Seeking Schematics
Jeff Wisnia
My home is fitted with a 19 year old wired intrusion alarm which has
worked faultlessly since it was installed by a sub to the the general
contractor who built the place. The only service it's required has been
changing the backup gel cell every few years.
I'm a retired EE with many years of experience designing solid state
control systems. I have the technical knowledge and tools to service 20
year old electronics down to the component level. Proper documentation
makes the job easier and avoids my having to "reverse engineer" a device
just to find out what should be going with it's circuitry.
The core Control Panel in our home's system is a Guardaware CU-22
The followng accessories are also used:
Moose Products, Inc. MPI-11 Siren Driver module
Corby Industries Model 86 Latching Relay (Used to bypass an IR motion
detector.)
Guardaware LM-1 (I haven't yet figured out its function, but I suspect
it might be used to blink the green "Loop Closed" LRD's on the keypads
to indicate that the alarm's was tripped, after the "Burglar Bell"
output has timed out.)
We had some unusually severe lightening storms here last week which
knocked out power to the neighborhood. Coincidentaly the CU-22 had the
driver transistor for it's "Burglar Bell" output relay go leaky so the
relay was pulled in anytime the CU-22 was powered by it's ac source,
regardless of the Panel's status. Interestingly enough, if the CU-22 was
running off it's backup battery the "12 volt" bus was lower by enough so
the transistor leakage wouldn't quite pull in that relay.
I was lucky enough to be able to troubleshoot and repair that one easily
enough, but it caused me to think about future service needs. I do have
the Installer's Manual which came with the CU22, but I'd sure like to
get a schematic of the whole pc board to tuck away for the next time I
have to fix it. Schematics of the accessory units would also be nice to
have.
I haven't been successful Googling up anything much about those items,
probably because they're all nearly 20 years old now. I can't even tell
if Guardaware, Inc. is still in business.
Cany anbody help with prints or leads to places where I can get them?
Thanks guys,
Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."
Russ Brill
Give www.tech-man.com a try, if there's a schematic available for your
control, Jim will probably have it.........Regards, Russ
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwi...@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:hOqdnaCe4dz...@comcast.com...
Robert L. Bass
the trade. Jim has a great manual collection but this is one thing you
won't find there. Unfortunately, you're not likely to find it anywhere else
either.
The CU-22 was a very simple panel. If it fails again it's hardly worth the
effort to repair it, considering the cost of a replacement panel and keypad
would be in the neighborhood of $100 to $110 (retail). The OP might want to
maintain the board just for the fun of it but there's no support
documentation in circulation.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
> Give tech-man a try, if there's a schematic available
> for your control, Jim will probably have it...
>
Jeff Wisnia
Robert L. Bass wrote:
> Like most alarm manufacturers, Guardaware never issued panel schematics to
> the trade. Jim has a great manual collection but this is one thing you
> won't find there. Unfortunately, you're not likely to find it anywhere else
> either.
Thanks, and while it's not the first time I've encountered
manufacturer's apparant paranoia over stuff like that, I've always felt
it was pretty short sighted, since if another manufacturer really wanted
to get the design, it'd take at most a couple of days to trace out the
schematic from the circuit board (particularly a single sided board like
the CU-22) and to get what you need, proving it correct with a
breadboard. I've even seen manufacturers sanpaper the labeling off of
integrated circuit chips for the same silly reason.
The world of electronics has of course changed since my CU-22 was
manufactured, and what I just said isn't as applicable to the current
crop of solid state electronics with their integrated processors and
such. Hell, most electronic components are so darned small now that you
practically need a microscope to see them, so tiny that there's no room
to print part numbers on them. <G>
>
> The CU-22 was a very simple panel. If it fails again it's hardly worth the
> effort to repair it, considering the cost of a replacement panel and keypad
> would be in the neighborhood of $100 to $110 (retail).
Well for me it'd be *three* keypads and the little bit of additional
work swapping them in. I did have a look around the web in anticipation
of not being able to fix the panel, and it appears there's not much
current stuff out there that would be a quick swap for the CU-22 and be
happy working with my three existing "dumb" keypads which just give a
momentary contact closure to toggle the panel's arm/disarm and a couple
of LEDs to indicate "loop closed" and "armed". But if I'm wrong about
that, please clue me in.
I totally agree with what you say, for anyone in the business or for
someone whose every spare minute is worth money to them or even those
who would rather play golf or do crossword puzzles than fix broken
stuff. But what applies to folks still in the rat race doesn't
neccessarily apply to those of us who have successfully made it into
retirement.
