Napco system questions
cha...@shore.net
two GEM-RP1CAe2 Keypads, and all windows and doors contacted, several
CO's, System Sensor SD's, motion detectors, and six or eight zone
modules positioned adjacent to the panel mounted in the basement.
Due to a lack of time to inspect the entire system on all floors, I do
not have enough information to prepare a proposal to replace the
operating system with one which she is familiar, or to tell her to
keep the existing system; hence the need for a few answers from you
Napco installers.
The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. I have a copy of
the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.
Since the panel (forgot to get model number, but was installed within
the last two years) is 8- zones, how are the zone modules configured?
Does each contact, CO detector, Motion detector, get home-runned to
the zone module adjacent to the panel, or do some installers mount the
zone module close to the windows or doors, for example, and run one
cable to the panel?
Or can the output of an 8-zone module be fed to another 8- zone
module, before it finally gets connected to the main panel?
Do all the zone modules connect to a specific set of terminals in the
panel, or are the outputs of the zone modules connected to one of the
eight zones?
Though she has been instructed by the company that installed the
system, she still says the system is too complicated, and does not
think the Keypad is user friendly. Her previous home contained a
Caddx/GE NX8E panel and 8-zone LED Keypad.
She would like to switch to an NX8E system again, but I told her that
she would need two LCD Keypads, but in terms of operation, all else
would be pretty much familiar to her.
If the devices on all levels of the house are home runned to the
basement zone modules, then my work of converting to GE would be
relatively easy. If there are some zone modules mounted on other
levels of the house, with only the outputs homerunned to the basement,
I will tell her to keep the system.
Also, is there a way that I can determine if the system is connected
to any home-automation devices? I do not want to replace the zone
modules and panel, only to find later that one or more home-automation
devices don't function.
Thanks. Charlie
CH®IS
> The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. I have a copy of
> the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.
>
What is this... the White House? Unless by a "few spares" you mean 60, how
many zones could one possibly use for a house. Really though, how big is
this place?
I would have a very close look at the system and make sure it'll work with
the new panel. I'd especially be concerned about it's power requirements.
It would be ridiculous not to homerun everything in the house to the main
panel area.
Although I don't know what the limit is for either of these panels as far as
number of zones, I'm going to guess you've hit it or are getting close to
it. You could also try panelguides.com if you don't have the Napco manuals.
I just hope the wiring in the panels is all neatly laid out for you. Have
fun :)
- Chris
Jim
Hi Chalie,
Much of what you are asking are things that would have been done as
decided upon by the installer but I'll give it a try.
The panel that you are talking about is probably the Napco Gemini
9600. That is .... if you are accurate in saying that there are close
to 96 zones used. The basic 9600 is an 8 zone panel which can be
expanded with EZM 8's ... 8 zone expansion modules. The GEM-RP1CAe2
keypads also can be used as zone expanders. Four additional zones per
keypad. Exactly how they are wired is kind of hard to say but the
EZM's must be wired into the four wire keypad bus. Kepads and EZM's
can be wired in series or in parallel to the keypad bus and thus can
acutally be mounted anyplace in the building as long as the four wire
keypad bus is there. From that EZM-8, eight zones of the system can be
terminated there. Each EZM is given an address by the use and
placement of jumpers located under the cover of the EZM modules. All
the zone expansion devices must be addressed in sequence so by
interpreting the placement of the jumpers in each EZM module will
allow you to determine which module corresponds to which 8 zones in
the system. The zone expanders in the keypads are addressed at each of
the individual keypads. You can get installation instructions from
Napco's web site along with user manuals.
How the zones are wired would have been up to the installer. Most
desireable is a separate home run for each device, but hardly anyone
does that. Usually powered devices are wired per zone. Most of the
time installers will group windows in a particular room to one zone.
Maybe doors might be on seperate runs also. But it's up to the
installers, how it's done.
From your description it seems that all the modules are near the main
panel.
Whether there are home automation devices on the system or not ... if
there is no additional relays or modules attached to the panel, my
guess would be no.
I don't understand the reason for changing the panel. If her old panel
was an 8 zone ...... any manufacturers panel .... and she's trying to
compare that to an installation that requires almost 96 zones ....
it's not going to make any difference WHAT kind of new panel you
replace the Napco panel with ........... she's STILL going to have a
problem understanding it. You can't compare an 8 zone panel to a 96
zone .... ANY .... manufacturers panel and think it's going to be just
as easy to operate. I can understand that if you are not familiar
enough with the Napco panel to explain it to her,.... but to just
change it out .... at HER expense .... to a panel simply so that you
CAN explain it to her .... just doesn't seem to be the right thing to
do .... to me. Either learn the Napco panel or see if you can pay
someone who knows the system to explain it to her, while you pick up
the monitoring. I'm sure someone would take a $100.00 to spend an hour
or so explaining the system to her ...... properly.
That is .... if you have the dealer codes to get into programing ....
etc.
I've been installing Napco for about 30 years and I never have a
problem teaching anyone ..... including elderly people ( that is ....
older than me. ) how to use it.
Also, doesn't she have a monitoring agreement with the installing
company? If so, she might be obligated to complete the contract with
them before she could change companys ...... anyway.
You didn't say where you are located. Maybe someone here is close
enough to you to help you out.
cha...@shore.net
exactly how it is used.
Per the 96-zone printed list: Five zones of smoke and heat detectors;
two sump pump zones, three motions; sixty-three windows; eight doors;
eight CO detectors; seven spare zones.
cha...@shore.net
wrote:
>On Jun 4, 10:04?pm, cha...@shore.net wrote:
>> Long time customer moved into house containing Napco ?8-zone Panel,
>> two GEM-RP1CAe2 Keypads, and all windows and doors contacted, several
>> CO's, System Sensor SD's, motion detectors, and six or eight zone
>> modules positioned adjacent to the panel mounted in the basement.
>>
>> Due to a lack of time to inspect the entire system on all floors, I do
>> not have enough information to prepare a proposal to replace the
>> operating ?system with one which she is familiar, or to tell her to
>> keep the existing system; hence the need for a few answers from you
>> Napco installers.
>>
>> The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. ?I have a copy of
>> the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.
>>
>> Since the panel (forgot to get model number, but was installed within
>> the last two years) is 8- zones, how are the zone modules configured?
>> Does each contact, CO detector, Motion detector, get home-runned to
>> the zone module adjacent to the panel, or do some installers mount the
>> zone module close to the windows or doors, for example, and run one
>> cable to the panel?
>>
>> Or can the output of an 8-zone module be fed to another 8- zone
>> module, before it finally gets connected to the main panel?
>>
>> Do all the zone modules connect to a specific set of terminals in the
>> panel, or are the outputs of the zone modules connected to one of the
>> eight zones?
>>
>> Though she has been instructed by the company that installed the
>> system, she still says the system is too complicated, and does not
>> think the Keypad is user friendly. ?Her previous home contained a
>> Caddx/GE NX8E panel and 8-zone LED Keypad.
>>
>> She would like to switch to an NX8E system again, but I told her that
>> she would need two LCD Keypads, but in terms of operation, all else
>> would be pretty much familiar to her.
>>
>> If the devices on all levels of the house are home runned to the
>> basement zone modules, then my work of converting to GE would be
>> relatively easy. ?If there are some zone modules mounted on other
>> levels of the house, with only the outputs homerunned to the basement,
>> I will tell her to keep the system.
>>
>> Also, is there a way that I can determine if the system is connected
>> to any home-automation devices? ?I do not want to replace the zone
>> modules and panel, only to find later that one or more home-automation
>> devices don't function.
>>
>> Thanks. ?Charlie
Thanks for the detailed response, Jim.
Money is no object here. She and husband and child moved to a bedroom
community north of Boston a few weeks ago. Their Boston condo, at the
low-numbered end of Commonwealth Ave, is on the market; and real
estate at this location goes for very big bucks.
There are only two Keypads in the house, one near the entry/exit door,
and one in the master bedroom on the second floor. To determine how
the various doors/windows, etc. are configured with the zone modules,
I will need to re-visit the house.
Regardless of the number of zones, I can program the NX8E so that when
she leaves the house, she simply pushes the EXIT key, arming the
entire system. When she returns she enters her code.
At night she would push the STAY key, which would arm the system and
automatically bypass one or more interior zones.
These two actions are what she finds easy to do. Does the Napco
keypad offer the same features? Or does she need to perform
additional procedure with the Napco pad?
Do installers typically mount the EZM8 modules in a closet, or under a
window, etc., rather than home-running the 8 cables to the EZM8
mounted close to the 9600 panel?
Robert L Bass
>
> Long time customer moved into house containing Napco 8-zone Panel, two
> GEM-RP1CAe2 Keypads, and all windows and doors contacted, several
> CO's, System Sensor SD's, motion detectors, and six or eight zone modules
> positioned adjacent to the panel mounted in the basement. Due to a lack of
> time to inspect the entire system on all floors, I do not have enough
> information to prepare a proposal to replace the operating system with one
> which she is familiar, or to tell her to keep the existing system; hence the
> need for a few answers from you Napco installers.
It sounds like she has a Napco P9600 system. Don't replace it. There are
very few systems that are even as good, let alone better than the one she has.
> The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. I have a copy of the
> zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.
That's correct. The modules are the EZM-8, Napco's standard 8-zone expanders.
> Since the panel (forgot to get model number, but was installed within the
> last two years) is 8- zones, how are the zone modules configured?
Every feature of each zone can be independantly programmed. In the ideal
situation, each sensor is on a separate zone, making it possible to precisely
identify the point of intrusion. Likewise, servicing the system is enhanced
as you can tell exactly which sensor or loop has a problem.
> Does each contact, CO detector, Motion detector, get home-runned to the zone
> module adjacent to the panel, or do some installers mount the zone module
> close to the windows or doors, for example, and run one cable to the panel?
This varies from company to company. I've installed hundreds of these
systems. On large projects we usually located one or more EZM-8 modules near
the panel and the rest were spread around the home, close to each
concentration of sensors.
> Or can the output of an 8-zone module be fed to another 8- zone module,
> before it finally gets connected to the main panel?
The zone expansion modules, like Napco keypads and other databus devices, can
be home run to the panel or daisy chained along a master run. We usually used
the latter approach. Sometimes we borrowed a technique used in fire alarms,
running a 4-conductor cable from the panel to the first keypad or module, on
to the next and so on to the module furthest from the panel. From there we
would run another 4-wire circuit back to the panel along a different route.
This made the system "fault tolerant" up to a singlt cut through the circuit.
When wiring during construction where other tradesmen sometimes do "bad
things" this can be a real job saver.
> Do all the zone modules connect to a specific set of terminals in the panel,
> or are the outputs of the zone modules connected to one of the eight zones?
The modules connect to the same 4 terminals as all the keypads.
> Though she has been instructed by the company that installed the system, she
> still says the system is too complicated, and does not think the Keypad is
> user friendly. Her previous home contained a Caddx/GE NX8E panel and 8-zone
> LED Keypad.
If you study the user manual and properly teach her to use it, she'll likely
change her mind about that. I've taught end users not just how to operate the
P9600 but even how to install it. The RP1CAe2 keypad is easy to understand
once you learn to use the "Function" key.
