Another Family Tartan Question
Allison Jones
probably been asked a million times before (actually, there's a post
just above asking pretty much the same thing), and I'm sorry if it gets
annoying, but I'll ask anyway. I'm trying to figure out what my family
tartan is; I've asked my mother and some other relatives, but no one was
really sure of anything. The family name is Barr, and from what I
understand we're from Barr, Scotland. I'm assuming that it's a sept of
something else, but I haven't had much luck finding it listed anywhere
on the 'net. Any info. would be helpful!
Thanks,
Allison
Helen Ramsay
"Allison Jones" <ajo...@udel.edu> wrote in message
news:39F23E13...@udel.edu...
From Black's "Surnames of Scotland".
Barr - Of local origin from Barr in Ayrshire or Barr in Renfrewshire, or
perhaps from both. The surname is most frequently found at the present day
in the district around Glasgow...
Ayrshire and Renfrewshire are both in the south-west.
Cheers,
Helen
anne.burgess
"Allison Jones" wrote
> The family name is Barr, and from what I
> understand we're from Barr, Scotland. I'm assuming that it's a sept of
> something else, but I haven't had much luck finding it listed anywhere
> on the 'net.
Dear Allison
You're making the common mistake of assuming that because your family came
from Scotland, they must have a clan association. As Helen has already said,
Barr is from the south-west of Scotland, which was not part of the Highlands
where the clans were. Like the majority of Scots', your name is not a clan
name and your family is probably not a sept of any clan.
Anne B
thefoss
>"Allison Jones" wrote
>> The family name is Barr, and from what I
>> understand we're from Barr, Scotland. I'm assuming that it's a sept of
>> something else, but I haven't had much luck finding it listed anywhere
>> on the 'net.
Allison, Barr, or Bar is a very old Scottish name, and my name
Dunbar is derived from it.
Here's an extract from one of the Dunbar web sites.
Origins of The House and Name of Dunbar:
Centuries ago in Scotland, the Picts built a fortress at the top of an
exposed cliff overlooking the sea to defend from invading Scots,
Saxons, and Britons. Over succeeding years this fortress was to grow
in importance because of its strategic location at the mouth of the
River Forth.
Sometime between the years of 835 A.D. and 839 A.D. after the Battle
of Scone when Dursken, King of the Picts was slain and his followers
fled, this fortress was awarded by Kenneth I, King of Scotland, to a
brave and valiant captain of the Scots named Bar. Thus the fortress
became known in the Gaelic as Dun Bar, or the Tower/Fortress of Bar on
the Hill. The region around the fortress became known as Dunbar.
Hope this helps
Ray Dunbar
Allison Jones
fall under the same clan as Dunbars, or is Barr one of the names not
affiliated with any clan?
-Allison
thefoss
wrote:
>Thanks! That's really interesting to know. Does that mean that Barrs would
>fall under the same clan as Dunbars, or is Barr one of the names not
>affiliated with any clan?
>
>-Allison
>
Sorry Allison, I dont really know. As Dunbar was derived from Barr, I
can only assume that Barr and Dunbar are the same.
You could try the Clan Dunbar web site at http:// www.clandunbar.com/
and that will give you a contact Dick Scholing who seems to be the
Clan Dunbar Guru.
Catcha later Cuzzy
Ray Dunbar
anne.burgess
"Allison Jones" wrote
> Does that mean that Barrs would
> fall under the same clan as Dunbars, or is Barr one of the names not
> affiliated with any clan?
G F Black gives different origins for Barr and Dunbar. He says that BARR is
of local origin from the place in either Ayrshire or Renfrewshire; DUNBAR
from the place in East Lothian, and that the first people to use it were the
descendants of Earl Gospatrick of Northumberland (1067-1072), who was
descended from Crinan, Thane of Dunkeld, who was probably the grandson of
Duncan, lay-abbot of Dunkeld, and whose mother or grandmother may have been
a daughter of one of the last kings of the Isles.
Anne B
R Kirkman
>
>"Allison Jones" wrote
>> The family name is Barr, and from what I
>> understand we're from Barr, Scotland. I'm assuming that it's a sept of
>> something else, but I haven't had much luck finding it listed anywhere
>> on the 'net.
>
>
>You're making the common mistake of assuming that because your family came
>from Scotland, they must have a clan association. As Helen has already said,
>Barr is from the south-west of Scotland, which was not part of the Highlands
>where the clans were. Like the majority of Scots', your name is not a clan
>name and your family is probably not a sept of any clan.
>
>Anne B
>
>
>
interest in a Scottish heritage?
