lowlanders
Arlene Stafford
We descend from the Rutherfords from Roxburghshire, Scotland.
An elderly relative told us that the Rutherfords were 'lowlanders' and
therefore had no tartan.
Are there any Scottish experts out there who could explain this?
Thanks from us 'lowlanders'
Sincerely,
Arlene
Please respond to staf...@travel-net.com
Lesley Robertson
Arlene Stafford wrote:
> Dear Scottish clan group:
>
> We descend from the Rutherfords from Roxburghshire, Scotland.
>
> An elderly relative told us that the Rutherfords were 'lowlanders' and
> therefore had no tartan.
>
> Are there any Scottish experts out there who could explain this?
>
What's to explain? The clans were a highland phenomeon - gaelic speaking,
tartan wearing, and to all intents and purposes, for much of Scotland's
history, a separate group. Lowlanders speak/spoke doric, also known as
scots english, and would have been horrified to have been associated with
the "highland barbarians". Less than half the surnames of Scotland have
associations with clans that pre-date the craze for all things scottish
begun by Prince Albert. Roxburgh is right on the Border - and thus well
into the lowlands. Borderers have a habit of being Borderers first, and
english or scots second, and have a rich tradition of cattle thieving,
etc. I suspect that there's probably a Roxburgh tartan floating around
somewhere - otherwise just pick one you like and wear that! The dress
Culloden's nice.
Lesley Robertson
descendent of highland barbarians and lowland ag.labs.
Lily Toney
> What's to explain? The clans were a highland phenomeon - gaelic speaking,
> tartan wearing, and to all intents and purposes, for much of Scotland's
> history, a separate group. Lowlanders speak/spoke doric, also known as
> scots english, and would have been horrified to have been associated with
> the "highland barbarians".
What frustrates/irritates me about this is that for some clans, you
rarely find items to purchase unless they are listed under the
"lowlands" version of the name. For example, my paternal grandmother was
a McAndrew. Whenever I look for tartan, brooches, any item associated
with the McAndrew name, it is ALWAYS under Anderson, with McAndrew as a
variation. Why is this?
--
- Lily
Devil and the deep blue sea behind me
Vanish in the air you'll never find me.
I will turn your face to alabaster,
Then you'll find your servant is your master
- The Police, "Wrapped Around Your Finger"
MORGAN JENKINS
a matter of finding it. The Arubuthnott family is good example of a
lowland family with a tartan. So keep looking, there is probably one
for you somewhere.
Morgan Jenkins
Adieu mes amis. Je vias la gliore.
larry Bernard
>
> Arlene Stafford wrote:
>
> > Dear Scottish clan group:
> >
> > We descend from the Rutherfords from Roxburghshire, Scotland.
> >
> > An elderly relative told us that the Rutherfords were 'lowlanders' and
> > therefore had no tartan.
> >
> > Are there any Scottish experts out there who could explain this?
> >
>
> tartan wearing, and to all intents and purposes, for much of Scotland's
> history, a separate group. Lowlanders speak/spoke doric, also known as
> scots english, and would have been horrified to have been associated with
> associations with clans that pre-date the craze for all things scottish
> begun by Prince Albert. Roxburgh is right on the Border - and thus well
> into the lowlands. Borderers have a habit of being Borderers first, and
> english or scots second, and have a rich tradition of cattle thieving,
> etc. I suspect that there's probably a Roxburgh tartan floating around
> somewhere - otherwise just pick one you like and wear that! The dress
> Culloden's nice.
> Lesley Robertson
> descendent of highland barbarians and lowland ag.labs.
Well, their was as my research told me(mind I'm a lowland descendant to)
back in the day (ya know before the normans came into england) there was
a Clan system in the lowlands the culture wasn't like in the
highlands.The lowlanders changed as alot of saxons fled from normans and
normans settled later in scotland.
Now then some of the lowlanders, lost their tartans do to size or other
society set upon rules and thus had regional tartans (feife has a
regional tartan)
Jess
Clan which was centered in Roxburgshire, southern Scotland. You can visit
this site, and find your tartan, etc.
Hope this helps.
Jess
Arlene Stafford wrote in message <3654F9...@travel-net.com>...
>Dear Scottish clan group:
>
>We descend from the Rutherfords from Roxburghshire, Scotland.
>
>An elderly relative told us that the Rutherfords were 'lowlanders' and
>therefore had no tartan.
>
>Are there any Scottish experts out there who could explain this?