I'm one of those odd ducks who delights in a doing a successful fix of
something that only needs the right 25 cent part replaced to make it
good as new. And it's determining just which part that is that's the
challenge. I get as much of a kick out of that as I would solving the
whole New York Times crossword puzzle. (As if I ever could.<G>)
Regards,
Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/
Clif
laugh seeing the small banners and shed a tear seeing your moms tombstone.
But it is awesome.
AND I love the MIT Mousetrap lol
Clif
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwi...@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:QoWdnUHQR7w...@comcast.com...
rck
products. I was in engineering and we would take a competitor's product,
x-ray it, dissolve the epoxy out of it, analyze it every which way, create a
schematic and then do performance testing on it. In the end we sometimes had
more data on a product than the manufacturer had themselves.
Bob
Group Moderator
From: Jeff Wisnia jwi...@conversent.net
Date: 7/5/2004 1:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <QoWdnUHQR7w...@comcast.com>
Regards,
Jeff
--
http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/
Mike Said:
Nice little kit right here:
mhtml:http://alarmsuperstore.com/specials/DSCkit120.mht!DSCkit120_files/sl
ide0002.htm
Mike, Sr.
33 Years in the trade
http://www.AlarmServicesInc.com
http://www.AlarmSuperStore.com
"Your One Stop Alarm Shop"
Group Moderator
Robert L. Bass
> manufacturer's apparant paranoia over stuff like that, I've
> always felt it was pretty short sighted, since if another
> manufacturer really wanted to get the design, it'd take at
> most a couple of days to trace out the schematic from the
> circuit board (particularly a single sided board like the
> CU-22) and to get what you need, proving it correct with
> a breadboard.
Although paranoia is rampant in the trade, I don't think that is the reason
alarm manufacturers don't circulate board level schematics. It's mostly
because there is so little demand for them. Very few tradespeople in the
alarm industry have the skills to do board level repairs. Most installers
wouldn't know which end of a diode is which.
Alarm companies almost never (there are a few exceptions, of course) repair
alarm equipment any more. There are two forces at work behind this. On the
one hand, the equipment is becoming almost entirely microprocessor and SMD
based as you mention. OTOH, over the last ten years or so the industry has
been flooded with non-technical "technicians" who are only trained to
install whatever mini-system their employer is hawking. You can thank the
ADT "authorized dealer" program and similar fast-buck deals for that.
Regardless of the reasons, very few people ever ask for schematics so it's
not worth the cost for manufacturers to distribute them. It certainly would
be nice if they would make them available once support for a dropped product
is terminated.
> I've even seen manufacturers sandpaper the labeling
> off of integrated circuit chips for the same silly
> reason.
If they were in the alarm trade they'd probably say they were doing so for
"liability" or some such drivel. :^)
> Well for me it'd be *three* keypads and the little bit
> of additional work swapping them in...
Since the existing keypads have a momentary, dry-contact output they can
actually be used with a new panel. YOu would simply connect the output
relays of the keypads to unused zones (sensing circuits) and program said
zones as "keyswitch" inputs. Any time any of the keypad relays is thrown
the panel will toggle between armed and disarmed.
> I did have a look around the web in anticipation
> of not being able to fix the panel, and it appears
> there's not much current stuff out there that would
> be a quick swap for the CU-22 and be happy
> working with my three existing "dumb" keypads
> which just give a momentary contact closure to
> toggle the panel's arm/disarm and a couple of
> LEDs to indicate "loop closed" and "armed". But
> if I'm wrong about that, please clue me in.
Napco makes several panels that would do just fine. The same is true of a
number of other brands I carry.
> I totally agree with what you say, for anyone in the
> business or for someone whose every spare minute
> is worth money to them or even those who would
> rather play golf or do crossword puzzles than fix
> broken stuff. But what applies to folks still in the rat
> race doesn't neccessarily apply to those of us who
> have successfully made it into retirement.
Exactly. I have many DIY clients who can easily afford to hire someone to
install an alarm or home automation system for them. They choose to DIY
because it's interesting to them and/or because some local companies and
industry giants just aren't interested in doing a comprehansive job.
> I'm one of those odd ducks who delights in a doing
> a successful fix of something that only needs the right
> 25 cent part replaced to make it good as new...
For now it appears you've done just that with your old CU-22. I've worked
on a few of those old panels many years ago (they were old then:)). Glad it
worked out for you. Should the time arise when you decide you want to bump
up the volume on your system, feel free to contact me.
