Why do alarms strobes keep flashing?
fran...@my-dejanews.com
This shows that you are not at home and potentially that your house is open.
The burgurlar can come back later for more. What if you were away on holiday
or for the weekend? It can't be so the police can find your house, because
they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
address. Can I turn the flashing off when the siren stops? -- Frank Marshall
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Stephen Longterm
says...
Which is stopped after 1/2 an hour by law.
Robert L Bass
>
> Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
The siren is usually set to stop after a few minutes to avoid annoying the
neighbors too much. The strobe continues so the homeowner will realize
something is wrong before entering the premises if he should return shortly
after the siren stops.
> Can I turn the flashing off when the siren stops? -- Frank Marshall
Yes. The strobe can be set to stop with the siren or, on many newer
systems, to stop after some predetermined time. On a Napco Gemini system,
you could program the BURG relay to fire the siren for about 5 minutes (or
whatever) and another relay to fire the strobe for maybe 30 minutes.
Another possibility is to have the siren and strobe stop after 5 minutes or
so and then have a small LED on a plate blink until the system is reset. The
plate could be mounted under the eaves, behind a garage window or wherever
it would be visible as you come in the driveway.
If your system is older or has only one limited switched output, you can add
a 12 volt timer to control the strobe separately from the siren.
Blue Skies,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Robert L Bass
Bass Home Electronics
http://www.BassHome.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-521-2143 fax
=====================>
nightjar
fran...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6p6vqg$66n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
>they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
>address.
Very rarely they might. More often they get a call saying there is an
alarm going off somewhere nearby. Sound carries but can be very difficult
to pinpoint as to direction. Of course, if you have a monitored alarm
system, the Police do respond, usually before the siren stops.
Nightjar
Active Digital Security
Longterm) wrote:
>They flash in case there is not anyone around when the siren sounds,
>Which is stopped after 1/2 an hour by law.
You'll find that that's twernty minutes by law in the UK. You're wide
open to a £2000 fine for breach of Noise Pollution controls under the
Environmental health Act if your does sound for more than twenty
minutes. Internal sirens or sounders are not subject to the same
restriction.
Commercial premises fitted with remote signalling may be subject to a
ten minute delay on audible warning depending on insurer requirements
(most police services require it).
The strobe is set to continue for several reasons:
1) There is no restriction on the strobe flashing, as there is with
the external audible device.
2) It draws additional attention and provides a pinpoint to locate the
alarming property.
3) It provides an indication to the alarm holder that there has been
an activation upon their return to the property.
Rgds,
Bill Boyd
Active Security Systems
"What Could you be Missing?"
Professional Electronic Security Installation and Service
Visit www.alarms.demon.co.uk today.....
Active Digital Security
>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
>This shows that you are not at home and potentially that your house is open.
>The burgurlar can come back later for more. What if you were away on holiday
>or for the weekend? It can't be so the police can find your house, because
>they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
>address. Can I turn the flashing off when the siren stops? -- Frank Marshall
>
I missed the last part of your question.
Depending on the control panel you have, there's an option in the
programming to have the strobe output follow the bell output, or to
operate coninuously on activation until reset.
The no-programming way would be to wire the strobe trigger to the bell
trigger terminal, assuming your bell trigger is programmed to drop
after twenty minutes....
KAREN8927
>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing >the strobe when the siren stops?
Along with the other stated reasons, here is one that most folks are not aware
of.
By leaving the stobe lights flashing you are providing needed visual cues for
hearing impaired people (deaf)
As a matter of fact all new Fire Alarm instalations are required to keep the
strobes flashing until the panel is reset.
Bye
Karen
See ya in the funny papers,
Karen
"Lately it occurs to me what a long...... strange trip its been".
Joe Tozer
<secu...@alarms.de_spam_on.co.uk> writes
>On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:00:20 +0100, Notus...@idemon.com (Stephen
>Longterm) wrote:
>
>>They flash in case there is not anyone around when the siren sounds,
>>Which is stopped after 1/2 an hour by law.
>
>You'll find that that's twernty minutes by law in the UK. You're wide
>open to a £2000 fine for breach of Noise Pollution controls under the
>Environmental health Act if your does sound for more than twenty
>minutes.
Is there any similar figure for how frequently it is (un)acceptable for
them to go off? It's seriously annoying when the same alarm goes off a
number of times in one night or is a regular periodic offender.
Are there similar 'restrictions' for car alarms?
BTW has any else noticed that hot weather increases the frequency of
this nuisance (no it doesn't correlate with my windows being open).
--
Joe Tozer http://www.tozer.demon.co.uk
"Numbers will account for a great
deal of the sufferings of humanity" . . . . . Myles na Gopaleen
Active Digital Security
<j...@spamalarm.tozer.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Is there any similar figure for how frequently it is (un)acceptable for
>them to go off? It's seriously annoying when the same alarm goes off a
>number of times in one night or is a regular periodic offender.
>Are there similar 'restrictions' for car alarms?
I have a strong feeling that the EPA can be brought to bear on
persistent offenders too. Get in touch with either the local
council's Environmental officer, or your local police "crime
prevention officer" - may be a community officer now. They will note
the details, and can tell you whether or not it can be proceeded i
nthis way. Car alarms are also subject to the restrictions of the EPA
- I believe that they are only allowed to sound for up to two minutes
per activation, although I don't fit those, and try hard NOT to get
involved in them :-)
>BTW has any else noticed that hot weather increases the frequency of
>this nuisance (no it doesn't correlate with my windows being open).
Changes in weather will almost always affect badly fitted alarm
systems - if they are the same systems as those noted above, I'm
probably not surprised. A good installer should always be able to
guesstimate what the room he's protecting would be like at it's
hottest and coldest, and offer protection accordingly.
