused to let him
become a dealer-
I always liked DSC and held them in the same high regard as Ademco- I'm
gonna have to re-think that. I may lower them to the DIY novelty grade, you
know the stuff from Home Depot and Bass Home.
Jake-
Cliff Grubb
to throw them insight to the free software.
CG
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:92cass$k1o$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Mark Leuck
"Cliff Grubb" <cave...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Ysq26.3142$IL1.1...@news2.atl...
> My company installs DSC, which I order directly from Canada. I will be
sure
> to throw them insight to the free software.
Explain that about anyone can get a DSC CD from any Tri-ed with about as
much effort as one can get a Compass disk from ADI
Mark Leuck
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:92cass$k1o$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
free
> and the asking to anyone, even non-customers- I'll bet your DSC dealers
just
> love to here that. But you will, of course, tell them it doesn't matter
> because no one can access another persons alarm system- right? It must be
> magic that CS operators every day access
> DSCs without download enabled or knowing specific codes in advance- pure
> magic.
It is indeed magic if they can do that to a non-enabled panel, perhaps you
can explain how this is done
> Now I can see why Ademco yanked him last year and ITI refused to let him
> become a dealer-
I suppose you can explain why ITI equipment used to be sold over the counter
by Radio Shack and Sears?
> I always liked DSC and held them in the same high regard as Ademco- I'm
> gonna have to re-think that. I may lower them to the DIY novelty grade,
you
> know the stuff from Home Depot and Bass Home.
That only reinforces my opinion that you don't know that much about security
systems :)
Cliff Grubb
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:50C4973F03DE3F21.D91B5808...@lp.airnews.net...
Robert L Bass
>
> ITI=as close to s*** as you can get without the smell.
Interesting analysis. I've heard nothing but good about ITI from numerous
dealers in this forum. Many seem to feel that ITI is just as good as
hard-wired. Clearly, that can't happen but it's performance apparently is
so close as to make the difference insignificant. At least, that is what
the majority of the dealers here have been expressing for some time now.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
Jacob Ashbury
Simon and DSC field knowledge.
Supposing I don;t know "that much," we both are stupid.
Jake-
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:50C4973F03DE3F21.D91B5808...@lp.airnews.net...
>
Mark Leuck
> ITI=as close to shit as you can get without the smell.
You haven't dealt with them recently I see, we monitor perhaps 70-100,000
ITI panels of various models and they are by far the most reliable panel out
there, even the low-end Simon has more features than many larger panels AND
the wireless is by far the best
Mark Leuck
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@home.com> wrote in message
news:day26.135442$65.10...@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com...
> Cliff Grubb wrote:
> >
> > ITI=as close to s*** as you can get without the smell.
>
> Interesting analysis. I've heard nothing but good about ITI from numerous
> dealers in this forum. Many seem to feel that ITI is just as good as
> hard-wired. Clearly, that can't happen but it's performance apparently is
> so close as to make the difference insignificant. At least, that is what
> the majority of the dealers here have been expressing for some time now.
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
ITI does make hardwired system as well, always have, previous models had
quirky programming, they changed program formats with every new release
however the new Concord and Simon series seems to have done away with that
And yes clearly wireless CAN be just as good as hardwired but we've already
argued that point
Mark Leuck
> Maybe I don't know "that much" but I killed your smart-ass last year on
> Simon and DSC field knowledge.
> Supposing I don;t know "that much," we both are stupid.
And I "killed" you on Simon and DSC as well last year :)
Hey do you know what the SIA signal AU DIOCA means?
Jacob Ashbury
You died and withdrew-
You lost the Simon argument!
As to your SIA question- no. I haven't a clue. Will be interesting to find
out. Does it affect hands on programming?
Can I use this knowledge with Ademco, ITI, DCS, Caddx, Linear and now
Visonics?
Maybe a little on the old Radionics 4112 but I doubt it- the programming
seems limited.
Anyway, please enlighten me.
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:5A058426DCEAB978.2524AB3B...@lp.airnews.net...
Jim L
prefer it on CD since I have a laptop with that capability. Does DSC offer
it or do I have to get it through a dealer.
Tanks
Jim L
Robert L Bass
(not a copy) with the system on request. If you already own the system you
can still get a legal copy of the software. Give me a call.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-923-6238 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>
"Jim L" <SLU...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:92fi98$2a7u$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Mark Leuck
> You 'killed' me on the Simon and DSC? BS
> You died and withdrew-
>
> You lost the Simon argument!
>
> As to your SIA question- no. I haven't a clue. Will be interesting to
find
> out. Does it affect hands on programming?
> Can I use this knowledge with Ademco, ITI, DCS, Caddx, Linear and now
> Visonics?
1. Yes
2. No
It's a 2-way voice callback signal
> Maybe a little on the old Radionics 4112 but I doubt it- the programming
> seems limited.
Nope, and I hate that panel as well as it's 6112 brother...yech
Mark Leuck
"Jim L" <SLU...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:92fi98$2a7u$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
You can get it from Tri-Ed, it also contains most of the manuals they have
on the web site
Jacob Ashbury
working on them and only two local installers were "certified." Hundreds
(maybe into the thousands) had been installed locally. These two guys used
to charge more money to work on a system, even changing codes, then most
people ever would want to pay. That's changed in the last couple years.