> I get as much of a kick out of that as I would solving
> the whole New York Times crossword puzzle. (As if
> I ever could.<G>)
In all fairness I should state that like most in the trade I work on alarms
but I don't do board level repairs either. However, I like to do the NYT
Sunday puzzle... in ink. :^)
Aegis
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OtqdndnVCtF...@giganews.com...
> > Thanks, and while it's not the first time I've encountered
> > manufacturer's apparant paranoia over stuff like that, I've
> > always felt it was pretty short sighted, since if another
> > manufacturer really wanted to get the design, it'd take at
> > most a couple of days to trace out the schematic from the
> > circuit board (particularly a single sided board like the
> > CU-22) and to get what you need, proving it correct with
> > a breadboard.
>
> Although paranoia is rampant in the trade, I don't think that is the
reason
> alarm manufacturers don't circulate board level schematics. It's mostly
> because there is so little demand for them. Very few tradespeople in the
> alarm industry have the skills to do board level repairs. Most installers
> wouldn't know which end of a diode is which.
>
> Alarm companies almost never (there are a few exceptions, of course)
repair
> alarm equipment any more. There are two forces at work behind this. On
the
> one hand, the equipment is becoming almost entirely microprocessor and SMD
> based as you mention. OTOH, over the last ten years or so the industry
has
> been flooded with non-technical "technicians" who are only trained to
> install whatever mini-system their employer is hawking. You can thank the
> ADT "authorized dealer" program and similar fast-buck deals for that.
Do you blame ADT for the same thing happening globally across most
(non-alarm) technical industries too? You've got engineers and trained
primates... No room for the tech anymore.
Charles Booth
You sound like a Bostonian. Retired engineer from Raytheon maybe?
I have a few CU22 panels, used, but functioning. May even have some
keypads for it. Most of my Guardaware installs were CU66's and a few
CU88's. I still have a few hundred CU66's still operating in the
Greater Boston area.
I also have some Corby pads.
Guardaware, a company from Brockton Masachusetts area, was acquired by
International Electronics Inc. (IEI) and the original design engineer,
Chris, may still be there doing his thing. I always thought Chris's
ideas were ahead of their time.
I've saved a lot of "junk," aka antiques, from the 1960's and forward
that will probably end up in the collection owned by Ralph
Sevinor of Wayne Alarm in Lynn Massachusetts.
I still have several customers with CU22's that were installed by
other companies a long time ago.
Reply here if I can be of any assistance.
This thread has reminded me that J. R. requested that I send him
copies of all the Guardaware documents that I have. Was supposed to
do it several months ago. Where does the time go?
Charlie
Robert L. Bass
> globally across most (non-alarm) technical
> industries too?
I don't pay as much attention to the degradation of other trades as to that
which is happening in my own industry. FTR, I don't consider ADT to be the
only culprit. Their "authorized dealer" program is certainly among the
worst influences on the trade but they are far from alone. With the
onslaught of firms like P1 and Monitronix the industry has had an influx of
incompetent fast-buck artists such as Fowler. These people who neither know
how to install an alarm nor care about clients' security are just as bad as,
if not worse than many ADT dealers. The slip-shod workmanship and total
failure of customer support is responsible for much of the false alarm
problem that is choking the future of the industry.
The other half of the problem is an unwillingness among established dealers
to do anything to "police the ranks." Most dealers would rather ignore
dishonest practices than report another dealer for fear that others will
expose their own failings. They make the AMA look open and forthright by
comparison. :^)
> You've got engineers and trained primates...
> No room for the tech anymore.
That's true. People like these would never pay a decent wage to hire a
competent technician. Instead they hire high school drop-outs or even 8th
grade flunk-outs like the MM for minimum wage, give them a few hours'
training in Lick 'n' Stick 101 and set them loose on an unsuspecting public,
claiming to have 33 years in the trade. It's pathetic what these dolts have
done to our industry.
Group Moderator
From: "Robert L. Bass" rober...@comcast.net
Date: 7/6/2004 11:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <y5adncvd5cH...@giganews.com>
Instead they hire high school drop-outs or even 8th grade flunk-outs like the
MM for minimum wage, give them a few hours' training in Lick 'n' Stick 101 and
set them loose on an unsuspecting public, claiming to have 33 years in the
trade. It's pathetic what these dolts have
done to our industry.
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
Mike Said:
First of all asswiper, you are **NOT** in this industry. PERIOD. You are a
CONVICT. Next, is MM makes more money than you can count. MM has more respect
in this industry than you could ever try to get. MM knows the people in the
right places to keep smacking your dumb ass down over and over.
PS:
Trying hard to get customers to purchase from your store I see SCAMMER.
