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Vista 20P 5800 series wireless InSaNiTy!
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Airdorn
Jan 15, 2021, 1:34:28 AM1/15/21
to
Hello friends!
30 year service tech with a local family-owned alarm company here. I've been installing/servicing the Honeywell Vista series all the way back from the 10/20SE days. Man, those were terrible panels. The 15/20P is obviously much, much better.
I'm well versed in the 15/20P -- they make up probaly 80% of roughly 5000 accounts we monitor, so I see the Vista 20P multiple times every day because I run service calls fixing what'd you'd expect: Broken switches, dead batteries, the usual garden variety stuff. We have a massive amount of 5800 series wireless stuff out there and I see that every day too..
I'm not posting this to boast, but to demonstrate that I'm pretty darned sharp with the 5800 series wireless stuff on the V20P. I've seen every possible problem, or so I thought.....
[BEGIN THE MEAT OF THE POST]
Over the past 2-ish years I've seen a certain problem a handfull of times with V20P wireless. I've not been able to discover the cause of this or any remedy. Honeywell tech support is baffled and they can't offer any insight at all. Here is what happens.
Vista 20P alarm system with 5881 receiver (L, M, or H -- doesn't matter) is installed, up and running. There may or may not be hardwire zones installed. That does not matter. Presence of other devices like zone expander does not appear to matter either.
In every instance I have seen this problem, there have been numerous 5816 wireless sensors enrolled and operating fine. There may also be wireless smoke, wireless glassbreak, etc.
After the system is up and running for a period of time --- I've not been able to determine how long, or even if that matters -- the system may begin to act erratically as if doors were opening/closing very rapidly, over and over. For instance, when a 5816 sensor is tripped (by opening the door), the V20P displays the faulted zone approprately. When closed, the display shows appropriately. But within a few seconds, the zone will appear to trip again and restore very rapidly. A few seconds later, it may happen again, then restore. If clime mode is on, the keypad will chime each time. Then, the zone may stay faulted for a seemingly-random period of time, then restore. Then it may work correctly for a while. But ten trip/restore again -- sometimes in rapidfire display. It's quite the comedy to watch: someone opens the front door, for instance, and the keypad displays and chimes as expected, then does it again and again and again in an erratic way -- as if someone were opening/closing the door very very fast, faster than a human being could possibly do it.
Each time I have run into this, I have deleted the zone, and relearned a new sensor, reasoning the sensor has gone wonky. But then, that one will also behave the same way. Learning it by tripping the sensor or by manually entering the serial number does not matter. The loop number (internal reed or external contacts) does not matter either.
I have deleted the zone and moved to a new one with a new sensor -- same thing.
I have deleted all zones and started over -- same thing.
On a couple of occasions, when programming a new wireless zone, when the system is in learn mode, seemingly-random serial numbers will sort of "learn" into the system over and over. None of the serial numbers displayed on the learn screen are ones on the system. And no, my service truck doesn't have any rogue transmitting sensors in the trashcan in the back! :)
The learn mode behavior lead me to believe that a nearby system V20P -- maybe a next door neighbor -- is interfering with programming. Honeywell tech support seems to believe that may be the right track, but they offer no further help along those lines.
I just don't know why aready-programmed sensors would be affected in such a way that the weird run-mode behavior happens. All I can think of is that there is some kind of wireless data spamming from the offending neighbor.
---
As anecdotal example, I once had to put all-new wireless on an existing Vista 20P: 19 5816 window sensors. So, to save myself time at the customer's house, I went ahead and put batteries in all the devices at the shop and got them ready for fast enrolling.
That was a mistake! When I brought them all to the customer's house, I found that I could not get ANYTHING to program. I had to take all batteries back out of them and then put them back in one-by-one while programming each zone. My theory is that since they were all unprogrammed and, thus, unrecognized by the system, they were all talking gibberish to the V20P and the receiver was rejecting all that noise and kind of flooding out with the nonsense. Only after each one was enrolled one-by-one did that system work properly.
