'Clan' Akins - end of the line?

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Rev Timothy N Nurse

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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In article <8tbU4.523$_w....@news4.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

It's judgement day for 'clan' Akin. I'm afraid this is quite long but
please bear with it, it may be worth your while. If you can't be bothered wading
through it all, just skip to the conclusion at the end where I've posted a
summary.

For those unfamiliar with this exchange, Steven Akins claims that the name
Akin derives from the area around Kyleakin in Skye. Prof. Black's mighty tome
on Scottish surnames however, concludes that the name is simply a spelling
variation of Aiken/Aitken. Akins responded to this claiming that Black did
insufficient research. Black dismisses the entry of a merchant called John of
Akyne as a mistake as no such placename exists in Scotland. Akins claims
that Black was wrong and that Akyne was identified on a map of Scotland by
two American scholars who have both written books on Scottish surnames in
America. They identify the area as 'Akin' which features the village
Kyleakin and the old tower of Dunakin. Akins further claims that the practice
of naming yourself after location was common and thus AKyne must have existed
after which John titles himself. It is on this basis that Akins concludes
that the name Akin, is an entirely seperate entity from the commonly held
belief that it is Aitken/Aiken derived and, rather than being a form of
Adam (from which Aitken and its variants are derived), is a form of Haakan,
after which the area of Akin on Skye is named and Kyle Akin, the straight
of water seperating Skye from the mainland. Haakan is King Haakan, who
assembled his fleet here before doing battle and losing at the Battle of Largs.
In addition, he has produced what he purports to be a family coat of arms
found on a gravestone of one of his relatives in the US and cites similarity
with that of the Norwegian standard as further evidence of a link with the
area.

Thus, Akins claims, Akin is an entirely seperate entity, from Skye, named
after Akin on Skye where they originated and a Scottish clan in its own
right, rather than a subset of Aitken who themselves are not a clan but
have links with the Gordon clan.

This I believe to be a reasonable accurate summary of Steven Akins claims
and it is on this that rests his claims to be a clan chief and entitlement
to the title 'of that Ilk'.

I do not intend to deal with the heraldry aspect of the coat of arms, I
will leave that to others to disentangle. However, it is worth bearing in
mind that following the Cromwellian occupation of Scotland and the
destruction of records, the Lord Lyons office set out to restore those
records. An offer was put out that this service was free of charge for
a period. Unsurprisingly, the Lord Lyon's office was flooded with claims
of rights to arms, so much so that it took 5 years to sift through the
real from the bogus claim with Lyon's heralds travelling far and wide to
check the claims. Indeed there were many such bogus claims
to arms by canny Scots, trying to take advantage of the lack of
records and the offer of a free service in the late 17th C and many a
gravestone suddenly sprouted a coat of arms as supposed proof of prior
use!. I include below a copy of Akins own statement in response to my
questioning, for reference purposes.

Akins also boasted that my questioning was going nowhere
and that I was just 'looking silly'. He was dead wrong on both counts. It
was important that I got out of him a precise statement and a proper
understanding of his case before continuing.

<> <Kyle Akin would be the area in question,
<>
<>So we're talking about the village of Kyleakin, yes?
<
<
<The area where the village is now located. I'm not sure there was a village
<there in the 1300's.
<
<I claim that our name originated in the 1300's from the territory where the
<village of Kyle Akin is presently located, and that as our name is tied to
<this area, that when my ancestors assumed the use of coat-armor, that the
<devices borne upon their coat of arms reflect this origin, in so much as
<that my family's name is based upon the geographical area of Akin which was
<named for King Hakon IV of Norway, and because the area itself was named for
<Hakon, the arms used by my family were based upon an heraldic allusion to
<Hakon's status as a defeated Norwegian ruler of the Hebrides, and likewise
<the plant-badge of the thistle was adopted by my family because it played a
<role in the defeat of Hakon's Viking army. The use of the designation "of
<that Ilk" however is merely a reference to the fact that my line is the
<principle (as opposed to a cadet) line, reflecting the chiefship of the clan
<community, and is in no way tied to possession of geographical property
<bearing my name, despite the fact that my name is in fact derived from
<geographical property owned by the MacKinnons.

So. In addition, Akins claims that whilst they may not have owned this land,
as it was property owned by the MacKinnons, his clan comes from this area.

Now, there are a number of factors here that are not in dispute, and we
should dispense with them first. Kyle Akin is indeed a straight between Skye
and the mainland and it was named after King Haakan who did fight and lose
at the battle of Largs. Kyleakin is a real village in this area, Dunakin
is a ruined castle here and The MacKinnons did own the land under question.

So far, so good. Now, for the benefit of those unfamiliar with the area, a
map of Skye would be invaluable. A small map which will be sufficient to
guide the reader can be found at :

http://www.calmac.co.uk/gettingthere/mapskye.html

There are 4 areas we need to look at in detail, the castle, the village,
the area itself and family names.

It was quite clear that my local library would be insufficient and so, I
made arragements to gain access to the huge Scottish History section of
the main library of The University of Glasgow. I also availed myself of their
excellent maps section. The references I used are listed at the end. So,
on with the show.

Background.
==========
The MacKinnons held large areas of land on Mull and Knapdale but, following
a war with the McLeans, they lost large parts of their Mull lands. Following
the War of Independance and the Battle of Bannockburn, at which the
MacKinnons played in sheltering Bruce and then fighting at Bannockburn,
they were rewarded with the area of land on Skye stretching from Elgol
across to the pennisula containing Kyleakin by Robert The Bruce.
(See Calmac map). This effectively sandwiched them between the Cuillins
to the north and the Macdonalds of Sleat, to whom they were vassals, to
the south. North of the Cuillins was MacLeod of Dunvegan territory with
whom the Macdonalds of Sleat and the MacKinnons seemed to be at
perpetual war with. The other major families at that time on Skye were
the MacQueens, who occupied the land around Uig, and the MacNicols who
occupied from around Portree down to Broadford and including the Island of
Raasay. The MacKinnons, like many clans, claimed descendency from Kenneth
MacAlpin but there is no evidence to lend support to this claim.

The Castle
===========
The area where the ruin of Caisteal Maol now stands has probably
been used as a castle or lookout point from the days of the Picts if not before
due to the commanding view it gives across the Kyle. The first mention of
a castle there dates from an Act of Council of 1360 where it is referred to
as Castle Findanus. However the tower who's shattered ruin now stands there
dates from the 15thC and was probably more a glorified look-out tower and
bolt-hole for the McKinnons when war flared up between the Macdonalds and
MacLeods and they would have to abandon their main home, Dunringill at Elgol.
The earlier 'castle' was almost certainly a broch, but nothing remains of it.
The first mention of the new castle is contained in Dean Munro's tour of
the diocese in 1577, by which time the new castle had been renamed "Dewnakyn".
The castle was occassionally used, but there is little evidence that the
MacKinnons stayed there for any period of time. However towards the end of
the 16thC there was a rebellion in which an attempt to reinstate the title
Lord of the Isles took place. In order to deal with claims to title, the
MacKinnons were appointed adjudicators to decide on these matters and the
adjudication would take place at 'Dewnakyn Castle'. It's not exactly clear
when it changed its name to Caisteal Maol (Castle Moil) but it was abandoned
by the MacKinnons in the 17thC and by the 18thC had its current name. The ruin
remained the property of the MacKinnons until hard times befell them following
the Jacobite uprisings and the last direct line clan chief died penniless,
having sold or had forfeited all his land and property on Skye. So, in the
1360s, the original castle was known as Castle Findanus and it was about a
100 years later a new castle was built and renamed Dewnakyn, to become
Dunakin and then Maol.

There is a mythology story that the castle first came into the hands of
the MacKinnons following the marriage of a MacKinnon to a Norwegian princess
called "Saucy Mary". It is alleged that the two of them then set about
extracting a toll from ships by hauling a large chain across the Kyle to
prevent boats passing thus, as Cooper puts it,"..defying belief and all known
laws of engineering'. The later title of the castle, Maol, means 'toll'. Given
that it is unlikely that there were any MacKinnons on Skye at this time, the
story is improbable, although it is oft repeated.

The Area
========
The area of land occupied by the MacKinnons was known as Strath and their
main centre was Strathaird around Elgol. Martin Martin writes:
"The next adjacent part to Slait[Sleat] and joining it to the north side
is Strath. It is the property of the Laird of MacKinnon"
In the 1577 account by Dean Munro, he refers to the area where the castle
stands as Strathvardeil - "Strathvardeil perteins to MacKynuin. He has a castle
called Dewnakyn"
In a 1641 account of the arrival of the first protestant minister in the
area, it notes that he is the nephew of "..Sir. L. MacKinnon, 14th Chief of
Strath"
In The New Map of Western Isles, in Martin Martin's book, the map identifies
the area as Strath.
It is quite clear from this that the area occupied by the MacKinnons and
stretching Elgol to Kyleakin and Dunakin was known as Strath, with the
penninsula on which Kyleakin and Dunakin stands as Strathvardeil.
In all the searching of maps, I failed to find a single mention of 'Akin'
in any land area, in any shape or form aside from Dewnakyn and the village of
Kyleakin itself, even down to field level using the 1in to 880ft scale. The
areas aroung the village and the castle was known as Cnoc na Loch and
Ceann Caol Druim a' Bhidh. The area name Strathvardeil had become Strathardal.
Anyone adopting an area name from this area would either refer to themselves
as John of Strath or John of Strathvardeil using the early form. A search
of Coopers Gazeteer turned up nothing. The prefix or suffix -akin is
conspicuous by its absence both past and present.

