PROPOSAL: alt.art.sculpture
barbara pattist
wrote:
>Proposal:
>I propose the creation of a newsgroup to be called alt.art.sculpture.
>
>Description:
>A newsgroup for discussion of Fine Art and Sculptoring, History of
>Sculptoring and Cultural influence on Sculpturing
>
>Reason:
>There is currently only one newsgroup for sculptors.
>Culturally - Philosophical aspects are felt unwelcome for the majority
>of members.
If the majority find the topic unwelcome, where will you find users to
support the new group? Without ten or so messages per day on a
subject, a group has trouble propagating to enough servers to be
viable.
I took a look at the charter found at:
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/alt/alt.sculpture.Z
There is nothing in the charter that I see that would make the
discussion of the cultural aspects of sculpture unwelcome.
Charter:
Alt.sculpture is intended to be a usenet group that focuses on the
issues unique to sculpture, defined as the making of three-
dimensional artifacts with or without utilitarian function. This is a
distinct discipline that should have a group of its own, separate from
those dominated by two-dimensional artists.
Alt.sculpture would be for discussion of: works of sculpture,
including reviews of shows, web sites, books, and installations;
techniques of sculpture, including (but not limited to) carving,
casting, modeling, and assemblage in all three-dimensional media;
theories of art as they relate to sculpture, and opportunities for
creating, showing, and commissioning sculpture. The group would not be
restricted to the discussion of fine art sculpture; modelmakers,
prototypers, patternmakers, and others involved in making 3-d objects
would be welcome to participate.
barbara p.
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Steven Whyte
J. C. Chism
my creativity!
CROCUSDES
Count me out. This group seems to serve our general purposes very well. Those
who don't care for a particular topic simply don't have to read it. I see no
problem here. There are always grumblers in every group whether it's a
newsgroup or a mail list. Folks who wish to be extremely focused on a singular
topic will just have to tolerate the variety because there are others within
the same group who don't share similar feelings.
Chris Ray - sculptor
http://www.chrisray.com
Zoran Baric
Rick Smith wrote:
>
> I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time seeing where the cultural and
> philosophical aspects of sculpture are not welcome in this newsgroup.
> Granted they're not discussed that much, but that's the decision of
> the people who read this newsgroup, not the charter of the group. By
> all means start your own newsgroup but hey, don't denegrate this one.
>
> Rick Smith
Rick,
There is no attention to degenerate this group. All discussions are very
valuable.
By creating another group for Sculptors we will accentuate importance of
sculpturing in our cultures. The point is that historians and philosophers
will feel more comfortable to join - even tough, they might not be an
Artists, but they will greatly contribute. Don't you think so?
By the way, I still think that majority prefers technical aspect of
discussions. There is nothing wrong with that. It does not mean a less value
in my dictionary.
Regards,
Zorba
Zoran Baric
barbara pattist wrote:
> If the majority find the topic unwelcome, where will you find users to
> support the new group? Without ten or so messages per day on a
> subject, a group has trouble propagating to enough servers to be
> viable.
>
Barbara,
We have a situation that people of considerable value are unwilling to
discuss utilitarian issues of art and sculpturing in alt. sculpture. If
you insist I will give you an example.
Take a look and you will find that subjects related to Sociology have 15 to
70 replies.
There will be more freedom in the air - and I expect "explosions" in that
new group.
>
> I took a look at the charter found at:
> ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/alt/alt.sculpture.Z
>
> There is nothing in the charter that I see that would make the
> discussion of the cultural aspects of sculpture unwelcome.
>
It might not be unwelcome, but majority of members are not participating.
Lack of their participation can be seen as ignorance.
> Charter:
> Alt.sculpture is intended to be a usenet group that focuses on the
> issues unique to sculpture, defined as the making of three-
> dimensional artifacts with or without utilitarian function. This is a
> distinct discipline that should have a group of its own, separate from
> those dominated by two-dimensional artists.
>
What are the benefits of having only one group? Give me a valid argument
and I will change my mind. I promise.