> She would like to switch to an NX8E system again, but I told her that she
> would need two LCD Keypads, but in terms of operation, all else would be
> pretty much familiar to her.
She'll need to replace not just the panel and keypads, but the exp[ansion
modules as well. Also, note that the RP1Cae2 keypads have built-in 4-zone
expanders. If these are being used, you'll need to rewire those zones as
well.
> If the devices on all levels of the house are home runned to the basement
> zone modules, then my work of converting to GE would be relatively easy. If
> there are some zone modules mounted on other levels of the house, with only
> the outputs homerunned to the basement, I will tell her to keep the system.
Tell her to keep it. If you want help understanding it yourself, feel free to
call. I'll be happy to explain more about the system and you can then pass it
along. She'll probably stay with you for a long time if you save her a bunch
of money *and* teach her how to use what she has.
> Also, is there a way that I can determine if the system is connected to any
> home-automation devices? I do not want to replace the zone modules and
> panel, only to find later that one or more home-automation devices don't
> function.
The P9600 supports X10 directly, using a GEM-X10 kit. It also can be
connected to a PC running home automation software (HomeSeer, for example) via
the GEM-RS232 kit. If there's a GEM-RS232 kit in place, it will be easy to
spot. There will be a grey cable plugged into the 6-conductor port on the
fron of the main circuit board inside the panel.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>
Robert L Bass
"CH�IS" <s...@dy.ca> wrote in message news:PA%Vl.29434$Db2.6280@edtnps83...
> <cha...@shore.net> wrote in message...
>> The Zone modules I assume are Napco's 8-zone units. I have a copy of
>> the zone list, which lists 96 zones, a few of which are spares.
>>
>
> What is this... the White House? Unless by a "few spares" you mean 60, how
> many zones could one possibly use for a house. Really though, how big is
> this place?
I've done residential systems with more than 80 zones plenty of times.
> I would have a very close look at the system and make sure it'll work with
> the new panel. I'd especially be concerned about it's power requirements.
> It would be ridiculous not to homerun everything in the house to the main
> panel area.
There are many situations where home running every sensor is not the ideal
solution. Napco zone expansoion modules are designed to be located anywhere
along the databus.
> Although I don't know what the limit is for either of these panels as far as
> number of zones, I'm going to guess you've hit it or are getting close to
> it. You could also try panelguides.com if you don't have the Napco manuals.
Assuming it's a P9600, the system can handle up to 96 zones. There's also a
bigger brother, the X255 which can handle hundreds of zones.
> I just hope the wiring in the panels is all neatly laid out for you. Have
> fun :)
Agreed there. :^)
Robert L Bass
>
> Regardless of the number of zones, I can program the NX8E so that when
> she leaves the house, she simply pushes the EXIT key, arming the
> entire system. When she returns she enters her code.
The P9600 will do the same thing. If you call, I'll be happy to explain in
detail how to set it up. Also, if the master code is still in the panel
(printed label on the mnetal cover which protects the CMOS chip), you can use
Napco's Quickloader program to test, diagnose and service it. The software is
a free download. If you need help using it, I'd be happy to teach you. It
takes about 30 minutes to program a large system from top to bottom.
> At night she would push the STAY key, which would arm the system and
> automatically bypass one or more interior zones.
Napco can be programmed to arm using a single keypress. If no door is opened,
the system will arm in "stay" mode (no motion detection). If a door is opened
during the exit delay, the system arms normally.
> These two actions are what she finds easy to do. Does the Napco keypad
> offer the same features? Or does she need to perform additional procedure
> with the Napco pad?
She can do it with one keypress if she likes.
> Do installers typically mount the EZM8 modules in a closet, or under a
> window, etc., rather than home-running the 8 cables to the EZM8 mounted
> close to the 9600 panel?
They can be mounted anywhere along the databus. Precisely where varies from
installer to installer and from one premises to the next. There's a way to
make the EZM-8 modules beep so you can locate them.
CH®IS
news:sl1h25dgkt5abf77p...@4ax.com...
> There is an Altronix power supply adjacent to the panel. Don't know
> exactly how it is used.
>
Considering most of this isn't powered afterall, it may not be part of the
system (the CO's may change that though). Sprinklers, door bells, vacuum
system, etc.?
If it is, I would expect to have a wire from the power supply to each panel
(assuming the zones at that panel need power), supplying power to those
zones instead of the panel.
> Per the 96-zone printed list: Five zones of smoke and heat detectors;
> two sump pump zones, three motions; sixty-three windows; eight doors;
> eight CO detectors; seven spare zones.
>
That all makes sense right up until you mention 63 windows. Actually, the 2
sump pumps and the 8 CO's seem a little much too. I'm guessing this place
could be turned into a hotel if you really wanted to.
On second thought, 3 motions? Must have been a cat farm in there.
- Chris
CH®IS
>> Do installers typically mount the EZM8 modules in a closet, or under a
>> window, etc., rather than home-running the 8 cables to the EZM8 mounted
>> close to the 9600 panel?
>
> They can be mounted anywhere along the databus. Precisely where varies
> from installer to installer and from one premises to the next. There's a
> way to make the EZM-8 modules beep so you can locate them.
>
Now that is a nice feature. Hopefully others will do the same at some point
(DSC, pay attention). It's always fun to do a service call on a place
you've never been to with new owners who have no idea what an alarm panel is
other than that thing beeping by the door.
- Chris
cha...@shore.net
informative. I will re-visit the house, take a look around, and most
likely advise her to stay with the exisiting company, and suggest that
she call for another instructor for Keypad training.
I'm too old and near retirement to take on the learning curve for
Napco products. I've been in this business for forty-six years,
started when there were only ten companies in the Greater Boston area;
many interesting stories to tell, could write a book or two.
My favorite tale:
I'm sitting at my desk one morning in the 1970's, when one of
my employees comes up from the basement shop where he was building
control panels (yes, and many of these relay-based panels are still
out there doing thier job), stopped at my desk to inform me that he
was not feeling well and wanted to go home, that he thought he might
have the flu.
I reached into my top drawer for an oral thermometer, gave it
to him, and suggested that he place it in his mouth for awhile, and
come back in a few minutes to see if he has a temperature.
After about five minutes or so he returns to my desk with the
thermometer in his mouth. He passes the themometer to me; I read it.
107 degrees! "Peter," I said, "You're dead - and still walking! You
must have held this over the soldering iron, right?"
Charlie
Robert L Bass
>
> Now that is a nice feature. Hopefully others will do the same at some point
> (DSC, pay attention). It's always fun to do a service call on a place
> you've never been to with new owners who have no idea what an alarm panel is
> other than that thing beeping by the door.
Yep. I get a lot of calls from people whose alarms are "ringing" and they
have no idea how to operate them. Usually it's someone who bought a house
with an existing alarm. I ask them which control panel they have and almost
invariably they describe the keypad. Napco has had these features for many
years. I doubt DSC pays attention to anything other than what Tyco says.
Robert L Bass
>
> ...You must have held this over the soldering iron, right?"
Did that guy move to Hartford a few years later? He sounds awfully familiar.
:^)
Frank Olson
> "CH�IS" wrote:
>>
>> Now that is a nice feature. Hopefully others will do the same at some
>> point (DSC, pay attention). It's always fun to do a service call on a
>> place you've never been to with new owners who have no idea what an
>> alarm panel is other than that thing beeping by the door.
>
> Yep. I get a lot of calls from people whose alarms are "ringing" and
> they have no idea how to operate them. Usually it's someone who bought
> a house with an existing alarm. I ask them which control panel they
> have and almost invariably they describe the keypad. Napco has had
> these features for many years. I doubt DSC pays attention to anything
> other than what Tyco says.
>
Actually DSC remains one of the most feature rich alarm panels out there
when you compare similarly priced panels from other manufacturers. It's
a heck of a lot easier to program than Napco.
Robert L Bass
>
> Actually DSC remains one of the most feature rich alarm panels out there
> when you compare similarly priced panels from other manufacturers. It's a
> heck of a lot easier to program than Napco.
I kind of agree, but not entirely. I suspect it's mostly "easier" because you
use it more often than Napco. I've programmed so many Napco systems that I
can (and often do) walk a customer through programming a system without even
opening the program on my PC.
OTOH, the few DSC systems I ever programmed were so simple (there were less
options) that they could easily be configured from the keypad. Even after
many years working with Napco, I never program them from the keypad.
As to feature-richness, Napco has (I forget) 61 or 62 individually selectable
per-zone options. That's 2^^62 possible ways to configure each individual
zone. There are hundreds of options, selectable and adjustable features,
timers and so forth for the system as a whole. I don't believe DSC's
residential panels even come close.
cha...@shore.net
<Sa...@BassBurglarAlarms.com> wrote:
><chasbo> wrote:
>>
>> ...You must have held this over the soldering iron, right?"
>
>Did that guy move to Hartford a few years later? He sounds awfully familiar.
>:^)
No. He stayed in the Boston area; passed away several years late.
Jim
Yeah, I know what you mean.
I've known several people in my life that I thought had passed away
several years too late ..... also.
mleuck
wrote:
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>
> > Actually DSC remains one of the most feature rich alarm panels out there
> > when you compare similarly priced panels from other manufacturers. It's a
> > heck of a lot easier to program than Napco.
>
> I kind of agree, but not entirely. I suspect it's mostly "easier" because you
> use it more often than Napco. I've programmed so many Napco systems that I
> can (and often do) walk a customer through programming a system without even
> opening the program on my PC.
Well I've used both quite a bit and Frank is correct, DSC panels are
much easier to program than Napco....or Honeywel, or Moose, or FBII l
for that matter. Napco obviously recognizes this if you look at the
changes they made over the last few years concerning keypad
programming which is something that 90% of installers do. And last I
checked DSC didn't come with 2 different program manuals depending on
what keypad you have
> OTOH, the few DSC systems I ever programmed were so simple (there were less
> options) that they could easily be configured from the keypad. Even after
> many years working with Napco, I never program them from the keypad.
And in the time it takes for you to pull up Napco's software and
connect to the panel I'm out of DSC programming showing the customer
how the system works. In a typical installation most of the defaults
work just fine. DSC's download software is far quicker and easier to
use than Napco's (who still haven't figured out how to make a decent
interface), I'm sure your "team" is at the ready to fix that.
> As to feature-richness, Napco has (I forget) 61 or 62 individually selectable
> per-zone options. That's 2^^62 possible ways to configure each individual
> zone. There are hundreds of options, selectable and adjustable features,
> timers and so forth for the system as a whole. I don't believe DSC's
> residential panels even come close.
It sounds like you haven't played with DSC in a while. It helps to
play with the stuff instead of just listing it on the website
Robert L Bass
>
> I've known several people in my life that I thought had passed away several
> years too late ..... also.
Ouch! :^)
Robert L Bass
>
> Well I've used both quite a bit and Frank is correct, DSC panels are much
> easier to program than Napco...
Translation: DSC panels are simple and feature poor by comparison.
> ...keypad programming which is something that 90% of installers do.
Since I primarily sell to DIYers, that's not an issue for me.
