Dalrymple Clan
Robert Shane Gau
Are they Scottish?
Thanks,
RSG
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Robert Shane Gau wrote in message ...
>I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
>Are they Scottish?
Very. They also have a lovely tartan all of their own. You will find a bit
of information on them in "The Clan and Family Encyclopedia" by Romilly
Squire and George Way of Pleans. The name is derrived from the lands of
Dalrymple, which is now part of the parish of Kyle in Ayrshire. Some believe
that the territorial name of Dalrymple is from the Gaelic "Dal-a-chrumpuill"
meaning "dale of the crooked pool", while others suggest that it is from
"dal-ri-mole" meaning "valley of the slaughter of kings", though the most
likely origin is the old Saxon "dahlhrympel" meaning "rumpled dale". The
first person on record as bearing the name appears in a charter given by
King Robert II in May 1371, confirming John Kennedy of Dunmore in part of
the barony, which was later completely obtained by him by 1377. Three
generations of Dalrymples were mentioned in this charter.
The crest badge of the Dalrymples is a rock Proper and their motto is
"Firm".
If you've never seen it before, get a video of the old Grade B classic
"Brigadoon", there is a Dalrymple character in it.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@sonet.net
Robert Shane Gau
My question now is, are they Scottish by origin?
It seems that they were Scottish people who invented thier own clan.
What's up with that?
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote in message
<4z3p4.786$Cx....@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
Bryn Fraser
<hea...@texas.net> writes
>I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
>Are they Scottish?
Yes but we forgive you... Look up "Stair, Marquess of"
>
>Thanks,
>
>RSG
>
>
Bryn Fraser
To the Phenomenologist, legend is an artifact.
SilntThnkr
>In article <si1p4.3156$0p1.1...@news4.giganews.com>, Robert Shane Gau
><hea...@texas.net> writes
>>I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
>>Are they Scottish?
>
>Yes but we forgive you... Look up "Stair, Marquess of"
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>RSG
>>
>>
>
>Bryn Fraser
>
>To the Phenomenologist, legend is an artifact.
ROFLMAO Yes Bryn but now he is just going to be very confused. Maybe he should
look up Glencoe. Here is a link to the site of an excellent rendition by
Robert M. Gunn - http://members.aol.com/Skyelander/mediev17.html
But even though Bryn was joking, we really do not hold grudges agaisnt the
ancestors of the people who were responsible for things that happened over 300
years ago. Well, at leaste I don't, that would be as dumb as hating somebody
for the color of thier skin or something else they couldn't control. Hell, if
I can forgive the Kieths I can forgive almost anyone (as long as they weren't
actually involved).
-David of the Clan Gunn
Stephen Hamilton
>
> But even though Bryn was joking, we really do not hold grudges agaisnt the
> ancestors of the people who were responsible for things that happened over 300
> years ago. Well, at leaste I don't, that would be as dumb as hating somebody
> for the color of thier skin or something else they couldn't control. Hell, if
> I can forgive the Kieths I can forgive almost anyone (as long as they weren't
> actually involved).
Now that we're all done blowing sunshine up each other's butts, can we *please* get
back to the slagfest?
Thank you.
MacRobert (who can't stand hardly anyone, regardless of skin color or 300-year-old
ancestors...)
anne.burgess
Robert Shane Gau wrote
>My question now is, are they Scottish by origin?
Dalrymples is in the charter of their lands to John Kennedy of Dunure in
1371'. So they certainly have a long pedigree in Scotland.
>It seems that they were Scottish people who invented thier own clan.
Well Dunure is in Ayrshire which is well outside the Highlands, and all the
other references to the name in Black's book are also in the Lowlands, so
they are certainly not a traditional Highland clan.
>What's up with that?
Lots of Scottish families who have no connection with the Highlands and
therefore no affiliation to a clan are now adopting the term to describe
themselves. There are even some whose names do not occur at all, or only
rarely, in Scotland, who now claim to be Scottish clans!
IMHO you can be confident that the Dalrymples are of Scottish origin, but
they are not a clan in the traditional meaning of the word.
Anne
Bryn Fraser
<hea...@texas.net> writes
>I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
>Are they Scottish?
>
>
>RSG
Joking apart.. The portrait of Sir Robert Dalrymple ('im what married a
Hamilton!) is one of the earlier ones to show tartan being worn, tho' it
is only a dressing gown...
>
>
Bryn Fraser
To the Phenomenologist, legend is an artifact.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Robert Shane Gau wrote in message ...
I'm not sure what you mean here. A great many of the Scottish clans
have ancestral origins outside of Scotland: i.e. the Bruces, the Cummings,
the Chisholms, the Frasers, the Grants, the Gordons, the Grahams, the
Lindsays, the Maxwells, etc. are all of Norman origin and came to Scotland
after the Norman Conquest of England in 1066. The Scots themeselves were not
originally from Scotland, but were from Ireland and did not come to Scotland
until 501 A.D. Many Clans of the Western Isles, the MacLeods, the Gunns,
etc. are partly of Norse origin. Now as for the Dalrymples it would appear
that they were a family who lived on the lands of Dalrymple and when it
became common for people to adopt a surname, they adopted the name of their
estate as their family name, as was the case with many Clans. Surnames were
not in use in Scotland or elsewhere until after the Norman Conquest, so all
family names are basically "made up" if you will, based upon either where a
person lived, what their occupation was, what their appearance was, or who
their father was.
Your Dalrymple family is just as Scottish as any other family, and it's
tartan is certainly older than many (by a full century compared to most), as
the Dalrymple family tartan can be authenticated back to a portrait of Sir
Robert Dalrymple of Castleton who is shown wearing the Dalrymple tartan in a
painting dated to 1720 (which by the way demolishes the ridiculous notion
that Scottish lowlanders did not wear tartan). The Arms, crest and motto
which are symbols of Clanship are just as authentic and as genuine as any of
the other Scottish Clans. You have a rich ancestral heritage and one whose
name you should be proud to bear as is your right to claim it as your
rightful name.
Shawn Kilpatrick
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
>
>Robert Shane Gau wrote in message ...
>
>>Thanks so much for the post.
>>My question now is, are they Scottish by origin?
>>It seems that they were Scottish people who invented thier own clan.
>>What's up with that?
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.
Oh, you know... call your family a "clan", call yourself a "chief",
appropriate another person's grant of arms, change your name... happens all
the time... :)
Shawn Kilpatrick
SilntThnkr
No way Shawn, who would have the nerve to do something so guoch? LOL
Sean MacUisdin
Can't say it rings any bells, unless...... naw. He's a real honest tae
guidness, gosh golly, who hoo, kick ass, big cheese, head honcho
extraordinaire, so it couldnae be him!
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"When Canada is dead and gone there'll be no more Celine Dion!" - MAC
(Mothers against Canada)
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Shawn Kilpatrick wrote in message <883p3q$5mj$1...@cougar.golden.net>...
>Oh, you know... call your family a "clan", call yourself a "chief",
>appropriate another person's grant of arms, change your name... happens all
>the time... :)
I take it that you are referring to my copyrighting the coat of arms that
appears on the gravestone of my fourth great grandfather Akins' younger
brother here in America, which was dated 1785? Evidently you do not realize
that the Revolutionary War (which ended a couple of years before Thomas
Akins untimely death) severed the legal ties between the British heraldic
authorities and those citizens here in the U.S. Likewise, the same action
severed the powers of the British authorities to make decisions determining
the continuation of succession to the head of families and clans who had
emigrated to the U.S. You simply must accept the fact that the British
government and all of its branches lost complete control over what goes on
in this country when Great Britain lost the Revolutionary War. They may take
the ridiculous position of presuming to have some authority, but in fact
they actually have none outside of Great Britain. It has been well over 200
years now, so I would suggest that you get over it.
Cook SLC
Mr. Akins claim that his actions are justified because we have severed our ties
with the British government and they have no control over us is a red herring.
He regularly uses this argument or accuses the writer of being a British
sympathizer or the like, even if they are an American Naval officer descended
from Revolutionary solidiers (American, to be clear) and CSA infantry. He
seeks to use British/Scottish styles/titles/terms yet asserts that as an
American he does not need to comply with the requirements for asserting these
styles, etc. It is an inconsistent postion: he wishes the honor granted by
Scottish custom, but does not take the steps to legitimately claim the honor
dictated by Scottish custom.
He has appropriated the arms from the grave of a person from whom he is not
descended. I could just as easily have beat him to the bunch and taken those
arms and registered them. Legal? In this country, depending on usage, yes.
Appropriate? Misleading? Well...
He has appropriated the Scottish--not American--term, chief, yet has not gone
through the Scottish (not English) steps to obtain that title.
He has denominated his family name as that of a Scottish (not American) Clan,
as that term is used in Scotland, when that name has never been recognized as a
Scottish Clan.
He has legally changed his name to "of that Ilk", and then incorrectly
indicates this implies state and federal recognition of his chiefly status.
By his example, I could change my name to "of that Ilk", use my legitimately
granted arms, have my family vote me chief (ok, it would be close, but I
control the allowances) and now I am chief of Clan Cook. I guess there could
also be a Clan Sapperstein, Ng, Mangione.....
He fails to address what would happen if he is voted out of office (for lack of
a better term). Does he have to change his name to drop "of that Ilk." Does
he have to stop using the arms he appropriated from another's grave? Does the
new person have to change their name and get new arms?
I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House of
Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted by a
foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and stop
this chief nonsense.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Robert Shane Gau
I am impressed.
Thank you.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
>
>Robert Shane Gau wrote in message ...
>>Thanks so much for the post.
>>My question now is, are they Scottish by origin?
>>It seems that they were Scottish people who invented thier own clan.
>>What's up with that?
>
Clan MacNeil in Canada Webmaster
Anyone in this NG want to join Clan Kaiser? I will soon have a grant of
arms made by the Canadian Heraldic Authority, and I am in the process of
registering a family tartan with the Tartan Society. As my father and
older brother are both still alive, I will of course have to kill them.
Oh. . . wait. . . I will have to kill my first cousin as well as he is
the first born son of the first born son of my departed grandfather.
all right, so once I get this nasty business of dispatching the three
impediments to my "Chiefship" I will be sending out the applications.
Please spread the word!
Kind Regards,
--
Charles R. (Out Damned Spot) Kaiser
Future Chief of Clan Kaiser in Canada (and the world!)
"Mori Anti Vincere"
SilntThnkr
Well, Charles I don't mind helping with the dirty work as long as I can get a
land grant or something in return, maybe be a chieftain. However if you going
to go to all this truble why odn't you become a Prince while your at it. All
you have to do is change your name the Prince Charles. then we could call you
BPC. Then you can pretend to make me an earl or something and I can change MY
first name to Earl. Of course I will have to kill my first cousin Earl, but I
never liked him much anyway and we can stick the body with the others.
-David of the Clan Gunn
Opps did I forget the <VBG> at the end of that paragraph?
Cook SLC
discount to members of Clan Kaiser.
Glen Cook
criminalcourt.cc
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Robert Shane Gau wrote in message
>Damn Akins.
>I am impressed.
>Thank you.
Glad to be of help. I had an 8th great grandmother who was a Dalrymple.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
<Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House of
>Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted by a
>foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
stop
>this chief nonsense.
It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in no
way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt. Cook.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
High Chief of the Name and Arms of Akins
sja...@sonet.net
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Clan MacNeil in Canada Webmaster wrote in message
<38A5BAF9...@clanmacneil.ca>...
>Hey,
>
>Anyone in this NG want to join Clan Kaiser? I will soon have a grant of
>arms made by the Canadian Heraldic Authority, and I am in the process of
>registering a family tartan with the Tartan Society. As my father and
>older brother are both still alive, I will of course have to kill them.
>Oh. . . wait. . . I will have to kill my first cousin as well as he is
>the first born son of the first born son of my departed grandfather.
>
>all right, so once I get this nasty business of dispatching the three
>impediments to my "Chiefship" I will be sending out the applications.
>Please spread the word!
>
>Kind Regards,
>--
>Charles R. (Out Damned Spot) Kaiser
>Future Chief of Clan Kaiser in Canada (and the world!)
I say herr Kaiser, was that your arms that I saw on the web-site of my
friend and heraldic artist, Donald Suttie Smith of Heraldic Graphics?
http://www.heraldicgraphics.demon.co.uk/products.htm ? Don is a fine fellow
and did quite a nice job on my heraldic achievement, even sent our
web-master a bit-map of the image for our Clan web-site.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Cook SLC wrote in message <20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>
> <Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>
> >I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House of
> >Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted by a
> >foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
> stop
> >this chief nonsense.
>
> It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in no
> way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
> Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt. Cook.
Listen to your faux clan.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <38A5F096...@home.com>...
>Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote:
>>
>> Cook SLC wrote in message
<20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>>
>> <Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>>
>> >I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House
of
>> >Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted
by a
>> >foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
>> stop
>> >this chief nonsense.
>>
>> It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in
no
>> way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
>> Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt.
Cook.
>
>LOL - more hollow claims. Very predictable.
No idea of what you are talking about, Sean. If you are suggesting that I
have no basis to believe that I am supported in my position as Chief of the
Clan Akins, I would invite you to peruse the following which is a partial
listing of entries for our 2000 Clan Akins membership directory which is
being prepared for release to our members within the next few weeks upon its
completion and printing. Here is a list of those who have been covered so
far by our Clan Secretary:
Year 2000 Clan Akins Membership Directory
(Aiken - Reeder)
Name: David R. Aiken
Born: 20 March, 1947
Profession: Educator
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Freemason
Ancestry: Descendant of Eleanor Hickman Aiken (1822-1854)
Family: Wife: Lana (Ragsdale) Aiken; children: Elisabeth C. Aiken, Jessica
G. Aiken.
Name: James Arthur Aiken
Born: 20 August, 1927
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of James Akin, b. 1764, d. 1844
Name: Jim D. Aiken
Born: 31 January, 1953
Profession: Locomotive Engineer
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Jerome Wilbur Akin, b. 1865 in Ohio, d. 1943 in
North Dakota.
Name: Leroy William Aiken
Born: 24 September, 1924
Profession: Retired (Engineer)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Freemason, Shriner, Lions Club, Veterans
of Foreign Wars, American Legion.
Ancestry: Descendant of James and Elizabeth (Kerr) Aiken of Castlederg, Co.
Tyrone, Ireland.
Name: Shawn Keith Aiken
Born: 9 December, 1957
Profession: Attorney
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Bar Association.
Ancestry: n/a
Name: Wallace Kirkland Aiken, Jr.
Born: 30 June, 1929
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Scottish Society of Indainapolis, Scottish
American Club.
Ancestry: Descendant of John Forsythe Aiken of Glasgow, Scotland.
Family: Wife, Nancy Graham Miller Aiken.
Name: Wilbur J. Aiken
Born: 29 August, 1936
Profession: Psychologist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Jerome Wilbur Aiken, b. 1865 in Ohio, d. 1943 in
North Dakota.
Name: George R. Aikins
Born: 3 May, 1941
Profession: Engineer
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of William Aickins, b. 1814 in Great Britain, moved to
Ohio and Indiana.
Name: Ronald Leason Aikins
Born: 26 January, 1941
Profession: Financial Manager, Accountant, Business Administrator.
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Scottish Rite Freemason, Shriner, Phi
Delta Kappa, Duquesne Alumni Association, Hillcrest Country Club.
Ancestry: Descendant of James C. Aikins, B. July 1821 in Cowshannock,
Armstrong Co., Pennsylvania.
Name: Dr. David Hay Aitken
Born: 1 August, 1920
Profession: Retired (Oral Surgeon)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Clan Hay Association
Ancestry: Descendant of David Aitken and Margaret Hay (m. 15 April, 1825)
St. Andrews & St. Leonards, Fife, Scotland.
Name: Gordon Aitken
Born: 5 February, 1933
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Clan Stewart Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Alexander Aitken, b. 1827 in Scotland.
Name: Ralph Edward Aitken
Born: 4 July, 1925
Profession: Retired (Accountant)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, House of Gordon, Scottish Society of the
Ozarks.
Ancestry: Descendant of William L. Aitken, b. 1807, d. 1874, of Washington
Co., Pennsylvania.
Family: Wife: B. Joan Aitken
Name: Fran Aitkens
Born: 26 February, 1942
Profession: Science Editor
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of John Aitken, b. 1600, Blairinbathie, Fifeshire,
Scotland, d. 1676, Beath, Fifeshire ; m. 1620 to Christian Dalgliesh.
Name: Catherine A. Rossos-Akin
Born: 15 October, 1962
Profession: Speech Pathologist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Scottish Genealogy Society, Somerset &
Dorset Family History Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of David Akin, b. 1640, Aberdeen, Scotland, immigrated
to Newport, Rhode Island before 1662.
Name: Damon D. Akin
Born: 22 April, 1963
Profession: School Teacher
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, National Teachers Association
Ancestry: Descendant of Henry Clay Akin of Texas
Name: Deborah Akin
Born: n/a
Profession: n/a
Affiliations: n/a
Ancestry: Descendant of Samuel Akin, (b. 1771 in South Carolina; d. 1844 in
Williamson Co., Tennessee), married Dorcas Starr.
Name: Dianna L. Akin
Born: 3 November, 1956
Profession: Medical Claims Specialist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Joseph Marion Akin of Kentucky.
Name: James D. Akin
Born: 6 March, 1948
Profession: Information Technology Manager
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Boy Scouts of America
Ancestry: Descendant of Lewis Akins B. 1735 Mecklenburg Co., Virginia, d.
1791 Laurens Co., S.C.
Family: Wife: Margaret R. Akin.
Name: Dr. John Marvin Akin, Jr.
Born: 1 November, 1928
Profession: Retired (Surgeon)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, American Medical Association, Alabama
State Medical Association, Phi Beta Kappa, Omega Delta Kappa.