Best guess from the info given is that one or more detectors are being
affected by looking directly at a "hot" spot, or are in direct
sunlight.
dentist
Most strobes are tied to "Alarm memory"...you know that little edge telling
the homeowner that someone may have been in their home or may still be. The
average burglar does'nt know that it means the house is un-occupied and
remember the system is still armed.
Jeff Hoffman
ala...@yahoo.com
fran...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6p6vqg$66n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
>This shows that you are not at home and potentially that your house is
open.
>The burgurlar can come back later for more. What if you were away on
holiday
>or for the weekend? It can't be so the police can find your house, because
>they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
>address. Can I turn the flashing off when the siren stops? -- Frank
Marshall
>
fran...@my-dejanews.com
"dentist" <alar...@geocities.com> wrote:
> average burglar does'nt know that it means the house is un-occupied and
Surely they have worked that out. Another question - can I put a bigger
battery into the alarm? The 2.8Ah battery will run the thing for a few hours
but can I put on a car battery and run it for days?
Frank
Robert L Bass
>
> Another question - can I put a bigger battery into the alarm?
> The 2.8Ah battery will run the thing for a few hours but can I
> put on a car battery and run it for days?
Generally speaking, no. The alarm system's power supply is not designed to
recharge a large battery. After the battery discharges, the system may blow
a fuse or the transformer may fail if it tries to charge a large cell like a
car battery.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
Paul Steele
false alarms and response times for a 12 month period w.e.f. 20/4/98 I
cant speak for the other police forces in the UK.
The point on noise pollution is true we are limited to 20 minutes only
before the environmental people are on yer back!
0 - 2 False alarms - Immediate response
3 - 7 Attendance will be delayed
7 + Response will be withdrawn for a minimum of 3 months
If the system has been restored to police response and continues to false
alarm in the same 12 month period then the following applies
0 - 2 false alarms - Immediate response
3 - 4 Response will be delayed
4 + response will be withdrawn for a minimum of 3 months
The British Security Industry Association (BISA) has registered it's
opposition to this revised change, but the Met are not moved.
The moral of the story is "Get a reputable installer" or phone BISA and ask
for a recommendation.
Active Digital Security <secu...@alarms.de_spam_on.co.uk> wrote in article
<35bb033d...@news.demon.co.uk>...
Jeff Peacock
have to pay a $200.00 reinstatement fee for police attendance to resume
Jeff
Hugh Davies wrote:
> In article <01bdbca2$dbf8a030$3a7599c3@trabant>, "Paul Steele" <p.s...@orbis.co.uk> writes:
>
> >The British Security Industry Association (BISA) has registered it's
> >opposition to this revised change, but the Met are not moved.
>
> Figures. I can quite understand why they might want to charge for
> false alarms, but failure to respond is reprehensible.
>
> And can you sack your police supplier and get another? Nope.
>
> --
> "The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
> The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html
> [Remove "_nospam" for email address]
Andy
Here in London (UK) the Police will responsd to two false intruder
activations on a level 1 (immediate response). After tow false alarms
the response level goes to Level 2 - will attend, when we can be
bothered sort of thing.
Once the system is free of false calls for 3 months level 1 response is
automatically re-instated.
after 7 fas in a year police response is withdrawn for 3 months
--
Andy Gilmore
Managing Director
AAI Security Systems.
Tel. +44 (0)181 207 0900 Fax. +44 (0) 181 207 5400
Certificated by NACOSS to ISO 9002 for the Installation & Maintenance of
Intruder Alarms
Members of the BSIA
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
>Here in London (UK) the Police will responsd to two false intruder
>activations on a level 1 (immediate response). After tow false alarms
>the response level goes to Level 2 - will attend, when we can be
>bothered sort of thing.
>
>Once the system is free of false calls for 3 months level 1 response is
>automatically re-instated.
>
>after 7 fas in a year police response is withdrawn for 3 months
What sort of response times do "Level 1" and "Level 2" translate
to, in London?
Chris French
>false alarms and response times for a 12 month period w.e.f. 20/4/98 I
>cant speak for the other police forces in the UK.
>
>
>The British Security Industry Association (BISA) has registered it's
>opposition to this revised change, but the Met are not moved.
>
>for a recommendation.
>
No the moral may be to properly install a decent alarm system.
Plenty of us DIYers can do that.
--
Chris French and Helen Johnson
Leeds
Email address valid for at least two weeks from posting
Sha...@scooby.doo
<nigh...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
>
>fran...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><6p6vqg$66n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
>>.....It can't be so the police can find your house, because
>>they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
>>address.
>
>Very rarely they might. More often they get a call saying there is an
>alarm going off somewhere nearby. Sound carries but can be very difficult
>to pinpoint as to direction. Of course, if you have a monitored alarm
>system, the Police do respond, usually before the siren stops.
>
The police respond before the siren stops? How long do you program
your sirens to sound? And just where is this place that the police
still respond to audible alarms? Sounds like the elusive Utopia where
alarm systems aren't needed because the police have eliminated crime.
>Nightjar
>
>
Robert L Bass
>
> What sort of response times do "Level 1" and "Level 2" translate
> to, in London?
Level 1 - Two bobbies on two bicycles.
Level 2 - Two bobbies riding a tandem bicycle.
Level 3 - One bobby, no bicycle.
Level 4 - Monica Lewinsky.
Robert L Bass
>
> nightjar wrote:
>>
>> Very rarely they might. More often they get a call saying there is an
>> alarm going off somewhere nearby. Sound carries but can be very difficult
>> to pinpoint as to direction. Of course, if you have a monitored alarm
>> system, the Police do respond, usually before the siren stops.
