Alarm Systems on the Sabboth
Marc
system during the Sabboth. Does anyone know? Im familiair with the sabboth,
and the jewish customers, but never thought about the alarm system. Can they
flip a toggel switch? or should i just tell them bypass what they will open?
Thanks
Alex H
>From: "Marc" sch...@hotmail.com
>Date: 03/09/2003 19:16 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bj5b6f$f2ugh$1...@ID-199979.news.uni-berlin.de>
No switch can be operated, the best method would probably be to utilise a time
switch which
would protect the system between the hours they are asleep on a night setting.
During the day possibly viper sensors could be in operation on the windows and
doors. But they would have to be aware they couldn't slam the doors!
Hope this helps!
--
Alex Harris
Remove NEWS to reply
Robert L. Bass
>> their alarm system during the Sabboth. Does anyone know? Im
>> familiair with the sabboth, and the jewish customers, but never
>> thought about the alarm system. Can they flip a toggel switch?
>> or should i just tell them bypass what they will open?
>
> utilise a time switch which would protect the system between the
> hours they are asleep on a night setting.
Perhaps I can help. For many years my business was the darling of the
Orthodox Jewish community in and around West Hartford, CT. I protected a
number of shuls and Orthodox homes. I also had numerous Conservative and
Reformed Jews. The differences are significant so you might want to inquire
if your clients are shomar shabbos. If they say yes, the requirements can
be pretty strict. Here's how I do it:
Program all motion and glass break detectors for "auto bypass". Use timed
relays and/or scheduled system commands to first disarm the system and then
kill power to the motion and glass break detectors before sunset on Friday
and on each of the major yam tov (holidays).
Set the panel on a timer so that it will arm automatically a few minutes
before bedtime (whenever that is) on Friday night. On Saturday morning the
panel should remain armed but a timed relay should shunt the "shabbos door"
sensor so the family can leave for shul. You could set the relay to
release, thereby arming the door after the family is out but timing can be
difficult, leading to a false alarm at a time when no one in the family is
allowed to use the keypad to turn it off. For that reason it's better to
just leave the shabbos door shunted until the system is disarmed after
sunset on Saturday.
Most Orthodox Jews I know don't worry about the actual sunset. Instead they
have designated times after which the sun is officially considered to have
set. This makes programming the timers a lot easier since they don't need
to change every day.
There is a good deal more to it than just the above. I've written about
this issue in the past. You can find the whole procedure with a Google
search if you like.
Regards,
Robert
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Frank Olson
transit?? Are they allowed to put money in the ticket dispenser? Wouldn't
that be considered operating a mechanical device?? I know I couldn't go a
day without pushing a button somewhere (even if it's just to turn on the
coffee maker - although I suppose I could train my cat to do it)... Which
brings me to another question... What if the Jewish guy's an alarm
technician and get's a trouble call?? How does he get to the job site??
Does he even go??
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Jim Gaynor
a Rabbi than an alarm guy. On the other hand maybe another good application
for under carpet pressure mats ( step here to arm, step there to silence
etc.)
"Marc" <sch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Robert L. Bass
to
> a Rabbi than an alarm guy. On the other hand maybe another good
application
> for under carpet pressure mats ( step here to arm, step there to silence
> etc.)
That won't work. You can't do *anything* which causes an electrical device
to change state. For example, Orthodox Jews unscrew the light bulb in the
refrigerator so that they don't turn on a light when they reach for a snack.
They don't drive to shul during Shabbos or yom tov. They can use a key to
lock the door but they cannot use a key to operate an alarm.
There are ways to accomodate the intricate religious rules by which these
very devout people live. I've done this successfully first using Napco's
MA-3000 and now their Gemini series security systems. The procedures are
different from the standard, Shake'n'Bake approach to security but they are
not difficult to master. In fact, I even have some Orthodox DIY'rs who have
set their alarms up to be "kosher."
Frank Olson
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Marc
"Frank Olson" <(remove the "dot") ho...@shawdot.ca> wrote in message
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Marc
that without having to change/install new sensors?
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:04mdnZ_A4rt...@giganews.com...