Ancestry: Descendant of John T. Akin, b. 1796 York Co., South Carolina, d.
1868, Cherokee Co., Alabama, son of William Akins, Sr. and Elizabeth
McCorkle
Name: Joseph L. Akin
Born: 6 June, 1947
Profession: Industrial Maintance Mechanic
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Civil War Reinactor.
Ancestry: Descendant of John Akin (Sr.) of Pike Co., Georgia, son of James
Akin (b. 1750).
Family: Wife: Pamela; children: Glenn, Alan and Emily Akin
Name: Michelle M. Akin
Born: 26 June, 1967
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Andrew Akin of Pennsylvania and Virginia.
Family: Daughter: Meghan Danielle Akin.
Name: Manuel Akin
Born: 22 November, 1902
Profession: Retired (Menswear Store Owner, Volunteer Parole Officer)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Baptist Church Deacon
Ancestry: Descendant of Joseph Martin Akin, lived in Vicksburg, Mississippi
before 1880
Family: Wife: Virgie Olive (Batson) Akin (deceased); children: Kathleen
Akin, Mary Jane (Akin) Ogden, Martha (Akin) Hakle, Jim M. Akin.
Name: Robert Larry Akin
Born: 11 May, 1940
Profession: Information Technology Executive
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of David Akin, b. 1640 in Aberdeen, Scotland,
immigrated to Newport, Rhode Island before 1662.
Name: Billy Joe Akins
Born: 27 November, 1927
Profession: Retired (Automobile Dealership Owner, Dept. Housing & Urban
Development worker).
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Scottish Rite Freemason, Shriner, Disabled
American Veterans, American Legion, Legion of Honor, Sons of Confederate
Veterans, United Methodist Church.
Ancestry: Descendant of William M. Akins, b. 1829 Harris Co., Georgia; d.
1915, Hill Co., Texas, son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus of S.C..
Family: Wife: Martha Louise (Amos) Akins; children: Douglas Dale Akins,
Beverly Gayle (Akins) Mullen
Name: Euel Akins
Born: 14 October, 1920
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Lewis Akins, b. 1735 in Mecklenburg Co., Virginia;
d. 1791 in Laurens Co., S.C.
Family: Wife: Doris (Johnson) Akins
Name: Ivan Dale Akins
Born: 24 September, 1920
Profession: Retired (Reliability Engineer)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society (Florida Commissioner), Scottish Society of
North Central Florida, Freemason, Shriner.
Ancestry: Descendant of Benjamin W. Akins, b. 1791 in Ulster, Ireland, d.
1859 in Michigan.
Family: Wife: Hazel Akins
Name: Jack Walton Akins
Born: 19 September, 1934
Profession: Retired (Teacher)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, A.A.R.P., National Democratic Party,
Baptist Church.
Ancestry: Descendant of Edmond T. Akins, b.1813 in Greene Co., Georgia, d.
after 1887 in Fayette Co., Alabama, son of James and Nancy (Ivey) Akins.
Family: Wife: Alma Lorence (Seckel) Akins; children: Julia Lorene, Jack Jr.
and Tim Paul Akins.
Name: James Edward Akins
Born: 3 October, 1946
Profession: Electrician
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Jefferson Akins, b. 1857 in Marshall Co.,
Alabama, d. 1890 in Walker Co., Alabama, son of John Calvin Akins and Sarah
Ellen Watson.
Family: Wife: Barbara Ann (McFarrel) Akins; children: James Scott Akins,
Andrew James Akins, Cara Cathleen Akins, Sean Michael Akins.
Name: James Inman Akins, Jr
Born: 18 June, 1943
Profession: County Building Plans Reviewer
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary, Sigma Cgi,
Beta Psi
Ancestry: Descendant of Lewis Akins, b. 1735 in Mecklenburg Co., Virgina, d.
1791 Laurens Co., South Carolina.
Name: James Timothy Akins
Born: 24 May, 1968
Profession: Musician (Sea Island Company)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society (Clan Piper by Appointment to the Chief)
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Robert Akins, b. 1824 Harris Co., Georgia, d.
1895 Polk Co., Georgia, son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus
Family: Daughter: Victoria Leigh Akins
Name: James Wesley Akins
Born: 25 June, 1949
Profession: Retired (Maintenance Planner)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society (Hereditary Chieftain)
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Robert Akins, b. 1824 in Harris Co., Georgia,
d. 1895 Polk Co., Georgia, son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Family: Wife: Lady Kathie Dianne (Ray) Akins; children: James Timothy Akins,
Krista Leigh (Akins) Davis.
Name: Jimmy Donel Akins
Born: 2 April, 1924
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Scottiah Rite, Freemason
Ancestry: Descendant of Jimmy Robert Akins, son of Robert Akins of North
Carolina.
Family: Wife: Mae Bell Akins; children: Carol Ann and Henry Albert Akins.
Name: Jodie Don Akins
Born: 8 August, 1964
Profession: Manager/Computer Technician
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of George Akins, b. 1852, d. 1929
Name: Larry G. Akins
Born: 12 March, 1938
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, National Archives, Missouri State
Genealogical Association.
Ancestry: Descendant of Robert David Akins, b. 1789, Edinburgh, Scotland; d.
1845, Washington Co., Missouri
Name: Mildred Elizabeth Akins
Born: 5 November, 1911
Profession: Retired (Teacher)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Delta Kappa Gamma, Alpha Zeta Delta,
A.A.R.P.
Ancestry: Daughter of David Akins of Westport, New York, son of a whailing
ship captain.
Name: Nancy J. Akins
Born: 22 December, 1950
Profession: Archaelogist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, A.B.A., State Bar, Society for American
Archaelogy, American Association of Physical Anthropologists,
Paleopathological Association, etc.
Ancestry: Grand daughter of Miles O. Akins of Missouri, later moved to
southwest Colarado.
Family: Husband: John D. Schelberg
Name: Dr. Richard G. Akins
Profession: Professor of Chemical Engineering, KSU
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Martin Luther Akins, b. 1820 Harris Co., Georgia, d.
1864, Barbour Co., Alabama; son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Family: Wife: Eva Sue Akins; children: Christopher B. Akins, Susan L. Akins,
and Gregory D. Akins.
Name: Russel D. Akins
Born: 31 January, 1948
Profession: Private Investigator
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of James and Nancy (Ivey) Akins of Greene Co., Georgia.
Name: Sam V. Akins
Born: 21 April, 1933
Profession: Retired (Exeutive Vice President United Bank & Trust, Grapevine,
Texas)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Dallas Genealogical Society, Irving
Genealogical Society, Friends of Irving Public Libraries, United
Presbyterian Church (Edler).
Ancestry: Descendant of William M. Akins, b. 1829, Harris Co., Georgia, d.
1915, Hill Co., Texas; son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Family: Wife: Malta Lee (Evans) Akins; children: Shara Malynn, Melissa ,
and Marihelen L. Akins
Name: William Calvin Akins
Born: 18 April, 1926
Profession: Retired (Music Teacher, Singer)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Sons of Confederate Veterans, Sons of the
American Revolution, Magna Carta Barons, Sigma Nu.
Ancestry: Descendant of James Gilbert Akins, b. about 1830 in Georgia,
settled in Tippah Co., Mississippi 1853-54.
Family: Wife: Katherine F. Akins; son: William David Akins
Name: William Howard Akins
Born: 21 January, 1942
Profession: Professor (Ph.D. Theater)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Martin Luther Akins (1822 – 1864), son of William
Akins Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Family: Wife: Rebecca Ragan Akins
Name: George Jardine Akitt
Born: 8 June, 1920
Profession: Retired (Marine Chief Engineer)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Clan Jardine Society
Ancestry: Great grandson of Thomas Akitt (b. 1820, Yorkshire, England; d. in
Thornbury, Ontario, Canada.
Name: Irene McDermott Albert
Born: 19 April, 1936
Profession: Retired (Computer Systems Analyst)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Phi Beta Kappa
Ancestry: Great grand-daughter of Patrick Ekins of Ulster, Ireland.
Name: Janet M. Allard
Born: 4 January, 1928
Profession: Homemaker, Retired (Secretary)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Clan Stewart Society, Connecticut Society
of Genealogists.
Ancestry: Descendant of Alexander Aitken (d. at Westhills, Bucksburn,
Aberdeenshire, Scotland).
Name: Clara Camp Beatenbough
Born: 24 December, 1931
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Camp Family Association, LDS Computer
Club, Covenant Presbyterian Church, Barrow County Republican Party.
Ancestry: Descendant of William Akin (b. ca 1802 in Georgia; d. after 1885
in Pike Co., Georgia), m. Sarah Willis about 1823 in Georgia; parents of
Asenath, James and David Akin.
Family: Husband: Charles M. Beatenbough; children: Charles Jr., Sue Morris,
Hedy Farley, and John C. Beatenbough
Name: Janet Kay Bennett
Born: 7 December, 1956
Profession: Office Manager
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society (California State Commissioner), Order of
the Eastern Star
Ancestry: daughter of Donald Thomas Akins and Betty Louise Beery
Family: Son: Jeremiah Verald Hamilton
Name: Carolyn Akin Best
Born: 27 May, 1932
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Daughters of the American Revolution,
National Genealogical Society, Yalokusha County Genealogical Society, St.
Mary's (Maryland) Historical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of James and Nancy (Ivey) Akins of Greene Co., Georgia.
Name: Leslie Elizabeth Bigness
Born: 10 September, 1947
Profession: Artist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, North Carolina Watercolor Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of David Akins, a whaling ship captain from New York
state in the 1850’s.
Family: Husband: Prof. William J. Bigness; children: Lindsay Meade Bigness
and Devin William Bigness.
Name: Martha Jean Black Bullington
Born: 18 July, 1923
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Hamilton National Genealogical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of James Akins (b. ca. 1790-92 in Mecklenburg Co., NC,
D. 1872, Jasper Co., GA, son of John and Mary Akins, m. 4 Jan., 1816, Polly
Shi
Name: Carl Burch
Born: 16 October, 1936
Profession: Retired (U.S.. Navy)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, AARP, Baptist Church
Ancestry: Descendant of Joseph and Sarah Eakins of Abbeville District,
South Carolina, children moved to Kemper Co., Mississippi in the mid 1800’s.
Name: Thornton Akin Burns
Born: 12 July, 1932
Profession: Retired (U.S. Army)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of James and Nancy (Ivey) Akins of Greene Co., Georgia.
Name: Carol Ann Coughlin Candela
Born: 28 October, 1953
Profession: Homemaker, Volunteer
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Relief Society, Church Choir
Ancestry: Descendant of James F. Eakens
Family: Husband: James Michael Candela, son Michael Candela.
Name: Betty Cleland Cherry
Born: 3 September, 1922
Profession: Retired (Librarian)
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Historical Societies of Lancaster,
Northumberland and Union Counties, Pennsylvania.
Ancestry: Descendant of John Eken/Ekin (b. ca 1758 in Co. Antrim, Ireland;
d. 11 April, 1826 in Columbiana Co., Ohio), son of John and Mary (McQuigg)
Eakin of Co. Antrim, Ireland.
Name: Ruth Akins Clark
Born: 11 March, 1951
Profession: Retired (Teacher), Border Collie Breeder, Homemaker.
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Blenheim-Harwick Horticultural Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Alexander Akins (b. 1812 at Clones, Co.
Monaghan, Ireland), son of Thomas and Margaret (Giddens) Akins, emigrated to
New York prior to 1840, later to Ontario, Canada.
Name: Ronald E. Coolidge
Born: 21 August, 1948
Profession: Jeweler
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, National Rifle Association, Ducks
Unlimited
Ancestry: Descendant of Nathan Akins (b. 1 October, 1844 in Polk Co.,
Missouri), son of James Akin (b. 6 January, 1796 in Georgia).
Family: Wife: Linda J. Coolidge
Name: Joan M. Croson
Born: 24 October, 1946
Profession: Antiques Dealer
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, National Historical Society, National
Genealogical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of Ezekiel Akins (b. about 1810 in South Carolina,
lived in Pickens Co., Georgia between 1850-1880).
Name: Krista Leigh Akins Davis
Born: 4 January, 1972
Profession: Dental Hygienist
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, American Dental Hygiene Association.
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Robert Akins (b. 1824 Harris Co., Georgia; d.
1895 in Polk Co., Georgia), son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Family: Husband: Alexander Davis
Name: Mary Elizabeth Davis
Born: 24 June, 1936
Profession: Legal Secretary, former Teacher.
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, numerous genealogical organizations
Ancestry: Descendant of John T. Akins (b. 1796 in York Co., South Carolina;
d. 1868 in Cherokee Co., Alabama), son of William Akins, Sr. and Elizabeth
McCorkle.
Name: Alice Irene Akins DenHaese
Born: August 29, 1951
Profession: Secretary
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, World Wildlife Fund, The Nature
Conservancy, The Humane Society of the U.S.
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Jefferson Akins (b. 1857 in Marshall Co.,
Alabama; d. 1890 in Walker Co., Alabama), son of John Calvin Akins and Sarah
Ellen Watson.
Name: Jo Diescher
Born: 11 April, 1941
Profession: Retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of James Akin, b. 1810 in Delaware Co., New York; d.
Liberty Co., New York.
Name: Curtis Richard Eakin
Born: 3 January, 1945
Profession: Certified Public Accountant
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, various professional organizations.
Ancestry: Descendant of Nathan Eakin, Sr. (b. 1751; d. 1823 Botetourt Co.,
Virginia), son of William Eakin and Isabel Morrison; m. Susannah Preston in
1785, Bedford Co., Virginia.
Family: Wife: Lee Harris Eakin; children: Curtis Richard Eakin II, David
Doan Eakin
Name: Jack Hamilton Eakin
Born: 23 March, 1923
Profession: retired
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Samuel Eakin (b. 1769, Co. Derry, Ireland; m. Mary
Riley in 1794; emmigrated to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the spring of
1798).
Family: Wife: Mary Ann Eakin
Name: Richard Clinton Eakins, Sr.
Born: 23 April, 1931
Profession: retired
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Sons of the American Revolution.
Ancestry: Descendant of Joseph Eakins (b. 1770-75, Co. Tyrone, Ireland;
emigrated to the Carolinas).
Name: Sarah Akins English
Born: 10 August, 1923
Affiliations: Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of John H. Akins (b. 1801 Greene Co., Georgia; d. 1882
Spalding Co., Georgia), son of James and Nancy (Ivey) Akins of Greene Co.,
Georgia; m. Hixsey Harris in 1824 in Georgia.
Family: Husband: Millard F. English; daughters: Patricia Dianne Wagner,
Linda Sue Waddle
Name: LaVon Aiken Fairbanks
Born: 14 July, 1922
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of George Aiken (b. 1786 in [West] Virginia; d. 1860-61
Berkeley Co., Virginia; m. Elizabeth Ball in 1825 in Winchester Grant,
Virginia).
Name: Calvin W. Gage
Born: 14 February, 1929
Profession: retired
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, St. Andrews Society of Illinois
Ancestry: Descendant of Robert Eakin (b. ca 1787 in Co. Derry, Ireland, m.
Margaret Bates, emigrated to America in 1840), grandson of Robert Eakin of
Galloway, Scotland who emigrated to Beneghar, Derry, Ireland.
Name: Linda K. Hartsock
Born: 16 January, 1954
Profession: Diplomat
Affiliatons: The Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of James Aiken (b. ca 1810 in Ireland)
Name: William W. Hatcher
Address: 135 Wilderness Tr. N.W., Milledgeville, GA 31061
Born: 23 March, 1950
Profession: Southern Company Employee
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Wilkinson Co. Historical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of Archer Akins, (b. 1700’s in South Carolina), son of
Lewis Akins of Mecklenburg Co., Virginia, who died in Laurens Co., South
Carolina in 1791.
Name: Nancy Hays
Born: 26 August, 1927
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, The Clan Hay Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of John Bernard Aiken (b. 1871 in Ireland/New York ; m.
Elizabeth Aiken), son of William and Margaret Rhoden Aiken of Bandon,
Ireland
Family: Husband: K. Wayne Hays; children: Peter, Leslie, and Daniel Hays.
Name: Peggy Akins Helton
Born: 28 August, 1936
Profession: retired
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of William Ira Akins (b. 1824 in Ireland; d. 1897 in
Floyd Co., Georgia), m. Frances Shelly on board ship before landing in
America.
Name: Jo Hill
Born: 24 July, 1935
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, various Genealogical Societies.
Ancestry: Descendant of John J. Akins (b. ca 1818 in Alabama), m. Gatsy Ann
Foster in 1867 in Houston, Chickasaw Co., Mississippi. Father of George W.
and Ambrose Fletcher Akins.
Name: Dorothy J. Aitken Howard
Born: 23 February, 1931
Profession: Retired (Paralegal)
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, New England Historical and
Genealogical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of Alex Aitken of Scotland.
Name: Dr. Dorothy Akin Jens
Born: 28 February, 1923
Profession: Retired (School Psychologist)
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, The Clan Henderson Society, Quebec
Family History Society, Stanstead History Society .
Ancestry: Descendant of James Charles Akin (b. 1830, Quebec, Canada), son of
Thomas Akin (b. 1800 in Ireland) and Elizabeth Gamble; settled in New
Glasgow, Terrebonne, La Corne Parish, Quebec, Canada.
Family: Husband: Dr. Wayne Henry Jens; children: Dr. Kathryn Jens, Martha
Jens Bale, Emily Jens Walker, and Andrew Akin Jens.
Name: Joyce R. Jones
Address: 103 N. 7th St., Tipp City, OH 45371
Born: 28 August, 1929
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Tipp City Methodist Church.
Ancestry: Descendant of Rebecca Jane Akins Bennett (b. 1848, d. 1881).