But this post is about existing systems that work fine but begin displaying the weird run-time behavior either after adding a single new wireless sensor, or a whole new system that just beings to fail on it's own relatively soon after initial install.
One last thing. Normally on the 5881 receiver the red LED will flicker 4 times very rapidly when it receives any sort of message from a sensor. If a 5816 sensor is tripped, the light will flicker. When restored, it will flicker. That is normal behavior.
When this weird problem is happening, the red LED will flicker as expected when the sensor is tripped. But while the weird behavior is happening, the red LED is NOT flickering, which leads me to believe a sensor is not actually transmitting anything to the receiver at that moment. It's as if the V20P system itself is roiled in some internal turmoil.
If anyone has seen this problem and has any insight that could shed some light, I'd appreciate a reply!
Airdorn
30 year service tech with a local family-owned alarm company here. I've been installing/servicing the Honeywell Vista series all the way back from the 10/20SE days. Man, those were terrible panels. The 15/20P is obviously much, much better.
I'm well versed in the 15/20P -- they make up probaly 80% of roughly 5000 accounts we monitor, so I see the Vista 20P multiple times every day because I run service calls fixing what'd you'd expect: Broken switches, dead batteries, the usual garden variety stuff. We have a massive amount of 5800 series wireless stuff out there and I see that every day too..
I'm not posting this to boast, but to demonstrate that I'm pretty darned sharp with the 5800 series wireless stuff on the V20P. I've seen every possible problem, or so I thought.....
[BEGIN THE MEAT OF THE POST]
Over the past 2-ish years I've seen a certain problem a handfull of times with V20P wireless. I've not been able to discover the cause of this or any remedy. Honeywell tech support is baffled and they can't offer any insight at all. Here is what happens.
Vista 20P alarm system with 5881 receiver (L, M, or H -- doesn't matter) is installed, up and running. There may or may not be hardwire zones installed. That does not matter. Presence of other devices like zone expander does not appear to matter either.
In every instance I have seen this problem, there have been numerous 5816 wireless sensors enrolled and operating fine. There may also be wireless smoke, wireless glassbreak, etc.
After the system is up and running for a period of time --- I've not been able to determine how long, or even if that matters -- the system may begin to act erratically as if doors were opening/closing very rapidly, over and over. For instance, when a 5816 sensor is tripped (by opening the door), the V20P displays the faulted zone approprately. When closed, the display shows appropriately. But within a few seconds, the zone will appear to trip again and restore very rapidly. A few seconds later, it may happen again, then restore. If clime mode is on, the keypad will chime each time. Then, the zone may stay faulted for a seemingly-random period of time, then restore. Then it may work correctly for a while. But ten trip/restore again -- sometimes in rapidfire display. It's quite the comedy to watch: someone opens the front door, for instance, and the keypad displays and chimes as expected, then does it again and again and again in an erratic way -- as if someone were opening/closing the door very very fast, faster than a human being could possibly do it.
Each time I have run into this, I have deleted the zone, and relearned a new sensor, reasoning the sensor has gone wonky. But then, that one will also behave the same way. Learning it by tripping the sensor or by manually entering the serial number does not matter. The loop number (internal reed or external contacts) does not matter either.
I have deleted the zone and moved to a new one with a new sensor -- same thing.
I have deleted all zones and started over -- same thing.
On a couple of occasions, when programming a new wireless zone, when the system is in learn mode, seemingly-random serial numbers will sort of "learn" into the system over and over. None of the serial numbers displayed on the learn screen are ones on the system. And no, my service truck doesn't have any rogue transmitting sensors in the trashcan in the back! :)
The learn mode behavior lead me to believe that a nearby system V20P -- maybe a next door neighbor -- is interfering with programming. Honeywell tech support seems to believe that may be the right track, but they offer no further help along those lines.
I just don't know why aready-programmed sensors would be affected in such a way that the weird run-mode behavior happens. All I can think of is that there is some kind of wireless data spamming from the offending neighbor.
---
As anecdotal example, I once had to put all-new wireless on an existing Vista 20P: 19 5816 window sensors. So, to save myself time at the customer's house, I went ahead and put batteries in all the devices at the shop and got them ready for fast enrolling.