I picked up a programmer and took it home with a panel (all up until then
had been replaced.) The programmer still had the factory plastic on the
cords. No one that had touched it could figure it out and the books seemed
confusing. I am no computer genius by any stretch- all I have going for me
is persistence. Probably because I learned what little I do know about
computers from Tandy/Radio Shack Model I and III days the Rad programmer was
easy-
I was lucky enough to grasp the book at the first sitting, again probably
because of using those arcane Radio Shack books, and went with a new
approach to two dealers that had spent thousands replacing Rad panels.
Boom, three a day minimum for months. I did go back to the first three and
correct a little programming but the rest were a true breeze.
Strange little panel- lots of model changes. Depending on the humidity and
the model/series, lightning seemed to generate numerous service calls.
These ended up being telephone cheapies after a few times.
I loved the keypad- truly customer designed.
The higher grade keypad was just like everyone else's LED- it sucked.
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:EC3FFA79257D0E5E.90C2F304...@lp.airnews.net...
Mark Leuck
> The Rad 4112 made me some really good vacation money. Almost no one liked
> working on them and only two local installers were "certified." Hundreds
> (maybe into the thousands) had been installed locally. These two guys
used
> to charge more money to work on a system, even changing codes, then most
> people ever would want to pay. That's changed in the last couple years.
I was once told you cannot go broke using Radionics and your experience
seems to confirm that
> I picked up a programmer and took it home with a panel (all up until then
> had been replaced.) The programmer still had the factory plastic on the
> cords. No one that had touched it could figure it out and the books
seemed
> confusing. I am no computer genius by any stretch- all I have going for
me
> is persistence. Probably because I learned what little I do know about
> computers from Tandy/Radio Shack Model I and III days the Rad programmer
was
> easy-
Yup, just updated ours with the 9000 handlers yesterday
> I was lucky enough to grasp the book at the first sitting, again probably
> because of using those arcane Radio Shack books, and went with a new
> approach to two dealers that had spent thousands replacing Rad panels.
> Boom, three a day minimum for months. I did go back to the first three
and
> correct a little programming but the rest were a true breeze.
> Strange little panel- lots of model changes. Depending on the humidity
and
> the model/series, lightning seemed to generate numerous service calls.
> These ended up being telephone cheapies after a few times.
> I loved the keypad- truly customer designed.
> The higher grade keypad was just like everyone else's LED- it sucked.
Radionics seems to do everything wierd, now you deal with Popits,
Octopopits, etc, I know the 2112/2412 like the back of my hand and have
remotely programmed everything else and still am not a fan of them
Zac DeLesDernier
with downloading disabled and without a code!? What kind of security is
that!? Thank God I don't have a DSC.
Zac
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Jacob Ashbury wrote:
<snip>
> because no one can access another persons alarm system- right? It must be
> magic that CS operators every day access
> DSCs without download enabled or knowing specific codes in advance- pure
> magic.
<snip>
Mark Leuck
"Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
> Holy shit! J. Random Anyone can access a (properly configured) DSC panel
> with downloading disabled and without a code!? What kind of security is
> that!? Thank God I don't have a DSC.
>
> Zac
It's also not true, they can't get into a properly configured DSC panel
without the code unless they want to make up to 9999 attempts which is very
unlikely
Glen Mackinnon
Mark Leuck
figure it out then call a panel the callback feature isn't hard to get
around, I do it every day with many brands including DSC
"Glen Mackinnon" <agm...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3A56AD27...@mb.sympatico.ca...
Carlos Antunes
Would you care to explain how? No offense, but I am a little bit
skeptical about your ability to do what you are saying...
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Mark Leuck wrote:
>
> But if they go to the trouble of getting the modem and the software and
> figure it out then call a panel the callback feature isn't hard to get
> around, I do it every day with many brands including DSC
>
--
Once you realize life is meaningless, you can start enjoying it.
RobertCampbell
Personally, I know of no way to get around the callback feature on the DSC
panels. I would consider it a personal favour if you would e mail me how to
do this by private e mail, since this kind of information IMO has no
business on a public NG.
But I would dearly love to know how to do this (dealer to dealer)
Many thanks!
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A574BDA...@cox.rr.com...
Jacob Ashbury
worked with Mark (they in the field) and they swear he can get into
virtually any system- lock out or not. these guys rate him as #1 CS tech
they have ever dealt with.
Me, I liked Joann : )
Jake-
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A574BDA...@cox.rr.com...
Zac DeLesDernier
answer the phone, right? How the hell would you get into it, then?
Zac
Zac DeLesDernier
it to the newsgroup. Perhaps it will spur them to fix it! I can't
imagine how DSC is letting systems out the door that have this flaw.
Imagine the amount of liability they are exposing themselves to. Imagine
the possible loss of life! Now, if the only method of access you are
aware of is a brute force attack, then that is different, but wow. I
always thought DSC made cheap -security systems-, not cheap -junk-.