>
> Alt.sculpture would be for discussion of: works of sculpture,
> including reviews of shows, web sites, books, and installations;
> techniques of sculpture, including (but not limited to) carving,
> casting, modeling, and assemblage in all three-dimensional media;
> theories of art as they relate to sculpture, and opportunities for
> creating, showing, and commissioning sculpture. The group would not be
> restricted to the discussion of fine art sculpture; modelmakers,
> prototypers, patternmakers, and others involved in making 3-d objects
> would be welcome to participate.
>
>
Please, see my reply to Rick, but on top of that: since we have so many
topics discussed - we will have a situation of expired directory with
discussions going on. This is about to happen with directory - "Eroticism
ver. Vulgarism. Take a look!
Waiting for your reply.
Zorba
Zoran Baric
Steven Whyte wrote:
> Yes great do it, we will subscribe...
>
> http://www.sculpture.co.uk/agents.html
Thanks Steven.
I saw your site. Interesting idea. I'll give 15%.
Take care,
Zorba
Zoran Baric
"J. C. Chism" wrote:
> Hang around. You may change your mind. I find this group to be conducive to
> my creativity!
Thanks J.C.
I thought that many (not all) feel bothered with "un-material" discussions.
Zorba
Studio120
>Those
>who don't care for a particular topic simply don't have to read it. I see no
>problem here.
I agree. I think that there's plenty of room for all in here! Most who would
want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup. Let the horizons remain
broad!
Kevin Conlon
Studio 120
2201 Bull Street, #309
Savannah, GA 31401
Cathy Morgan
I'm strongly in favor of keeping this as the sole sculpture site, with a
variety of topics and sculptors. Lots more fun and stimulating.
--
Cathy Morgan, Morgan Sculpture
iron and mixed media vessel forms
Zoran Baric
Cathy Morgan wrote:
OK. Cathy,
My first impression while looking for the groupS related to sculpturing was
tragic acknowledgment: "My Good! There is ONLY ONE group for sculptors. Just
that fact is presenting a weak image of sculpturing. What do you think? As I
asked Barbara, you, please tell me too; what are the benefits of having only
one group?
Convince me, and others, that we do not need another group. I listen - that's
what discussions are for!
Regards,
Zorba
CROCUSDES
>variety of topics and sculptors. Lots more fun and stimulating.
Absolutely Cathy and keeping this place open ended we just never know what
might crop up unexpectedly that will be interesting.
Liberty
> My first impression while looking for the groupS related to sculpturing was
> tragic acknowledgment: "My Good! There is ONLY ONE group for sculptors. Just
> that fact is presenting a weak image of sculpturing. What do you think? As I
> asked Barbara, you, please tell me too; what are the benefits of having only
> one group?
> Convince me, and others, that we do not need another group. I listen - that's
> what discussions are for!
The discussions on alt.config are to convince newsadmins that the group is
needed. Not to convince anyone that it is not needed. The proof falls upon
the newgroup proposal. The proposal should document a need, based on demand
of expected usage. This is usually based on hard numbers.
Is alt.sculpture a busy newsgroup? It does seem poorly named.
--
Liberty ...
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Liberty :Freedom is first earned
liberty...@revolutionist.com :by demanding it. It's lost by
:forgetting its value.
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Zoran Baric
> The discussions on alt.config are to convince newsadmins that the group is
> needed. Not to convince anyone that it is not needed. The proof falls upon
> the newgroup proposal. The proposal should document a need, based on demand
> of expected usage. This is usually based on hard numbers.
>
> Is alt.sculpture a busy newsgroup? It does seem poorly named.
Liberty,
Group by itself is not important. What it is representing is important. If we fail
to be convinced that is not needed - it will be easier to convince that is needed.
My individual belief will not have effect if it is not supported. This can relate
to some modern art too. Could it?
We have a situation that more value is given to the image of an existing group than
what it presents. More value is given to the egoism than to the progressive spirit.
Simply: no need - no motivation - no creation.
Regards from
Zorba
P.S. It is getting busier day by day. You are right, name could be better.
Andrew Werby
Liberty<liberty...@revolutionist.com> wrote:
> Zoran Baric <zba...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>
> > My first impression while looking for the groupS related to sculpturing was
> > tragic acknowledgment: "My Good! There is ONLY ONE group for sculptors. Just
> > that fact is presenting a weak image of sculpturing.