That was a mistake! When I brought them all to the customer's house, I found that I could not get ANYTHING to program. I had to take all batteries back out of them and then put them back in one-by-one while programming each zone. My theory is that since they were all unprogrammed and, thus, unrecognized by the system, they were all talking gibberish to the V20P and the receiver was rejecting all that noise and kind of flooding out with the nonsense. Only after each one was enrolled one-by-one did that system work properly.
But this post is about existing systems that work fine but begin displaying the weird run-time behavior either after adding a single new wireless sensor, or a whole new system that just beings to fail on it's own relatively soon after initial install.
One last thing. Normally on the 5881 receiver the red LED will flicker 4 times very rapidly when it receives any sort of message from a sensor. If a 5816 sensor is tripped, the light will flicker. When restored, it will flicker. That is normal behavior.
When this weird problem is happening, the red LED will flicker as expected when the sensor is tripped. But while the weird behavior is happening, the red LED is NOT flickering, which leads me to believe a sensor is not actually transmitting anything to the receiver at that moment. It's as if the V20P system itself is roiled in some internal turmoil.
If anyone has seen this problem and has any insight that could shed some light, I'd appreciate a reply!
Airdorn
RTS
Jan 15, 2021, 10:55:37 AM1/15/21
to
with all the new "smart" electronic gadgets in modern homes
RF noise imposed on the clocking of the processor might
cause the random actions..
Your odd behavior only happens "after" a legitimate signal
is received, "Right"?
Which would make me think the processor is acting normally
but is then hijacked by random RF noise "hacking" the clocking
data stream.
(either in the cabinet or along the wiring from receiver to panel)
This could be hard to pin point.
But a RF spectrum analyzer might be able to spot RF noise
sources in the immediate area..
RTS
--
*Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*
ABLE1
Jan 15, 2021, 11:03:57 AM1/15/21
to
To confirm: 1) Only happens with Ademco Wireless items??
2) installed in the same geographic area??
3) so far only happens with your company??
My first thoughts are (may help or not) that since it is with
wireless items that there may be some RF transmission that is
happening locally. Radar, Microwave, CB, TV, Radio, and any
other "unknown" military or civilian/alien radio transmissions.
The only thing I can suggest would be to find someone with a
"Absorption Wavemeter" that might be able to tune in to see what
happens with the bandwidth during an event.
There may be other devices to see what is happening at or around the
345 MHz frequency in the area.
For me I had an issue trying to get some wireless window sensors to
learn into a Networx NX8 receiver a year ago. Nothing worked. I
thought I had a bad receiver. I left the property and later that
evening the customer called me and asked if anything I did would
cause his garage door remote to stop working?? He could get it
to work when he stood directly under the opener with it raised
up in his hand.
Long story, short!! Turns out he had 3 neighbors with the same
problem. After trying to brain storm on the cause for 2 days
just as quickly as it started it stopped. Opener worked Ok.
And was able to learn in the sensor with out a hitch. And
has been working great since. Don't know what the cause was
and at this time don't care.
One other story. About 30 years ago the local police radio network
was down. Police contacted FCC and within 24 hours found the problem
with a house in the city that the owner had purchase a Christmas
Tree music box of some kind that did not have a FCC rating. Was from
"another place" on the planet. It was putting out some very bad RF and
was close enough to the police radio tower to cause bad interference.
Needless to say the toy was confiscated.
That is about all I have to help start the thoughts and some kind of
troubleshooting maybe in a different direction. The problem you have
will be difficult to find and correct. Hard wiring is ALWAYS the
better choice.
Good Luck and by all means if you do find the problem please report
back your findings.
There are a few other Old Pharts here that will have there own stories
to tell. You will just have to wait for them to respond. :-)
Have a better New Year!!