> And last I checked DSC didn't come with 2 different program manuals
> depending on
what keypad you have...
Correct. Napco makes manuals for each of their keypads. The user manuals
describe how to operate what the system has in place rather than one generic
manual for all keypads like DSC.
> And in the time it takes for you to pull up Napco's software and connect to
> the panel I'm out of DSC programming...
Radio Shack panels were quick to "program" too. They also had almost no
features.
> showing the customer how the system works. In a typical installation most of
> the defaults work just fine. DSC's download software is far quicker and
> easier to use than Napco's (who still haven't figured out how to make a
> decent interface), I'm sure your "team" is at the ready to fix that.
Actually, DSC's software is among the slowest on the market. It's also a
royal pain getting around the GUI, which was apparently designed by a team of
monk... er, we won't go there. Napco's first attempt at Windows compatible
software was awful. In fact, we did discuss working on it with them. They
went there own way and, after a few tries, finally got it right.
> It sounds like you haven't played with DSC in a while...
I've dealt with DSC for a number of years. Their panels are simple to program
because they don't have the features many better models have. Feel free to
claim whatever makes you feel good regarding my experience. We both know the
truth, though you'll never admit it.
KingFish
"Robert L Bass" <Sa...@BassBurglarAlarms.com> wrote in message
news:eMednfMCgqpw2bPX...@giganews.com...
> "mleuck" wrote:
>>
>> Well I've used both quite a bit and Frank is correct, DSC panels are much
>> easier to program than Napco...
>
> Translation: DSC panels are simple and feature poor by comparison.
>
>> ...keypad programming which is something that 90% of installers do.
>
> Since I primarily sell to DIYers, that's not an issue for me.
so now you admit they don't install the systems you "sell" them? what are
they just after the insurance cert?
Frank Olson
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>>
>> Actually DSC remains one of the most feature rich alarm panels out
>> there when you compare similarly priced panels from other
>> manufacturers. It's a heck of a lot easier to program than Napco.
>
> I kind of agree, but not entirely. I suspect it's mostly "easier"
> because you use it more often than Napco. I've programmed so many Napco
> systems that I can (and often do) walk a customer through programming a
> system without even opening the program on my PC.
>
> OTOH, the few DSC systems I ever programmed were so simple (there were
> less options) that they could easily be configured from the keypad.
> Even after many years working with Napco, I never program them from the
> keypad.
>
> As to feature-richness, Napco has (I forget) 61 or 62 individually
> selectable per-zone options. That's 2^^62 possible ways to configure
> each individual zone. There are hundreds of options, selectable and
> adjustable features, timers and so forth for the system as a whole. I
> don't believe DSC's residential panels even come close.
>
I wasn't referring to things like zoning options, Robert. The end-user
rarely sees these and most wouldn't understand what they are. Ademco's
highest end system (the Vista 250) still doesn't have telephone line
monitoring. This has been a "standard feature" on DSC panels from the
start (the only exceptions being the early "1000" and the "1500"). All
of their panels had "chime", bell supervision, and "quick keys". For
the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered (and
sometimes more). If you take a look at the zone options menu, you can
program a number of features now that you couldn't do before. They
remain one of the easiest systems to keypad program which probably
accounts for their popularity.
Jim
As is known here, I use Napco. Through the years I've occasioally
attended DSC seminars and had to reprogram DSC panels. What I've found
is that the ones that I've run accross and have been demonstrated to
me at the seminars don't do everything that the Napco panels do.
That's not to say that one always needs to do everything that Napco
does .... either. But, if I have the choice, I'd rather have as many
options at hand as possible in the panel I'm installing, Also, Napco
has a number of panels of lesser capability that certainly must have a
market too.
As far as ease of programing, I've been programing Napco panels for so
long that it doesn't present a problem .... to me. When it's explained
to someone how to do it, it's a logical way and anyone that I've
taught how to do it, doesn't have a problem with their programing.
It's all in the understanding of what the method is. Just like any
other panel, I guess there are some out there who have a problem with
it. I don't and never did. I just took the time to learn and
understand it.
So ... for me, it's not the programing ease or not, that makes me
avoid DSC. The total options available could be overlooked because, as
I say, one doesn't use all the option the higher end Napcos have
anyway, but to me it's the cheapness in the quality of the DSC
producst that bothers me. Everything is so flimsey. Every thing is
made out of tissue paper. Metal, plastic, PC boards. Much too
delicate. Their flat transmitters .... if you open them more than 3 or
4 times, the case is ruined. You have to bend the cabinet doors so
they'll fit on the box. You put a little pressure on the screw
terminals and the PC board bends like it's about to crack.
I'm used to the panel I've been using for so many years so obviously,
I'm in no market to change but if I were, even though I don't like
Ademco/Honeywell documentation, I'd go with them as second choice, not
with DSC. As far as programing any panel. To me, someone looking to
change panel mfg should not let ease of programing take precedent over
what the panel can do and it's quality. One can always learn how to
program their panel of choice. It's just a matter of practice.
Whenever Napco has come out with a new panel or downloader program, I
take an entire day off ..... set it up on the bench and spend the
entire day programing and writing down questions that I have to ask
tech support .... in order to understand it. Trying to do it out in
the field is not the thing to do. After that ... it's just practice,
practice practice.
Those that are not willing to learn about what they do for a
living .....in order to obtain quality and more options, that's their
problem. I guess DSC programing appeals to those that fall into that
category.
And I can appriciate that too. I just ran across a guy who's been
using Napco for about twenty years. I was talking about obtaining
signal strength for wireless transmitters when installing a system. He
asked ..... "How do you do that?" I don't know if I siged and rolled
my eyes in my mind or on the outside, but I told him to read the
f.....g instructions.
Now that's my idea of a primary candidate as a DSC user.
Robert L Bass
>
> I wasn't referring to things like zoning options, Robert. The end-user
We partly agree. He may not see them but he certainly benefits from them when
they're used right. Our job is to provide a system with the features that
best meet the client's needs. He doesn't care about features -- just that the
system "does what he wants". For example, Napco has auto bypass and auto
re-arm. With these two (individually selectable) options you can make it very
easy to arm the overhead door without leaving a lengthy delay for the family
to exit.
Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch. I have
clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid doesn't forget to
arm the system when they leave. Napco allows me to auto-arm after a certain
time of day *if* there hasn't been any motion for xx hours. That's not a
"standard" feature but it can be done through a few programming tricks.
Remember when I told you about the Orthodox Jewish homes I protected in CT?
They needed a system that would not cause motion detector LEDs or relays to
trip during holiday periods and weekly Shabos hours. With Napco I can disarm
the system, power down the motion and glass break detectors, re-arm the system
without the interior detection and, in the morning, bypass the "Shabos door"
for a specific time slot so the family can leave for the synagogue. At the
end of Shabos (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe detectors and, if needed
re-arm the system. Try doing any of that with a DSC system.
> Ademco's highest end system (the Vista 250) still doesn't have telephone
> line monitoring...
Napco offers it.
> This has been a "standard feature" on DSC panels from the start (the only
> exceptions being the early "1000" and the "1500"). All of their panels had
> "chime", bell supervision, and "quick keys"...
Napco too. Also, most Napco systems are partitionable. Any keypad can view
and operate its "home" partition and/or every other partition, individually or
en masse.
> For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered (and
> sometimes more)...
Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the price or the
features.
> If you take a look at the zone options menu, you can program a number of
> features now that you couldn't do before. They remain one of the easiest
> systems to keypad program which probably accounts for their popularity.
They are easy but that is mainly because they have far less options from which
to select.
Robert L Bass
>
> As is known here, I use Napco. Through the years I've occasioally attended
> DSC seminars and had to reprogram DSC panels. What I've found is that the
> ones that I've run accross and have been demonstrated to me at the seminars
> don't do everything that the Napco panels do. That's not to say that one
> always needs to do everything that Napco does .... either. But, if I have
> the choice, I'd rather have as many options at hand as possible in the panel
> I'm installing, Also, Napco has a number of panels of lesser capability
> that certainly must have a market too.
Absolutely agree, especially about having the options. It's generally better
to have it and not need it than the other way around.
> As far as ease of programing, I've been programing Napco panels for so long
> that it doesn't present a problem .... to me. When it's explained to someone
> how to do it, it's a logical way and anyone that I've taught how to do it,
> doesn't have a problem with their programing. It's all in the understanding
> of what the method is. Just like any other panel, I guess there are some out
> there who have a problem with it. I don't and never did. I just took the
> time to learn and understand it.
Same here. Years ago when Napco first came out with the MA-3000 I took the
2-day (or was it 3?) seminar up in Massachussetts. A couple of techs there
didn't seem to grast it but all the rest had no problem at all. Like
an6ything else, once you've done it a few thousand times it's a piece of cake
doing it again or teaching others to do it themselves. Since that is at the
core of my business model, Napco's software is a major plus for me.
> So ... for me, it's not the programing ease or not, that makes me avoid DSC.
> The total options available could be overlooked because, as I say, one
> doesn't use all the option the higher end Napcos have anyway, but to me it's
> the cheapness in the quality of the DSC producst that bothers me...
Yep, that too. When even the cabinets are kind of flimsy, the rest just seems
to be low budget as well.
> I'm used to the panel I've been using for so many years so obviously, I'm in
> no market to change but if I were, even though I don't like Ademco/Honeywell
> documentation, I'd go with them as second choice, not with DSC. As far as
> programing any panel. To me, someone looking to change panel mfg should not
> let ease of programing take precedent over what the panel can do and it's
> quality. One can always learn how to program their panel of choice. It's
> just a matter of practice.
That's true for most techs but for me the programming app is very important.
I teach people to use the stuff almost every day so I want an app that's easy
to master. Napco's current version of Quickloader (IMO) definitely fills that
bell.
> Those that are not willing to learn about what they do for a living .....in
> order to obtain quality and more options, that's their
problem. I guess DSC programing appeals to those that fall into that category.
I don't think that's fair, Jim. Some folks get used to DSC (as we are to
Napco) and simply continue using it in the belief that it's the best choice
for their business or (one hopes) for their customers.
> And I can appriciate that too. I just ran across a guy who's been using
> Napco for about twenty years. I was talking about obtaining signal strength
> for wireless transmitters when installing a system. He asked ..... "How do
> you do that?" I don't know if I siged and rolled my eyes in my mind or on
> the outside, but I told him to read the f.....g instructions. Now that's
> my idea of a primary candidate as a DSC user.
Naah. He'd just bush that up, too.
mleuck
wrote:
> "mleuck" wrote:
>
> > Well I've used both quite a bit and Frank is correct, DSC panels are much
> > easier to program than Napco...
>
> Translation: DSC panels are simple and feature poor by comparison.
Alternate Translation: Napco panels are harder to keypad program than
they need to be
> > ...keypad programming which is something that 90% of installers do.
>
> Since I primarily sell to DIYers, that's not an issue for me.
Thats too bad since any installer worth his salt should know how to do
that, it's also why Frank stated they were easier to program than
Napco
> > And last I checked DSC didn't come with 2 different program manuals
> > depending on
>
> what keypad you have...
