How do you find 'pre-wired' wiring?
J.M. Morgan
Keith M. Cory wrote:
>
> Another newbie question.....
>
> If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
> alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
> Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
>
> Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech way
> that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
>
When our company pre-wires homes, we just go ahead and install the
window or door switches. We make our own long drills, so are able to use
a somewhat smaller hole than the 3/8 inch hole that most companies do.
(We use 17/64 ths).
Wires for such things as motion detectors, fire detectors, keypads etc,
should be left in the wall. Make a 6 to 10 turn service loop in the
wire . . . it will make it easier to locate w/ a cable locator at a
later time. It also helps to put the location on a diagram.
When you have the walls open, don't forget to run extra wire from the
control panel to the attic etc. Do you want to wire for speakers, home
run the telco so you can have a small business system. Wire for a DSS
dish. You can never have too much wire!
--
bumper
Napa CA USA - 201 N58065, 7AC Champ NC31346, Starduster N73R
To reply, remove _DELETE_ from address.
Keith M. Cory
Another newbie question.....
If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech way
that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
Keith Cory
Fightcrime
Keith M. Cory" <kc...@netcom.com> wrote:
>If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
>alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
>Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
If you have the same person or company come out it should not be a
concern, they should have standards they follow as far as placement
of devices and wires, they should also have some notes on the job that
were taken when it was prewired.
>Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech way
>that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
Hidden or lost wires can easily be found with a Inductive Amplifier/Tone
Set such as the one from Progessive Electronics. The tone generator is
attached to the end of the wires (at the panel location) and the amplifier
is then used to pinpoint the end of the wire in the wall, however, if the wire
has a short on it your chances of finding it are very slim as it will short out
the tone generated by the toner.
If you are interested in such a device I can sell you the set, contact me
via private email for pricing.
David J. Rosso
Affordable Home Security Systems
--------------------------------------------------
http://members.aol.com/fightcrime
Robert L. Bass
There are several things you can and should do during pre-wiring to make it
easier to locate the wires later. First, as has been pointed out by another
poster, the magnetic contacts should be installed in the windows and doors
during the pre-wire. Otherwise, there will be open holes in your doors and
window sills until the installation is completed. The magnetic contacts are
not expensive. Typical retail cost runs from $3.50 to $5 apiece for the
better made units.
Taking photos of the pre-wire is a good idea, but not just for your alarm
system. It may come in real handy when servicing or upgrading the phones,
CATV, etc. In addition to photos, a few simple schematic drawings should be
made. The builder probably will furnish you with a set of plans or
blueprints on which you can mark locations for motion detectors, glass break
sensors, sirens, strobes, touchpads, etc.
In the event that a wire does get "lost" there is a tool that alarm and
phone installers have used for many years which will usually locate it
quickly. This two-part device is called a tone set. The first part is a
tone generator, which clips to the wires at one end (for example, the
control panel location). The other part is an inductive pickup (coil &
amplifier). Both parts typically use 9-V batteries. The tone pickup tool
is waved back and forth along the walls and ceiling where you are looking
for the hidden wire. It will give an audible sound as it gets within a few
feet of the wire. The signal goes through sheet rock and most other
non-metallic building materials. As you get closer to the wire, the sound
gets louder.
Sometimes you will use this tool to identify a wire in a large bundle of
cables. This happens when several wires come together and you know it's
there but not which wire it is. The technique is especially handy if the
wire markers come off or if you forgot to mark some of the wires during the
pre-wire. You place the tone generator at the component end of the wire.
Then touch the outer jacket of each unknown wire at the control panel or
wherever they terminate. The loudest tone will come from the correct wire.
Several wires may give a tone though, because they pick up the sound from
the correct wire through inductance. One at a time strip the few wires that
seem to be the correct one and short them out. The tone will stop when you
short the correct wire. A quicker way to do this is to cut an inch off each
wire while listening to the tone set. The correct wire will momentarily
short as your cutter goes through the insulation.
