History of cold cast bronze
Will
Does anyone know about the true origins of cold cast bronze? I think I
read about Rodin using Bronze powders with plaster, but does anyone
know where or who the first one came from?
Thanks in advance,
Will
Gary Oblock
Will --
I don't know, but I'd like to ask everyone if the name cold cast bronze
leaves them cold? Personally, since it's not really bronze, I'd prefer that
sculptors use a name like faux bronze or something to that effect....
Well?
-- Gary Oblock
--
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Santa Clara, CA
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Billy Hiebert
version "Bronzini". I think what matters is that it not be confused with
"hot cast bronze". Especially for the buyer. Some look upon cold cast as
an imitation or faux. I don't think of it as an imitation, just bronze
in a different form. It is real bronze, held together with a binder,
usually more bronze than binder. If you buy a Remington, and are told it
is cast bronze, will you be disturbed to find out that parts of it are
not cast? The reins, rope, and other parts may be fabricated from wire.
And there could be welds that are not cast. Is a clear plastic just
imitation glass? It's all about drawing lines and creating borders,
something we are compelled to do. --Billy
Gary Oblock wrote:
>
>
> Will --
>
> I don't know, but I'd like to ask everyone if the name cold cast bronze
> leaves them cold? Personally, since it's not really bronze, I'd prefer that
> sculptors use a name like faux bronze or something to that effect....
>
> Well?
>
> -- Gary Oblock
>
> --
> Bronze Dreams
> Santa Clara, CA
> http://www.bronzedreams.com
> -------------- ad for the hosting service I use ---------------
> Free Web Hosting with Domain Registration or transfer
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>
>
>
--
Billy Hiebert (510)654-7488
HIEBERT SCULPTURE WORKS
http://www.hieberts.com
Gary Oblock
Billy --
How about something a little more honest to buyer like "powdered bronze and glue?"
If you can't take a propane touch to it and apply a patina then the words cast bronze
in the phrase "cold cast bronze" are a bit deceptive.
-- Gary
George Graham
distributers/agents/gallery owners, call them what you will, attempting to
increase the value of work by using a vocabulary that misappropriates the
materials but adds to the 'art'?
Cast resin seems to me about right. Though on occasion I have 'laid up' the
exterior coat of gel with different fillers. I did see one piece (not mine)
labelled, cold cast marble.
George
Henri
"Billy Hiebert" <b...@hieberts.com> wrote in message
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> There have been other names such as "Bonded Bronze", or the Italian
> version "Bronzini". I think what matters is that it not be confused with
> "hot cast bronze". Especially for the buyer. Some look upon cold cast as
> an imitation or faux. I don't think of it as an imitation, just bronze in
> a different form. It is real bronze, held together with a binder, usually
> more bronze than binder. If you buy a Remington, and are told it is cast
> bronze, will you be disturbed to find out that parts of it are not cast?
> The reins, rope, and other parts may be fabricated from wire. And there
> could be welds that are not cast. Is a clear plastic just imitation glass?
> It's all about drawing lines and creating borders, something we are
> compelled to do. --Billy
>
The problem may be twofold. One it is trying to pass off " powdered
bronze in resin" as real bronze. Ebay is considering making sellers
CLEARLY describe the distinction, I guess the problem is that pervasive.
The other problem is it is essentially that plastic/resin.... Not really
from nature.
Glass, marble, metal, wood, - Natural, for the most part. ( I realize bronze
doesn't occur in nature, blah blah, but you get my point.)
Plastic, Resin, - not occurring naturally in nature for the most part, very
synthetic.
I guess if it's clear what you are buying it is okay. I would not cast my
work in it though, not for sale anyway. I have played around with Bondo and
cast some pieces, painted with paint to look like bronze. But I wouldn't
sell them. That's just me though.