>
> Correct. Napco makes manuals for each of their keypads. The user manuals
> describe how to operate what the system has in place rather than one generic
> manual for all keypads like DSC.
I mentioned program manuals not user.
> > And in the time it takes for you to pull up Napco's software and connect to
> > the panel I'm out of DSC programming...
>
> Radio Shack panels were quick to "program" too. They also had almost no
> features.
True but that has nothing to do with DSC
> > showing the customer how the system works. In a typical installation most of
> > the defaults work just fine. DSC's download software is far quicker and
> > easier to use than Napco's (who still haven't figured out how to make a
> > decent interface), I'm sure your "team" is at the ready to fix that.
>
> Actually, DSC's software is among the slowest on the market. It's also a
> royal pain getting around the GUI, which was apparently designed by a team of
> monk... er, we won't go there. Napco's first attempt at Windows compatible
> software was awful. In fact, we did discuss working on it with them. They
> went there own way and, after a few tries, finally got it right.
Napco's software is slightly better than it was initially however that
isn't saying much, as far as being slow you obviously haven't compared
the two software packages.
or timed how long it takes to connect to a Napco panel initially
or how slow it is to upload or download a full panel
or the fact you have to either keep the phone off the hook or invest
in a stupid phone module
or the fact you can't download while the panel is armed
or how the interface doesn't seem to handle resizing a window very
well
or how they still haven't integrated past panels like the 2600 or
1010LKDL.
> > It sounds like you haven't played with DSC in a while...
>
> I've dealt with DSC for a number of years. Their panels are simple to program
> because they don't have the features many better models have. Feel free to
> claim whatever makes you feel good regarding my experience. We both know the
> truth, though you'll never admit it.
Um yea it sounds like you really know a lot
mleuck
It's too bad that supposed zillion zone features of Napco doesn't
extend to reporting, here's something fun to do, try getting a Napco
GEM P-whatever to send water, freeze or sprinkler alarms in Contact ID
or SIA, something DSC has been able to do since 1994 with their Power
series. And that's only using existing zone types, with programmed
Contact ID codes I can send almost every other alarm available.
Napco is stuck with 8 events
mleuck
> So ... for me, it's not the programing ease or not, that makes me
> avoid DSC. The total options available could be overlooked because, as
> I say, one doesn't use all the option the higher end Napcos have
> anyway, but to me it's the cheapness in the quality of the DSC
> producst that bothers me. Everything is so flimsey. Every thing is
> made out of tissue paper. Metal, plastic, PC boards. Much too
> delicate. Their flat transmitters .... if you open them more than 3 or
> 4 times, the case is ruined. You have to bend the cabinet doors so
> they'll fit on the box. You put a little pressure on the screw
> terminals and the PC board bends like it's about to crack.
Umm okay, never seen any of that before, a circuit board is pretty
much a circuit board and I've yet to see a sensor cover break, maybe
you have big monkey hands or something.
mleuck
wrote:
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>
> > Ademco's highest end system (the Vista 250) still doesn't have telephone
> > line monitoring...
>
> Napco offers it.
So did DSC Power series back when Napco was doing the MA series that
didn't
> > This has been a "standard feature" on DSC panels from the start (the only
> > exceptions being the early "1000" and the "1500"). All of their panels had
> > "chime", bell supervision, and "quick keys"...
>
> Napco too. Also, most Napco systems are partitionable. Any keypad can view
> and operate its "home" partition and/or every other partition, individually or
> en masse.
Something DSC has been doing since umm 1990 with the PC4000, 1994 with
the 832 power series
> > For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered (and
> > sometimes more)...
>
> Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the price or the
> features.
You obviously haven't priced a PC1616 lately
> > If you take a look at the zone options menu, you can program a number of
> > features now that you couldn't do before. They remain one of the easiest
> > systems to keypad program which probably accounts for their popularity.
>
> They are easy but that is mainly because they have far less options from which
> to select.
Like CID or SIA reporting? Hey try sending a refrigeration, foil
break, high or low temp, loss of Air Flow, CO2, Pump Activated, low
water level, pump failure and 20 other CID signals with any Napco
panel
Something DSC has been doing for 15+ years on even the budget systems.
Frank Olson
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>>
>> I wasn't referring to things like zoning options, Robert. The
>> end-user rarely sees these and most wouldn't understand what they are...
>
> We partly agree. He may not see them but he certainly benefits from
> them when they're used right. Our job is to provide a system with the
> features that best meet the client's needs.
Exactly... So far (thankfully) none of my clients have "special needs".
> He doesn't care about
> features -- just that the system "does what he wants". For example,
> Napco has auto bypass and auto re-arm. With these two (individually
> selectable) options you can make it very easy to arm the overhead door
> without leaving a lengthy delay for the family to exit.
Yep... and in those instances where a client needs that, I've sold them
on the "escort". Just dial the panel on any cell phone and you can turn
on lights, bypass zones, arm the interior...
>
> Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch. I
> have clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid
> doesn't forget to arm the system when they leave. Napco allows me to
> auto-arm after a certain time of day *if* there hasn't been any motion
> for xx hours. That's not a "standard" feature but it can be done
> through a few programming tricks.
Then why mention it??? "Out of the box" features are the topic of this
discussion. I could more than likely auto arm a DSC system following
those same parameters (and with appropriate "option" modules), but why
bother? If a client is so concerned about whether-or-not the maid
remembers to arm the system when she leaves, why not provide them with
an Escort module which would allow them to call the system and perform
all the necessary functions. In this instance, I don't think it would
be in the clients best interests to trust the system to "arm" itself
anyway. Would you??
> Remember when I told you about the
> Orthodox Jewish homes I protected in CT? They needed a system that would
> not cause motion detector LEDs or relays to trip during holiday periods
> and weekly Shabos hours. With Napco I can disarm the system, power down
> the motion and glass break detectors, re-arm the system without the
> interior detection and, in the morning, bypass the "Shabos door" for a
> specific time slot so the family can leave for the synagogue. At the
> end of Shabos (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe detectors and, if
> needed re-arm the system. Try doing any of that with a DSC system.
Is that a challenge?? :-) Napco can't do all those things "out of the
box". You'll need to program a lot of relays. DSC's 1864 has four
programmable outputs "on board". If you add the supervised power supply
(something I think you'll need with the size of the systems you're
talking about), you'll get another four on top of that. The 1864 has
event timers as well. I don't think it would be all that difficult for
me to set up a DSC system with the same parameters as your Napco stuff.
>
>> Ademco's highest end system (the Vista 250) still doesn't have
>> telephone line monitoring...
>
> Napco offers it.
Yes... but Napco's significantly more expensive (and harder to keypad
program).
>
>> This has been a "standard feature" on DSC panels from the start (the
>> only exceptions being the early "1000" and the "1500"). All of their
>> panels had "chime", bell supervision, and "quick keys"...
>
> Napco too. Also, most Napco systems are partitionable. Any keypad can
> view and operate its "home" partition and/or every other partition,
> individually or en masse.
Ditto with DSC. Up to eight partitions.
>
>> For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered
>> (and sometimes more)...
>
> Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the price
> or the features.
I beg to differ. Napco is significantly more expensive here (in Canada).
>
>> If you take a look at the zone options menu, you can program a number
>> of features now that you couldn't do before. They remain one of the
>> easiest systems to keypad program which probably accounts for their
>> popularity.
>
> They are easy but that is mainly because they have far less options from
> which to select.
>
And I haven't needed extra options... For those clients that do, I'd
prefer Ademco's products over Napco's.
Frank Olson
> Like CID or SIA reporting? Hey try sending a refrigeration, foil
> break, high or low temp, loss of Air Flow, CO2, Pump Activated, low
> water level, pump failure and 20 other CID signals with any Napco
> panel
>
> Something DSC has been doing for 15+ years on even the budget systems.
DSC has "budget systems"???? Oh... You must mean "Paradox"! <Sorry,
Bob... I just couldn't let the opportunity pass!> ;-)
Jim
wrote:
>
> Naah. �He'd just bush that up, too.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
Now THIS is what you deny doing!
This last time there was a "discussion" here about who started ....
what .... regarding political refrences, you denied starting any of
it. I knew that you had, but didn't say anything.
HERE is a prime example of instigating trouble. It's got to be
obvious to you that these types of digs and references are things that
should be avoided ...... I'm sure you'll agree.
Except for a few ....... everyone has been doing pretty good compared
to what it was here. It would be nice to keep it that way.
Robert L Bass
>
>> Naah. He'd just bush that up, too.
>
Nope. It's true. I said it. That's just my way of kidding around. It's not
meant to belittle you or anyone else here and I wish you wouldn't take it that
way. When some of the right-wingers make cracks about Obama (aka His
Holiness:)), I laugh and often wise crack right back but it's not personal.
Lighten up, Jim. We can disagree (even openly) about politics without getting
pissed off at each other.
Regards,
Robert
Robert L Bass
>
> Alternate Translation: Napco panels are harder to keypad program than they
> need to be
Accurate translation: Napco panels are more powerful and feature rich than
the stuff you like.
>> Since I primarily sell to DIYers, that's not an issue for me.
> Thats too bad since any installer worth his salt should know how to do
> that...
I make no claims about the worth of any other installer. If you find it
difficult to program Napco that is of no concern to me. All I care is that
their systems are so much better quality than DSC and that my clients are able
to program them without years of experience.
> it's also why Frank stated they were easier to program than Napco
That says nothing regarding value received by the client -- only that DSC is
simple to program.
> I mentioned program manuals not user.
Sorry, I didn't realize that was your intent. The answer, however, remains
the same. Napco manuals are specific to the products being used -- not
generic like DSC.
>>> And in the time it takes for you to pull up Napco's software and connect
>>> to the panel I'm out of DSC programming...
>>
>> Radio Shack panels were quick to "program" too. They also had almost no
>> features.
> True but that has nothing to do with DSC
It is the logical extension of your argument that simpler (that is feature
poor) is somehow better.
> Napco's software is slightly better than it was initially however that isn't
> saying much, as far as being slow you obviously haven't compared the two
> software packages.
You're wrong on both counts. Napco's current software is significantly better
than their first Windows app, which was plain awful. The new app is easy to
navigate, doesn't lock up unless you really screw things up and has far better
helps. It's still not perfect but that's only because my company didn't write
it. :^)
As to comparing, you're wrong again. I have and DSC's app is miserably slow.
There are other little bugs in DSC, such as CS comms failures if you leave the
pigtail plugged into the PC.
> or timed how long it takes to connect to a Napco panel initially...
My clients invariably use local connect. It takes less than 10 seconds to
connect and download. Even in local connect DSC takes a long time.
> or how slow it is to upload or download a full panel...
A few seconds, even on a P9600. Try that on the larger DSC.
> or the fact you have to either keep the phone off the hook or invest in a
> stupid phone module...
Oh, no. Keep the phone off the hook. How difficult! :^) Of course, that's
only if you're accessing the panel remotely. Any decent alarm company
supplies its techs with laptops to expedite field service. We did.
> or the fact you can't download while the panel is armed...
You can indeed. Napco allows you to fully control the panel via the software.
If it's armed, disarm it and then do the work. Don't forget to re-arm the
system when you're done.