>
> The police respond before the siren stops? How long do you program
> your sirens to sound? And just where is this place that the police
> still respond to audible alarms? Sounds like the elusive Utopia where
> alarm systems aren't needed because the police have eliminated crime.
We had the police, fire and paramedics respond to our client's new system in
less than 5 minutes when a neighbor called in to report hearing the alarm.
The system has a voice siren driver. The clients (husband and wife) are
blind. When we finished the install the client wanted to listen to the fire
siren as he walked the length of the property.
The neighbor heard the siren's loud warning: "FIRE! FIRE! LEAVE
IMMEDIATELY!" She called 911 and said "Help, my neighbors are blind. Their
alarm is ringing and it's screaming 'FIRE!'" The police dispatcher *thought
she had said ".... alarm is ringing and *they* are screaming, 'FIRE!'" She
rolled two fire companies, two ambulances, a paramedic vehicle and a slew of
police cars. A TV news crew heard the radio message that a blind couple was
trapped in a fire. The whole street was filled with emergency vehicles,
reporters, neighbors and every kid for 6 blocks.
The client was extremely impressed. The cops and firemen were cool about it
but I got a few nasty looks. The neighbor and I both wanted to be someplace
else. :)
Regards,
Andy
>
> In <35C230...@Compuserve.com>, Andy <AAI_A...@Compuserve.com> writes:
>
> >Here in London (UK) the Police will responsd to two false intruder
> >activations on a level 1 (immediate response). After tow false alarms
> >the response level goes to Level 2 - will attend, when we can be
> >bothered sort of thing.
> >
> >Once the system is free of false calls for 3 months level 1 response is
> >automatically re-instated.
> >
> >after 7 fas in a year police response is withdrawn for 3 months
>
> to, in London?
The London Metropolitan Police aim to attend level 1 calls within 12
minutes - level 2 - anyones guess
Andy
>
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:10:52 +0100, "nightjar"
> <nigh...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >fran...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> ><6p6vqg$66n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >>Why are alarms designed to keep flashing the strobe when the siren stops?
> >>.....It can't be so the police can find your house, because
> >>they don't respond anyway and if they did they would have been given the
> >>address.
> >
> >alarm going off somewhere nearby. Sound carries but can be very difficult
> >to pinpoint as to direction. Of course, if you have a monitored alarm
> >system, the Police do respond, usually before the siren stops.
> >
> The police respond before the siren stops? How long do you program
> your sirens to sound? And just where is this place that the police
> still respond to audible alarms? Sounds like the elusive Utopia where
> alarm systems aren't needed because the police have eliminated crime.
>
> >
> >
It should be remembered that a number of UInsurance company's, including
Sun Alliance insist that that strobe ceases when the sounder stops. A
strobe operating gives an Intruder indication that the alarm has
activated, that keyholders have not attened and that the system requires
resetting.
Whilsty most systems auto rearm we are prohibited from allowing our
systems to send a second intruder signal in the same set period from a
system.
Active Digital Security
>Here is a directive from the Metropolitan Police if this is of help with
>false alarms and response times for a 12 month period w.e.f. 20/4/98 I
>cant speak for the other police forces in the UK.
Other forces are currently in line with the "ACPO" policy, as related
to their area, which is basically as below, but has 0-4 false alarms
as the level one response - level two kicks in at 5-8 (for Kent and
Sussex anyway) and 3 months off thereafter, etc.
>The point on noise pollution is true we are limited to 20 minutes only
>before the environmental people are on yer back!
>
>0 - 2 False alarms - Immediate response
>3 - 7 Attendance will be delayed
>7 + Response will be withdrawn for a minimum of 3 months
>
>If the system has been restored to police response and continues to false
>alarm in the same 12 month period then the following applies
>
>0 - 2 false alarms - Immediate response
>3 - 4 Response will be delayed
>4 + response will be withdrawn for a minimum of 3 months
>
>The British Security Industry Association (BISA) has registered it's
>opposition to this revised change, but the Met are not moved.
Nor will they be - they simply haven't the resources to deal with
alarms - so the pressure is being put on the industry wholesale to
reduce the impact of false alarm response - you can bet your bottom
dollar that the remainder of the UK forces will follow the Met pretty
quick, and probably in advance of the next policy changes at ACPO
level.
>The moral of the story is "Get a reputable installer" or phone BISA and ask
>for a recommendation.
Agreed, but you should be aware that the BSIA represent less than one
percent of the industry - NACOSS, SSAIB, or AISC are better bets for
alarm systems....as is Active Security Systems, obviously :-)
Active Digital Security
(Hugh Davies) wrote:
>In article <01bdbca2$dbf8a030$3a7599c3@trabant>, "Paul Steele" <p.s...@orbis.co.uk> writes:
>
>>The British Security Industry Association (BISA) has registered it's
>>opposition to this revised change, but the Met are not moved.
>
>Figures. I can quite understand why they might want to charge for
>false alarms, but failure to respond is reprehensible.
>
>And can you sack your police supplier and get another? Nope.
>
This is true, but in fairness to the Met and other forces, how would
you feel if you got knifed, or killed because the only available
police officer to respond was dealing with your neighbour's false
alarm???
On balance, even as an alarm professional, I have to side with the Met
that the pressure should be on the industry to improve the alarms, and
on the industry to improve the customer training that helps reduce
false alarms....
Active Digital Security
<news...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>The moral of the story is "Get a reputable installer" or phone BISA and ask
>>for a recommendation.
>>
>
>No the moral may be to properly install a decent alarm system.
Agreed - see my other post in this vein.
>
>Plenty of us DIYers can do that.
