budget oil clays?
Bernard Arnest
I'm a college freshman taking a figurative sculpture class just
now. I was interested in this in high school, and the class only
confirmed as much. I intend to take a bronze casting course sooner
than later, although it may not necessarily be next term.
As part of the figurative course, we did just some very elementary
casting in plaster. I noted that when we cast portrait heads, if the
water-based clay was dry it was a profound nuisance to get the plaster
mold off of the clay original. Granted, for more serious work I may
not be using plaster to make the mold, I may use something more
sophisticated. But it raises the question: If I do a life-size head
again, and plan to cast it in a year, can I hollow it out, fire it, and
then make a mold from it even then; or must it be kept quite workably
moist for that entire year, a profound nuisance, and a far more
profound nuisance if it ends up being multiple years before I have the
time to cast a given work?
For a long-term pose, we did a 1/4 scale (18") figure in oil clay.
I enjoyed working with the clay. However, it cost almost $20;
therefore, a 1/2 size standing figure would cost $160, and a full size
head just as much or more. Are there more budget oil clays out there
that you would recommend, or clays that can be purchased in bulk if I
so desire? Or if dried or even fired water clay is not an issue in
casting...?
Also, whose work should I look at for inspiration on poses...?
Websites of artists you admire, with catalogues of their work to
examine? I'm interested in more realistic work, less abstract. We've
done fairly vanilla poses thus far, the class focused on technique as a
beginning. But as I do additional works, I may wish to be more
creative. I have some ideas, but seeing others' work could inspire
many more.
thanks for your advice!
-Bernard Arnest
Bernard Arnest
Henri Beaulieu
I suggest you go to library or buy, From Clay to Bronze by Tuck Langland.
I think most of your questions will be answered there.
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1131929669.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm a college freshman taking a figurative sculpture class just
> now. I was interested in this in high school, and the class only
> confirmed as much. I intend to take a bronze casting course sooner
> than later, although it may not necessarily be next term.
>
> As part of the figurative course, we did just some very elementary
> casting in plaster. I noted that when we cast portrait heads, if the
> water-based clay was dry it was a profound nuisance to get the plaster
> mold off of the clay original.
You cant get the plaster off the clay with under cuts without making many
pieces.... Foundries use flexible rubber with a plaster mother mold.
Granted, for more serious work I may
> not be using plaster to make the mold, I may use something more
> sophisticated. But it raises the question: If I do a life-size head
> again, and plan to cast it in a year, can I hollow it out, fire it, and
> then make a mold from it even then;
yes, you use rubber/silicon.
Its all in the box I suggested.
or must it be kept quite workably
> moist for that entire year, a profound nuisance, and a far more
> profound nuisance if it ends up being multiple years before I have the
> time to cast a given work?
>
> For a long-term pose, we did a 1/4 scale (18") figure in oil clay.
> I enjoyed working with the clay. However, it cost almost $20;
> therefore, a 1/2 size standing figure would cost $160, and a full size
> head just as much or more. Are there more budget oil clays out there
> that you would recommend, or clays that can be purchased in bulk if I
> so desire? Or if dried or even fired water clay is not an issue in
> casting...?
I think Dick Blick has good prices. Steal some from the
school,.....kidding.
>
>
> Also, whose work should I look at for inspiration on poses...?
> Websites of artists you admire, with catalogues of their work to
> examine? I'm interested in more realistic work, less abstract. We've
> done fairly vanilla poses thus far, the class focused on technique as a
> beginning. But as I do additional works, I may wish to be more
> creative. I have some ideas, but seeing others' work could inspire
> many more.
I will let someone else answer most of that one-- Just look at a hot nude
women, that should be all the inspiration you need, unless your are gay,
then look at a man. ;)
Henri
GaryR52
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1131929669.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bernard, you can make your own oil clay from a few readily available
products. Try the following recipe :
Kaolin, 54 parts
Sulphur, 24 parts
Lithopone, 20 parts
Dry mix these materials, add the following materials until the desired
plasticity is
attained:
Lanolin 60 %
Glycerin 40%
Gary
Billy Hiebert
should get a considerable discount if you buy in bulk, as in enough for
a full figure. Also, bulking out the armature will reduce the amount of
clay required.
Water based clays are generally kept moist through the entire process,
and even reused just as oil clay. But there are some artists who dry and
fire their work. Keep in mind the profound shrinkage which occurs during
drying and firing.
And, yes, keeping the clay wet is certainly a bother, but required
especially if a waste mold is to be done. It comes down to personal
preference between oil and water, and quite a few portrait artists
prefer the water clays in spite of the trouble. There is a clay which I
understand was developed for Disney studios which dries slower so less
watering is required. The name is "Wed clay". I have used it and do not
see a big difference, and still prefer the feel of other water clays.