Keywords will not help you. Basshome.com and Bassburglarmalarms.com are all
washed up.
Look what this sick puppy is trying to do:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
has detected the following changes:
#1.
The following lines were inserted into the document:
>>>
-- Caddx Control Panels
-- Caddx Keypads
-- Caddx Expansion Modules
-- Caddx Wireless Recievers
-- Caddx Wireless Door & Window Sensors
-- Caddx Wireless Motion Detectors
-- Caddx Wireless Glassbreaks Sensors
-- Caddx Wireless Smoke Detectors
-- Caddx Wireless Freeze & Flood Sensors
-- Caddx Wireless Panics
-- Caddx Wireless Accessories
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- DSC Security Systems
-- DSC Control Panels
-- DSC Keypads
-- DSC Accessories
-- DSC TCP/IP Internet Monitoring & Control
-- DSC Wireless Products
-- DSC Burglary Sensors
-- DSC Smoke & Gas Detectors
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- FBII Fire Burglary Instruments
-- FBII Alarm Control Panels
-- FBII Keypads
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- ITI by GE Security
>>>
#2.
In the following block of text, everything after the first line and before the
last line was deleted:
>>>
-- Control Panels
-- Keypads
-- Expansion Modules
-- Wireless Receivers
-- Wireless Door & Window Sensors
-- Wireless Motion Detectors
-- Wireless Glassbreaks
-- Wireless Smoke Detectors
-- Wireless Freeze & Flood Sensors
-- Wireless Panics
-- Wireless Accessories
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- DSC Security Systems
-- Control Panels
-- Keypads
-- Accessories
-- TCP/IP Internet Monitoring & Control
-- Wireless Products
-- Burglary Sensors
-- Smoke & Gas Detectors
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- FBII Fire Burglary Instruments
-- Control Panels
-- Keypads
-- Ademco Vista Wired Alarms & Automation Sensors
-- Ademco Vista Outdoor Protection
- ITI by GE Security
-- Control Panels
-- Keypads & Remotes
Before anyone buys a screw from you they read this:
http://www.goofysplace.com
See how he scams people:
"Consumer: Beware BassHome.com"
From br...@karas.com.delthis (Brian Karas)
Well, I said I wouldn't respond to your continued misunderstanding of MIME and
VCards, and I don't intend to
address that here, but you make a couple of statements that really irked me,
the biggest concern is the last comments
you made...
As I've pointed out before, you alone have swayed my opinion of you. If you
search through DejaNews to about 12-15months
ago you'll find a post in comp.home.automation where I publicly and strongly
defended you when someone else called one
of your PR: type posts spam. I've disagreed with you, and made mention that
you have a thin understanding of the
Internet and Usenet, but I've also said publicly that I believe you are very
intelligent in your trade.
Recently a topic or two has come up in misc.homeowners about alarm systems, and
I've referred one or two people to
your website. If you call my disagreement with you abuse or slander, so be it.
Go answer your e-mails that people constantly complain about you not answering.
Or fix your e-mail system, you seem
to have plenty of time and technology to keep up with Usenet posts. I'll give
you a hint, the people e-mailing you
_WANT_ to hear your opinion...
You find my public posting of you disagreeable, and I'll admit that I
sometimes, or even often, may take a strong
stance against your opinions. I may be completely blind to your side, but I
haven't considered any of my posts
unsubstantiated attacks on you. I have sided against you, and tried to give
relevant data to back up my arguments,
perhaps I could have been more eloquent. Had I been just some guy making
random slanderous attacks on you,
I might understand why you'd simply delete any mail with my name on it,
however, you did not see fit to delete the
orders I've placed through your website?
Yes, for those still following along I've ordered about $500 worth of
components from Robert in the last few months.
I'm a telecommunications geek by trade, and an Automation and cabling
installer alongside my 'day job' I've
recently begun to pursue alarm systems as a branch of my private business. My
biggest alarm installs have been
assisting others, and/or my own house. When I had to buy some products
recently I went to http://www.Basshome.com,
not because of price, not because Robert is my best friend, but because
despite my disagreement with him I felt he
had an efficient online store and I wanted to 'reward' his efforts with my
business. I could have gone to
any number of local places and received identical equipment at competitive
prices, but I didn't.
After ordering some Napco equipment, I had some questions about the automation
and X-10 add-ons, basically I wanted
to know the differences between them, etc., as his website didn't really
clarify this. So, I sent him an e-mail,
which as I mentioned, and he confirmed went unanswered.
So Robert, your overall stance seems to be that you will help any DIY'er so
long as they _publicly_ agree with you.