Billy Hiebert
"Resin Bonded Bronze" might add to the description. I realize some might
try to misrepresent the material, but I've seen catalogs that list both
"cast bronze" and "cold cast bronze", and they carefully describe the
differences.--Billy
>
> -- Gary
>
> --
> Bronze Dreams
> Santa Clara, CA
> http://www.bronzedreams.com
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>
>
Billy Hiebert
About natural/synthetic, I guess I'm missing your point. Can only
natural materials be used in sculpture?
scul...@tfb.com
which is truthful and descriptive.
But don't cast anything other than giftware in it.%0
Henri
>>
> I agree, full disclosure is required, but it doesn't prevent dishonesty.
> About natural/synthetic, I guess I'm missing your point. Can only natural
> materials be used in sculpture?
Natural materials are classier in my opinion and to most of the general
population, I suppose. This is reflected by price and terminology.
Hence the Natural terms: " all natural wood" , "mahogany", " oak" " Marble"
, " Bronze" , " Gold", " Silver" " Ivory" etc.
Versus: " particle board " " oak type finish" " cast stone" " Bonded
bronze" " Electroplated" , " French Ivory" " plastic" etc. ( side note, I
don't and wouldn't own most types of Ivory)
I think there is also something nice in Bronze that it will outlast me, even
if in a fire, unless it melts. I mean 3000 years from now it's still
around. Based on what I have seen with resins, I don't think 3000 years
from now it will be around.
Conceivably any type of material can be used for sculpture that will
function. I just think that using resin, which translates to me as plastic
is not doing justice to your work. Your work would be so much nicer in
bronze or even aluminum given the ' space age , scientific, funky' look of
your work.
Imagine a nice alternating bronze and Verde patina on some of your pieces,,
very nice.
Even lead would be neat. Lead can conceivable be cast in a silicone mold,
so I am told anyway. I think silicone is good for up to 600 degrees. Lead
melts at about the same.
Lead tire weights, often free from tire shops..........
Regards,
Henri
Gary Oblock
Henri --
Oak is also much more durable that particle board. The same comparison
could be made between lost wax cast bronze and bronze powder with glue.
-- Gary
Gary Oblock
That sounds reasonable but not everyone is as ethical as you.
About your second point have you noticed that resin sculpture is
being accepted in major art shows? I've seen some of it NSS shows
and I find it appalling.
-- Gary
scul...@tfb.com
I don't think there is anything wrong with using resin in fine art-
Lucite actually looks pretty good....
However, I think what you are responding to is the use of resin to FAKE
another medium...
Why try and make resin look like bronze? Because its cheaper... Its a
form of hoodwinking.... if you want it to look like bronze, make it out
of bronze.....
I think its fine to use resins as long as you are using resins BECAUSE
of the qualities the resin has that other media do not...translucency,
flexibility, woven reinforcing material embedded within....
I thinks its a matter of using the media in an aesthetic way that
capitalizes on the unique appearances or structural properties of
resins.
But it has to be done in a way that looks good.
christopher
Gary Oblock
Christopher --
Acrylic (PMMA) is a tough and durable material that is, in the right hands, quite
elegant. On the other hand your typical resin does not even come close to PMMA's
mechanical, chemical or esthetic qualities. In addition 99% of the time it masquerades
as something its not which taints it in my mind. I think plaster is much better suited
for fine art than resin.
Christopher, these are just my silly personal opinions/prejudices and I hope you don't
take them too seriously.
scul...@tfb.com
seriously?
Yeah- I don't see resin used well hardly at all... But again- I think
what offends is the way people try to pretend its not resin- that its
Faux porcelain- or faux bronze....
You can do somethings with resin that no other material can really do-
that's what to use it for...
christopher
Huntleys...@yahoo.com
I did not mean for you to take offence to the term 'Cold Cast Bronze'.