> or how the interface doesn't seem to handle resizing a window very well
You must not have tried it recently. It works fine. However, all of the
pop-up windows are already properly sized. Whenever I use the software (more
than once a day usually), I run the app in full screen.
> or how they still haven't integrated past panels like the 2600 or 1010LKDL.
They don't support antique stuff any more.
>>> It sounds like you haven't played with DSC in a while...
>
>> I've dealt with DSC for a number of years. Their panels are simple to
>> program because they don't have the features many better models have. Feel
>> free to claim whatever makes you feel good regarding my experience. We both
>> know the truth, though you'll never admit it.
> Um yea it sounds like you really know a lot
If it makes you feel better to believe you know more than me, feel free to
continue.
Robert L Bass
>
> It's too bad that supposed zillion zone features of Napco doesn't extend to
> reporting, here's something fun to do, try getting a Napco GEM P-whatever to
Piece of cake. Send FIRE fore zone xx. Tell the CS that zone xx is
"sprinkler". Any decent CS has the ability to detail what's connected to each
individual zone. I have no idea what Monitronix does but even the small CS I
ran for many years could do that. If you're having trouble, feel free to call
and I'll explain how it's done. :^)
Robert L Bass
>
> Umm okay, never seen any of that before, a circuit board is pretty much a
> circuit board and I've yet to see a sensor cover break, maybe you have big
> monkey hands or something.
Umm no. A circuit board can be made of flimsy (read "cheap") stuff or it can
be better quality material. DSC's boards, their cabinets and pretty much
everything they make is just plain flimsy.
KingFish
"Robert L Bass" <Sa...@BassBurglarAlarms.com> wrote in message
news:sYWdnV4ZdMM2-KzX...@giganews.com...
you want to talk politics take it to the political group, before you barack
this group up again like you had it before you went in the hospital.
mleuck
wrote:
> "mleuck" wrote:
>
> > It's too bad that supposed zillion zone features of Napco doesn't extend to
> > reporting, here's something fun to do, try getting a Napco GEM P-whatever to
> > send water, freeze or sprinkler alarms in Contact ID or SIA...
>
> Piece of cake. Send FIRE fore zone xx. Tell the CS that zone xx is
> "sprinkler". Any decent CS has the ability to detail what's connected to each
> individual zone. I have no idea what Monitronix does but even the small CS I
> ran for many years could do that. If you're having trouble, feel free to call
> and I'll explain how it's done. :^)
Seems a rather crude way to do it since just about every other brand
can send it properly.
Robert L Bass
>
> Yep... and in those instances where a client needs that, I've sold them on
Unfortunately, that would be useless to these clients. They can't operate
electronic equipment, including phones during Shabos or certain holy days.
> Just dial the panel on any cell phone and you can turn on lights, bypass
> zones, arm the interior...
>
>
>>
>> Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch. I have
>> clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid doesn't forget
>> to arm the system when they leave. Napco allows me to auto-arm after a
>> certain time of day *if* there hasn't been any motion for xx hours. That's
>> not a "standard" feature but it can be done through a few programming
>> tricks.
>
> Then why mention it??? "Out of the box" features are the topic of this
> discussion...
When did we definew the topic so narrowly? In any case, this is "out of the
box" No special hardware is needed -- just knowledge of ways to use the
stuff.
> I could more than likely auto arm a DSC system following those same
> parameters (and with appropriate "option" modules), but why bother?
I doubt you could do it with DSC modules but in answer to the "why bother"
question, it was done because that is what the clients needed.
> If a client is so concerned about whether-or-not the maid remembers to arm
> the system when she leaves, why not provide them with an Escort module which
> would allow them to call the system and perform all the necessary functions.
Although Napco's Wizard IIe will also perform remote control the functions of
the Escort, there's a good reason to automate it. Most clients don't want to
have to access their systems remotely every time the maid leaves "just to be
sure". They want to have their protection with the least amount of hassle.
Since Napco provides easy ways to do these things and so much more than
cheap-o competitors, I prefer their stuff.
> In this instance, I don't think it would be in the clients best interests to
> trust the system to "arm" itself anyway. Would you??
The system can be made more reliable than the maid's or even the client's own
memory. We had commercial accounts that paid us extra for "supervised"
opening and closing protection. For the benefit of others who may not know,
that means not just sending reports but responding if a system isn't armed by
the client's designated time each night. By programming the systems to
auto-arm we could be certain the system would be armed. The backup, of
course, was that our CS software would notify our operator if for any reason
the system did not arm. This meant far fewer late night calls to rouse a
sleepy client to go down to arm his store or office system. We could also
remotely arm using Napco's software but auto-arming saved the client money and
enhanced the value of services we provided.
>> Remember when I told you about the Orthodox Jewish homes I protected in CT?
>> They needed a system that would not cause motion detector LEDs or relays to
>> trip during holiday periods and weekly Shabos hours. With Napco I can
>> disarm the system, power down the motion and glass break detectors, re-arm
>> the system without the interior detection and, in the morning, bypass the
>> "Shabos door" for a specific time slot so the family can leave for the
>> synagogue. At the end of Shabos (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe
>> detectors and, if needed re-arm the system. Try doing any of that with a
>> DSC system.
>
> Is that a challenge?? :-)
Perhaps. :^)
> Napco can't do all those things "out of the box".
Sure it can. You just need to program the system properly. Systems which
controlled power used a standard Napco module, the RB3008. In many Orthodox
homes the clients chose not to even use motion or glass break detectors. For
those apps not even the RB3008 was needed. However, DSC couldn't do this with
or without any DSC modules.
> You'll need to program a lot of relays. DSC's 1864 has four programmable
> outputs "on board".
Try programming those relays to fire every Friday at 4:45 pm and release every
Saturday at 6:30 pm or some such time, if and only if the system is disarmed.
Try getting DSC to disarm, power down motions, re-arm while auto-bypassing
those motion detectors and then "undo" the same sequence at the end of a 2- or
3-day holiday. It just can't be done using DSC hardware.
> If you add the supervised power supply (something I think you'll need with
> the size of the systems you're talking about), you'll get another four on
> top of that.
Napco has enough power to do it without adding the power supply. However, in
cases where it is needed, they make a very powerful add-on unit.
> The 1864 has event timers as well.
Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific things on
the first Friday of a given month. Others needed things done on the *last*
Wednesday, etc. Try programming that with DSC.
> I don't think it would be all that difficult for me to set up a DSC system
> with the same parameters as your Napco stuff.
OK, consider this a challenge then. You can do it "virtually" (no hardware
purchase required). Just tell me which DSC modules you would use and how you
would program the DSC system to do what I've described. Oh, by the way, we
also had to perform a little extra service several times a year. Because
sunset changes a little every day, we had to make the schedules flexible.
Several times a year we would change the start times of each sequence. At the
beginning of each year we would enter that year's Yom Tov dates. The Jewish
calendar is different from Ours so the dates of important holidays change each
year, just like Easter (Passover) does for Christians.
> Yes... but Napco's significantly more expensive (and harder to keypad
> program).
Napco's low end panels, which are equivalent to DSC's mid-range stuff, compete
well price-wise. As I mentioned earlier, this whole keypad programming thing
is a non-issue for me since I teach DIYers to use the software. I've rarely
run across anyone who couldn't use Napco's software with a few minutes of
phone support.
> Ditto with DSC. Up to eight partitions.
Same with Napco, except setting up the partitioning is a snap.
>>> For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered (and
>>> sometimes more)...
>>
>> Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the price or
>> the features.
>
> I beg to differ. Napco is significantly more expensive here (in Canada).
No need to beg. I have no idea what dealers pay for Napco in Canada. I know
what I sell it for and we get a few Canadian orders every so often. I try to
discourage it though, as it's a PITA dealing with UPS' cross-border rip-of...
er, policies.
> And I haven't needed extra options... For those clients that do, I'd prefer
> Ademco's products over Napco's.
I suspect that's mainly because you have more experience with Honeywell (nee:
Ademco) than with Napco. As I said to Jim, a lot of "preference" is what
we've become accustomed to using. I realize that applies to me as well.
Frank Olson
> "mleuck" wrote:
>>
>> Umm okay, never seen any of that before, a circuit board is pretty
>> much a circuit board and I've yet to see a sensor cover break, maybe
>> you have big monkey hands or something.
>
> Umm no. A circuit board can be made of flimsy (read "cheap") stuff or
> it can be better quality material. DSC's boards, their cabinets and
> pretty much everything they make is just plain flimsy.
>
OK... I'm no fan of DSC, but a lot of our clients use the product.
Their cans are pretty standard (read *not* flimsy) and the circuit
boards are pretty standard too. In fact, I seriously doubt they're
using anything more (or less) "flimsy" than anyone else is using.
You have a predelection for Napco. That's well and good. Our customers
certainly wouldn't recognize the difference between the zone "options"
available on a Napco panel and the ones on a DSC, Paradox, or Ademco
system. They're all far less sophisticated than the run of the mill
DIYer you often tell us that you deal with. What my customers want is a
system that's easy to arm and disarm. When it doesn't "arm" they want
to know why, so a keypad display that references "open" zones is much
appreciated. DSC and Paradox are both really easy to "arm" and
"disarm". They're also really easy to teach other end-users to use.
People like simple things, Robert. And most of the installers I've
spoken with over the years prefer being able to set up a panel quickly
and with minimal "fuss". I prefer to keypad program and most systems I
set up don't "depart" much from the standard panel defaults. I use the
laptop for fire alarm systems most of which are a good deal more complex
to program than the "average" home alarm system.
I can see that this thread has the potential to degenerate to a level
that I personally don't want to see again. I'll concede that Napco is
the superior product in every respect but one, and that's "price".
Let's leave it at that.
Frank Olson
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>>
>> Yep... and in those instances where a client needs that, I've sold
>> them on the "escort"...
>
> Unfortunately, that would be useless to these clients. They can't
> operate electronic equipment, including phones during Shabos or certain
> holy days.
That's a great pity. For a "faith" to restrict an individual to this
extent is (at least for me) the point at which I would ask... WHY? I
wouldn't make a very good Orthodox Jew. :-)
>
>> Just dial the panel on any cell phone and you can turn on lights,
>> bypass zones, arm the interior...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch. I
>>> have clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid
>>> doesn't forget to arm the system when they leave. Napco allows me to
>>> auto-arm after a certain time of day *if* there hasn't been any
>>> motion for xx hours. That's not a "standard" feature but it can be
>>> done through a few programming tricks.
>>
>> Then why mention it??? "Out of the box" features are the topic of
>> this discussion...
>
> When did we definew the topic so narrowly? In any case, this is "out of
> the box" No special hardware is needed -- just knowledge of ways to use
> the stuff.
That's well and good. But knowledge is only one aspect. Application is
the other. I'd prefer to leave Orthodox Jewish people to members of
their own community (that actually UNDERSTAND their concerns). I don't
need to pursue them as clients. I have much bigger fish to fry.
>
>> I could more than likely auto arm a DSC system following those same
>> parameters (and with appropriate "option" modules), but why bother?