Frank Olson
instance. You're going to have to go with an Ademco Vista 50/128 or one of
the new Napco panels (as Robert has suggested). He also appears to have the
experience to program the system to work within the dictates of your
customer's religious issues. I'd suggest you contact him directly and if he
doesn't respond or answer, try starting a new thread addressed to him in the
group...
"Marc" <sch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Robert L. Bass
>> Take transit?? Are they allowed to put money in the ticket
>> dispenser?
They walk.
>> What if the Jewish guy's an alarm technician and get's (sic) a
>> trouble call?? How does he get to the job site??
If he's Orthodox he doesn't accept assignments that include work during
Shabbos or certain yom tov days.
> I am jewish , doesnt mean i follow the religion.
That is a concept which the IB can't seem to grasp. It seems that being a
non-religious Jew or even a Messianic Jew is as incomprehensible to them as
the tri-une deity is to a Buddhist.
Robert L. Bass
> that without having to change/install new sensors?
Yes, but it's not simple and you'll need some 365-day timers. It would
actually be cheaper to switch and e-Bay the existing alarm system. Because
of the Jewish calendar, holidays change every year the way Easter (Pesach)
does. You have to visit the site to reprogram the timers periodically as
sunset time changes and once more to reprogram all the holidays annually.
With the Napco system you write the schedules, plan the changes in advance
and use PC Preset to automatically download all of your Orthodox accounts
every few weeks. I got this going like clockwork after a while.
BTW, it's not the sensors that need changing. It's the controls. Of
course, if it's wireless you're screwed. There's no way to make a wireless
alarm system shomar shabbos. This has nothjing to do with RFI, by the way.
RFI is always present but it has zero effect on Orthodox because,
unbeknownst to the goyim, all yarmalkes are lined with Cooper's aluminum
foil. :^)
Allan Waghalter
for the Lubavich Center and most of the Rabbi's. What they want over the
Sabbath and other holidays is just to turn the system off. Since this
eliminates their fire alarm, it can't be done this easily.
I install a Sabbath switch which operates a series of relays. These relays
shunt across the motion detectors and glass breaks as well as remove power
from them. The panel is then set to bypass all doors... or I use more
relays to shunt the doors. When they press the switch, a bright red light
comes on advising them the switch is in use. The burglar system is fully
disabled, but the fire alarms are active.
I had a false alarm from a smoke detector in the Lubavich Center over the
high holidays one year. They ignored the alarm and went right on with their
service. It shut off after 10 minutes. And, no, they won't authorize a
Jewish technician to work on the Sabbath. If you have a non-Jewish tech, he
can make repairs and work.
Just bypassing the zones won't work on a Napco unless you also arm the
panel. If you bypass a zone and don't arm it, the bypass returns to normal
after appx 2 minutes.
Regards,
Allan Waghalter
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Robert L. Bass
security
> for the Lubavich Center and most of the Rabbi's. What they want over the
> Sabbath and other holidays is just to turn the system off. Since this
> eliminates their fire alarm, it can't be done this easily.
>
> I install a Sabbath switch which operates a series of relays. These
relays
> shunt across the motion detectors and glass breaks as well as remove power
> from them. The panel is then set to bypass all doors... or I use more
> relays to shunt the doors. When they press the switch, a bright red light
> comes on advising them the switch is in use. The burglar system is fully
> disabled, but the fire alarms are active.
That will work OK, Allan. The disadvantage is it offers no burglary
protection at all during Pesach when the system is essentially powered down
for days on end. If you would like to give a bit more, talk to me next time
you're bidding one of these. The added hardware costs are minimal (an
RB-3008 relay board). The wiring may sound complex but really it's not.
Programming takes a bit of understanding of Napco but that's nothing you
couldn't pick up.
I can lay it all out for you if you want. If you ask I'm sure you'll get a
very positive response. Once it became known that I had developed such a
system I had virtually no competition within the Orthodox community. You
can make a little more money but, more important, you can give better
protection to a part of the community that has been historically
underserved.
> I had a false alarm from a smoke detector in the Lubavich Center over the
> high holidays one year. They ignored the alarm and went right on with
their
> service. It shut off after 10 minutes. And, no, they won't authorize a
> Jewish technician to work on the Sabbath. If you have a non-Jewish tech,
he
> can make repairs and work.