There are a lot of good tips and techniques available on wiring specific
makes of windows (i.e., Anderson, Pella, etc.) in a publication from
Sentrol. It's called "Application Notes" and has a list price of $6.95. It
can be had for free by security professionals, though. ADI, KingAlarm and
most other distributors will give dealers a copy of the booklet. Sentrol
also has some information on system design and techniques that may prove
useful at <http://www.sentrol.com/solutions/index.html> .
Blue Skies,
RLBass
.............................................
. Bass Home Electronics .
. 80 Bentwood Road, W Hartford, CT 06107 .
. http://www.BassHome.com .
. Voice (860) 561-2020 | Fax (860) 521-2143 .
.............................................
Keith M. Cory wrote in article ...
> Another newbie question.....
>
>If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
>alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
>Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
>
>Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech way
>that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
>
>Keith Cory
>
>
>
RABSparks
Interesting question. When you pre-wire any facility (house or otherwise),
you're running wires from a central location where the main panel will be
located to each door/window/area you intend to protect. So for instance if
you run a pair of wires to the front door, you'd drill the frame where you
intend to install the door switch (pushbutton goes on the frame where the
door will hit it when you close/open it, magnetic switch goes on the inside
frame where it's visible inside the room and close to the edge of the
door/frame).
If you're going to be using a glass break detector, then you'd prewire to
the wall opposite the windows or wherever the manufacturer tells you that
you need to place the unit. The same applies for smoke detectors and/or
motion sensors. Therefore you have to know what you'll be using to protect
each perimeter opening, each area inside, etc.
Once the wires have been run to these locations, they are brought out of
the wall or whatever. So you have both ends of the cable run: the one at
the main panel, and the one at the sensor end. Don't forget to run wires to
wherever you'll be locating your audible alarm as well as the keypads that
control the system. Finally prewire anything and everything. It's a lot
easier to have a pair of wires hanging inside a closet that you might use
to store valuables at a later date than to have to run wires to that
closet.
aa...@deltanet.com
In <340915...@sprintmail.com>, "J.M. Morgan" <bumper_...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>
>When our company pre-wires homes, we just go ahead and install the
>window or door switches. We make our own long drills, so are able to use
>a somewhat smaller hole than the 3/8 inch hole that most companies do.
>(We use 17/64 ths).
I'm curious--why would you want to make your own long drill bits
when you can buy ready-made 1/4" bits? That's only 1/64" smaller
than what you make yourself, and unless your welding is dead-on
perfect, your holes will end up bigger than 1/64" oversize, anyway.
>
>Wires for such things as motion detectors, fire detectors, keypads etc,
>should be left in the wall. Make a 6 to 10 turn service loop in the
>wire . . . it will make it easier to locate w/ a cable locator at a
>later time. It also helps to put the location on a diagram.
In response to the original poster, for certain devices it's good to use
"switch rings" during construction. These are actually the covers for
4" square electrical boxes, which come in "single gang" and "double
gang" versions. You nail these to the studs and install blank cover
plates after the walls are painted. Telephone jacks, cable TV outlets,
smoke detectors, and possibly keypads are good locations for switch
rings. Don't use them for contacts or motion detectors, though.
Final point: if you're willing to spend the money to prewire your
house for an alarm system, it's probably because you want an alarm
system! You might as well bite the bullet and get the entire system,
instead of thinking that maybe someday you'll finish the job.
Doug Winslow
Keith M. Cory wrote:
Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech
way
> that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
There might be some new `magic' way to find wires after the sheetrock is
up but you kinda hit the nail on the head with the small hole drilled
and wires pulled. I used to get `nailed' by the people putting in the
heating/ air conditioning vents. If you DIY make sure you don't run
wires between the studs where your vents are going to go. If you run the
wires right, none of them will be broken when you go to finish your
installation.
.
Doug
Fightcrime
There is a very helpful text file available on my website
regarding "Prewiring & Rough-Ins".
Khaled Jaber
> >alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
> >Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
>
> concern, they should have standards they follow as far as placement
> of devices and wires, they should also have some notes on the job that
> were taken when it was prewired.