Family: Husband: Woodfin Bennett Jones, children: Carrie Ebert, Lee Jones,
Allan Jones, Becky Baker.
Name: Dr. Hazel Theresa Kisor
Profession: Attorney, School Superintendant (retired).
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Daughters of the American Revolution.
Ancestry: Descendant of Melvina Akins (b. 1811, York Co., South Carolina; d.
after 1860, Cherokee Co., Alabama), daughter of William Akins, Sr. and
Elizabeth McCorkle. Also a descendant of Elizabeth Akins (b. 1790 York Co.,
South Carolina), daughter of John and Mary Akins.
Family: Husband: Waylan Kisor; children: Jeffery Andrew Kisor and Valerie
Theresa Kisor.
Name: Jack Marshall
Born: 27 September, 1935
Profession: Clan Akins Society, Clan Elliot Society, South Bay Scottish
Society, Tartan Educational and Cultural Association.
Ancestry: Descendant of Mary Akin/Aiken of Londonderry, Vermont, a
descendant of Edward Aiken who settled at Londonderry, New Hampshire in
1722.
Name: Albert Hugh Martin
Address: 1306 e. 71st St., Savannah, GA 31404
Born: 24 September, 1932
Profession: Salesman
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, The Clan Campbell Society, Nature
Conservancy, World Wildlife Federation.
Ancestry: Descendant of Francis Akins (b. 1767 in Virginia or North
Carolina; d. 1833 in Lowndes Co., Georgia), son of Lewis and Elizabeth
Akins.
Name: Geneva Akins Milam
Born: 29 September, 1925
Profession: Retired (Secretary).
Ancestry: Descendant of William Ira Akins (b. 1824 in Ireland; d. 1897 in
Floyd Co., Georgia; m. Frances Shelly on board ship en route to America).
Family: Husband: Weyman Chesley Milam; children: David Spencer Pruitt, Jr.,
Robert Edward Milam, Susan Ann Milam.
Name: Carolyn Haymans Moore
Born: 31 May, 1944
Profession: Librarian
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society
Ancestry: Descendant of Lewis Akins (b. ca 1735 in Mecklenburg Co.,
Virginia; d. 1791 in Laurens Co., South Carolina), son of John Akin of
Chesterfield Co., Virginia.
Name: Anne S. Neal
Address: 10596 N.C. Hwy. 150, Reidsville, N.C. 27320
Born: 6 March, 1926
Profession: Retired (registered Nurse, Teacher)
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Rockingham, Duplin and Caswell
Counties (North Carolina) Historical Societies.
Ancestry: Descendant of Lewis Akins (b. 1735 in Virginia; d. 1791 Laurens
Co., South Carolina). Son of John Akin of Chesterfield Co., Virginia.
Name: Richard Henry Neidert, Jr.
Born: 5 August, 1952
Profession: Retired (Laborer)
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society (Ohio Commissioner), House of Gordon,
Clan Cameron Society, Scottish American Cultural Society of Ohio.
Ancestry: Grandson of John Niven Aitken, Jr. (b. 1894 in Glasgow,
Lanarkshire, Scotland; d. 1956 in Akron, Ohio), son of John Niven Aitken,
Sr. and Elizabeth (Young) Aitken of Glasgow.
Name: Alice Irgens Noble
Born: 10 August, 1940
Profession: Homemaker, former teacher and school psychologist.
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, the Clan Scott Society, The Clan
MacCallum Society, New England Historical and Genealogical Society, National
Genealogical Society, Daughters of the American Revolution, etc.
Ancestry: Descendant of Lotan Akin (b. ca. 1785 in New York; d. aft. 1840 in
Crawford Co., Pennsylvania), m. 1850 to Sarah Mudge.
Family: Husband: Dr. David A. Noble; son, James McCallum Noble.
Name: Corrine Akins Pinson
Address: 1468 Paragon Pkwy, Birmingham, AL 35235
Born: 4 June, 1920
Profession: Retired (Teacher)
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Birmingham Genealogical Society, Round
Table Book Club, Ruhama Baptist Church (Bible teacher).
Ancestry: Descendant of William M. Akins (b. 1829 in Harris Co., Georgia; d.
1915 in Hill Co., Texas), son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary Quatermus.
Name: Rebecca Pool
Born: 2 November, 1962
Profession: Secretary
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society (Arkansas Commissioner, Director of
Internet Communications, 1999 Clansperson of the Year), Cass County (Texas)
Genealogical Society.
Ancestry: Descendant of William Akin (b. ca 1790 in Kentucky, m. 1812 in
Lincoln Co., Kentucky to Rebecca McKinney), son of James and Mary (Murphy)
Akin.
Family: Husband, Robert Pool; son: Jeff Goss.
Name: Karen Elizabeth Reeder
Born: 27 December, 1939
Profession: Antique Dealer
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, Antique Dealers Society of America.
Ancestry: Descendant of Thomas Robert Akins (b. 1824 in Harris Co.,
Georgia; d. 1895 in Polk Co., Georgia), son of William Akins, Jr. and Mary
Quatermus
Name: Sara Jo Reynolds
Address: 6002 Paul Buchman Hwy., Plant City, FL 33565 E-mail:
famil...@juno.com
Born: 2 July, 1942
Profession: Homemaker
Affiliations: The Clan Akins Society, The Clan Morrison Society, Daughters
of the American Revolution, United Daughters of the Confederacy, Harlon
Family Association, Kemp Family Association.
Ancestry: Descendant of Sherrod Sheffield Akin (b. 1816 in Wayne Co.,
Georgia) son of William and Flora (Sheffield) Akin; m. 1835 in Wayne Co.,
Georgia to Elizabeth Kemp.
.
John
David Wrote: (well maybe part of it anyway)
> >Hey,
> >
> >Anyone in this NG want to join Clan Kaiser? I will soon have a grant of
> >arms made by the Canadian Heraldic Authority, and I am in the process of
> >registering a family tartan with the Tartan Society. As my father and
> >older brother are both still alive, I will of course have to kill them.
> >Oh. . . wait. . . I will have to kill my first cousin as well as he is
> >the first born son of the first born son of my departed grandfather.
> >
> >all right, so once I get this nasty business of dispatching the three
> >impediments to my "Chiefship" I will be sending out the applications.
> >Please spread the word!
> >
> >Kind Regards,
> >--
> >Charles R. (Out Damned Spot) Kaiser
> >Future Chief of Clan Kaiser in Canada (and the world!)
> >
> >"Mori Anti Vincere"
>
> Well, Charles I don't mind helping with the dirty work as long as I can
get a
> land grant or something in return, maybe be a chieftain. However if you
going
> to go to all this truble why odn't you become a Prince while your at it.
All
> you have to do is change your name the Prince Charles. then we could call
you
> BPC. Then you can pretend to make me an earl or something and I can
change MY
> first name to Earl. Of course I will have to kill my first cousin Earl,
but I
> never liked him much anyway and we can stick the body with the others.
>
> -David of the Clan Gunn
> Opps did I forget the <VBG> at the end of that paragraph?
Don't count me in on all the killing! I think that there is enough of that
going on without my help. What I was wondering, was, this. My Brother was
named William, (in German Wilhielm) Would he be Kaiser Wilhielm? Is a
Kaiser not in a greater position than a Chief? More on the equivalent of
King. As Kaiser of Kanada, could you not Kross out the aKin's?
I'm not messing around any more. With my Brother becoming a Kaiser, I am
changing my name to King Emperor of the World! No maybe King of the
Universe, Ruler of the Kosmose? Maybe just as well, maybe I could get
voted in as Chief of the Komatose! Anything, but Of That Ilk Klan!
Iain...
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <38A60DAC...@home.com>...
>RAOTFLMAO!!!!! - a list of the easily gullible and nothing more than
>pathetic name dropping. One would hope they don't mind having their
>names dragged through the mud behind you.
The only mud is in your eye my pathetic friend. I would hardly consider my
fellow Clanspeople to be "easily gullible" as you suggest, many members of
the Clan Akins are well-educated professional men and women who are probably
more academically certified than most of the members of this ng. All members
of the Clan Akins Society upon application for membership sign a pledge to
uphold the Clan and the Chief; no one holds any gun to their head, but it is
done freely of their own accord.
>Anyway, listing them does not, by any length of the imagination, ensure
>they support your inane prattlings. Goodness, even you should know that.
I state my opinions as being my own and I certainly make no requirement that
any of my Clan members agree with me on my personal opinions regarding
social issues, etc. That is a matter of personal choice. Most of my
"prattlings" as you like to refer to them are merely replies to your
self-righteous indignation that you cannot force me to believe as you wish.
I would suggest that you have done far more prattling on this ng than myself
or anyone else.
Shawn Kilpatrick
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
>>LOL - more hollow claims. Very predictable.
>
>No idea of what you are talking about, Sean. If you are suggesting that I
>have no basis to believe that I am supported in my position as Chief of the
>Clan Akins, I would invite you to peruse the following which is a partial
>listing of entries for our 2000 Clan Akins membership directory which is
>being prepared for release to our members within the next few weeks upon
its
>completion and printing. Here is a list of those who have been covered so
>far by our Clan Secretary:
<snip>
Apparently P.T. Barnum was right...
SK
Tiss
SilntThnkr wrote:
> >
> >In article <si1p4.3156$0p1.1...@news4.giganews.com>, Robert Shane Gau
> ><hea...@texas.net> writes
> >>I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
> >>Are they Scottish?
> >
> >Yes but we forgive you... Look up "Stair, Marquess of"
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>RSG
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Bryn Fraser
> >
> >To the Phenomenologist, legend is an artifact.
>
> ROFLMAO Yes Bryn but now he is just going to be very confused. Maybe he should
> look up Glencoe. Here is a link to the site of an excellent rendition by
> Robert M. Gunn - http://members.aol.com/Skyelander/mediev17.html
>
> But even though Bryn was joking, we really do not hold grudges agaisnt the
> ancestors of the people who were responsible for things that happened over 300
> years ago. Well, at leaste I don't, that would be as dumb as hating somebody
> for the color of thier skin or something else they couldn't control. Hell, if
> I can forgive the Kieths I can forgive almost anyone (as long as they weren't
> actually involved).
>
> -David of the Clan Gunn
Thank you David. I was just going to suggest something like that. Too often those
of us on this ng tend to make jokes to the newcomers or out & out ignore them. I
think we should make an effort to answer their questions or steer them in the
proper direction instead of making "insider jokes" about what must be confusing.
I know how they feel. It wasn't that long ago that I didn't know anything about
Scotland. Thankfully I joined a BB who were very helpful in educating me.
To most people, everyone who had ancestors from Scotland think they had to belong
to a Clan. In actuality all of the great accomplishments were done by the
Lowlanders. Its just that the mighty Highlander, swinging his Claymore & dressed
in full kilt, fighting for the freedom of his people against the English that is
presented to the world.
It makes good press as we say in America. What is more romantic then the giant,
kilt wearing, barechested, barbarian like David .........whoop,
cough......LOL.....ohhhh I can't stand any more.......giggle...giggle
Tiss
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Shawn Kilpatrick wrote in message <88577e$pfh$1...@cougar.golden.net>...
>Apparently P.T. Barnum was right...
Yes, they were all standing in line back in 1822 dressed to the nines in
what the tailors assured them was their "authentic Clan tartan" <snikker>
and they all bowed down as the ponderous little German man outfitted in a
kilt of Royal Stuart tartan was presented with the Honors of Scotland which
had been recently rediscovered by the the Scottish P.T. Barnum himself,
nicely decked out in Campbell tartan trews (as the Scott tartan would not be
invented for another twenty years by those charletans of the tartan trade,
the brothers Sobieski-Stuart).
Tiss
Stephen Hamilton wrote:
> SilntThnkr wrote:
>
> >
> > But even though Bryn was joking, we really do not hold grudges agaisnt the
> > ancestors of the people who were responsible for things that happened over 300
> > years ago. Well, at leaste I don't, that would be as dumb as hating somebody
> > for the color of thier skin or something else they couldn't control. Hell, if
> > I can forgive the Kieths I can forgive almost anyone (as long as they weren't
> > actually involved).
>
> Now that we're all done blowing sunshine up each other's butts, can we *please* get
> back to the slagfest?
>
> Thank you.
>
> MacRobert (who can't stand hardly anyone, regardless of skin color or 300-year-old
> ancestors...)
Stephen, you really ought to have a talk with your alter-ego, McRobert. He sounds like
he is in sad shape. GBG
Tiss
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000212230618...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
>>More sour grapes I take it, Capt. Cook.
>
>
>And, since you say "more", what were the original sour grapes?
>Glen Cook
The "more" was in reference to the fact that we have gone through this quite
throughly once before, however as a follower of Ken Urquhart I see that it
still does not set well with you when someone such as myself has the
appititude to accomplish something greater than is realized by most
individuals, an accomplishment which has more honor by virture of the fact
that it is laboriously obtained rather than purchased from those who peddle
parchments. A following cannot be bought, but must be earned, and through my
efforts to establish my clan, I have earned the respect and gratitude of my
clanspeople, something which means far more to me than the fickle oppinions
of onlookers, or the letters patent of foreign bureaucrats.
Sean MacUisdin
(snip laughable bit of spam)
RAOTFLMAO!!!!! - a list of the easily gullible and nothing more than
pathetic name dropping. One would hope they don't mind having their
names dragged through the mud behind you.
Anyway, listing them does not, by any length of the imagination, ensure
they support your inane prattlings. Goodness, even you should know that.
Stephen Hamilton
MacRobert's Steak House? We hate to see good meat go to waste, although
if you could dispatch a few Stewarts we'd be ever so grateful too.
His Grace, Duke Stiobhan
MacRobert of MacRobert
(patent pending)
Cook SLC
Sour grapes regarding???
And, since you say "more", what were the original sour grapes?
Glen Cook
Robert McKay
>From: coo...@aol.comnojunk (Cook SLC)
>Date: 2/12/00 9:56 AM Mountain Standard Time
>I guess there could
>also be a Clan Sapperstein, Ng, Mangione.....
My wife's very extended family - Chae - is more of a clan than the Klan you're
discussing. Every single Korean with the family name Chae is literally
related, however distantly, to every other Korean with that family name. And
since when Korean women marry they traditionally keep their family name, and
since they also marry into their husband's family, that means that no member of
a Korean "clan" is a member by marriage; it's by birth or not at all. There
are several million Koreans in the Chae "clan" - and there are three other
major "clans" in Korea (Kim, Lee/Yi, and Pak/Park), along with however many
minor "clans."
Yet Koreans don't claim to have clans a la the Highlands. They have more
sense. Too bad a very, very few Americans, drunk on their own self-importance,
can't be as rational.<sigh> This character has been disrupting this NG for
weeks now - months, I guess. And even though I try, I can't get away from him;
someone always has to keep him before my eye.
Robert McKay/Raibeart MacAoidh
AOL - Goffs California
E-mail - goffsca...@aol.com
Osan AB, ROK, 2146CG - DEC78-DEC79
Robert McKay
>From: Tiss ejth...@i1.net
>Date: 2/12/00 8:34 PM Mountain Standard Time
> Its just that the mighty Highlander, swinging his Claymore & dressed
>in full kilt, fighting for the freedom of his people against the English
>that is
>presented to the world.
Aye, an there war times when th Heeghlanders fit on th side o th bluidy
Sassenachs tee. Romantic notions are a fine an dandy, but romance dinna mak a
notion richt.
There's about as much truth to the stereotype of all Scots being
whisky-drinking, claymore-wielding, bagpipe-skirling warriors against the
English as there is to the stereotype of all Americans being ten gallon
hat-wearing, pistol shooting, bronco-busting cowboys.
BTW, I grew up around real cowboys; they weren't much like what you see on
TV.<g>
Robert McKay/Raibeart MacAoidh
AOL - Goffs California
E-mail - goffsca...@aol.com
PATH=C:\HELP\NEEDHELP\MOREHELP\SENDHELP\OH_NO\OOPS
Robert McKay
>From: "Shawn Kilpatrick" ess...@SgPoAlMdSeUn.CnKeSt
>Date: 2/12/00 8:06 PM Mountain Standard Time
>Apparently P.T. Barnum was right...
My experience leads me to believe that Barnum was far too charitable in his
assessment of the human race.
Robert McKay
>From: Sean MacUisdin sean.ma...@home.com
>Date: 2/12/00 8:30 AM Mountain Standard Time
>Can't say it rings any bells, unless...... naw. He's a real honest tae
>guidness, gosh golly, who hoo, kick ass, big cheese, head honcho
>extraordinaire, so it couldnae be him!
Niver! He's a genuine Scottish chief, an nae chief wad hae the gall tae mak up
a phony story!
SilntThnkr
>> But even though Bryn was joking, we really do not hold grudges agaisnt the
>> ancestors of the people who were responsible for things that happened over
>300
>> years ago. Well, at leaste I don't, that would be as dumb as hating
>somebody
>> for the color of thier skin or something else they couldn't control. Hell,
>if
>> I can forgive the Kieths I can forgive almost anyone (as long as they
>weren't
>> actually involved).
>>
>
>Thank you David. I was just going to suggest something like that. Too often
>those
>of us on this ng tend to make jokes to the newcomers or out & out ignore
>them. I
>think we should make an effort to answer their questions or steer them in the
>proper direction instead of making "insider jokes" about what must be
>confusing.
>I know how they feel. It wasn't that long ago that I didn't know anything
>about
>Scotland. Thankfully I joined a BB who were very helpful in educating me.
>
>To most people, everyone who had ancestors from Scotland think they had to
>belong
>to a Clan. In actuality all of the great accomplishments were done by the
>dressed
>in full kilt, fighting for the freedom of his people against the English
>that is
>presented to the world.