[As the person who started this group, I suppose I should give my opinion.
Newsgroups exist to give people a place to talk about various topics, not
to present some particular image to the world. I strove to make
alt.sculpture as inclusive a place as possible, to the extent that I
decided not to put it in the alt.art hierarchy, since there are many people
I wanted to hear from who, although they make various objects, don't
necessarily call them "art", or to have to defend them as such. The word
"Art" in itself seems extremely resistant to definition, with some people
using it to describe only the art they like, others making distinctions
between it and "Craft" and others allowing it to mean just about anything.
Previous to this, there were no newsgroups devoted to sculpture, and all
sculpture-related discussion had to take place in rec.arts.fine. There were
some people at the time who regretted the establishment of alt.sculpture,
fearing it would disperse the already small number of people interested in
discussing art and sculptural issues. Indeed, this group has only recently
gone into double-digit postings, and I feel it would be a shame to siphon
away readership at this point. Nobody posting to the group, to my knowledge,
has ever expressed a problem with philosophical discussion of sculpture-
related issues, so it is difficult to see how Mr. Baric comes to the
conclusion they aren't welcome here. This sort of thing is specifically
authorized in the group's charter.]
What do you think? As I
> > asked Barbara, you, please tell me too; what are the benefits of having only
> > one group?
[The more groups there are which duplicate each other's subject matter, the
more dilute the already small base of subscribers becomes. It is convenient
to be able to monitor only one group, and be assured that one is up to date
on the topics discussed. If there was a huge volume of postings from some
particular group of sculptors, say those who work in bronze, who were
uninterested in the more general conversation, then there would be a valid
reason to split off a group from this one, and call it alt.sculpture.bronze,
for instance. As it is, I think it would do more harm than good to attempt
to split this group, which is just starting to reach critical mass. Having
one lively group seems better to me than lots of dead ones.]
> > Convince me, and others, that we do not need another group. I listen -
that's
> > what discussions are for!
>
> The discussions on alt.config are to convince newsadmins that the group is
> needed. Not to convince anyone that it is not needed. The proof falls upon
> the newgroup proposal. The proposal should document a need, based on demand
> of expected usage. This is usually based on hard numbers.
>
> Is alt.sculpture a busy newsgroup? It does seem poorly named.
[See explanation above about the name. It certainly is not overly busy,
and establishing another opverlapping group would be, in my opinion, a
waste of precious bandwidth. If there is a lot of bandwidth out there to
spare, creating alt.sculpture.binaries might be a good use for it, since
there isn't enough currently allotted to permit the posting of binary
images to the group- but there's plenty of room for discussion.]
Andrew Werby
UNITED ARTWORKS- Sculpture, Jewelry, and other art stuff
http://unitedartworks.com
http://www.computersculpture.com for 3d design tools
CROCUSDES
Andrew you've done an excellent thing by starting this group and it's working
quite well the way it's set up. Thanks for taking the time and having the
initial interest for doing this in the first place.
News groups in general go through cycles where it waxes and wanes and that's
what happens here as well as other places. When the topics become interesting
then folks participate, when not they don't. I've seen plenty of empty rooms
in newgroups where the subject is either limited or too focused.
You did a good job the way you set this up and it's functioning Andrew.
Zoran Baric
>
> . Indeed, this group has only recently
> gone into double-digit postings, and I feel it would be a shame to siphon
> away readership at this point. Nobody posting to the group, to my knowledge,
> has ever expressed a problem with philosophical discussion of sculpture-
> related issues, so it is difficult to see how Mr. Baric comes to the
> conclusion they aren't welcome here. This sort of thing is specifically
> authorized in the group's charter.
>
Andrew,
Do you know why they put McDonalds next to Burger King? - Increase of traffic
undermines the competition problem.
But, anyway, I am giving up for now. Long live alt. sculpture.
They might accuse me for motivating separation of Quebec.