They have apparently added oil to the clay to slow the drying, but it
prevents the clay from sticking to itself as easily as other clays.
Another consideration, is the type of mold which is going to be made.
It is far easier to make a flexible mold from an oil clay than a water
clay. The oil clay is not as soft so it can take more abuse during the
molding process, and the obvious water problem does not exist. Waste
molding is generally easier with water clays.
--
Billy Hiebert
HIEBERT SCULPTURE WORKS
Small Part Injection Molding
http://www.hieberts.com
Gary Waller
This is an interesting recipe. At first I didn't know what Lithopone is
- it is what we call zinc white, not as opaque or weather resistant as
titanium dioxide. Titanium white would be a better and lower cost
substitute. This will be a white clay unless you added pigments.
The titanium and the lanolin would be the most expensive parts. I buy a
50 lb sack of titanium for about $140 (faulty memory here). 5 gallons
glycerine, wholesale, about $120 - 50 lbs. Kaolin from the potters,
about $20. Sulphur, I could cheat and get some free from the sulphur
terminal. Lanolin, i will assume $200 - five gallon- 50 lbs.
So
two sacks kaolin
one sack sulphur
one sack titanium
five gallons Lanolin
five gallons glycerine
$510 to make 300 lbs of oil clay - $1.70 a lb. Sculpture house retails a
"Jolly King" non sulphur plasteline for $85 - 48 lb box or $1.77 a lb.
The cheapest way for a student to buy clay - get a second job,
temporarily at least, and buy a pallet load of clay - get them to drop
it curbside, then load all your boxes into your workspace (sorry -
atelier). You will get the best price. It is easier to work in larger
scales, especially when you don't have to worry about running out.
Mixing vast quantities, shifting boxes - sculpture is hard, physical
work no matter what form you choose. Stay in shape and take care of your
body.
g3
Andrew Werby
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1131929669.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm a college freshman taking a figurative sculpture class just
> now. I was interested in this in high school, and the class only
> confirmed as much. I intend to take a bronze casting course sooner
> than later, although it may not necessarily be next term.
>
> As part of the figurative course, we did just some very elementary
> casting in plaster. I noted that when we cast portrait heads, if the
> water-based clay was dry it was a profound nuisance to get the plaster
> mold off of the clay original.
[Try soaking it in water first. The clay will soften considerably. Of
course, it's best to make your plaster mold in pieces, so it removes without
hanging up in the undercuts, and to demold while the clay's still somewhat
moist.]
Granted, for more serious work I may
> not be using plaster to make the mold, I may use something more
> sophisticated. But it raises the question: If I do a life-size head
> again, and plan to cast it in a year, can I hollow it out, fire it, and
> then make a mold from it even then; or must it be kept quite workably
> moist for that entire year, a profound nuisance, and a far more
> profound nuisance if it ends up being multiple years before I have the
> time to cast a given work?
[Sure, if you used the right kind of clay, you can hollow it out and fire
it. But this works better with clay that has some grog in it; the smoother
clay you might prefer for modeling will have more problems in firing.]
>
> For a long-term pose, we did a 1/4 scale (18") figure in oil clay.
> I enjoyed working with the clay. However, it cost almost $20;
> therefore, a 1/2 size standing figure would cost $160, and a full size
> head just as much or more. Are there more budget oil clays out there
> that you would recommend, or clays that can be purchased in bulk if I
> so desire?
[You usually get quantity reductions if you buy more clay, same as with
most things. Ask about the price by the case, and if you don't get a good
response, go online. But remember; this clay is totally recyclable, so once
you've made your mold, you can use it for the next project. You can also mix
your own. Gary gives one recipe, but be aware that some mold rubbers don't
get along with sulphur; always do a test before committing to a big mold.
There's a recipe for sulpur-free oil clay on my site.]
Or if dried or even fired water clay is not an issue in
> casting...?
[Dry water-based clay is not great for molding, either with plaster or
rubber. If it's fired it can work better, especially if you give it a couple
of layers of paste wax beforehand.]
>
> Also, whose work should I look at for inspiration on poses...?
> Websites of artists you admire, with catalogues of their work to
> examine? I'm interested in more realistic work, less abstract. We've
> done fairly vanilla poses thus far, the class focused on technique as a
> beginning. But as I do additional works, I may wish to be more
> creative. I have some ideas, but seeing others' work could inspire
> many more.
> thanks for your advice!
> -Bernard Arnest
[What sort of poses did you have in mind, Bernard? Do a Google image search
on "contortionist" for some fairly extreme ones (non-vanilla for sure), but
you might have a hard time getting your average model to hold them...]
Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com
>
Bernard Arnest
Thanks! I'll look into mixing my own oil clay first, then ask what
the price is by the case, and compare. Is there any special equipment
for mixing your own, or can you do it in a large kitchen mixing bowl
even? Is it fairly foolproof, so that the price of the components will
directly reflect the full price of making my own clay, or is there a
risk that I might not mix it correctly or get it up to the quality of
store clays and end up turning to store clay anyway?
thanks again!
-Bernard Arnest
Gary Waller
You need a hobart dough mixer - not cheap. A mortar mixer might work -
again not cheap
Bernard Arnest
their own water-based clays, are they using either machine? If so, two
hours spent cleaning out the water-based clay and then cleaning out the
oil-based clay, assuming my time is worth $10/hr, if I save but $20
I've made it worthwhile
Andrew Werby
[It depends on how much you're trying to make at a time. For fairly small
batches, you can do it by hand. You need an electric melting pot for the wax
(in my recipe). Wear a dust mask. Why don't you try it on a small scale
first, and see how much you like it? I don't think that renting a mortar
mixer makes sense - it will add grit you don't need, and cleaning it out
afterwards would be almost impossible.]
Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com
Gary Waller
believe) is get the air out of the clay. You could rent a mortar mixer
but as Andrew says - it will make a mess. What you should do is ask, no
sorry, beg, Andrew for his clay recipe with wax. It may be on
alt.sculpture F.A.Q.s ???
The best thing for waxes is one of those huge electric double roasters
for under $100 brand new. This way you can start small - be careful of
of a fire or burns. Drill a small screw in the dial so it is impossible
to turn it past 200 degrees.
My own preference is wax base clays and hard waxes, you can mix as you
need, as the ambient temperature changes, you can stick piece in the
freezer to make them super hard and easy to polish (or someone suggest a
camera cleaning aerosol), you can heat with a flame to give a gloss
effect, you can gently polish with rubbing alcohol. They are fragile
however, gathering dust, and will melt in the direct sun or in a fire.
When I started I found a wholesale source of microcrystalline waxes used
in the food industry. The softest is for wrapping cheeses - the hardest
is like hard plastic. The source will probably only be helpful if you
are in Canada.
g3
GaryR52
search for a recipe. I found two or three, in fact, one that is based on
motor oil, grease and microcrystalline wax. Not a healthy mixture.
Gary
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:WR8ef.507414$tl2.65994@pd7tw3no...
Gary Waller
GaryR52
Gary
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:Okxef.516774$tl2.493209@pd7tw3no...
Henri Beaulieu
pound I think.
opusbono is one , the guys email name
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:LNuef.508469$oW2.326658@pd7tw1no...
Henri Beaulieu
Man if $20.00 is going to kill you, I think you might want to consider a
side job or painting.
Sculpting is an EXPENSIVE hobby.
Since you refuse to acknowledge me when I tell you to read a certain book,
that you can buy or get from a library, I have to assume you are either a
bit naive or stupid. I hope it is not stupid.
Remember what I told you, you can learn in one book what it takes a man a
lifetime to learn.
As paraphrased ,, per Tuck Langland...
Get a big pot, like a canning kettle or oil drum,, about 18" high,,,place it
on bricks and start a fire under it,,, next, = parts victory brown wax and
new motor oil into the pot.....start with one slab of wax and 3 quarts
oil,,,, heat until wax is melted and liquid,,,,,,now pour in powdered dry
pottery clay,,,,keep adding and stirring until oatmeal type
consistency....when you feel its right (after it cools),, soft and workable
but not mushy,.,,,and you have stirred it as thoroughly as possible ....
pour it onto concrete floor to cool,,,,, work the sludge in your hands a
bit at a time to get rid of graininess and form it into real clay,, it gets
better with use and age.
Just go to dick blick and buy some plastilina, sulfur free. After you get
the book of course. If you can't get that book go to the library and read
every one you can get. That way you will know what we mean when we say
"piece mold" and other terms.
Are you aware that often sculptors used to make a piece mold of plaster off
the piece (water based) they did and then cast it in plaster and then send
the plaster off to the foundry, or keep the plaster as it was? You will be
if you read the book.
READ
Henri
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1132035088.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
GaryR52
10 lbs microcrystalline wax
1/2 gallon 10W5 motor oil
4 lbs plain automotive grease
25 lbs dry clay powder
1. Melt wax, oil and grease together in an electric frying kettle or chip
pan.
2. Once melted, stir in clay slowly.
3. Pour into shallow microwave-safe plastic containers, or into a wet
plaster mold.
Gary R.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:Okxef.516774$tl2.493209@pd7tw3no...
Gary Waller
I wonder if you could friendly it up by adding silicone motor while and
white lithium grease instead of the axle stuff - but them maybe it needs
a petrochemical to dissolve the wax.