LVKiltie8703
>From: ro...@worldnet.att.net (R Kirkman)
>Date: 12/1/00 6:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <UcZV5.3973$2P3.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
relative to Barr. A name so peculiar to Scotland that it is omitted from most
surname dictionaries. Barr in Gaelic is literally the crop-the top of anything,
the head of corn, the sprouting of the hair, that which requires to be cut. As
a place name element. barr (as in Barrhead) means crest or height. The surname
may come from the village of Barr in Ayrshire-it is mostly to be found in the
west-but may equally well be a general topographical reference like the surname
Hill. The earliest form is de Barre and it appears from the records of the
16thC Dundee.Tthe Barr Barrie and Barry were virtually interchangeable. In
Scots Kith & Kin it shows that Barr is an 14thC Ayrshire name, with no Clan
association shown, whereas Barrie and Barry are shown as 14thC Angus names with
Clan association of Gordon and Farquharson. Geo. Black in Surnames of Scotland
says that as Bar Barr and Barre the name occurs in the Edinburgh Marriage
records. Sometimes difficult to separate from Barry which also occurs as in the
records as Barre. Bye for now and Best Regards, Charles Hamilton Leitch.
LOGGER_O
R Kirkman wrote:
: >Dear Allison
: >
: >You're making the common mistake of assuming that because your
family came
: >from Scotland, they must have a clan association. As Helen has
already said,
: >Barr is from the south-west of Scotland, which was not part of the
Highlands
: >where the clans were. Like the majority of Scots', your name is not
a clan
: >name and your family is probably not a sept of any clan.
: >
: >Anne B
: >
: >
: >
: in all humbleness may I ask if that makes her or I unacceptable in
having an
: interest in a Scottish heritage?
that they lack an interest in a Scottish Heritage. To be interested
in a Scottish heritage, one must just have and interest.
Iain...
Lesley Robertson
R Kirkman <ro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:UcZV5.3973$2P3.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Of course not. Just don't be fooled by the tartan industry. About half of
the surnames of Scotland have authentic links to the clans, the rest are
equally scottish and equally valuable. It's very useful to understand the
history of Scotland as a whole, and not just the hilly bit in the middle.
I've no doubt that if you check backwards in your family, you'll find that
it's a mixture of highland and lowland names.
We love having someone new to tease!
Lesley Robertson
Sean MacUisdin
Not at all. If anything, it's a suggestion not to get too worked up
about clan identity, correct tartans, or all the other heavily
regimented aspects of the culture which tend to be over emphasized by
Tartan and Clan Police with far too much time on their hands.
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
against Canada)
SilntThnkr
that this is a private matter and I do not mean to bring it up on the NG but as
one of our most charming regualrs many of us DO care how you fair. Have you
finished your treatments? If so, what is the prognosis? Have you been able to
return to delving in to the secrets of the human road map? Inquiring minds
(and us nosey ones too) want to know?
-David of the Clan Gunn
Lesley Robertson
SilntThnkr <silnt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001202112729...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
June and they told me I could expect it to take 3-6 months to vanish, then
when I went for the 2 month checkups, they couldn't find it! I got
transferred to the "regular checks" list instead of the "active" list. Next
check is Dec 5th (I think they're hauling all their non-native patients in
as we aren't expected to be at St Nick parties).
I worked through most of the treatment (found the normality was useful), and
have been back full time since the summer. I must admit that it's taking
frustratingly long to get fit again. I'll not be hitting any Munros any time
soon.
Lesley Robertson
SilntThnkr
>soon.
>Lesley Robertson
What may I ask are Munros. LOL
Lesley Robertson
Hills over 3000 feet, as listed by the Rev Munro in good Queen Vic's
time.... People collect them. Until recently, I was aiming at one new one a
year 9I like to go back and redo favourites which is not something a real
Munro bagger would do.
Lesley Robertson
anne.burgess
> What may I ask are Munros. LOL
>
> -David of the Clan Gunn
Scottish mountains over 3000 feet high. There are about 287 of them, and
keen hillwalkers set out to 'do' (i e climb/walk up) all of them.
Anne B
Sharon L. Krossa
> >"Allison Jones" wrote
> >> The family name is Barr, and from what I
> >> understand we're from Barr, Scotland. I'm assuming that it's a sept of
> >> something else, but I haven't had much luck finding it listed anywhere
> >> on the 'net.
>
> Allison, Barr, or Bar is a very old Scottish name, and my name
> Dunbar is derived from it.
> Here's an extract from one of the Dunbar web sites.
>
> Origins of The House and Name of Dunbar:
>
> Centuries ago in Scotland, the Picts built a fortress at the top of an
> exposed cliff overlooking the sea to defend from invading Scots,
> Saxons, and Britons. Over succeeding years this fortress was to grow
> in importance because of its strategic location at the mouth of the
> River Forth.
>
> Sometime between the years of 835 A.D. and 839 A.D. after the Battle
> of Scone when Dursken, King of the Picts was slain and his followers
> fled, this fortress was awarded by Kenneth I, King of Scotland, to a
> brave and valiant captain of the Scots named Bar. Thus the fortress
> became known in the Gaelic as Dun Bar, or the Tower/Fortress of Bar on
> the Hill. The region around the fortress became known as Dunbar.