>
>giant,
>kilt wearing, barechested, barbarian like David .........whoop,
>cough......LOL.....ohhhh I can't stand any more.......giggle...giggle
>
>Tiss
LOL Ok Tiss, that is the last picture I send you of me with my shirt off. : )
I will never live that down. Besides I believe Iain is more the barbarian
size, he is like 6'3" isn't he? And I am also afraid that the only swords I
own are the one I teach the Katana. But I will play the Barbarian Highlander
if your daughter plays the shy Scottish lass (as if there IS such a thing)
LOL. Hey Tiss, we can write our OWN chapter. ROFLMAO
Cook SLC
opportunity and think a great deal of our Chief. I'm not sure though what that
has to do with it. I would note that I am speaking for myself, and not the
Urquhart, and have not posted my clan affiliation in these posts. I wasn't
aware that you were aquainted with him.
2. No, you've not accomplished anything that any number people could not
accomplish, as I pointed out in my prior post. To be guilty of sour grapes,
you would have to have something I covet, and could not have. A misleading
name? No. A false claim to chiefship? No. Someone else's arms. No. I
don't want those things. I could have those, but then I wouldn't have my self
respect or that of people whom I hold in high regard. Certainly, I cannot see
that your activities were done with honor. I will concede that it was hard
work.
I would again note that had you started an Akins family organization; House of
Akins, as I outlined before, I would applaud your efforts.
3. I'm not sure what you mean by purchasing a peddled parchment, unless you
are referring to a name change which is purchased. If you are referring to The
Urquhart, his chiefship was inherited from his father. If you are referring to
arms, my prior post pointed out that I didn't see a need to apply for a family
organiation or an American to apply for foreign arms (Lyon, Russian, Spain or
South Africa). I do not think it's a good thing to appropriate those of
another and claim them as your own.
4. Actually, sadly, it would appear to me that a following can be bought. You
just buy a name change. Spend some money and buy a web site. Appropriate a
dead man's arms and pay the money to copyright them as your own.
On the other hand, some of us have earned our degrees, our commissions,
standing in our community and professions, elected positions in our
fraternities. No, Mr. Akins, I am not jealous of what you have done.
5. I don't know why you would say fickle. It seems I have been rather
resolute in my opinions.
6. You are correct that I am, in a sense, an onlooker. Certainly that is true
regarding internal workings of your organization. However, I am also part of
the Scottish community. You claim a title and status in that community. You
should expect comments from such as myself based on your claims.
>The "more" was in reference to the fact that we have gone through this quite
>throughly once before, however as a follower of Ken Urquhart I see that it
>still does not set well with you when someone such as myself has the
>appititude to accomplish something greater than is realized by most
>individuals, an accomplishment which has more honor by virture of the fact
>that it is laboriously obtained rather than purchased from those who peddle
>parchments. A following cannot be bought, but must be earned, and through my
>efforts to establish my clan, I have earned the respect and gratitude of my
>clanspeople, something which means far more to me than the fickle oppinions
>of onlookers, or the letters patent of foreign bureaucrats.
>
>Steven Akins of that Ilk
>sja...@sonet.net
>
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Clan MacNeil in Canada Webmaster
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote:
> I say herr Kaiser, was that your arms that I saw on the web-site of my
> friend and heraldic artist, Donald Suttie Smith of Heraldic Graphics?
> http://www.heraldicgraphics.demon.co.uk/products.htm ? Don is a fine fellow
> and did quite a nice job on my heraldic achievement, even sent our
> web-master a bit-map of the image for our Clan web-site.
>
> Steven Akins of that Ilk
> sja...@sonet.net
Not the Arms that I am having matriculated by the Canadian Heraldic
Authority. But surely arms that I have seen on everything from tee
shirts to coffee cups. As the graphic of that you speak of is of German
arms, then they would in fact be my arms should I care to bear them, but
I wanted something much more personal than something I found on a beer
stein or a tombstone. . .
--
Charles R. Kaiser
Clan MacNeil in Canada Web Services
"Vincere Vel Mori" "Buaidh No Bas" Any way you say it, it's "Conquer or
Die"
*VOTE* for Clan MacNeil in Canada at WebbieWorld! *CLICK* this Link:
http://www.webbieworld.com/ww/vote.asp?recordno=2454
"Cuimhnich Air Na Daoine o'n D'thainig thu."
- Remember the men from whom you have come.
John
> more academically certified than most of the members of this ng. All
members
> of the Clan Akins Society upon application for membership sign a pledge to
> uphold the Clan and the Chief; no one holds any gun to their head, but it
is
> done freely of their own accord.
>
endeavor! Sounds more like they were interested in their ancestry of which
you provided a avenue, but as a prerequisite to getting information you made
them sign a blood oath of allegiance! Not quit the same as having a
extended family gathering, and putting it up for vote!
I might be able to get that list you provided, and send to them copies of
your ranting on this news group. Many I would think would not be very happy
with their chief.
I am a member of several organizations and have agreed to similar pledges.
I for one was not responsible for selecting the head of the organization as
hereditary chief. That had been long ago done through right of birth. You
have been attesting that these people chose you. Now it seems that you
chose yourself, organized the society, and hoodwinked the general
membership. Much the same as your claim of being recognized by the United
States Government for being of that Ilk.
What Hogwash are you going to come up with next. I have tried to ignore
you, but you are a pathetic person who feels he must blow his own horn. I
say, invite some of those learned members of your clan to this news group,
and let them speak for their selves. Second though, Let me have that list
again, I may invite them my self.
Iain...
Sean MacUisdin
> >pathetic name dropping. One would hope they don't mind having their
> >names dragged through the mud behind you.
>
> fellow Clanspeople to be "easily gullible" as you suggest, many members of
> the Clan Akins are well-educated professional men and women who are probably
LMBJAO - Goodness, prat, you are very good at assumptions, I'll give you
that. I would believe otherwise, however, as the vast majority of this
ng has proven to be well educated and knowledgeable; and gosh darn it,
they didn't even have to make up a series of faux titles either!
All members
> of the Clan Akins Society upon application for membership sign a pledge to
> uphold the Clan and the Chief; no one holds any gun to their head, but it is
> done freely of their own accord.
LMAO - well, if they've sworn a pledge to uphold the inane wheezings of
their intellectual bantam weight of a chief, I can see why your numbers
are so small.
> >Anyway, listing them does not, by any length of the imagination, ensure
> >they support your inane prattlings. Goodness, even you should know that.
>
> I state my opinions as being my own and I certainly make no requirement that
> any of my Clan members agree with me on my personal opinions regarding
> social issues, etc.
So the oath of upholding the chief means that they uphold what, exactly?
See, piggy, you blether on the ng as a chief of Klan Akins, so when
speaking as a chief, does not your clan have to 'uphold' you?
So, which Steven am I talking to now? The Chief of Klan Akins or the
prattling git? And which one does the klan uphold? And why, by St.
Andrew's bright pink toes, are not all the slavering soldiers of the
klan inundating this ng with their undying love for their chief?
LMFAO, Steven, but you are a very amusing little man with your hollow
boasts and groundless claims!
That is a matter of personal choice. Most of my
> "prattlings" as you like to refer to them are merely replies to your
> self-righteous indignation that you cannot force me to believe as you wish.
LOL - och, ma puir wee muffin o' a man! Speaking of self righteous
indignation! hahahahahahaha. My ironyometer just peaked!
> I would suggest that you have done far more prattling on this ng than myself
> or anyone else.
You may suggest all you wish, Steven, but like the vast majority of your
dribbling, it's deposited in the circular file of choice.
Sean MacUisdin
>
> >Subject: Re: Dalrymple Clan
> >From: Sean MacUisdin sean.ma...@home.com
> >Date: 2/12/00 8:30 AM Mountain Standard Time
>
> >Can't say it rings any bells, unless...... naw. He's a real honest tae
> >guidness, gosh golly, who hoo, kick ass, big cheese, head honcho
> >extraordinaire, so it couldnae be him!
>
> Niver! He's a genuine Scottish chief, an nae chief wad hae the gall tae mak up
> a phony story!
be gaein' aboot this news group like a haunless ham fisted glaikit lump
while bletherin' like the south end o' a north boond goat!
Nae, cidnae be him! He's a right new penny an' fresh off the boat is ur
great and bonnie chief!
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000213004050...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>I would again note that had you started an Akins family organization; House
of
>Akins, as I outlined before, I would applaud your efforts.
That is basically what I have done, though I have chosen to use the word
"Clan" because of its particular ethnic connotations and because that is
what we are under the accepted definition of the term, i.e. "a group of
related families sharing common descent". You seem to be under the
impression that Clans only existed within a certain area, or that their
existence depended upon recognition from a created authority, neither of
this misconceptions are true. Clans existed in the lowlands of Scotland as
well as the highlands. Ever since their has been an interest in the subject
the lowland clans of Chisholm, Douglas, Drummond, Graham, Gordon, Grant,
Hamilton and the like have always been included alongside such highland
clans as MacIntyre, Mackintosh, MacGillivray, MacPherson, etc. Today many
more Clans have been added to the list, including a number that are seldom
heard of, such as Arbuthnott, Borthwick, Ruthven and Scrymgeour. Those who
seek to confine the status of "clan" to those families who evolved only in
the Scottish highlands would do away with a great many of the clans
recognized as such today who are of Norman English origins (Bruce, Chisholm,
Fraser, Grant, etc.). But the clans themselves did not even originate in
Scotland, but were brought there by the Scots when they came from Ireland.
Certainly their existence did not depend upon the Queen's licensing agent,
as the office of Lord Lyon was not even created until after the Norman
Conquest and was not even functioning until it was reorganized under the
reign of King Charles II in 1674. Lyon's office is just like any other
licensing agency whereby citizens residing under its jurisdiction are
required to pay a fee for something that they possess and use. The fact that
something is unlicensed does not mean that it doesn't exist, it is merely
unregulated. If I decided not to pay for the license plate on my car, my car
would not cease to exist; yes, I could be prosecuted by the court if I drove
it in that manner in an area which was under their jurisdiction, but outside
of their jurisdiction, I am perfectly safe to operate it without their
bloody license.. The same holds true in regard to Lyon Court.
You make much about the fact that I disregard and place no importance
in the opinions of those outside of my clan and this is precisely because I
did not organize the Clan Akins for these people, but for my clansfolk. I
sought to provide them with the same cultural trappings that are enjoyed by
others with whom we share a common ethnic heritage. Yes, the arms that I
bear were borne on the gravestone of someone else to whom I was related but
not descended - he had no descendants. My fourth great grandfather who was
his older brother was appointed by the Court of Mecklenburg Co., N.C. in the
September Session of 1785 to act as his administrator as he had died without
a will or heirs, and it was my ancestor who had the monument placed on his
brothers grave which included a depiction of the arms that I now bear and
have registered in my name in the country of which I am a citizen. If our
government had had a heraldic authority, then I would have gone that route,
but we do not. I could easily go to the Spanish King of Arms and pay $500
dollars to have him grant me my arms and then go to Lord Lyon and pay him
$1200 to record them as a foreign grant of arms, however, I see no reason to
do that. What I have done is accepted by my clanspeople, and that is all
that matters to me; no one else has provided them with a clan organization,
a tartan, a clan crest, or indeed anything which they may have as a tangible
manifestation of their heritage. I have provided them with that, and they in
turn are satisfied to willingly submit to and support my benovelent
dictatorship as the Chief of Clan Akins.
Robert McKay
>Nae, cidnae be him! He's a right new penny an' fresh off the boat is ur
>great and bonnie chief!
Aye, a fine man he is - th verra floor o rectitude.
John
<garbage Sniped>
> the lowland clans of Chisholm, Douglas, Drummond, Graham, Gordon, Grant,
> Hamilton and the like have always been included alongside such highland
> clans as MacIntyre, Mackintosh, MacGillivray, MacPherson, etc.
Stever! You are not doing so well with this one. Clan Grant is a Highland
Clan... Of which I am a hereditary member, along with Cousin US Grant.
<More Garbage sniped>
Iain....
Cook SLC
>impression that Clans only existed within a certain area, or that their
>existence depended upon recognition from a created authority, neither of
>this misconceptions are true.
No, I'm not, as I made clear in my post. However, it is correct that the
Standing Council of Chiefs has never recognized a Clan Akins. The definition
you use is not the one commonly used in Scottish Custom. You can call
something a Brussel sprout. That doesn' t mean it is.
> You make much about the fact that I disregard and place no importance
>in the opinions of those outside of my clan.
No, I didn't make any such comment. I did say, in response to you, "You are
correct that I am, in a sense, an onlooker. Certainly that is true regarding
internal workings of your organization. However, I am also part of the
Scottish community. You claim a title and status in that community. You
should expect comments from such as myself based on your claims."
>I could easily go to the Spanish King of Arms and pay $500
>dollars to have him grant me my arms and then go to Lord Lyon and pay him
>$1200 to record them as a foreign grant of arms, however, I see no reason to
>do that.
And I have repeatedly said that I saw no need for you to do that, and indicated
you should develop your own arms.
>no one else has provided them with a clan organization,
>a tartan, a clan crest, or indeed anything which they may have as a tangible
>manifestation of their heritage.
And had you done so w/o the "C" word, I would have applauded your efforts.
You did not address your comment regarding my affiliation with Urquhart and why
that mattered or whether you are acquainted with him, as you seemed to imply.
You did not address your implication that I was "fickle."
You did not specify what you meant by your comment regarding "purchased
parchment."
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Cook SLC
>dictatorship as the Chief of Clan Akins.
Ah, but you claim you were voted in. You could therefore be voted out. That
wouldn't be a dictatorship.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Tiss
SilntThnkr wrote:
Ohhhhhhh!! No more pictures? I've only got half of my room papered with them so
far. What am I suppose to do with the rest? I was waiting for the kilted picture
to fill up the rest.
Why don't you write to her and see if she is shy. ROTFLOL !!!! She is a
typical Scottish lass and that isn't shy.
Ye're wright about Iain. I guess I assumed that all GUNNS were Vikings. LOL
Tiss
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
John wrote in message ...
Sorry John, you can only be a "member" of a single Clan, the one whose
name you bear. You may be a descendant of the Clan Grant, you may even be a
"member" of the Clan Grant Society, but unless your name is Grant or one of
their related "sept"names, that does not make you a member of the Clan
itself. I belong to the Clan Henderson and Clan Watson Societies and I could
join many more, such as Forbes, Hamilton, MacAlister, Gunn, etc., but I do
not claim to be anything other than a descendant of those Clans, as I cannot
be a Clan member for I do not bear the Clan name or the name of one of their
"septs" (i.e. my McCorkles were a part of Clann Gunn and my Alexanders
belonged to Clan MacAlister, a part of Clan Donald).
Now, as for the Clan Grant being Highland, it may be true that they
eventually settled there, but they were not always in the highlands, the
started off in France, then came to England with William the Conqueror,
where a member of the family or "clan" if you will was Archbishop of
Canterbury in 1229. The appear in Scotland shortly thereafter, having
acquired the lands of Stratherrick through marriage to Mary Bisset, a son of
whom, Sir Lawrence le Grand, became sheriff of Inverness. So what you have
is a Norman family that moved to Scotland and settled there, like the
Bruces, the Hamiltons, the Hays, the Chisholms, the Grahams, the Lindsays,
the Maxwells, etc. Some of whom settled in the highlands, some did not, but
all are generally accepted as Clans, regardless of their location.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000213103216...@ng-ff1.aol.com>...
I was voted to proceed with the process of organizing the Akinses into a
Clan and as the senior representative of our direct line declined to serve
in the capacity as the head of the organization, he nominated me to do so as
I was considered to be the person most qualified for the position. This
determination took place prior to the actual organization of the Clan
itself, amongst a gathering of descendants of our Clan, and the actual
organization of the Clan Akins has occurred since those determinations were
made. Not all of those who are members of the Clan Akins Society
necessarily casted a vote, but rather complied with the predetermined order
of things upon applying for membership, thus while I was nominated and
"elected" to go about the business of organizing the Akinses into a Clan,
once the Clan was organized the position of Chiefship was already
predetermined, and no one has had any complaints with the results.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000213103015...@ng-ff1.aol.com>...
>No, I'm not, as I made clear in my post. However, it is correct that the
>Standing Council of Chiefs has never recognized a Clan Akins. The
definition
>you use is not the one commonly used in Scottish Custom. You can call
>something a Brussel sprout. That doesn' t mean it is.
Yes, and the Standing Council can call a cabbage a turnip if they wish, but
that also does not necessarily make it so either.
>I have repeatedly said that I saw no need for you to do that, and indicated
>you should develop your own arms.
There is no need for me to develop "new" arms when authentic historical arms
which actually pertain to my family already exist.
>You did not address your comment regarding my affiliation with Urquhart and
why
>that mattered or whether you are acquainted with him, as you seemed to
imply.
I am not well acquainted with Ken Urquhart by any means, though I have had
occassion to speak with him casually. He used to be a regular attendee at
our Highland Games here in Montgomery several years ago. It has been a while
since I've seen him anywhere. He always seemed to be a very quiet fellow,
quite thin, always wore a plain navy blue jacket with his kilt. I understand
he is something of a historian. I mentioned that you were a "follower" of
his, as you had said something in regard to being associated with the
Urquhart Clan in annother post. My implication was that followers of one
particular leader have an inordinate capacity to cast aspersions on the
leaders of others.
>You did not address your implication that I was "fickle."
I did not mean to imply that you personally were fickle, but that onlooker
generally tend to be so, see above statement for clarification.
>You did not specify what you meant by your comment regarding "purchased
>parchment."