>
> >that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
>
> Set such as the one from Progessive Electronics. The tone generator is
> attached to the end of the wires (at the panel location) and the amplifier
> is then used to pinpoint the end of the wire in the wall, however, if the wire
> has a short on it your chances of finding it are very slim as it will short out
> the tone generated by the toner.
>
> If you are interested in such a device I can sell you the set, contact me
> via private email for pricing.
>
> Affordable Home Security Systems
> --------------------------------------------------
> http://members.aol.com/fightcrime
How do you find 'pre-wired" wiring?
Date:
Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:22:00 +0300
From:
Khaled Jaber <secu...@cyberia.net.lb>
Organization:
Security Engineering
To:
kc...@netcom.com
Dear Keith,
the easiest method is to have a junction box with cover that matches
your decoration next to each detector you want to install. Run
conduilts, or wires in the walls (Depending on your country standards).
The main point is you have to know the best place of the alrm control
panel. All conduits and wires are to be run from that point to the
locationof the detectors.
To ditermine the number of wires required to be originated from the
contol panel, you have to take care of the following;
1 - Entry exit doors has to have seperate wiring; for entry exit zones.
2 - You may have each room set as a zone; with all detectors and
contacts connected on the same wire to the control panel; or
alternativly, if the floor space is small, you can place the whole floor
on one zone; thus you will require to have a cable going from the
control panel, to the location of the first detector, then from the
location of the first detector to the second, and so on till you reach
the last detector.
3 - Run a conduit from the location of the control panel to the entrance
(For the keypad).
4 - Run a wire from the location of the control panel to the location of
the MDF of your phone line (To connect telephone wire).
5 - Run a wire from the location of the control panel to the location of
the the external siren (if any to be used)
6 - Run a wire from the location of the control panel to the location of
the the Internal siren (if any to be used.
7 - Prepare a shop and as built drawing of your installation.
I hope that the above is helpfull.
Remeber, that the easiest way is to have junction boxes installed next
to the point of the location of the detector, or device; there are many
types of these boxes (special for alarm systems) available in the
market.
Regards
Khaled Jaber
_____________________________________
http://www.securityeng.com
Fightcrime
aa...@deltanet.com wrote:
Date: 31 Aug 1997 23:58:16 GMT
>In <340915...@sprintmail.com>, "J.M. Morgan"
><bumper_...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>>
>>When our company pre-wires homes, we just go ahead and install the
>>window or door switches. We make our own long drills, so are able to use
>>a somewhat smaller hole than the 3/8 inch hole that most companies do.
>>(We use 17/64 ths).
>
>I'm curious--why would you want to make your own long drill bits
>when you can buy ready-made 1/4" bits? That's only 1/64" smaller
>than what you make yourself, and unless your welding is dead-on
>perfect, your holes will end up bigger than 1/64" oversize, anyway.
Really, sounds like a lot of trouble to me, you can get 1/4 & 3/8 drills
from 18" to six feet already made w/flexible shafts and wire holes in
one or both ends!
missile
This topic is exactly what i has been looking for:
here is my story: my house is also under construction and my builder do
pre-wired for free. I contacted the alarm company which did the wiring to
see if they can install a system for me since they know where each wire
goes better than me. I asked them what kind of systems they are using they
told me they are using caddx then i asked them about the napco they said
that they do not use napco since they are to complicate to program? so i
decided to install the system myself which i started with an order of
Gemini P3200 system from Mr. Bass store. ( most of you should aware that i
was the one who posted an article about Mr. Bass's Internet store
complainning about the order. Mr. Bass had called me and explained that he
messed up my order with another one and he corrected it. I did receive the
order as promised and i was very pleased with the way he handle the
problem). any way, i have been trying to get the wiring information from
this company but it seem to me that i am out of luck. so this thread
helped to get some ideas what i can do if i have to figure out the wiring
myself. by the way, can any body tell me where i can get the device that
Mr. Bass had described?