Zac
Mark Leuck
> Carlos- I don't understand how either, but I know a few techs that have
> worked with Mark (they in the field) and they swear he can get into
> virtually any system- lock out or not. these guys rate him as #1 CS tech
> they have ever dealt with.
> Me, I liked Joann : )
>
> Jake-
They are exaggerating on the locked out panels, my lockout code list is
pretty large however and I can get into most I've tried
Joann must have been before my time?
Mark Leuck
"Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
> it to the newsgroup. Perhaps it will spur them to fix it! I can't
> imagine how DSC is letting systems out the door that have this flaw.
> Imagine the amount of liability they are exposing themselves to. Imagine
> the possible loss of life! Now, if the only method of access you are
> aware of is a brute force attack, then that is different, but wow. I
> always thought DSC made cheap -security systems-, not cheap -junk-.
>
> Zac
Jeez lets get real here, DSC makes excellent equipment, nothing is perfect
and this "trick" is something I have done on ANY brand of panel I've tried.
it is not a flaw, it is just an action of the panel and is something that
one discovers after thousands of downloads
Works with AT&T, Ademco, Napco, C&K, FBI, ITI, Cadx and Paradox
Mark Leuck
"Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
> answer the phone, right? How the hell would you get into it, then?
>
> Zac
You don't
Carlos Antunes
If the DSC panel is that easy to crack then EVERYBODY in the world
should know how crappy that system is. Why would dealers protect crappy
companies with crappy products? That wouldn't certainly benefit
consumers. If you are willing to protect those companies maybe consumers
should find another dealer, no?
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Carlos Antunes
Some people also swear Elvis is alive. Sorry, I am not that gullible.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Jacob Ashbury wrote:
>
> Carlos- I don't understand how either, but I know a few techs that have
> worked with Mark (they in the field) and they swear he can get into
> virtually any system- lock out or not. these guys rate him as #1 CS tech
> they have ever dealt with.
> Me, I liked Joann : )
>
--
RobertCampbell
products. Mark has explained to me how this works privately, and it is in no
way a reflection on DSC products. It can be done with most any other panel
on the market. Its simply a technique he has uncovered that works well. It
says more about his personal skillsets, and his obviously skillful
techniques on downloading than it does about anything else.
If dealers learn the "hacks" that exist to gain entry to security devices
such as alarm panels, this doesn't mean that these devices are any less
secure in most typical consumer applications. It simply allows us to, in
some cases, provide better service to our clients by being able to save them
money when, without that knowledge, we might have been forced to replace the
board. Nor does it mean that because I as a locksmith can "pick" virtually
any standard lock in the marketplace, those locks are "crappy" or defective,
or unsuitable for sale to consumers.
I do not understand how you can draw any conclusions about "consumers
finding another dealer" simply because one doesn't believe such information
belongs in the public domain, or because we "defend crappy companies with
crappy products"- which is simply NOT the case in this instance.
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A57B89C...@cox.rr.com...
Jim L
accomplished by hacking a control panel. You should work on developing
ways to protect your phone lines and siren boxes. Other than those who fail
to turn their systems on when they leave, these seem to be the most common
weaknesses used to make illegal entries.
Jim L
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:3963FDBA9629DBEE.37EB4AF1...@lp.airnews.net...
Mark Leuck
> Rob,
>
> If the DSC panel is that easy to crack then EVERYBODY in the world
> should know how crappy that system is. Why would dealers protect crappy
> companies with crappy products? That wouldn't certainly benefit
> consumers. If you are willing to protect those companies maybe consumers
> should find another dealer, no?
>
> Regards,
> Carlos Antunes.
Hello? we've been telling you they are NOT easy to crack, no easier than any
other system
Mark Leuck
> Jacob,
>
> Some people also swear Elvis is alive. Sorry, I am not that gullible.
>
> Regards,
> Carlos Antunes.
What on earth does that statement have to do with what Jake said?
Zac DeLesDernier
Jake says so?
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Jacob Ashbury wrote:
<snip>
> because no one can access another persons alarm system- right? It must be
> magic that CS operators every day access
> DSCs without download enabled or knowing specific codes in advance-pure
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> magic.
<snip>
Zac
jim
<rh.ca...@homemetal.com> writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: "RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com>
>Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:54:42 GMT
>
>I must say Mark, on the face of it, your statement IS difficult to swallow.
>Personally, I know of no way to get around the callback feature on the DSC
>panels. I would consider it a personal favour if you would e mail me how to
>do this by private e mail, since this kind of information IMO has no
>business on a public NG.
>
>But I would dearly love to know how to do this (dealer to dealer)
>
>Many thanks!
>
I don't have much reason to do this type of thing and particularly not as much
as Mark would have.
I don't know if it's the same trick I discovered or not, but there is one that
I've used occasionally.It depends on how the original installer programed the
system. It's more a failue of the installer then the manufacturer and it
doesn't always work.
-----------------------
Remove theQzapp to E-Mail Jim
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level
then beat you with experience.
VSS DOUG
>No, not at all.!! You are making totally incorrect assumptions about DSC
>products. Mark has explained to me how this works privately, and it is in no
>way a reflection on DSC products. It can be done with most any other panel
>on the market.