All grants of arms and matriculations of arms are purchased parchments. They
amount to nothing more than a nicely decorated license, which cost a
substantial amount of money that is equivalent to a tax paid to the
government of which the issuer is a representative. The offices which act as
the licensing agents were formed for the purpose of collecting money for the
government which gives them their authority to collect money from its
citizens. i.e. "purchased parchments".
SilntThnkr
>> LOL Ok Tiss, that is the last picture I send you of me with my shirt off. :
>)
>> I will never live that down. Besides I believe Iain is more the barbarian
>> size, he is like 6'3" isn't he? And I am also afraid that the only swords
>I
>> own are the one I teach the Katana. But I will play the Barbarian
>Highlander
>> if your daughter plays the shy Scottish lass (as if there IS such a thing)
>> LOL. Hey Tiss, we can write our OWN chapter. ROFLMAO
>>
>> -David of the Clan Gunn
>
>
>
>
>Ohhhhhhh!! No more pictures? I've only got half of my room papered with
>them so
>far. What am I suppose to do with the rest? I was waiting for the kilted
>picture
>to fill up the rest.
>
>Why don't you write to her and see if she is shy. ROTFLOL !!!! She is a
>typical Scottish lass and that isn't shy.
>
>Ye're wright about Iain. I guess I assumed that all GUNNS were Vikings. LOL
>
>Tiss
Not to worry my friend, I promised that when I get my kilt I would send you a
picture of me in it. After all, you need to change the picture on the dart
board. Yes, I assumed your daughter was not shy at all. But if I get to know
her then I will just be stuck here 600 miles away from her with a broken heart.
That is why I have faithfully resisted writing to Lena's daughter (another
beautiful lass) because then I would be 12,000 miles away with a broken heart
(ok, that reason and the fact that both mothers we smart enought to NOT send me
thier e-mail address LOL) Good cheer to all on this Sabbath day.
Cook SLC
>particular leader have an inordinate capacity to cast aspersions on the
>leaders of others.
That is not my experience when the leaders are not in competition. Neither my
wife nor I have any Akins family names. Indeed, I have generally found a
great deal of cooperation between the Scottish Chiefs and clans. (cf.
MacTavish and Campbell). In fact, Castle Craig was given to the Urquhart's
father by Major Shaw. I am currently assisting a Sinclair in documenting his
family history to obtain a COA from the Lyon.
The fact that I have chosen Urquhart over other clans from which I am
descended, such as Shaw, Crawford/Lindsay, Bell, in no way demeans those other
individuals. Frankly, it was because of my personal regard for the Urquhart
and what he has done for his Clan that our family made that choice. Indeed, I
would suspect you would find a great deal in common with him.
Re: Kenneth Urquhart being a quiet individual: As you note, he is an
historian (taught at Tulane, former curator of the Confederate Museum in New
Orleans, IIRC). Get him started on a subject of his interest, and he moves
into the lecturer mode without hesitancy, and there are no school bells to stop
him <G> (this is said with fondness, as our wives once spent a day shopping
while he and I talked on matters that would have bored most people, and it
appears that I am not immune from the same affliction, as these posts might
indicate).
Re: activities. I think he mentioned he had not recently attended the
Montgomery Games. While I don't keep his schedule, in 1999 he was in SLC
conducting genealogical research on the clan (and for others of Urquhart name,
regardless of descent); attended the clan gathering in Scotland in May-June;and
the Stone Mountain Games, where CU was the honored clan. He has also been very
busy arranging the purchase of lands surrounding Castle Craig as a prelude to
its restoration. (Off topic, but somewhat in response).
>All grants of arms and matriculations of arms are purchased parchments. They
>amount to nothing more than a nicely decorated license, which cost a
>substantial amount of money that is equivalent to a tax paid to the
>government of which the issuer is a representative. The offices which act as
>the licensing agents were formed for the purpose of collecting money for the
>government which gives them their authority to collect money from its
>citizens. i.e. "purchased parchments".
>
I don't disagree w/ you. You will note again that I have never said that
Americans should go to any foreign power for arms (except for the instance
where they would be using them in that other jurisdiction).
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000213120443...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
>>My implication was that followers of one
>>particular leader have an inordinate capacity to cast aspersions on the
>>leaders of others.
>
>That is not my experience when the leaders are not in competition. Neither
my
>wife nor I have any Akins family names. Indeed, I have generally found a
>great deal of cooperation between the Scottish Chiefs and clans. (cf.
>MacTavish and Campbell). In fact, Castle Craig was given to the
Urquhart's
>father by Major Shaw. I am currently assisting a Sinclair in documenting
his
>family history to obtain a COA from the Lyon.
I am not in competition with anyone. Perhaps I should have worded it
differently. There are a great many followers, but there are only a few
leaders. Generally this is due to complacency on the part of the followers
who are content to let someone else lead them. However, as in my case, I
have achieved a following by a different means than most others, by hard
work and ingenuity rather than by having it handed to me on a silver platter
because I happened to be born to the right parents at the right time.
Unfortunately there is an appalling lack of respect for hard work and
personal innitiative, while there is a certain awe for individuals who
acquire status through no effort of their own, but merely by the luck of the
draw. The things which I have achieved, I have done so through my personal
efforts, whereas others have inherited the trappings that I have had to come
by through the sweat of my brow, so to speak. For that reason, I feel that
there is a certain pettyness, sour grapes if you will, among those who would
cast aspersions on me for accomplishing what I have achieved because I have
done so through my own initiative rather than by order of birth. If order of
birth determined the fitness of leaders, then we should be very foolish to
follow democracy wereby the man who proves himself most capable is chosen
from above all others. I have proven myself the most capable by virtue of
the fact that I have accomplised the things that I have for my Clan, whereas
no one before me has made any effort to do so, thereby forfeiting their
claim to my position.
Stephen Hamilton
> <garbage Sniped>
>
> > the lowland clans of Chisholm, Douglas, Drummond, Graham, Gordon, Grant,
> > Hamilton and the like have always been included alongside such highland
> > clans as MacIntyre, Mackintosh, MacGillivray, MacPherson, etc.
>
> Stever! You are not doing so well with this one. Clan Grant is a Highland
> Clan... Of which I am a hereditary member, along with Cousin US Grant.
>
> <More Garbage sniped>
>
> Iain....
And Hamilton is more properly called a Family, without septs. Not a clan, nor
was it organised as one. Duke Angus is the family head.
And did you say there are 2000 members of your "clan"? An astounding feat, to
be sure. You have a brilliant future in multi-level marketing, why are you
dinking around with this Scottish stuff? I am currntly a bit low on my bridge
inventory, but if you'd please publish the list I have many more on back
order...
Stephen Hamilton
(not a clansman, a family member regardless of how many websites appropriate
the highland term)
Cook SLC
>personal innitiative, while there is a certain awe for individuals who
>acquire status through no effort of their own, but merely by the luck of the
>draw.
I agree. However, I feel confident that the success I have in my life was (1)
being in the right place at the right time, at time's because of God's impetus
and (2) by my own hard work. I assure you, I did not achieve my positions,
such as they are, by birth or inherited wealth (or good looks).
If you are referring to Kenneth Urquhart, as I noted in my previous post, my
regard for him is not based on the inherited the title of chief, but his
efforts on behalf of his clan and a personal liking for him and the interests
we hold in common.
Also as I noted before, I do not doubt that you have engaged in hard work.
It's the process with which many of us have a concern.
Just out of curiosity, what if someone were to set up a rival Clan Akins or
Akins Society, how would you deal with that? (and such happenings have
occurred).
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
The Glenallan
The Glenallan. Oh dear.. ;-)
-------------------
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
news:Hplp4.1490$Cx.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> Cook SLC wrote in message
<20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>
> <Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>
> >I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House of
> >Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted by
a
> >foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
> stop
> >this chief nonsense.
>
> It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in
no
> way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
> Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt. Cook.
>
> Steven Akins of that Ilk
> High Chief of the Name and Arms of Akins
> sja...@sonet.net
>
>
Lachie Macquarie
of that Ilk <sja...@sonet.net> writes
>
>Sean MacUisdin wrote in message <38A5F096...@home.com>...
>>Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote:
>>>
>>> Cook SLC wrote in message
><20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>>>
>>> <Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>>>
>>> >I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House
>of
>>> >Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted
>by a
>>> >foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
>>> stop
>>> >this chief nonsense.
>>>
>>> It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in
>no
>>> way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
>>> Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt.
>Cook.
>>
>
>No idea of what you are talking about, Sean. If you are suggesting that I
>have no basis to believe that I am supported in my position as Chief of the
>Clan Akins, I would invite you to peruse the following which is a partial
>listing of entries for our 2000 Clan Akins membership directory which is
>being prepared for release to our members within the next few weeks upon its
>completion and printing. Here is a list of those who have been covered so
>far by our Clan Secretary:
>
>
>Year 2000 Clan Akins Membership Directory
>
>(Aiken - Reeder)
>
>
>Name: David R. Aiken
>
>Born: 20 March, 1947
>
>Profession: Educator
>
>Affiliations: Clan Akins Society, Freemason
>
>Ancestry: Descendant of Eleanor Hickman Aiken (1822-1854)
>
>Family: Wife: Lana (Ragsdale) Aiken; children: Elisabeth C. Aiken, Jessica
>G. Aiken.
>
Faicing big SNP.
Stephen oh high chief of the Aikens clan, stop being such a knobber with the
big posts, if you want to prove your point to whoever send it direct, if I say
please oh mighty chief.
Thank you in anticipation.
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhain I wish.
Tiss
>
> we say in America. What is more romantic then the
> >giant,
> >kilt wearing, barechested, barbarian like David .........whoop,
> >cough......LOL.....ohhhh I can't stand any more.......giggle...giggle
> >
> >Tiss
>
> LOL Ok Tiss, that is the last picture I send you of me with my shirt off. : )
> I will never live that down. Besides I believe Iain is more the barbarian
> size, he is like 6'3" isn't he? And I am also afraid that the only swords I
> own are the one I teach the Katana. But I will play the Barbarian Highlander
> if your daughter plays the shy Scottish lass (as if there IS such a thing)
> LOL. Hey Tiss, we can write our OWN chapter. ROFLMAO
>
> -David of the Clan Gunn
I sent this to my daughter and here is what she said.
SHY??!!??!!??!!! Ok, David certainly has the WRONG idea about me!!! Ha! Ha!
Even if "their is such a thing", I don't
believe I could ever even PLAY the roll without laughing hysterically!!
And what HAVE you said about me, that David jokes about me being his "lass?"
See what I told you. LOL
Tiss
Lachie Macquarie
desdale.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>I am in danger of falling out of my cot again.!!
>
>The Glenallan. Oh dear.. ;-)
>-------------------
>
>
>Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
>news:Hplp4.1490$Cx.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>>
><20000212115607...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>>
>> <Much ado about nothing snipped for brevity>
>>
>> >I would again suggest Mr. Akins form an Akins Family Association/House of
>> >Akins, develop legitimate arms (note I did not suggest they be granted by
>a
>> >foreign power), have himself elected convenor/president/whathaveyou, and
>> stop
>> >this chief nonsense.
>>
>> It is quite a singular circumstance being admonished by those who are in
>no
>> way a part of my Clan, and applauded by all those who are my Clanspeople.
>> Who should I listen too, I wonder? More sour grapes I take it, Capt. Cook.
>>
Glenallan get yourself a dummy tit and relax whilst dipping the object in you
favourite brand of whisky, Claymore per chance?
Anyway Glenallan I am out of the cot half way to the lavvie, a couple more
pulls and the porcelain god will have its sacrifice.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Stephen Hamilton wrote in message <38A71D98...@vol.com>...
>And did you say there are 2000 members of your "clan"? An astounding feat,
to
>be sure. You have a brilliant future in multi-level marketing, why are you
>dinking around with this Scottish stuff? I am currntly a bit low on my
bridge
>inventory, but if you'd please publish the list I have many more on back
>order...
Sorry Stephen, while there are some 23,586 Akins individuals in the U.S.
along with an additional 12,140 Akin and 17,924 Aikens, and an untold number
of less common spellings such as Aikin, Aikins, Aikens, Eakins, Eakin,
Ekins, etc. The Clan Akins Society currently has only some 110 active
member-families who have joined our organization since it's debut in 1997.
We have enough to keep us busy trying to supply interested members with our
quarterly newsletter and a few crest-badges, the occassional tartan order
and so forth. I'll leave the bridge business to H.M.'s engineers, I hear the
new Skye bridge at Kyle Akin takes in a 5 pound toll from each motorist.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Cook SLC wrote in message <20000213135236...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
>Just out of curiosity, what if someone were to set up a rival Clan Akins or
>Akins Society, how would you deal with that? (and such happenings have
>occurred).
>Glen Cook
>Coo...@aol.com
Well, to be quite honest that is something that would have to be dealt
with if it did ever occur and I really haven't a guess as to what my
reaction would be, though I rather doubt that anyone would want to put
themselve to the trouble that I have gone to, certainly no one has in the
past and if they had, I would have never taken up the reigns. As it turned
out the reason that I did take the innitiative in organizing my clan is
because I found it an appalling situation that it had been allowed to go on
unorganized for so long.
By the way, a very good friend of mine, Jean Dillon is the
granddaughter of William Cook, a native of Loanhead, Ayrshire, Scotland, who
came to America in 1887 and ended up in the little town of Nauvoo, here in
Walker Co., Alabama, as an operator of coal-mines. Jean (who was named for
her grandmother) still keep up the home he built here in 1900, a two story
Victorian structure, and opens it to the public for special occassions. She
has in the past had the Montgomery pipe band and other Scottish dancers and
singers perform as a part of the town's Christmas parade. If you ever find
yourself in the northern half of Alabama, you should pay her a visit, as a
fellow Scottish Cook.
John
Steven spuewed in message:
<garbage Sniped>
> Sorry John, you can only be a "member" of a single Clan, the one whose
> name you bear. You may be a descendant of the Clan Grant, you may
> even be a "member" of the Clan Grant Society, but unless your name is
> Grant or one of their related "sept"names, that does not make you a member
> of the Clan
Steve you sure have a twisted sort of rules for others don't you. If I
changed my name to Grant, that would make it OK by your book would it not?
I have a name that is associated with all the Highland Clans that I am
associated with. My name officially became a sept when I chose allegiance
to said clan. Is my name on the recognized list of septs published by the
Highland Clans? No it is not, not any more than your name and the variant
spellings are recognized.
> itself. I belong to the Clan Henderson and Clan Watson Societies and I
could
> join many more, such as Forbes, Hamilton, MacAlister, Gunn, etc., but I do
> not claim to be anything other than a descendant of those Clans, as I
cannot
> be a Clan member for I do not bear the Clan name or the name of one of
their
> "septs" (i.e. my McCorkles were a part of Clann Gunn and my Alexanders
> belonged to Clan MacAlister, a part of Clan Donald).
> Now, as for the Clan Grant being Highland, it may be true that they
> eventually settled there, but they were not always in the highlands, the
> started off in France, then came to England with William the Conqueror,
> where a member of the family or "clan" if you will was Archbishop of
> Canterbury in 1229. The appear in Scotland shortly thereafter, having
> acquired the lands of Stratherrick through marriage to Mary Bisset, a son
of
> whom, Sir Lawrence le Grand, became sheriff of Inverness. So what you have
> is a Norman family that moved to Scotland and settled there, like the
> Bruces, the Hamiltons, the Hays, the Chisholms, the Grahams, the Lindsays,
> the Maxwells, etc. Some of whom settled in the highlands, some did not,
but
> all are generally accepted as Clans, regardless of their location.
>
When you speak of generalities, are you speaking from a reference, or is
this just more dribble that you are spewing? The Akin(s) name as I pointed
out several months ago first originated in Turkey. Let us not forget little
Abdul Mohamid Akin (please forgive the spelling). I believe that you will
also discover that before the invasion of William, there were no second
names used in Scotland. (you might have even said that in a previous
post!) Grant was a name that was taken as a second name when it became
practice to do so in Scotland.
By the way, you leave off the list the name Saint Clair, Sinclair! They
were part of the group that came. Incidentally, Many of our clans claims a
Norse Origin, However we also feel that having name recognized in the
Highlands for some 900 + years also qualifies us as a Highland Clan.
Iain...
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
John wrote in message ...
>Steve you sure have a twisted sort of rules for others don't you. If I
>changed my name to Grant, that would make it OK by your book would it not?
>I have a name that is associated with all the Highland Clans that I am
>associated with. My name officially became a sept when I chose allegiance
>to said clan. Is my name on the recognized list of septs published by the
>Highland Clans? No it is not, not any more than your name and the variant
>spellings are recognized.
Those are not my rules, John, I was merely passing along some information
that I have read in several works on the subject of the Scottish Clans.
Allow me to quote from these sources for your reference:
"Clan membership rests upon name and it follows that if no clan or sept
surname is borne, there can be no claim to the tartan of any clan. Those who
bear surnames unconnected to a clan should, if they desire to follow the
correct course, wear either a "District" tartan or the "Jacobite" or
"Caledonia" tartans."
- Margaret O. MacDougall, F.S.A. Scot. editor of "The Clan's and Tartans of
Scotland" by Robert Bain.
"It is a genealogical first principal that a person can only belong to one
family. People bearing double-barrelled surnames technically belong to no
family. It is an odd fact that the double or triple surname should have been
regarded as an indication of social superiority, for it is a sign of
genealogical degeneracy and is looked on askance in the courts of chivalry,
where it sometimes causes a great deal of trouble.....The point of all this
is that one does not normally belong to the mother's family. It is, of
course, possible. Many people are unaware that the husband can, if he
wishes, enter his wife's family and change his name to hers on marriage,
instead of the commoner reversed proceeding. When an heiress marries, this
often occurs - with no loss of manliness on the man's part, be it added.