Family Names
============
Nicolson's book on the history of Skye lists just about every family name
past and present who have existed on Skye. Naturally, he concentrates on
the great chief titles of MacLeaod and MacDonald and shamelessly plugs his
own, but he also lists a great number of the lesser names. There is not one
Akin/Akyn or any variation thereof mentioned. Had such a clan existed, it
would have warranted a mention.

The Village
===========
Finally, we come to the village. Herein lies the last refuge of Clan Akin. It
is certainly true that taking a surname from a town or village from which you
hail was very popular and so here, is perhaps, the strongest link. So what of
the village? In the early 19thC, the new Lord Macdonald arrived on Skye,
having been raised and educated almost entirely in London since he was a child.
He arrived with a grandiose plan. His plan was to build a new town and port
on Kyle Akin that wopuld rival the Clyde ports. It would have many fine town
houses and would be called, incredibly, New Liverpool. It rapidly became clear
that such a plan was doomed to failure as the economy of the island simply
couldn't support such a scheme and it was rapidly scaled down. Instead a
small village was built in the same area and it was named by Macdonald after
the Kyle as Kyleakin. Note that it was all one word and not, as Steven Akins
claimed, two words. This was in line with the main ferry port further south
on Sleat, Kylerhea. This is also the form it takes in the 1875 map Isle of
Skye Sheet XLI. It appears that the seperating it into two words seems to
be a late Victorian or Edwardian style, but it returned to its original
form sometime later to join the traditional form of its northerly companions
Kylerhea and Kylescu. Alas, there was no village prior to the 19thC and
that the ferry did not start here until the 19thC. The Glenelg - Kylerhea
crossing was preferred one. The strong, racing tidal currents at Kyle Akin
made it an extremely dangerous crossing. Alas, no John of Kyleakin


Summary
=======
So, what can I say in summary other than I had a fascinating time going
through old books in an extremely good library and the novelty of having
to wear white gloves to handle some of them (and having all my pens
temporarily confiscated!)? Well, its' patently obvious that Akins has no
case. There was no Kyleakin prior to the 19thC. The original broch in
1360 was known as Castle Findanus, not Dunakin. It was only with the
building of the later 15thC tower, who's ruins now stand on the rocky
promontary, that the name Dewnakyn or Dunakin was adopted. The area
around the tower and the 19thC village of Kyleakin was called Strathvardeil,
later Strathardal, and there is not one single part of the land that makes
any references at all to 'akin', other than the 15thC tower, the 19thC village
and the Kyle itself. In short, Black was correct. There is no area called Akyn
in which John of Akyn could name himself after (unless he was aquatic and
lived in the Kyle itself!) and the 'scholars' that Steven Akins cited are left
looking very foolish indeed. So, having no connection with Skye, the Akins
name reverts to a spelling variant of Aitken/Aiken, has no clan associated
with it other than a subset of Aitken, themselves a subset of Gordon and
hence, no clan chief who can claim to be 'of that Ilk'.

Conclusion
===========
Black is vindicated, Steven Akins and his family name has no association
with Skye and he is no clan chief. He should now do the honourable thing
and dismantle his website, abandon any claims he makes to title and
cease using the title 'of that Ilk' to which he has no entitlement.
Scottish history is full of charlatans taking advantage of gaps in Scottish
history for their own personal aggrandizement or financial gain - the
Sobieski brothers being the most notable. There are two possibilities
as far as Steven Akins is concerned. either the whole thing is wishful
thinking on his part, or it is a deliberate ploy for personal gain. If it
is the former, he will dismantle his website, if the latter, he will continue
with the charade.


(c)Timothy N Nurse - 19/5/2000


Bibliography:
=============
1998 Edition of the OS map of Skye, merely to keep my bearings.
1875 Isle of Skye Sheet XLI scale: 1in to 880ft (this is a *huge* scale)
History of Skye by Alexander Nicolson Pub 1930
Summer in Skye by Alexander Smith Pub 1866
Skye by Derek Cooper - which also features Cooper's Gazeteer. pub 1970
Scottish Castles: A Gazeteer of 1026 Scottish Castles - Mike Salter
A Description of the Western Lands of Scotland by Martin Martin pub 1703.
Collin's Clans, Tartans and Heraldry of Scotland

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Visit my exciting new *improved* web pages at:
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Ian Morrison

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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<text snipped to avoid copyright problems>

Well done Timothy - an excellent piece of research!

Ian Morrison
http://homestead.deja.com/user.ian_o_morrison/index.html

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


James William Oliver

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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"Rev Timothy N Nurse" <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net> wrote in message
news:tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15...

> In article <8tbU4.523$_w....@news4.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
> <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Timothy,

Firstly I'd like to congratulate you on a well written and very interesting
post and, more importantly, for finally showing Mr Steven Akins true
colours. I've never had any doubt that he was nothing more than a small man
with an extremely inflated ego who seeks self-aggrandisement, but now you
have taken the time to prove this and for that I thank you. I'm not
normally so vindictive or vengeful but Akins has clearly used this newsgroup
as a platform to spout his political and racial views, not to mention his
twisted views of Scotland and Scottish history.
On every topic he has argued, Scottish history, genetics, race and so
on, he has been critisised for his lack of knowledge and apparent inability
to accept any other interpretation than his own, even when it has been
proven completely wrong. I have to say that I feel rather sorry for him,
stubborn ignorance is something which can blind people to the good points of
the world around them.

Anyway, I challenge you to provide an equally comprehensive and convincing
argument in your defense Mr Akins. Though I suspect you won't manage it,
simply because there is no evidence to support your case. Accept it, you've
lost on all fronts. Your claims to a Clan have been rubbished and you've
lost just about every other argument in the mean time. I think hanging
around here and antagonising people can be counted as one of your biggest
mistakes. I wonder how your clanspeople would respond if they saw this
post? Just a thought.

Anyway, three cheers for the Rev. Nurse, he deserves it. Have you
considered forwarding this to other authorities who could take action
against Clan Akins?

James

Lesley Robertson

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Rev Timothy N Nurse <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net> wrote in message
news:tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15...
> Bibliography:
> =============
> 1998 Edition of the OS map of Skye, merely to keep my bearings.
> 1875 Isle of Skye Sheet XLI scale: 1in to 880ft (this is a *huge* scale)
> History of Skye by Alexander Nicolson Pub 1930
> Summer in Skye by Alexander Smith Pub 1866
> Skye by Derek Cooper - which also features Cooper's Gazeteer. pub 1970
> Scottish Castles: A Gazeteer of 1026 Scottish Castles - Mike Salter
> A Description of the Western Lands of Scotland by Martin Martin pub 1703.
> Collin's Clans, Tartans and Heraldry of Scotland
>

Should you decide to take this most interesting and illuminating research
further, may I suggest 2 books that I can't get my hands on at the moment?
These are the Statistical Account for Scotland collated by Sir John Sinclair
(pub 1790s, but most easily found/used in the 1960s reprint) and the New
Statistical Account (pub. 1840s-50s). These were collections of reports
filed by the local Ministers, and frequently included local history and
local mythology about the local history (e.g. the entry for Whitsome in
Berwickshire includes local legends about the Templars and Vikings, etc).
Even if you consider this work as finished, they're worth a look for your
own local parish some time.
Lesley Robertson


Rev Timothy N Nurse

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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In article <0c7f4a10...@usw-ex0103-023.remarq.com>, Ian Morrison
<ianNO...@nms.ac.uk.invalid> wrote:

<<text snipped to avoid copyright problems>
<
<Well done Timothy - an excellent piece of research!

Thank you - and there is no copyright problem. If anyone feels this
reasearch will be of some use can disseminate it freely to those who
think it will have some use, eg American clan societies, people researching
the Akins family name, etc. They can even stick it up on a web page or send
it to Lord Lyon if they want. Just keep it intact to retain context.

Rev Timothy N Nurse

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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In article <8g38q6$531$1...@news.tudelft.nl>, "Lesley Robertson"
<l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:

<These are the Statistical Account for Scotland collated by Sir John Sinclair
<(pub 1790s, but most easily found/used in the 1960s reprint)

Was this "The Statistical Account Of Scotland, 1791-1799"?
There's a ton of hits in the University library for this document although
an 1823 edition is the earliest listed. There are about 16 editions from
different publishing dates dating from about 1970 onwards.

<New
<Statistical Account (pub. 1840s-50s).

Is this the 1845 Account? They have 10 copies. they also have the rather
cumbersomely named

"The new statistical account of Scotland by the ministers of
the respective parishes the Benefit of the Sons and Daughters
of the Clergy"

Which was published in 1835 and is possibly an earlier attempt. However
there is a note indicating that some parts are missing but available in
in 1845 version.


<Even if you consider this work as finished, they're worth a look for your
<own local parish some time.

I might just do that. Maybe we'll discover why there were 10 Margaret
Aiken's in Kilbarchan over a period of just 12 years!

Akins of that Ilk

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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James William Oliver wrote in message
<8g38d3$h4n$1...@sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk>...

>Anyway, I challenge you to provide an equally comprehensive and convincing
>argument in your defense Mr Akins. Though I suspect you won't manage it,
>simply because there is no evidence to support your case. Accept it,
you've
>lost on all fronts. Your claims to a Clan have been rubbished and you've
>lost just about every other argument in the mean time. I think hanging
>around here and antagonising people can be counted as one of your biggest
>mistakes. I wonder how your clanspeople would respond if they saw this
>post? Just a thought.

I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up with
and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems that my
server has not posted his message, due perhaps to its length. If anyone
would care to e-mail his posting to me, I will be happy to post my rebuttal
on the ng.

Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@bellsouth.net


Shawn Kilpatrick

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...

>I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up with
>and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems that my
>server has not posted his message, due perhaps to its length. If anyone
>would care to e-mail his posting to me, I will be happy to post my rebuttal
>on the ng.


How odd. Your server seemed to have no trouble with the two 17K messages
you yourself posted on May 12, or the 37K message you posted on the 14th, or
any of your other tedious, long-winded barrages of bafflegab. Or perhaps, O
Big Whiner, you're feeling the need to stall, now that your bluff has been
called most meticulously by Rev. Nurse?

SK

Rev Timothy N Nurse

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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In article <JibV4.1219$iF2.2...@news1.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


<I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up with
<and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems that my
<server has not posted his message,

http://x37.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=625355355.1&CONTEXT=958743401.47
4152993&hitnum=0

All archived for posterity. Isn't DejaNews wonderful?

Séimí mac Liam

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Rev Timothy N Nurse <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net> wrote in message
news:tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15...
> In article <JibV4.1219$iF2.2...@news1.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"

> <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> <I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come
up with
> <and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems
that my
> <server has not posted his message,
>
>
http://x37.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=625355355.1&CONTEXT=958743
401.47
> 4152993&hitnum=0
>
I am sure his e-mail is overflowing. I can not be the only one more
that happy to comply with his request for a copy of your estimable
post.


--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
My eyes are hazel as well as my nuts"
Canonized December '99

Lesley Robertson

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Rev Timothy N Nurse <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net> wrote in message
news:tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15...
> In article <8g38q6$531$1...@news.tudelft.nl>, "Lesley Robertson"
> <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>
> <These are the Statistical Account for Scotland collated by Sir John
Sinclair
> <(pub 1790s, but most easily found/used in the 1960s reprint)
>
> Was this "The Statistical Account Of Scotland, 1791-1799"?
> There's a ton of hits in the University library for this document although
> an 1823 edition is the earliest listed. There are about 16 editions from
> different publishing dates dating from about 1970 onwards.
>
That's because there's around 16 volumes. In the original edition, Sinclair
published a volume every time enough reports came in, so you get bits from
all over Scotland in one volume. The reprint collects them by county, most
volumes contain a single county.

> <New
> <Statistical Account (pub. 1840s-50s).
>
> Is this the 1845 Account? They have 10 copies. they also have the rather
> cumbersomely named

These are sorted per county, with smaller counties combined.


>
> "The new statistical account of Scotland by the ministers of
> the respective parishes the Benefit of the Sons and Daughters
> of the Clergy"
>
> Which was published in 1835 and is possibly an earlier attempt. However
> there is a note indicating that some parts are missing but available in
> in 1845 version.
>

Can't remember the dates of the 3 volumes I have (Angus, Kincardineshire and
Fife), but the dates are about right (I'm at work, my library is at home).
It must be the same one as there's only three SAs, the third being a
mid-20th century one which I've not bought.

> I might just do that. Maybe we'll discover why there were 10 Margaret
> Aiken's in Kilbarchan over a period of just 12 years!

All named for the same matriarch, possibly.
Alternatively, if it was the IGI that was referenced, the same individual
can get entere several times as various LDS members include them on their
tree, not always with the same degree of accuracy.

I've now had time to read your article carefully - most enjoyable!
Lesley Robertson

Séimí mac Liam

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Lesley Robertson <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:8g3ja2$e6u$1...@news.tudelft.nl...

Or, perhaps a midwife named Margaret,

Akins of that Ilk

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
>
>James William Oliver wrote in message
><8g38d3$h4n$1...@sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk>...
>
>>Anyway, I challenge you to provide an equally comprehensive and convincing
>>argument in your defense Mr Akins. Though I suspect you won't manage it,
>>simply because there is no evidence to support your case. Accept it,
>you've
>>lost on all fronts. Your claims to a Clan have been rubbished and you've
>>lost just about every other argument in the mean time. I think hanging
>>around here and antagonising people can be counted as one of your biggest
>>mistakes. I wonder how your clanspeople would respond if they saw this
>>post? Just a thought.
>
>I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up with
>and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems that my
>server has not posted his message, due perhaps to its length. If anyone
>would care to e-mail his posting to me, I will be happy to post my rebuttal
>on the ng.

-----Original Message-----
From: James William Oliver <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: sja...@bellsouth.net <sja...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 1:37 PM
Subject: Fw: 'Clan' Akins - end of the line?


>Steven,
>
>Here is the lost posting I was referring to.
>
>Regards
>
>James


Thanks James. I will address his points as they each appear in the post as
you sent it to me.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rev Timothy N Nurse" <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.scottish,alt.scottish.clans
>Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 10:54 AM
>Subject: 'Clan' Akins - end of the line?
>
>
>> In article <8tbU4.523$_w....@news4.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
>> <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> It's judgement day for 'clan' Akin. I'm afraid this is quite long but
>> please bear with it, it may be worth your while. If you can't be bothered
>wading
>> through it all, just skip to the conclusion at the end where I've posted
a
>> summary.


<snipped summary of argument>

>> I do not intend to deal with the heraldry aspect of the coat of arms, I
>> will leave that to others to disentangle.

A wise decision, since by your own accounts, this is the jurisdiction of
Lord Lyon, so we will await his verdict on that matter.


The inability to produce evidence is not evidence.

>> Nicolson's book on the history of Skye lists just about every family name
>> past and present who have existed on Skye. Naturally, he concentrates on
>> the great chief titles of MacLeaod and MacDonald and shamelessly plugs
his
>> own, but he also lists a great number of the lesser names. There is not
>one
>> Akin/Akyn or any variation thereof mentioned. Had such a clan existed, it
>> would have warranted a mention.


This is hardly surprising as the name Akin(s) was only adopted by members of
our clan who had moved from the area where our surname has its origins and
had resettled in new areas where they would have been strangers, thus we see
in early records the appearance of "John of Aykne" (to use the archaic form
of spelling then in use in the early 1400's, as per Dewnakyn), which Black
erroneously concluded was "evidently in error" because he was unable to
locate it on the map. The stay at home relatives back on the Isle of Skye of
those who would have adopted the surname Akin(s) in their new residences,
would not have used the lowland practice of adopting the name of the village
or area of one's nativity, and would have continued to follow the Hebridean
practice of using the ever-changing patronymic, using their father's first
name as their last name with the prefix "mac" which changed with each
succeeding generation until more recent times when the patronymic names were
"fixed" so that they no longer changed as had been the case in previous
centuries. At this point, however, I could throw out the very Hebridean
surname MacEachin and let you go off in search of evidence to dissassociate
it with the stay at home relatives of my clan who chose to remain on Skye.

The area from which many families bearing the name Rhea took their surname,
so what is your point?

>> This is also the form it takes in the 1875 map Isle of
>> Skye Sheet XLI. It appears that the seperating it into two words seems to
>> be a late Victorian or Edwardian style, but it returned to its original
>> form sometime later to join the traditional form of its northerly
>companions
>> Kylerhea and Kylescu. Alas, there was no village prior to the 19thC and
>> that the ferry did not start here until the 19thC. The Glenelg - Kylerhea
>> crossing was preferred one. The strong, racing tidal currents at Kyle
Akin
>> made it an extremely dangerous crossing. Alas, no John of Kyleakin


As I said, the name was taken from the area where the village now stands, I
had no misconceptions about our name being taken from the village itself.

>> Summary
>> =======
>> So, what can I say in summary other than I had a fascinating time going
>> through old books in an extremely good library and the novelty of having
>> to wear white gloves to handle some of them (and having all my pens
>> temporarily confiscated!)? Well, its' patently obvious that Akins has no
>> case. There was no Kyleakin prior to the 19thC.

And I never said that the village itself was connect to my family, only the
area where the village now stands, which happens to be the site of Dun Akin
Castle, named for????

>>The original broch in
>> 1360 was known as Castle Findanus, not Dunakin.

You mean the mythical Findanus, husband of the non-existant Norwegian
princess, Saucy Mary, whose father bestowed upon Findanus the very castle as
a dowery to the ancestor of the MacKinnons, at least according to Charles R.
MacKinnon of Dunakin, in his book "Scottish Highlanders" where we read:

"It was Findanus too who brought Dunakin into the clan around the year
900 by marrying a Norse princess nicknamed "Saucy Mary". The castle, Dun
Haakon, was an old broch or fortress commanding the narrow sound between
Skye and the mainland, through which all ships had to pass or else attempt
the longer, stormy passage of the Minch.....It was in the shadow of Dunakin
that King Haakon IV's war galleys mustered in 1263 before the Battle of
Largs, at which their power was finally broken in Scotland."

I would certainly think that Charles R. MacKinnon of Dunakin, a chieftain of
the Clan MacKinnon and owner of Dunakin castle would know a thing or two
about its history.

>> It was only with the
>> building of the later 15thC tower, who's ruins now stand on the rocky
>> promontary, that the name Dewnakyn or Dunakin was adopted.

Here you have completely gotten off track. The tower wasn't rebuit. It is
the same old Broch that has always been there, its been in ruins for
centuries. It was named Dunakin to commemorate King Haakon's passage through
that region in 1263 A.D., not in the 1500's.