True too, but can't get the monitoring which requires approval, and
more besides... :-(
Active Digital Security
>
>What sort of response times do "Level 1" and "Level 2" translate
>to, in London?
In the Metropolitan area (Greater London) the aim is Level one, twelve
minutes, Level Two within thirty minutes.
Nationally, the aim is Level One, within fifteen minutes, Level two
within Forty minutes.
Active Digital Security
<alar...@BassHome.com> wrote:
>AA-2 asked:
>>
>> What sort of response times do "Level 1" and "Level 2" translate
>> to, in London?
>
>Level 1 - Two bobbies on two bicycles.
>Level 2 - Two bobbies riding a tandem bicycle.
>Level 3 - One bobby, no bicycle.
>Level 4 - Monica Lewinsky.
>
>
Us humour, I guess -what sort of a response is Monica Lewinsky? Does
she have sex with the alarm or something???
...Install a CLinton Alarm System today...the whole country will know
- is it somethingto do with her going on TV and telling tales???
I'm curious....
BTW, most UK coppers have not ridden push bikes for a long time now -
most of them can't be bothered to get out of their cars unless there's
a coffee waiting (ours haven't progeressed to the do-nut eating
yet)....
Rgds
Tony Polson
(Active Digital Security) wrote:
>Us humour, I guess -what sort of a response is Monica Lewinsky? Does
>she have sex with the alarm or something???
No, she waves a (stained?) red dress out of the window and the Federal
prosecutors arrive by the dozen within two minutes.
Robert L Bass
>
> Chris French wrote:
>>
>> No the moral may be to properly install a decent alarm system.
>> Plenty of us DIYers can do that.
>
> True too, but can't get the monitoring which requires approval, and
> more besides... :-(
Fortunately here in the States a DIYer can get monitoring service if he
wants it. We are one of hundreds of alarm companies that cater to DIYers
and also offer UL monitoring.
Active Digital Security
(Hugh Davies) wrote:
>That's their problem. I pay a collosal amount of council tax, which I have
>no choice about, and I fail to see why the police have the right to withdraw
>services.
Hmm.
It might surprise you to know that the police, whilst they have a duty
to respond to a report of crime, do not actually have a duty to
respond to a *third party* report of *suspected* crime.
Based on the breakdown of my own council tax, only about 8% of this
goes toward funding Kent Police - I suspect the figure is broadly the
same across the country.
Bottom line is that nobody is happy that the police withdraw response
to alarm systems - least of all people like me who make a living from
them, but the police, like everyone, have to prioritise, and make the
most efficient use possible of their manpower and other resources -
this inveitably means that some of what they do suffers - and in turn
means that the parts which do suffer have to become more efficient in
order to retain response.
Another approach to the problem might be for you to become a Special
Constable, thus boosting the manpower of your police force - they
would then have less pressure on them in terms of reducing their
response to certain types of request.....
Rgds,
Active Digital Security
(Hugh Davies) wrote:
>>True too, but can't get the monitoring which requires approval, and
>>more besides... :-(
>
>Not necessarily. We contract directly with our monitoring company. No-one's
>ever asked who installed the alarm.
>
I'd be _VERY_ surprised if you got any sort of police response then,
unless the installer was approved and requested a URN for your system
at the time of connecting it to your ARC.
If your ARC don't have a URN logged for your system, I can almost
gurantee that the police will not respond in any case, in the event of
an alarm activation, and if they do (most unlikely) it will be at
best, somewhere below a level two response - in other words,
eventually.
I'd say you can play that one of two ways - you can either keep very
quiet about it, and hope that the police do respond in the event
they're needed, or you can ask your ARC if they have a URN logged for
the system, and what response you can expect if the alarm activates.
The whole area is precisely what is being attacked via ACPO et al, and
they are making it as tight as possible too - they don't want to be
responding to false alarms, such as the 85% or so they have been,
which is why they are withdrawing a certain amount of response to
them. The bottom line is no URN, no response. To get the URN, you
have to first be approved as an installer by any of the five approvals
bodies, which requires that certain standards be in place first, then
you have to prove this to the police services in the areas in which
you wish to install, then they consider whetehr or not to include you
on their list as an approved installer, for installation of remote
signalling systems, against which URNs can be issued.
They also monitor the level of false alarms generated by systems
installed by every approved installer, and if these reach a certain
level, they will withdraw from that installer the facility for issue
of URNs on their systems.
Mungo Henning
> BTW, most UK coppers have not ridden push bikes for a long time now -
Wrong Bill: Strathclyde's finest officers have recently taken to
mountain
bikes for certain areas of Glasgow.
Mind you, if they found a drunk man in Sauchiehall Street they would
drag
him round to Bath Street because its easier to spell...
Mungo :-)
Active Digital Security
(Hugh Davies) wrote:
>I'd have no problem with this, if I were able to decide between
>competing police companies. Since they are a monopoly funded with
>coerced money, they should not have the choice to withdraw services,
>and more than I have the choice not to pay for them.
>
I understand your point of view, but, probably uniquely for the
industry I work in, I can see the terrible waste of those resources we
have no choice but to pay towards, and try to do something about it.
I guess my point was that perhaps my industry should be shouted at as
much, if not more, than the police....
Active Digital Security
ROTFL
....and I stand corrected on the City's Finest.....
or is that regarding (since on would indicate assault on a
policeman)....
Geoff Drage
>The police respond before the siren stops? How long do you program
>your sirens to sound?
I think the standard is 20 mins
> And just where is this place that the police
>still respond to audible alarms?
their local pub, masonic lodge ...
> Sounds like the elusive Utopia where
>alarm systems aren't needed because the police have eliminated crime.
>
>>Nightjar
>>
>>
>
--
Geoff Drage
Alan J Holmes
Andy <AAI_A...@Compuserve.com> wrote:
>aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote:
>> In <35C230...@Compuserve.com>, Andy <AAI_A...@Compuserve.com> writes:
>> >Here in London (UK) the Police will responsd to two false intruder
>> >activations on a level 1 (immediate response). After tow false alarms
>> >the response level goes to Level 2 - will attend, when we can be
>> >bothered sort of thing.
>> >Once the system is free of false calls for 3 months level 1 response is
>> >automatically re-instated.
>> What sort of response times do "Level 1" and "Level 2" translate
>> to, in London?
>The London Metropolitan Police aim to attend level 1 calls within 12
>minutes - level 2 - anyones guess
By which time the intruder has cleared your house as is well on
his way.
A few months back I was involved in a road accident, the police
were called and _three_ cars were there within 3 minutes!
Clearly, writing details of an accident is much more
important than catching burlars!
--
Alan G4CRW, Ex FAA, RNARS and others!
Here I sit, giving the world the benefit of my words of wit and wisdom!
What an exciting life I lead!(:-)
Patrick Bean
Holmes) wrote:
> A few months back I was involved in a road accident, the police
> were called and _three_ cars were there within 3 minutes!
>
> Clearly, writing details of an accident is much more
> important than catching burlars!
Maybe it is simply a question of where they are and what else is going on at
the time. If the intruder is unlucky the police my be only 30 seconds away!
The weak point in the system as far as I can see is the fact that most
police radios are not scrambled in any way so anyone with a scanner will
hear just how long they have got to finish the job!
--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / pdb...@argonet.co.uk (Patrick David Bean)
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___________________________/ Web http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/pdbean
* Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
Paul Vee Cybernaut
Had to re-open this thread a bit regarding UK P Response. Had a reason
to call the Police about 2 weeks ago, where a neighbours alarm went off,
this house in the last 4 yrs (since being built) has had no falsies! and
when I spoke to the Greater Manchester Police I was told it was not
their policy to send cars out to household alarms, I went to investigate
and as it happened it was a false alarm, 20 minutes after going home a
police car arrived and took a look around - great init!
regards Paul
PS I do have respect for the Police and know they are extremely busy at
times but!
Per Mare Per Terram (UK Royal Marine motto - By Sea By Land) Long live 42
Commando
Paul V Cybernaut (Alias "Mr_Muddy", "Ra-Ro_Man", "Caspa" and the "Rattler")
Northumbria Security
is reported by a member of the public UNLESS they say that a "crime is in
progress - IE, the burglars are on the premises" or the police are paying
special attention to the premises for "other reasons".
Having said that, my local force will often drop by a reported alarm
activation if they aren't particularly busy at that point in time.... There
have been a few occasions when I have called the police for a neighbours
alarm bell ringing, mainly because it dosen't go off very often...
--
Ken Mosley
Northumbria Security Services
www.northumbriasecurity.co.uk
Paul Vee Cybernaut wrote in message ...
Andrew Wells
Northumbria Security wrote in message <71i7nn$5v5$1...@news2.btconnect.com>...
>It is my belief that most UK police forces will not attend to an alarm
which
>is reported by a member of the public UNLESS they say that a "crime is in
>progress - IE, the burglars are on the premises" or the police are paying
>special attention to the premises for "other reasons".
Yes, that is absolutely true, as long as it is a class b unmonitored alarm.
If it is a monitored class A system the resonse is the same as for
commercial alarms. The reason is the proliferation of cheap, useless, badly
installed, mainly DIY alarms installed in all sorts of properties. The
Police often are the reason the alarm is going off - I can guarantee that
most Police Officers in urban areas will; set off at least one house or car
alarm a day simply by transmitting on their radios.
>Having said that, my local force will often drop by a reported alarm
>activation if they aren't particularly busy at that point in time.... There
>have been a few occasions when I have called the police for a neighbours
>alarm bell ringing, mainly because it dosen't go off very often...
>
In Essex, an audible alarm gets a similar response [officially called a
grade 2 response] which means a Police car will amble along if not committed
elsewhere. Assuming they can get there within 20 minutes before the bell
cutoff, they will check the premises. After that they may not be able to
find the premises - most people reporting say that they can hear an alarm
but don't know where it is coming from.
Andy Wells.
Frank Erskine
<Andy...@tesco.net> writes
>
>Northumbria Security wrote in message <71i7nn$5v5$1...@news2.btconnect.com>...
>>It is my belief that most UK police forces will not attend to an alarm
>which
>>is reported by a member of the public UNLESS they say that a "crime is in
>>progress - IE, the burglars are on the premises" or the police are paying
>>special attention to the premises for "other reasons".
>
>
>Yes, that is absolutely true, as long as it is a class b unmonitored alarm.
>If it is a monitored class A system the resonse is the same as for
>commercial alarms. The reason is the proliferation of cheap, useless, badly
>installed, mainly DIY alarms installed in all sorts of properties. The
>Police often are the reason the alarm is going off
Ermm no - the reason for the alarm going off is, as you said earlier, is
the cheap useless alarms.
The fact that police radios (or any other nearby radio transmitters for
that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
-any- radio transmissions.
Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
If you have a wireless (radio) alarm system, things *could* be
different. If the "offending" transmitter radiates a spurious signal on
the frequency of your alarm, there could be problems. This is extremely
unlikely except under transmitter fault conditions.
A "wired" alarm system should not be affected by *any* radio
transmissions whatsoever.