Thanks
Timothy
>From: "Robert L. Bass" <alar...@home.net>
>Date: 1997/08/31
>Message-Id: <5uc4ir$qcm$1...@ha2.rdc1.ct.home.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.security.alarms
>There are several things you can and should do during pre-wiring to make
it
>> Another newbie question.....
>>
>>If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
>>alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
>>Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
>>
>>Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech
way
>>that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires
pulled?
>>
>>Keith Cory
>>
>>
>>
Robert L Bass
Doug Winslow wrote:
>
> Keith M. Cory wrote:
> Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech
> way
> > that the wires can be located, a small hole drilled, and the wires pulled?
>
> up but you kinda hit the nail on the head with the small hole drilled
> and wires pulled. I used to get `nailed' by the people putting in the
> heating/ air conditioning vents. If you DIY make sure you don't run
> wires between the studs where your vents are going to go. If you run the
> wires right, none of them will be broken when you go to finish your
> installation.
> .
> Doug
Good point, Doug. The easiest way to avoid getting your wires cut is to
put them in after the electrical, plumbing and HVAC people are finished
with their rough-in. Most of the time (not always) the electrician is
the last guy to rough in. Just ask the builder to keep you informed
about the progress of the other craftsmen and then hop in before the
insulation goes in. You may need to talk the builder into giving you a
day of leeway, since they usually try to do the insulation the second
the electrician is done.
They will probably appreciate your efforts to stay out of the way while
they're doing their thing, anyway.
Steve
About Pre-wiring.
Conduits, junction boxes and so on is really not the way I would go
about pre-wiring a new home. I can see where conduits and junction
boxes etc., are used in Commecial premises but not in New Homes.
The way I pre-wire newer homes is to install devices on all the doors
and windows and run my wires to a central location in the basement or
home where the panel box will be placed. Wires for keypads, sounders,
motions, glassbreaks and so on is stapled to the 2x4 studs with a good
length of wire hanging out of the studded area. If the Drywallers,
homeowners, or builder is around I ussually take them around letting
them know that they cannot drywall over the wires, just leave the
wires sticking out of the drywall. 99% of the time the drywallers
most always leave the wires out of the drywall. Occassionally there
have been times when wires are buried in the studded wall. If thats
the case, I ussually run new wires again. Easier then trying to
locate the wire with electronic devices. Just run new wires, not all
that difficult to do. BUT.... HA.... if you got wire for a motion
centered over a pictured window on the first floor level and a second
floor above, then them little electronic devices comes in real handy
when trying to locate the wire for that motion. :)
But really 99% of the time the drywallers, homeowners and builders
will listen when you tell them that the wire should not be covered.
Or mark the studs with a RED marker letting the sheet rock installers
know not to sheet rock over. Sheet Rock is Drywall to us northeners.
:)
Hope this helps.
Steve
ADT Security Systems, Inc.
High Volume Resi-Alarm Installer (Michigan, USA)
Fightcrime
RLBass wrote:
>Good point, Doug. The easiest way to avoid getting your wires cut is to
>put them in after the electrical, plumbing and HVAC people are finished
>with their rough-in.
Most definetely! I have had many wires cut by HVAC people that had not
run all their ducts yet! Most of the time they were in a unfinishe basement
and easily repaired. You also have to watch the attic insulators that put in
the cardboard dividers in the attic along the overhang of the house to keep
the insulation out of the overhand, I've had a few of them wack my door
wires with their razor knife when they were trimming in the cardboard
divider above the door.
>Just ask the builder to keep you informed about the progress of the
>other craftsmen and then hop in before the insulation goes in.
>You may need to talk the builder into giving you a day of leeway,
>since they usually try to do the insulation the second the electrician
>is done.
A day to yourself is indeed great, sure beats pulling insulation back out
that was just installed! Many builders tend to forget about us though so
be sure to check up on the progress of the house of you may be to late!
Doug Winslow
Robert L Bass wrote:
>
> Doug Winslow wrote:
> >
> > Keith M. Cory wrote:
> > Is taking pictures of the construction enough, or is their some hi-tech
> > wires right, none of them will be broken when you go to finish your
> > installation.