What happens in effect when a clanswoman marries and changes her name to her
husband's, is that she leaves the clan and enters her husband's family (or
clan if he belongs to one). Their children are born into the husband's
family. These children therefore have no "rights" to the mother's tartan
unless they re-enter her clan by changing their name."
- Charles MacKinnon of Dunakin, F.S.A. Scot, in his book "Tartans and
Highland Dress"
"Those not bearing a clan surname or that of any clan sept, should wear
a "District" tartan if any suitable one exists, or else "Jacobite" or
"Caledonia" tartan, admissible even when the wearer belongs to no clan."
- Scottish Clans & Tartans
As you can see it is the opinions of such experts on the subject that
clan membership is determined by the surname which one bears and that if the
surname one bears is not associated with any clan, then no claim can be made
for membership within that clan. This is not my opinion, but the opinion of
the above cited authors who are Fellows of the Society of Antiquities of
Scotland, and so are thought to possess greater than average knowledge on
the subject.
>When you speak of generalities, are you speaking from a reference, or is
>this just more dribble that you are spewing?
As I have already stated, I generally do not offer as information something
which cannot be confirmed by checking with the sources which I gained the
information from in the first place. Occassionally my memory may not be
precise, but it is seldom very far off the mark.
> The Akin(s) name as I pointed
>out several months ago first originated in Turkey.
The name Akins did not originate in Turkey. It may occur in Turkey, but the
Turkish name Akin is in no way connected to the Scottish name, which is
spelled variously as Ackin, Aicken, Aiken, Aikin, Akin, Akins, Eakins, etc.
and is derrived either from the Scottish territorial name Akin (Acain in
Gaelic), as in Kyle Akin, Dun Akin, etc., or from the Gaelic personal name
Eachin. The fact that the name also occurs in the Turkish language is merely
coincidental. There is a place in England called Sutton Hoo, Hoo is a name
which also occurs in China, would you suggest that the famous Sutton Hoo
burial site contained the remains of an ancient Chinese warrior who came to
England with the Anglo-Saxons?
I believe that you will
>also discover that before the invasion of William, there were no second
>names used in Scotland. (you might have even said that in a previous
>post!)
I did.
Grant was a name that was taken as a second name when it became
>practice to do so in Scotland.
Yes that is of course correct.
>By the way, you leave off the list the name Saint Clair, Sinclair!
I couldn't remember if the Sinclair were Normans or Vikings, of if they were
merely dinosaurs.
>They
>were part of the group that came. Incidentally, Many of our clans claims a
>Norse Origin, However we also feel that having name recognized in the
>Highlands for some 900 + years also qualifies us as a Highland Clan.
Everything is relative. My surname can be found in Scottish records dating
back to 1405, they were located as far north as Aberdeen, and as far south
as Ayrshire, my particular branch was from Lanarkshire.
Clan MacNeil in Canada Webmaster
Cook SLC wrote:
<snip>
> Just out of curiosity, what if someone were to set up a rival Clan Akins or
> Akins Society, how would you deal with that? (and such happenings have
> occurred).
Why Glen, he has *copyrighted* his arms, so who would dare to usurp
them? Heck, he didn't even go through the trouble of registering his
arms with the American College of Heraldry, so all one would have to do
to make his "copyright" null and void would be to take a picture of the
tombstone he took it from to court. The tombstone is evidence enough of
"prior art", and its age puts the design squarely in the public domain.
--
Charles R. Kaiser
Clan MacNeil in Canada Web Services
"Vincere Vel Mori" "Buaidh No Bas" Any way you say it, it's "Conquer or
Die"
*VOTE* for Clan MacNeil in Canada at WebbieWorld! *CLICK* this Link:
http://www.webbieworld.com/ww/vote.asp?recordno=2454
"Cuimhnich Air Na Daoine o'n D'thainig thu."
- Remember the men from whom you have come.
Todd Campbell
http://www.ccsna.org/jsep31.htm
John wrote:
> Steven spuewed in message:
>
> <garbage Sniped>
>
> > Sorry John, you can only be a "member" of a single Clan, the one whose
> > name you bear. You may be a descendant of the Clan Grant, you may
> > even be a "member" of the Clan Grant Society, but unless your name is
> > Grant or one of their related "sept"names, that does not make you a member
> > of the Clan
>
> Steve you sure have a twisted sort of rules for others don't you. If I
> changed my name to Grant, that would make it OK by your book would it not?
> I have a name that is associated with all the Highland Clans that I am
> associated with. My name officially became a sept when I chose allegiance
> to said clan. Is my name on the recognized list of septs published by the
> Highland Clans? No it is not, not any more than your name and the variant
> spellings are recognized.
>
> > itself. I belong to the Clan Henderson and Clan Watson Societies and I
> could
> > join many more, such as Forbes, Hamilton, MacAlister, Gunn, etc., but I do
> > not claim to be anything other than a descendant of those Clans, as I
> cannot
> > be a Clan member for I do not bear the Clan name or the name of one of
> their
> > "septs" (i.e. my McCorkles were a part of Clann Gunn and my Alexanders
> > belonged to Clan MacAlister, a part of Clan Donald).
> > Now, as for the Clan Grant being Highland, it may be true that they
> > eventually settled there, but they were not always in the highlands, the
> > started off in France, then came to England with William the Conqueror,
> > where a member of the family or "clan" if you will was Archbishop of
> > Canterbury in 1229. The appear in Scotland shortly thereafter, having
> > acquired the lands of Stratherrick through marriage to Mary Bisset, a son
> of
> > whom, Sir Lawrence le Grand, became sheriff of Inverness. So what you have
> > is a Norman family that moved to Scotland and settled there, like the
> > Bruces, the Hamiltons, the Hays, the Chisholms, the Grahams, the Lindsays,
> > the Maxwells, etc. Some of whom settled in the highlands, some did not,
> but
> > all are generally accepted as Clans, regardless of their location.
> >
>
> When you speak of generalities, are you speaking from a reference, or is
> this just more dribble that you are spewing? The Akin(s) name as I pointed
> out several months ago first originated in Turkey. Let us not forget little
> Abdul Mohamid Akin (please forgive the spelling). I believe that you will
> also discover that before the invasion of William, there were no second
> names used in Scotland. (you might have even said that in a previous
> post!) Grant was a name that was taken as a second name when it became
> practice to do so in Scotland.
>
> By the way, you leave off the list the name Saint Clair, Sinclair! They
> were part of the group that came. Incidentally, Many of our clans claims a
> Norse Origin, However we also feel that having name recognized in the
> Highlands for some 900 + years also qualifies us as a Highland Clan.
>
> Iain...
Mhic-Ghille-Mhuire
>
> I know how they feel. It wasn't that long ago that I didn't know anything about
> Scotland. Thankfully I joined a BB who were very helpful in educating me.
>
Dillard Gilmore (Mhic-Ghille-Mhuire)
Todd Campbell
You are only recognized as a society unfortunately. How can you possibly
apply for Clan or Sept status when your surname is never mentioned in
Scottish history. You can pay off the government if you want, but the real
Clans will not recognize you. I would say the name Aikins can be a society
in the USA, the organizer would be a president of the Aikins society but not
a Chief since this is not a clan or sept. Mr. Aikins should not be referred to
as
"Chief" of the Clan Aikins because in Scotland the Clan Aikins does not exist.
Steven Aikins may be recognized as the president of the Aikins society if he
has followed the rules in the US. Steven is not and can never be a "Chief " of
a Clan, for obvious reasons.
Todd
John wrote:
> Steven wrote
> <Snip>
> > Those are not my rules, John, I was merely passing along some information
> > that I have read in several works on the subject of the Scottish Clans.
> > Allow me to quote from these sources for your reference:
> >
> > "Clan membership rests upon name and it follows that if no clan or sept
> > surname is borne, there can be no claim to the tartan of any clan. Those
> who
> > bear surnames unconnected to a clan should, if they desire to follow the
> > correct course, wear either a "District" tartan or the "Jacobite" or
> > "Caledonia" tartans."
> >
> I think you might be mixing some information here! What you are referring
> to in these works are the ancestral rights for Clan membership, and their
> rights to wear their tartans. By this very passage, your Clan does not
> exist, nor should you wear a tartan other than the District, Jacobite, or
> Caledonia. I however could choose to change my name to that of any Clan and
> wear their tartan, claiming it as my own.
>
> > - Margaret O. MacDougall, F.S.A. Scot. editor of "The Clan's and Tartans
> of
> > Scotland" by Robert Bain.
> >
> > "It is a genealogical first principal that a person can only belong to one
> > family. People bearing double-barrelled surnames technically belong to no
> > family
> <snip>
>
> Again a quote that is not really supportive of the subject. A lot of the
> Sept names come from common occurrences in the history of the courts in
> Scotland. There are documents that establish a mans identity with a clan
> based on his allegiance to that clan. Many of the records list Surnames
> that are from other clans than the one listed. In Genealogy, the Family
> only consists of a father, his wife (wives) and his children. Each
> generation is a separate family. Using this in your argument, will also
> indicate that because you are so far removed from the original Akin's you
> could not claim anything, other than to wear their tartan, if one had
> existed.
>
> > - Charles MacKinnon of Dunakin, F.S.A. Scot, in his book "Tartans and
> > Highland Dress"
> >
> > "Those not bearing a clan surname or that of any clan sept, should
> wear
> > a "District" tartan if any suitable one exists, or else "Jacobite" or
> > "Caledonia" tartan, admissible even when the wearer belongs to no clan."
> >
> Not relevant to the membership in a Clan, however it further illustrates
> that there should be no new tartans. Only those that were recognized at the
> time of the writing of the literature. Again this gives evidence that your
> clan should not have its own tartan.
>
> > - Scottish Clans & Tartans
> >
> > As you can see it is the opinions of such experts on the subject that
> > clan membership is determined by the surname which one bears and that if
> the
> > surname one bears is not associated with any clan, then no claim can be
> made
> > for membership within that clan. This is not my opinion, but the opinion
> of
> > the above cited authors who are Fellows of the Society of Antiquities of
> > Scotland, and so are thought to possess greater than average knowledge on
> > the subject.
>
> As you may already have realized, you are correct in assuming that a person
> who bears a surname of a clan can belong, however you neglect to mention
> that not only does that surname have to be the same, it also has to be from
> a Clan recognized in Scotland. What you neglect to understand is a person
> can belong to any clan, if that clan accepts them. Many Septs of ancient
> clans were not blood related to the clan when they first became associated
> with that clan. They chose a loyalty to the clan, and thus became members.
>
> I do not chose to change my name, as I am proud of it. I am however also
> proud of the fact that I am a hereditary descendant of many of the Clans of
> Scotland, I have requested membership in the Association, and to be
> recognized as a member of the Clan. My membership has been accepted. So I
> am a member of the Highland Clan. (My name was already recognized by the US
> Federal government, as well as the British Government, so it was not
> necessary for me to make a change just for that claim)
>
> <snip>
> > > The Akin(s) name as I pointed
> > >out several months ago first originated in Turkey.
> >
> > The name Akins did not originate in Turkey. It may occur in Turkey, but
> the
> > Turkish name Akin is in no way connected to the Scottish name, which is
> > spelled variously as Ackin, Aicken, Aiken, Aikin, Akin, Akins, Eakins,
> etc.
> > and is derrived either from the Scottish territorial name Akin (Acain in
> > Gaelic), as in Kyle Akin, Dun Akin, etc., or from the Gaelic personal name
> > Eachin. The fact that the name also occurs in the Turkish language is
> merely
> > coincidental. There is a place in England called Sutton Hoo, Hoo is a name
> > which also occurs in China, would you suggest that the famous Sutton Hoo
> > burial site contained the remains of an ancient Chinese warrior who came
> to
> > England with the Anglo-Saxons?
> >
>
> I am not aware of that particular Chinese warrior, however that too is
> possible. The ancient world was no larger than the world of today. It was
> merely more time consuming to travel then. Marco Polo was not the first to
> travel the spice routes to China. Had he been, there would not have been a
> spice route. Pressor John was believed to have traveled to China in the
> days of the King Arthur. He is said to have sent home many messengers with
> word of his travels. He however disappeared some years and only the legends
> were left.
> <snip>
> >
> > Everything is relative. My surname can be found in Scottish records dating
> > back to 1405, they were located as far north as Aberdeen, and as far south
> > as Ayrshire, my particular branch was from Lanarkshire.
> >
> Your name Akins did originate in Turkey (originate meaning first appeared),
> as it was recored there long before 1405. Weather your family gene pool
> originated in Turkey or not is questionable!
>
> Iain...
Lesley Robertson
Cook SLC <coo...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20000214232744...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> >I however could choose to change my name to that of any Clan and
> >wear their tartan, claiming it as my own.
> >
>
> Glen Cook
> Coo...@aol.com
>
Or recruited by Clan Gunn!
;)
Lesley Robertson
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
John wrote in message ...
>
><Snip>
>> Those are not my rules, John, I was merely passing along some information
>> that I have read in several works on the subject of the Scottish Clans.
>> Allow me to quote from these sources for your reference:
>> "Those not bearing a clan surname or that of any clan sept, should
>wear
>> a "District" tartan if any suitable one exists, or else "Jacobite" or
>> "Caledonia" tartan, admissible even when the wearer belongs to no clan."
>>
>Not relevant to the membership in a Clan, however it further illustrates
>that there should be no new tartans. Only those that were recognized at
the
>time of the writing of the literature. Again this gives evidence that your
>clan should not have its own tartan.
As usual you are misinterpreting what you read, something which seems to be
a chronic problem for you. All Clan tartans were invented in the post-1745
period. Prior to this period there were no particular tartans that the
clansmen wore to distinguish themselves. While some Clans may have adopted
as their own tartan patterns which were known to have existed before this
period, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that such historical
tartans ever bore any given name, particularly the name of the Clan that may
have adopted them. Tartans did not begin to be named until much later, in
the 1790's and early 1800's when Wilson's of Bannockburn, a company which
wove tartan material, began to give names to the tartans that they wove
where previously they had only been numbered. It is worth mentioning that
the very first named tartans did not bear the names of highland clans at
all, but rather names of lowland origin such as as Birrell, Clark. Durham,
and Waggrell. Many more tartans were invented by the Sobieski-Stuart
brothers in the first half of the 19th century. Tartans continue to be
invented and recorded even today; among the most recently recorded setts to
be added in the last few years have been: Adams, Barnes, Beard, Birch,
Carlisle, Cooke, Dodd, Duffy, Grainger, James, Lawers, Lawlis, Lundy, Lyons,
MacCall, MacCord, MacCormick, MacDevitt, MacGrath, Mack, MacKussick,
Manderson, Nance, O'Brien, O'Conner, O'Sullivan, Perry, Rathmore, Smithers,
Strachan, Strang, Terry, Todd, Vance, Walters and Wylie, all of which were
recorded later than my own Akins Clan tartan.
>Your name Akins did originate in Turkey (originate meaning first appeared),
>as it was recored there long before 1405. Weather your family gene pool
>originated in Turkey or not is questionable!
No, my name did not originate in Turkey. My family name originated in
Scotland. I would refer you to Elsdon Smith's Dictionary of American Family
Names where you will find the following: "Akin, Akins, - variant of Aiken.
Dweller near Akin, a strait in Scotland named after King Hakon of Norway".
You may also find it in Black's Surnames of Scotland, though he confuses
Aiken with Aitken and considers them to be interchangable. The fact that the
Turks may also use a name spelled Akin does not mean that my name is of
Turkish origin, any more than the family name of General Robert E. Lee is of
Chinese origin because the Chinese as well as the English both use a surname
spelled Lee, but they are of entirely different origin. Were you to suggest
to any of the descendants of Robert E. Lee that their family name was of
Chinese origin they would laugh in your face just as I do by your
ridiculous gnat-like attempt to annoy me with your stupidity.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Todd Campbell wrote in message <38A91B99...@sympatico.ca>...
>Steve
>
>You are only recognized as a society unfortunately. How can you possibly
>apply for Clan or Sept status when your surname is never mentioned in
>Scottish history. You can pay off the government if you want, but the real
>Clans will not recognize you. I would say the name Aikins can be a society
>in the USA, the organizer would be a president of the Aikins society but
not
>a Chief since this is not a clan or sept. Mr. Aikins should not be referred
to
>as
>"Chief" of the Clan Aikins because in Scotland the Clan Aikins does not
exist.
>Steven Aikins may be recognized as the president of the Aikins society if
he
>has followed the rules in the US. Steven is not and can never be a "Chief "
of
>a Clan, for obvious reasons.
Todd, I will address your statements in two parts, as follows:
Part one: Defination of Clanship.
In Frank Adam's monumental book "The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the
Scottish Highlands" we read: "This "most aristocratic of communities,"
however, was based in name and theory upon the family, for clan, that is,
"children," is the Gaelic equivalent of "family"....The clan was a feature
of Gaelic organisation that the Scots had brought with them from Ireland,
although it may have already have existed in Scotland among the Picts....The
historical truth (as again set forth in the Ardgour evidence, see Appendix
XXX)is that the clan and family themselves were legally conceived as, and
treated as, incorporeal feudalised fiefs. The "family" or "clan" is,
however, always based on a fief, because to be an "honorable community"
which has been "received into the noblesse" of the realm, it must, in the
person of its "representer," have been granted or conferred, a "family seal
of arms," and a coat of arms is a feudalised property, the family is an
"incorporation," and all the scientific modern evidence concurs that "clan
and family mean exactly the same thing" (Appendix XXX, Dr. Lachlan Maclean
Watt).
Evidence of W. Mackay Mackenzie, LL.D. F.S.A., Secretary to the Royal
Commission on Ancient Monuments. Lyon Court, Case of MacLean of Ardgour vs.