>>The area
>> around the tower and the 19thC village of Kyleakin was called
>Strathvardeil,
>> later Strathardal, and there is not one single part of the land that
makes
>> any references at all to 'akin', other than the 15thC tower, the 19thC
>village
>> and the Kyle itself. In short, Black was correct. There is no area called
>Akyn
>> in which John of Akyn could name himself after (unless he was aquatic and
>> lived in the Kyle itself!) and the 'scholars' that Steven Akins cited are
>left
>> looking very foolish indeed. So, having no connection with Skye, the
Akins
>> name reverts to a spelling variant of Aitken/Aiken, has no clan
associated
>> with it other than a subset of Aitken, themselves a subset of Gordon and
>> hence, no clan chief who can claim to be 'of that Ilk'.


So says Rev. Timothy Nurse, who believes Black's "Surnames of Scotland" to
be the third devinely inspired work of the infallible word of God, following
the Old and New Testaments. Again, lack of evidence is no evidence, yet I
have in the blazon of my hereditary coat of arms (which Rev. Tim
conveniently avoids) and the long held traditional oral history of my own
family all of the evidence that I need to satisfy my curiousity regarding
the origins of my family's surname. Whether this satisfies Rev. Nurse, or
anyone else outside of my Clan is of little importance, as it is the
long-held traditional account of our origins and is no more or less provable
than the traditional origins of any Clan whose roots go back before the days
of printed history when legends of ancestors were passed from one generation
to the next as oral history.

Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@bellsouth.net

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

Shawn Kilpatrick wrote in message <8g3gia$krl$1...@cougar.golden.net>...

>
>Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
>
>>I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up with
>>and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems that my
>>server has not posted his message, due perhaps to its length. If anyone
>>would care to e-mail his posting to me, I will be happy to post my
rebuttal
>>on the ng.
>
>
>How odd. Your server seemed to have no trouble with the two 17K messages
>you yourself posted on May 12, or the 37K message you posted on the 14th,
or
>any of your other tedious, long-winded barrages of bafflegab. Or perhaps,
O
>Big Whiner, you're feeling the need to stall, now that your bluff has been
>called most meticulously by Rev. Nurse?


Hardly. My own server drops my lengthier posts as well. As for Rev. Timmy's
research, I have already sent my rebuttal since receiving a copy of it in my
e-mail, courtesy of James Oliver and several others.

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

Lesley Robertson wrote in message <8g3ja2$e6u$1...@news.tudelft.nl>...


It happens to be a fact that historically Scots have only used a very small
group of names to baptise their children with. Amongst girls, these are
Agnes, Ann, Barbara, Elizabeth (or Elspeth), Isabell (or Isobel), Margaret,
Marjorie, Mary, Nancy, Rachel, Rebecca, etc. In order to get 12 Margaret
Aikins in one parish in 10 years is no problem when you consider that in the
past families had between 8 and 10 or more children and would rename each
generation using the same limited set of names as the generation before. So,
if you had a mother named Margaret Aikine who had 10 children in 1600, and
say five of which would have been boys, then each of these boys would have
in turn gone on to father 8,10, or 12 children of his own, making certain to
name at least one of his daughter's Margaret, after his mother, and so on
and so forth, until within a very few generations of living in the same
parish, you will have dozens of Margaret Aikines running about.

Rev Timothy N Nurse

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
In article <TUcV4.6584$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


<Hardly. My own server drops my lengthier posts as well. As for Rev. Timmy's
<research, I have already sent my rebuttal since receiving a copy of it in my
<e-mail, courtesy of James Oliver and several others.

..and a real scream it was too Steven. I will address it shortly.

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...
>In article <TUcV4.6584$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"

><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> <Hardly. My own server drops my lengthier posts as well. As for Rev.
Timmy's
> <research, I have already sent my rebuttal since receiving a copy of it in
my
> <e-mail, courtesy of James Oliver and several others.
>
>..and a real scream it was too Steven. I will address it shortly.


If it is anywhere near the length of the other, please e-mail me a copy, as
my server did not even post my rebuttal to your "findings" due to the
lengthy amount of material not snipped. I'm sure that Anne Jackson is
cursing us both.

James William Oliver

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:8ceV4.6697$QZ3.2...@news2.mia...

>
> Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...
> >In article <TUcV4.6584$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"

> ><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > <Hardly. My own server drops my lengthier posts as well. As for Rev.
> Timmy's
> > <research, I have already sent my rebuttal since receiving a copy of it
in
> my
> > <e-mail, courtesy of James Oliver and several others.
> >
> >..and a real scream it was too Steven. I will address it shortly.
>
>
> If it is anywhere near the length of the other, please e-mail me a copy,
as
> my server did not even post my rebuttal to your "findings" due to the
> lengthy amount of material not snipped. I'm sure that Anne Jackson is
> cursing us both.

If long messages are causing problems on news servers I would be willing to
serve as an intermediate for those who cannot pull down or send postings.
If you wish to do this, please E-mail your request to j...@st-and.ac.uk and I
will forward the post to the St Andrews University News Server (which I use
and all of my posts get through) or to whomever you request.
I can guarentee quick delivery of messages for the next 6 hours or so
(after which I'll be in bed) and for part of tomorrow as I have an exam
(which I'm studying for tonight).

Alternative you could use www.deja.com and look up the alt.scottish.clans
forum

Regards

James

Ian J McKiver

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
Timothy,
my son is named Kyle (after the Kyle of Lochalsh, which I have
visited many times for work purposes). When I researched the name I found three
meanings. One was 'a seawater Loch', the other 'a church by a Loch' and a third
'Gaelic for handsome'. For the record, I think of my son as 'handsome' rather than
as 'a stretch of seawater' <G>. I recall a (drunken) conversation with a local who
said that Kyleakin (there pronounced as K'lakan) was named for the Kyle and just
meant 'near to' or 'the other side' (describing the route of the ferry). Of course,
it does beg the question as to where DunAkyn took its name.
Cheers,
ian.

Ian J McKiver

Rev Timothy N Nurse

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
In article <8ceV4.6697$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

<Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...

<>In article <TUcV4.6584$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"


<><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
<>
<>
<> <Hardly. My own server drops my lengthier posts as well. As for Rev.
<Timmy's
<> <research, I have already sent my rebuttal since receiving a copy of it in
<my
<> <e-mail, courtesy of James Oliver and several others.
<>
<>..and a real scream it was too Steven. I will address it shortly.
<
<
<If it is anywhere near the length of the other, please e-mail me a copy, as
<my server did not even post my rebuttal to your "findings" due to the
<lengthy amount of material not snipped. I'm sure that Anne Jackson is
<cursing us both.

It appeared and I responded to it.
The original article was under 250 lines as is the reply.

Rev Timothy N Nurse

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
In article <oScV4.6579$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


<>> I do not intend to deal with the heraldry aspect of the coat of arms, I
<>> will leave that to others to disentangle.
<
<A wise decision, since by your own accounts, this is the jurisdiction of
<Lord Lyon, so we will await his verdict on that matter.

Indeed, however, given the many incidences of arms-fraud which bogged down
Lyon's office for 5 years at precisely the time you are claiming a right to
arms, I wouldn't hold my breath, since the office will be only too aware
of those events as they are well documented.

[History of the castle]

<>> The Area
<>> ========
[..]

<>> Kyleakin itself, even down to field level using the 1in to 880ft scale.
<>The
<>> areas aroung the village and the castle was known as Cnoc na Loch and
<>> Ceann Caol Druim a' Bhidh. The area name Strathvardeil had become
<>Strathardal.
<>> Anyone adopting an area name from this area would either refer to
<>themselves
<>> as John of Strath or John of Strathvardeil using the early form. A search
<>> of Coopers Gazeteer turned up nothing. The prefix or suffix -akin is
<>> conspicuous by its absence both past and present.
<
<
<The inability to produce evidence is not evidence.

Then produce evidence that the area was known as Akyn at around the time you
claim and not Strathvardeil, as all the ancient documents refer to it as.

<
<>> Nicolson's book on the history of Skye lists just about every family name
<>> past and present who have existed on Skye. Naturally, he concentrates on
<>> the great chief titles of MacLeaod and MacDonald and shamelessly plugs
<his
<>> own, but he also lists a great number of the lesser names. There is not
<>one
<>> Akin/Akyn or any variation thereof mentioned. Had such a clan existed, it
<>> would have warranted a mention.
<
<
<This is hardly surprising as the name Akin(s) was only adopted by members of
<our clan who had moved from the area where our surname has its origins

..except it is now quite clear that it did not have its origins in this area
since the area was known as Strathvardeil, not Akin/Akyn.

<had resettled in new areas where they would have been strangers, thus we see
<in early records the appearance of "John of Aykne" (to use the archaic form
<of spelling then in use in the early 1400's, as per Dewnakyn), which Black
<erroneously concluded was "evidently in error" because he was unable to
<locate it on the map.

The fact that it was called Castle Findanus at that time seems to have
eluded Akins!

< The stay at home relatives back on the Isle of Skye of
<those who would have adopted the surname Akin(s) in their new residences,
<would not have used the lowland practice of adopting the name of the village
<or area of one's nativity,

So now he claims that his family on Skye would have adopted another, unknown
surname, whilst those elsewhere in the country would adopt the name of the
village - of which there was none until the 19thC, or the area - which was
Strathvardiel. O what a tangled web he lamely weaves.

Good grief! Is he unaware that Rhea is Gaelic for King, and Kylerhea was
so named in honour of James 4th? Also in Greek mythology, Rhea was the mother
of Zeus? The point, that Akins attempts lamely to dodge, is that prior to
the 19thC village, the area was not known as anything -akin/akyne, it was
known as Strathvardeil and later Strathardal


<>> Kylerhea and Kylescu. Alas, there was no village prior to the 19thC and
<>> that the ferry did not start here until the 19thC. The Glenelg - Kylerhea
<>> crossing was preferred one. The strong, racing tidal currents at Kyle
<Akin
<>> made it an extremely dangerous crossing. Alas, no John of Kyleakin
<
<
<As I said, the name was taken from the area where the village now stands, I
<had no misconceptions about our name being taken from the village itself.