If you have a tech on site all they have to do to defeat callback is disconnect
the line from the panel when it attempts to call back and reconnect it after
you have manually dialled your own download computer number, if you have a
laptop on site it is even easier although as far as I know you do still need to
know the correct code.
Doug L
jim
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: "Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:30:06 -0600
>
>
>"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:3A57B8F8...@cox.rr.com...
>> Jacob,
>>
>> Some people also swear Elvis is alive. Sorry, I am not that gullible.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Carlos Antunes.
>
>What on earth does that statement have to do with what Jake said?
>
>>
He probably doesn't believe someone could like Joann more then you.
jim
(VSS DOUG) writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: vss...@aol.comatose (VSS DOUG)
>Date: 07 Jan 2001 02:52:57 GMT
I think the original comment was on how to get around callback, not installers
code.
Mark Leuck
"jim" <ala...@aol.comQzapp> wrote in message
news:20010106215539...@nso-mg.aol.com...
> In article
<7CAC47E2061F67E4.8D954BB2...@lp.airnews.net>,
> "Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> writes:
>
> >Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
> >From: "Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net>
> >Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:30:06 -0600
> >
> >
> >"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:3A57B8F8...@cox.rr.com...
> >> Jacob,
> >>
> >> Some people also swear Elvis is alive. Sorry, I am not that gullible.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Carlos Antunes.
> >
> >What on earth does that statement have to do with what Jake said?
> >
> >>
>
> He probably doesn't believe someone could like Joann more then you.
Heh!
Mark Leuck
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Mark Leuck wrote:
> > "Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
> > > Question I forgot to pose: A panel with downloading disabled won't
even
> > > answer the phone, right? How the hell would you get into it, then?
> > >
> > > Zac
> >
> > You don't
>
> Jake says so?
No Jake didn't
Jacob Ashbury
Nothing to do with reality.
These guys have worked with Mark and that's what they say- I believe them
based on somewhat similar experience with a different CS operator at a
different CS. Some of those folks are supreme, the rest are merely good to
great.
Elvis isn't alive?
Jake-
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A57B8F8...@cox.rr.com...
Mark Leuck
> Gullible?
> Nothing to do with reality.
> These guys have worked with Mark and that's what they say- I believe them
> based on somewhat similar experience with a different CS operator at a
> different CS. Some of those folks are supreme, the rest are merely good
to
> great.
>
> Elvis isn't alive?
Who is Joann?
And Elvis is not dead
Jacob Ashbury
Masterful at tickling panels into 'submission.' ; )
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:60CEA14005179D0B.8B919BA9...@lp.airnews.net...
Carlos Antunes
The consumers should be aware of any potential problems with THEIR
security systems, shouldn't they? After all, it's their property, their
money, that is at stake! By preventing consumers from being fully
informed about potential security problems, and how to solve them, you
are making a disservice to consumers.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
RobertCampbell wrote:
>
> I do not understand how you can draw any conclusions about "consumers
> finding another dealer" simply because one doesn't believe such information
> belongs in the public domain, or because we "defend crappy companies with
> crappy products"- which is simply NOT the case in this instance.
>
--
herm...@ridgenet.net
I use it all the time....
you can only get "in to it" via hand held programmer
Charlie
"The Lake"
"Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
RobertCampbell
message, but not in regards to complaining about DSC in the previous
situation where Mark is able to bypass the callback feature. This is not a
defect; simply a "hack" of sorts.
Yes, if equipment is put on the market which is clearly defective or not up
to the task it is sold for, you bet I think people should scream - long and
loud!! For example, a couple of years ago, Detection Systems knowingly put
out a batch of DS 835/820 motion detectors with some bad microwave parts
which caused them to false alarm in the presence of the very animals they
were supposed to be used with. This is the kind of irresponsible, unethical
behaviour that should generate some action. So if you are referring to this
kind of thing..hey...I'm with you 100% !!
But I do think that we should be cautious and find out what exactly what is
"wrong" in a given situation before complaining that it is a defect (as with
the DSC situation previously). Otherwise we'll be perceived as was the boy
who cried "Wolf"....no one will take it seriously.
Regards,
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A58199E...@cox.rr.com...
Glen Mackinnon
Zac DeLesDernier
The content of this thread goes a long way to prove that posessing
the programming software would do very little for someone attempting to
defeat a properly configured panel. The importance of making the panel
physically secure is also noted.
Zac
Zac DeLesDernier
> You do not get into it, via phone line. period.
> I use it all the time....
> you can only get "in to it" via hand held programmer
> Charlie
> "The Lake"
Is there a hand held programmer for DSC panels?
Zac
Jim L
will let you hold him in your hand while he programs the panel. Heard one
of the Village People was a programmer.
Hardy Har Har.
Jim L.
"Zac DeLesDernier" <z...@wozzle.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.101010...@rowlf.wozzle.com...
Carlos Antunes
>
> Well, Carlos, I agree with you generally as far as what you say in your last
> message, but not in regards to complaining about DSC in the previous
> situation where Mark is able to bypass the callback feature.