Thankyou for the tangent infomation, but I already know the properties
of the product. I have worked with both actual cast bronze and "faux
bronze". Believe me, I love actual bronze too, but for the project I am
doing at the moment I need to know the actual beginnings of "cold cast
bronze/bonded bronze' or whatever else you'd like to call it. I didn't
know that there was such a prejudice against it. But I will add it to
any additional information that you can give me on the
product/processes origins.
Thankyou in advance
-Will
SL
http://www.smooth-on.com/default.htm
Steve L.
<Huntleys...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Gary Oblock
Will --
I didn't take any offense when you used the term. But, I guess you now know
the feelings some of us on alt.sculpture have about the that name. ;-)
Since, its basically resin mixed with powdered bronze it must be newer than
the resin itself. Find when suitable resins became generally availability and
you've probably got the date you want.
George Graham
didn't read into the discussion any animosity towards the material. The
adverse comments seemed to me to be on the way the 'cold cast bronze'
description was being used.
At an Annual Exhibition in Edinburgh, a sculpture, is selected by a
foundry, for casting in bronze, as a prize. As most of the sculpture entries
tend to be of the resin type, this seems to me to be a very good
opportunity for impecunious scupltors to get their work cast.
Is Edinburgh the only place impecunious artists hang out- or in?
George
scul...@tfb.com
biggest problem is that it seldom looks much like bronze at all.
History, eh.... well here's what little I know about it.
Real cold cast bronze was a mixture of actual Powdered Bronze and
polyester resin. It first started appearing in the mid sixties, but
really took off in the 70s as the casting resins began to improve.
I remember my first experiments with it- ordering a 50 lb can of
powdered bronze and being surprised by the TINY can they sent me. (
of course, bronze is really heavy- I guess I figured the powdered type
would be, i don't know, fluffier?)
There were two big problems with cold cast bronze- one was settling.
The bronze is so heavy that it settles to the bottom of the mold before
the resin can gel. Too much bronze and it can actually squeeze so
much resin out of the bottom of the mold that there isn't enough left
to act as a matrix fro the bronze powder.
The other problem was the color- the castings came out looking like
chocolate bunnies. You had to buff the heck out of them to bring out
the bronze color, but then they would slowly turn back to chocolate no
matter what you did to seal them. The chocolate color literally oozed
out from around the individual grains of bronze.
For any full depth figure, there would be noticable 'banding' of color,
say, in an outstretched arm, where the top pf the arm, which was down
during casting, would be bright bronze and the underside of the arm
have not enough bronze to get any buffed shine on it.
For these reasons, cold cast bronze looked best when used to cast
reliefs (all bottom of the mold) and when rotationally molded- that is-
keep the resin mixing the whole time it is liquid to keep the bronze in
suspension.
Another trick was to wash the frshly buffed surface with muriatic acid
to create a verdigris patina that held up better.
(used this on a set of coldcast relief panels we made for the doors of
the statuary I apprenticed at- actually had some guys pry the panels
off in the dark of night thinking they could sell the 'bronze' for
scrap)
By the early 80s you started to see cold cast bronze without any bronze
at all- they started using the COLORED aluminum powders available for
metalflake paints.
The idea being that a bronze colored aluminum would stay in suspension
better, and not have the bad chocolate ooze problem.
Well- the bronze colored aluminums worked much better at giving a
unifrom bronze color to the surface- but they are not actually bronze-
so calling them cold cast brinze is really misleading.
And, you can also electroplate a resin casting with brass or copper or
both by painting the surface with an electrolyte and using a standard
wet plating process.
Another technique that has been used is vapor deposition- which is a
dry process- where copper or brass is vaporised in a vacuum chamber and
electrostatically deposited on the surface of a resin casting. This
can give a mirror smooth surface of pure metal, albeit only a few
hundred molucules thick.
Both of these surface treatments have been called cold cast bronze-
even though they are not cast.