>
> I doubt you could do it with DSC modules but in answer to the "why
> bother" question, it was done because that is what the clients needed.
I don't need that kind of "client".
>
>> If a client is so concerned about whether-or-not the maid remembers to
>> arm the system when she leaves, why not provide them with an Escort
>> module which would allow them to call the system and perform all the
>> necessary functions.
>
> Although Napco's Wizard IIe will also perform remote control the
> functions of the Escort, there's a good reason to automate it. Most
> clients don't want to have to access their systems remotely every time
> the maid leaves "just to be sure". They want to have their protection
> with the least amount of hassle. Since Napco provides easy ways to do
> these things and so much more than cheap-o competitors, I prefer their
> stuff.
Good!!! More power to you!!
>
>> In this instance, I don't think it would be in the clients best
>> interests to trust the system to "arm" itself anyway. Would you??
>
> The system can be made more reliable than the maid's or even the
> client's own memory. We had commercial accounts that paid us extra for
> "supervised" opening and closing protection. For the benefit of others
> who may not know, that means not just sending reports but responding if
> a system isn't armed by the client's designated time each night. By
> programming the systems to auto-arm we could be certain the system would
> be armed. The backup, of course, was that our CS software would notify
> our operator if for any reason the system did not arm. This meant far
> fewer late night calls to rouse a sleepy client to go down to arm his
> store or office system. We could also remotely arm using Napco's
> software but auto-arming saved the client money and enhanced the value
> of services we provided.
Auto arming is a standard feature in most alarm systems (even the
"cheapo" DSC stuff). And what you were providing here is nothing less
than what others in the industry do as well.
>
>>> Remember when I told you about the Orthodox Jewish homes I protected
>>> in CT? They needed a system that would not cause motion detector LEDs
>>> or relays to trip during holiday periods and weekly Shabos hours.
>>> With Napco I can disarm the system, power down the motion and glass
>>> break detectors, re-arm the system without the interior detection
>>> and, in the morning, bypass the "Shabos door" for a specific time
>>> slot so the family can leave for the synagogue. At the end of Shabos
>>> (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe detectors and, if needed re-arm
>>> the system. Try doing any of that with a DSC system.
>>
>> Is that a challenge?? :-)
>
> Perhaps. :^)
>
>> Napco can't do all those things "out of the box".
>
> Sure it can. You just need to program the system properly. Systems
> which controlled power used a standard Napco module, the RB3008.
You've already gone "beyond the box".
> In
> many Orthodox homes the clients chose not to even use motion or glass
> break detectors. For those apps not even the RB3008 was needed.
> However, DSC couldn't do this with or without any DSC modules.
You're talking about disarming and re-arming a system that only employed
contact type devices (no motion or glass break detectors). I'm not sure
how you imagine an "out of the box" DSC system couldn't do this.
>
>> You'll need to program a lot of relays. DSC's 1864 has four
>> programmable outputs "on board".
>
> Try programming those relays to fire every Friday at 4:45 pm and release
> every Saturday at 6:30 pm or some such time, if and only if the system
> is disarmed. Try getting DSC to disarm, power down motions, re-arm while
> auto-bypassing those motion detectors and then "undo" the same sequence
> at the end of a 2- or 3-day holiday. It just can't be done using DSC
> hardware.
It can't be done with Napco's panels "out of the box either". You'll
need additonal modules and relays.
>
>> If you add the supervised power supply (something I think you'll need
>> with the size of the systems you're talking about), you'll get another
>> four on top of that.
>
> Napco has enough power to do it without adding the power supply.
I couldn't comment because I haven't seen a calculation for one of these
Shabos systems.
> However, in cases where it is needed, they make a very powerful add-on
> unit.
As does DSC.
>
>> The 1864 has event timers as well.
>
> Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific
> things on the first Friday of a given month. Others needed things done
> on the *last* Wednesday, etc. Try programming that with DSC.
DBD (difficult but doable). Again... It's not something I would want
to get into in the first place. The kind of clients that need this
level of "hand holding" I'd refer to Bob C.
>
>> I don't think it would be all that difficult for me to set up a DSC
>> system with the same parameters as your Napco stuff.
>
> OK, consider this a challenge then. You can do it "virtually" (no
> hardware purchase required). Just tell me which DSC modules you would
> use and how you would program the DSC system to do what I've described.
> Oh, by the way, we also had to perform a little extra service several
> times a year. Because sunset changes a little every day, we had to make
> the schedules flexible. Several times a year we would change the start
> times of each sequence. At the beginning of each year we would enter
> that year's Yom Tov dates. The Jewish calendar is different from Ours
> so the dates of important holidays change each year, just like Easter
> (Passover) does for Christians.
Changing holiday dates is something you can download with most panels
(including DSC's). As for providing an equipment list... I'd need you
to post the client's exact requirements first. I've forgotten most of
what you had posted here a couple of years ago. Also... If you find
that I can program a DSC system to operate EXACTLY the way your most
finicky client required, then we're going to have to set a "reward".
Mine will include a $100.00 donation to the United Way. Yours...???
>
>> Yes... but Napco's significantly more expensive (and harder to keypad
>> program).
>
> Napco's low end panels, which are equivalent to DSC's mid-range stuff,
> compete well price-wise. As I mentioned earlier, this whole keypad
> programming thing is a non-issue for me since I teach DIYers to use the
> software. I've rarely run across anyone who couldn't use Napco's
> software with a few minutes of phone support.
DSC doesn't have "mid range stuff". It's all "cheap". :-)
>
>> Ditto with DSC. Up to eight partitions.
>
> Same with Napco, except setting up the partitioning is a snap.
So is DSC...
>
>>>> For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered
>>>> (and sometimes more)...
>>>
>>> Compared to Honeywell, true. But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the
>>> price or the features.
>>
>> I beg to differ. Napco is significantly more expensive here (in Canada).
>
> No need to beg. I have no idea what dealers pay for Napco in Canada. I
> know what I sell it for and we get a few Canadian orders every so
> often. I try to discourage it though, as it's a PITA dealing with UPS'
> cross-border rip-of... er, policies.
These days with the exchange rate being what it is, it's cheaper to buy DSC.
>
>> And I haven't needed extra options... For those clients that do, I'd
>> prefer Ademco's products over Napco's.
>
> I suspect that's mainly because you have more experience with Honeywell
> (nee: Ademco) than with Napco. As I said to Jim, a lot of "preference"
> is what we've become accustomed to using. I realize that applies to me
> as well.
>
It shows!! :-)
Robert L Bass
>
> OK... I'm no fan of DSC, but a lot of our clients use the product. Their
> cans are pretty standard (read *not* flimsy) and the circuit boards are
> pretty standard too. In fact, I seriously doubt they're using anything more
> (or less) "flimsy" than anyone else is using.
Having worked with DSC, Napco, Honeywell and several other brands, I can
assure you that DSC's stuff is the flimsiest I've seen. Their panels bend
like an empty soda (er, "pop") can.
> You have a predelection for Napco.
Yep.
> That's well and good. Our customers certainly wouldn't recognize the
> difference between the zone "options" available on a Napco panel and the
> ones on a DSC, Paradox, or Ademco system.
Agreed. When people pay for a custom installation, they just want to know
that it works and how to use it. I deal with a different breed of client. I
encourage my customers to read the specs on several major brands we sell
before we go into brand selection. Once they've had an overview I discuss
what they actually want to protect (how many doors, windows, motion detectors,
etc). That's when we discuss any special needs they may have. If I'm
advising the client to use Napco (I don't always, just most of the time), I
explain how Napco's features will affect their use of the system. This often
clinches the sale simply because the panels can do so much.
> They're all far less sophisticated than the run of the mill DIYer you often
> tell us that you deal with. What my customers want is a system that's easy
> to arm and disarm. When it doesn't "arm" they want to know why, so a keypad
> display that references "open" zones is much appreciated.
Yep. The default setting with Napco keypads is to scroll through "open" zones
when the system is disarmed. This can be defeated if desired though.
> DSC and Paradox are both really easy to "arm" and "disarm".
No doubt about that. Napco offers two different keypad genres. The standard
"RP" series allows the client to select Interior On/Off and Delay/Instant.
The newer "K" series have Home Away options (easier to use but not as
flexible). All Napco keypads can also be set for 1-Button Arming. There's
also an "Easy Exit" feature that allows someone inside to trigger a brief
countdown and exit without disarming.
If the client triggers an "exit error" (the most common type of false alarm,
according to at least one SIA study), Napco can be programmed to restart the
exit delay. This is part of the SIA recommended anti-false alarm features.
> They're also really easy to teach other end-users to use.
So is Napco. "Observe if 'Ready' LED is lit. Enter code and press 'On'
button. When you get back enter your code and press 'Off' button."
> People like simple things, Robert. And most of the installers I've spoken
> with over the years prefer being able to set up a panel quickly and with
> minimal "fuss".
I don't doubt that for a moment, Frank. The problem is, "simple" isn't always
the same as "better."
> I prefer to keypad program and most systems I set up don't "depart" much
> from the standard panel defaults...
Because you're selling installed systems, this is no surprise. We're working
in differnt ends of the spectrum.
> I use the laptop for fire alarm systems most of which are a good deal more
> complex to program than the "average" home alarm system.
As you know, I'v been involved in that aspect of the business, even from the
manufacturer's perspective. Regardless of snide comments from certain
individuals, I've been more deeply involved in fire alarm software development
than anyone else participating here. Programming fire panels, while more
critical in some ways than burg systems, is only more complex on the large
scale projects. Many small to mid-sized fire systems actually have fewer
programming options than many high-end burglar alarm systems.
> I can see that this thread has the potential to degenerate to a level that I
> personally don't want to see again. I'll concede that Napco is the superior
> product in every respect but one, and that's "price". Let's leave it at
> that.
I have no intention of allowing the thread to degenerate into anything less
than a discussion of opinions on products. I would be interested to hear how
you would replicate my "Orthodox" systems using DSC hardware though. If it
can be done, I'll be more than a little impressed. Nothing negative implied
there, Frank. I really would like to hear if there's a way you know of.
Frank Olson
>
> No doubt about that. Napco offers two different keypad genres. The
> standard "RP" series allows the client to select Interior On/Off and
> Delay/Instant. The newer "K" series have Home Away options (easier to
> use but not as flexible). All Napco keypads can also be set for
> 1-Button Arming. There's also an "Easy Exit" feature that allows
> someone inside to trigger a brief countdown and exit without disarming.
And all of the above featurs are available on the DSC panels (and have
been for years) at half the price of a typical Napco or Ademco system.
This is what I meant by "feature rich".
>
> If the client triggers an "exit error" (the most common type of false
> alarm, according to at least one SIA study), Napco can be programmed to
> restart the exit delay. This is part of the SIA recommended anti-false
> alarm features.
We usually program our DSC systems to "quick exit". The keypad counts
down to the armed state once you "set" the system (as do most common
alarms). If you happen to open and close the exit/entry door before the
expiry of the exit delay, you'll instantly arm the system. DSC has
"quick keys" for such mundane things as "away" and "stay" arming,
"chime" and "reset".
>
>> They're also really easy to teach other end-users to use.