>
I was not complaining about the equipment, I was complaining about your
attitude. I would never trust a dealer who knows how to bypass security
features and and doesn't reveal it to customers.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Carlos Antunes
>
> Well, Carlos, I agree with you generally as far as what you say in your last
> message, but not in regards to complaining about DSC in the previous
> situation where Mark is able to bypass the callback feature.
>
I was not complaining about the equipment, I was complaining about your
attitude. I would never trust a dealer who knows how to bypass security
features and doesn't reveal it to customers.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
RobertCampbell
However, the things that I learn in this business that are of a "security
hack" in nature, I WILL keep either to myself or to others in the business
that I trust. Simply because I or any other dealer knows how in certain
instances to "hack" into a particular panel, doesn't make me or any other
dealer untrustworthy because we choose not to spill our guts over a public
NG (or as you suggest, don't reveal it to customers). Much in security is
based upon a "need to know" basis, and clients in such situations have no
need to know - nor would it be of the slightese use to them if they knew how
to perform these "hacks"!! Most are realistic enough to know that they have
to trust someone at some point, and frankly, if they can't trust their
security dealer, then they shouldn't be dealing with him or her - period!!
For example, all my clients know that a conventional lock can be "picked".
That doesn't bother them in the least !! For those very few that it does,
and they want to spend five times the amount, I'll sell them a Medeco or
Assa or any number of other high security locks to ease their concern. But I
won't show them how to pick a lock - that would be decreasing everyone's
security. And I sure as hell won't put that up on a public NG !!
There are a lot of folks on "alt.locksmithing" who come on as amateur
locksmiths, who feel that all security matters should always be a matter of
public knowledge. I've had "amateur lockpickers" who see this as a hobby,
who give me no end of sh*t for trying to keep certain things out of the
public domain. They seem to feel that "all knowledge should all shared"...I
have been blasted numerous times by people who feel locksmiths are arrogant
in keeping certain things out of the public domain. Needless to say, I
disagree completely, and will continue to exercise discretion in publicizing
things that could potentially jeopardize someone's security situation. And
this most certainly goes with alarm panel "hacks".....
I'm sorry you feel that way, but if that attitude makes me "not to be
trusted" in your eyes, then so be it !! I can live with that....
Regards,
R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A59F79E...@cox.rr.com...
Jacob Ashbury
"Jim L" <SLU...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:93clti$do12$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Jacob Ashbury
non-disclosers) disagree. Carlos, as a customer why should I give you
information that can not only defeat your system but your neighbors? Should
I set everyone's keyfob to the same activation codes?
There's an on-line store you know well, go there and get the break-in
information you feel is so important. Or keep drumming for it here and
eventually it'll pop up.
I am in line behind Campbell- some secrets of the trade are just that and
for reasons that should be rather obvious.
Jake-
"RobertCampbell" <rh.ca...@homemetal.com> wrote in message
news:BIn66.111127$59.30...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
Carlos Antunes
>
> However, the things that I learn in this business that are of a "security
> hack" in nature, I WILL keep either to myself or to others in the business
> that I trust.
>
And, at the same time, providing a disservice to your customers.
Security hacks should be exposed and corrected, not kept "secret" for
thieves to discover and use.
>
> I'm sorry you feel that way, but if that attitude makes me "not to be
> trusted" in your eyes, then so be it !! I can live with that....
>
Here's an excellent reason why I wouldn't hire a "security dealer" to
install my security system...
RobertCampbell
RobertCampbell wrote:
And, at the same time, providing a disservice to your customers.
Security hacks should be exposed and corrected, not kept "secret" for
thieves to discover and use.
Carlos, you are completely missing the point !! The "hack" that we are
talking about here is simply NOT something that anyone can use to defeat a
panel. It's simply something that Mark discovered through much experience
that allows him to overcome the callback feature in the panel - that and
that only!! Even his having shown me how to do it, I'm still not 100% sure
that I could do it - and I consider myself very competent with software and
panels. You still need all the panel ID's and account numbers just as per
normal security programming. Plus you have to be very quick to do certain
things to the point where doing what he has described to me would be
somewhat of an art in itself !! ALL you are doing is bypassing the
requirement for the panel to hang up and call you back. Nothing more !!
Clearly, if you knew more about the intricacies of upload / download, you
would appreciate better what I mean...
Here's an excellent reason why I wouldn't hire a "security dealer" to
install my security system...
That is always your option of course to do it yourself !! However, I would
still take issue with your conclusion......
Jacob Ashbury
potential customer with an attitude like yours.
Jake-
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A5A4A4A...@cox.rr.com...
Carlos Antunes
a complete stranger...
Jacob Ashbury wrote:
>
> Actually its a good reason why ANY security dealer should turn down a
> potential customer with an attitude like yours.
>
Mark Leuck
> RobertCampbell wrote:
> >
> > Well, Carlos, I agree with you generally as far as what you say in your
last
> > message, but not in regards to complaining about DSC in the previous
> > situation where Mark is able to bypass the callback feature.
> >
>
> I was not complaining about the equipment, I was complaining about your
> attitude. I would never trust a dealer who knows how to bypass security
> features and doesn't reveal it to customers.