More recenlty, the 90s saw a big improvement in cold casting technique
that used a thicker liquid resin to help real bronze stay in
suspension, coupled with a rotational technique in casting to keep the
material well agitated. ( rotation can be as simple as rolling a mold
around on a table by hand)
The 90s also saw the emergence of several methods of surfacing a resin
casting with a powdered bronze in a urethane coating. Like painting
the surface with bronze.
The urethane clearcoats used actually seal the bronze better than poly
resin and better avoid the chocolate bunnie effect.-
christopher
Huntleys...@yahoo.com
Thankyou most of all to Christopher who answered my original question.
All the best,
Will
Cat
I would not use it for my work either, neither for selling nor for myself.
However, one thing I would consider is "cement fondu" for certain
sculptures,
which is a way of casting cement.
It gives an impression of concrete or stone depending on the mix you make
up.
--
CatherinA Laugel
Sculptor
www.catlaugel.com
__________________________________________________
"Sometimes it takes a long time to play like myself." Miles Davis
"Henri" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lxtce.104$QR1...@fe04.lga...
Dan S
so scarce. Where has it gone?
A dozen years ago, photo industry was wailing about the availability/cost of
silver. Now we're upset over the cost of inkjet cartridges. But black toner
is cheap!
Dan
----------
In article <428fdebc$0$26114$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, "Cat"
Dan S
portland gray.
dan
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In article <428fdebc$0$26114$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, "Cat"
<c...@laugel.plus.com> wrote:
GaryR52
it is an alloy. Anyway, cold cast bronze is just powdered bronze suspended
in polyester or acrylic resin. It's cheaper than bronze casting not becuase
of the cost of the metal, but because of the cost of using a foundry's
services, which don't come cheap.
Gary
"Dan S" <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Dan S
coldcast brz is done.
I use tiny medicine bottles of it from Pearl .. add them to my paint.
Dan
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In article <EmX%e.28135$UI.2042@okepread05>, "GaryR52" <gar...@cox.net>
wrote:
GaryR52
in nature, it has to be made by human beings, which is why it costs so much.
It's the process of it's manufacture that drives the price.
Gary
"Dan S" <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Dan S
must be mined and refined. I think Cu is getting scarce.
Dan
website back
--
Dan Spector 901 323 8717
arch...@earthlink.net
http://www.archicast.com
----------
GaryR52
used every day in construction projects, for roofing. In fact, I passed by a
new drive-through bank under construction and they're using copper flashing
for the guttering, instead of galvanized steel or aluminum. But, you're
right to mention that it needs to be mined, and therein lies your high
price. As I said, it's a man-made material and has to be smelted from
copper, tin, zinc and brass. It isn't found lying about on the ground and
you can't mine bronze, either. It has to be manufactured. Any raw material
that has a lot of processing involved in its creation is going to be
expensive.
Gary
"Dan S" <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Gary Waller
of construction, at this time, is paying such a premium for qualified
labor - the material costs are only a small fraction - assuming you
could even find a sheet metal worker or shop with a history of working
copper.
Canada is/was a major copper producing country. They found with those
pesky health and safety laws, it was much cheaper to licence their
technology to countries like Chile, China etc. The safety and
environmental conditions are appalling. I have seen pictures of workers
in Chile working over sulphur vats, on wooden planks, with bandannas as
ventilation - one slip - molten sulphur. The true Gates of Hell.
Everything owned by multinational corporations and (often corrupt)
national cartels.
I don't know what these corporations are thinking. Maybe turn the
potential competition into a toxic waste dump, and then sell your stash
at a premium - meeting all safety and environmental concerns? This seems
to be the only logical explanation. The industries moving "offshore" are
increasing daily. This is why we need a global solution holding
international corporations responsible for their decisions.
So the short answer is that you are both right - copper/bronze/brass/tin
IS cheap - buts its TRUE cost is vastly undervalued from a global and
environmental perspective.
Gary in Vancouver
GaryR52
believe it. It's just a crappy faux 19th century hodge-podge drive-through
bank. What a waste! But, it's their money, I guess.
Gary R.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
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