However, the area specifically where the village now stands had no 'Akyne'
in its name and was known by the two Gaelic names given previously, with
the larger area known as Strathvardiel. Akins fails to provide evidence
to back his claim.

<>> Summary
<>> =======
<>> So, what can I say in summary other than I had a fascinating time going
<>> through old books in an extremely good library and the novelty of having
<>> to wear white gloves to handle some of them (and having all my pens
<>> temporarily confiscated!)? Well, its' patently obvious that Akins has no
<>> case. There was no Kyleakin prior to the 19thC.
<
<And I never said that the village itself was connect to my family, only the
<area where the village now stands, which happens to be the site of Dun Akin
<Castle, named for????

Akins tries to confuse the issue and switches to the fort name which, of
course, is late 15thC, not 1405 when the Scottish merchant called John of
akyne was supposed to be demanding a return of his sezed ships in England.

<
<>>The original broch in
<>> 1360 was known as Castle Findanus, not Dunakin.
<
<You mean the mythical Findanus,

Once again Akins tries to muddy the waters. Findanus was the name the
4th chief of the McKinnons and it was he who gave them their Gaelic name
of McKinnon. It is the Saucy Mary story that is mythical.

<I would certainly think that Charles R. MacKinnon of Dunakin, a chieftain of
<the Clan MacKinnon and owner of Dunakin castle would know a thing or two
<about its history.

Perish the thought that a clan chief should want to doctor his clan history
by the inclusion of a bit of mythology! Is Akins really suggesting, as the
above clan chief, that the 'Suacy Mary' mythology is true??

<>> It was only with the
<>> building of the later 15thC tower, who's ruins now stand on the rocky
<>> promontary, that the name Dewnakyn or Dunakin was adopted.
<
<Here you have completely gotten off track. The tower wasn't rebuit. It is
<the same old Broch that has always been there, its been in ruins for
<centuries.

Now Akins shows his ignorance. The tower itself has been identified as typical
late 15thC architecture and structure, and nothing like the style of a broch
dating from 500 years earlier.

< It was named Dunakin to commemorate King Haakon's passage through
<that region in 1263 A.D., not in the 1500's.

Here Akins regurgitates the mythology and ignores the Act of Council of
1360 which documents the tower as being known as Castle Findanus and it is
only by 1577 has it changed name to 'Dewnakin'. Remember, there is only a
40 year gap between when this Act of Council took place and when this merchant
known as John of Akyne demands his ships back from the English. How old was
John of Akyne? 40? Assuming he lived in this area, that would put him right
next to Castle Findanus, so why would he call himself Akyne when the area
was known as Strathvardeil and the tower as Findanus?

<
<>>The area
<>> around the tower and the 19thC village of Kyleakin was called
<>Strathvardeil,
<>> later Strathardal, and there is not one single part of the land that
<makes
<>> any references at all to 'akin', other than the 15thC tower, the 19thC
<>village
<>> and the Kyle itself. In short, Black was correct. There is no area called
<>Akyn
<>> in which John of Akyn could name himself after (unless he was aquatic and
<>> lived in the Kyle itself!) and the 'scholars' that Steven Akins cited are
<>left
<>> looking very foolish indeed. So, having no connection with Skye, the
<Akins
<>> name reverts to a spelling variant of Aitken/Aiken, has no clan
<associated
<>> with it other than a subset of Aitken, themselves a subset of Gordon and
<>> hence, no clan chief who can claim to be 'of that Ilk'.
<
<
<So says Rev. Timothy Nurse,

More bluster from Akins who has singularly failed to provide a shred of
documentary evidence for his own claim of the existance of a people in
Strathvardeil who adopted the surname 'Akin/Akyne'. Note how, rather than
provide proper evidence in support of his own claims he, instead, demands
proof negative - a logical fallacy and the last refuge of the cornered.
Is he going to do the honourable thing and dismantle his web site, or will
he try and bluff it out thus exposing himself as a fraud?

And here endeth my engagement in this exchange. It is now clear to me
from the flim flam that Akins dispenses in this reply that he is indeed
a fraud, relying on an absence of evidence to allow him to fill in the gaps
with whatever he chooses and then demand evidence to the contrary knowing
that such a proof is illogical. You can never prove the absence of something
which is why proof positive is demanded. What little 'proof' Akins brings is
simply a sham that doesn't even stand up to superficial scrutiny, as i have
shown. I do hope those with the family name Akins shuns this man as I would
be highly emabrrased were I one, at this nonsense. That, coupled with his
overt racism towards blacks espoused elsewhere in this group would make me
black affrontit.

Bye Steven - you are well toasted.

Brash

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:RadV4.6609$QZ3.2...@news2.mia...

I don't really know (or care) what this argument is about, but I just wanted
to point out something and ask a question. Assuming there are, on average,
10 children per family. So, after 4 generations you would have 2
(mother/father) + 2*10 (children/spouses) + 2*10*10 (grandchildren/spouses)
+ 10*10*10 (great-grandchildren). That is 1222 people. Assuming one child
named Margaret per couple, that would be 1 + 10 + 10*10. That is 111
Margarets. Assuming half are male, that would mean there are 1 + 5 + 5*5 =
31 Margaret Aikens. So, doing a little quick approximating, there would
have to be about 500 members of the family for there to be 12 Margarets.

How big were the parishes back then? That's 500 people of only one family.
(Actually, come to think of it, this would include members of other
families. But parts of the other families wouldn't have been counted in
that figure, so still, more families, more than 500 people.)

Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong, Akins, it just seems that would be a
lot of people in one parish at one time.

--Colin


anne.burgess

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
Hate to be a bore, but for some reason my server has not downloaded Rev
Tim's item on Clan Akins. Would someone be kind enough to send it on to me
please? I would be very interested to read it.

Anne B

Bob Germer

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 10:20 AM,
"Grand Kleagle Steve Akins of mixed race ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net>
said:

> >> name reverts to a spelling variant of Aitken/Aiken, has no clan
> associated
> >> with it other than a subset of Aitken, themselves a subset of Gordon and
> >> hence, no clan chief who can claim to be 'of that Ilk'.

> So says Rev. Timothy Nurse, who believes Black's "Surnames of Scotland"
> to be the third devinely inspired work of the infallible word of God,
> following the Old and New Testaments. Again, lack of evidence is no
> evidence, yet I have in the blazon of my hereditary coat of arms (which
> Rev. Tim conveniently avoids) and the long held traditional oral history
> of my own family all of the evidence that I need to satisfy my
> curiousity regarding the origins of my family's surname. Whether this
> satisfies Rev. Nurse, or anyone else outside of my Clan is of little
> importance, as it is the long-held traditional account of our origins
> and is no more or less provable than the traditional origins of any Clan
> whose roots go back before the days of printed history when legends of
> ancestors were passed from one generation to the next as oral
> history.

You claims have no more validity than Gone With the Wind was an accurate
history of the South. In fact, GWTW has more facts than anything you ever
posted.

There IS no Clan Akins. You are the Chief of a fictional group with no
standing. What you say is of no matter whatsoever. What Lord Lyon decides
is the only thing which has any validity. As far as I can discover, Lord
Lyon has not recognized you, your clan, or your fictional coat of arms.

You are a racist, a bigot, a fraud, and a liar. Moreover, you are a boor,
a brute, and a disgrace to the entire world.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bo...@Pics.com
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19ze Registration Number 67
As the court closes in on M$, Lemmings are morphing to Ostrats!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bob Germer

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 04:20 AM,
Ian Morrison <ianNO...@nms.ac.uk.invalid> said:

> <text snipped to avoid copyright problems>

> Well done Timothy - an excellent piece of research!

Amen, brother, AMEN!

Bob Germer

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 09:46 AM,
"Shawn Kilpatrick" <ess...@gNoOlSdPeAnM.net> said:


> How odd. Your server seemed to have no trouble with the two 17K
> messages you yourself posted on May 12, or the 37K message you posted on
> the 14th, or any of your other tedious, long-winded barrages of
> bafflegab. Or perhaps, O Big Whiner, you're feeling the need to stall,
> now that your bluff has been called most meticulously by Rev. Nurse?

Of course. The Grand Kleagle of mixed race has responded to another's
message which contained the complete text of Rev. Nurse's excellent
exposition and added to it.

Stevie of the Mixed Race Ilk is a liar and he proved it once again.

Bob Germer

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 08:34 AM,
"Grand Kleagle Little Lying Stevie Akins of the Mixed Race Ilk"
sja...@bellsouth.net> said:


> I would be very interested in seeing for myself what Tim has come up
> with and would be happy to answer any of his points, however it seems
> that my server has not posted his message, due perhaps to its length. If
> anyone would care to e-mail his posting to me, I will be happy to post
> my rebuttal on the ng.

Caught you in yet another lie. You have earlier posted a response to
another which included the entire text of Rev. Nurse's absolute proof that
you are a fraud, a liar, and worthless boor.

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

Brash wrote in message <8g42id$lc8$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...

>Tools -> Get Next ### Headers...


Sorry, I am not conversant in that language.

Brash

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ztgV4.7470$_w.18...@news4.mia...