However, should someone do a moderate amount of business with you and later
disagree with you, all support is cut off,
eh?
This is what your actions and words state, and I caution anyone who orders
from you that you have a strange way of
doing business.
This would almost seem like a complete story, but there is a bit more to
it...
When I buy things via the Internet I use a debit card as a credit card, as a
small security measure, should the
number fall into the wrong hands I can easily minimize my loses and cancel the
card without disrupting the rest
of my finances, however it's sometimes a less than perfect way to transact
business. During a a recent order
with Bass for about $380 there was some difficulty in processing the card.
There was more than enough funds in
my account, but the bank didn't authorize the card on the first try. Robert
(and/or his wife) e-mailed me directly
with questions/concerns about the card. After verifying my address the order
still wouldn't go through, so his wife
resorted to calling me on the phone to clear things up, which we did. This
process probably took about 4 days to a
week and resulted in about 4 e-mails back and forth and a couple of voice
mails. During this time Robert had to be
more than aware of who I was, as I had posted other 'nasty' public
disagreements with him, but no mention was
made in the e-mails or phone calls that he would provide no support after the
sale.
I hope this message serves to warn some of those who might consider giving him
some business, or otherwise putting
their faith or trust in him...
Robert has also publicly stated that he doesn't take things too seriously, and
is quick to make amends, however
I'd have to doubt this...
Robert, I'm sure my $500 didn't buy you an Armani suit, or allow your family
to take a tropical vacation, but perhaps
you should state somewhere on your webpage that you only support those who
support _you_ with words rather than dollars.
I do apologize to all the others that have had to sift through these constant
small wars and battles
Brian@ 'at' @Karas. 'dot' .com.
Return address munged to prevent SPAM...
SOHO DataComm wiring, FAQ's, etc:
http://www.PhysicalLayer.com
Alarminex
<rober...@comcast.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: Seeking Schematics
>From: "Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:05:33 -0400
>
>> Do you blame ADT for the same thing happening
>> globally across most (non-alarm) technical
>> industries too?
>
>I don't pay as much attention to the degradation of other trades as to that
>which is happening in my own industry.
How could what's happening in the alarm installation trade have anything to do
with you? You don't install systems you only run an on line store that sells
alarm parts direct to the consumer.
>FTR, I don't consider ADT to be the
>only culprit. Their "authorized dealer" program is certainly among the
>worst influences on the trade but they are far from alone. With the
>onslaught of firms like P1 and Monitronix the industry has had an influx of
>incompetent fast-buck artists such as Fowler.
Would you please provide proof that what you are saying is true and that you
have first hand knowledge of what you are saying? Oh? What's that? You're only
saying these things so that end users will not consider using an installation
company and instead buy parts from you? Oh. Ok .......... Now we understand
your motivation for you professing to know all about a trade that you don't
participate in.
>These people who neither know
>how to install an alarm nor care about clients' security are just as bad as,
>if not worse than many ADT dealers. The slip-shod workmanship and total
>failure of customer support is responsible for much of the false alarm
>problem that is choking the future of the industry.
Please give an accurate comparison of the quantity of good installations to bad
installations. And provide your source of these accurate figures. Oopps! Can't
do it? Awww jeez, maybe if you didn't have an agenda of trying to fool the
public to buy from you, you'd be more careful in making your unsubstantiated
claims.
>
>The other half of the problem is an unwillingness among established dealers
>to do anything to "police the ranks." Most dealers would rather ignore
>dishonest practices than report another dealer for fear that others will
>expose their own failings. They make the AMA look open and forthright by
>comparison. :^)
Ahhhh yes. Here we have an example of one of your worst faults. A thow back
from your school years when the teacher would make you the room monitor because
she knew you were the only asshole who would tell the teacher who was talking.
>
>> You've got engineers and trained primates...
>> No room for the tech anymore.
>
>That's true. People like these would never pay a decent wage to hire a
>competent technician. Instead they hire high school drop-outs or even 8th
>grade flunk-outs like the MM for minimum wage, give them a few hours'
>training in Lick 'n' Stick 101 and set them loose on an unsuspecting public,
>claiming to have 33 years in the trade.
Again, please supply us with your source of this information. Exactly how many
companys do this?
> It's pathetic what these dolts have
>done to our industry.
Also, again, the installation trade is NOT your industry. You don't install and
probably haven't picked up a tool in 10 years. Not only because you are not in
the installation trade but because you ............being a 300 pound porker,
can no longer .......... bend down to pick up anything.
>
>Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
>
>
Jim
(Email accepted only upon request.)
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints...