PING: Ghettoizing comment & a question

[artist]

I believe artists have been 'Ghetto-ized' with the thanks going to
the Modiglianis and Franz Klines of the art world whose personal lives
and general poor manners have become the folk legend of eccentric
artists. In any case, wild lifestyles and working at 3a.m. with Wagner
blasting on the phono makes for good press but you wouldn't want them
pissing in the fireplace while trying to sell their art to the kind of
people that can afford to buy it. I have had people tell me that I was
"dressed awfully nice for an artist." Of course I explained to them that
as a starving artist there simply wasn't any food for me to spill on
myself but if they would only buy something I could go home and eat like
a peasant. They didn't buy.
I have run into situations mentioned by some of the gripers but on
the whole artists are treated quite fairly where I live. I donate pieces
regularly to an annual AIDS benefit / auction and am given admission for
myself and a guest including drink tickets. Alas, there is no food to
smear on my apparel. I also volunteer my time to two art organizations
which makes me carry some of the responsibility for how they are
conducted. Basically… if you don't like how they do things at City Hall
run for office.

Now for my question… This ng has an outstanding cadre of people who
genuinely discuss aesthetics and mechanics, unfortunately I am a painter
( it's not unfortunate that I paint, rather the discussions don't really
apply to my medium ). Does anyone here know of another ng dealing with
2-D art that isn't full of SPAM and B.S.?

Thanks to all, and never stop creating,

t

[Llothcat]

Good question..been wondering that meself=)

artist wrote:

>
> Now for my question… This ng has an outstanding cadre of people who
> genuinely discuss aesthetics and mechanics, unfortunately I am a painter
> ( it's not unfortunate that I paint, rather the discussions don't really
> apply to my medium ). Does anyone here know of another ng dealing with
> 2-D art that isn't full of SPAM and B.S.?
>
> Thanks to all, and never stop creating,
>
> t

--
CAT~
little carnivore
hunts mosquitoes and pine cones
fears vacuum cleaners

[zoo]

Maybe we should investigate starting up our own ng - I'm getting fed up with
rfa too. With all the flaming that goes on in that forum, a lot of people
are too intimidated to post. alt. sculpture is much friendlier and has
little to no bs in comparison with rfa. Is this ng moderated?

Louise

[Andrew Werby]

----- Original Message -----
From: "artist" <art...@large.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sculpture
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:17 AM
Subject: PING: Ghettoizing comment & a question

> I believe artists have been 'Ghetto-ized' with the thanks going to
> the Modiglianis and Franz Klines of the art world whose personal lives
> and general poor manners have become the folk legend of eccentric
> artists. In any case, wild lifestyles and working at 3a.m. with Wagner
> blasting on the phono makes for good press but you wouldn't want them
> pissing in the fireplace while trying to sell their art to the kind of
> people that can afford to buy it. I have had people tell me that I was
> "dressed awfully nice for an artist." Of course I explained to them that
> as a starving artist there simply wasn't any food for me to spill on
> myself but if they would only buy something I could go home and eat like
> a peasant. They didn't buy.

[But they admired your leanness and fashionable pallor...]

> I have run into situations mentioned by some of the gripers but on
> the whole artists are treated quite fairly where I live. I donate pieces
> regularly to an annual AIDS benefit / auction and am given admission for
> myself and a guest including drink tickets. Alas, there is no food to
> smear on my apparel. I also volunteer my time to two art organizations
> which makes me carry some of the responsibility for how they are

> conducted. Basically. if you don't like how they do things at City Hall
> run for office.
>
> Now for my question. This ng has an outstanding cadre of people who

> genuinely discuss aesthetics and mechanics, unfortunately I am a painter
> ( it's not unfortunate that I paint, rather the discussions don't really
> apply to my medium ). Does anyone here know of another ng dealing with
> 2-D art that isn't full of SPAM and B.S.?
>
> Thanks to all, and never stop creating,
>
>
> t

[Well, you could convert, and become a sculptor... Of course, you're welcome
here, even if you don't- we consider paintings to be a sort of sculpture,
just somewhat flat (work up that impasto!). Or you could hang in there with
R.A.F., ignore the stuff that bothers you, and try to set a good example.
Spam is something that plagues all unmoderated newsgroups; the better they
are propagated the more they get. This one is fairly obscure, so we don't
get that much (knock wood). And B. S. is fertilizer, where would art be
without it? If you've got the energy, you could start a Usenet newsgroup;
call it rec.art.painting if you want to stay in the established hierarchy.
You post a Request for Discussion, have a vote, and submit it to the Powers
That Be. You can start it as a moderated group if you wish- all messages
will be routed through you (or whoever you designate to be the moderator).
It's not as hard to start a group in the "alt" category- you basically just
have to send out a "control message" in the proper form. It's even easier to
start a forum on a private website; and you can moderate it
if you wish.]

Andrew Werby
http://unitedartworks.com

[Dan Spector]

Let's look at the phenomenon more closely and objectively.
WHY are artists considered some sort of noble savage, not exactly
welcome in society?
Well, look at civil engineers. They go to school and then get a job, a
very demanding one, and rise through the ranks with age and
experience-and perhaps brilliance. Perfectly welcome in society.

Artists may go to school too, and start doing art, but usually not for
pay. So they get whatever kind of job to keep themselves going. At
night, when the engineer is at home with family, our artist is in the
shed. If he has a family, he has to split his leisure time.
Then he tries to market his work. The engineer has to, too, but he does
it during the day--part of the job.
If the artist succeeds, his life can start to resemble the engineer's--
work all day at the art, evenings for friends and family-- but almost
always at a far lower payscale.
What I am getting at is the idea that artists will work extremely hard
for very little monetary compensation or security. This flies in the
face of economic theory, and strikes regular people as being stupid or
unrealistic. Since our customers are usually quite successful on the
material plane, we must appear really weird.
We may get all excited about certain artists and movements, while they
consider it all to be a tempest in a teapot, interesting perhaps and
nice to have a cultural veneer, but not important. After all, art is
meant to decorate walls and gardens.
To further complicate things, everyone has seen really simplistic, awful
art in bigtime galleries at high prices from time to time. I'm thinking
of a show of giant daisy paintings in a 57th St. gallery: expensive real
estate. The daisies all had pastel petals, all pretty much alike. Sure,
they would be a splash of color; but the prices should have reflected
long serious work, not starving-artist crapola. And let's not even get
into bottles of pee and sliced farm animals!
So our own marketplace seems ridiculous. How can our civil engineer take
us seriously? If we meet at a society benefit, what would we have in
common? Oddly enough, we may be of equal I.Q. and ambition. But that
might make our choices seem all the stranger.

--
Dan Spector
<arch...@earthlink.net>
http://www.archicast.com

----------
In article <R2cP6.30426$%i7.25...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Andrew

[Andrew Werby]

[A pretty good analysis, Dan. Are you starting to wish you'd gone to
engineering school? Remember, many of those engineers secretly wish they'd
had the guts to become artists, and lived their dreams. So along with the
incomprehension and contempt, there's an admixture of envy. But this isn't a
reason not to invite artists to a benefit- if they did that, it would be
like a zoo with no animals...]

Andrew Werby
http://unitedartworks.com

[Dan Spector]

I went to industrial design school (R I Sch of Design) so engineers
think I'm an artist while artists think I'm an engineer.
Yeah, they say they wish they'd followed the muse, but they also wish
they'd run off and joined the circus sometimes. Or been firemen.
Anything to escape memos and meetings.
--
Dan
<arch...@earthlink.net>
http://www.archicast.com

----------
In article <NmcS6.56765$%i7.43...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Andrew

[R H Menzel]

I went to the High School of Art & Design, so most people think I'm an
idiot. I'd like to follow my muse to a tropical beach with a couple of
nubile women. Ah, merde! Back to my memos and meetings.
Dan Spector <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:H_rS6.14698$S2.12...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Nicola Eykyn]

Dan, you are talking with forked head. Anyone who has ever visited your
site will know that in addition to being an artist, you are also a very
skilled artisan . And maybe it is on that level (restoration/recreation)
that you can meet the civil engineer on his own ground, and perhaps at the
same pay level.

Does any art-student go to college other than for his own need?

I am not trained, but I carve stone as a need, or a pasttime. Recent luck
got a small sandstone figure included in the Royal Academy of Arts 234th
Summer Exhibition in Piccadilly, London, and also included in their
Illustrated Guide. I won't make any money out of it because I have never
exhibited before, and put it in Not For Sale. Its neighbouring exhibit, a
most beautifully patinated Bronze Fig by a professional London sculptor,
ex-ceramisist, called Veda Hallowes, had sold 8 editions out of 9 before the
exhibition even began (June 5th - August 13th), and not only that, she has
had enquiries from another 7 people during the following week: plus
enquiries from Corporate People considering her "genre" of work for Public
Buildings.

For this particular Exhibition each of us had an equal chance: The Summer
Exhibition is traditionally the showcase of Royal Academicians (of which
there are only 80), Senior Academicians (over 75 years old, and 25 of them)
and the odd Honorary Members. In addition there is a huge "open submission",
open to "All Artists without limitation of nationality or age". And it was
in the latter category that both Veda and I got in.
13,000 odd submissions (glazed, unglazed or sculpture) are considered, and
whittled down to 1180 actual exhibits (including the work of RAs), of which
108 were sculpture..

Here the talented amateur or professional, who is accepted, and who makes
beautiful "things" that people want to possess/feel/see or whatever, has a
huge potential whaat market place.

There may well be others who, to quote John Russell's book on Francis Bacon,
say "What should a picture be in the year 1945?", and design to it! (Which
Bacon did not!)

There will always be those who do it for a need: always those whose need
takes them naturally in the direction of what people want (and make money) :
and always those who contrive to sell "to a fashion" and do, whilst the
fashion lasts. And it is all available "Art".

Next big question: at what point does the compulsive hobbyist say "I too
want to make money": and what does he loose by saying so? More, important,
will it stop him if he doesn't?

Nicola Eykyn

Dan Spector <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:IL7S6.12320$S2.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...