>
> Brash wrote in message <8g42id$lc8$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...
>
> >Tools -> Get Next ### Headers...
>
>
> Sorry, I am not conversant in that language.
>

Move your mouse up to the menu bar of Outlook Express.
Now click on "Tools".
Now click on the text that says "Get Next ### Headers", where ### is a
number (probably 300).
You can repeat this if it still says you have not downloaded all the
messages.

Better?

--Colin


Brash

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vUfV4.7395$_w.18...@news4.mia...
>
> Brash wrote in message <8g3rtn$gn7$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...

>
> >I don't really know (or care) what this argument is about, but I just
> wanted
> >to point out something and ask a question. Assuming there are, on
average,
> >10 children per family. So, after 4 generations you would have 2
> >(mother/father) + 2*10 (children/spouses) + 2*10*10
(grandchildren/spouses)
> >+ 10*10*10 (great-grandchildren). That is 1222 people. Assuming one
child
> >named Margaret per couple, that would be 1 + 10 + 10*10. That is 111
> >Margarets. Assuming half are male, that would mean there are 1 + 5 + 5*5
=
> >31 Margaret Aikens. So, doing a little quick approximating, there would
> >have to be about 500 members of the family for there to be 12 Margarets.
> >
> >How big were the parishes back then? That's 500 people of only one
family.
> >(Actually, come to think of it, this would include members of other
> >families. But parts of the other families wouldn't have been counted in
> >that figure, so still, more families, more than 500 people.)
> >
> >Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong, Akins, it just seems that would be
a
> >lot of people in one parish at one time.
>
>
> You have to factor in other things like survival rate of children born,
and
> the average life-span at that time. I'm not sure what the mortality rates
> were, but I know that I have seen cases where a child would be born,
> baptised "John" and then die in infancy, only to be replaced by another
> infant who might also be baptised "John" and so on. When you stop to
> consider that the average life-span in the 1600's was perhaps 45 or 40
years
> and that possibly 1 in 4 children born did not reach the age of puberty,
the
> figures change.
>

Yeah, I thought about that, but the ratio of Margarets to total number of
people would still be the same, wouldn't it? I mean, for every 500 people
that died, 12 Margarets would have been included in the deaths.

My logic could be off a bit. I didn't think it through all that carefully.

--Colin


Foonly

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
Running scared? You could use deja-news.

www.deja.com


"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:uoiV4.7640$_w.19...@news4.mia...
>
> Brash wrote in message <8g45gs$m0r$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...


> >
> >"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

> >news:ztgV4.7470$_w.18...@news4.mia...
> >>
> >> Brash wrote in message <8g42id$lc8$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...
> >>
> >> >Tools -> Get Next ### Headers...
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry, I am not conversant in that language.
> >>
> >
> >Move your mouse up to the menu bar of Outlook Express.
> >Now click on "Tools".
> >Now click on the text that says "Get Next ### Headers", where ### is a
> >number (probably 300).
> >You can repeat this if it still says you have not downloaded all the
> >messages.
> >
> >Better?
>
>

> Well, I followed what you said, but it didn't change the number of headers
> downloaded, though it acted like it attempted to, but I'm still missing
Rev.
> Tim's and probably other folks posts.
>
>

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to

Thomas Pawlenko wrote in message <8g4bpu$m4i$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>...
>I agree with your entire post, Glenallen.
>
>I have tried to find a "Malathion Church of Holy Redemption" using several
>phone directories of the entire US. Not one hit.
>
>There was also no hits for any town named Malathion(in case the church was
>named after the town it is in).
>
>In any case, the only use for the word "malathion" is a trademark for an
>insecticide. Perhaps "Rev Tim" fancies himself to be a giant cyber
>flyswatter.


Here is a bit of something a little bird told me:

I'm 99.9% sure that the "Rev. Timothy N Nurse" used to be the "Nit Nurse"
and
he is really a chap called David Morning. I believe he's at Glasgow
University.

This is the info in the source of his posts to s.c.s.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: tnn...@XYZ.usa.net (Rev Timothy N Nurse)
Newsgroups: alt.scottish.clans,soc.culture.scottish
Subject: Re: 'Clan' Akins - end of the line?
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:35:46 +0100
Organization: Malathion Church of Holy Redemption
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15>
References: <tnnurse-ya0235800...@130.209.34.15>
<mailto:8g38d3$h4n$1...@sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk>
<JibV4.1219$iF2.2...@news1.mia>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk

I'm sure the ": kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk" was the ID for "Nitty" and I
thought I
could go back into DejaNews to verify, but they are undergoing a major
overhaul and not available.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

remarq.com has this to say;

Member of these private message boards:
Rev Timothy N Nurse does not wish to share this information.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/

It is him :-) I guess in d...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk the dam stands for
David A Morning


http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/anthropology/sci.anthropology/archive/n
ovember-1996/0734.html

sci.anthropology
"Re: Paki gets his turban in a spin

The Nit Nurse (d...@kerrera.dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:04:39 +0000

Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]
Next message: Phillip E Werst: "Re: Paki gets his turban in a spin"
Previous message: Bill Burnett: "Re: ``With a MOO-MOO here and a QUACK-QUACK
there . . .''"
Maybe in reply to: : "Paki gets his turban in a spin"
Next in thread: Phillip E Werst: "Re: Paki gets his turban in a spin"
In article <garry-21119...@bar-nett.demon.co.uk>,
ga...@bar-nett.demon.co.uk (Daniel Barnett) wrote:

|>In article <848569...@drmac.demon.co.uk>, Dun...@drmac.demon.co.uk
wrote:
|>
|>Has anyone complained to this guy's network (Demon?)


Why? Because he's an idiotic nutter? Dunky's something of an institution
around these parts - you can always rely on him to post a feeble attempt
at flame bait, and laugh as it falls flat on its face. He's the Bernard
Manning of Usenet, he thinks he's funny but, in reality, he's just a sad
pathetic figure looking for attention. Why pander to his "martyr" complex
by complaining to his ISP? That's exactly what he wants.


Read Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi's rather entertaining rebuttal. That's
exactly how he should be dealt with."

Thanks little bird.


Séimí mac Liam

unread,
May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to
What you fail to understand, Ilky, is that virtually everyone but you
knew who the good Rev. was.


--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
My eyes are hazel as well as my nuts"
Canonized December '99


Akins of that Ilk <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1%mV4.378$CW1....@news4.mia...

Micheil

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
On Fri, 19 May 2000 12:53:26 +0100, tnn...@XYZ.usa.net (Rev Timothy N
Nurse) wrote:

>I might just do that. Maybe we'll discover why there were 10 Margaret
>Aiken's in Kilbarchan over a period of just 12 years!
>

This line alone testifies to the clarity and reasoning power of your
brilliantly logical and questioning mind. Well done - rarely have I
seen such a complete rebuttal so well presented. All that is left now
is for the Lord Lyon to add his imprimatur to your conclusions and I
believe we may soon see the Reverend Timothy elevated to the office of
Procurator-Fiscal!

Farewell to Akins of that Ilk, who now joins Prince Michael of Albany
in the ranks of those who overestimated the credulity of the Scots,
and in this case, the determination of one Scot to prove that he would
not be lied to and allow the liar to escape scot free.

I really am overwhelmed with admiration!

- měcheil

- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg......

-------------------------------------o0o--------------------------------------
The Blessed Fr. Měcheil ŕ Talisker et Lagavulin, S.J.
-------------------------------------o0o--------------------------------------

Bob Germer

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 02:49 PM,
"Shawn Kilpatrick" <ess...@gNoOlSdPeAnM.net> said:


> Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...

> >In article <oScV4.6579$QZ3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
> ><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> >><Rev. Nurse's surgical dismantling of Akins' pathetic rebuttal snipped>

> >Bye Steven - you are well toasted.

> Well toasted, or just toast?

Hoist on his own petard. Or more properly, hoist on his own burning cross.

Bob Germer

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 02:27 PM,

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> said:


> Sorry, I am not conversant in that language.

Nor in common decency.

Bob Germer

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
On 05/19/2000 at 01:57 PM,
"Lying Bigot Stevie Akins of the mixed race Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> said:

> What you perceive to be lies is actually your own inability to
> comprehend what is going on around you. Rev. Timothy's post has yet to
> make its appearance on my reader, as does my rebuttal and his followup
> response to it, all of which seem to have been dropped by my ISP. The
> fact that I posted a rebuttal to Tim's original message is only due to
> the fact that it was e-mailed to me by James Oliver on my e-mail, not my
> news reader. I would suggest that you shut up before further
> embarrassing yourself and your family by showing everyone how senile you
> evidently are.

Again you are caught in an outright lie. I saw your rebuttal which
included the entire text of Rev. Timothy's excellent scalding of your
worthless hide. It came from your newsreader, not from email. You cannot
send me email because I have your locked out of my inbox.

Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to

Bob Germer wrote in message <39261b98$7$obot$mr2...@news.pics.com>...

>On 05/19/2000 at 01:57 PM,
> "Lying Bigot Stevie Akins of the mixed race Ilk"
><sja...@bellsouth.net> said:
>
>> What you perceive to be lies is actually your own inability to
>> comprehend what is going on around you. Rev. Timothy's post has yet to
>> make its appearance on my reader, as does my rebuttal and his followup
>> response to it, all of which seem to have been dropped by my ISP. The
>> fact that I posted a rebuttal to Tim's original message is only due to
>> the fact that it was e-mailed to me by James Oliver on my e-mail, not my
>> news reader. I would suggest that you shut up before further
>> embarrassing yourself and your family by showing everyone how senile you
>> evidently are.
>
>Again you are caught in an outright lie. I saw your rebuttal which
>included the entire text of Rev. Timothy's excellent scalding of your
>worthless hide. It came from your newsreader, not from email. You cannot
>send me email because I have your locked out of my inbox.