HTH -
--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland
Don't go metric - feet, BSF, Whitworth and inches are miles better
Still looking for 67.5V and 100V HT batteries
mar...@my-dejanews.com
<snip>
> Ermm no - the reason for the alarm going off is, as you said earlier, is
> the cheap useless alarms.
>
> The fact that police radios (or any other nearby radio transmitters for
> that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
> immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
> -any- radio transmissions.
>
> Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
> external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
So you've discovered how to design a perfect response brick wall filter? CE
compliance involves being able to operate correctly in a specified set of
conditions, without generating more than a specified amount of EMI. Any
strength at any frequency? I don't think so...
(Although I probably agree with the essence of your post - I would expect a
dodgey alarm installation before checking the police radio 8-) I would also
guess that the proliferation of cheap 'totally wireless' alarm systems may be
a dangerous trend. I've always avoided them, as the idea of a whole bunch of
separately battery powered transmitters seems like a 'easy way' installation
solution that would be more unreliable in the long term(?) )
Mark
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Robert L Bass
>
> (Although I probably agree with the essence of your post - I would expect
a
> dodgey alarm installation before checking the police radio 8-) I would
also
> guess that the proliferation of cheap 'totally wireless' alarm systems may
be
> a dangerous trend. I've always avoided them, as the idea of a whole bunch
of
> separately battery powered transmitters seems like a 'easy way'
installation
> solution that would be more unreliable in the long term(?) )
Quite right, Mark. The wireless "easy way out" is the source of more false
alarms than anything else except user error. The best solution is to
install reliable, hard-wired systems and educate the client thoroughly in
their use.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=====================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
Nigel Worsley
<SNIP>
>The fact that police radios (or any other nearby radio transmitters for
>that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
>immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
>-any- radio transmissions.
>
>Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
>external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
CE compliance certainly won't guarantee total immunity to
interference, only to that likely to be experienced in normal
use. Police radios in the street outside would be normal use,
but a few hundred watts from an amateur radio aerial a foot
from the box would not be (and would probably upset even the
very best of equipment).
As you say, there is a lot of badly designed equipment out there,
particularly in the DIY sector of the market. Until the CE
regulations arrived some designers ignored EMC completely,
resulting in products that would crash all the time.
Nigel Worsley
Paul Vee Cybernaut
<postm...@caspa.demon.co.uk> writes
Snip
A lot of replies so far are talking about DIY alarms, what do you define
as a DIY alarm. Both my alarm and the one I was talking about where both
fitted by a reputable alarm company, and neither of the systems are
wireless, my alarm is a 6 zone and the friends is a 4 zone. Both have
full cabling running throughout the house.
So please where does the DIY bit come in as a factor, or are
professional fitting companies INYHO DIYers
regards
Paul
Nigel Worsley
>as a DIY alarm. Both my alarm and the one I was talking about where both
>fitted by a reputable alarm company, and neither of the systems are
>wireless, my alarm is a 6 zone and the friends is a 4 zone. Both have
>full cabling running throughout the house.
>
>So please where does the DIY bit come in as a factor, or are
>professional fitting companies INYHO DIYers
When we refer to DIY systems, we mean retail boxed kits sold through
home improvement centres and the like. Some of this is reasonable
quality, but most is built down to a price that is just too low for
that.
Nigel Worsley
nightjar
Paul Vee Cybernaut wrote in message ...
>when I spoke to the Greater Manchester Police I was told it was not
>their policy to send cars out to household alarms,
Most Police Forces will only turn up if the alarm system is NACOSS
installed and maintained and if the report comes from a telephone alert to
a central monitoring station. Few domestic users want to spend the sort of
money that type of system costs both to install and to maintain.
Nightjar
Douglas de Lacey
>
> A lot of replies so far are talking about DIY alarms, what do you define
>
> So please where does the DIY bit come in as a factor, or are
> professional fitting companies INYHO DIYers
You clearly haven't noticed that this thread has been imported into
uk.d-i-y, where the vast majority of it is irrelevant. PLEASE, everyone
responding to any message in the thread, look at the headers and decide
which single group you ought to be writing to!!
Douglas de Lacey.
followups set to uk.test since I don't really want to read them....:-)
Andrew Wells
><Andy...@tesco.net> writes
>>
>>Northumbria Security wrote in message
<71i7nn$5v5$1...@news2.btconnect.com>...
>>>It is my belief that most UK police forces will not attend to an alarm
>>which
>>>is reported by a member of the public UNLESS they say that a "crime is in
>>>progress - IE, the burglars are on the premises" or the police are paying
>>>special attention to the premises for "other reasons".
>>
>>
>>Yes, that is absolutely true, as long as it is a class b unmonitored
alarm.
>>If it is a monitored class A system the resonse is the same as for
>>commercial alarms. The reason is the proliferation of cheap, useless,
badly
>>installed, mainly DIY alarms installed in all sorts of properties. The
>>Police often are the reason the alarm is going off
>
>the cheap useless alarms.
I agree, I badly phrased the text - 99.9% are installation probs.
>The fact that police radios (or any other nearby radio transmitters for
>that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
>immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
>-any- radio transmissions.
>
>Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
>external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
>
>If you have a wireless (radio) alarm system, things *could* be
>different. If the "offending" transmitter radiates a spurious signal on
>the frequency of your alarm, there could be problems. This is extremely
>unlikely except under transmitter fault conditions.
>
>A "wired" alarm system should not be affected by *any* radio
>transmissions whatsoever.
>
>HTH -
Really ?:-)
I often patrol in a Police car and can guarantee to go down at least one
road a day and set off an alarm, whilst transmitting on a vehicle based
radio. I have always thought the cause might have been an induced voltage
in the alarm system cable ??? It may be that the alarms are vehicle alarms,
but we don't normally hang around long enough to find out :-)
I also live in a Police headquarters complex, and have a wireless alarm
system - but it never has gone off due to Police radio transmissions. I can
hear Police radios bleeding over the computer speakers, sometimes the
television and opften the FM radio, but it has never set off the wireless
alarm.