> > .
> > Doug
>
> They will probably appreciate your efforts to stay out of the way while
> they're doing their thing, anyway.
From what I remember of the prewires I did, the electricians were doing
their thing while the "vent people" were doing their thing and I was
doing mine. The safest way to do would be to be there two days before
the sheetrockers started doing their thing (depending on the size of the
job of course).
.
Doug
Doug Winslow
Fightcrime wrote:
(etc.)
> A day to yourself is indeed great, sure beats pulling insulation back out
> that was just installed! Many builders tend to forget about us though so
> be sure to check up on the progress of the house of you may be to late!
I had no problem pulling back insulation to insert my wires knowing they
would all be good (as opposed to re-running/repairing them when I tried
to make the protection work. :-)
. Doug
Desmond P. O'Donoghue
Keith M. Cory <kc...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<kcoryEF...@netcom.com>...
> Another newbie question.....
>
> If I decide to just get my under construction home pre-wired only for an
> alarm system, how does an installer come back and find the wires?
> Especially if I don't want him/her to poke large holes in my new walls!
>
Well you could do what I did. I recently moved into a newly constucted
house. It came prewired for an alarm system and we used the guys who
installed the wiring to also do the alarm itself. However you don't need
the original guy to do it - as my neighbours have shown - because all the
wiring is visible at the "to-be-protected" location eg the window has its
own set of wires and they all end up in the "hot-press" ready and waiting
for connection. The control panel wires are also mounted hanging out of the
hall plaster..
Des.
besystems
Looks like this one got a bit long-winded. :) it's about to get
longer...
My 2 cents; Your installation company, (you ARE using professional
installers, aren't you?) will take care of the worries about finding the
wiring.
If, perchance, you are doing the work yourself, many of the suggestions
posted here will help. The suggestion about rough-in boxes and wallplates
was a little off, I agree, BUT, if you carefully locate these boxes, you can
install keypads, motion detectors, and smoke detectors and other sensors
directly onto the backboxes at trim-out time, covering them with the
devices. This also makes for easier servicing later on. I wouldn't use
conduit, just the plastic backboxes.
Obviously, corner mounting a motion sensor is out of the question with
this method, but another location on a flat wall can usually be found. Run
all of your wiring to a central location in an unfinished area of the home
that will be fairly secure. Mark each wire as you "home run" it with its
device location.
I must pose a question for you to ponder here- Are you aware of placement
protocol for your detection devices? For instance, you should know not to
place a smoke detector near a bathroom (steam vapor will cause falsing &/or
corrosion), or place it near a forced or return air vent, attic fan, etc.
And of course, use heat detectors (Rate-of-Rise or Fixed Temperature
depending upon location) instaed of smoke detectors in areas of high dust or
soot, such as garage, attic, kitchen, or in a room with a fireplace.
You should not place a standard PIR motion detector facing an outside window
or uninsulated wall, or place it where it "sees" or is near a forced air
vent, ceiling fan, or other temperature change/movement source. Even window
curtains and shears moved by an air vent can be a problem. Large plants can
also move by forced air........you get the picture.
Do you have double-hung windows? If so, are you planning to "contact" both
upper and lower sashes? You should. Also, door contacts should be fitted
according to the type of door and direction from which you can run your
wire. For instance, a 3/4" roller button switch should be placed in the jamb
side of the door frame. Or, if you are using a magnetic contact, it must be
in the "opening" side of the door frame. If magnetic is used and the door or
frame is steel, use a contact designed for this. It will have a built-in
stand off to keep the magnet from losing its draw on steel that is too
close.
There are many other considerations that a professional installer should
consider as well, but if carefully planned your system will be trouble free
and reliable for many years.
Best of Luck,
Scott A Blair
President
Blair Electronic Systems Inc.
Wildwood, MO 63040-1206
314-458-8588
http://home.earthlink.net/~besystems/
Doug Winslow wrote in article <340B78FA...@min.net>...