Again, your ignorance is astounding! Timothy's post was e-mailed to me by
James Oliver. It ia a simple matter to copy the e-mail and then go to the
newsreader, pick a posting to reply to and delete the entire text and
replace it with the message which James e-mailed to me. It's called cut and
paste.

ian.s...@ukgateway.net

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
My apologies, folks.

The correct URL for TN Nurse's rebuttal is at

-- http://www.scs.informer.ukgateway.net/akins.htm

(with an "S" at the end of his name)

It should appear on the scs Informer website sometime over
this weekend and will also linked from the Index Page.

Look for the new entry, "Jactitation from Jasper is Judged"

-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.scs.informer.ukgateway.net/

Liz McLean

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
> >> I might just do that. Maybe we'll discover why there were 10 Margaret
> >> Aiken's in Kilbarchan over a period of just 12 years!
> >
> >All named for the same matriarch, possibly.
> >Alternatively, if it was the IGI that was referenced, the same individual
> >can get entere several times as various LDS members include them on their
> >tree, not always with the same degree of accuracy.
>
>
> It happens to be a fact that historically Scots have only used a very
small
> group of names to baptise their children with. Amongst girls, these are
> Agnes, Ann, Barbara, Elizabeth (or Elspeth), Isabell (or Isobel),
Margaret,
> Marjorie, Mary, Nancy, Rachel, Rebecca, etc. In order to get 12 Margaret
> Aikins in one parish in 10 years is no problem when you consider that in
the
> past families had between 8 and 10 or more children and would rename each
> generation using the same limited set of names as the generation before.
So,
> if you had a mother named Margaret Aikine who had 10 children in 1600, and
> say five of which would have been boys, then each of these boys would have
> in turn gone on to father 8,10, or 12 children of his own, making certain
to
> name at least one of his daughter's Margaret, after his mother, and so on
> and so forth, until within a very few generations of living in the same
> parish, you will have dozens of Margaret Aikines running about.

I was taught that naming goes like this (and in my family it did)
1st son--named for paternal grandfather
1st daughter--named for maternal grandmother
2nd son--named for maternal grandfather
2nd daughter--named for paternal grandmother
3rd son--named for father (if different from grandfathers names)
3rd daughter--named from mother(if different from grandmothers names)

So if Margaret Aikine had 9 sons and they each had at least 2 daughters,
that would account for 9 Margaret Aikines in one generation, and herself.


Liz McLean

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to

"James William Oliver" <j...@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8g38d3$h4n$1...@sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk...

> "Rev Timothy N Nurse" <tnn...@XYZ.usa.net> wrote in message
> > "Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

<snipped for brevity>
> Anyway, I challenge you to provide an equally comprehensive and convincing
> argument in your defense Mr Akins. Though I suspect you won't manage it,
> simply because there is no evidence to support your case. Accept it,
you've
> lost on all fronts. Your claims to a Clan have been rubbished and you've
> lost just about every other argument in the mean time. I think hanging
> around here and antagonising people can be counted as one of your biggest
> mistakes. I wonder how your clanspeople would respond if they saw this
> post? Just a thought.

Er, what clanspeople? No clan, noclanspeople, right?

> Anyway, three cheers for the Rev. Nurse, he deserves it. Have you
> considered forwarding this to other authorities who could take action
> against Clan Akins?

Duncan

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to
On Sat, 20 May 2000 11:21:40 +0100, Alan Hardie <axha...@clara.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Fri, 19 May 2000 21:52:23 -0000, "Akins of that Ilk"
><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Here is a bit of something a little bird told me:
>>
>>I'm 99.9% sure that the "Rev. Timothy N Nurse" used to be the "Nit Nurse"
>>and
>>he is really a chap called David Morning. I believe he's at Glasgow
>>University.
>>
>

>May we congratulate you on your extensive research into the origins of
>Clan Nurse.

Agreed. I think it took me several nanoseconds of concentrated thought
to connect the two............

-DDM

Lesley Robertson

unread,
May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00
to

Duncan wrote in message ...

>On Sat, 20 May 2000 11:21:40 +0100, Alan Hardie <axha...@clara.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 19 May 2000 21:52:23 -0000, "Akins of that Ilk"
>><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Here is a bit of something a little bird told me:
>>>
>>>I'm 99.9% sure that the "Rev. Timothy N Nurse" used to be the "Nit Nurse"
>>>and
>>>he is really a chap called David Morning. I believe he's at Glasgow
>>>University.
>>>
>>
>>May we congratulate you on your extensive research into the origins of
>>Clan Nurse.
>
>Agreed. I think it took me several nanoseconds of concentrated thought
>to connect the two............
>
>-DDM

That long????
;)
Lesley Robertson


Jon Croft

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
On Sat, 20 May 2000 13:17:19 +0100, ian.s...@ukgateway.net wrote:

>My apologies, folks.

Stop whining, Ian...

There is something wrong with my out-going email on this computer, so
I'll have to give you Rusty's caption over the public airwaves.

"Rusty wins an international darts contest and claims her prize.
She was hoping for a new car, but was disappointed to be awarded a man
named Lars instead."


Jon Croft
blue...@prodigy.net

Ian J McKiver

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
Steven,
yes, my wife has a sari decorated with 'swastikas' (rotating in the
other direction of course). It's remarkable the way people are prepared to
hijack the symbols of other cultures and turn them to their own nefarious
agendas. Akin to robbery I would say.
Cheers,
Ian.

Ian J McKiver

Akins of that Ilk wrote:

>
>
> Fascism? Well, being that the term is derived from the Fasces, which was a
> fortified axe whose main shaft was strengthened by the addition of many
> staves all bound together as one, it is not at all an entirely
> innappropriate metaphor for a clan. I believe the emblem appears on the
> reverse side of one of our coins as a symbol for our national motto, E
> Plurabis Unim "Out of Many [comes] One". Interestingly, the Jefferson
> County Courthouse in Birmingham, Alabama is prominently decorated with
> swastikas carved into its granite edifice. It was built in 1928 before the
> emblem became associated with a certain political movement which would later
> fall out of popularity here and abroad. As for the intrusive messages being
> wiped out, one can only speculate that the legitimate users of genforum
> complained to the administrator that the forum was being used
> inappropriately and that they took the appropriate actions to resolve the
> situation.


Ian J McKiver

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
James,
yes I can confirm that the post didn't appear on my (IBM) NewsServer
and that I requested a copy from you. Whilst I admire Timothy's research, which
adds much weight to the view that the Akin Clan has no validity, I don't see
why that should be used as an excuse for Ad Hominem attacks on Steven Akins.
He has certainly made racial posts that have offended me, but he is entitled to
his opinion (as I am to mine). a.s.c and s.c.s are for discussing things
Scottish, not for publicly humiliating those of a Scottish inclination
(regardless of how deserving).
Cheers,
Ian.

Ian J McKiver.

James William Oliver wrote:

> "Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:S4vV4.1173$8W6.2...@news1.mia...


> >
> > Bob Germer wrote in message <39261b98$7$obot$mr2...@news.pics.com>...
> > >On 05/19/2000 at 01:57 PM,
> > > "Lying Bigot Stevie Akins of the mixed race Ilk"
> > ><sja...@bellsouth.net> said:
> > >
> > >> What you perceive to be lies is actually your own inability to
> > >> comprehend what is going on around you. Rev. Timothy's post has yet to
> > >> make its appearance on my reader, as does my rebuttal and his followup
> > >> response to it, all of which seem to have been dropped by my ISP. The
> > >> fact that I posted a rebuttal to Tim's original message is only due to
> > >> the fact that it was e-mailed to me by James Oliver on my e-mail, not
> my
> > >> news reader. I would suggest that you shut up before further
> > >> embarrassing yourself and your family by showing everyone how senile
> you
> > >> evidently are.
> > >
> > >Again you are caught in an outright lie. I saw your rebuttal which
> > >included the entire text of Rev. Timothy's excellent scalding of your
> > >worthless hide. It came from your newsreader, not from email. You cannot
> > >send me email because I have your locked out of my inbox.
> >
>

> I did forward Timothy's posting to Steven. Indeed, Steven was not the only
> one who asked me to forward them a copy of the article, evidently news
> servers all over the place are being a bit selective with what they choose
> to hold. What ever we may think of his other views, this issue is quite
> separate and Steven deserves the chance to defend himself and prove his
> points.
>
> James


Ian J McKiver

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
Timothy,
another thought occurs to me. To this day in the Kyle area there
is a problem over names. There are, for instance, many MacCrae's and several
'John MacCrae's' To identify them it is common to include their village name and
John MacCrae of Achamore is often called 'John Achamore' or 'Johnny Ach'. Even if
'John of Akyne' did come from Skye, isn't it more likely he was 'John McKinnon of
Akyne'? If so, he would have thought of himself as a McKinnon, not an 'Ackyne'.
Cheers,
ian.

Ian J McKiver.


Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote:

>
>
> So now he claims that his family on Skye would have adopted another, unknown
> surname, whilst those elsewhere in the country would adopt the name of the
> village - of which there was none until the 19thC, or the area - which was
> Strathvardiel. O what a tangled web he lamely weaves.
>
>


Akins of that Ilk

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to

Ian J McKiver wrote in message <3929102D...@uk.ibm.com>...