Les
Airdorn
Jan 16, 2021, 4:53:53 PM1/16/21
to
On Fri Jan 15 11:03:52 2021 ABLE1 wrote:
> On 1/15/2021 1:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
[MY LONG RAMBLING STORY DELETED]
> On 1/15/2021 1:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
2. All of our installs are around a certain metropolitan areas in the United States.
3. No idea if other companies have seen this problem
It's worth noting that the way we solved the problem the first time we ran into it about 2 years ago was by completely removing the Honeywell equipment and replacing it all with DSC PowerSeries stuff. The customer has not had any problems since.
Thanks for your insights, Les. I plan on setting up a spectrum analyzer and taking a look at the environmment next go-round. I'm pretty convinced that the problem is interference related, causing noise levels to be high. I guess Honeywell tech support isn't really helping because to do so would probably expose some technical weaknesses to wireless tech that they really don't want to do.
Thanks again!
Airdorn
Jan 16, 2021, 4:56:39 PM1/16/21
to
On Fri Jan 15 09:55:33 2021 RTS wrote:
> On 1/15/2021 12:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
> > Hello friends!
> >
[MY LONG SOB STORY DELETED FOR BREVITY]
> On 1/15/2021 12:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
> > Hello friends!
> >
> >
> > Airdorn
> >
>
>
> Howdy, Try a good ground on the vista panel box..
> with all the new "smart" electronic gadgets in modern homes
> RF noise imposed on the clocking of the processor might
> cause the random actions..
> Your odd behavior only happens "after" a legitimate signal
> is received, "Right"?
> Which would make me think the processor is acting normally
> but is then hijacked by random RF noise "hacking" the clocking
> data stream.
> (either in the cabinet or along the wiring from receiver to panel)
>
> This could be hard to pin point.
> But a RF spectrum analyzer might be able to spot RF noise
> sources in the immediate area..
>
> RTS
>
> --
>
> *Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*
>
Good idea, I'm going to try that when I go back to the customer's house to address the problem.
Thanks for your insight!
RTS
Jan 16, 2021, 9:06:35 PM1/16/21
to
box, you could try torid traps on the yellow/green wires going from the
panel to receiver..
that might help with the RF on the leads..
alar...@aol.com
Jan 17, 2021, 4:25:11 PM1/17/21
to
You (sorta) beat me to it. But great minds think alike!
I don't and haven't used (Ademco) Honeywell products or wireless products since the 5600 wireless days. But Napco has an earth ground terminal on their receiver. So, to the OP Airdorn, I'd suggest try using an earth ground and or a shielded cable on the wire between the panel and the receiver. (and possibly any other exposed wire ( have to experiment))
With regard to this happening randomly, if there IS a strong RF source in your area such as a major airport or government base, etc. remember that each length of wire is (in effect) an antenna of sorts and makes grounding and shielded cabling all the more important. And if those possible sources of RF ARE in your area, how do they relate geographically to where your alarm systems were installed? You can try 1000PF capacitors to ground at various points also.
Had a similar problem years ago with wired (not wireless) PIR detectors at miscellaneous locations. Motion detector of a couple of manufacturers would just sit there with no movement and go into multiple activations over a period of time. I had to sit there for hours watching the detector before I witnessed what was happening. Shielded cable and tinfoil inside the case of the PIR cured it but we never did find what the source was. We suspected that it might have been a Taxi cab company's two way radios but we just didn't have the resources to prove it.
Airdorn
Jan 18, 2021, 11:13:35 PM1/18/21
to
Got an example of such a torid wrap? DO you mean like a ferrite bead or choke for RF?
Thanks!
RTS
Jan 19, 2021, 2:46:00 AM1/19/21
to
other times a couple of turns around the bead is needed.
Usually the Q of the bead will decide the correct number of turns..
If your receiver is fairly close I'd guess straight through or 1-2
turns.. (close to the panel end of the run)
If a longer run of wire try them at each end of the wire run..
Engineers will give you the long formula, I find it quicker to
just experiment..
Like some others have said, you might tinfoil the receiver case
(just don't block the antenna)
The aim is to reduce the stray RF getting to the processor..
ABLE1
Jan 19, 2021, 8:24:02 AM1/19/21
to
IP camera back to the NVR from a Lighted Sign at the road.
There was no way other than trenching or wireless to get the signal
there. Trenching would have cost an Arm and a Leg if not more and
Wireless is a PITA.