>
EJ
> What's to explain? The clans were a highland phenomeon - gaelic speaking,
> tartan wearing, and to all intents and purposes, for much of Scotland's
> history, a separate group. Lowlanders speak/spoke doric, also known as
> scots english, and would have been horrified to have been associated with
> the "highland barbarians". Less than half the surnames of Scotland have
> associations with clans that pre-date the craze for all things scottish
> begun by Prince Albert.
______________________________________________________
Y'all help this thirty-something year old in Georgia understand more
about his family tree. <g> From things I've read here and in other
places, I have determined that my family, Johnston, is one of the
lowland border families. I've bookmarked a website or two with more
info, and the one that sticks in my mind more than others is The Clan
Johnstone Heritage Page.
Now, what I am most confused about is whether or not it is OK to at any
time refer to my family as a "clan". From what I've read, the answer
would be "no". This doesn't upset me or anything, it's just that I am
trying to learn about this as accurately as possible. It seems that
there is a craze of sorts where anyone with roots from Scotland has
assorted clan associations, tartans, kilts, crests, and so forth. As I
understand things, my family didn't wear kilts and such. Would the
Johnston(e) family crest (winged spur) be correct, or is it something
that has been made-up for the sake of marketing "all things Scottish" to
the masses?
Did lowland families and highland clans generally hate each other? Did
they generally have a disgust for each other? Were lowlanders considered
low-life pond scum by the world in general, or by highlanders, or at
all?
I'm curious for various reasons, including not saying something stupid
if I'm involved in face to face conversations with a group of Scots.
(Should I keep my mouth shut in such a situation? haha)
EJ
Lesley Robertson
>
> Now, what I am most confused about is whether or not it is OK to at any
> time refer to my family as a "clan".
There's no reason at all why you shouldn't refer to your family as a
clan, of that's what you want to do. Within a scottish clans context,
you have to differentiate between then and now. Many of the clan links
recognised today only date back about 100 years - once Prince Albert
decided that scots and tartan were good things, everyone had to find
themselves a link. Clans are registered with Lion King at Arms in
Edinburgh - some are older than others.
>From what I've read, the answer
> would be "no". This doesn't upset me or anything, it's just that I am
> trying to learn about this as accurately as possible.
One of the best sources I know for accurate info is the Rampant Scotland
site on http://users.colloquium.co.uk/~scott_awa/intro.htm
> It seems that
> there is a craze of sorts where anyone with roots from Scotland has
> assorted clan associations, tartans, kilts, crests, and so forth. As I
> understand things, my family didn't wear kilts and such. Would the
> Johnston(e) family crest (winged spur) be correct, or is it something
> that has been made-up for the sake of marketing "all things Scottish" to
> the masses?
>
Not necessarily - the Border Lairds had their own crests and family
symbols - as did the english! Incidently, did you know that many
Johnstones trace their family to Perth in its old incarnation as St
John's Town of Perth?
> Did lowland families and highland clans generally hate each other? Did
> they generally have a disgust for each other? Were lowlanders considered
> low-life pond scum by the world in general, or by highlanders, or at
> all?
>
Come on, when has any situation been in such shades of black and white?
They were severely separated by language, culture and by geography - for
example, it was much easier to move around in the lowlands, and the
highlanders tended to lurk in the hills, and only come down when it
suited them. I suspect that mutual incomprehension porobably descibes
most relationships. You wouldn't say that ALL native americans and
european settlers hated each other, would you? Did ALL southerners hate
ALL northerners? I doubt it. Most of our scottish ancestors were too
busy keeping themselves and their families alive in the face of poor
land, almost constant civil war and and unfriendly climate to worry
about such things. It wasn't all Braveheart and Rob Roy - even for
William Wallace and Rob Roy MacGregor! Hollywood has a lot to answer
for!
Highlanders all hating lowlanders and vice versa is a bit too close to
racism for my taste! Anyway, we have to save all our energy for
despising the english (JOKE).
> I'm curious for various reasons, including not saying something stupid
> if I'm involved in face to face conversations with a group of Scots.
> (Should I keep my mouth shut in such a situation? haha)
Why? We're just people. In my experience (and I now live as an expat in
a foreign country) if you behave naturally and ask if you're not sure,
you'll do a lot better than trying to impress. Would you think less of
me if I came over there and didn't know every detail of US history?
Asking questions is a good way to get to know folk - and better than
behaving as though you know more about their country than they do (and
I'm not suggesting that that's what you're doing).