Pinging out to Christopher for the price for a pallet of professional
modelling clay? 2000 lbs.
g3
Gary Waller
Henri Beaulieu
"Henri Beaulieu" <hank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:27Aef.12515$GT3...@fe02.lga...
GaryR52
base, but, maybe good ol' Vaseline would make a suitable substitute for the
grease? I'm not sure how it would respond to heat; probably it would become
very liquid.
Gary R.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:FrKef.512354$oW2.271652@pd7tw1no...
GaryR52
economical, due to the cost of the individual ingredients. However,
subsequent batches would be, I would think. It really depends on how much
the recipe makes, versus how much you get in a retail or wholesale package.
Gary R.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:3KKef.512417$oW2.476127@pd7tw1no...
Bernard Arnest
Hmm, it seems the bottom line, if the microcrystalline wax itself
costs just over a dollar a lb., and considering that for now I need
only perhaps 60-120 lbs, and that the art store 5 minutes' walk up the
street sells jolly king for $1.33/lb and Roma for $1.62/lb, that it's
not worth mixing my own...? I was intimidated by the fact that it cost
4X as much as water-based clay, and just thought I'd ask, in case the
markup was very large and significant savings could be had, but it
sounds like that isn't the case? Maybe in the future when I need much
more, and am serious and experienced enough that I might gain
something, too, in being able to customize the clay, and would enjoy
making it besides (whereas for now I just want to get on with more
practice in sculpture) then it would be more worthwhile to make my own.
Henry, yes, I already have the book. I last read it a few months ago
when I wasn't as immediately concerned with molds, that is to say, I
don't remember every word by any means. It's at home; I intend to pick
it up when I visit home for thanksgiving break. And no, $20 won't
break the bank, I was just pricing my time as an example. Naturally if
the savings are only $20 it's not worth the trouble.
thanks!
-Bernard Arnest
GaryR52
Waller a while ago. I just use Roma Plastilina, myself, which is only $4.79
for 2 lbs from Dick Blick. I think there might be some savings in using your
own homemade version if you need the stuff in large quantities, but, if you
don't buy more than, say, ten pounds at a time, like me, the cost savings is
outweighed by the mess and bother, not to mention the cost of the individual
ingredients, especially if bought at retail. So much for that thought.
Gary
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1132186871.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Gary Waller
If I'm on a budget - I use modeling stucco - stucco duro - which I make
myself from a fifteenth century recipe. It models like bread dough, then
it turns to a soft stone, then to a hard stone, all in about a weeks
time. Then I make a polyester and fibreglass shell mold, usually
destroying the sculpt. I then work the inner surface of the shell with
buffs and die grinders. Then I cast a polyester/fiberglass piece -
usually in a godawful color so it never gets sold accidentally. I use a
tooling gelcoat for the first layer. From this 'plug' I continue to
polish and adjust. Then I have master plug from which I can make
hundreds of lowcost castings. The secret is to preserve artistic
integrity while at the same time avoiding undercuts and 'pinching'.
I'll send this message once with a photo, and once without. This is a
andefix from France based on an art deco building. I have better
examples of stucco/polyester, but no photos. This photo is bad too - it
looks slightly skewed- it is not, and easy to correct even if it was.
There are no undercuts, the casts, no matter what the material, slide
out like loaves of bread.
GaryR52
stucco being lumpy or grainy? How smooth is it?
Gary R.
"Gary Waller" <ga...@digitalstoneworks.com> wrote in message
news:4JSef.514995$oW2.491325@pd7tw1no...
Andrew Werby
"GaryR52" <gar...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:AYLef.11410$ih5.5390@dukeread11...
> I'm thinking you're probably right about the requirement for a petroleum
> base, but, maybe good ol' Vaseline would make a suitable substitute for
> the grease? I'm not sure how it would respond to heat; probably it would
> become very liquid.
>
> Gary R.
[Right; Vaseline works well as a substitute for the grease. It melts down
pretty readily, but seems to give the clay more body than an oil-only
mixture. I made a batch with petroleum jelly, USP mineral oil, and beeswax -
it was almost good enough to eat...]
Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com
GaryR52
as a stand-in, right?
Andrew Werby
> Yum. Just those three ingredients, no clay powder? I guess the wax
> suffices as a stand-in, right?
>
> Gary R.
[No, you still need the clay powder. I just substituted more wholesome
ingredients for the grease, wax, and oil.]
Andrew
Dan S
I used to sometimes go to other sculptors' yardsales and see filthy ol'
slabs of micro cheap. Now I see the wisdom of stocking up.
Isn't sulfur in motor oil? haven't we devoted enough angry electrons to
complaining about surfured clay?
Dan
----------
In article <_Z6dnTsGc9tHrh_e...@comcast.com>, "Andrew Werby"