>
> Regards,
> Carlos Antunes.
There are always means to bypass a security system, nothing is 100% and ever
will be
Mark Leuck
strangers, you will be monitored by strangers, these strangers will dispatch
police who until you meet them are strangers
The question is what strangers will you trust
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A5A6A44...@cox.rr.com...
Carlos Antunes
>
> There are always means to bypass a security system, nothing is 100% and ever
> will be
>
By maintaining possible sucurity problems "secret", no one will benefit
from potential improvements, though... Except thieves!
Regards,
Carlos Anbtunes.
Carlos Antunes
>
> You deal with strangers every day, you will buy your security equipment from
> strangers, you will be monitored by strangers, these strangers will dispatch
> police who until you meet them are strangers
>
Doesn't mean I trusted them. (I don't!) It means I have no choice.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Mark Leuck
to trust people you don't know
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A5A8A93...@cox.rr.com...
Mark Leuck
> Mark Leuck wrote:
> >
> > There are always means to bypass a security system, nothing is 100% and
ever
> > will be
> >
>
> By maintaining possible sucurity problems "secret", no one will benefit
> from potential improvements, though... Except thieves!
>
> Regards,
> Carlos Anbtunes.
How are the thieves going to find out? they don't deal with this stuff every
day, they don't do 20-40 downloads every day, they don't program 3 or 4
panels a day hell I'd say 90% can barely read!
Find out how the vast majority of burglars work and you will find the
answers, I've seen the aftermaths of around 100 burglaries and I can easily
tell you without a shadow of doubt that they aren't going to bypass ANY
security system be it at the keypad or by download software or the callback
feature
jim
writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com>
>Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 12:23:42 -0500
>
>RobertCampbell wrote:
>>
>> Well, Carlos, I agree with you generally as far as what you say in your
>last
>> message, but not in regards to complaining about DSC in the previous
>> situation where Mark is able to bypass the callback feature.
>>
>
>I was not complaining about the equipment, I was complaining about your
>attitude. I would never trust a dealer who knows how to bypass security
>features and doesn't reveal it to customers.
>
>Regards,
>Carlos Antunes.
>
Reeeealy? I know lots and lots of ways to get by most any alarm system. Theres
hardly a securtiy detection device that can't be circumvented. In fact, I can't
think of one except the new Sentrol controled radar motion detector. But I'll
have to think about that for a while.
It usually depends on how much time and effort someone wants to put into
bypassing a device and how long a time they will have access, to get by it.
-----------------------
Remove theQzapp to E-Mail Jim
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level
then beat you with experience.
jim
writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com>
>Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 18:16:26 -0500
I suspect the opposite is also true.
Mark Leuck
"jim" <ala...@aol.comQzapp> wrote in message
news:20010108232110...@nso-fo.aol.com...
> >
>
> Reeeealy? I know lots and lots of ways to get by most any alarm system.
Theres
> hardly a securtiy detection device that can't be circumvented. In fact, I
can't
> think of one except the new Sentrol controled radar motion detector. But
I'll
> have to think about that for a while.
Wait, didn't you hear about wrapping yourself in a box painted with the same
stuff as on the F117 Stealth fighter? makes those motions worthless :)
Jacob Ashbury
"Carlos Antunes" <cant...@cox.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A5A6A44...@cox.rr.com...
jim
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: "Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net>
>Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:43:05 -0600
>
>
>"jim" <ala...@aol.comQzapp> wrote in message
>news:20010108232110...@nso-fo.aol.com...
>> >
>>
>> Reeeealy? I know lots and lots of ways to get by most any alarm system.
>Theres
>> hardly a securtiy detection device that can't be circumvented. In fact, I
>can't
>> think of one except the new Sentrol controled radar motion detector. But
>I'll
>> have to think about that for a while.
>
>Wait, didn't you hear about wrapping yourself in a box painted with the same
>stuff as on the F117 Stealth fighter? makes those motions worthless :)
>
>>
Actually, I was thinking of draping myself with Christmas tree icicles. Thought
maybe I could "fool" it into thinking I was a car only doing 55 mph.
Carlos Antunes
>
> How are the thieves going to find out?
>
It's their job, to bypass security systems and steal others people
property.
>
> they don't deal with this stuff every
> day, they don't do 20-40 downloads every day, they don't program 3 or 4
> panels a day hell I'd say 90% can barely read!
>
The danger comes from the 1% that are educated...
>
> Find out how the vast majority of burglars work and you will find the
> answers, I've seen the aftermaths of around 100 burglaries and I can easily
> tell you without a shadow of doubt that they aren't going to bypass ANY
> security system be it at the keypad or by download software or the callback
> feature
>
Remains to be seen whether 100 burglaries are statistical significant or
not.
Regards,
Carlos Antunes.
Mark Leuck
> Mark Leuck wrote:
> >
> > How are the thieves going to find out?
> >
>
> It's their job, to bypass security systems and steal others people
> property.
No its their job to break in, after the fact is when they find out a
security system is present
> > they don't deal with this stuff every
> > day, they don't do 20-40 downloads every day, they don't program 3 or 4
> > panels a day hell I'd say 90% can barely read!