MacLean; 5 July 1938
(P.220) (Q.) In your view, what does the word "clan" mean? (A.) It has a
general meaning of family, ordinary meaning of family, but there is a
peculiar sense in which it is used for this quasi-feudal organisation in the
Highlands, or you might say feudal organisation. (Q.) But its primary
meaning, I think, is family? (A.) Yes. (Q.)In your view, did the clans in
fact consist either of persons linked by blood or persons linked by reason
of place of dwelling in a territory? (A.) That is the defination of the Act
of Parliament. (Reference Acts 1587 & Act of 11 Sept, 1593 A.P.S., IV, p.
40) (Q.) Do you see a reference there to the pretence of blood or place of
dwelling? (A.)Yes. (Q.)Are those familiar terms? (A.) Quite familiar.
Pretence means claim....(Q.) So that in your view do you get this dual
element entering into the composition of the clan, blood-relation and place
of dwelling? (A.) Oh, yes, you have both.
Evidence of the Very Rev. Lachlan Maclean Watt, LL.D., Bard of the Clan
MacLean Association: (P. 517) (Q.) (Referred to Mackenzie's "Works," II,
574, 618: (Q.)Do you deduce that Sir G. Mackenzie considered that from a
heraldic point of view the "head of the clan" the "chief of the clan" or the
"representer of the family" all meant the same thing? (A.) I respectfully
suggest that it is a matter of "Head of a Family" and "Head of a Clan." He
was a Highlander and he knew that clan means a family. Clan and family mean
exactly the same thing."
Part Two: Historical origins of the Clan Akins
In his book "The Surnames of Scotland - Their Origin, Meaning, and History"
George F. Black, Ph.D., tells us: "The use of fixed surnames or descriptive
names appears to have commenced in France about the year 1000, and such
names were introduced into Scotland through the Normans a little over one
hundred years later, though the custom of using them was by no means common
for many years afterward....at a general council held at Forfar in 1061
during the reign of Malcolm Ceannmor (1057-1093) the latter directed his
chief subjects, after the custom of other nations, to adopt surnames from
their territorial possessions... Surnames originating in this way are known
as territorial...Towns and villages and hamlets also gave distinctive
appellation to several persons wholly unconnected by blood - to any one, in
short, who left one of the towns or villages to reside elsewhere...Some of
our local names have never travelled beyond the bounds of the place or
places which gave them origin...Others again have spread over two or three
adjoining parishes, and still others have wandered over the entire
country...Many local surnames have been derived from places, the names of
not a few of which have not survived...Many of these places were too small
to be recorded on the map or have been altered....John of Akyne, a Scottish
merchant, petitioned for the return of his ship and goods illegally seized
in England in 1405...William Ackin was a witness in Brechin in 1476...George
Aczin appears in Lanark in 1498...John Eckin was a tenant under the bishop
of Aberdeen, 1511...John Ackyne was bailie of Stirling in 1520...Robert
Aykkyne was admitted burgess of Aberdeen in 1539...Forms of these names are
common in the Commissariot Record of Stirling, in the Edinburgh Marriage
Record, and in the Records of the Sheriff Court of Aberdeenshire...and in
Orkney it is believed to have replaced the Old Norse name Haakon and its
derivative Hakonson."
In his "Dictionary of American Family Names", Elsdon C. Smith lists the
names Akins and Akin as "Variants of Aiken...dweller near Akin, a strait in
Scotland named after King Hakon of Norway" Likewise in their "Encyclopedia
of American Family Names" H. Amanda Robb and Andrew Chesler arrive at the
same conclusion stating of the names Akins and Akin "the name was given to
those who were from the area near Akin, a strait in Scotland named for King
Hakon of Norway". According to William and Mary Durning, authors of "The
Scotch-Irish" the names Aiken, Akins, and Eakin came to Ireland from
Scotland during the Ulster Plantation of the 1600's where they were
transplanted to the Irish counties of Antrim, Monaghan, and Down
respectively. In another work by the same authors, entitled "A Guide to
Irish roots, they give a pedigree for the name which predates the 6th
century colonization of Scotland by the Irish Scotti for whom the country
was later named. In this genealogy they surmise that the name Akin is
derived from the Irish O'Eakin [O'hOGAIN], a family which descends from the
Irish Clann Tuirtre, itself a descendant of Fiach Tort, son of Colla Uais of
the Clanns of Oirghialla which were comprised of the descendants of Eochaidh
Dubhlein, son of Caibre Liffechar, son of Cormac Ulfhada and his wife
Etaine, whose ancestry goes back another forty-nine generations in Ireland
to its earliest mortal founders, the Milesians. Michael C. O'Laughlin, in
his "The Master Book of Irish Surnames" lists a number of spelling variants
including Aicken, Aiken, Aikin, Aikins, Aken, Eaken, Eakin, Eakins, Ekin,
and Eykin, which are found in Ulster and are of Scots origin. Edward
MacLysaght in his "Guide to Irish Surnames" likewise finds the name to be of
Scottish origin, adding that "some families of O'Hagan are said to have
changed their name to Aiken". According to 'The book of Ulster Surnames" by
Robert Ball, in Ireland the name is "common only in Ulster, Aiken is of
Scottish origin...The name was very common in the parish of Ballantrae in
Ayrshire and many of our Aikens may stem from there. There are many variant
spellings. It was recorded as being used interchangeably with Akins in Co.
Monaghan, Eakins in Belfast, Eakin in counties Derry and Donegal, Ekin in
Co. Donegal and Egan in Co. Down...In Co. Antrim where it is most popular,
it was found to be most concentrated in the area northwest of Ballymena in
the mid-ninteenth century." In a report furnished by the Hall of Names on
the surname of Akins it is reported that "Few areas in Britain have produced
as many notable families in world history...as the Border region of England
and Scotland. The family name Akins is included in this group...The first
record of the name Akins was found in Lanarkshire where they were seated
from very ancient times at the old barony of Akyne in that shire...The
family name Akins is believed to be descended originally from the
Strathclyde Britons. This ancient founding race of the north were a mixture
of Gaelic Celts whose original territories ranged from Lancashire in the
south, northward to the south bank of the River Clyde in Scotland...In 1246,
6 Chiefs from the Scottish side and 6 from the English side met at Carlisle
and produced a set of laws governing all of the border Clans...In 1603 the
unified English and Scottish crowns under James I dispersed these "unruly
border clans', clans which had served loyally in the defence of each side.
The unification of the government was threatened and it was imperative that
the old "border code" should be broken up. Hence the Border Clans were
banished to England, northern Scotland and to Ireland. Some were outlawed
directly to Ireland, the Colonies and the New World. Tracing its ancient
development, the name Akins was found in Lanarkshire...William Aiken held
lands in Glasgow in 1497, John Aiken was a Bailie of Stirling in 1520.
For further information on the Clan Akins, consult the Clan Akins Society's
web-site at: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/clanakins/society.html
Cook SLC
>;)
>Lesley Robertson
>
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
SilntThnkr
Beefcake pictures? Now I KNOW your not talking about me.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Thomas Cameron Adams wrote in message <88d4n2$73r$1...@news.cy-net.net>...
>The fact still remains that Akins is not a member of the Standing Council
of
>Scottish Chiefs nor recognized by the Lord Lyon as a Scottish Clan. With
>these two facts being what they are, the patrons of "things scottish" do
not
>accept or acknowledge your claim. We adhere to the established practices of
>our forebearers from scottish soil on issues such as this. Save your money
>and move to Scotland and have The Lord Lyon grant you at least a registered
>set of arms and if your pockets are deep enough you might even get Clan
>status, although I doubt it.
My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
Stephen Hamilton
> Steven Akins of that Ilk
> sja...@sonet.net
This seems to conflict with your statements on the Akins Web site,
http://www.angelfire.com/ar/clanakins/intro.html
wherein you wrote:
After more than three centuries of extinction, the Chiefship of the Clan Akins
has been revived by the present Chief, Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk, a direct
hereditary descendant of the ancestral line. Having recently assumed the
heraldic achievement belonging to the original branch of the Name as his legally
registered armorial bearings, he is the rightful Chief of the Clan Akins, as
recognized by the court of Lord Lyon, King of all Arms and Bearings of Scotland.
Clarify; are you or are you not formally recognised by Lord Lyon as the proper
chief of a proper clan? Or is this actually an unofficial society (in terms of
the above authority) which you choose to call Clan Akins and of which you assume
the role of Chieftain?
Mind you, Akins, I really have no particular quarrel with you over your work
organising and researching your extended family. But you persistantly make
claims and demands for recognition from the (greater Scottish) community
represented here on the basis that its your say-so!
Stephen Hamilton
Tiss
Mhic-Ghille-Mhuire wrote:
Believe it or not, there was another one. When it went kaput, I found all of you
darlins'
GBG
Tiss
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Stephen Hamilton wrote in message <38AA6DBF...@vol.com>...
>Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote:
>> My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
>> clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
>>
>> Steven Akins of that Ilk
>> sja...@sonet.net
>
>This seems to conflict with your statements on the Akins Web site,
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/ar/clanakins/intro.html
>
>wherein you wrote:
>
>After more than three centuries of extinction, the Chiefship of the Clan
Akins
>has been revived by the present Chief, Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk, a
direct
>hereditary descendant of the ancestral line. Having recently assumed the
>heraldic achievement belonging to the original branch of the Name as his
legally
>registered armorial bearings, he is the rightful Chief of the Clan Akins,
as
>recognized by the court of Lord Lyon, King of all Arms and Bearings of
Scotland.
>
>Clarify; are you or are you not formally recognised by Lord Lyon as the
proper
>chief of a proper clan? Or is this actually an unofficial society (in
terms of
>the above authority) which you choose to call Clan Akins and of which you
assume
>the role of Chieftain?
To clarify, according to the laws of Lyon Court, the Chief of the Clan is
that descendant of the progenitor of the Clan itself who bears as his
personal property the original undifferenced coat of arms (which I do,
having been granted the property rights to them by the federal government of
which I am a citizen), thus, according to this stipulation, that would be
myself where the Clan Akins is concerned. As to the defination of Clan, I
would refer you to the following which is a transcript of a case presented
in Lyon Court whereby the defination of Clan was legally determined, as
given in Frank Adam's book: The Clans, Septs, and Regiments of the Scottish
Highlands":
"The historical truth (as again set forth in the Ardgour evidence, see
>Mind you, Akins, I really have no particular quarrel with you over your
work
>organising and researching your extended family. But you persistantly make
>claims and demands for recognition from the (greater Scottish) community
>represented here on the basis that its your say-so!
I make no demands, you may do as you please. If I make anything it is
merely a statement of facts. Whether you choose to accept these facts or not
is entirely your peragotive.
Rev Timothy N Nurse
of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote:
<My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
<clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
Nor, it would seem, the opinion of those who know better, namely the Lord
Lyon. Seems to me the only outsider are those '..of that Ilk'.
--
-------------------------------------------
Visit my exciting new *improved* web pages at:
http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister
-------------------------------------------
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...
>In article <ONpq4.621$EO2....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Steven & Julie Akins
>of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote:
>
>
> <My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
> <clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
>
>Nor, it would seem, the opinion of those who know better, namely the Lord
>Lyon. Seems to me the only outsider are those '..of that Ilk'.
And do you honestly believe that L.L. has any jurisdiction outside of
Britain?
CandL Garrett
Cook SLC wrote in article ...
> >Or recruited by Clan Gunn!
> >;)
> >Lesley Robertson
> >
> Yeah, but the cheat w/ beefcake pictures!
> Glen Cook
<grin> OK Tiss.... we had better put the record straight or poor David
will never live it down!
Glen.... David's photos are not beefcake pictures! They are very tasteful
candid shots like you would find in any family album... it's just that...
well it is 'hot' where he lives... or... he just forgot where he put his
shirt..... or.. he was caught between shirts.... um ... er.. Tiss will
finish the explanation... Tiss! Yoohoo.... Tiss! ....... Tiss? ;-)
--
Lena G
Shawn Kilpatrick
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk wrote in message ...
No, he does not. Which gives certain self-aggrandizing charlatans the
window of opportunity they require to market their particular brand of
snake-oil to those blinded by their little shortbread-tin fantasies of a
Highland culture to which a) they do not belong, and b) never really existed
in the manner that they believe.
However, what the King of Arms does possess is the ability to instantly lend
credibility to someone who has a legitimate claim to the status that you are
so desperate to attain for yourself. Your contined rejecton of Lyon's
authority in this matter leads me to suspect that either you did petition
him with your fantastical claims at one time and were flatly rejected, or
you knew damn well from the start that you have no legitimate claim to
chieftainship, so you _have_ to denounce his office as irrelevant.
When you consider that the office of Lord Lyon, King of Arms was created by
Robert I, King of Scots, and passed down through the various permutations of
Scottish government since that time to the current bearer of that esteemed
title, his credibility certainly seems secure when held up against that of a
jumped-up pretender who granted himself a clan and a title merely to elevate
his own scial status and sense of self-worth.
SK
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Shawn Kilpatrick wrote in message <88ei1k$3ec$1...@cougar.golden.net>...
<trifling commentary snipped for lack of relevance>
>When you consider that the office of Lord Lyon, King of Arms was created by
>Robert I, King of Scots,
The present office of Lyon Court only dates back to the reign of Charles II
and the earliest entries in Lyon's Register of Arms ans Bearings date back
no earlier than 1672. My family emmigrated from Scotland in 1645 during the
Cromwellian Civil War and relocated in Ulster, Ireland, thus my immediate
family has never been under the jurisdiction of Lyon Court as established
under the Act of 1672.
Todd Campbell
I see allot of "could have" and "may haves" in your article. I view your
posts and get the same impression that others in this group do. I truly
believe that if you were a little less overwhelming with your claims and
status, the subscribers of this group would find interest in your quest and
research. I can only shake my head when I decide to browse a group
named scottish clans and a man with the surname Akins is attempting to
rewrite history using present day technology (the internet). You may have
had good intentions in the beginning but it is really a very good time for a
reality check. I cannot understand why someone who claims to be above
average in the intelligence department would be in a Scottish Clan
newsgroup proclaiming how important the surname Akins is. I look
at the FAQ for this group and see many clan surnames...Armstrong,
Carmichael, Currie, Davidson, Elliot , Stewart...and the list goes on,
I view the septs and Aikins is not listed. My conclusion as a subscriber
...delusions of grandeur. I know people with open minds can change
their views. I have seen people who you would think were not as intelligent
as yourself perform amazing tasks. The big guy works in mysterious ways.
When you realize we are all in this thing together talk to me, I have seen
enough of selfish / I'm better than you and "my I.Q. is" bullshit. I would be
embarrassed to know you represent my name Internationally as a Clan Chief,
thank goodness you are not. I give you my view, most would not, they would
discount you and the word would go through the grapevine without your knowledge
(it may have already) : )
Todd Cambuel
Rev Timothy N Nurse
of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote:
<Rev Timothy N Nurse wrote in message ...
<>In article <ONpq4.621$EO2....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Steven & Julie Akins
<>of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote:
<>
<>
<> <My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
<> <clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
<>
<>Nor, it would seem, the opinion of those who know better, namely the Lord
<>Lyon. Seems to me the only outsider are those '..of that Ilk'.
<
<
<And do you honestly believe that L.L. has any jurisdiction outside of
<Britain?
So you admit that the claim on your website that:
" [Steven Atkins].. is the rightful Chief of the Clan Akins,as recognized
by the court of Lord Lyon, King of all Arms and Bearings of Scotland."
..is, in fact, a lie?
Given that you appear to dismiss his jurisdiction here, it seems odd that
you would be keen to make that connection on your web site, does it not?
Rev Timothy N Nurse
of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote:
<Stephen Hamilton wrote in message <38AA6DBF...@vol.com>...
<>Clarify; are you or are you not formally recognised by Lord Lyon as t
<>he proper chief of a proper clan?
<
<To clarify, according to the laws of Lyon Court,
[waffle and bluff]
So that's a 'no'?
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Todd Campbell wrote in message <38AAFC87...@sympatico.ca>...
>I look
>at the FAQ for this group and see many clan surnames...Armstrong,
>Carmichael, Currie, Davidson, Elliot , Stewart...and the list goes on,
>I view the septs and Aikins is not listed. My conclusion as a subscriber
>...delusions of grandeur.
Todd,
If you base your view of the world, or even of things Scottish, on this
or any other ng, I would suggest to you that you spen a bit less time here
and try visiting some other sites. Here are a few that I can recommend to
you where my Clan is well represented along with all the others:
http://scottishculture.miningco.com/culture/scottishculture/msub4.htm
http://www.scotmall.com/clan/index.html#ORDER FORM
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/atoc/index.html
I know people with open minds can change
>their views. I have seen people who you would think were not as intelligent
>as yourself perform amazing tasks. The big guy works in mysterious ways.
>When you realize we are all in this thing together talk to me, I have seen
>enough of selfish / I'm better than you and "my I.Q. is" bullshit. I would
be
>embarrassed to know you represent my name Internationally as a Clan Chief,
>thank goodness you are not. I give you my view, most would not, they would
>discount you and the word would go through the grapevine without your
knowledge
>(it may have already) : )
The internet grapevine is a wonderful thing, is it not. Through it we have
received nearly half of all of our Clan Akins Society members, and our
strength continues to grow.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@sonet.net
>
Sean MacUisdin
> clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
>
> sja...@sonet.net
RAOTFLMFAO!!!!
My God, you sound sillier every day! Now add your Hollywood concepts of
leadership to the list of things you know nothing about! I can just
imagine you in your pointy hood and claymor rallying the ten or so
gullible hicks you've managed to coerce into playing so you can be a
'John Brown' heroic figure for the other team!
Hahahahaha - what a prat!
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"When Canada is dead and gone there'll be no more Celine Dion!" - MAC
(Mothers against Canada)
Glen Cook
Glen Cook
This actually refers to Scottish clans and FAMILIES (emphasis added).