An easy way to get a feeling for the atmosphere of scottish history is
to read the books of Nigel Tranter. He's known for the accuracy of his
background detail of his fictionalised accounts - try the Master of gray
trilogy for the events surrounding James VI's takeover of the english
throne, for example.
End of lecture, happy reading!
Lesley Robertson
EJ
> There's no reason at all why you shouldn't refer to your family as a
> clan, of that's what you want to do. Within a scottish clans context,
> you have to differentiate between then and now. Many of the clan links
> recognised today only date back about 100 years - once Prince Albert
> decided that scots and tartan were good things, everyone had to find
> themselves a link. Clans are registered with Lion King at Arms in
> Edinburgh - some are older than others.
Thanks for the info.
> One of the best sources I know for accurate info is the Rampant Scotland
> site on http://users.colloquium.co.uk/~scott_awa/intro.htm
Yes, I think I've just recently bookmarked that site, although I haven't
looked all over it yet.
> > Did lowland families and highland clans generally hate each other? Did
> > they generally have a disgust for each other? Were lowlanders considered
> > low-life pond scum by the world in general, or by highlanders, or at
> > all?
> >
> Come on, when has any situation been in such shades of black and white?
> They were severely separated by language, culture and by geography...
> Highlanders all hating lowlanders and vice versa is a bit too close to
> racism for my taste! Anyway, we have to save all our energy for
> despising the english (JOKE).
Haha... well, it wasn't intended quite that way. It's just from some of
the things I've read in the past, it would seem that highlanders and
lowlanders may not have always been know for getting along with each
other. It made me curious.
> > I'm curious for various reasons, including not saying something stupid
> > if I'm involved in face to face conversations with a group of Scots.
> > (Should I keep my mouth shut in such a situation? haha)
>
> Why? We're just people. In my experience (and I now live as an expat in
> a foreign country) if you behave naturally and ask if you're not sure,
> you'll do a lot better than trying to impress.
This is true, and I'm not too worried about trying to impress people.
The Scots who I know are people who work for the same company I work
for, and we already have a friendly relationship. I was more concerned
with sticking my foot into my mouth.
Thanks for the information.
EJ
Dick
folks attempting to trace their Scottish roots from the US are:
1. Literalism; i. e., Americans tending to view Scottish surnames
on the basis of precise spellings. I constantly am trying to teach
that, as an example, Maclean will be found at times as, McLean, McClean,
McLane, McLain (regardless whether or not affiliated with Duart or
Lochbuie), M' or Mac with all of the prior examples. Literalism is
about as old as American universal education. Prior to about 150 or
less years ago we were more inclined to treat names phonetically.
2. Clan affiliation by surname, i. e., that a MacLean would be a
MacLean. In this case it is more than a bit possible that a MacLean
married the daughter of a Macdonald and removed to Macdonald territory.
Thereafter, in this little family group these MacLean's are a Macdonald
sept. You may find soldiers on ancient rosters who appear to be
fighting their own kith and kin. Such cases might be explained by this
example.
3. Who the Highlanders were, i. e., they were Irish and their names
are to be found, particularly throughout Northern Ireland. I realize
that this did not explain all of the Highlanders but it does explain
there origin.
4. Historical realities, i. e., the Macdonald Lord of the Isles was
a Highland Prince. In fact, Somerled viewed himself as king of all that
he controlled, which included the inner and outer Hebrides, a huge chunk
of Ireland, the Isle of Man, and most of the Highlands. Somerled would
not have known what "The Highlands" were. I doubt he even considered
himself a Scot.
I'll stop here for now and let everyone jump on.
Suas Alba,
Dick
Ian Johnston
: Now, what I am most confused about is whether or not it is OK to at any
: time refer to my family as a "clan".
It's not going to get you stabbed, but it is inaccurate to refer to the
Johnstons as a clan - certainly in the original sense, though perhaps
not in the modern sense of "group of people sharing a common gullibility
when approached by the vendors of tartan products".
We're a border family, with a long and interesting history and heritage. Why
downplay that history?
Ian
Tiben MacLeod
I believe your long and interesting history and heritage in the
Lowlands, actually occurred a bit farther south.
Tiben MacLeod
Tiben MacLeod
I ask also your forgivness for my previous remark under this topic. I
apologize.
Tiben MacLeod
Ian Johnston
: I believe your long and interesting history and heritage in the
: Lowlands, actually occurred a bit farther south.
Not the Lowlands. The Borders. Which are indeed further south, but it's
pretty painfully obvious that you don't know that. Do you even know where
Scotland is?
Ian