This is a rather fanciful origin for <Dunbar>. If there is any
connection to <Barr>, which as other threads have explained comes from a
place name element meaning "crest" or "height", it is more probably that
<Dunbar> means "the fort on the crest/height". And, indeed, that is what
Fiona Johnstone's little book _Place Names_ says it means "fort on the
height" from <dun> meaning "fort" and <barr> meaning "height, top".
Also, I find the account of Kenneth slaying the king of the Picts etc. a
little suspect. First, I can't find any reference to a Dursken as King
of Picts. But more generally because it seems a little too pat and
detailed. We have a hard enough time knowing who the kings and their
relatives were in this period, let alone individual "captains". Though
it is true that sometimes random details survive from the 9th century, I
would not put much stock on the above story without knowing exactly what
historical evidence supports it.
I should perhaps say that it isn't surprising that a Dunbar family
website has this story. Many (perhaps most ;-) of the modern Scottish
clan and family origin myths are quite fanciful -- family myth
fabricating is a long standing Scottish tradition!
What is true is that the various families with the surname "Dunbar" and
"Barr" have those surnames because one of their paternal ancestors came
from a place called "Dunbar" or "Barr", respectively. In each family,
this person probably lived sometime in the 14th to 16th centuries (this
is ignoring possible modern name changes). (Note that since more than
one person from Dunbar could have taken it as his surname and passed it
on to his children, it is not safe to assume that everyone with the
surname is related.)
Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
R Kirkman
Thank You, because in some circles of discussion it seems that if one is not a
native Highlander living in the clan's home valley you are considered a
no-account and not worthy.
Lesley Robertson
> Thank You, because in some circles of discussion it seems that if one is
not a
> native Highlander living in the clan's home valley you are considered a
> no-account and not worthy.
They must be very small circles, especially when you consider the mobility
of the scottish nation and the fact that many of the glens are pretty much
de-populated..... Sheep would be the only ones who qualified for some
discussions!
The folk we primarily get irritated with are the ones who believe they know
more about Scotland's past and how it's future should be than the natives. I
suspect that the folk you describe above would get an equally "respectful"
reception, but noone's ever tried that argument here.
It's to a.s.c.s credit that I've only ever kill-filed one (former) regular
(plus a whole load of trolls, but that's another story).
Lesley Robertson
anne.burgess
"R Kirkman" wrote
> in some circles of discussion it seems that if one is not a
> native Highlander living in the clan's home valley you are considered a
> no-account and not worthy.
I don't think that is really true at all these days. I know that sometimes
people get upset about 'incomers' and 'white settlers' but that is mostly
when said people have either (a) bought up houses and local people can't
find anywhere decent to live or (b) they have come into the area and then
try to change the way things are done to make it more like the way they are
done wherever they have come from.
There may be some sad people who think that way - best just to ignore them.
Anne B
Lachie Macquarie
<anne.b...@newscientist.net> writes
>
>> What may I ask are Munros. LOL
>>
>> -David of the Clan Gunn
>
>keen hillwalkers set out to 'do' (i e climb/walk up) all of them.
>
>Anne B
>
>
277, ah well only another 217ish to go!
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhain I wish.
Lesley Robertson
Lachie Macquarie <Lac...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:y8W4ntA5...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk...
> Pendant mode 284 in 1997 8 were promoted and 1 was demoted, so there was
> 277, ah well only another 217ish to go!
> --
You're doing better than me - I've done about 25.... Been defeated by mist
on Ben Lawers twice, the seconds time we would have got to the top, but had
to take ^%$%# tourists without wet weather gear or a compass off the hill
instead. Third time lucky!
And for everyone who was asking, I've just come home from my 6 month
checkup, having left a very smug medic in Leiden - there is still no more
sign of the tumour!
Lesley Robertson (who's had the best possible St Nicholas present - it IS
Dec 5th)
Bryn Fraser
<l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> writes
Good news... These guys do have every reason to be smug... They are
getting really good at their job...
Mind you being bloody minded is good medicine too.... And the Whisky...
>
>
>
>
Bryn Fraser
Issues? You think *You* have issues?
Threeboars
>
> And for everyone who was asking, I've just come home from my 6 month
> checkup, having left a very smug medic in Leiden - there is still no more
> sign of the tumour!
> Lesley Robertson (who's had the best possible St Nicholas present - it IS
> Dec 5th)
Wonderful news! I'm glad to hear of it!
--
Regards,
3B
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - - Will Rogers
"He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who
dares not, is a slave." - - William Drummond, Laird of Hawthornden
Ann Getty
>
>And for everyone who was asking, I've just come home from my 6 month
>checkup, having left a very smug medic in Leiden - there is still no more
>sign of the tumour!
>Lesley Robertson (who's had the best possible St Nicholas present - it IS
>Dec 5th)
Excellent news!! Continued good health to you!
Ann