>
> So is Napco. "Observe if 'Ready' LED is lit. Enter code and press 'On'
> button. When you get back enter your code and press 'Off' button."
DSC and Paradox just need the code (to disarm), one button to arm either
"away" or "stay".
>
>> People like simple things, Robert. And most of the installers I've
>> spoken with over the years prefer being able to set up a panel quickly
>> and with minimal "fuss".
>
> I don't doubt that for a moment, Frank. The problem is, "simple" isn't
> always the same as "better."
Most of my clients want both. I figure the "better" comes with
"service". :-)
>
>> I prefer to keypad program and most systems I set up don't "depart"
>> much from the standard panel defaults...
>
> Because you're selling installed systems, this is no surprise. We're
> working in differnt ends of the spectrum.
Check.
>
>> I use the laptop for fire alarm systems most of which are a good deal
>> more complex to program than the "average" home alarm system.
>
> As you know, I'v been involved in that aspect of the business, even from
> the manufacturer's perspective. Regardless of snide comments from
> certain individuals, I've been more deeply involved in fire alarm
> software development than anyone else participating here. Programming
> fire panels, while more critical in some ways than burg systems, is only
> more complex on the large scale projects. Many small to mid-sized fire
> systems actually have fewer programming options than many high-end
> burglar alarm systems.
That goes without saying.
>
>> I can see that this thread has the potential to degenerate to a level
>> that I personally don't want to see again. I'll concede that Napco is
>> the superior product in every respect but one, and that's "price".
>> Let's leave it at that.
>
> I have no intention of allowing the thread to degenerate into anything
> less than a discussion of opinions on products. I would be interested
> to hear how you would replicate my "Orthodox" systems using DSC hardware
> though. If it can be done, I'll be more than a little impressed.
> Nothing negative implied there, Frank. I really would like to hear if
> there's a way you know of.
As I stated in another thread, you're going to have to provide the
parameters again. Include the holiday dates, etc.
Doug
"Frank Olson" <use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
news:yxsYl.10624$Dr4....@newsfe24.iad...
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>blah blah blah
>>Frank wrote
>>Blah blah blahdey blah blah
>>>RLB wrote
>>>blah blah double blahdey blah blah
Jesus wept, get the tape measure out and be done with it,
Doug
mleuck
<use_the_email_li...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote:
> I can see that this thread has the potential to degenerate to a level
> that I personally don't want to see again. I'll concede that Napco is
> the superior product in every respect but one, and that's "price".
> Let's leave it at that.
However it is not the superior product, Napco panels are very good but
I wouldn't call them the best and apparently neither does the rest of
the industry since every other brand outsells them
Robert only knows how to download them, he knows nothing about any
other brand out there including those he sells.
KingFish
"Doug" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:vYsYl.1261$7C4....@newsfe04.iad...
they have no problem with feeding the bAss troll. that's ok. but tell the
truth and ooooooo that's bad.
Robert L Bass
>
> That's a great pity. For a "faith" to restrict an individual to this extent
> is (at least for me) the point at which I would ask... WHY? I wouldn't
> make a very good Orthodox Jew. :-)
If it makes them feel closer to God, that's fine with me. Years ago I was
working on a system for a Jewish client on a Friday afternoon. It was close
to sunset and the lady of the house invited me to stay for dinner. After
dinner I remarked to her (I don't recall my precise words): "It must give you
great pride to carry on the traditions for another generation."
She replied, "Actually, it's a pain in the ass." :^)
> That's well and good. But knowledge is only one aspect. Application is
> the other. I'd prefer to leave Orthodox Jewish people to members of their
> own community (that actually UNDERSTAND their concerns). I don't need to
> pursue them as clients. I have much bigger fish to fry.
That's reasonable but I took another approach. I considered it an interesting
challenge to devise ways to accomodate their needs using electronics. In the
process I was fortunate enough to develop a good relationship with a somewhat
well-to-do segment of the community and that didn't hurt either.
>> I doubt you could do it with DSC modules but in answer to the "why bother"
>> question, it was done because that is what the clients needed.
>
> I don't need that kind of "client".
OK.
> Auto arming is a standard feature in most alarm systems (even the "cheapo"
> DSC stuff). And what you were providing here is nothing less than what
> others in the industry do as well.
Not many can auto-arm on schedule *if* there has been no activity (motion) for
xx hours.
> You're talking about disarming and re-arming a system that only employed
> contact type devices (no motion or glass break detectors). I'm not sure how
> you imagine an "out of the box" DSC system couldn't do this.
Some systems didn't include motions and glass breaks. Others (most actually)
did.
>>> You'll need to program a lot of relays. DSC's 1864 has four programmable
>>> outputs "on board".
>>
>> Try programming those relays to fire every Friday at 4:45 pm and release
>> every Saturday at 6:30 pm or some such time, if and only if the system is
>> disarmed. Try getting DSC to disarm, power down motions, re-arm while
>> auto-bypassing those motion detectors and then "undo" the same sequence at
>> the end of a 2- or 3-day holiday. It just can't be done using DSC
>> hardware.
>
> It can't be done with Napco's panels "out of the box either". You'll need
> additonal modules and relays.
It can't be done at all with DSC's modules. They don't offer that level of
flexibility.
>> Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific things
>> on the first Friday of a given month. Others needed things done on the
>> *last* Wednesday, etc. Try programming that with DSC.
>
> DBD (difficult but doable)...
DSC has no way to know that a given Wednesday is the last in a given month.
In fact, they don't have an option for the xx Friday either.
> Changing holiday dates is something you can download with most panels
> (including DSC's). As for providing an equipment list... I'd need you to
> post the client's exact requirements first. I've forgotten most of what you
> had posted here a couple of years ago. Also... If you find that I can
> program a DSC system to operate EXACTLY the way your most finicky client
> required, then we're going to have to set a "reward". Mine will include a
> $100.00 donation to the United Way. Yours...???
$100 to Moffitt Cancer Research Center. Actually, how about we both do that
and call the whole thing a draw?
> DSC doesn't have "mid range stuff". It's all "cheap". :-)
Agreed.
> These days with the exchange rate being what it is, it's cheaper to buy DSC.
If McCain had won it would have been cheaper to buy a couple of US states.
>> I suspect that's mainly because you have more experience with Honeywell
>> (nee: Ademco) than with Napco. As I said to Jim, a lot of "preference" is
>> what we've become accustomed to using. I realize that applies to me as
>> well.
>
> It shows!! :-)
I never disputed that.
Robert L Bass
>
>
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>
>> Robert L Bass wrote:
>>
>>blah blah blah
>
>>>Frank wrote
>
>>>Blah blah blahdey blah blah
>
>>>>RLB wrote
>
>>>>blah blah double blahdey blah blah
>
> Jesus wept, get the tape measure out and be done with it,
>
> Doug
I see Doug has contributed the best from his vast store of knowledge to the
thread.
Frank Olson
>
> Not many can auto-arm on schedule *if* there has been no activity
> (motion) for xx hours.
I don't think the Napco panels you used "back then" provided "if" and
"then" programming either. I think you're referring to a Magic Module.
>
>> You're talking about disarming and re-arming a system that only
>> employed contact type devices (no motion or glass break detectors).
>> I'm not sure how you imagine an "out of the box" DSC system couldn't
>> do this.
>
> Some systems didn't include motions and glass breaks. Others (most
> actually) did.
Once the power to glass breaks and motions is interrupted and the
contacts bypassed, any system that employs them will "degrade" to the
contacts you've provided.
> It can't be done at all with DSC's modules. They don't offer that level
> of flexibility.
Ahhhh... but you can wire relays to bypass lots of stuff.
>
>>> Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific
>>> things on the first Friday of a given month. Others needed things
>>> done on the *last* Wednesday, etc. Try programming that with DSC.
>>
>> DBD (difficult but doable)...
>
> DSC has no way to know that a given Wednesday is the last in a given
> month. In fact, they don't have an option for the xx Friday either.
>
No... But then Elk's Magic Module has often provided the means to do
so. I'm not "up" on Napco that much, but I figure that the panels you
used back then couldn't have done this "out of the box" either.
>
> $100 to Moffitt Cancer Research Center. Actually, how about we both do
> that and call the whole thing a draw?
OK by me. I would still like to see if I can make this all work with
DSC's product as a base, though. I've never backed down from a challenge!
Doug
"Robert L Bass" <Sa...@BassBurglarAlarms.com> wrote in message
news:LqWdnW1QLKmBUajX...@giganews.com...
> "Doug" wrote:
>>
>> Jesus wept, get the tape measure out and be done with it,
>>
>> Doug
>
> I see Doug has contributed the best from his vast store of knowledge to
> the thread.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> ==============================>
> http://www.bassburgIaraIarms.com
> ==============================>
My store of knowledge is indeed vast, and as I much as I appreciate your
somewhat belated acknowledgment of that fact, I feel that perhaps you are
being too generous as my comment is neither the best, nor retrieved from
the aforementioned store, rather its born from a certain weariness of
watching you and Frank get involved in a dick measuring contest.
Doug
Robert L Bass
>
> My store of knowledge is indeed vast...
Surpassed only by your humility, no doubt.
> and as I much as I appreciate your somewhat belated acknowledgment of that
> fact, I feel that perhaps you are being too generous as my comment is
> neither the best, nor retrieved from the aforementioned store...
I was jesting. In truth, I'd say that most of your comments seem to have been
retrieved from the toilet. I guess that's what happens when someone is
"flush" out of ideas. :^)
> rather its born from a certain weariness of watching you and Frank get
> involved in a dick measuring contest.
Actually, I've never given a moment to Frank's privates. Perhaps your own
interest in the subject twists a conversation about alarms into something
else.
Robert L Bass
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>>
>> Not many can auto-arm on schedule *if* there has been no activity (motion)
>> for xx hours.
>
> I don't think the Napco panels you used "back then" provided "if" and "then"
> programming either. I think you're referring to a Magic Module.
No "Magic Module" was used. That was an obsolete ELK product which probably
could have done the job. I used a lot of MA-3000 systems until the Napco
Gemini series came along. Both generations support the programmable relay
board but the P3200, P9600 and X255 are my favorites.
> Once the power to glass breaks and motions is interrupted and the contacts
> bypassed, any system that employs them will "degrade" to the contacts you've
> provided.
One of the nice things Napco does (and DSC doesn't) is provide a means to arm
over open (devices powered down) zones and then activate same when they become
"ready" later. It's a features that has to be used very carefully, on a
per-zone basis but it can be really handy for this type of app.
>> It can't be done at all with DSC's modules. They don't offer that level of
>> flexibility.
>
> Ahhhh... but you can wire relays to bypass lots of stuff.
Relays, yes. Try the "xxth Tuesday of the month" trick with DSC.
>> DSC has no way to know that a given Wednesday is the last in a given month.
>> In fact, they don't have an option for the xx Friday either.
>
> No... But then Elk's Magic Module has often provided the means to do so.
I *assume* the MM could do that. However, it's out of production and I never
used one so that remains an assumption. In any case, it's definitely not "out
of the box" for either brand.
> I'm not "up" on Napco that much, but I figure that the panels you used back
> then couldn't have done this "out of the box" either.