> >
>
> The danger comes from the 1% that are educated...
And nothing will ever stop that last 1% no matter what you do, however the
average house isn't normally bothered by that 1% either
> Find out how the vast majority of burglars work and you will find the
> > answers, I've seen the aftermaths of around 100 burglaries and I can
easily
> > tell you without a shadow of doubt that they aren't going to bypass ANY
> > security system be it at the keypad or by download software or the
callback
> > feature
> >
>
> Remains to be seen whether 100 burglaries are statistical significant or
> not.
Good point but it does give more of an education than never seeing the
aftermath either, for instance RLB and I debated about a year ago that a
"mini" system of 3 doors and 1 motion is not adequate protection, my take is
it really is since that system would have indeed triggered on the 100
burglaries I've seen
Jacob Ashbury
More than just the two of you (Mark) 'debated'(loose use of the term) a mini
system.
A true mini is probably only a motion or similar single device. I travel
with a portable motion -
3+1 (doors and interior trip (motion)) will catch most break-ins. Granted a
thief 'may' get further in some houses without every opening protected, but
strategically placed motions will catch most thieves.
The exact %s escape me at the present, but as I recollect front door
break-ins account for 60+% of the entries into houses with back doors being
second and all other avenues ranging far down from that.
Most folks that get security systems opt for the minimum system they can
get- alarm systems are still too new and too few for the 'average' person to
realize the potential security gain. With more education and acceptance we
may see the day where full systems (perimeter and inside secondaries) will
be installed in every house- well, maybe our grandchildren will see that
day.
Jake-
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:50DCFC613D085A83.B933EC4C...@lp.airnews.net...
jim
writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com>
>Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 22:12:03 -0500
>
>Mark Leuck wrote:
>>
>> How are the thieves going to find out?
>>
>
>It's their job, to bypass security systems and steal others people
>property.
>
>>
>> they don't deal with this stuff every
>> day, they don't do 20-40 downloads every day, they don't program 3 or 4
>> panels a day hell I'd say 90% can barely read!
>>
>
>The danger comes from the 1% that are educated...
>
>>
>> Find out how the vast majority of burglars work and you will find the
>> answers, I've seen the aftermaths of around 100 burglaries and I can easily
>> tell you without a shadow of doubt that they aren't going to bypass ANY
>> security system be it at the keypad or by download software or the callback
>> feature
>>
>
>Remains to be seen whether 100 burglaries are statistical significant or
>not.
>
I would think that it would also be statistically significant to determine just
how many alarms are bypassed.
I have never had an alarm system bypassed by an unknown intruder. A couple of
bypasses by known intruders ( employees). I have had ....maybe a dozen (?)
smash and grabs ... in about 30 years. I've only heard of a few times that a
system had been circumvented but I seem to remember that mostly it was due to
prior knowledge of the premisis, by accident or the system wasn't armed or
installed properly.
Personally I think it's something you see in the movies.
Mark Leuck
"Jacob Ashbury" <ch...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:93gsdp$cbc$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> 11 1/2?
> More than just the two of you (Mark) 'debated'(loose use of the term) a
mini
> system.
> A true mini is probably only a motion or similar single device. I travel
> with a portable motion -
> 3+1 (doors and interior trip (motion)) will catch most break-ins. Granted
a
> thief 'may' get further in some houses without every opening protected,
but
> strategically placed motions will catch most thieves.
> The exact %s escape me at the present, but as I recollect front door
> break-ins account for 60+% of the entries into houses with back doors
being
> second and all other avenues ranging far down from that.
Yup, I've read that as well although I too do not know the exact figures,
the one time I've seen any different is when someone broke into a bathroom
window right by the back slider, and in that case they apparently opened the
slider to let others in, a well placed motion as well as the back door
sensor would have picked them up almost immediately (of course so would a
window sensor but we are talking about a 3 + 1 system)
Is it better to have all windows connected? sure butif they aren't that
doesn't mean you have little or no security either
> Most folks that get security systems opt for the minimum system they can
> get- alarm systems are still too new and too few for the 'average' person
to
> realize the potential security gain. With more education and acceptance
we
> may see the day where full systems (perimeter and inside secondaries) will
> be installed in every house- well, maybe our grandchildren will see that
> day.
And hopefully all houses will by then be prewired too, I always hated
hardwiring windows :)
Jacob Ashbury
I'm quitting counting- must be a Kharmatic divergence.
Jake-
"Mark Leuck" <mle...@iadfw.net> wrote in message
news:93h5mo$l...@library1.airnews.net...
Carlos Antunes
>
> No its their job to break in, after the fact is when they find out a
> security system is present
>
Their job is to break in and NOT get caught. A security system increases
their chances of being caught. Therefore, it is to the advantage of any
thief to first disable, or bypass, the security system. If I assume that
all thieves are dumb, I am doing myself a disservice by increasing my
chances of getting my house burgled.
>
> And nothing will ever stop that last 1% no matter what you do, however the
> average house isn't normally bothered by that 1% either
>
Well, I still like to increase their chances of being caught and reduce
my risk at the same time. The probably of having my house burgled by
one of these 1% may be very small but is certainly non-zero.