Regards,
Zorba
Aubrey
many, but I think that it is more interesting to read posts from a variety of
people doing a variety of different types of sculpture. I agree that one
lively group is better than several dead ones. I was happy to have found this
one, since I've always had an interest in sculpture, and have found several
people very kind in answering my questions. I think the group is great as it
is. Just my feelings on the matter as someone new giving a first impression.
Aubrey
>
And Aubrey was her name...
A not so very ordinary girl or name.
WIP: Easter egg designs and spring things!
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Zoran Baric
> want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
> does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup.
Kevin,
You just confirmed a need for alt.art.sculpture. Certain areas that are excluded in
present group - might serve, very well, the interests of new alt.art.sculpture.
Zorba
Andrew Werby
[Like what, Zorba? Has anybody ever told you not to post anything here
if it was in any way related to sculpture? What's your problem? It seems
you've felt fairly free to share whatever was on your mind- have you been
holding back for fear of disapproval? Go ahead, get it off your chest,
whatever it is.]
Zoran Baric
> > > Most who would
> > > want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
> > > does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup.
> >
> > Kevin,
> >
> > You just confirmed a need for alt.art.sculpture. Certain areas that are
> excluded in
> > present group - might serve, very well, the interests of new
> alt.art.sculpture.
> >
> > Zorba
>
> [Like what, Zorba? Has anybody ever told you not to post anything here
> if it was in any way related to sculpture? What's your problem? It seems
> you've felt fairly free to share whatever was on your mind- have you been
> holding back for fear of disapproval? Go ahead, get it off your chest,
> whatever it is.]
>
Andrew,
I am just saying that Kevin expressed the need for another group. Didn't he?
Let me tell you something - why I think, actually thought, that there is a need
for another group.
I was getting lazy. I wanted to make it easier on myself.
This group is like a small Culture and I am the artist whose work has a minimal
effect on this Culture.
I wanted to create a new Culture instead of being a "mirror" of existing Culture
and gradually bring it to the point where my work can be understood.
Regards,
Zorba
Jay Denebeim
Zoran Baric <zba...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>> > > Most who would
>> > > want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
>> > > does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup.
>I am just saying that Kevin expressed the need for another group. Didn't he?
Um, no that's not what he said. He said that the people who try to
exclude conversation are wrong, not that there should be a new newsgroup.
Jay
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* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
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Zoran Baric
Jay Denebeim wrote:
> In article <36E2D857...@sprint.ca>,
> Zoran Baric <zba...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> > > Most who would
> >> > > want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
> >> > > does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup.
>
> >I am just saying that Kevin expressed the need for another group. Didn't he?
>
> Um, no that's not what he said. He said that the people who try to
> exclude conversation are wrong, not that there should be a new newsgroup.
I see now that you might be right.
The way I understood:
Those excluding certain areas of discussion, are doing so - because these discussions
does not serve the interests of the newsgroup.
Zorba
CROCUSDES
>(snip) This group is like a small Culture and I am the artist whose work has a
>minimal
>effect on this Culture.
>I wanted to create a new Culture instead of being a "mirror" of existing
>Culture
>and gradually bring it to the point where my work can be understood.
Oh heavens Zorba, don't you think that all of us have these feelings more or
less? If you want to have any effect on the "culture" you just do what you do
and hope for the best or you flog your works in some outrageous way.
Another newsgroup isn't going to do a thing for your ambitions. Neither will
this one for that matter.
You want to be a "mirror" of a new culture? That's an odd statement to make
because if the new culture you want to mirror doesn't exist then where's the
reflection coming from? I'm just pulling your chain, of course but I know you
just like to throw this stuff out there to get us cookin'. Well, what the
hell, why not.
Zoran Baric
> Oh heavens Zorba, don't you think that all of us have these feelings more or
> less? If you want to have any effect on the "culture" you just do what you do
> and hope for the best or you flog your works in some outrageous way.
Chris,
Glad to see you back on my battle field.
I am not JUST planning to hope for the best, but I'll try to avoid outrageousness.
If I don't, I'm sure that you'll let me know.
> Another newsgroup isn't going to do a thing for your ambitions. Neither will
> this one for that matter.
>
It is doing alredy Chris - I can not keep up with the private e-mail. A new group
was not my idea.