Regards,
Andy.
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>
>I often patrol in a Police car and can guarantee to go down at least one
>road a day and set off an alarm, whilst transmitting on a vehicle based
>radio. I have always thought the cause might have been an induced voltage
>in the alarm system cable ??? It may be that the alarms are vehicle alarms,
>but we don't normally hang around long enough to find out :-)
Too bad you don't, or at least listen for the alarm call when it comes over
your radio. You might be able to find a specific piece of crappy equipment,
installed in many locations, which is creating extra calls for the police.
Years ago, I worked for a large alarm company which had been using
a particular brand of infrared detector for several years, with fairly
good results. Then, that manufacturer introduced a new model, and
we began having a rash of false alarms. Eventually we noticed that
our own service trucks could set off alarms by keying the mike on their
service radios. It turned out the infrared manufacturer had only done
RFI tests up to 200 MHz. Our radios were up at 460 MHz. At the
time, Underwriters Laboratories did not have a very specific testing
protocol for RFI. As I understand it, the UK still does not. Perhaps
it should--without a specific testing standard, it's hard to fault the
manufacturers for failing to meet a specific level of RF performance.
Oh, I should add the detectors I described were not wireless detectors,
and it cost the manufacturer (and us) a bunch of money to replace them...
Alan Bennatto
using screened cable.Two remidies after a false alarm due to RF are
fitting RF filters or increase the cable length.The problem is not
wether the equipment is CE compliant but the fact the cable is acting
as an antenna.All equipment I fit is CE compliant but I have had my
fair share of RF induced false alarms.By doing one of the above
remidies has cleared any futher problems.And yes I have proved they
were RF induced and in many cases my PMR in the van actually was the
cause.One bloke at the bottom of my srteet had his alarm company out
numerous times trying to work out why his siren would activate for a
few seconds every now and then.I now confess it was me talking on my
PMR as I went passed his house which triggered it every
time!Taxis,Security patrols and police radios seem to be good at
triggering CE or none CE approved systems.Just because they sat a pir
in a clean enviroment then gave it controlled amounts of selective RF
and it was a good little boy does not make it immune in my book,the
real world is outside!.cheers..BEN.
PS The police policy is the same where I am Police only offically
attend audible only alarms if persons/bugulars reported on the premises.
The message <1uwBbBA6...@g3wte.demon.co.uk>
from Frank Erskine <fr...@g3wte.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> Ermm no - the reason for the alarm going off is, as you said earlier, is
> the cheap useless alarms.
> The fact that police radios (or any other nearby radio transmitters for
> that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
> immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
> -any- radio transmissions.
> Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
> external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
> If you have a wireless (radio) alarm system, things *could* be
> different. If the "offending" transmitter radiates a spurious signal on
> the frequency of your alarm, there could be problems. This is extremely
> unlikely except under transmitter fault conditions.
> A "wired" alarm system should not be affected by *any* radio
> transmissions whatsoever.
> HTH -
Frank Erskine
<Andy...@tesco.net> writes
>>>In article <71io6m$a80$1...@epos.tesco.net>, Andrew Wells
>><Andy...@tesco.net> writes
>>>
>>>Northumbria Security wrote in message
><71i7nn$5v5$1...@news2.btconnect.com>...
>>>>It is my belief that most UK police forces will not attend to an alarm
>>>which
>>>>is reported by a member of the public UNLESS they say that a "crime is in
>>>>progress - IE, the burglars are on the premises" or the police are paying
>>>>special attention to the premises for "other reasons".
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, that is absolutely true, as long as it is a class b unmonitored
>alarm.
>>>If it is a monitored class A system the resonse is the same as for
>>>commercial alarms. The reason is the proliferation of cheap, useless,
>badly
>>>installed, mainly DIY alarms installed in all sorts of properties. The
>>>Police often are the reason the alarm is going off
>>
>>the cheap useless alarms.
>
>
>
>>that matter) trigger the alarm shows that the alarm system has poor
>>immunity to outside signals. CE compliant systems shouldn't suffer from
>>-any- radio transmissions.
>>
>>Even a "DIY" alarm system, properly designed, should not respond to
>>external RF signals, of whatever strength or frequency.
>>
>>If you have a wireless (radio) alarm system, things *could* be
>>different. If the "offending" transmitter radiates a spurious signal on
>>the frequency of your alarm, there could be problems. This is extremely
>>unlikely except under transmitter fault conditions.
>>
>>A "wired" alarm system should not be affected by *any* radio
>>transmissions whatsoever.
>>
>>HTH -
>
>I often patrol in a Police car and can guarantee to go down at least one
>road a day and set off an alarm, whilst transmitting on a vehicle based
>radio. I have always thought the cause might have been an induced voltage
>in the alarm system cable ???
Exactly. An intruder alarm system is (or should be) designed to receive
an alarm signal from a PIR, a microswitch, a vibration sensor, or
whatever, but not to act as a radio receiver. The alarm cables should be
purely passive, sending what the sensor transmits and nothing more. What
does happen is, as you say, induced voltages in the cable - the alarm
system shouldn't respond to these.
This lack of "immunity" is precisely what affected thousands of
television sets, telephones, "baby alarms", "hi-fi" systems, and so on
in the early days of CB radio, where, it seems, in some areas there was
a transmitter in almost every other house! TV etc manufacturers had to
get their fingers out to make their products immune enough to any
reasonably expected radio transmissions.