I used a pair of TP-Link Power Adapters and when the LED lights came
on the sign at night the video went elsewhere.
The answer was to install Ferrite Cores on the AC power line. I got
a pack of about 16 units that were split and I just snapped them
on the wire. Don't remember exactly but I think it took about
12 or so to stop the noise. All has been good ever since.
The point of the above is that on the conversation Split Ferrite Cores
could help with the Ademco Wireless challenge. But, it will take a
bit of experimenting to get it right.
Good Luck!!
Les
Airdorn
Jan 24, 2021, 3:55:48 AM1/24/21
to
On Tue Jan 19 01:45:53 2021 RTS wrote:
> On 1/18/2021 10:13 PM, Airdorn wrote:
> > On Sat Jan 16 20:06:32 2021 RTS wrote:
> >> On 1/16/2021 3:56 PM, Airdorn wrote:
> >>> On Fri Jan 15 09:55:33 2021 RTS wrote:
> >>>> On 1/15/2021 12:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
> >>>>> Hello friends!
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> [MY LONG SOB STORY DELETED FOR BREVITY]
>
> On 1/18/2021 10:13 PM, Airdorn wrote:
> > On Sat Jan 16 20:06:32 2021 RTS wrote:
> >> On 1/16/2021 3:56 PM, Airdorn wrote:
> >>> On Fri Jan 15 09:55:33 2021 RTS wrote:
> >>>> On 1/15/2021 12:34 AM, Airdorn wrote:
> >>>>> Hello friends!
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> [MY LONG SOB STORY DELETED FOR BREVITY]
>
> yea thats right, some times a single pass through the bead will do,
> other times a couple of turns around the bead is needed.
> Usually the Q of the bead will decide the correct number of turns..
> If your receiver is fairly close I'd guess straight through or 1-2
> turns.. (close to the panel end of the run)
> If a longer run of wire try them at each end of the wire run..
>
> Engineers will give you the long formula, I find it quicker to
> just experiment..
> Like some others have said, you might tinfoil the receiver case
> (just don't block the antenna)
>
> The aim is to reduce the stray RF getting to the processor..
>
> --
>
> *Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*
>
Yeah, I ordered some rf chokes.. half of the order came in... the other half is is USPS limbo...
> other times a couple of turns around the bead is needed.
> Usually the Q of the bead will decide the correct number of turns..
> If your receiver is fairly close I'd guess straight through or 1-2
> turns.. (close to the panel end of the run)
> If a longer run of wire try them at each end of the wire run..
>
> Engineers will give you the long formula, I find it quicker to
> just experiment..
> Like some others have said, you might tinfoil the receiver case
> (just don't block the antenna)
>
> The aim is to reduce the stray RF getting to the processor..
>
> --
>
> *Rocky T. Squirrel, esq.*
>
Meanwhile, I sent a tech to simply replace the panel. The thing is a very early rebranded Vista 15P. Tech support said they don't officially support it any more (it has a 2003 date code), but that there was no reason it should be a problem.
Anyway, our tech replaced it and enrolled all the customer's wireless without issue thus far. Newer stuff may have better built-in spurious/interfering RF suppression. If it takes a dump then, well... it's a good starting point anyway.
I'll keep everyone posted.
Jim Davis
Jan 24, 2021, 3:47:20 PM1/24/21
to
On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 3:55:48 AM UTC-5, Airdorn wrote:
> Yeah, I ordered some rf chokes.. half of the order came in... the other half is is USPS limbo...
>
> Meanwhile, I sent a tech to simply replace the panel. The thing is a very early rebranded Vista 15P. Tech support said they don't officially support it any more (it has a 2003 date code), but that there was no reason it should be a problem.
>
> Anyway, our tech replaced it and enrolled all the customer's wireless without issue thus far. Newer stuff may have better built-in spurious/interfering RF suppression. If it takes a dump then, well... it's a good starting point anyway.
>
> I'll keep everyone posted.
Sounds good.
> Yeah, I ordered some rf chokes.. half of the order came in... the other half is is USPS limbo...