They could and did.
>> $100 to Moffitt Cancer Research Center. Actually, how about we both do
>> that and call the whole thing a draw?
>
> OK by me. I would still like to see if I can make this all work with DSC's
> product as a base, though. I've never backed down from a challenge!
Kewl. You figure out which modules you need and how to program the system to
do it and I'm in for the C-note.
Jim
<use_the_email_li...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote:
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>
> > Not many can auto-arm on schedule *if* there has been no activity
> > (motion) for xx hours.
>
> I don't think the Napco panels you used "back then" provided "if" and
> "then" programming either. �I think you're referring to a Magic Module.
>
>
3200 and 9600 panels. Yes you need the 3008 relay boards but .........
that's it.
However, I hope that unlike the Radionics line, (that was way ahead of
their time) Napco doesn't let the rest of the industry catch up with
their feature rich panels. Some are finally able to do things that
Napco could do a decade ago.
mleuck
Strange how they still haven't figured out how to send anything more
than 7 CID or SIA events
Robert L Bass
>
> Strange how they still haven't figured out how to send anything more than 7
Strange such an expert doesn't realize there are 8 -- not 7 -- alarm types.
Napco decided to use the 8 most common alarm signals: Fire, Panic, Holdup, Gas
Heat, Auxiliary and "24 Hour". This is always followed by the zone ID, with
which any competent CS is able to display "Burglary: Zone 27, Left Rear
Window" or whatever else is needed. The Napco panels can send the above 8
Alarm types plus Alarm Restore, Trouble and Trouble Restore. As well, Napco
will report Openings, Opening After Alarm, Closings, Conditional Closing,
Late to Open, Late to Close, Cancel codes, System Troubles of every type, A/C
and System Battery trouble and Restore, RF Battery trouble, etc.
DSC allows the panel to send different codes for every zone. The problem with
that is the results are non-standard. You can mistakenly program the DSC
system to send a fire alarm from a burglary zone or vice versa. One of the
main points of Contact ID and "SIA" (technically, they're both SIA formats but
there's no need to quibble) is to standardize the signals sent for each alarm
condition. You want to have any panel reporting a Burglary condition to send
only the codes which indicate Burglary. The Contact ID format does allow
panels to report various sub-types, such as Burg on a Delay Zone but few
panels actually use that and, judging from what I've seen during takeovers,
most installers don't even know how the full code set. Honeywell panels do
make use of the full code set, but it's their format so that is to be
expected.
mleuck
wrote:
> "mleuck" wrote:
>
> > Strange how they still haven't figured out how to send anything more than 7
> > CID or SIA events...
>
> Strange such an expert doesn't realize there are 8 -- not 7 -- alarm types.
> Napco decided to use the 8 most common alarm signals: Fire, Panic, Holdup, Gas
> Heat, Auxiliary and "24 Hour". This is always followed by the zone ID, with
> which any competent CS is able to display "Burglary: Zone 27, Left Rear
> Window" or whatever else is needed. The Napco panels can send the above 8
> Alarm types plus Alarm Restore, Trouble and Trouble Restore. As well, Napco
> will report Openings, Opening After Alarm, Closings, Conditional Closing,
> Late to Open, Late to Close, Cancel codes, System Troubles of every type, A/C
> and System Battery trouble and Restore, RF Battery trouble, etc.
Too bad it can't seem to send high temp, low temp, waterflow, loss of
heat, loss of air flow, low CO2, Gate Valve Sensor, low water level,
pump failure, 24 hour non-burg, foil break, freeze, Interior burg,
perimeter burg, entry/exit burg, outdoor, near alarm like DSC.
on and on and on
> DSC allows the panel to send different codes for every zone. The problem with
> that is the results are non-standard. You can mistakenly program the DSC
> system to send a fire alarm from a burglary zone or vice versa.
You would have to turn off SIA or CID auto-reporting to do that and
you can easily do the same thing with Napco which btw doesn't seem to
have a SIA or CID zone auto-reporting
> One of the
> main points of Contact ID and "SIA" (technically, they're both SIA formats but
> there's no need to quibble) is to standardize the signals sent for each alarm
> condition. You want to have any panel reporting a Burglary condition to send
> only the codes which indicate Burglary. The Contact ID format does allow
> panels to report various sub-types, such as Burg on a Delay Zone but few
> panels actually use that and, judging from what I've seen during takeovers,
> most installers don't even know how the full code set. Honeywell panels do
> make use of the full code set, but it's their format so that is to be
> expected.
Few as in Napco doesn't however DSC does
mleuck
wrote:
>
> > Strange how they still haven't figured out how to send anything more than 7
> > CID or SIA events...
>
> Strange such an expert doesn't realize there are 8 -- not 7 -- alarm types.
> Napco decided to use the 8 most common alarm signals: Fire, Panic, Holdup, Gas
> Heat, Auxiliary and "24 Hour".
I seriously doubt Napco had much choice, only so much you can cram
into a processor
And it's kind of funny you listed 7, you forgot Burg
Robert L Bass
>
> Too bad it can't seem to send high temp, low temp, waterflow, loss of heat,
> loss of air flow, low CO2, Gate Valve Sensor, low water level, pump failure,
> 24 hour non-burg, foil break, freeze, Interior burg, perimeter burg,
> entry/exit burg, outdoor, near alarm like DSC.
Sure it can and I already explained how but you continue to pretend not to
understand that. However, neither the Napco Gemini systems nor your beloved
DSC are commercial fire alarms so waterflow, loss of air flow, pump failure,
etc., are irrelavent (not that you didn't know already that).
> on and on and on...
As always.
> You would have to turn off SIA or CID auto-reporting to do that and you can
> easily do the same thing with Napco which btw doesn't seem to have a SIA or
> CID zone auto-reporting.
The problem is that with DSC you *can* turn off auto reporting, resulting in
the very real probability that someone will send a Burglary signal from a Fire
alarm zone. Napco can send reports in SIA and CID. Programming is a snap.
In fact, when you select the zone type, Napco automatically selects the proper
report code. That you likely didn't know.
The reality is that Napco's panels are orders of magnitude more powerful and
more flexible than DSC's stuff. Arguing that because DSC has fewer options it
is therefore somehow "better" is ridiculous. Arguing that DSC has the ability
to send reports for commercial fire while no sane installer would ever use DSC
for commercial fire is worse.
Robert L Bass
>
> I seriously doubt Napco had much choice, only so much you can cram
It's in the memory chip -- not the processor. However, Napco offers tons more
features and programmable options than DSC.
> And it's kind of funny you listed 7, you forgot Burg
Yep.
mleuck
wrote:
> "mleuck" wrote:
>
> > Too bad it can't seem to send high temp, low temp, waterflow, loss of heat,
> > loss of air flow, low CO2, Gate Valve Sensor, low water level, pump failure,
> > 24 hour non-burg, foil break, freeze, Interior burg, perimeter burg,
> > entry/exit burg, outdoor, near alarm like DSC.
>
> Sure it can and I already explained how but you continue to pretend not to
> understand that. However, neither the Napco Gemini systems nor your beloved
> DSC are commercial fire alarms so waterflow, loss of air flow, pump failure,
> etc., are irrelavent (not that you didn't know already that).
There are many other signals that I didn't list, you also forget that
those panels can be used in other markets or not as commercial fire
alarms. In the case of Napco it doesn't matter if it's a 1632 or a
commercial fire MA3000 you still cannot send any of those listed
signals.
> The problem is that with DSC you *can* turn off auto reporting, resulting in
> the very real probability that someone will send a Burglary signal from a Fire
> alarm zone. Napco can send reports in SIA and CID. Programming is a snap.
> In fact, when you select the zone type, Napco automatically selects the proper
> report code. That you likely didn't know.
And there are many reasons why you "can" turn off that feature, namely
to send additional events not allowed with auto-reporting. Aditional
events that Napco can't send at all
> The reality is that Napco's panels are orders of magnitude more powerful and
> more flexible than DSC's stuff. Arguing that because DSC has fewer options it
> is therefore somehow "better" is ridiculous. Arguing that DSC has the ability
> to send reports for commercial fire while no sane installer would ever use DSC
> for commercial fire is worse.
You conveniently missed all the non-fire signals DSC is capable of
sending, I find it interesting that in areas where Napco may have an
advantage you trumpet it loudly yet when a rather important feature
such as event reporting is lacking it suddenly doesn't matter. I
suppose it isn't important to someone who once had a central station
in his den but I assure you in the real world it is.
Robert L Bass
"mleuck" <m.l...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:d88f584b-3571-49a3...@u10g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
>
> There are many other signals that I didn't list...
Oh, you forgot those?
> you also forget that those panels can be used in other markets or not as
> commercial fire alarms.
Yeah, sure.
> In the case of Napco it doesn't matter if it's a 1632 or a commercial fire
> MA3000 you still cannot send any of those listed signals.
Nor do you need to. However, the Napco has so many features and options that
are simply unavailable with DSC that this is the staw you're holding onto. Do
feel free to continue harping on how Napco's residential systems don't send
commercial fire signals thogh.
> And there are many reasons why you "can" turn off that feature, namely to
> send additional events not allowed with auto-reporting. Aditional events
> that Napco can't send at all...
Yes, such as erroneous signals, fire on burg, etc. Marvelous.
> The reality is that Napco's panels are orders of magnitude more powerful and
> more flexible than DSC's stuff. Arguing that because DSC has fewer options
> it is therefore somehow "better" is ridiculous. Arguing that DSC has the
> ability to send reports for commercial fire while no sane installer would
> ever use DSC for commercial fire is worse.
> You conveniently missed all the non-fire signals DSC is capable of
> sending...
And you conveniently ignored the fact that DSC's systems are simple and
feature poor compared to Napco. Instead of accepting that you harp endlessly
on DSC's one feature. How about coming up with sonething substantive for a
change. Naah. That won't happen.
> I find it interesting that in areas where Napco may have an advantage you
> trumpet it loudly yet when a rather important feature such as event
> reporting is lacking it suddenly doesn't matter. I suppose it isn't
> important to someone who once had a central station in his den but I assure
> you in the real world it is.
Napco does have numerous advantages over DSC beyond the fact that their
hardware is better built. It does not allow you to modify the eight alarm
signals though. Big deal. DSC loses on several hundred lines and wins on
something that really doesn't matter (however, you continue to ignore the fact
that any CS in the country has the ability to display very specific zone data
based on the signals Napco sends).
demi...@gmail.com
> They can be mounted anywhere along the databus. Precisely where varies
> from installer to installer and from one premises to the next. There's a
> way to make the EZM-8 modules beep so you can locate them.
>
I've checked the GEM-EZM8 installation manual and can't locate how to make the EZM modules beep so I can locate them. Can you tell me more about how to activate this beep feedback feature?
ABLE1
will yield to Jim to help this fellow.
Les
Bob La Londe
Maybe delete all the expanders?
Doesn't help if its using keypad expanders though I don't think.
Never had that problem myself.
Jim Davis
TAA DAAAAAAA!
Bob La Londe
news:9aa400ba-6dcf-4f66...@googlegroups.com...
I thought of that, then I thought my way would be more fun.