>Timothy,
> another thought occurs to me. To this day in the Kyle area
there
>is a problem over names. There are, for instance, many MacCrae's and
several
>'John MacCrae's' To identify them it is common to include their village
name and
>John MacCrae of Achamore is often called 'John Achamore' or 'Johnny Ach'.
Even if
>'John of Akyne' did come from Skye, isn't it more likely he was 'John
McKinnon of
>Akyne'? If so, he would have thought of himself as a McKinnon, not an
'Ackyne'.
>Cheers,


In the Hebrides in the early 1400's the patronymic "Mac" surnames had not
yet become "fixed", so while John of Akyn may well have been of the
MacKinnon Clan, his last name would have been a reduplication of his
father's first name (whatever that would have been). MacKinnon is a surname
based on the founder of the Clan as a whole, Fingon or (Findanus as he is
sometimes called), so while the whole clan would have been the Clan
MacKinnon ("children of Fingon") most of the clan members would have been
known by the name of their father, and also sometimes by an additional
territorial label of the type to which you refer above. Names were not
formerly what they are today, and many people living today do not understand
that the concept of a fixed surname is of relatively recent date in the
Highlands and Islands, going back only two or three centuries.

Brash

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to

"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:uoiV4.7640$_w.19...@news4.mia...
>
> Brash wrote in message <8g45gs$m0r$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...
> >
> >"Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >news:ztgV4.7470$_w.18...@news4.mia...
> >>
> >> Brash wrote in message <8g42id$lc8$1...@merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU>...
> >>
> >> >Tools -> Get Next ### Headers...
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry, I am not conversant in that language.
> >>
> >
> >Move your mouse up to the menu bar of Outlook Express.
> >Now click on "Tools".
> >Now click on the text that says "Get Next ### Headers", where ### is a
> >number (probably 300).
> >You can repeat this if it still says you have not downloaded all the
> >messages.
> >
> >Better?
>
>
> Well, I followed what you said, but it didn't change the number of headers
> downloaded, though it acted like it attempted to, but I'm still missing
Rev.
> Tim's and probably other folks posts.
>

Interesting, you know all about news headers, but nothing about how to
download news articles.

The articles have probably been deleted off of your server by now, if you
could have downloaded them. So don't bother.

--Colin


Rev Timothy N Nurse

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
In article <YdaW4.2129$kx3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


<In the Hebrides in the early 1400's the patronymic "Mac" surnames had not
<yet become "fixed", so while John of Akyn may well have been of the

<MacKinnon Clan..

..he could equally, if not more so, could have had no connection with the
area at all. What evidence do you have to support this speculative claim?

--
-------------------------------------------
Visit my exciting new *improved* web pages at:
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister
-------------------------------------------

Akins of that Ilk

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to

Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...

>In article <YdaW4.2129$kx3.2...@news2.mia>, "Akins of that Ilk"
><sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> <In the Hebrides in the early 1400's the patronymic "Mac" surnames had not
> <yet become "fixed", so while John of Akyn may well have been of the
> <MacKinnon Clan..
>
>..he could equally, if not more so, could have had no connection with the
>area at all. What evidence do you have to support this speculative claim?


When a person has "of" in his name, as was the case with John of Akyne, it
is a clear indication that he is from a place of that name. What evidence do
you have to support your speculation that he was not of the place he stated
he was from in a legal court record? Are you suggesting that he was
purjuring himself for some reason in his effort to regain his ship and goods
that had been illegally seized in England? Also, the fact that he was a
maritime merchant is a pretty good indication that he was not a resident of
a landlocked area.

Ian Morrison

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
In article <3927104e...@news.primus.ca>,
Mic...@Ireland.com (Micheil) wrote:

>no less a person than Monseignor Lin Dores. who heads up
>the Inquisitorial Commission for Scotland, awarded it to me
>personally, no matter what you hear from the Vatican. So there!

CARDINAL Dores wishes it to be known that his Extreme Holiness
desires that no part be taken in this discussion by any member
of the One True Faith, lest the name of Our Saviour be sullied
by its association with racist numpties such as Akins.....

Ian Morrison
http://homestead.deja.com/user.ian_o_morrison/index.html

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


ian-s...@blueyonder.co.uk

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
On Mon, 22 May 2000 06:59:35 GMT, I read these words from
blue...@prodigy.net (Jon Croft) :

>On Sat, 20 May 2000 13:17:19 +0100, ian.s...@ukgateway.net wrote:
>
>>My apologies, folks.
>
>Stop whining, Ian...

An apology is now whining ? Where you coming from, like, man.
Are all you Granolans either flakey, nutty or fruity ?


>
>There is something wrong with my out-going email on this computer,

There, there diddums ! That big fancy box that you spent Gazzilions
of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on has let you down ? I told you to go down to
Circuit City and pick one up there but did you listen ? Nah !!!

>so I'll have to give you Rusty's caption over the public airwaves.
>
>"Rusty wins an international darts contest and claims her prize.
>She was hoping for a new car, but was disappointed to be awarded
>a man named Lars instead."

Is that really the best you can do ??? After TWO whole weeks !!!
Dearie, Dearie Me, Jings, Crivvens and Help Ma Boab !

I noted that the MacRobert brain cell appears to be expiring of
loneliness (or alcohol / unleaded gasoline abuse) and was affecting
his punning ability but what's happened to your acerbic wit ?

Did it heal up ?

-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.scs.informer.ukgateway.net/
>
>

> Jon Croft
> blue...@prodigy.net


Micheil

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to


<oops! we're going that that 'disengage yourself from politics' bit
again, are we?>

Micheil

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
On Mon, 22 May 2000 08:09:52 -0000, "Akins of that Ilk"
<sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>
>Ian J McKiver wrote in message <3929102D...@uk.ibm.com>...
>>Timothy,
>> another thought occurs to me. To this day in the Kyle area
>there
>>is a problem over names. There are, for instance, many MacCrae's and
>several
>>'John MacCrae's' To identify them it is common to include their village
>name and
>>John MacCrae of Achamore is often called 'John Achamore' or 'Johnny Ach'.
>Even if
>>'John of Akyne' did come from Skye, isn't it more likely he was 'John
>McKinnon of
>>Akyne'? If so, he would have thought of himself as a McKinnon, not an
>'Ackyne'.
>>Cheers,
>
>

>In the Hebrides in the early 1400's the patronymic "Mac" surnames had not
>yet become "fixed", so while John of Akyn may well have been of the

>MacKinnon Clan, his last name would have been a reduplication of his
>father's first name (whatever that would have been). MacKinnon is a surname
>based on the founder of the Clan as a whole, Fingon or (Findanus as he is
>sometimes called), so while the whole clan would have been the Clan
>MacKinnon ("children of Fingon") most of the clan members would have been
>known by the name of their father, and also sometimes by an additional
>territorial label of the type to which you refer above. Names were not
>formerly what they are today, and many people living today do not understand
>that the concept of a fixed surname is of relatively recent date in the
>Highlands and Islands, going back only two or three centuries.
>

This whole explanation smells bad to me.

Firstly, he would not have been called John unless he was a Southern
Scot (and then he would probably have been Jock) or an Englishman. He
would have been called Iain, as very few people at that time could
speak English.

Secondly, as half the Highlands is called Iain, he would have had to
have some more identifying information added. At that time, unless he
was from somewhere else, it would almost certainly have consisted of a
series of patronymics leading back to some easily recognized ancestor
of local fame.

For example, in a document in English dated 1599:

Dunacane McEan McGillichallum and Donald McKhucheon VcConeil
VcFerquhair.

Iain (John) of Akyne would have been meaningless as a way of
establishing an identification. Like asking for Yanto Jones in a Welsh
village.

The only other way he might have been identified would be if he had
done something interesting or had some outstanding characteristic.

Iain of the Battle Axes
One-eyed Iain

A flick through the Stornoway phonebook for J. and John MacDonald
makes the point perfectly. About a quarter of the listings?

(See, I know all this stuff but it doesn't occur to me until someone
brings it up...)

Stephen Hamilton

unread,
May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
ian-s...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

>
> I noted that the MacRobert brain cell appears to be expiring of
> loneliness (or alcohol / unleaded gasoline abuse) and was affecting
> his punning ability but what's happened to your acerbic wit ?
>
> Did it heal up ?
>
> --

Hold still whilst I goes and gets my flyswatter....


Jon Croft

unread,
May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
On Mon, 22 May 2000 20:37:38 GMT, ian-s...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

>On Mon, 22 May 2000 06:59:35 GMT, I read these words from
>blue...@prodigy.net (Jon Croft) :

>>There is something wrong with my out-going email on this computer,

>There, there diddums ! That big fancy box that you spent Gazzilions
>of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on has let you down ?

No, that one runs fine. it's my home computer that's being difficult.
It's the computer that my four year-old son decided to edit the
registry on... (He points and clicks with amazing speed, and a few
weeks ago I sat down and saw a registry-editing utility running.
*I* didn't start it, so I assume the little kid did it. E-mail hasn't
worked since.)

>>so I'll have to give you Rusty's caption over the public airwaves.

>>"Rusty wins an international darts contest and claims her prize.
>>She was hoping for a new car, but was disappointed to be awarded
>>a man named Lars instead."

>Is that really the best you can do ??? After TWO whole weeks !!!
>Dearie, Dearie Me, Jings, Crivvens and Help Ma Boab !

I thought it was pretty good, and I must say you've hurt me. I need
all the self-confidence I can get, because I'm about to publish my
"Clan Croft" web page. I've been doing some research, and it appears
that one of my ancestors won the Croft Chieftainship in a poker game
in 1573. Therefore, I'm entitled to ask the credulous for $15
per month.


Jon Croft etc (Ret)
blue...@prodigy.net

Ian O. Morrison

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00