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Glen Cook wrote in message <20000216135413...@ng-ff1.aol.com>...
Captain,
Perhaps I misread the letter l for the number 1 or something. I have
cut and pasted the URL below from off of the site itself, here it is:
It looks the same to me, so this may not access the site either, but the
site dies come up on my computer when I access their link from our web-site.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Glen Cook wrote in message <20000216135634...@ng-ff1.aol.com>...
>>http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/atoc/index.html
>
>This actually refers to Scottish clans and FAMILIES (emphasis added).
>Glen Cook
Yes, the terms "Clan" and "family" are interchangeable, they mean exactly
the same thing (reference MacLean of Ardgour vs. MacLean). Family itself is
a very vague word, as it can mean a family proper (i.e. man, wife and their
children), or it can mean an extended family (i.e. all of the descendants of
a particular ancestor, viz: grandparents, parents, children, grandchildren,
aunts, uncles and cousins), or family can mean everyone who shares a common
family name, but who may or may not be related to one another or descended
from the same ancestor. In the case of the Clan Akins, our Clan consists of
any number of families who bear some form or other of our Clan name and
share a common Scottish background, much the same as any of the other
Scottish Clans do. We do not use the term "family" unless we are referring
to a particular branch of the Clan Akins (i.e. the family of Andrew Aiken of
Glasgow, or the family of James Akin of Henrico Co., Virginia, or the family
of Archibald Akins of Cecil Co., Maryland). The usage of the term family is
much more limited as to a certain group within the larger Clan which is made
up of all of the families. The term Clan has been misused by some to refer
to a particular set of families distinguished in some way from other
families, but this misappropriation of the term has no real validity in our
language and thus any inference that the MacBugger Clan is in anyway
different from the Buggerson family is in reality absurd.
Ian Johnston
: I just discovered my biological family on my father's side are Dalrymples.
: Are they Scottish?
If they were born in Scotland, yes, just as there are Scottish Patels,
Robertsons, McGregors, Iannuccis and Kowalczyks. Similarly if they were
born in the US they are American.
Ian
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Shawn Kilpatrick wrote in message <88f8et$dcn$1...@cougar.golden.net>...
>Would this perhaps explain why your misappropriated arms appear more Irish
>in composition than Scottish, as more than a few people have noted?
Perhaps
>the reason you're so unwilling to petition Lyon is because he's not
actually
>the heraldic authority concerned in your case...
Actually there may be some historical connection between my Akins
ancestral coat-of-arms and that borne by the ancient Kings of Norway. Akins
is believe to be a name taken from the territory of Kyle Akin, a small
village on the Isle of Skye opposite Lochalsh. Kyle Akin takes its name from
the Gaelic "Caol Acain" meaning "the Strait of Hakon" as King Hakon IV of
Norway used this route to invade Scotland in 1263 A.D. The Royal Arms of
Norway consist of a red shield emblazoned with a gold lion rampant holding a
battle-axe. In my ancestral arms the achievement consists of a red shield
bearing a lion rampant in dexter and an a dexter arm in armor embowed
fesswise and grasping a battle-axe. Likewise our plant-badge, the thistle,
which became the national emblem of Scotland as a result of Hakon's
ill-fated invasion when one of his bare-foot viking warriors accidentally
stepped on a thistle during an attemp to sack a Scottish castle. Crying out
from the pain, the injured barefoot warrior alerted the castle' inhabitants
who were thus able to successfully defend it from the attack.
While the name Akins and its variants (Aiken, Eakins, etc.) is common
in Ulster, the name itself is not Irish in origin and was brought to Ireland
by Scottish colonists who came there as a part of the Ulster plantation in
the 17th century, of which my direct line was a part. I could easily have
had my Arms recorded with Ulster and Norroy Herald, who advised me that
there was nothing preventing this, but due to the enormous cost, which is
several thousands of dollars, I have declined this "honor". Had I decided to
spend my money on such a grant, I could have even gone so far as to have it
recorded with L.L. for an additional exuberant fee, but as I do not have
such large sums of money to throw around on pieces of parchment, I have
never pursued the matter beyond inquiring as to the schedule of fees.
>On another note, are you aware that your computer's clock is set several
>hours behind the time zone that you're in? I'm sure it's just an
oversight,
>but it does produce the handy side effect that your replies always appear
>first after someone posts to the NG. But I suppose nobody could be that
>desperate for attention, so I'm sure you've just failed to notice it.
Well, I am looking at my computer's clock in the bottom right-hand corner of
my screen right now and it is showing the time as being 5:38 PM which is
correct. If some different time comes up when I post this, I would think the
problem must lie elsewhere. Let us see what happens.
Glen Cook
>there was nothing preventing this, but due to the enormous cost, which is
>several thousands of dollars
Recognizing that there is no requirement for an American to register arms used
in this country, I think the cost of Irish arms is app. $2,500, isn't it?
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
David Thorpe
"Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk" <sja...@sonet.net> wrote in message
news:v6Aq4.1059$EO2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Scotland and made it an offence for any person to bear arms that had not
been properly registered. Both the Lord Lyon and his judicial function,
however, preceded that Act which was necessitated largely because Oliver
Cromwell's forces destroyed so many Scottish records during the
Parliamentarian occupation of Scotland in the mid 17th century. Nor was the
1672 Act by any means the first to legislate on the use of heraldry - see
the 1592 Act, for example. So while your lowland Lanarkshire family may
never have been in Scotland post the 1672 Act, Steven, it was in Scotland
and subject to the Lord Lyon's court and jurisdiction prior to that date.
But you knew that, didn't you?
David.
David Thorpe
>
> >> My standing as Chief of my Clan is determined by my ability to rally my
> >> clansmen, to lead them, not by the opinions of outsiders.
> >>
> >
> >http://www.angelfire.com/ar/clanakins/intro.html
> >
> >wherein you wrote:
> >
> >After more than three centuries of extinction, the Chiefship of the Clan
> Akins
> >has been revived by the present Chief, Steven Lewis Akins of that Ilk, a
> direct
> >hereditary descendant of the ancestral line. Having recently assumed the
> >heraldic achievement belonging to the original branch of the Name as his
> legally
> >registered armorial bearings, he is the rightful Chief of the Clan Akins,
> as
> Scotland.
> >
> proper
> terms of
> >the above authority) which you choose to call Clan Akins and of which you
> assume
> >the role of Chieftain?
>
> To clarify, according to the laws of Lyon Court, the Chief of the Clan is
> that descendant of the progenitor of the Clan itself who bears as his
> personal property the original undifferenced coat of arms (which I do,
> having been granted the property rights to them by the federal government
of
> which I am a citizen), thus, according to this stipulation, that would be
> myself where the Clan Akins is concerned.
Lets get the law right. Quote from George Way: "On the death of the owner
of a coat of arms, it descends to his heir, normally his eldest son, and in
turn to the next heir, and so on, for ever". So for you to satisfy the
requirements of Lord Lyon you would have to show first that the person who
originally bore the arms was either the progenitor of, or a direct
descendant of the progenitor of, the clan, and secondly that you were
entitled as a direct heir of that person to bear the undifferenced arms (and
when I say direct heir, I mean going down the line of eldest sons). Can you
do that? If not, then regardless as to what a US federal court may have
said as to your ownership of the arms, you are not entitled to bear them
under
the Lyon rules.
However, even if you're not entitled under the Lyon rules to undifferenced
arms, you can still become a clan chief, even an Akins clan chief, under the
ad hoc derbhfine rules. First of all the Lord Lyon would have to find you a
fit and proper person to bear the arms, then your status would be closely
examined to see that you are really who you say you are, then the position
would have to be advertised to see if there were any other claimants, and
then you'd have to satisfy the ad hoc derbhfine panel, consisting of at
least 9 distinguished people themselves entitled to bear Scots arms and/or
having significant Scottish residential and/or property owning
qualifications, that you were indeed a suitable candidate for Clan Chief. I
don't think that you've been through that procedure.
Now as I see it - and I've no doubt you'll correct me if I'm wrong - you've
adopted a coat of arms that you found on the gravestone of a long dead
ancestor. There's no real evidence as to whose coat of arms these were.
You haven't claimed to be a direct descendant of that ancestor under the
strict Lyon rules. As things stand, therefore, there would seem to be
little chance of your being recognised by the Lord Lyon as a clan chief. I
take it you haven't applied?
> would refer you to the following which is a transcript of a case presented
> in Lyon Court whereby the defination of Clan was legally determined, as
> given in Frank Adam's book: The Clans, Septs, and Regiments of the
Scottish
> Highlands":
(snip of extracted witness statements that are no more than, er, witness
statements)
Lets quote George Way again; "The best definition of a clan provided by a
heraldic authority is contained in Nisbet's 'System of Heraldry' published
in 1722: 'A social group consisting of an aggregate of distinct erected (??)
families actually descended, or accepting themselves as descendants of a
common ancestor, and which has been received by the Sovereign through its
supreme Oficer of Honour, the Lord Lyon, as an honourable community whereof
all the members on establishing right to or receiving fresh grants of
personal hereditary nobility will be awarded arms...........'" Not,
frankly, my definition of a clan, but unlike you, Steven, I don't seek to
define a clan in heraldic terms. In any event, if the Akins family can show
that they have been duly received by the Sovereign, etc, you may go quite
some way to showing that, in heraldic terms at least, you are a clan. But
you can't.
>
> >Mind you, Akins, I really have no particular quarrel with you over your
> work
> >organising and researching your extended family. But you persistantly
make
> >claims and demands for recognition from the (greater Scottish) community
> >represented here on the basis that its your say-so!
>
>
> I make no demands, you may do as you please. If I make anything it is
> merely a statement of facts.
Unfortunately, not so. You apparently say on your web-site: "Having
recently assumed the heraldic achievement belonging to the original branch
of the Name as his legally registered armorial bearings, he is the rightful
Chief of the Clan Akins, as recognized by the court of Lord Lyon, King of
all Arms and Bearings of
Scotland." Fact: You can't show that the heraldic achievement to which you
lay claim belongs to the original branch of the name. Fact: Neither your
chiefdom nor your clan have been recognised by the court of Lord Lyon.
David.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
Glen Cook wrote in message <20000216185342...@ng-cb1.aol.com>...
I forget what the amount was, it has been several years ago and it may have
gone up since I enquired. Tell you what, Glen, why don't you take up a
collection from all of the disgruntled members of this ng who are bothered
by my using my arms withou having registered them and when you have gathered
the necessary sum I will allow you to act as my attorney in the matter and
get Norroy and Ulster to send you the paperwork.
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
David Thorpe wrote in message ...
>The 1672 Act established the Public Register of all Arms and Bearings in
>Scotland and made it an offence for any person to bear arms that had not
>been properly registered. Both the Lord Lyon and his judicial function,
>however, preceded that Act which was necessitated largely because Oliver
>Cromwell's forces destroyed so many Scottish records during the
>Parliamentarian occupation of Scotland in the mid 17th century. Nor was
the
>1672 Act by any means the first to legislate on the use of heraldry - see
>the 1592 Act, for example. So while your lowland Lanarkshire family may
>never have been in Scotland post the 1672 Act, Steven, it was in Scotland
>and subject to the Lord Lyon's court and jurisdiction prior to that date.
>But you knew that, didn't you?
Yes, David, I am aware of that. Tell you what, last I heard the old
register, the "Liber Insignatorum" was on one of Cromwell's ships that went
down off Berwick-on-Tweed. Why don't you be a good lad and fetch it for me
so I can settle all this nonesense about grants of arms and all that bit,
eh?
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
John wrote in message <#tp99eOe$GA.315@cpmsnbbsa03>...
>
>Steven wrote
><snip>
>> Actually there may be some historical connection between my Akins
>> ancestral coat-of-arms and that borne by the ancient Kings of Norway.
>Akins
>> is believe to be a name taken from the territory of Kyle Akin, a small
>> village on the Isle of Skye opposite Lochalsh.
>
Lanarkshire?
>Seems just yesterday you were berating the Grant Clan name for having Norse
>beginings!
I have no genealogical information that traces my family to Skye, however
Akins is considered by several authorities on the history and origin of
surnames to mean a "dweller near Akin, a place in Scotland named after King
Hakon of Norway" (See Dictionary of American Family Names by Elsdon D.
Smith, also The Encyclopedia of American Family Names by H. Amanda Robb and
Andrew Chesler). The earliest record in Scotland for my name is that of a
"John of Akyne" who was a Scottish merchant that in 1405 petitioned the
Court for the return of his ship and goods that had been illegally seized in
England (Black, Surnames of Scotland). You are mistaken in what you are
saying about the name Grant, I said that it was of Norman origin.
>> Kyle Akin takes its name from
>> the Gaelic "Caol Acain" meaning "the Strait of Hakon" as King Hakon IV of
>> Norway used this route to invade Scotland in 1263 A.D. The Royal Arms of
>> Norway consist of a red shield emblazoned with a gold lion rampant
holding
>a
>> battle-axe. In my ancestral arms the achievement consists of a red shield
>> bearing a lion rampant in dexter and an a dexter arm in armor embowed
>> fesswise and grasping a battle-axe. Likewise our plant-badge, the
thistle,
>> which became the national emblem of Scotland as a result of Hakon's
>> ill-fated invasion when one of his bare-foot viking warriors accidentally
>> stepped on a thistle during an attemp to sack a Scottish castle. Crying
>out
>> from the pain, the injured barefoot warrior alerted the castle'
>inhabitants
>> who were thus able to successfully defend it from the attack.
>Am I correct in reading your claim to ancestry of the King Hakon,
No, as usual you have misinterpreted what I am saying.
> or is it
>that you are claiming the connection to the place name believed to have
been
>taken from his name?
That is more like it. The place itself, not the man, however I did point out
that there is some similarity between my Arms and those borne by the
Norwegian Kings. It may well be coincidental, but it may be something more
than mere coincidence, no one can say for certain.
>Remember the legions of King Hakon IV visited the
>middle east, as there is a settlement there that was Nordic as well.
I know almost nothing regarding the various Kings of Norway named Hakon, as
I do not believe there to be any descent from them. You seem to be
stretching things again, John.
> The
>name escapes me right now, but I am sure that someone on this group will be
>able to fill in the details.
>
>Steven, your arguments are absurd to say the least. You denounce the
>Highland Clan System and claim that it extends to the Lowlands. You
>denounce the use of the Word Clan, but use works specific to the Highland
>Clans when it suits your argument.
Clan a word taken from the Gaelic language, it is from Clann, meaning
"children, offspring, descendants". In the sense that the word is of Gaelic
origin, it's origins began in the highlands, but in Scottish usage it was
used to describe both lowland as well as highland family groups. There was
even an act of Parliament which required all residents of Scotland to become
"clannit men" and there are numerous references to the "clannis of the
borders" in Scottish historical records. I have never denounced the Clan
system, I merely denounce those who wish to reserve the term for specific
families of Highland origin when it is clear that historically this was not
the intended use of the word.
>In a latter post, you claim that the Lord Lyon has no power over your clan,
>or its arms because it is an American invention!
Here again you have demonstrated your alarming proclivity for making false
statements in regard to what others say or write. I have never made such a
statement. What I said was that the Lord Lyon has no jurisdiction in this
matter because my family left Scotland in 1645 and his register of Arms was
not even begun until 1672, thus we were outside of his jurisdiction well
before he had any authority to impose. I said that since 1776 my family have
been American citizens (we actually arrived in 1729 as colonists), and that
is further reason why L.L. has no authority in the matter. I never said that
my clan, my family or my arms were an "America invention" as you put it.
That statement is entirely original to you.
>Why are you bothering to
>find recognition along side the clans?
I haven't gone to any bother over this. Some people accept it, others like
yourself seem reluctant to do so. All I have done was to explain my position
when I have been asked about it, I have never sought your approval, but I
have gone to a bit of trouble to straighten you out where you have said
things that were incorrect.
>We don't find your Scottish Ancestry
>lacking! (at least I don't). What is absurd is you employing the works of
>Scots that you in one breath attempt to discredit, and in the next to
>buttress your arguments.
I employed the works of Scottish authors to show you what they had to say in
regard to certain arguments you have initiated, I do not recall having ever
discredited any authors that I have ever cited.
>As for the Lord Lyon having a legal stake in this, I would venture that
they
>are recognized by the world body as the legal resource in this matter. Now
>like you say you can claim any American arms you wish.
What do you mean, "like I say" I have never said that I could claim any
American arms that I wished. This is sheer fabrication on your part. The
only arms I have ever claimed are those which have historically been borne
by my family as their arms. My McCorkle ancestors also bore arms, but I make
no pretention of claiming those as I do not bear their name and I am not a
member of that Clan.
> But, it is another
>legal matter to claim them to be Scottish. Specifically if you reference
>recognition by the Lord Lyon.
I don't believe I have ever put any particular nationality on my arms, as
coats of arms are not national property, but are the private property of
those who bear them regardless of in which country they live. Likewise, I
have always argued that the geographic boundaries of Scotland and their
associated political system are in no way the boundaries or government of
Scottish ethnicity or culture. Remember, The Scots existed long before they
ever went to Scotland and named that country after themselves, and they were
still Scots who left that country behind in the search for bigger and better
things. Scotland is a place, there is nothing about it which creates or
exudes the culture of the people for whom it was named, that culture came
there with the people and it followed them when they moved on. Whatever the
geographic or political boundaries are of the country which bears the name
of the Scots has nothing to do with the Scots themselves, except for the
minority of the Scottish community which still remains there. Remember,
there are twice as many Scots in America as there are in that little country
to the north of England. How many more Scots are there in other parts of the
world? As you can see, Scotland the country, and its laws, rules and
regulations, has very little to do with the majority of the Scottish people.