> It may be that the alarms are vehicle alarms,
>but we don't normally hang around long enough to find out :-)
Either way the alarm system in question is defective.
>
>I also live in a Police headquarters complex, and have a wireless alarm
>system - but it never has gone off due to Police radio transmissions. I can
>hear Police radios bleeding over the computer speakers, sometimes the
>television and opften the FM radio, but it has never set off the wireless
>alarm.
A well-designed alarm system! Congratulate the buyer :-)
Cheers -
aa...@_no.span.deltanet.com
>I would say 9 out of 10 RF induced false alarms can be avoided by
>using screened cable.Two remidies after a false alarm due to RF are
>fitting RF filters or increase the cable length.The problem is not
>wether the equipment is CE compliant but the fact the cable is acting
>as an antenna.All equipment I fit is CE compliant but I have had my
>fair share of RF induced false alarms.
Just as a matter of comparison, over here in the US, we don't use
shielded ("screened") cable except for a few systems which require it.
Fitting RF filters is also virtually unheard of. And, I might add, unnecessary.
I don't know what the CE standards are, but it seems obvious from
your description that they are inadequate when it comes to alarm
equipment. The problems you describe below are exceedingly uncommon
in the US, in my experience, certainly so in the last 15 years.
Any US installers routinely have these problems? Or even occasionally?
Malcolm Carpenter
vandalism and other criminal offences being committed against the
school opposite to our home. We have even had pavements removed and on
at least the last six occasions when telephoned they have said that
nobody is available to respond.
>Hi all
>
>Had to re-open this thread a bit regarding UK P Response. Had a reason
>to call the Police about 2 weeks ago, where a neighbours alarm went off,
>this house in the last 4 yrs (since being built) has had no falsies! and
>when I spoke to the Greater Manchester Police I was told it was not
>their policy to send cars out to household alarms, I went to investigate
>and as it happened it was a false alarm, 20 minutes after going home a
>police car arrived and took a look around - great init!
>regards Paul
>
>PS I do have respect for the Police and know they are extremely busy at
>times but!
Frank Erskine
<mal...@epic.u-net.com> writes
>We have given up calling Lancashire Police in respect of acts of
>vandalism and other criminal offences being committed against the
>school opposite to our home. We have even had pavements removed and on
>at least the last six occasions when telephoned they have said that
>nobody is available to respond.
Write to the Police Authority for the county and see what their response
is. After all, it's their job to supply money for additional cops!
Then if necessary, get your MP to speak to the Home Secretary.
It doesn't really help a lot just complaining on here :-)
HTH -
--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland
Andrew Wells
aa-2@_no.span.deltanet.com wrote in message
<71o3nu$p...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
>In <71o1u7$e6m$2...@epos.tesco.net>, "Andrew Wells" <Andy...@tesco.net>
writes:
>>
>>I often patrol in a Police car and can guarantee to go down at least one
>>road a day and set off an alarm, whilst transmitting on a vehicle based
>>radio. I have always thought the cause might have been an induced voltage
alarms,
>>but we don't normally hang around long enough to find out :-)
>
>your radio. You might be able to find a specific piece of crappy
equipment,
>installed in many locations, which is creating extra calls for the police.
Yes, nice idea, but there are several reasons why I don't hang around:
[1] We always monitor the radio [when poss.] and I have never heard one of
these come over - hence my surmise they might be car alarms. The other
option is they're not monitored which reinforces my perception that they are
badly installed bells only systems.
[2] For the reason[s] above they do not generate extra calls - how often do
people call in bells only alarms ? There are a few well meaning people out
there but a lot don't give a s**t.
[3] To find all the crappy equipment is impossible, especially on older
alarms - we all now of premises where the detectors were fitted by Moses in
pre New Testament times, held up with sticky tape and blutack.
[4] If I've just been transmitting it normally means we're just about to
shoot off to a job, therefore not giving us any time to stop and investigate
spurious false alarms.
[5] If the alarm has activated, it is probably set, if it's set the premises
is probably empty and secure, if it's secure I can't get in to check the
system - and it's not my job anyway :-)
Nice to see agood discussion though :-) :-) :-)
Regards,
Andy.
Andrew Wells
lazy bastards or overstretched.
So I did something about it and joined the Police Reserve [Special
Constabulary]. I am now a BS [Special rank like a Sergeant] in Essex
Police.
And the answers to my original para are:
Yes - some are lazy but no more percentage wise than in any other job.
Given the demoralising effects of the financially driven prosecution service
[CPS - criminal protection society as they are called jokingly] and the
inbalance in sentencing [£500 fine for speeding but only 120 hours community
service for kicking me in the ghead, breaking one of my fingers, assisting
another to escape custody] it is surprising how motivated some are. The CPS
will not prosecute if there is more than a 50% chance the person will get
off - and the CPS make the decision. When you know someone is guilty that
is really frustrating.
Yes - they are very overstretched. On some nightshifts my shift [or scale
as they are called in some forces] parades only 1 Sergeant, 6 PCs, 1 BS and
3 SCs [excluding station based staff for comms, custody etc] for a large
County Town with four night clubs holding between 3000 and 3500 people plus
numerous pubs.
So why not do something about it instead of writing here ? :-) Of course,
there are other ways to help.
Regards,
Andy.
Malcolm Carpenter wrote in message <3640a582...@news.u-net.com>...
Matthew Marks
"Andrew Wells" <Andy...@tesco.net> writes:
> So why not do something about it instead of writing here ?
If you're not a UK or Commonwealth citizen you cannot be a Special Constable.
Alun Michael was supposed to be looking into this anachronism, but it seems
he's now moved on to greater things...
--
Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's