Mark Leuck
> Mark Leuck wrote:
> >
> > No its their job to break in, after the fact is when they find out a
> > security system is present
> >
>
> Their job is to break in and NOT get caught. A security system increases
> their chances of being caught. Therefore, it is to the advantage of any
> thief to first disable, or bypass, the security system. If I assume that
> all thieves are dumb, I am doing myself a disservice by increasing my
> chances of getting my house burgled.
I cannot say all thieves are dumb but from what I have seen a vast majority
are, if they aren't turned away by signs and stickers they kick in the door
and maybe rip the keypad or the siren off the wall and try to get something
of value, the security system prevents them from taking all day running
through your house
Do they cut phone wires? almost never
Do they grab download software and try hacking the computer from outside? no
Do they break a window and try getting in without opening it? rarely
Most burglars are kids who don't know jack about a security system, the only
thing they may know is their Nintendo or Sega
> Well, I still like to increase their chances of being caught and reduce
> my risk at the same time. The probably of having my house burgled by
> one of these 1% may be very small but is certainly non-zero.
I certainly agree, my comments were based on the opinions of others in this
NG who think that 3 doors and a motion are not considered security which is
simply not true and would have easily triggered in every instance of a
burglary that I have seen in my 10 years in the industry, however if you can
afford more protection by all means get it, however many people out there
cannot afford 2 grand for all doors and windows wired, cellular backup,
glassbreaks etc
Mark Leuck
"John & Sue Mackenzie" <jmac...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote in message news:3A5E420C...@fox.nstn.ca...Me too,I have trouble getting on line with our systems when I know the codes, especially if answering machine defeat is not enabled.
John
Carlos Antunes wrote:
Mark,Would you care to explain how? No offense, but I am a little bit
skeptical about your ability to do what you are saying...Regards,
Carlos Antunes.Mark Leuck wrote:
>
> But if they go to the trouble of getting the modem and the software and
> figure it out then call a panel the callback feature isn't hard to get
> around, I do it every day with many brands including DSC
jim
writes:
>Subject: Re: DSC DLS software @ BassHome
>From: Carlos Antunes <cant...@cox.rr.com>
>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:58:04 -0500
>
>Mark Leuck wrote:
>>
>> No its their job to break in, after the fact is when they find out a
>> security system is present
>>
>
>Their job is to break in and NOT get caught. A security system increases
>their chances of being caught. Therefore, it is to the advantage of any
>thief to first disable, or bypass, the security system. If I assume that
>all thieves are dumb, I am doing myself a disservice by increasing my
>chances of getting my house burgled.
>
>>
>> And nothing will ever stop that last 1% no matter what you do, however the
>> average house isn't normally bothered by that 1% either
>>
>
>Well, I still like to increase their chances of being caught and reduce
>my risk at the same time. The probably of having my house burgled by
>one of these 1% may be very small but is certainly non-zero.
>
But your point, I believe, was to tell every customer the short comings of the
products that we install. How far does one go with that? Shall we sit and tell
them how to get by a magnetic contact? A motion detector? Shock sensors? Every
thing we install can be gotten around, one way or another. It just depends on
how much the intruder knows about such things and/or the value of what the
intruder is after. History tells us, that the typical, every day residential
brea kin is simply a smash and run. There is no forethought involved. Now, is
you want to talk about some of the wealthy homes, well thats another story.
They have more to loose, so you would think that they would be willing to spend
more on their secuity. I don't find that to be so. Many, really don't care is
someone takes things from their house, they'll simply replace it. They are only
concerned with the " possibility " that something "may" occur. Most are of a
mind that they live in a "good" area and an alarm is just a precaution. They're
quite aware that they could protect their homes like a fortress, but they're
really not that concerned.
On the other hand, people who live in "bad" neighborhoods, more afraid for
their personal safety and are more likely to be broken into, but they are
usually least likely able to afford a system that would be hard to bypass
somthing.
The wealthy peoples chances of experiencing an intrusion may be less, but if it
occurs, it's usually professionally done, and if the home is "not" protected to
the max, with backups for the backup, it's going to happen.
To sit down at a sales presentation, and suggest a system to some one and then
tell them how to get by all of the things you've just suggested would be rather
a bizzar method.
I suggest what I believe to be a system that meet the needs of the dweling and
the concerns of the client. Cost is "always" a major concern and consideration,
whether they have money or not. So all that can be done is to suggest what will
best do the job, keeping within what ever the customer has in mind as a
reasonable price to pay. I always suggest more, they reach a point that the
increased cost is not worth it. They'd rather take the risk. For instance, I
probably sell one back up radio for every 7 to 10 jobs. Do I always ask? Sure.
Do I tell them why it's a good idea to have it? Sure. Most don't want to pay
the additional monitoring. They take the risk that someone could cut their
lines, but they're betting it wont happen. They make the choice. If they don't
want contacts on the second floor windows, do they know that they are takeing a
risk that someone can put a ladder up to a window? Sure.
Etc ....... etc