To be honest with you, even in regard to your age and wisdom, you sound too sure
about many things.
I am "something" that you can not read so easily - simply, because you are not
familiar with the alien kind - I am representing.
>
> You want to be a "mirror" of a new culture? That's an odd statement to make
> because if the new culture you want to mirror doesn't exist then where's the
> reflection coming from? I'm just pulling your chain, of course but I know you
> just like to throw this stuff out there to get us cookin'. Well, what the
> hell, why not.
So sorry to find out that you are not familiar with discussions between Chic and
Kevin - taking place under "Eroticism ver. Vulgarism." Furthermore, I did not
relate a mirror to the "new culture."
The terminology "mirror and visionary of the culture" was introduced by Mr. Kevin
Conlon.
Here is the section from the article:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Conlon wrote:
Here's what I was talking about! You and I both recognize that there are
artists that operate out of, and even counter to, the cultural mainstream. I
was simply stating that you seem to advocate that unless an artist's work is
compatible with (more or less) his or her culture, then he or she has no chance
of affecting and/or changing that stream.
The point I was trying to make is that an artist who is submersed in the
cultural mainstream becomes nothing more than a mirror, rather than a
visionary. Both "the mirror" and "the visionary" are artists, but I think most
artists would prefer to think of themselves as visionaries. Either way, it's a
noble profession!
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Regards,
Zorba
Charles Mcgregor
from Zoran Baric <zba...@sprint.ca> contains these words:
------------------------
> Kevin Conlon wrote:
> Here's what I was talking about! You and I both recognize that there are
> artists that operate out of, and even counter to, the cultural mainstream. I
> was simply stating that you seem to advocate that unless an artist's work is
> compatible with (more or less) his or her culture, then he or she has no chance
> of affecting and/or changing that stream.
Yes, but the 'more or less' can be extensive, direction is also important.
The 'cultural' artist need do nothing more than have a willingness to
accept all his 'own' ideas based purely on his own intellectual and
subconscious response.
They will, in large part, be imbued naturally with cultural influence.
What I would call the 'non-cultural' artist, rejects ideas purely
BECAUSE they seem(to the artist) to align with the flow of his culture.
> The point I was trying to make is that an artist who is submersed in the
> cultural mainstream becomes nothing more than a mirror, rather than a
> visionary.
Well we disagree here, on three counts in fact, one, I think cultural
heritage can aid visionary art, two, all artists(and everybody else)
are submersed in the cultural mainstream, and three, you cannot coral
the term 'visionary' for those who reject part of their experience.
> Both "the mirror" and "the visionary" are artists, but I think most
> artists would prefer to think of themselves as visionaries. Either way, it's a
> noble profession!
>
Well as I said, IMO, trying to capture the term 'visionary' for those
artists I feel may more accurately be described as 'cultural
rejectionists' is a non sequitur.
Anyway, they are still influenced by culture, albeit subconsciously,
and are therefore still 'mirrors'.
To extend your metaphor, the viewing public are more likely to use a
reasonably flat mirror to view and adjust themselves rather than a
fairground distorting one.
If the intent is only to amuse the public, that is O.K.
'The public' must and will participate in cultural evolution via
feedback. Fundamentally, culture is amazingly robust, and I know of
no attempts at cultural engineering that have succeeded without
genuine public acquiescence.
Your mirror analogy is a good one but, IMO, would be better if the
mirror had a means of suggesting more than mere distortion.
regards
chic
phil h.
>>Count me out. This group seems to serve our general purposes very well.
>>Those
>>who don't care for a particular topic simply don't have to read it. I see no
>>problem here.
>
>I agree. I think that there's plenty of room for all in here! Most who would
>want to exclude certain areas of discussion are doing so for an agenda that
>does not serve the interests of the overall newsgroup. Let the horizons remain
>broad!
>Kevin Conlon
>Studio 120
>2201 Bull Street, #309
>Savannah, GA 31401
I must agree with Mr. Conlon. The only thing that may be helpful with
the addition of (art.) would be its inclusion with the other
(alt.art.) ngs. This, in mho would increase traffic and broaden its
user base. This then might lead to the need for more groups. phil h.