Correct. As a general rule, if you, a goy, don't ask permission but simply
show up for work on Shabbos, the Jewish client is not breaking a rule by
allowing you in. However, if you ask in advance, "Do you mind if I come
Saturday morning," they are obliged to say no. If you're working for
Lubavitchers you are already aware that there are very fine lines between
what is and what is not acceptable. Those lines may seem silly to non-Jews
but each rule is based on traditions that have been honored for thousands of
years. They're not about to allow a little thing like the 21st century to
get in the way of those traditions. :^)
> Just bypassing the zones won't work on a Napco unless you also arm the
> panel. If you bypass a zone and don't arm it, the bypass returns to
normal
> after appx 2 minutes.
Actually, I power down the motions and glass breaks and then force arm the
system. This kills the LEDs and relays and eliminates the scrolling zone
fault display. Because I always prescribe full perimeter detection, the
system still offers more protection than most ordinary systems even during
Shabbos.
The Shabbos door is only bypassed during the times when the family leaves
for shul. This is a weak spot but by using a heavy deadbolt with a 1"
minimum throw that door becomes a less attraxctive target for the thief than
say the rear door to the kitchen.
Frank Olson
sort of keyholder response. Would you offer guard service and would they be
allowed to turn off the system (if they're non-Jewish)? If the family's
home and the alarm goes off, how do they shut it off (or don't they)? I'm
curious as to what text they would refer to regarding the non-operation of
electrical devices (considering the tradition is "thousands" of years old
and electricity "wasn't around" until Ben Franklin's kite)...
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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Petem
> There is already a DSC PC5010 v2.0 system installed. Any suggestions with
> that without having to change/install new sensors?
>
the pc 5010 doesn't have the everything needed for the job
but if you take a paradox digiplex and use paradox bus series of pir
detector there are option you can set for Shabbat
the alarm will by itself turn all light on it off and wont make sound for
any reason...
Petem
it should have been:
the pc 5010 doesn't have everything needed for the job
but if you take a paradox digiplex and use paradox bus series pir
detector there are option you can set for Shabbat
the alarm will by itself turn all light off and wont make a sound for
any reason...
"Petem" <pe...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:IkE5b.2209$rS4....@weber.videotron.net...
Robert L. Bass
> but if you take a paradox digiplex and use paradox bus series pir
> detector there are option you can set for Shabbat
> the alarm will by itself turn all light off and wont make a sound for
> any reason...
That is true. However, even with the LED shut off, if the Orthodox client
knows that a relay is switching -- even a quiet relay -- they are not
supposed to accept it. Note that not all Orthodox are equally strict in
their observance. This varies from person to person just as religiosity
varies among other faiths. If you're doing a shul you need to try to make
your system strictly compliant. Otherwise it will eventually come back to
haunt you when someone technically savvy and strictly observant notices.
Since it is possible to be completely compliant without significantly adding
to your costs, my advice would be to go with the most conservative (not to
be confused with "Conservative":)) approach. That said, the Paradox
Digiplex series are sophisticated panels. I haven't tried it yet but you
could probably do exactly what I do with Napco using a Digiplex.
I have detailed info on Paradox which I also carry in my online store. (URL
below)
fuddle...@gmail.com
I am currently trying to design an alarm system for a Jewish synagog and community center. After talking to the rabbi it seems he is ok with using a key to turn off the siren sbould it trip -but not a touchpad itself.
He wants doors that can be locked down during an emergency but he cannot be required to use a touchpad or even a prox fob to open the door. He is OK, however, with using a mechanical door lock to unlock a door to gain entry as well as a keyswitch to silence a siren during a Sabbath trigger.
He explained that electricity is considered fire and there are rules on using fire on the Sabbath over a key. He's pretty savey with systems, etc so surely he knows that a keyswitch still initiates and electrical response which in turn will silence a siren.
Oddly, He says he cannot even use the phone to communicate a false alarm situation to avoid a false dispatch should the alarm trigger during the Sabbath or other non-working holy day. It would seem that a non-jew would need to intervene should this occur.
So, I need some input into designing burg alarm, fire, access control, and cameras for this building.
doug
<fuddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Jim Davis
> Robert Bass passed away several years ago.
>
>