>
> Meanwhile, I sent a tech to simply replace the panel. The thing is a very early rebranded Vista 15P. Tech support said they don't officially support it any more (it has a 2003 date code), but that there was no reason it should be a problem.
>
> Anyway, our tech replaced it and enrolled all the customer's wireless without issue thus far. Newer stuff may have better built-in spurious/interfering RF suppression. If it takes a dump then, well... it's a good starting point anyway.
>
> I'll keep everyone posted.
Why don't you stop in occasionally just to see what (if anything) is going on?
Some more questions, Some experiences. The regulars have been here so long we've just about exhausted our cache of experiences. We could use some more input to keep the group going.
Airdorn
Feb 24, 2021, 10:33:52 PM2/24/21
to
On Fri Jan 15 06:34:25 2021 Airdorn wrote:
> Hello friends!
>
[SNIP]
Just a quick follow-up about this 5800 series wireless crazyness...
I'm going out to this location tomorrow to just replace the Vista 20P system with a DSC 1832, 5500Z keypad, and some DSC wireless devices.
I tried everything mentioned in this post to no avail. Sensing the customer was beginning to get fed up, I decided to just start over with another manufacturer.
I thought about using one of those Aluha translator devices and keep the Vista 20P and keypad, but it turns out that they won't translate life-safety devices like smoke detectors.
I shot the customer a very fair price (right at cost actually, just to keep their business) and they were fine with that.
I'll let everyone know if the DSC equipment has the same problems!
Airdorn
> Hello friends!
>
[SNIP]
Just a quick follow-up about this 5800 series wireless crazyness...
I'm going out to this location tomorrow to just replace the Vista 20P system with a DSC 1832, 5500Z keypad, and some DSC wireless devices.
I tried everything mentioned in this post to no avail. Sensing the customer was beginning to get fed up, I decided to just start over with another manufacturer.
I thought about using one of those Aluha translator devices and keep the Vista 20P and keypad, but it turns out that they won't translate life-safety devices like smoke detectors.
I shot the customer a very fair price (right at cost actually, just to keep their business) and they were fine with that.
I'll let everyone know if the DSC equipment has the same problems!
Airdorn
Jim Davis
Feb 24, 2021, 11:11:53 PM2/24/21
to
Message has been deleted
mleuck
Feb 27, 2021, 10:46:36 PM2/27/21
to
Airdorn
Mar 5, 2021, 12:34:52 AM3/5/21
to
OK, I replaced everything today with the DSC 1832. It all went without a hitch and seems to be working well.
Airdorn
Mar 5, 2021, 12:38:37 AM3/5/21
to
On Sat Feb 27 19:46:34 2021 mleuck wrote:
> The DSC wireless is 433 mhz which is in the same range of a lot of other wireless devices, still might not have issues. I would have gone with a Neo using PowerG sensors, 915 mhz longer range (1 mile) and likely less issues with interference
I considered the NEO, it's a beautiful and elegant system.
> The DSC wireless is 433 mhz which is in the same range of a lot of other wireless devices, still might not have issues. I would have gone with a Neo using PowerG sensors, 915 mhz longer range (1 mile) and likely less issues with interference
However, I have a large stock of older DSC Powerseries stuff I need to get rid of, so that's what they got!
It's a rather small house so range isn't an issue at all. So no need for that NEO awesomeness here. Really I just needed to get away from that Honeywell 5800 series stuff because of the aforementioned problems with this location.
Thanks!
Airdorn
RTS
Mar 5, 2021, 3:55:01 AM3/5/21
to
Tks, RTS
Jim Davis
Mar 5, 2021, 4:53:41 PM3/5/21
to
Nick Markowitz
Mar 15, 2021, 8:08:27 AM3/15/21
to
mleuck
Mar 17, 2021, 11:52:54 PM3/17/21
to
> >
> >
> > Airdorn
> I have not experinced this issue but have 5800 deployed mostly commercail installs but as others have noted all my installs are properly grounded. I also tend to install the receiver inside the vista 20P can which cuts down interference to board
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